From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #710 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Saturday, January 13 2001 Volume 01 : Number 710 In this issue: -       MtMan-List: Re: Pipes -       MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #709 -       Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers -       Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers -       MtMan-List: Antique Dealers -       MtMan-List: antique dealers -       MtMan-List: name calling -       MtMan-List: test -       Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers -       Re: MtMan-List: name calling -       Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers -       MtMan-List: Re: Antique Dealers -       Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers -       Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers -       MtMan-List: Fwd: MT: HUDSON'S BAY TOKENS -       RE: MtMan-List: Honesty and Antique Dealers -       Re: MtMan-List: Honesty and Antique Dealers -       MtMan-List: TEST POST (dont bother opening) -       Re: MtMan-List: Honesty and Antique Dealers -       MtMan-List: Scene in Movie Jeremiah Johnson -       Re: MtMan-List: Scene in Movie Jeremiah Johnson -       MtMan-List: (no subject) -       MtMan-List: Re: [mlml] Re: cabin fever . -       Re: MtMan-List: Honesty and Antique Dealers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 23:36:27 -0500 (EST) From: SpiritoftheWood@webtv.net Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Pipes Hardtack,thanks for the info on Missouri Mershams.Very interesting,I still have a feeling it was probably done before 1868. Its seems unlikely that one man just suddenly invented something so simple but then again some one had to do it! Anyone else? M. "In Wildness Is the Preservation of the World" Thoreau http://community.webtv.net/SpiritoftheWood/THEBUCKSKINNERSCABIN - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 23:52:02 -0500 (EST) From: SpiritoftheWood@webtv.net Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #709 Walt,good thought on the Lewis and Clark angle.As I've stated before it just seems like to obvious an idea to have taken so long to come up with especially amongst the Native Peoples who have been smoking for so long a time! Let me know if you have any other thoughts and I'll do the same. Thanks Again! M. "In Wildness Is the Preservation of the World" Thoreau http://community.webtv.net/SpiritoftheWood/THEBUCKSKINNERSCABIN - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 01:47:00 EST From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers In a message dated 1/11/01 1:57:15 PM Pacific Standard Time, BrayHaven@aol.com writes: <> and that's why we all love gettin' to the mountains........ Barney - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 01:51:49 EST From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers Harddog, Thanks for your post. It was appreciated, by me, at least. I wasn't personally offended, and certainly hope you weren't by my post. I wasn't questioning your personal attitudes, and my comment about 'telling us how you really feel' was definitely tongue-in-cheek. The context you presented of the expression being a compliment and sign of astute business sense in your area was enlightening, and opened my eyes to the haste of my words, especially about a 'tirade'. Hopeo you'll accept my apology as I accept yours, and that one day we have the chance to share a fire... Humbly, Barney - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 07:52:46 -0600 From: "Best, Dianne" Subject: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers Well, I guess I am the antique here! The point a lot of people seemed to miss is that if you KNOW what something is worth and you pay a fraction of it's value because the other person DOESN'T, that is dishonest because you are taking advantage of the other person's deficiency. If one person sells and another buys an item for a pittance and neither knows it's true value, there is no malicious intent and the deal is fair. If a buyer and a seller, who both know the value of an item, haggle over price, there is no malice - either may walk away if he figures the price is too far away from the value. I am reminded of when my Dad sold a car while there were many farm labourers in town with cash burning a hole in their pockets. I was only a young girl but I remember a neighbour asking, "Herb, you could get three times that much for that car today. Why are you selling it so cheep?" My Dad answered, "Because that's all it is worth." I guess if it was me who bought that old picture in New England for $10, the one that turned out to have a signed copy of the Declaration of Independence under it and sold for $$$$ at auction, I would have gone back to find the person I bought it from and shared the profit. I guess our society has deteriorated a lot more in the last 40 years than I realized. I would like to say that I am shocked by some of the opinions expressed on this topic - I had hoped for better after all I had read. Maybe Buckskinning isn't the place for me after all. Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 07:56:57 -0600 From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: antique dealers I must disagree with Diane Best. If an antique dealer is selling something you can surmise that it is priced with what he feels is a fair profit margin over what he originally paid. If you buy that $5000.00 Hawken for $300.00 you both have made a good deal. Keep in mind that buying from an antique shop or flea market does not entail warranties. So, when you get home and start disassembling that "original" and find out it is really a recent made gun, you may have gotten $250.00 worth for your $300.00. On the whole 'skinners are honest. That does not mean making a profitable trade is dishonest either. My 2 cents. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:05:55 -0600 From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: name calling Barney said, Agreed. There was also a recent reference to "descendants of Mussolini" which I found inappropriate, rude and offensive. Such things do not belong on this list or anywhere in civilized society. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 01 06:06:45 PST From: rick dixon Subject: MtMan-List: test This is a test message for the list. Thanks rick ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home= =2Enetscape.com/webmail - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:26:44 EST From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers Personally, I continually wear a T-shirt that says: "Politically Incorrect and Proud" After all what is Political Correctness anyway? Censorship! Seems the Constitution has been rewritten. No longer do we have Freedom OF Speech, but Freedom FROM Speech. My 2 cents which are most likely worth even less. Longshot "Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage" (Newly Redesigned) http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:27:02 EST From: BrayHaven@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: name calling In a message dated 1/12/2001 9:06:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, frankf@centurytel.net writes: << Agreed. There was also a recent reference to "descendants of Mussolini" which I found inappropriate, rude and offensive. Such things do not belong on this list or anywhere in civilized society. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas >> Give me a BREAK, puuuulease. For a few days on this list I actually thought there were rational, intelligent people here. Apparently not all. I guess you have to have tough skin to live in Arkansas though. If I'd asked if the gun was a cheap itallian gun, you would really have been offended wouldn't you. Get a life, Frank! Greg S. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:52:49 EST From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers LODGEPOLE writes: > Personally, I continually wear a T-shirt that says: > "Politically Incorrect and Proud" Yeah, and it's about time you washed that damn thing. It's starting to smell worse than you. You can wear your bowling shirt while it's in the laundry. Glad to see you survived the snowstorm. How many of your dogs got kilt when the front porch collapsed? Fox - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:03:20 -0600 From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Antique Dealers >Really? One thing I had always heard about Buckskinners was their sense of >honesty. Guess that just aint so. If you can sucker the guy and he doesn't >know he has been suckered, it's ok to do it? Sorry fellas. I can't do it. >I'd suggest to the dealer that he do some more >homework. We're honest, but we're also practical. A 5000.00 rifle for 300.00. You bet. We've all made deals like that before, although maybe not at that magnitude. How ofter have we bought nice things at bargain basement prices, like the original 1880s buffalo coat and matching mittens I bought for 135.00 at a flea market. I didn't "sucker" her out of it. I paid her asking price. Do you think I should have said "Ma'am, you could get at least 500.00 for this." No way. It's not cheating if the dealer is making the offer. Anyone in that business better know the business. For all we know the antique may have thhought he was overpricing it (certainly he didn't pay 300.00 for it). I would let him know *after* I made the purchase, (not in a gloating way) to wake him up that he'd better do more homework. I'd help him all I can. That would be my service to him, and I'd be glad to do it. If I do it in a sincere way, I can walk away with a clear conscience. Ad, and others are right. There are many types of honesty, but a bargain is a bargain. Our hobby is expensive enough. There's no reason that we should turn down good deals when they present themselves. I don't. Cheers, HBC ********************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University Box 43191 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 henry.b.crawford@ttu.edu 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum *** Living History . . . Because It's There *** - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:37:31 -0500 From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers > The point a lot of people seemed to miss is that if you KNOW what something > is worth and you pay a fraction of it's value because the other person > DOESN'T, that is dishonest because you are taking advantage of the other > person's deficiency. I still fail to see where anyone was cheated. If I pay what a seller is asking for something, and he/she makes a profit, and is happy, then how is it taking advantage of some one? I see it all the time at the Flea Market here. My wife and I make our living buying items at garage sales and flea markets and reselling them on eBay and such. I have many times picked up a piece of West Virginia glass for $40 for as little as $3. I paid the seller what they were asking and did not hggle on the price. Why would I say... "Oh my, that is worth $40, not $3, so here is $40 for it."