From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #856 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Saturday, September 8 2001 Volume 01 : Number 856 In this issue: -       Re: RE: MtMan-List: sewing tips -       Re: RE: MtMan-List: sewing tips -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under -       Re: MtMan-List: after the fact brain-tan? -       MtMan-List: WAS:after the fact brain-tan? NOW: Sanding Scarf skin -       Re: MtMan-List: WAS:after the fact brain-tan? NOW: Sanding Scarf skin -       MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under -       Re: MtMan-List: Buck-skin shirt -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 -       MtMan-List: Dream Catchers....oh yea>>??? 1990???? -       Tetons response to: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 -       Re: Tetons response to: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:33:10 EDT From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: MtMan-List: sewing tips In a message dated 9/7/1 10:14:02 PM, pat_quilter@qscaudio.com writes: <> Addendum to Pat Quilter's shirt making directions: First - the shirt description seems to be that of a euopean-influences pattern. Great! Let me caution you all to NOT make a shirt of a decorated Indian pattern - medicine shirt, etc.. To any Indian who knows his stuff (not TV educated), a white man in such apparel is highly offensive. Second - a white-man shirt made of commercial deer skins is very period. (see "breeches" in Rural Penna. Clothing publication). The colonists and Europeans used leather of their own tanning to make clothes. However, slick-in was the rule for easy on easy off dressing/undressing. They also dyed their leather - sometimes after it had been worn a while to cover up spots and spills. Third - saddle stitching is a very-whiteh-man technique. Indians used the running stitch with a welted seam . . . far more practical for buckskin clothing. Fourth - If you want fringe on your sleeve, do not put it on the bottom (lower) edge of the seam. Believe me! You will end up with an arm pit full of fringe . . . very uncomfortable. Instead -- lay out the sleeve for the desired outline, but make the seam paralel to the top edge of the sleeve. This means a fold rather than a seam along the bottom. If you want a yoke-type body where there is fringe across the back, (or/and front), the fringe on the body connects the two points where the sleeve fringe/seam contacts the body. This is non-Indian and very correct. Third - Why do you want a leather shirt, anyway?? As Osbourn Russell pointed out - it is far more comfortable to be wet in a cloth shirt than a leather one, but when leather must be used, they prefered antelope because it is so much lighter. First time I tried on a leather shirt (1967) I thought I had "arrived". I made and wore two more after that before I discovered the wisdome of Russell. A buckskin jacket (see Miller's paintings of Stewart's French hunter) or a smock are FAR more practical. (an opinion based on considerable experience) Most sincerely Richard James - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:33:43 EDT From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: MtMan-List: sewing tips In a message dated 9/7/1 10:14:02 PM, pat_quilter@qscaudio.com writes: <> - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 20:05:16 EDT From: TerryTwoBear@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under Brother Ole, Granville Martin calif member ist party laguna mountain party.when we put him under all present received a peice of leather with his name,party and #9 that is where i got the number Two Bear - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 22:16:56 EDT From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: after the fact brain-tan? In a message dated 9/7/01 9:57:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, frankf@cox-internet.com writes: << Now, the question, is it possible/practical to do anything at this point that might add some braintanning qualities? Like rubbing with a brain and liver mixture. >> Frank, Maybe you could use the pant legs and shirt bottom to wipe the grease off your hands. After a year or two they should develop that neat black color !!! I understand that would be somewhat period correct!!! :) - -C.Kent - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 22:21:44 EDT From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: WAS:after the fact brain-tan? NOW: Sanding Scarf skin In a message dated 9/7/01 11:55:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rtlahti@msn.com writes: << I would think your best bet would be to disassemble the garments, wet and stretch them, let them dry on that hard smooth surface, sand the scarf skin off best you can with that sander and sheet rock pad, >> Capt. Lahti, Why would the pants need to be disassembled and stretched? Could he not sand off the scarf skin with the pants as they are now. True, the stuff in and near the seams would not come off but the rest would and Frank would not have to contend with parts of his pants that do not really line up just right anymore. If any of y'all have sewn anything you know a little variance can throw the garment dimensions way off!!!! (If you do not believe me...I have a set of dropfront britches that would make Jethro Bodine proud!!!) - -C.Kent - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 19:40:08 -0700 From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: WAS:after the fact brain-tan? NOW: Sanding Scarf skin > Why would the pants need to be disassembled and stretched? Could he not sand > off the scarf skin with the pants as they are now. - -C.Kent, There is usually a good reason for following directions as given. If I were Frank or anyone else who wishes to try this method, I strongly suggest you follow directions. The whole reason for wetting the leather and stretching it flat on a firm surface is to make it possible to actually sand off the scarf skin without sanding holes through the leather but just as important, to make it possible to actually sand it off in the first place. If it is not stretched wet, dryed and kept flat, it is almost impossible to do an even job or get the sanding medium to work. He will actually end up with more leather than he started with since the epidermus layer has a natural tendency to draw up when dry and stretch out when wet. It also is "bunched" up when dry and not under stress so if you try to sand it off , you only take the high spots and the leather generally tends to "roll" around under the sander which just causes further problems. Of course your free to try it. YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:02:57 -0600 From: "Kim & Jen" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Captain Lahti and Teton; Somewhere along the line of my post I must have come across as just barely above a total neophyte. Sorry I left that impression. As for "those of us that have been around a few years" I think that I qualify. For the last 35 years or so living in the Wind Rivers and trapping nearly everything that moves, brain tanning some of my catch/kills, researching most of the Fur Trade Era history of this area, collecting books and manuscripts, etc, and writing articles and working on historical novels of the time period, giving lectures and talks for the public and for skinners alike, stripping and sewing with sinew, living with the Indians themselves and learning their techniques, practicing the survival skills and medicines of the old days, rendezvousing for 28 years and being married to a Lakhota should get me there. Sorry I took exception if none was aimed my way, but that's the way I took it. As far as your responses I pretty much agree with most of what was said with the possible exception of the long fringe really getting in the way and not being used by the Indians themselves when out in the bush, so to speak. Having done many miles of running in 7 inch and longer fringe with little dificulty leads me to this conclusion as well as having the Indian elders (my Lakhota adoptive father who lived in the 1800s as one) tell me of their experiences. I'm not talking of running through the trees, rocks sagebrush, etc., with beaded, ermine trimmed and much adorned leggings. Just the basic legging with fringe, a breachclout and moccasins and perhaps either your rifle or bowcase and quiver. This would have been an impossition for a plains Indian of the Horse Culture as much as being afoot was for the white trapper. As for the "running around in commercial skins" thing, maybe it was a poor choice of words. I have a friend who is 87 years old, has trapped, snow shoed and lived in the wildest conditions that any of us can imagine for 80 years and is wearing buckskins of chrome tanned leather, however the color is correct. This man has forgotten more about the old trapping and Indian ways than most of us will ever be privileged to know. He just isn't into going any farther than he needs to at this stage of his life to sit around the camp fire at rendezvous and impart what knowledge others ask him to impart. My point was that there are those of us out here that might not need the AMM credentials to make us genuine. I considered it years ago and like joining MENSA, I declined. I do know the difference between brain tan and commercial, and period correct and that stuff that passes at the usual rendezvous. I am curious, though, if anyone can provide proof that the Indians didn't use dream catchers before 1840. The Bridger rendezvous and others don't want to allow even "period correct" willow hooped, sinew webbed, feathered and beaded with pre- 1840 beads, dream catchers. I have been personally told that there is no proof that the white man can find that put it's usage befor the 1870's. The Ojibways, Lakhotas and other tribes say that they have used them for several hundred years to thousands of years. Any comments? CallsTheWind - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:53:50 -0700 From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 The Bridger rendezvous and others > don't want to allow even "period correct" willow hooped, sinew webbed, > feathered and beaded with pre- 1840 beads, dream catchers. I have been > personally told that there is no proof that the white man can find that put > it's usage befor the 1870's. > The Ojibways, Lakhotas and other tribes say that they have used them for > several hundred years to thousands of years. > Any comments? > CallsTheWind CallsTheWind, Comments? Yes lots but where to begin? Probably best not to say anything. Oh, what the hell.... We walk a fine line here between a pure discussion of History (which is the chartered purpose of this list) and discussions of what is and isn't historical, correct, period correct, proven, suspected, or