From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #500 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Friday, March 17 2000 Volume 01 : Number 500 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses -       Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses -       Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses -       Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses -       Re: MtMan-List: Wanted Book -       MtMan-List: New Web Page -       Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses -       Re: MtMan-List: Leather Knee Breeches -       Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses -       MtMan-List: museums -       Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses -       Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses -       MtMan-List: knee pants and other clothing -       Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses -       MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan. -       Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan. -       Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan. -       Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan. -       RE: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan. -       Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan. -       Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan. -       MtMan-List: Fwd: What did the mountaineer greet his buckskin buddy with, this day, 1812? -       Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan. -       Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 01:00:38 -0600 From: jc60714@navix.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses Washtahay- At 12:31 AM 3/17/00 EST, you wrote: >The sinew was used for the declaration Pardon my ignorance, what is the "declaration"? >and the body was >sewn with a thong. A running stitch down the side and a whip stitched over >the shoulder. The dress is sewn in side out so none of the stitches show on >the out side. They look as Thu they are sewn with sinew but they are not. If >Jill was here she could give you more in foe on it. Interesting... of all of the 100 or so pre-reservation dresses I've examined, none have been sewn with thongs using a running stitch. All were either sewn with a thread or sinew, or tied. Where did you see this dress? How many specimens like this have you seen? Tribal affiliation? Am wondering if it was a local fad or tribal style. >Cliff there are ways to make the two hide dress and use three hides. Not all >women back then were as short as Jill. What do you think is under all those >bead across the bust of a lot of those dress? The seem. The two hide is >really the name for the stile of dress not the number of hides it took the >make every one of those dress. People and deer are the same now as back then >they come in different sizes. Stylistically, there are clear differences between the two. The two skin dress is just that, two hides joined, usually with the tail-end at the neck. The three skin dress appears to have resulted out of someone sewing together a skirt and shirt (made rather like a war shirt-a hide folded at the shoulders and tied on the sides). The sewing societies of some tribes have stories about the origin of this. I've never seen a two skin dress made by piecing together hides-the style tended to be prevalent in areas where the hides were large enough to be used. One idea to consider. At least one company-Moscow Hide and Fur-has deer and elk rawhide in sizes big enough that when tanned you could easily get a two skin dress for a fairly tall woman. Buy the hides, brain tan them, and make the dress. Its been a while, but IIRC I used two 12 foot hides to make a dress for a girlfriend who stood about 6'. LongWalker c. du B. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 04:10:11 EST From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses Long waker Gust tryin to see if ya can get my hair up. no go on this one my friend. If you made a dress out of two 12 square foot hides for a 6 ft. women it would not even come to her knees. Three of the dresses are in the Idaho State University museum one is the olds one collected in the Cody museum. All of them were sewn with thong but not all had the whip stitch at the shoulder. As late as 1860 dress were put to gather this way. If you have do so much research on this my I sagest you take a look at the book of buckskinning 5 at Cathy Smith article on Fur Trade Indian Dress Just for starters. She Is another women that has done a great deal of research on the subject. Another would be that book Cliff was looking for. We are right in the middle of remolding the house and my library is all packed away or would give you lines and page numbers. And if I were you I would not be a tellin Jill that her five brain tan dress that she has spent years researching are all wrong she'll have your hair and more. Your brakin up the wrong tree here my friend. Crazy Cyot - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 06:27:22 -0500 From: tipis@mediaone.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses When going to any of these museums be care full, most of them are after the fur trade era and way into the last part of the 19th and early 20th century. But they are a wonder to look at. Linda LivingInThePast@aol.com wrote: > Bill mentioned Woolarock and Gilchrist, and while you're in that area, for > goodness sakes dont miss the Davis Arms Museum in Claremore, OK. It'll make > you drool out whats left after the other two. Barney > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 06:33:18 -0500 From: tipis@mediaone.