From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #918 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Monday, December 31 2001 Volume 01 : Number 918 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please -       MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #917 -       Re: MtMan-List: Need ideas for trip -       MtMan-List: Stitching -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please -       Re: MtMan-List: Stitching -       Re: MtMan-List: Stitching -       Re: MtMan-List: Stitching -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please -       Re: MtMan-List: Stitching -       MtMan-List: Re:asking for info please -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please -       Re: MtMan-List: Stitching -       Re: MtMan-List: Re:asking for info please -       Re: MtMan-List: Stitching ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 07:31:36 -0700 From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please Don, I would tend to agree with Hawk. Most people tend to think of the hawken rifle as a short barrelled, half stocked, percussion rifle with a round patch box. Which is what all the movies and the men who came late in the fur trade peroid brought west with them (if they were able to get it). But the earliest Hawken shop, in St.Louis ws in 1815. Chances are they started out repairing guns, but it evidently wasn't long they were refreshing the barrels and making their own, for by 1838 they had a small factory there. The early guns made there were full stocked, flinters with a large bore .53). Marino Medina's rifle is located in the Col. State Hist.Soc. (along with his pouch, riding boots and accessories of his pouch) and the last I heard was made some time between 1833 - 1842. The whole Hawken story that most know of today is from what they read in some famous, late peroid books and the slanted view of movie makers even as far back as the 1950's. While in fact, they had a long life which spanned the entire fur trade peroid and afterwards. We even had a small Hawken repair shop in Denver during the 1860's. I own and shoot one the early flint rifles made a few years ago from a nice Sharon kit. Looks alot like the Lancaster pattern, but thicker in the wrist. I do agree that Great Plains rifle is a good rifle for those who want a mass produced one made today. I have a few friends who own these and use them. They are tough duriable guns that you don't mind scratching up. But too many people over the last decade gave the blanket phase "too late" for the Hawken because very few records are found of them being sold in the west at rendevous and forts, but Charles Hanson, jr. in his article for Buckskinning V (Trade Goods for Rendezvous) shows one in a picture taken for that piece. The same picture is done in color on page III of color section in the middle of the book. On page 70, he lists some guns which made it out to the rendevous and in 1834 6 Hawkens were sold, 1836- 10 and in 1837 10 more. So, to me, they do fit in as a authenic rifle for the time frame. mike. hawknest4@juno.com wrote: > DON > not wanting to let you mislead the guy who asked about hawken rifles but > believe you need to look in John beard's books on hawken rifles---there > are two of them---the hawken rifle the mountain man's choice and 15 years > in the hawken lode---ref the chronological record of events for hawkens > in both books ---1822 s hawken comes too st louis to join jacob hawken in > the gun making trade---in 1836 only s hawken listed in st louis---no j. > hawken---so both a early and a transition hawken is in the time > span---last usage of the J& s stamp of documented hawkens was 1824---J. > P. Gemner bought out the hawken shop after the fur trade period but > continued to stamp S Hawken on guns for many years after he bought the > shop from sam--- > > sorry pard---just for your info---and remember there are only 4 > documented flint hawken rifles by jake and sam and only 2 > fullstocks---but their father made a bunch---also jake and sam worked at > harpers ferry and if you look real close a hawken rifle is basically a > 1803 harpers ferry rifle and then combine it with a english sporting > rifle and you have a hawken--- bout that simple--- > > Nuff said--- > > "HAWK" > Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) > & "The Arkansas Underhammers" > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 > E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: > http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce > > On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 13:45:31 +0000 "darlene secondine" > writes: > > Howdy Mac, > > If your going to carry a Hawken, the Great Plains Hawken is the > > best > > factory made Hawken for the money. None of the other factory made > > Hawkens > > even come close to resembling a Hawken. But, the S. Hawken is to > > late for > > the rendesvous period. It's one of those details that is acceptable > > but not > > quite correct. The earlier J&S Hawken is authentic to the period, > > however. > > The old trade fusil is a real authentic to the period way to go. > > Read > > Hanson's The Hawken Rifle:It's place in history, for more info on > > Hawken > > rifles in the fur trade period. Hanson also put out a book on Trade > > Guns > > that is well worth thee time to read. Until you can upgrade, carry > > the GPR > > Hawken with pride. She made meat! > > Your friend in the Ohio Country, > > Don Secondine > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 08:33:46 -0700 From: "Kim & Jen" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #917 > > ------------------------------ > Hallo 1838 Rendezvous in Riverton Wyoming will be from June 16th till June 