...?? At an auction, my wife bought a box lot of books... in this was a signed copy of a book from the late 1800s. She paid $7.50 for the box... the book sold for $73. Are you saying she should have gone to the auctioneer and given him the profit? Not likely!! That is called business in my opinion. > I guess if it was me who bought that old picture in New England for $10, the > one that turned out to have a signed copy of the Declaration of Independence > under it and sold for $$$$ at auction, I would have gone back to find the > person I bought it from and shared the profit. Let me understand this... you buy a picture at an old second hand shop, and behind the pix is a true copy of the Declaration of Independence. You turn around and sell the copy for say $6,000,000 via Southerby's. You are going to go back to this dealer and give him say half the profit? Why?? Neither of you knew it was there, and at the end of the original deal, you were both happy... he made a profit on the picture, and you got a picture you wanted. Neither of you knew that the copy was there in the first place. How is that cheating anyone if you keep the profit? > Maybe Buckskinning isn't the place for me after all. Dear Lady, I disagree with you on that. Buckskinning is full of wonderful people, and truly honest people... as I pointed out in a previous post. I think that some of us just do not have ideals that correspond with yours, and if that is the case, then you are in for a rude awakening in real life, for not many will ever meausre up to your standards. No matter what I have done over the years, I can still look at myselfin the mirror in the morning when I shave. My father always taught me... "To thine own self be true..." I have lived by that, and am not ashamed of anything I have done in my life... including paying $3 for a $40 piece of W Va glass. Ad Miller - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 12:02:48 -0600 From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers > Personally, I continually wear a T-shirt that says: > > "Politically Incorrect and Proud" > > Longshot Longshot, Where did you get your t-shirt? Must have one. No.....better get two. I can wear the clean one while the dirty one is in the washer. I don't have a bowling t-shirt. Victoria - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:36:51 -0500 (EST) From: SpiritoftheWood@webtv.net Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: MT: HUDSON'S BAY TOKENS - --WebTV-Mail-6607-2360 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Thought this might be of interest to the list! Michael A. Smith "In Wildness Is the Preservation of the World" Thoreau http://community.webtv.net/SpiritoftheWood/THEBUCKSKINNERSCABIN - --WebTV-Mail-6607-2360 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Received: from mailsorter-103-2.bryant.webtv.net (209.240.198.103) by storefull-294.iap.bryant.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:25:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by mailsorter-103-2.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) id 116B23E; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:25:08 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: spiritofthewood@mailsorter-bryant.bryant.webtv.net Received: from storefull-295.iap.bryant.webtv.net (storefull-295.iap.bryant.webtv.net [209.240.198.25]) by mailsorter-103-2.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) with ESMTP id ECDF758 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:25:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-295.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-e/mt.gso.26Feb98) id KAA04414; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:25:07 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAuAhUAzCnS52A7QPyjeWEYw7o1UFXoV/ACFQDClomVtztGIPS8xzF48bBwNeobYQ== From: TheAdventuresof@webtv.net (Bing) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:25:07 -0500 (EST) To: Spiritofthewood@webtv.net Subject: Fwd: MT: HUDSON'S BAY TOKENS Message-ID: <23921-3A5F4C03-2130@storefull-295.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=WebTV-Mail-9255-1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) - --WebTV-Mail-9255-1106 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Der Bingle@ http://community.webtv.net/TheAdventuresof/BINGSUNIVERSE Life is just a bowl of cherrys...so live... and laugh...at it ALL!!! - --WebTV-Mail-9255-1106 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit From: ana@athena.csd.net (ANA) Newsgroups: rec.collecting.coins Subject: MT: HUDSON'S BAY TOKENS Date: 11 Jan 2001 15:14:48 GMT Organization: Computer Systems Design Company Lines: 40 Message-ID: <93kil8$8dv$1@apollo.csd.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: athena.csdco.