believed in a spiritual sense, along with what is OK at various events, that it behooves us all to think through our responses before we make them public for no other reason than to avoid confusion and worse, hard feelings. I'm not going to dig back to what you offered that caused me to go into further detail and explanation. Suffice it to say that we were not talking about what you and I have done in our own personal lives but trying to answer another's need for guidance in the world of "Modern Rendezvous" and "historical re-enactment". I'll stand by my comments and observations of what was historically correct and what is practical for someone portraying a white or Anglicized trapper of the Rocky Mt. Fur Trade Era. Most participants and practitioners do not run around in breech clout and leggings + moc's. They hardly get involved in "living" the life much more than a weekend or week at a time. They don't portray "Plains Indians". They are torn between wanting to get involved and doing it cheaply and doing it right. Most get the wrong image from what their first encounters show them. Few actually get good advice before they have jumped in with both feet but head first into the mud. If I'm asked, I will give my best answers. And I will temper that only by what I perceive the questioner's real intent is. Some will wish to know how to do it absolutely authentically from the get-go, some will have an honest need to cut a corner or two on the way. Different needs. Different answers. Now to your "Dream Catchers". What this and serious re-enacting is all about is authentication. Authenticate them at the original Rendezvous and they are accepted. Fail to do so and they are suspect and may not be accepted by any number of organizations/organizers. Of course you can be the organizer and permit them if you wish. You say the Ojibway and other tribes claim to have had them for several hundred years? Show the evidence. Oral tradition is great for story telling and religious belief but it doesn't cut it as far as authentication of historical correctness is concerned. Oral history often does not mesh with archeological evidence or the lack thereof. It should be listened to with respect for the truth it may contain, but it is not definitive proof. In this end of the game we do not look for proof that it can't be shown not to have been present. We show proof that it was. Or as a purist, it is not accepted. Of course this is all prefaced with the supposition that one is concerned with authenticity in their personal choices or the standards of a particular group or organization of like minded individuals. Modern Rendezvous pay lip service to authenticity. Other groups such as AMM work hard to foster and attain authenticity, though we often find we have fallen short of the mark. But we are entitled to set standards and entitled to believe certain things to be so until proven otherwise because we are not public. And it is not necessary to be AMM to be genuine. As an organization, AMM gets it right more often than not. As individual members, AMM'ers are all pilgrims on a journey with no end. But I think you know what I am saying and where I am coming from. Thank you for your resume of accomplishments, affiliations, knowledge, level of intelligence and live experiences. You are a unique and special individual as are we all. I have no quarrel with you. I only wish to give my best advice and answer when I perceive I have been asked to comment. If I disagree with someone else's answers or comments I will try to enter the discussion with good manners and grace. If I did not do that, you have my apology. As always, I remain............. YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 07:51:08 -0400 From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 I agree with Capt. Lahti remarks on AMM being a never ending search. I am not a member, though at one time I fought to be one and then saw the errors of my way. ;-) Men need men things and the ladies can teach them men. Rather be a contrary lady with lots of little opinions based on my research, travels and Native people I have learned from and then help a few "men" become members. There are several women on this list who could fulfill all the requirements. Also, there is going to be a great conference or symposium by some very learned people, Native and white, at Great Falls, Montana if you really like to argue a point. They can give you an ear full about Dream Catchers. I will be there.....drop by. http://www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com/seminar_on_native_american_mater.htm And on with the remarks on Dream Catchers, in the many museums and private collections of the North Plains and Central Plains, written research among some very noted collectors, historians and even ledger drawings, I have not seen one of these Dream Catchers. But I have, in my 40+ years have heard the changing stories and names of the item and how they have developed into a huge tourist item and that now every tribe has a "history" of a Dream catcher. Most of this seems to have started during the 1960s as a tourist item for the Powwows and exploded from there in to the very outlandish hoops of today. What tourist is going to buy a plain little piece of round wood with fake sinew on it. They want gaudy and a good story to go with that prized "Indian item". Now I have seen willow hoops in a few New