From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #664 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Tuesday, October 31 2000 Volume 01 : Number 664 In this issue: -       RE: MtMan-List:#1676 -       RE: MtMan-List: buffalo tongue -       Re: MtMan-List: Bossloper Experiences -       Re: MtMan-List: Bossloper Experiences -       Re: MtMan-List: Capotes -       Re: MtMan-List: Capotes -       MtMan-List: Thanks for all the advice on braintanning -       Re: MtMan-List: Capotes -       MtMan-List: Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 22:32:20 -0600 -       Re: MtMan-List: Capotes -       MtMan-List: art! -       Re: MtMan-List: Influences of Alfred Jacob Miller -       MtMan-List: Wilson Price -       Re: MtMan-List: Wilson Price -       Re: MtMan-List: Wilson Price -       Re: MtMan-List: Wilson Price -       Re: MtMan-List: Wilson Price -       Re: MtMan-List:Dean Rudy -       Re: MtMan-List: Wilson Price -       Re: MtMan-List: Wilson Price -       Re: MtMan-List: Wilson Price -       MtMan-List: Large Tipis -       Re: MtMan-List: Large Tipis ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 12:23:01 -0700 From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List:#1676 Walt, what I wrote is not a "story," but a quote directly from Ann Hafen, a far better historian than I. The best part of it is that I didn''t have to rely on remembering anything. I looked it up and quoted chapter and verse, straight from the book to the list. That is how I understand the concept of documentation. Unfortunately, too many folks on this list "remember" things that just ain't so once the book gets opened. If we could all add a reference to our comments instead of just spouting opinions, comments from failed memories, this list would be a lot more attractive to those with a genuine interest in documented history. Second, you haven't defined "Metis" sufficiently for me to agree that Jean Baptiste could be classified as such. Finally, I totally agree with Allen. Jim Hardee, AMM #1676 Hi Jim, sure it is and that comes from the most famous mountain man of all Jim Bridger himself. While growing up here with his legends one particular point keeps coming to mind and that is what it is about it is all a story. History is a story. Writing about history is a story. One of the reference resources I use is Volume 1 of The American Fur Trade of the Far West. The author is Hiram Martin Chittenden. Book number ISBN 0-8032-6320-1. I think I can better describe what a Metis in our mountain country is better than I can define a Metis. I have pointed to the drawings of Alfred Miller as showing a wide mix of Metis culture in his 1837 drawings. Jean Baptiste is the result of a mixed marriage in the fur trade industry on the upper Missouri which can only make him a Metis. The fact you pointed out about him having 14 years as a trapper working the small streams does indicate a significant event. Your support of Allen's argument that the Metis did not play a significant part in the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade is debatable on the Upper Missouri which includes the Yellowstone River and the tributary the Big Horn River which turns into the Wind River curving around the south edge of the park. I hoped this Metis stuff could float into the foreground without the brain pressure of the use of the historical method. I have a degree from Montana State University-Billings 1971 and have been permitted by the State of Montana to teach Montana History. I do not consider myself a historian but rather a history buff. I have a strong interest in the hunters, traders, and trappers who worked the rivers and streams of Montana as well as other places. I will use Chittenden in the future. Walt Park City, Montana - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 12:33:03 -0700 From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: buffalo tongue Ho there camp, i have priest journal that ref. (4 carts of 2 merchances buying buffalo tongue and dipping them in molasses in reding for shipping back to the settlements) Does anyone have any thing on this. how was it cooked and how big was the buffalo tongue market. also when was baking powder first used in northern ter. going deeper into history ponyrider Hallo your camp, Ponyrider: In Volume 2 of The American Fur Trade of the Far West by Hiram Martin Chittenden ISBN 0-8032-6321-X on page 807 "The quantity of tongues annually sent down to St. Louis was immense and in the single year of 1848 reached the number of 25,000." Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 15:50:17 -0800 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bossloper Experiences This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C041BF.EF8B0BC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Jerk" is vernacular for "jerky". Since it was in the same sentence and = connected with "parched corn" as it was I though all would understand. = With the addition of a for "Grin" in place one is also to take the = passage as presented in all good natured fun rather than as a "cut" at = anyone for their timidity or lack of drive in "just doing it". My = partners know I do not consider them "jerks" nor they I, lest we would = not keep each others company. Now that that is straightened = out............. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Wynn & Gretchen Ormond=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 8:50 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Bossloper Experiences Earlier this week Capt Lahti wrote: What traveling expenses? Driving out of town and walking off into the = woods for a few days with some jerk and parched corn? Or without? And = just living off the land? Sounds like a smoke screen to me. Since no = one else commented on the good Capt=92s words am I the only who thought = that he was referring to his fellow sashayer or peregrinators as "some = jerk" when they read his post for the first time?=20 Humbly WY - ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C041BF.EF8B0BC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"Jerk" is vernacular for "jerky". Since it was in = the same=20 sentence and connected with "parched corn" as it was I though all would=20 understand. With the addition of a <G> for "Grin" in place one is = also to=20 take the passage as presented in all good natured fun rather than as a = "cut" at=20 anyone for their timidity or lack of drive in "just doing it". My = partners know=20 I do not consider them "jerks" nor they I, lest we would not keep each = others=20 company. Now that that is straightened out.............<VBG> I=20 remain.....
 
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Wynn &=20 Gretchen Ormond
Sent: Thursday, October 26, = 2000 8:50=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Bossloper=20 Experiences

Earlier this week Capt Lahti wrote:

What traveling expenses? Driving out of town and walking off into = the woods=20 for a few days with some jerk and parched corn? Or without? And just = living=20 off the land? Sounds like a smoke screen to me. <G> Since no one = else=20 commented on the good Capt=92s words am I the only who thought that he = was=20 referring to his fellow sashayer or peregrinators as "some jerk" when = they=20 read his post for the first time?

Humbly

WY

- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C041BF.EF8B0BC0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 16:03:47 -0800 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bossloper Experiences Not that I haven't stuck my foot in my mouth and said what I meant where others should not have heard it, Thanks Rick for suspecting the truth of the matter. I actually left off the "Y" on purpose and had a fleeting thought that it would read wrong but left it anyway. It is important to throw in a Grin or LOL once in a while to let folks know your state of mind. Thanks for the backup Rick. I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, October 27, 2000 10:07 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bossloper Experiences > > > I think the good captain left off the letter y from his post. I believe he > meant to say "...some jerky and parched corn...". > > On the Heely-- > Rick > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 16:07:37 -0800 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes Great in size perhaps but then we have Brothers who trod a heavier track than me and not just in mass either . I'll wait for others to advise you on how to survive a NW winter "jaunt" with some "Jerk" and some "parched corn" and then I'll let you in on my secrets. Capt. Lahti' PS. Took first place this weekend up Elk Creek in a friendly little trail walk. Gun shoots straight so it must be me that missed that elk. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 21:15:01 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes In a message dated 10/29/00 4:00:01 PM, rtlahti@email.msn.com writes: << PS. Took first place this weekend up Elk Creek in a friendly little trail walk. Gun shoots straight so it must be me that missed that elk. >> WoooHoooo! I figured you just had a minor seizure on that elk...good to see you're back up to speed! << I'll wait for others to advise you on how to survive a NW winter "jaunt" >> Not too many replies on the capote, but they are in line with what you have suggested in the past, I believe. I think I'll get a Nor'wester from NWTraders.... the style is on the lines of a great coat, and does have a hood, which I like. ....and no fringe. Ymos, Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 21:55:56 EST From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Thanks for all the advice on braintanning Ho Camp, I want to thank everyone out there who offered advice and personal experiences with braintanning. As usual, I have learned that books and websites only get you started and Lady Experience takes over from there. Several of you offered advice that helped me to avoid some mistakes that may have