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses Having restored and conserved several dress for a few museums and private collections, "we" may have a problem. The dresses I worked on did not show the use of "thong" in piecing them together. The use of heavy sinew was of great use. One I restored was a 3 piece and the only thongs were short strips at the side. Hard to describe on the net how it was placed. Linda GazeingCyot@cs.com wrote: > Hello in the camp > It seems we have a difference of opinion here. All I can say Linda believe > me; Jill and I have done an a lot of research on Indian women's dress. Jill > much more then I beings how I'm the one who wares the pants around here > (after she tells me witch pare to put on). We have had the opportunity to > handle museum peace. The sinew was used for the declaration and the body was > sewn with a thong. A running stitch down the side and a whip stitched over > the shoulder. The dress is sewn in side out so none of the stitches show on > the out side. They look as Thu they are sewn with sinew but they are not. If > Jill was here she could give you more in foe on it. > Cliff there are ways to make the two hide dress and use three hides. Not all > women back then were as short as Jill. What do you think is under all those > bead across the bust of a lot of those dress? The seem. The two hide is > really the name for the stile of dress not the number of hides it took the > make every one of those dress. People and deer are the same now as back then > they come in different sizes. > See ya on the trail > Crazy Cyot > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:25:01 -0500 From: "Dennis Earp" <96mfg@hspower.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wanted Book Northwoods, Keep me in mind also if you ever run into either of these books. I've been looking for both for over three years now and have found several other out-of-print, hard to find books, but these two seem very hard to locate. I've also talked to Shumway a few times and he always seems to have good intentions, but never gets anything reprinted. Dennis Earp >Just this spring I got Rifles of Colonial America >1&2, signed by Shumway from him and several other hard to find titles. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:49:26 -0500 From: "D Miles" Subject: MtMan-List: New Web Page Hello and pardon the intrusion...Due to repeated request and threats I am now doing folding knives for your pocket or pouch. They may be seen at the direct link below or you can get there from my main site... http://www.bright.net/~deforge1/Folders.html Thanks D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 07:25:42 -0800 From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses Well, that's sometimes true. But at Woolarock each item is dated - even the Miller paintings. At the Gilcrease, you can find both - dated and undated. And both places have plenty that fit the fur trade. At Cody, since the guy that wrecked the Cow Boy Museum in OKC has taken over, who knows what that will turn into. Last time I was there it was beginning to resemble a show of modern art done by his favored Indian cronies. Just like he did at OKC. - -----Original Message----- From: tipis@mediaone.net To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Friday, March 17, 2000 3:27 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses >When going to any of these museums be care full, most of them are after the fur >trade era and way into the last part of the 19th and early 20th century. But >they are a wonder to look at. > >Linda > >LivingInThePast@aol.com wrote: > >> Bill mentioned Woolarock and Gilchrist, and while you're in that area, for >> goodness sakes dont miss the Davis Arms Museum in Claremore, OK. It'll make >> you drool out whats left after the other two. Barney >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:21:24 -0600 From: "John McKee" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leather Knee Breeches This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BF8FE9.C8D7C8C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That's what I do for a living. Contact me off list. JMc ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Douglas Hepner=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 9:23 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Leather Knee Breeches Who makes good quality leather knee breeches for "hard to fit" people? = I'm not "Big and Tall" but "Short and Fat". Any help would be greatly = appreciated. YMOS "Dull Hawk" - ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BF8FE9.C8D7C8C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
That's what I do for a = living.=20 Contact me off list. JMc
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Douglas Hepner
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 = 9:23=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Leather = Knee=20 Breeches

Who makes good = quality leather knee=20 breeches for "hard to fit" people? I'm not "Big and Tall" but "Short = and Fat".=20 Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 
YMOS
"Dull=20 Hawk"
- ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BF8FE9.C8D7C8C0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 07:28:55 -0800 From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses This is where things sometimes go awry. We each speak from our own experiences, knowing what we know because of what we've seen. That often precludes accepting what someone else has seen and knows, which can be very different. I have see dresses done both ways. Held them in my hands (a press pass can work wonders with curators) Assessed them with my own eyes - then decided I didn't want to wear one. - -----Original Message----- From: tipis@mediaone.net To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Friday, March 17, 2000 3:35 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses >Having restored and conserved several dress for a few museums and private >collections, "we" may have a problem. The dresses I worked on did not show the >use of "thong" in piecing them together. The use of heavy sinew was of great >use. One I restored was a 3 piece and the only thongs were short strips at the >side. Hard to describe on the net how it was placed. > >Linda > >GazeingCyot@cs.com wrote: > >> Hello in the camp >> It seems we have a difference of opinion here. All I can say Linda believe >> me; Jill and I have done an a lot of research on Indian women's dress. Jill >> much more then I beings how I'm the one who wares the pants around here >> (after she tells me witch pare to put on). We have had the opportunity to >> handle museum peace. The sinew