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) Transcript No. 2018 HUDSON'S BAY TOKENS By Thomas L. LeMarre When it comes to buying power, we're used to thinking in terms of dollars and cents. But in some areas of Canada, there was a time when goods were priced in beaver skins. In 1670, England's King Charles II granted the Hudson's Bay Company a charter to operate in the St. Lawrence River area. The activities of the Hudson's Bay Company traders made Native North Americans aware of the negotiability of furs--especially beaver skins. So the beaver, not the dollar, became the monetary standard. In the early 1800s, the Hudson's Bay Company issued beaver-shaped copper tokens valued at one beaver skin. Wooden tokens were also used at various times. They were branded "H-B," for Hudson's Bay, and "1-B," for "one beaver skin." The Hudson's Bay Company issued a new type of brass token in the 1850s. On one side were the company's coat of arms and an oak wreath. The other side was inscribed with the initials "H B," "E M" and "N B." "E M" referred to the East Main district, which now includes parts of northern Ontario and west central Quebec. For many years it was the Hudson's Bay Company's most profitable district. The Hudson's Bay Company tokens were issued in one-eighth, one-fourth, one-half and one beaver denominations. But because they were easily lost, they proved unpopular--and were soon discontinued. Updated versions of the Hudson's Bay Company tokens made a brief comeback after World War II--when aluminum "counters" were issued with the inscription "H B C" and a numeral representing the denomination. But this time, it was in dollars and cents--instead of beaver skins. Today's program was written by Thomas LaMarre. "Money Talks" is produced and underwritten by the American Numismatic Association, in Colorado Springs, America's coin club for over a century. Visit us on the web at www.money.org. - --WebTV-Mail-9255-1106-- - --WebTV-Mail-6607-2360-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:52:04 -0800 From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Honesty and Antique Dealers I'm getting drawn into an off topic conversation, but "honesty" is a timeless issue, I reckon, and one that is important to lovers of history. The "question" reduces to: is it dishonest to pay someone's asking price when you believe the item is worth far more? There are actually several issues at play here: honesty, justice, and generosity. In order to think clearly, one make must clear distinctions between different virtues. "Honesty" is a respect for the truth, and a commitment to speak the truth at all times. According to this, a customer who meets the seller's price without discussion has not lied or evaded the truth, and therefore has acted honestly. If the buyer and seller engaged in a discussion about the merits and "fair market price" of the article, honesty would then come into play. "Justice" is a respect for the rights of others, which in this case, reduces to the fact that buyer and seller are free to voluntarily accept or reject each other's offers. Since the buyer has not placed any pressure on the seller, nor attempted to defraud them by misleading them, there is no injustice in paying the seller what they voluntarily chose to sell the item for. "Justice" in this case does not REQUIRE the buyer to bring new facts to the seller's attention. If the buyer or seller attempts to drive the price in their favor by making fraudulent claims, or attempting to intimidate the other, we experience dishonesty and injustice. "Generosity" is a willingness to give to someone above and beyond their rights in the matter. A cash-and-carry transaction involves certain rights. The buyer has the right to own the item as represented, free and clear after payment, and the seller has the right to be full payment in legal tender. If, after purchase, the buyer is so thrilled that they feel impelled to GIVE the seller extra, that is very generous, but has nothing to do with honesty or justice. It is a separate virtue. It is apparent that Dianne tends to use "honesty" and "generosity" in a similar manner. This is her personal philosophy, which clearly differs from some of the others on this thread. What does this have to do with "buckskinning"? Many followers of this movement are trying to escape modern confusion and "get back to" a simpler time where these distinctions were easier to see. One of the disoveries you make by living "on the ground" with simple technology is that facts matter, wishful thinking doesn't get you anywhere, and you can't support your loved ones if you don't see to your own welfare first. In our historical period of interest (roughly, 1750 to 1840), philosophers were using logic and making a serious attempt to get clear on issues such as these. Our constitution, its unprecedented identification and support of personal rights, and the resulting outburst of freedom, productivity, and joy were the direct result of this "age of enlightenment". One of the erosions which has occured over the years, is the gradual conviction that people have a "right" to receive generosity. This has led to our modern "nanny state" where the government is "supposed" to take care of us all. Aside from the question of the government's competence to do so, the money to do this is "not theirs to give". This stems from confusing generosity, a virtue of VOLUNTARY giving, with honesty and justice, virtues which are REQUIRED for a civil society. In short, much of this discussion has stemmed from differing definitions for the term honesty. We can't make each other use the same definitions, but we can head off fruitless argument when it's apparent we use a word to mean different things. Respectfully submitted Pat Quilter - -----Original Message----- From: Best, Dianne [mailto:dbest@hydro.mb.ca] Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 5:53 AM To: 'MountainMan Digest' Subject: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers Well, I guess I am the antique here! The point a lot of people seemed to miss is that if you KNOW what something is worth and you pay a fraction of it's value because the other person DOESN'T, that is dishonest because you are taking advantage of the other person's deficiency. If one person sells and another buys an item for a pittance and neither knows it's true value, there is no malicious intent and the deal is fair. If a buyer and a seller, who both know the value of an item, haggle over price, there is no malice - either may walk away if he figures the price is too far away from the value. I am reminded of when my Dad sold a car while there were many farm labourers in town with cash burning a hole in their pockets. I was only a young girl but I remember a neighbour asking, "Herb, you could get three times that much for that car today. Why are you selling it so cheep?" My Dad answered, "Because that's all it is worth." I guess if it was me who bought that old picture in New England for $10, the one that turned out to have a signed copy of the Declaration of Independence under it and sold for $$$$ at auction, I would have gone back to find the person I bought it from and shared the profit. I guess our society has deteriorated a lot more in the last 40 years than I realized. I would like to say that I am shocked by some of the opinions expressed on this topic - I had hoped for better after all I had read. Maybe Buckskinning isn't the place for me after all. Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:31:19 -0800 From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Honesty and Antique Dealers Thanks, Pat. Always good to hear from you. Larry Huber - ----- Original Message ----- From: Pat Quilter To: Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 10:52 AM Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Honesty and Antique Dealers > I'm getting drawn into an off topic conversation, but "honesty" is a > timeless issue, I reckon, and one that is important to lovers of history. > The "question" reduces to: is it dishonest to pay someone's asking price > when you believe the item is worth far more? > There are actually several issues at play here: honesty, justice, and > generosity. In order to think clearly, one make must clear distinctions > between different virtues. > "Honesty" is a respect for the truth, and a commitment to speak the truth > at all times. According to this, a customer who meets the seller's price > without discussion has not lied or evaded the truth, and therefore has acted > honestly. If the buyer and seller engaged in a discussion about the merits > and "fair market price" of the article, honesty would then come into play. > > "Justice" is a respect for the rights of others, which in this case, > reduces to the fact that buyer and seller are free to voluntarily accept or > reject each other's offers. Since the buyer has not placed any pressure on > the seller, nor attempted to defraud them by misleading them, there is no > injustice in paying the seller what they voluntarily chose to sell the item > for. "Justice" in this case does not REQUIRE the buyer to bring new facts to > the seller's attention. If the buyer or seller attempts to drive the price > in their favor by making fraudulent claims, or attempting to intimidate the > other, we experience dishonesty and injustice. > "Generosity" is a willingness to give to someone above and beyond their > rights in the matter. A cash-and-carry transaction involves certain rights. > The buyer has the right to own the item as represented, free and clear after > payment, and the seller has the right to be full payment in legal tender. > If, after purchase, the buyer is so thrilled that they feel impelled to GIVE > the seller extra, that is very generous, but has nothing to do with honesty > or justice. It is a separate virtue. > It is apparent that Dianne tends to use "honesty" and "generosity" in a > similar manner. This is her personal philosophy, which clearly differs from > some of the others on this thread. > What does this have to do with "buckskinning"? Many followers of this > movement are trying to escape modern confusion and "get back to" a simpler > time where these distinctions were easier to see. One of the disoveries you > make by living "on the ground" with simple technology is that facts matter, > wishful thinking doesn't get you anywhere, and you can't support your loved > ones if you don't see to your own welfare first. > In our historical period of interest (roughly, 1750 to 1840), > philosophers were using logic and making a serious attempt to get clear on > issues such as these. Our constitution, its unprecedented identification and > support of personal rights, and the resulting outburst of freedom, > productivity, and joy were the direct result of this "age of enlightenment". > One of the erosions which has occured over the years, is the gradual > conviction that people have a "right" to receive generosity. This has led to > our modern "nanny state" where the government is "supposed" to take care of > us all. Aside from the question of the government's competence to do so, the > money to do this is "not theirs to give". This stems from confusing > generosity, a virtue of VOLUNTARY giving, with honesty and justice, virtues > which are REQUIRED for a civil society. > In short, much of this discussion has stemmed from differing definitions > for the term honesty. We can't make each