From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #631 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Saturday, September 23 2000 Volume 01 : Number 631 In this issue: -       Re: Fw: Fw: MtMan-List: white women! (con't) -       MtMan-List: Sashes -       Re: MtMan-List: Sashes -       Re: MtMan-List: Sashes -       Re: MtMan-List: Sashes -       MtMan-List: sashes -       Re: MtMan-List: Sashes -       Re: MtMan-List: Sashes -       Re: MtMan-List: sashes garters and belts -       Re: MtMan-List: sashes garters and belts -       Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) -       Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) -       Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) -       Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) -       MtMan-List: sash and garters -       MtMan-List: white women and women in fure trd. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 22:31:46 -0600 From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: MtMan-List: white women! (con't) Lanney, I agree. Today, we boast about a week long horse ride or a canoe trip that lasts 10 days, but it would be hard to match 2 1/2 or 3 months riding side saddle, living in leaky tents and having diarrhia from buffalo country clear to Oregon! mike. Ratcliff wrote: > Mike > I can concur with your position, in that most of the missionary women most likely took little or no real part of the rendezvous. The little reading I have done on the subject seems to indicate that Narcissa Whitman was very friendly and outgoing. Little is said about the others, except that some were scandalized by what they saw. We can't withhold our admiration of their grit. Even in the context of a "closed" group heading west for the purpose of supporting their husbands' job of saving souls, these women had enough bark on to make journey that few enough modern men would dare make. > YMOS > Lanney > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Moore" > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 10:21 AM > Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: white women! (con't) > > > Lanney, > > I recently picked up a copy of Clifford Drury's two books, "The Mountains We > > Have Crossed" and "Where Wagons Could Go" for my library. (He has put out one > > other which I am trying to find.) They are the letters and dairies of these women. > > Very little is known of the ladies you mention who went west in 1840, even their > > first names. There are references (I think two very short mentions), one that they > > were going west with the caravans and one that they picked up their guide and left) > > for that year's rendezvous, but probably only used it as a stopping place. The missioniaries > > didn't like the scene they found there and usually once they make connections to go > > further westward, did. Mr. Gowans is a well respected writer and I bow to him. But, > > I don't feel that they were a major part of the scene that year, by this time (even > > if it was the smallest and last of the renedzvous), the trappers and company men > > had found that the shine had worn off these "white women". The couples going > > west for saving the savages had only one thing on their minds and beside being nice > > to who ever helped them, basicly stayed to themselves. In fact, they chalked > > up to divine providience helping them through many trials- not to how others had > > helped them or the many other people who went through the same thing and lived. > > I think the last gathering lasted what- three or four days? And besides being a resting > > place, wasn't that big of deal to them or to me that they showed up there. > > This may sound very anti-christian, my pounding of them. But even as a christian > > today, I would find being around them for any length of time laborious. They were > > a different stripe, and even though I belong to the same church (Presbyterian) as > > the majority of them, I don't think I would like them. Probably like the rest of you, > > these green horns (and they were!) would only receive enough notice to keep them from > > injuring themselves or anyone around them and that would be about it. They were a pain > > in the neck to the caravans by not wanting to travel on the Sabbath, didn't want stand > > guard at night (in fact, they paid others to do it), had trouble with packing and un packing > > every day and had to hire men to do it for them all the way west. > > Sorry for rambling. I do respect Mr. Gowans and others like him. The missionaries > > in 1840 did make to the rendzvous, but they camped away from the main gathering and > > didn't stay long. So my opinion is that they don't merit mention on the list. But, just my > > opinion. > > mike. > > > > Ratcliff wrote: > > > > > Mike > > > What is your basis for stating that only 4 white women attended a rendezvous? Fred Gowan's book "Rocky Mountain Rendezvous" says that many on your list, all missionary's wives, attended the following rendezvous: > > > 1840 Mrs Harvey Clark > > > Mrs P. B. Littlejohn > > > Mrs Alvin T. Smith > > > 1839: Mrs John S Griffith > > > Mrs Asahel Munger > > > 1838 Mrs. W H Gray > > > Mary Richardson Walker (Mrs Elkanah Walker) > > > Myra Fairbanks Eells (Mrs Cushing Eells) > > > Sarah Gilbert White Smith (Mrs Asa B. Smith) > > > 1836 Narcissa Whitman (Mrs Marcus Whitman) > > > Eliza Spaulding (Mrs Henry Spaulding) > > > Does Gowan's book inaccurately place these women at rendezvous, and if that is the case, were these missionaries simply traveling on their own hook, bound for Oregon? Much of Gowan's information is based on diaries of those in the rendezvous caravans and has been commonly accepted as factual. I would be very interested in your comments. > > > YMOS > > > Lanney Ratcliff > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Mike Moore" > > > To: > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 11:23 PM > > > Subject: MtMan-List: white women! (con't) > > > > > > > Sorry guys, > > > > I wrote one line which I should clarify, > > > > the ladies who came west in 1838 did go to the > > > > rendezvous too, so there were actually four that > > > > went to the "Trade Fairs" in the west (and not two). > > > > I tend to treat this form of communication different > > > > than