22nd. If you are interested, contact me off list and I will send you more info. jenaka > Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:09:15 -0600 (CST) > From: "S. Gilbert" > Subject: MtMan-List: Need ideas for trip > > Hallo the Camp, > > Folks, I'm in need of your suggestions. Brian and I are finally going > to Yellowstone Park this spring. We are hoping to go the first two weeks in > June. We would love to attend an event or two along the way out and/or > back - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 09:38:30 -0700 From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need ideas for trip Sue, The Fort Henry Buckskinners have a rendezvous on the second weekend of June. This is just east of Ashton, Idaho, on the road into the park at the West Yellowstone entrance. The 'voo is held on the site of Camp Henry, which was used by Andrew Henry in the winter of 1810/11. The route into the park will also take you past Henry's Lake which is very historic and mentioned by many mountain men. The first weekend of June there is a rendezvous at Massacre Rocks, which is SW of Pocatello, ID. This area is also historic as Fort Hall is nearby. The Snake River Valley was very widely used by the mountain men. At Pinedale, WY is the Mountain Man Museum, which has some nice displays, including one by the AMM. Pinedale area is Green River Country, and not far from Pinedale is the site of many rendezvous at the mouth of Horse Creek with Green River. Fort Bonneville is also right there. Good luck and have a safe journey. Allen At 07:09 PM 12/30/2001 -0600, you wrote: > >Hallo the Camp, > > Folks, I'm in need of your suggestions. Brian and I are finally going >to Yellowstone Park this spring. We are hoping to go the first two weeks in >June. We would love to attend an event or two along the way out and/or >back. We are heading west from Iowa. The route is undecided, as we will >go whichever way we can catch a Voo. Anywhere between the Black Hills >and Yellowstone. I've been looking and can't find any listings for events in >Wyoming. Is it too early? Any help or suggestions would be very welcome. >Thank you. > >Sue Gilbert >6 Beaver Camp > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 11:18:21 -0600 From: Richard Bacon Subject: MtMan-List: Stitching It's been a while since I've been to this sight, but I need some advice on stitching. This past spring I started to make a leather shirt. I came to this sight several times for advice and I must say all of you were very helpful, My hides were all commercially tanned so to make them look more like brained tanned I soaked them in Ritz dye remover.That worked pretty good to make them the whiter and more the same color. I made a shirt out of a old sheet as a pattern and used that to cut the leather. Then spring and summer came and my project got set aside. It sat through the hunting season too. But now it's time to pick up where I left off. To sew it together. I bought a spool of sinew to use. I did a small test strip two different ways. The first part I went through the two pieces with the needle on one side then back through the other side. The other test section I went through one side then brought the needle back up and through the same side so the string looped over the seem. That seems to make a stronger stitch, but is one better then the other or more period correct? Also, as my project sat over time the sinew sat on a piece of white cloth and left a yellow stain on it. As I sewed my test leather together some yellow came off on my hands. The color of the sinew is alot darker then my hides now. Will that bleed into my shirt over time? I will appreciate any advice. Thanks, Dick Bacon - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 17:52:47 +0000 From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please Michael, I have Baird's books in my library also. But, I don't recommend them to people wanting to know about rifles available in the rendesvous period. I think Hanson had a much better handle on the situation. He wasn't as infatuated with the "HAWKEN" as Baird seems to be. Hanson just looked at the facts. I also am familiar with the fact of Hawken's going to rondys but I don't beleive they were the so salled classic S. Hawken style of gun that we all love and admire. And the purported to be flintlock Hawken rifles that I have looked at, were not originally flint. i.e.one in the Ressel collection, and the Smithsonian Hawken was way to late for the rondy's. When Art showed me the rifle, I brought to his attention the reasons why I felt that the lock was not original to the gun and after I pointed out some details that he overlooked, he agreed with me. Now, if you can tell me where these flint hawkens with iron furniture are, I would like to study them. I know of an original flint hawken, but it is a brass mounted longrifle that resembled any other longrifle made in Maryland circa 1800-1810. There is also a halfstock percussion rifle I saw in an old Muzzleblast mag that I have and it looks like a maryland rifle also. That one is engraved in script S. Hawken. I will let you know which issue as soon as I find it. This gun was dated 1830's and was brass and silver mounted in percussion. Michael, I appreciate your concern, but I do not think I mislead anyone. Your friend, Don Secondine >From: hawknest4@juno.