other use the same definitions, but > we can head off fruitless argument when it's apparent we use a word to mean > different things. > Respectfully submitted > Pat Quilter > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Best, Dianne [mailto:dbest@hydro.mb.ca] > Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 5:53 AM > To: 'MountainMan Digest' > Subject: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers > > > Well, I guess I am the antique here! > > The point a lot of people seemed to miss is that if you KNOW what something > is worth and you pay a fraction of it's value because the other person > DOESN'T, that is dishonest because you are taking advantage of the other > person's deficiency. > > If one person sells and another buys an item for a pittance and neither > knows it's true value, there is no malicious intent and the deal is fair. > > If a buyer and a seller, who both know the value of an item, haggle over > price, there is no malice - either may walk away if he figures the price is > too far away from the value. > > I am reminded of when my Dad sold a car while there were many farm labourers > in town with cash burning a hole in their pockets. I was only a young girl > but I remember a neighbour asking, "Herb, you could get three times that > much for that car today. Why are you selling it so cheep?" My Dad answered, > "Because that's all it is worth." > > I guess if it was me who bought that old picture in New England for $10, the > one that turned out to have a signed copy of the Declaration of Independence > under it and sold for $$$$ at auction, I would have gone back to find the > person I bought it from and shared the profit. > > I guess our society has deteriorated a lot more in the last 40 years than I > realized. I would like to say that I am shocked by some of the opinions > expressed on this topic - I had hoped for better after all I had read. Maybe > Buckskinning isn't the place for me after all. > > Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:04:16 -0500 From: Tim Jewell Subject: MtMan-List: TEST POST (dont bother opening) Hello to anyone who bothered opening this. Sorry but I have been having problems posting and receiving to the list. I am getting some posts now but need to see if I can send. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:03:12 -0600 From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Honesty and Antique Dealers Mr. Quilter, We don't get to hear enough from you, but when we do, you always have a good word. Victoria - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 23:34:50 -0500 (EST) From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: Scene in Movie Jeremiah Johnson where Johnson, wife Swan, and "son" Caleb are eating what looks like some sort of large biscuit with what appeared to be dried meat chunks? (pemmican?) in it. What exactly could this item be called? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 01:19:00 EST From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Scene in Movie Jeremiah Johnson I don't know the answer to your question, but I read the book, I believe, "Mountain Man," that Jeremiah Johnson hails from . . . my point here is that when Jeremiah (Robert Redford) returns and finds his pregnant Indian wife and "picked up" son murdered by the Indians. . . in the book he doesn't just find them dead. He finds them eaten by wolves, with only their chewed up bodies/bones remaining. He takes their bones with him and buries them later at a place he finds appropriate for their burial. To me it is a much more violent and powerful image than just returning when they have been murdered. The carrying of their bones is profound. Just my thoughts. Laura Glise Wind1838 (that would be the Rendezvous) @aol.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 04:14:35 -0500 From: Tim Jewell Subject: MtMan-List: (no subject) auth bfc61be3 subscribe hist_text tjewell@home.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:14:29 -0500 From: "Addison Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: [mlml] Re: cabin fever . I got a cure for my cabin fever.... leaving in the morning for Plant City, FL, and the ALAFIA RONNYVOUS!!! I'll be unsubscribing while I am gone... Heh... forgot to last time, and came back to over 1300 emails!!! Took me several days just to sort thru them all... *laughs* Now, with 3 lists, I definately need to remember. Once again, an invite to all who are going to the Alafia, stop by the camp... Would love to meet andyone I haven't met yet, and rekindle friendships with those of you that I have met. I know Bill Marney and Hawk are going to be staying in my extra tent for a few days.... got room for a couple more if need be... *grins*... And I promise not to pick up any road kill for the pot on the way down... well... maybe only fresh road kill... if the buzzards won't play with it, it won't be in the pot... I promise! See y'all in about 3 weeks... Ad Miller Alderson, WV - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 08:16:17 -0700 From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Honesty and Antique Dealers Pat, Well said, The term "Buyer be Ware" goes both ways. YMOS Ole # 718 - ---------- >From: Pat Quilter >To: "'hist_text@lists.xmission.com'" >Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Honesty and Antique Dealers >Date: Fri, Jan 12, 2001, 11:52 AM > > I'm getting drawn into an off topic conversation, but "honesty" is a >timeless issue, I