when I put out info for other things, like articles, > > > > rescearch papers, etc... and I shouldn't. So, I'll > > > > try to proof read and think more in depth on things like > > > > this before I hit the send button. I'm surprised you guys > > > > didn't catch it and rouse me about it. > > > > mike. > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 17:46:20 -0600 From: rhamilton@pagedigital.com Subject: MtMan-List: Sashes I am needing to glean information about the 3-piece sashes (one around the waist, one around each leg just above the knee) that mountain men wore, but can not find any information in related books. Does anyone have any information they can share on this subject? - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 17:34:37 -0700 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 4:46 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Sashes > I am needing to glean information about the 3-piece sashes (one around the > waist, one around each leg just above the knee) that mountain men wore, > but can not find any information in related books. Does anyone have any > information they can share on this subject? I will go so far as to say that this was more a fashion of the French Voyagure than the Mountain Man. As much as we can depend on field sketches of artists like Miller, he does not show this fashion amongst Mountain Men. Some one out there know different? I believe that the tendency to see such worn and done at modern Rendezvous is part modern fashion (wanting to look like what some people think a mountain man looked like) and partly to hold up the lower legs of leather pants made form commercial leather which stretches much more than brain tan (which is more likely what was being used originally). Respectfully, Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 21:22:13 EDT From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes > I will go so far as to say that this was more a fashion of the French > Voyagure than the Mountain Man. > Some one out there know different? Capt, We discussed this at some length before you joined the list. Depend on how you classify "Mountain Man." By and large, the attendees of the Rendezvous were French and Indian, not white men. They too, were displaced from back East and worked the western fur trade. In addition, many Metis made their way down from Canada and co-existed in the same vicinities, especially during their buffalo hunts. A google.com search on "assumption sash" would probably yield the information sought. Books on finger weaving will yield further info. Assumption sashes later replaced by machine woven English sashes as trade goods. >As much as we can depend on field sketches > of artists like Miller, he does not show this fashion amongst Mountain Men. More correctly, he doesn't show it amongst "white" Mountain Men, whom he glorified through his paintings. Dave Kanger - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 18:43:40 -0700 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes > More correctly, he doesn't show it amongst "white" Mountain Men, whom he > glorified through his paintings. Dave, Point well taken. Since most invision themselves as the "classic" mountain man, I presumed the "glorified" mountain man of millers paintings not the vast majority of participants in that era who were not American but as you say. I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 20:07:28 -0700 From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: MtMan-List: sashes since somebody brought it up, I am in possession of a old hard wool yarn, loom woven sash of what appears to be Navajo [or some southwestern tribe] in origin can anybody tell me how far back loom woven sashes go. or in other words would it be period correct to wear if someone's persona was new Mexican influenced? thanks; Tom - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 21:27:30 -0600 From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes At 05:46 PM 09/22/2000 -0600, you wrote: >I am needing to glean information about the 3-piece sashes (one around the >waist, one around each leg just above the knee) that mountain men wore, >but can not find any information in related books. Does anyone have any >information they can share on this subject? None of the journals of Ferris, Russell, Clymer make any mention of sashes. Nor do any other compilations by Berry, Utley and others. My guess is American trappers didn't use them, as they are neither described or painted by folks that were there. Allen in Fort Hall country - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 02:45:32 EDT From: Tomactor@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes In a message dated 9/22/00 8:25:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time, allenhall@srv.net writes: > I am needing to glean information about the 3-piece sashes (one around the > >waist, one around each leg just above the knee) that mountain men wore, > >but can not find any information in related books. Does anyone have any > >information they can share on this subject? I believe these were worn mainly by the French Canadien voyageurs. They a quite common with our re-enactors at Fort Vancouver. I have heard that the garters helped to strengthen the legs, and the voyagers certainly needed strong legs. Tom Laidlaw, web coordinator for OCTA's On-line Bookstore - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 07:55:03 -0600 From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sashes garters and belts Tom, I have no evidence but I have understood that sashes were used in place of a belt in the 18th century and that garters were tied below the knee to hold up socks!. There were many styles of garters, from string to litle leather belts, they were used to keep your socks as elastic had not been invented. The sash was used by the military till late in the 19th century and now has morfed itself and is called a cumberbun. A rope to hold up your pants is a sash, they could be one of those everyday things that no one notices. I think that Mountain Men of the 1830's didn't wear socks so they didn't need garters and they used there knife belt to hold up there pants, to make this more confusing I think that braces (suspenders) came into use in the 1830's. What I am