England and Plains collections that date back to the mid. 1800s that were used in games or as practice targets for throwing sticks or spears. But the so called "Dream Catcher" of today with all its feathers, beads and furry things does not seem to have existed in the old times and not by that name. The Great Lakes tribes and area did make a "little" round hoop to sometimes hang on a cradle board to amuse the child...and that went with the old stories of the "Spider" and were mostly related to catching bad dreams before they got to the baby or out to spread to the world...I forget which at this moment. But there are so many stories of that hoop and now the true meaning of the item is getting lost in the "New Age" lingo. What is period correct when referring to the materials. Are you really referring to "real" sinew and a few old time beads. As to the feathers, is that eagle, hawk or owl or Prairie Chicken, Canadian Geese, Swan, or dove? Or are we talking the synthetic plastic sinew, reproduction old time beads and pheasant, turkey, or colored chicken feathers? These are just a few observations, opinions or insights from the side bars. Linda Holley http:www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 07:34:15 -0700 From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under Mr. Huber, Slim had a number=347 Youre sausage and biscuit eatin buddy Ole # 718 - ---------- >From: "Larry Huber" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under >Date: Fri, Sep 7, 2001, 7:26 AM > >Did Slim Pickins have a number or was he just an informed fan of the AMM? >An "honorary" member, so to speak? > >Larry Huber >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 7:59 AM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under > > >> Ole >> >> Slim Pickins should be on this list as well. I know he paid for three >years >> membership. Once on sign-up and a renewal for two years. >> >> Dick James >> >> P.S. Who is this Ole at the top of the deceased list??? >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 07:46:09 -0700 From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under Terry, I finnaly found his original entry in the ledger, his number was Gray Beard # 8. YMOS Ole # 718 - ---------- >From: TerryTwoBear@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under >Date: Fri, Sep 7, 2001, 5:05 PM > >Brother Ole, Granville Martin calif member ist party >laguna mountain party.when we put him under all present > received a peice of leather with his name,party and #9 > that is where i got the number > Two Bear > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 07:22:34 -0700 (PDT) From: scott mcmahon Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buck-skin shirt -Well I was waiting for this to come up and it may have been covered already as I still have a few emails I haven't read but I'll add my thoughts anyway....If you use this method you will have a nice pair of buckskin levis, NOT a period pair of buckskin trousers! If you really want a pair of period trousers get a pattern from Past Patterns(can be found through Alter Years out of California?) for straight leg mid 19th century trousers. They will fit properly and will also have the "look" of period trousers ie. the waist will be in the proper place(middle fall button at the navel). They are drop front which is not outdated or uncommon for the 30's as some would have you believe. You will have to use alittle ingenuity since leather is thicker than wools and satinettes when seams are concerned, generally around the waist band but in the end you'll be happy with the outcome. Just my thoughts! Scott McMahon _______________________________________________________ http://inbox.excite.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 12:58:12 EDT From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 In a message dated 9/8/1 3:46:50 AM, kimanjen@wyoming.com writes: << I am curious, though, if anyone can provide proof that the Indians didn't use dream catchers before 1840. >> I am looking for evidence that they existed before 1990. Any documentation?? RJames - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 13:07:30 -0400 From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Dream catchers, chrome tan disguising, I "couldda' been AMM, but didn't wanna", "if they'd a had it"...Crap like this just clogs the bandwith and belongs on a porkeating, flatlander list. Learning the way it was done and trying to correctly emulate it the best that you can. Sharing of knowledge, research, experience and mebby some humor is what belongs here, I think. My $.02. Am I being a hardheaded prick again??? D "Imagine my disappointment when I found out "Baby Back Ribs" weren't from babies" - -Me - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 11:23:34 -0600 From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 > I am looking for evidence that they existed before 1990. Any documentation?? > RJames Something to consider. Hoops have been documented in games. They were used as targets. I doubt that they were a mountain man thing here in Montana being used as dream catchers. But the idea and use of hoops is very old. Cheers, Walt Park City, Montana - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 13:29:15 EDT From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 In a message dated 9/8/1 12:51:04 PM, tipis@mediaone.net writes: << . . . can give you an ear full about Dream Catchers. I will be there....