was used for the declaration and the body was >> sewn with a thong. A running stitch down the side and a whip stitched over >> the shoulder. The dress is sewn in side out so none of the stitches show on >> the out side. They look as Thu they are sewn with sinew but they are not. If >> Jill was here she could give you more in foe on it. >> Cliff there are ways to make the two hide dress and use three hides. Not all >> women back then were as short as Jill. What do you think is under all those >> bead across the bust of a lot of those dress? The seem. The two hide is >> really the name for the stile of dress not the number of hides it took the >> make every one of those dress. People and deer are the same now as back then >> they come in different sizes. >> See ya on the trail >> Crazy Cyot >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:17:39 -0600 From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: museums I would like to second what Barney said about the Davis gun museum in Claremore, Oklahoma. It is certainly one of the finest gun museums anywhere. Not only is the collection large and varied, I like it because of the way the guns are displayed. All are displayed chronologically, very early to modern. You can find a couple cases with examples of the period you are interested in. And every gun is shown with information about firing mechanism [which answers a lot of questions about "did they have a such&such style lock back then?", to bore and twist and sights. You can do more research in an afternoon there than years elsewhere. And the library has, reputedly, the largest collection of firearms related reference books, old and new, anywhere. And the curator, if he is still there, it has been many years since I met him, is one of the nicest, most accommodating and knowledgeable people you might ever have the opportunity of meeting. His name is Good or Goode, if I reccolect rightly. Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:58:57 -0600 From: jc60714@navix.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses Washtahay- At 04:10 AM 3/17/00 EST, you wrote: >Long waker Gust tryin to see if ya can get my hair up. no go on this one my >friend. Last time I checked, I seemed to have no problem using words to piss someone off-I'm sure had that been my goal I would have managed to do so! I was pointing out that I am unfamiliar with any dresses sewn with a leather thong, trying to figure out where you had run across such items, stating a difference of opinion regarding evolution of style, and providing the basis for my opinions. I was also trying to provide an option to someone trying to locate hides of a size to make a dress. >If you made a dress out of two 12 square foot hides for a 6 ft. women it >would not even come to her knees. Strangely enough, it was more than long enough... Shoulder to knee on this woman was 4'4", her measurements were around 36-24-37; two twelve foot hides were more than adequate. (I keep notes of measurements of hides used and measurements of the person the dress is for directly in my copy of Fecteau's book, it makes it handy when planning a new dress for someone.) >Three of the dresses are in the Idaho State >University museum one is the olds one collected in the Cody museum. All of >them were sewn with thong but not all had the whip stitch at the shoulder. As >late as 1860 dress were put to gather this way. As I said, I have never seen a pre-reservation dress sewn with a thong. The only pre-res dress I have on hand right now is a side-seam, the seam is sewn with rather fine sinew from armhole to the bottom, and across the shoulder. Probably not a good example. >If you have do so much >research on this my I sagest you take a look at the book of buckskinning 5 at >Cathy Smith article on Fur Trade Indian Dress Just for starters. She Is >another women that has done a great deal of research on the subject. Another >would be that book Cliff was looking for. Don't have Book of Buckskinning V (loaned it to some "good hearted soul" and haven't seen it since), but I recall no mention of sewing with leather thongs. Per Fecteau's "Primitive Indian Dresses" p. 24: "Indian garments were laced with leather thongs or sewed with sinew or plant fibers. Early forms of joining garments together can be found by looking at old leggins and men's shirts. Women's dresses were also made this way. Leather strings were passed through holes in dress edges and tied together at the seams. "As sewing needles were not yet in existence, awls were used to puncture holes in leather so that fine points of sinew thread or vegetable fibers such as nettles, yuccas, or milkweed could be passed through and pulled tight. Awls were made of bone, horn, or thorns as from the Buffalo Berry bush. Later, steel or nail awls were acquired from trades with the white man. "Animal tendons from along leg bones and back bones under the shoulder blade were the main material used to sew garments together. While still moist, tendons were cleaned of natural glues by scraping with a flint stone or sharp bone. It was rubbed between the hands to separate the fibers. These fibers were then rubbed against the thigh which twisted them into threads. Whole pieces of sinew could be left to dry and then hammered and softened until the fibers could be pulled apart. For dresses, the running stitch and whip stitch were most used in sewing." In other words, the only use of leather thongs mentioned was the two hole tie, as used on leggings, war shirts, etc. > And if I were you I would not be a tellin Jill that her >five brain tan dress that she has spent years researching are all wrong >she'll have your hair and more. Am not saying its "all wrong". I said I was unaware of any precedent in the pre-res days, and remain so. The closest I can come to a pieced together dress, and use of a running stitch done with a leather thong, is a dress in the collection of the American Museum of Natural History (I think its shown in one of Hanson's Sketchbooks). The dress has a yoke that is laced on, using a running stitch of thong-but the side seams are sewn-with sinew,IIRC-and the main hides were large enough to have made the dress without the yoke. LongWalker c. du B. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:48:31 -0700 From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses Actually on many two piece dresses, sinew was used at the shoulder seam and leather thong at the overlap at the top. Of course there are exceptions. Brain tan strips of leather are quite strong and even more when twisted. Joe - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 10:52:15 -0500 From: "John Hunt" Subject: MtMan-List: knee pants and other clothing Doug Hepner I too am built like a sports car, low and wide. Try stitchers cabin here in ohio. They are reasonable priced and quality made. Tbmslm@aol.com Will custom make to your size. John (BIG JOHN) Hunt Longhunter Mountainman southwest Ohio - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:20:38 PST From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses Thanks to all that have contributed information to the Primitive Indian Dresses thread, I will compile all the information presented and use what I can. Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 - --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:25:58 PST From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan. I am interested in the idea of purchasing rawhide that is large enough to be of use in making a dress, and brain tanning it. Has anyone bought hides like those described, and what is the process for tanning those hides. Are they ready to brain, or do they require some more work??? C ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 10:50:41 -0700 From: Vic Barkin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan. I've never tried this, but I would be reasonably sure you still would have to scrape off the epidermis and maybe even re-flesh. I've also not heard of deer or elk rawhide being sold commercially and also have never talked to anyone who has braintanned a beef. Sounds like slightly less work since you don't have to dehair, but alot more expensive since you usually can get green hides either cheap or free from butchers and those that process wild game usually would love to have someone help them skin. besides, if you skin it you have control over the quality. scores and cuts can be eliminated. Vic .>I am interested in the idea of purchasing rawhide that is large enough to be >of use in making a dress, and brain tanning it. Has anyone bought hides >like those described, and what is the process for tanning those hides. Are >they ready to brain, or do they require some more work??? >C >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin AMM #1537 Three Rivers Party - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:10:00 -0800 From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan. Commercial in general will not work for subsequent brain tanning. When it is processed into rawhide they use chemicals that remain in it and will thwart your efforts of braining. - -----Original Message----- From: Vic Barkin To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Friday, March 17, 2000 9:53 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan. >I've never tried this, but I would be reasonably sure you still would have >to scrape off the epidermis and maybe even re-flesh. I've also not heard of >deer or elk rawhide being sold commercially and also have never talked to >anyone who has braintanned a beef. Sounds like slightly less work since you >don't have to dehair, but alot more expensive since you usually can get >green hides either cheap or free from butchers and those that process wild >game usually would love to have someone help them skin. besides, if you >skin it you have control over the quality. scores and cuts can be >eliminated. > >Vic > >.>I am interested in the idea of purchasing rawhide that is large enough to be >>of use in making a dress, and brain tanning it. Has anyone bought hides >>like those described, and what is the process for tanning those hides. Are >>they ready to brain, or do they require some more work??? >>C >>______________________________________________________ >>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin >AMM #1537 >Three Rivers Party > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:16:34 EST From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan. Take a look at this site http://www.braintan.com/toc.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:39:47 -0700 From: louis.l.sickler@lmco.com Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan. Chance, I have done this a couple of times. I soaked them in water until thoroughly saturated. Strung them up on my frame and scraped as for any hide. They were pretty clean, but I wanted to make sure all grain &c was removed. I then brained and softened as usual. Worked out great. A LOT less work than scraping all the hair off. I like to tan hides I have harvested, but this is a good, quick alternative. Hope this helps. Lou Colorado Territory > ----Original Message----- > From: Chance Tiffie [SMTP:bossloper@hotmail.com] > Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 9:26 AM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan. > > I am interested in the idea of purchasing rawhide that is large enough to > be > of use in making a dress, and brain tanning it. Has anyone bought hides > like those described, and what is the process for tanning those hides. > Are > they ready to brain, or do they require some more work??? > C > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:59:35 -0700 From: Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan. Chance, You can do as Louis says for deer or elk, but you cannot and will not be successful with beef. So get deer or elk and have fun. Rick - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:17:40 PST From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan. I had no intentions of trying this on a beef hide, only the deer or elk as mentioned. Seems it would be the only way I can get large enough hides for the task at hand. Thanks for the advice. Cliff ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:33:23 EST From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: What did the mountaineer greet his buckskin buddy with, this day, 1812? - --part1_b3.1a7e85b.2603f093_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - --part1_b3.1a7e85b.2603f093_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-za05.mx.aol.com (rly-za05.