saying is this, I don't know!. YMOS Ole # 718 - ---------- >From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" >To: >Subject: MtMan-List: sashes >Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000, 9:07 PM > >since somebody brought it up, I am in possession of a old hard wool yarn, >loom woven sash of what appears to be Navajo [or some southwestern tribe] in >origin can anybody tell me how far back loom woven sashes go. or in other >words would it be period correct to wear if someone's persona was new >Mexican influenced? >thanks; Tom > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 09:29:44 -0700 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sashes garters and belts What I am saying is this, I don't > know!. > > YMOS > Ole # 718 Vell Ole, Old friend, dat makes two of us. I think I have seen references to socks being sent to "The Mountains" and of mtn Men making such so........I don't know eather for sure. Capt. L - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 10:35:33 -0700 From: "Poorboy" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) Klahowya My Friends, Having read the recent posts concerning sashes and garters, I will cast my two cents before the swine. During both the Eastern Longhunter/ F&I war periods and the Rocky Mountain Rendezvous period, finished strap/belt/shoe leather was a highly valued not easily obtained commodity. I believe research shows that woven straps and belts were more often used and documented during the EL/F&I periods. This I believe was due to the availability of raw materials to be woven, and that good leather would not have been used when an equally viable substitute was available. Woven straps were the most common amongst the early American frontier settlers, the French, the Spanish, and the Indian. In reviewing trade lists of the Rocky Mountain Rendezvous period ( On line here) I find no listings for belts or belt leather. I did find notations for shoes, boots, various horse tack, knee straps (does not indicate leather or other), and some entries for assorted buckles. It is often argued on this list that these first hand journals, trade lists, and accounts are gospel, and that the art of the period is good general reference, but subject to artistic license. Considering the known information prior to the RMR period, (the prominence of woven straps over leather during the EL/F&I period). Adding in the known prominence of woven straps among the French, Spanish, and Indian. The general lack of documented belts and belt leather during the rendezvous period. The studies that have argued that a very large percentage of the people involved in the RMR period were of mixed blood. And my opinion that shoes, horse tack, and harness were far more important uses for finished belt weight leather, especially when a viable woven alternative was available. I therefore assert that woven belts were the more common for the fur trapper of the American RMR period. Sashes were probably less common, but still present. One could further look at the fact that most knife sheaths were rawhide, not finished leather, and designed to be thrust into the belt, not hung from it. And the list of arguments could go on.... I leave this as fodder before the storm..... Again this is only my humble opinion, and I am always open to being proven wrong.....OK so I don't always take it so well, but you can still lead this old hoss to water and teach him a new trick or two. Have at it boys...YMOS PoorBoy - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 17:07:29 -0600 From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) Poorboy, Page 143 intitled "Indian Hospitality" of Alfred Jacob Miller's field drawings is showm a cross legged traper seated with his back to the artist. The traper has a knife shoved between his back and the Sash or belt? it is hard to make out what it is, however in other drawings it clearly indicates a belt. there is also a drawing showing the Booshway geting ready for a Buffalo hunt that he looks as if he is wearing garters. YMOS Ole # 718 - ---------- >From: "Poorboy" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) >Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000, 11:35 AM > >Klahowya My Friends, > >Having read the recent posts concerning sashes and garters, I will cast my >two cents before the swine. >During both the Eastern Longhunter/ F&I war periods and the Rocky Mountain >Rendezvous period, finished strap/belt/shoe leather was a highly valued not >easily obtained commodity. I believe research shows that woven straps and >belts were more often used and documented during the EL/F&I periods. This I >believe was due to the availability of raw materials to be woven, and that >good leather would not have been used when an equally viable substitute was >available. Woven straps were the most common amongst the early American >frontier settlers, the French, the Spanish, and the Indian. >In reviewing trade lists of the Rocky Mountain Rendezvous period ( On line >here) I find no listings for belts or belt leather. I did find notations >for shoes, boots, various horse tack, knee straps (does not indicate leather >or other), and some entries for assorted buckles. >It is often argued on this list that these first hand journals, trade lists, >and accounts are gospel, and that the art of the period is good general >reference, but subject to artistic license. Considering the known >information prior to the RMR period, (the prominence of woven straps over >leather during the EL/F&I period). Adding in the known prominence of woven >straps among the French, Spanish, and Indian. The general lack of >documented belts and belt leather during the rendezvous period. The studies >that have argued that a very large percentage of the people involved in the >RMR period were of mixed blood. And my opinion that shoes, horse tack, and >harness were far more important uses for finished belt weight leather, >especially when a viable woven alternative was available. I therefore >assert that woven belts were the more common for the fur trapper of the >American RMR period. Sashes were probably less common, but still present. >One could further look at the fact that most knife sheaths were rawhide, not >finished leather, and designed to be thrust