>> Linda Just read your several paragraph message - again. You strike me as a very perceptive lady -- one in touch with reality. I promise never again to delete a message from tipis @ mediaone again without reading. Most Sincerly Richard James - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 15:27:23 -0400 From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 I am????? Not according to my students and Vice Principle. Was that a compliment? And is my ear big enough? is this good news?? Who is buying the drinks? and I am staying at the Ponderosa Inn where is symposium will be held. Sounds like there will be one hell of a good party, discussion on anything and it will go into the night. Cannot wait for the "show and tell/sells" that will happen in many of the rooms. And whose tribe of Dream Catchers are we going to discuss into the night, Seminole???? Want to get my Dream Catcher earrings on along with my Dream Catcher necklaces and Dream Catcher watch. Want to make sure I "catch" everything you say...and how long it takes.....;-). And you mean to say you have been deleting my words of sometimes humorous wisdom..? I will buy you a drink for being brave. Look for the large lady with the miniature Crow horse collar around her neck. You can't miss me. And you won't be able to miss me without the collar....I have a tendency to run over people. You can also listen for the Southern accent and the screams of laughter. Love to laugh....love to win a good point and love to learn. So don't hesitate to come up and say....I'm Richard James from the internet and give me a good hug....I always need a good hug. Linda Holley http://www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com SWzypher@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/8/1 12:51:04 PM, tipis@mediaone.net writes: > > << . . . can give you an ear full about Dream Catchers. I will be > there....>> > > Linda > Just read your several paragraph message - again. You strike me as a very > perceptive lady -- one in touch with reality. > > I promise never again to delete a message from tipis @ mediaone again without > reading. > > Most Sincerly > Richard James > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 15:47:42 -0400 From: Linda Holley Subject: MtMan-List: Dream Catchers....oh yea>>??? 1990???? Linda Holley wrote: > I think we can find plenty of documentation of before 1990. How about 1950??? > 1940? 1930? or so. There are plenty of documentation's after 1950....before that > there is a great deal of vagueness. > Each site is different: > http://www.nativetech.org/dreamcat/drmabout.html > http://www.nativetech.org/dreamcat/dreamfaq.html > http://www.nativetech.org/dreamcat/dreamcat.html > > I am enclosing this web site on catchers.....dig through it.....there are some > very interesting items of information. > > Linda Holley > > SWzypher@aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 9/8/1 3:46:50 AM, kimanjen@wyoming.com writes: > > > > << I am curious, though, if anyone can provide proof that the Indians > > > > didn't use dream catchers before 1840. >> > > > > I am looking for evidence that they existed before 1990. Any documentation?? > > RJames > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 15:30:36 -0600 From: Todd Glover Subject: Tetons response to: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Calls the Wind, I'm glad you didn't take any offense, certainly none was meant. I was about to compose a response when I glanced down and noticed the good Capt's message. He summed it up rather well as usual. My only other comment is concerning your 87 year old friend as an example. I've no doubt that he is a consummate outdoorsman and trapper with skills I may never dream of matching. Does this qualify him as an expert on the correct and authentic portrayal of the 19th century Rocky Mountain trapper? Not necessarily, unless you failed to mention other experience he has. I suspect that if we talked to him about period correctness and authenticity, that he would merely chuckle at the question. It reminds me of questioning Native Americans about authenticity and correctness. Some have scoffed and said "Of course it's correct and authentic, I'm and Indian and I made it so it's authentic." Maybe I'm a little sensitive on this topic having just returned from the gathering at Fort Bridger, where a large concentration of the most outlandish fantasy Mountain Man costumes this side of a Davy Crockett movie were displayed. There was one fellow, well known by now, who struts around in an exact chrome tanned duplicate of a pair of Oshkosh bib overalls complete with hammer loop and tool pockets! What is going through his mind!!?? And what about those ten or twelve "Mountain Men" who lined up on the famed bridge wearing nothing but breechcloths, where they all bent over and displayed a sizeable portion of their rear ends to the delight of the photo snapping crowd of ladies. The "Chippendale Free Trappers" at their finest. Never saw that in a Miller painting. I guess I just take some affront to those fantasy costumed impostors strutting around with a smirk of self congratulations on their faces. I can excuse the greenhorn for lack of knowledge. For the old timer and professed "veteran" it's inexcusable. "Teton" Todd D. Glover http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 22:06:42 +0000 From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 D, No, for one, I don't think your being a hard headed prick.