From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #719 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Saturday, January 27 2001 Volume 01 : Number 719 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -       Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -       Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -       MtMan-List: short starters -       Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -       Re: MtMan-List: short starters -       Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -       Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -       Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -       Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -       Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -       Re: MtMan-List: skinning raccoons and my moral dilemna -       Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -       Re: MtMan-List: Straight Edge Razors -       Re: MtMan-List: short starters -       Re: MtMan-List: skinning raccoons and my moral dilemna -       Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -       Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -       Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -       Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -       Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:18:46 -0500 From: "Dennis Earp" <96mfg@hspower.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof > Short Starters.......a Treatise of Factual Supposition Dave, I agree with the majority of your statement and I have had many of the same thoughts and read some of the same material. The problem is finding the primary source documentation and/or substantiating those beliefs. I can't remember what the short starter was called in the 18th century and before, but I'm sure it was a German word. While we're on the subject, does anyone know of any good books on the colonial jaeger or transitional rifles other than usual ones - Shumway, etc. Thanks, Dennis - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 13:40:34 -0800 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof Also Mt > Men by their very nature are (were) independent, inovative and non conforming > souls. I guess my point is that if it was available and there was a reason > to use it (such as fire irons, short starters, etc) it should be acceptable. > Is to me. Greg, In some circles it is acceptable. In other circles it is not. No matter what the item one is talking about. In the RMFtrade, fire irons were not necessary. Short starters were not necessary. Were they available some where in the world? Probably. Does that mean they were used in the Rockies by our stalwart trapper hero? No. Does that mean you can't use them? No (depending on what group your playing with). Should you use them even though they probably weren't used by our trapper? Depends on how important it is to you to "do it the way they did it". If it ain't important to you then go ahead but don't go around kidding the newbie into thinking your doing it "just like the old timers". And this business about, "by their very nature are (were) independent, innovative and non conforming souls." that you mention. Would you mind illustraighting some of the innovations these guys came up with that flew in the face of conventional wisdom of the times? Or perhaps we could talk about the percentages of trappers that struck out on their own from St. Louie versus the number that went out with an organized Brigade under the almost Military leadership of the "top hand, boss, owner, or employer"? And how many of them didn't conform to "what a trapper was supposed to be like" or do or how he may treat with his fellows? From what I have read here just today, they were youngish men trying to make some money in a tight labor market. When the money ran out, they went on to do what else they could do whether it was farm or build houses, get into real-estate or perhaps be a tourist guide or be a government official. Sounds pretty common to me. Oh yeah, a few got into stealing horses. Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:48:10 -0800 From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof Capt. As per usual you have hit the nail squarely on the head ! Good job ! I would add that the same held true for the company hunters of the 18th century. Pendleton - -----Original Message----- From: Roger Lahti To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Saturday, January 27, 2001 1:40 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof Also Mt > Men by their very nature are (were) independent, inovative and non conforming > souls. I guess my point is that if it was available and there was a reason > to use it (such as fire irons, short starters, etc) it should be acceptable. > Is to me. Greg, In some circles it is acceptable. In other circles it is not. No matter what the item one is talking about. In the RMFtrade, fire irons were not necessary. Short starters were not necessary. Were they available some where in the world? Probably. Does that mean they were used in the Rockies by our stalwart trapper hero? No. Does that mean you can't use them? No (depending on what group your playing with). Should you use them even though they probably weren't used by our trapper? Depends on how important it is to you to "do it the way they did it". If it ain't important to you then go ahead but don't go around kidding the newbie into thinking your doing it "just like the old timers". And this business about, "by their very nature are (were) independent, innovative and non conforming souls." that you mention. Would you mind