reckon, and one that is important to lovers of history. > The "question" reduces to: is it dishonest to pay someone's asking price >when you believe the item is worth far more? > There are actually several issues at play here: honesty, justice, and >generosity. In order to think clearly, one make must clear distinctions >between different virtues. > "Honesty" is a respect for the truth, and a commitment to speak the truth >at all times. According to this, a customer who meets the seller's price >without discussion has not lied or evaded the truth, and therefore has acted >honestly. If the buyer and seller engaged in a discussion about the merits >and "fair market price" of the article, honesty would then come into play. > > "Justice" is a respect for the rights of others, which in this case, >reduces to the fact that buyer and seller are free to voluntarily accept or >reject each other's offers. Since the buyer has not placed any pressure on >the seller, nor attempted to defraud them by misleading them, there is no >injustice in paying the seller what they voluntarily chose to sell the item >for. "Justice" in this case does not REQUIRE the buyer to bring new facts to >the seller's attention. If the buyer or seller attempts to drive the price >in their favor by making fraudulent claims, or attempting to intimidate the >other, we experience dishonesty and injustice. > "Generosity" is a willingness to give to someone above and beyond their >rights in the matter. A cash-and-carry transaction involves certain rights. >The buyer has the right to own the item as represented, free and clear after >payment, and the seller has the right to be full payment in legal tender. >If, after purchase, the buyer is so thrilled that they feel impelled to GIVE >the seller extra, that is very generous, but has nothing to do with honesty >or justice. It is a separate virtue. > It is apparent that Dianne tends to use "honesty" and "generosity" in a >similar manner. This is her personal philosophy, which clearly differs from >some of the others on this thread. > What does this have to do with "buckskinning"? Many followers of this >movement are trying to escape modern confusion and "get back to" a simpler >time where these distinctions were easier to see. One of the disoveries you >make by living "on the ground" with simple technology is that facts matter, >wishful thinking doesn't get you anywhere, and you can't support your loved >ones if you don't see to your own welfare first. > In our historical period of interest (roughly, 1750 to 1840), >philosophers were using logic and making a serious attempt to get clear on >issues such as these. Our constitution, its unprecedented identification and >support of personal rights, and the resulting outburst of freedom, >productivity, and joy were the direct result of this "age of enlightenment". >One of the erosions which has occured over the years, is the gradual >conviction that people have a "right" to receive generosity. This has led to >our modern "nanny state" where the government is "supposed" to take care of >us all. Aside from the question of the government's competence to do so, the >money to do this is "not theirs to give". This stems from confusing >generosity, a virtue of VOLUNTARY giving, with honesty and justice, virtues >which are REQUIRED for a civil society. > In short, much of this discussion has stemmed from differing definitions >for the term honesty. We can't make each other use the same definitions, but >we can head off fruitless argument when it's apparent we use a word to mean >different things. >Respectfully submitted >Pat Quilter > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Best, Dianne [mailto:dbest@hydro.mb.ca] >Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 5:53 AM >To: 'MountainMan Digest' >Subject: MtMan-List: Antique Dealers > > >Well, I guess I am the antique here! > >The point a lot of people seemed to miss is that if you KNOW what something >is worth and you pay a fraction of it's value because the other person >DOESN'T, that is dishonest because you are taking advantage of the other >person's deficiency. > >If one person sells and another buys an item for a pittance and neither >knows it's true value, there is no malicious intent and the deal is fair. > >If a buyer and a seller, who both know the value of an item, haggle over >price, there is no malice - either may walk away if he figures the price is >too far away from the value. > >I am reminded of when my Dad sold a car while there were many farm labourers >in town with cash burning a hole in their pockets. I was only a young girl >but I remember a neighbour asking, "Herb, you could get three times that >much for that car today. Why are you selling it so cheep?" My Dad answered, >"Because that's all it is worth." > >I guess if it was me who bought that old picture in New England for $10, the >one that turned out to have a signed copy of the Declaration of Independence >under it and sold for $$$$ at auction, I would have gone back to find the >person I bought it from and shared the profit. > >I guess our society has deteriorated a lot more in the last 40 years than I >realized. I would like to say that I am shocked by some of the opinions >expressed on this topic - I had hoped for better after all I had read. Maybe >Buckskinning isn't the place for me after all. > >Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #710 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.