into the belt, not hung from it. >And the list of arguments could go on.... > >I leave this as fodder before the storm.....sayings anyway...VBG> Again this is only my humble opinion, and I am always >open to being proven wrong.....OK so I don't always take it so well, but you >can still lead this old hoss to water and teach him a new trick or two. >Have at it boys...YMOS >PoorBoy > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 19:06:39 -0700 From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) Po Boy & Capt. Lahti, This discussion on sashes is a good one. Personally, I've never been able to wear a sash. Can't seen to make them work for me, being a gentleman of portly posture. I do wear hand woven garters though. They do a good job keeping my leggins up. Even though my leggins are braintan they seem to stretch quite a bit when they get wet. Don't know exactly how correct they are for a Rocky Mountain Fur Trapper, but it seems to me, they would have been used there, given the number of Eastern Indians, French, etc who were there. For me, it makes since that a trapper or hunter would have adopted such a item if it suited his needs. The leather belt isssue is one that is interesting. Personally, I think the 4" wide belts so often seen at rendezvous are not right. That's just my opinion. There are no documents that I have seen that show where belts were taken for trade. I think it is most likely, they used the leather that was available locally for belts. Probably buffalo was most often used. I think sometimes we have to fill in the blanks left by documentation with a common sense approach to solving problems. Pendleton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 17:23:44 -0700 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "larry pendleton" To: Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 7:06 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes (long) > Po Boy & Capt. Lahti, > This discussion on sashes is a good one. Personally, I've never been able > to wear a sash. Can't seen to make them work for me, being a gentleman of > portly posture. Brer' Pendleton, Same for me. I have a couple real nice had woven sashes, each bigger than the last. I finally had one made that would go around twice (don't think that one didn't cost a pretty penny!) but haven't worn it all that much. I have a wide belt but I agree that they were probably quit narrow whether they were of local brain tan, local pit tan (quit a bit of that went on as a cottage industry) or shipped in as a commercial product. How many leather belts are you going to go through in a few years in the mountains? It's not as though they wear out like shoe leather. I think leather belts were worn as often as sashes in the Moutains and as far as garters, they may have been woven, quilled brain tan, or leather with a buckle or a simple leather thong/whang. Hate to see those modern made ones of knitting yarn and day glow pink, red, green etc. though. Surely the sash and garter making folks could come up with more traditional/period Likely correct colors!? I wear leather straps with buckles with my leggens when I wear them over breeches and when I am "working" in them but when I want to style I wear quilled ties make by Suzie Rider. Guess I wear a wide belt so I can see it. A narrow one would disappear in the folds! Same with a narrow sash or a single wrap sash. I still think sashes and such were more of a long hunter fashion and perhaps more of a modern ideal than actual period accutrament. Still, it's like you say, much speculation. Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 21:01:05 MDT From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: sash and garters need to throw the metis side into the pot. first the garter can be used to tie around leather or cloth legs to keep them from flapping and making alot of noise and getting in the way, all so to add a little color. a lot of the sashs were make by metis women for the fur trade,a lot of the women were from assumption can. thus the name assumption sash.as first the sash was also finger woven in different colors and patterns for the trade. but soon the metis took the sash as a metis symbol. red with other colors forming a arrow design ,about 1700's or befor, to this day that sash is worn as a metis symbol. the sash was made to go around twice and ty on the left side.there are many use's for the sash by men and women. men,has a weight belt to hold guts in while your were carring heavy loads,has catch belt for livestock,extra what ever that sash would do. women ,carry babys,extra thread ,first aid binding,ect. and for a short time the sash was made longer so you could wrap around a lot of times so a small tiped arrow could not be shot into your gut if you pissed someone off in a trade.since the softest part of animal or man was the target with arrows.all so it seem to of made wide,if you didn't like wide then just wrap narrow. all so style the and now is to spreed wide. also how you tied the sash would tell if you are buffalo metis,boat,trader. the sash was worn past the fur trade era, cowboys etc. the sash is a large part of the metis cuture and i could cover a lot of paper but, lets us just say the metis were called childern of the fur trade,the sash covers into the buffalo metis of montana. late 1800,s. just a belt! a start."" hiverant metis box31222 billings,mt59101 cavalier de poney _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 21:56:19 MDT From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: white women and women in fure trd. i'm s little unsure of the early white women in fur trade, in new france there are women from euro. that were into the metis ranks early you might check some of metis site s on enternet for date and names.the fur companys find out that the men stayed on one job longer if women were there to keep the main camp going. hudson bay would used the metis camps for looking for new trade grounds, thy had their women and familys along at camp. in many familys the main camp was thier home so tradeing and hunting was life stlye. good bussss on the hudson part. later for metis freetrader camps. cavalier de poney... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #631 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.