illustraighting some of the innovations these guys came up with that flew in the face of conventional wisdom of the times? Or perhaps we could talk about the percentages of trappers that struck out on their own from St. Louie versus the number that went out with an organized Brigade under the almost Military leadership of the "top hand, boss, owner, or employer"? And how many of them didn't conform to "what a trapper was supposed to be like" or do or how he may treat with his fellows? >From what I have read here just today, they were youngish men trying to make some money in a tight labor market. When the money ran out, they went on to do what else they could do whether it was farm or build houses, get into real-estate or perhaps be a tourist guide or be a government official. Sounds pretty common to me. Oh yeah, a few got into stealing horses. Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:57:54 -0600 From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: short starters Pendleton said, What riflemen of what period are you referring to? The driving of a bare ball down a rifled barrel is a widespread myth in most cases. The myth is most prevalent with the Jaeger when, in fact, a patch was universally used. To the best of my knowledge, Americans also invariably patched. I have never seen or heard anything to the contrary. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:18:15 -0700 From: "Buck Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof Dennis Earp wrote: > > Short Starters.......a Treatise of Factual Supposition > > Dave, > > I agree with the majority of your statement and I have had many of the same > thoughts and read some of the same material. The problem is finding the > primary source documentation and/or substantiating those beliefs. I can't > remember what the short starter was called in the 18th century and before, > but I'm sure it was a German word. > > While we're on the subject, does anyone know of any good books on the > colonial jaeger or transitional rifles other than usual ones - Shumway, etc. > > Thanks, > Dennis > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html There's a book called "The American Jaegar" not Jaeger with an "e", I will see if a friend I loaned it to a few years ago still has it, don't remember the writer. Dennis Miles has a rifle copied from this book that I sold / traded him a few years ago, maybe he'll share a picture of "Mrs. Jager". What do you think Dennis M. Later, Buck Conner Research page: http://pages.about.com/conner1/ _______HRD__ Personal page: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ ____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:22:44 -0800 From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: short starters Fusco wrote: The driving of a bare ball down a rifled barrel is a widespread myth in most cases. Frank, The practice of driving a bare ball down a bore goes back to the days of the early guns used in the Middle East. (Pardon me, but I can't remember what those guns were called.) The guns of the early to mid Jaeger period were not always patched. The practice of using a patched round ball was not common untill the end of the Jaeger period. >>To the best of my knowledge, Americans also invariably patched. I have never seen or heard anything to the contrary. There are many accounts of hunters not using a patch, when time was of the essence. Have you never done that when shooting in a 'speed match' ? Pendleton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:01:09 EST From: BrayHaven@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof In a message dated 1/27/2001 4:40:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, rtlahti@email.msn.com writes: << If it ain't important to you then go ahead but don't go around kidding the newbie into thinking your doing it "just like the old timers". And this business about, "by their very nature are (were) independent, innovative and non conforming souls." that you mention. Would you mind illustraighting some of the innovations these guys came up with that flew in the face of conventional wisdom of the times? >> Gee whiz Capn' I didn't realize YOU were There!!. Now I know who can answer all the questions about waht was used and what wasn't :o). I think a lot of this criticism of what someone uses or doesn't use (that may well have been available to peopel headed west) is elitist arrogance and not really based on fact. IE: "If it's not stated in so & so's journal that they used a short starter then they must not have, so you can't use one in my camp blah blah..." Greg Sefton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:22:09 EST From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof In a message dated 1/27/01 3:02:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, BrayHaven@aol.com writes: << I think a lot of this criticism of what someone uses or doesn't use... is elitist arrogance and not really based on fact. >> Whats not based on fact is your acceptance of undocumented items. It's the same old argument over and over, and it all comes down to this: where's the beef? I'm not in the AMM, but I can understand that if you can't produce an artifact or documentation, you have no proof at all. Even if an item may have been so simple to create or commonplace in everyday life as to not be recorded in a journal, that doesn't change the fact that there's no documentation. Just my $.02. Barney - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:37:18 EST From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof > The problem is finding the > primary source documentation and/or substantiating those