ruined the process (I don;t know for sure as this is my first attempt)! At any rate, I really appreciate the feedback and great advice! I will let you guys know how it turns out! With much appreciation, - -C. Kent - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 09:12:56 -0700 From: Randal J Bublitz Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes Magpie, I made my capote from a horse blanket, Whitney. I used the Canoe Capote pattern option. It has a collar/cape over a cape, no hood. It hangs just low enough to cover my but. No fringe, or frills. Double + coverage on my neck and shoulders. I just belt it closed at this point, but am considering some buttons up the front. There is enough coat to keep one warm with this design, but not alot left over to hang in the fire, etc.... My 2 cents. hardtack - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 21:31:04 -0700 From: "Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 22:32:20 -0600 Ho the list Without my knowledge virtually my entire Favorites list of web pages and = links was deleted. It would be a big favor to me if anyone so inclined = would post me OFF LIST at rat@htcomp.net with a short list of their = favorite sites. This would help me tremendously in rebuilding my list. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ps: don't ask - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 18:04:50 -0700 From: Angela Gottfred Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes "Larry Huber" wrote: >>The simpler the better from a historical point of view. No cloth or leather fringe. No tassels or streamers from the hood. Originals made by the voyagers were tailored in the sleeves. Most had buttons of some sort.<< I agree with Larry completely, except for the buttons. Early capotes (say before 1821) seem to have usually been buttonless; instead, they were closed by a sash (NOT a belt made from blanketing), and a button or gunworm at the neck. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 14:59:37 -0700 From: Mike Moore Subject: MtMan-List: art! Angela, This last week I went to see the new promotion at the Denver Art Museum (DAM). The new exhibit, "Painters and the American West" was great. Seen some Tait, Miller and others whic I hadn't seen before. The one which struck me as unusual was a Miller (big- probably 6' by 8') called "Indians Provoking an Attack". The picture makes your eyes center on two people in the center of it. "Antione" and I forget if it is either Miller himself or Stewart. The curator says on the wall notes and elsewhere brings out how Miller was inflenced by earlier and more romantic art forms. And points this out with this picture and others. Have you seen the picture? What is your opinion on this? mike. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 20:50:52 EST From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Influences of Alfred Jacob Miller Miller was influenced by European Romanticism. He had studied in Europe, specifically Pais and Rome prior to the time Captain Stewart found him in New Orleans. He was known as the American Raphael. He was highly influenced by painters such as Delacroix. Is this enough information for you, or need I go on? Laura Jean - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 23:36:01 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Wilson Price Hallo the List, Does anyone know of a good book or two on Wilson Price Hunt? I know he was Astor's field marshal in the founding of Astoria, and leader of the overland Astorians in 1811. My interest is in that journey. Also, how come the AMM, NW Brigade, Wilson Price Party isn't called the "Wilson Price Hunt" Party? Ymos, Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 21:57:54 -0700 From: Dean Rudy Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wilson Price You can read Hunt's own account of this journey: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/wphunt.html At 11:36 PM 10/30/2000 -0500, you wrote: >Hallo the List, > >Does anyone know of a good book or two on Wilson Price Hunt? I know he was >Astor's field marshal in the founding of Astoria, and leader of the overland >Astorians in 1811. My interest is in that journey. > >Also, how come the AMM, NW Brigade, Wilson Price Party isn't called the >"Wilson Price Hunt" Party? > >Ymos, >Magpie > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 21:04:03 -0800 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wilson Price Astoria, by Washington Irving. Available through Barnes and Noble and other fine book stores. It is the Wilson Price Hunt Party. Put both your hearing aids in and pay attention. Capt. Lahti' - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Monday, October 30, 2000 8:36 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Wilson Price > Hallo the List, > > Does anyone know of a good book or two on Wilson Price Hunt? I know he was > Astor's field marshal in the founding of Astoria, and leader of the overland > Astorians in 1811. My interest is in that