(of course, I don't know you personally)but, the sentiments you voice here, I agree with whole heartedly. The proof should not be on us to prove Indians DIDN'T use dreamcatchers pre-1840. It should be that we prove that they DID use them before 1840. I've never seen any documentation on dream catchers anywhere before 1840. I feel pretty dern silly even writing about this issue. But, this thread proves what I have been trying to say on other threads. Some of us research then go with the documentation to be as authentic as possible and learn about the trade the way it really was, others get a cockamamie idea from who knows where, and try to make the documentation fit their fantasy. That simply is not the way to do research. In the 1970-1980's it was god's eyes, now, it's dreamcatchers. What fad will come along next is anybodys guess. In a good way, Don Secondine >From: "Double Edge Forge" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 >Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 13:07:30 -0400 > >Dream catchers, chrome tan disguising, I "couldda' been AMM, but didn't >wanna", > "if they'd a had it"...Crap like this just clogs the bandwith and belongs >on a porkeating, flatlander list. Learning the way it was done and trying >to >correctly emulate it the best that you can. Sharing of knowledge, research, >experience and mebby some humor is what belongs here, I think. >My $.02. > >Am I being a hardheaded prick again??? >D > > >"Imagine my disappointment when I found out "Baby Back Ribs" weren't from >babies" >-Me > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 22:20:44 +0000 From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: Tetons response to: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 I believe you've hit the nail square on the head again, Teton! Hope to share a fire with you one of these days. Later, Don Secondine >From: Todd Glover >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Tetons response to: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 >Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 15:30:36 -0600 > >Calls the Wind, > > I'm glad you didn't take any offense, certainly none was meant. >I was about to compose a response when I glanced down and noticed the >good Capt's >message. He summed it up rather well as usual. > My only other comment is concerning your 87 year old friend as an >example. I've no doubt that >he is a consummate outdoorsman and trapper with skills I may never dream >of matching. Does this qualify him >as an expert on the correct and authentic portrayal of the 19th century >Rocky Mountain trapper? Not necessarily, >unless you failed to mention other experience he has. I suspect that if >we talked to him about period correctness >and authenticity, that he would merely chuckle at the question. It >reminds me of questioning Native Americans >about authenticity and correctness. Some have scoffed and said "Of course >it's correct and authentic, I'm and Indian >and I made it so it's authentic." > Maybe I'm a little sensitive on this topic having just returned >from the gathering at Fort Bridger, where a large concentration of the >most outlandish fantasy Mountain Man costumes this side of a Davy >Crockett movie were displayed. There was one fellow, well known by now, >who struts around in an exact chrome tanned duplicate of a pair of >Oshkosh bib overalls complete with hammer loop and tool pockets! >What is going through his mind!!?? And what about those ten or twelve >"Mountain Men" who lined up >on the famed bridge wearing nothing but breechcloths, where they all bent >over and displayed a sizeable portion >of their rear ends to the delight of the photo snapping crowd of ladies. >The "Chippendale Free Trappers" at their finest. >Never saw that in a Miller painting. > I guess I just take some affront to those fantasy costumed >impostors strutting around with a smirk of self congratulations >on their faces. I can excuse the greenhorn for lack of knowledge. For the >old timer and professed "veteran" it's >inexcusable. > > >"Teton" Todd D. Glover >http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 16:01:17 -0700 From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 > Am I being a hardheaded prick again??? > D Yes, but we have come to expect it so don't go changing. You'll throw us all off balance. Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 20:06:48 EDT From: TerryTwoBear@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under Brother Ole, thanks Two Bear - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 20:44:25 -0400 From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 " don't go changing. You'll throw us all off balance. " Rog, Don't you worry none..Won't do it.... I have to be as I am, to balance that sickening "understanding & nurturing" portion of this hobby... D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Knives and Iron Accouterments http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning." - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 20:42:13 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 linda--- darling you going to be at the alifi---I still have a unborn buffilo skin here--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! 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