beliefs. I can't > remember what the short starter was called in the 18th century and before, > but I'm sure it was a German word. Dennis, Unfortunately, most of the manuscripts that contain the documentation do not reside in this country, are printed in foreign languages, and are unavailable to common folk such as us. World traveled authors who are multi-lingual seem to dig them out. The footnotes are from arcane sources in said countries. As Americans, we often rely only on what is available in our country. On the other hand, many foreigners visited our country and were more prolific in writing down and publishing their thoughts.......again, the problem is access. Dave - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:42:48 -0800 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof - ----- Original Message ----- From: "larry pendleton" To: Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 3:48 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof > Capt. > As per usual you have hit the nail squarely on the head ! Good job ! > > I would add that the same held true for the company hunters of the 18th > century. Pendleton, Maybe it's my soul purpose in life. I think now I know what I am here for. Some times I'm the hammer, sometimes the nail. Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:44:07 EST From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof > Maybe it's my soul purpose in life. I think now I know what I am here for. > Some times I'm the hammer, sometimes the nail. Capt, It has been my observation that you are most often the thumb which separates the two. Dave - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:48:02 -0500 From: packratt@erols.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: skinning raccoons and my moral dilemna > Blaming guns for killing people is like blaming spoons for making Rosie > O'Donnel fat? > It isn't the spoon's fault. It's the knife and fork's. packratt - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 17:57:29 -0700 From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof Sir, If a short start was nessecary then they would have had it, I think they would have run out of patch material first. I am starting not to care about such triviality, oh by the way I shoot a "Jager" but then that is not period anyway or did Bridger have one? YMOS Ole # 718 - ---------- >From: LivingInThePast@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof >Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001, 4:22 PM > >In a message dated 1/27/01 3:02:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, >BrayHaven@aol.com writes: > ><< I think a lot of this criticism of what someone uses or doesn't use... is >elitist arrogance and not really based on fact. >> > >Whats not based on fact is your acceptance of undocumented items. It's the >same old argument over and over, and it all comes down to this: where's the >beef? I'm not in the AMM, but I can understand that if you can't produce an >artifact or documentation, you have no proof at all. > >Even if an item may have been so simple to create or commonplace in everyday >life as to not be recorded in a journal, that doesn't change the fact that >there's no documentation. Just my $.02. Barney > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:11:37 -0600 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Straight Edge Razors This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C08894.F8A0D0C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable WY Go to Google.com and enter a search for "straight razors". When that = opens go to the 5th page (41-50 of 11,000 hits) and find a listing for a = straight razor discussion list and go to the bottom of the page, the = 50th hit, and open and read some excellent instructions on the use of a = straight razor. I use a straight razor from time and find it to be a = satisfying way of shaving. In addition to the various instructions you = will find remember this AT ALL TIMES, REPEAT, AT ALL TIMES, BE 100% = AWARE OF WHERE THE BLADE IS. It is easy to cut ones self in the most = unlikely places. Before I got the hang of it I managed to cut both ear = lobes and the tip of my nose. You can scarcely imagine how silly one = can look with a small square of toilet paper stuck to the tip of ones = nose with a bright little circle of blood. Lanney Ratcliff ps: Get a bottle of Florida Water or Bay Rum to complete the effect. = Modern dept store cologne or after shave just doesn't work. - ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C08894.F8A0D0C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
WY
Go to Google.com and enter a search for "straight=20 razors".  When that opens go to the 5th page (41-50 of 11,000 hits) = and=20 find a listing for a straight razor discussion list and go to the = bottom of=20 the page, the 50th hit, and open and read some excellent instructions on = the use=20 of a straight razor.  I use a straight razor from time and find it = to be a=20 satisfying way of shaving.  In addition to the various instructions = you=20 will find remember this AT ALL TIMES, REPEAT, AT ALL TIMES, BE 100% = AWARE OF=20 WHERE THE BLADE IS.  It is easy to cut ones self in the most = unlikely=20 places.  Before I got the hang of it I managed to cut both ear = lobes and=20 the tip of my nose.  You can scarcely imagine how silly one can = look with a=20 small square of toilet paper stuck to the tip of ones nose with a bright = little=20 circle of blood.
Lanney Ratcliff
ps:  Get a bottle of Florida Water or Bay Rum = to complete=20 the effect.  Modern dept store cologne or after shave just doesn't=20 work.
- ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C08894.F8A0D0C0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:40:46 -0600 From: "Ethan Sudman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: short starters I've always wondered what the purpose of the patch was. Does anyone know? Thanks, Ethan Sudman (ethansudman@home.com) - ----- Original Message ----- From: Frank Fusco To: Mtn. Man List Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 3:57 PM Subject: MtMan-List: short starters > Pendleton said, > > use a patch.> > > What riflemen of what period are you referring to? The driving of a > bare ball down a rifled barrel is a widespread myth in most cases. The myth > is most prevalent with the Jaeger when, in fact, a patch was universally > used. To the best of my knowledge, Americans also invariably patched. I > have never seen or heard anything to the contrary. > Frank G. Fusco > Mountain Home, Arkansas > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:49:37 -0600 From: "Ethan Sudman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: skinning raccoons and my moral dilemna I doubt it had any real chance. You did the right thing. Sincerely, Ethan Sudman (ethansudman@home.com) - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 11:10 AM Subject: MtMan-List: skinning raccoons and my moral dilemna > Hey list, > > Let me begin by saying that my dilemna is not is skinning raccoons or any > other animal...arather, how I just came by the one outside waiting to be > skinned. As I was driving to my family farm to get a load to cow manure > forthe garden, I noted a roadkill coon. On my way back I stopped to throw it > in back of the truck as it looked quite dead and banged up (NOTE: ALWAYS TEST > YOUR DEAD ANIMALS WITH A LONG IMPLEMENT QUITE WELL BEFORE PICKING THEM UP - > as this one was not quite dead and woke up rather groggily). It tried to > move and walked with a severe limp and it was quite obvious it had head > trauma. It limped up the bank, back toward the road, toward the bank, then > along the road, etc. I guided it with the shovel I had to keep it from > getting in the road. Once in the woods I watched it thinking maybe it would > get its bearings. IT did OK on level ground but seemed to have trouble > walking over sticks and such or clearing basic ground litter. I have always > been taught it is more merciful to put an injured animal out of its misery > than to let it go on suffering for hours and possibly days. It was obvious > to me that the critter could not climb a tree...and we have a lot of coyotes > around here....It would not defend itself from me and was a small coon to > begin with. It did not hiss at me of even put up a defense or run...just > seemed very stoned. This was the second time I had to look a living creature > in the eye from even arm's distance and make a decision to kill or let it be. > (The first was a doe with a car-shattered pelvis...easy decision). Long > story short..I retrieved my pistol from the truck and shot the coon in the > neck. It was a well-placed shot, but I reccomend a head shot if anyone has > to do thesame in the future. MY DILEMNA: Did the coon really stand a chance > to living in the cold and with the coyotes? Why do I worry about this? All > the creatures around us are part of God's creation and I believe it is our > responsibility to know how to respect them...including knowing when and when > not to intervene with them. I faced the situation once, so I may have to > face it again AND I just do not know that much about raccoons. I figured > some of you may have practical experience in this area. Well, I have a > raccoon to skin out and cow manure to spread. > > Thanks, > -C. Kent > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:08:18 -0800 (PST) From: Dennis Fisher Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof > Unfortunately, most of the manuscripts that contain > the documentation do not > reside in this country, are printed in foreign > languages, and are unavailable > to common folk such as us I don't think there is any doubt that short starters existed in the past. The question was (at least I thought this was the question) about the use of them in the rocky mountain fur trade era. I think I will pull out my copy of the "Muzzleloading Caploack Rifle" and see what Ned Roberts had to say on the subject of patchs and short starters. Dennis AMM #612 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:38:12 EST From: BrayHaven@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof In a message dated 1/27/2001 6:23:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, LivingInThePast@aol.com writes: << Whats not based on fact is your acceptance of undocumented items. It's the same old argument over and over, and it all comes down to this: where's the beef? I'm not in the AMM, but I can understand that if you can't produce an artifact or documentation, you have no proof at all. Even if an item may have been so simple to create or commonplace in everyday life as to not be recorded in a journal, that doesn't change the fact that there's no documentation. Just my $.02. Barney >> Well if there's documentation that it existed back east at the time and the MM came from there, who's to say the item was never in the mountains? If we are to participate in this make believe and act out our fantasy, I can be a free trapper if I want. I can have anything in my possibles that was available at the time and be as correct as anyone. Capn mentioned "doing it just like the old timers" OWTE. Who are we kidding? We shoot rifles of modern chrome molybdenum steel made on electric equipment and CNC machines, we