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.101]) by air-za02.mail.aol.com (v70.19) with ESMTP; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:14:27 -0500 Received: from alr.primarycolor.com (ns1.primarycolor.com [206.135.156.7]) by rly-za05.mx.aol.com (v70.19) with ESMTP; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:14:06 -0500 Received: from primarycolor.com (dhcp144.primarycolor.com [206.135.156.144] (may be forged)) by alr.primarycolor.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA16296 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 10:12:15 -0800 Message-ID: <38D275EC.46CDEBB1@primarycolor.com> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 10:14:37 -0800 From: JW Stephens Organization: Primary Color Systems, Irvine X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: What did the mountaineer greet his buckskin buddy with, this day, 1812? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Erin go WAUGH!!" B'st'rd - -- John Stephens, Primary Color, Irvine, CA 949-862-1751 - --part1_b3.1a7e85b.2603f093_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:49:51 -0500 From: tipis@mediaone.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan. Buy the brain tanned hides.....you will be happier and better off...do not get cow rawhide if you do decide to do your own. Linda Holley Chance Tiffie wrote: > I am interested in the idea of purchasing rawhide that is large enough to be > of use in making a dress, and brain tanning it. Has anyone bought hides > like those described, and what is the process for tanning those hides. Are > they ready to brain, or do they require some more work??? > C > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:28:42 -0500 From: tipis@mediaone.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive Indian Dresses The problem is one of perception and blindness. Do we know what each other is talking about when we describe or use the words "lacing"? To me is means large quarter inch thongs making big holes and it does show. Doing some more research and digging out the hundreds of pictures and and many articles/books on the the subject or part, here is what I came up with. There is a great difference in regional materials for dresses when it comes to putting the dress or even shirts together. When you look at the "the Cheyennes" by Grinnel you have the "dresses being SEWN together by leather strings that pass through holes in the edges of the front and back pieces of the dress. 1850 to1860. In modern times all clothing is neatly sewn at the seams with sinew thread". The key here is the use of the term STRING. When I think of string I think or see very small diameter material and not heavy lace for sewing. According to Mary Jane Schnieder and her article on "A Plateau Dress" "The Yakima dress is also made from two skins with the neck edges folded down. All the seams on the Missouri Historical Society dress are sewn with leather strips instead of sinew". Strips is the word here that makes me think of small size. Having seen this dress they are very small THIN strips that can easily be pushed or put threw a bone size awl hole. Also remember that many of these early dresses were made from Mountain sheep skin and do not necessarily have the thickness of an elk or big deer. In Kathy Smiths' article in Buckskinner 5, she does say "The 3 hide dress was formed from three large hides." She does not really state how the two hides that form the front and back are sewn together. But she does say that smaller attachments are "often sewn almost invisibly with sinew, while the yoke was attached to the body with fine buckskin lacing using a visible running stitch." This is the only real lacing besides the yoke of a two piece dress that is very visible. I have seen this dress and talked to Kathy and it is a very fine stitching using very thin buckskin and give the illusion of thread. This goes along with what I have seen in many museums that have Sioux and Southern Plains material. The sewing is so fine you have trouble telling it from thread if a good leather is used. Good brain tan can be cut in such a way that it makes a strong thread or string. I have used this method but do not call it lacing. Alfred L. Kroeber, in his book, The Arapaho, describes dress and other articles put together with sinew and awls. Nez Perce Dress: A Study In Culture Change by Stephen Shawley is one of the best sources for Plateau culture material. "Dresses as well as shirts were formed from well made skins which were not smoked. The hind regions of the hides were placed together with the hair side always facing inward. the top part to the hindquarter were removed only for the man's shirt. .......The shoulder seam for the woman's dress was sewn next to the edged with the seam allowances usually turned inward. The legs of the hides formed partially open sleeves. The neck opening were closed somewhat with the addition of four hide thongs secured to the edge near where the base of the neck fit the opening.........The side seams for both the woman's dress and man's shirt were sewn using leather thongs and the running stitch from near the hem to just below the under arm. A bone needle may be used in this instance, although the awl was also well suited. Both sides were simultaneously punched for lacing. The seam allowances were fringed. The sleeve region, being as long as the animal hide was wide, was left open and fringed on the edges". Again how thick a "lace" are we talking or is it "lace" we are talking about or very fine leather that resembles string or a heavy thread that can be easily sewn threw leather and not be seen? And you guys thought you could argue the finer points of tinning copper pots, what gun caliber and patching material to use, and where is the best place to get a cold beer. Linda Holley - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #500 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.