journey. > > Also, how come the AMM, NW Brigade, Wilson Price Party isn't called the > "Wilson Price Hunt" Party? > > Ymos, > Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 21:19:19 -0800 From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wilson Price Roger Lahti wrote: > It is the Wilson Price Hunt Party. Put both your hearing aids in and pay > attention. Well.... at least I know which pilgrim will be digging the next set of latrines for the Wilson Price Hunt party Snicker. Regards from Idaho Lee Newbill - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 22:09:47 -0800 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wilson Price > Well.... at least I know which pilgrim will be digging the next set of latrines > for the Wilson Price Hunt party Pilgrim? Hah! Over my dead body! Latrine digger or no! You got a shovel you can loan him Lee? Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 01:31:14 EST From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Dean Rudy Mr. Rudy: I never see much of you on this list, but, Sir, I want to thank you for your vision in founding it. In founding "all of us." This list is a priceless fountain of perspectives, history, bias, and inspiration. I hope to meet you one day. Just missed you by a couple of days on Dry Cottonwood Creek in Wyoming, in 1999. Wasn't that THE view? My God, why did any one venture farther than the Grand Tetons? Looking forward to the day, Laura Rugel Glise - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 05:49:16 -0700 From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wilson Price Magpie, You can also find him listed in "Names of People in the Fur Trade" at Dean's web site. I think 6 or seven books mention him. The references range from a brief mention to in and out of complete books. mike. SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > Hallo the List, > > Does anyone know of a good book or two on Wilson Price Hunt? I know he was > Astor's field marshal in the founding of Astoria, and leader of the overland > Astorians in 1811. My interest is in that journey. > > Also, how come the AMM, NW Brigade, Wilson Price Party isn't called the > "Wilson Price Hunt" Party? > > Ymos, > Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 10:11:25 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wilson Price In a message dated 10/30/00 9:20:00 PM, bluethistle@potlatch.com writes: << Well.... at least I know which pilgrim will be digging the next set of latrines for the Wilson Price Hunt party >> LOL.... You know, I could use some help arounds these boys, Lee! The last "challenge" I had was rootin through some briar patches (ouch) trying to push some pheasant to Capt Lahti... Who thinks up these challenges anyhow!!!??! Ymos, Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 10:33:19 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wilson Price In a message dated 10/30/00 8:58:45 PM, drudy@xmission.com writes: << You can read Hunt's own account of this journey: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/wphunt.html >> Dean, Outstanding! ..... I didn't know his diary even existed. Can you tell me if it is copied word for word, or selected excerpts ....and also, where is the "original" journal located? Thanks.... you've got a great archive there and I'll use it more often. Ymos, Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 10:46:35 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Large Tipis Hallo the List, In Wilson Price Hunt's diary, he mentions the Cheyenne Indians having large teepees made of buffalo hides and.... "they often hold as many as fifty people". I was of the belief that most buffalo hide teepees were rather small because of the weight. Just how large of a teepee would be needed to hold 50 people? This may be a good question for you Linda Holley.... I've seen 15 kids in my 20ft lodge, and that looked rather full.... Ymos, Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 16:56:49 -0800 From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Large Tipis I have had as many as 39 adults in an 18' tipi. Now we were not sleeping together mind you, but it was a great closeness. Also, that could have been two lodges put together as they sometimes did. There are old drawings of this and photos. I could see a large 20 or 22 out of hides. But it would be a "girl dog" to set up. SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > Hallo the List, > > In Wilson Price Hunt's diary, he mentions the Cheyenne Indians having large > teepees made of buffalo hides and.... "they often hold as many as fifty > people". I was of the belief that most buffalo hide teepees were rather small > because of the weight. > > Just how large of a teepee would be needed to hold 50 people? This may be a > good question for you Linda Holley.... I've seen 15 kids in my 20ft lodge, > and that looked rather full.... > > Ymos, > Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #664 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.