drive to the rendezvous in big A/C rigs and unload our plunder and walk back from the parking area. We sleep in tents made of machine woven canvas, Meat (for the most part) from the market. We have our medications, our Dr scholls insoles etc. We haven't had a real scalping or masacre here in FL in several years at least. On & on etc. What bugs me is someone who smugly states that a piece of equipment isn't "correct" because he didn't see it in any of his books. Who is to say that I didn't bring this item with me to the mountains? There is probably far more that we DON'T know about that 25 year period than we DO. Many of the trappers went, as Lahti says, as part of brigades run by dictatorial tyrants but many of those became free trappers. Many also went home after 1 season. From what I can tell from my limited Mt Man library (25 volumes or so) is that a major reason for staying was the fredom from a very controlling and often puritanical society back east, or the law. Of course the motive was also greed. They were independednt and resourceful (or they didn't live very long). I think the burden of proof for whether something that was available in the period (or before) is appropriate should be on the critic. He should be required to proove that item (fire irons, short starters, suspenders or whatever) never was used in the mountains during the Mt Man era rather than the person who uses it having to prove it was. I know some people who simply quit participating in the organized gatherings (rendezvous) because of stupid rules imposed by some idealogical bushway who was imposing his personal opinions on the participants. To me, if it's period correct, it's fine... period. Just my $.02 as well. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:23:41 -0800 From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof Greg wrote: ). I think a lot of this criticism of what someone uses or doesn't use (that may well have been available to people headed west) is elitist arrogance and not really based on fact. I.E.: "If it's not stated in so & So.'s journal that they used a short starter then they must not have, so you can't use one in my camp blah blah..." Mr. Sefton, Who is being more arrogant, those who use first person accounts of history as documentation, or those who choose to ignore them in order to justify anything they choose to take to their 'porky-do' events ? Pendleton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:32:16 -0800 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof How perceptive of you Dave. I have been there now that you mention it. Capt. Lahti' - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 3:44 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof > > Maybe it's my soul purpose in life. I think now I know what I am here for. > > Some times I'm the hammer, sometimes the nail. > > Capt, > It has been my observation that you are most often the thumb which separates > the two. > > Dave > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:35:21 -0800 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters > > Gee whiz Capn' I didn't realize YOU were There!!. Now I know who can answer > all the questions about waht was used and what wasn't :o). Greg, I don't have any illusions that I can answer "all the questions about waht was used and what wasn't" any better than you. And you certainly haven't addressed my comments with what you offered in return. I think a lot of > this criticism of what someone uses or doesn't use (that may well have been > available to peopel headed west) is elitist arrogance and not really based on > fact. As you do in the above passage, all you are doing is perpetuating the myth that there are some "hard core elitist bastards" out there that are keeping "us" fine folks from enjoying our selves. And that is all I get my dander up about. IE: "If it's not stated in so & so's journal that they used a short > starter then they must not have, so you can't use one in my camp blah blah..." I have no idea how many times someone has tried to explain that not every event is held for your personal benefit. (I use the term "your" generically and rhetorically) There are many events held where you can do pretty much as you wish as long as you look "old timey". And to be perfectly honest, they have turned into as close to a commercial "Mt.. man" dude ranch experience as you'll find. They are open to anyone who will pay the price of admission and at least walk around looking "old timey" even if they have to walk in from their motor home and not out of their tipi or whatever white canvas tent. They are called "western/eastern/southeastern/etc. Rendezvous. And they are fun. I, along with most of the guys and gals on this list, go to them. They are a blast! I've no doubt that you'll run into some self important "expert" at one of these "public" events that will be uncouth enough to call you on your iron works or reservation bead work clothing decorations or late 19th Century Pioneer dress's or "Authentic Plains Indian War shirt" or worse Ghost Dance Shirt, or what ever. You may even run into some "expert" on the range at the organized shooting events (all done so you get your moneys worth) who will try to tell you your short starter is not period authentic or historically correct. Perhaps he will venture that you should know that mountain men really didn't throw their axes at a mark at Rendezvous much less their skinning knives. I'm sure you'll run into all sorts of folks who will walk right up to you and tell you any number of unauthentic things your doing or have are unauthentic or that you shouldn't have them. Well, you just tell him where to shove it! You explain to him that if he hadn't noticed, your at an event that is open to the public, is not a juried event where one is required to show ahead of time (before you show up) that one's gear is well researched and documented for "that particular" re-enactment of that "historical" event during a very specific time in history and all the rules said was that you weren't supposed to show up with anything that wasn't in the Rocky Mountains prior to 1840! That IS what the rules said by the way. How do I know? I helped write some of the first rules ever posted for such public events held back in the late 70's that tried to clearly spell out what was and wasn't OK at a strictly primitive pre 1840's Rendezvous event. Went to a lot of trouble to explain to folks that just because "if they'da had it, they'da used it" don't cut it. Didn't help much. They still use the rules but not much attention is paid to them. So what is a guy gona do?! Getting too old to really give a rip to be honest about it. I'll tell ya what I do. I listen to what learned friends and acquaintances have to say about what their research has turned up. I try to put into practice as much of it as I can. I go to events where authenticity is not that big a requirement and try to do it correctly to show the new guy and his family next door that are just getting started that it can be done without filling the back of a 3/4 ton 4X4 pickup and a serious U-haul trailer. I try to gently steer folks away from making the same mistakes I made. And I keep in mind that at such events "if they look old timey" they are just fine. And when I take license with the truth of authenticity, I'm honest about it. I also go to some serious events where everyone there is expecting to be prepared to explain why they have such and such or be embarrassed about the "unauthentic" things they have or can't learn to do without. I do my best to follow the rules that exist for these special "serious" events so that I show I am trying and respect the efforts of those who have gone to a lot of trouble to do even better. Because I show I am trying, no one has ever come up to me and said, "You can't use that in our camp". And I haven't gone over to someone and said, " If you can't document this your gona have to leave". But then these events aren't open to the public and no one has a god given right to attend if they don't want to play the game according to the rules anyway. Everyone who got invited knows what they are getting themselves in to. But every once in a while I have run into some guy (or gal) who starts preaching bull shit. What they usually preach is something like, "I think a lot of this criticism of what someone uses or doesn't use (that may well have been available to people headed west) is elitist arrogance and not really based on fact.", or worse, "Hell, the Mt. Men were independent, free thinkers with a penchant for innovative ideas who would have solved all the problems of doing things contemporary to their times by coming up with all these neat little trick items like short starters or wrought Iron fire sets, or cool camp furniture, or candle lanterns, or fancy commercial patch lubes and cleaning rod fixtures or cleaning chemicals or ........on and on and on.............." They might have. But for some strange reason they didn't. I'll tell you true, most of the fun stuff you'll see sold at a modern Rendezvous today and used at same has been invented in the past 60 years. That's fine. Folks got money these days and with some exceptions the Rendezvous of today seem to be held and run for the "Trader's Row" folks. (not to take anything away from those folks either, they are just good capitalists filling a niche in a market) But purveyors of fine Authentic Rendezvous goods? Not for the most part. A few but not most. But it is profitable to the Organizers and good clean fun. So what the heck. But I digress. I suppose there are folks out there whom you could fairly characterize as "elitists" and in their zeal to have every one take their sport/avocation/hobby as serious as they do, will insist that if your gona portray such and so, you should do it right. Not what you assume is right but what you can prove is right. Not what you think would have been the common sense way of doing things but what was actually historically done. Bottom line it Rog'! OK, Bottom Line. If you want to play with them you have to play by their rules. If you don't want to, then don't try to walk out on their diamond. Lord knows there are plenty of games going on where it doesn't matter. Your welcome at these other games "if you play by those rules". But I suggest to you and anyone else out there in cyber land listening to my message, that you do no new person a service by telling them that "By gaud this is how they must have done it cause it just makes too much sense to me!". Tell them instead that this is how you do it but you have no proof that such was ever done. At least be that honest about it. Now if you look up at the top of this and every post to this list you will see it is titled " MtMan-List" and if you look down at the bottom of every post to this list you will see the address is, "hist_text list info:" etc. We're here to talk about Mt. Men and we're here to talk about history. We're not here to talk about what they might have done but what they actually did. No elitists here, just folks trying to sort out the truth of it. Any way you care to phrase it, "If they'da had it, they'da used it" ain't the truth. Respectfully, I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #719 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.