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please >Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 02:37:19 -0500 > >DON >not wanting to let you mislead the guy who asked about hawken rifles but >believe you need to look in John beard's books on hawken rifles---there >are two of them---the hawken rifle the mountain man's choice and 15 years >in the hawken lode---ref the chronological record of events for hawkens >in both books ---1822 s hawken comes too st louis to join jacob hawken in >the gun making trade---in 1836 only s hawken listed in st louis---no j. >hawken---so both a early and a transition hawken is in the time >span---last usage of the J& s stamp of documented hawkens was 1824---J. >P. Gemner bought out the hawken shop after the fur trade period but >continued to stamp S Hawken on guns for many years after he bought the >shop from sam--- > >sorry pard---just for your info---and remember there are only 4 >documented flint hawken rifles by jake and sam and only 2 >fullstocks---but their father made a bunch---also jake and sam worked at >harpers ferry and if you look real close a hawken rifle is basically a >1803 harpers ferry rifle and then combine it with a english sporting >rifle and you have a hawken--- bout that simple--- > >Nuff said--- > > "HAWK" >Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) >& "The Arkansas Underhammers" >854 Glenfield Dr. >Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 >E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: >http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce > > > >On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 13:45:31 +0000 "darlene secondine" > writes: > > Howdy Mac, > > If your going to carry a Hawken, the Great Plains Hawken is the > > best > > factory made Hawken for the money. None of the other factory made > > Hawkens > > even come close to resembling a Hawken. But, the S. Hawken is to > > late for > > the rendesvous period. It's one of those details that is acceptable > > but not > > quite correct. The earlier J&S Hawken is authentic to the period, > > however. > > The old trade fusil is a real authentic to the period way to go. > > Read > > Hanson's The Hawken Rifle:It's place in history, for more info on > > Hawken > > rifles in the fur trade period. Hanson also put out a book on Trade > > Guns > > that is well worth thee time to read. Until you can upgrade, carry > > the GPR > > Hawken with pride. She made meat! > > Your friend in the Ohio Country, > > Don Secondine > > > > > > >________________________________________________________________ >GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! >Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! >Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:56:51 EST From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stitching Dick, If you are using a 'spool' of sinew, is it fair to assume that it's artificial sinew? If so it's nylon, definitely NOT 'period correct' and will detract from the beauty/value/correctness of the finished product. Also, the color from the artificial product WILL bleed into the finished shirt. Seen it happen, and I don't think that even Rit Dye Remover will help after that happens. I would suggest you put feelers out to the list and see if somebody has some sinew available; a real possibility now as we are moving out of hunting season. Barney - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 13:42:17 EST From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stitching Dick, Sounds like what you are using is the running stitch and the whip stitch (loops back over the seam) Both are correct. I think the whip stitch is stronger and I like it for seams. It makes a seam that will rub...but you can mash the seam flat with the back of your hawk or a machine hammer for that matter. I would advise that if you have no already cut your leather to transfer your pattern to a stout poster board that will NOT move when it is laid on the leather. Also, if your leather is not pretty much flat (lots of ripples, humps, bumps, folds, etc) spend some time getting it as flat as possible. Also, the seam allowance for leather is much different than cloth and stress areas will eventually wear...just give yourself enough room and seam allowance that the stitch does not tear out of the leather after a season of sitting, stretching, climbing, falling, etc. By the by, I use a double strand of sinew for clothing and mocs...one piece thru eye of needle and the loose ends tied together. Just stronger, but that artificial sinew is pretty tough stuff anyway! Not trying to tell you what to do or how to do it but hate to see good leather not turn out just like you want it...as I have had that experience before and it is not fun after all the effort. Let us know how it turns out! - -C.Kent, soon to be a.k.a. "PinchedToes" (see reference to leather seams and my lateset moc efforts!! ) - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 15:37:39 EST From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stitching - --part1_167.6748ac2.29622693_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/31, C.Kent writes in responce to Dick: << ----(stuff deleted)---- Both are correct. I think the whip stitch is stronger and I like it for seams. It makes a seam that will rub...but you can mash the seam flat with the back of your hawk or a machine hammer for that matter. ----(stuff deleted)---- >> I would agree on the whip stitch, plus I would whip along the entire seam and then repeat in reverse along the seam agian. Just my thoughts. Longshot - --part1_167.6748ac2.29622693_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/31, C.Kent writes in responce to Dick:

<< ----(stuff deleted)---- Both are correct.  I think the whip stitch is stronger and I like it for seams.  It makes a seam that will rub...but you can mash the seam flat with the back of your hawk or a machine hammer for that matter. ----(stuff deleted)---- >>

I would agree on the whip stitch, plus I would whip along the entire seam and then repeat in reverse along the seam agian.  Just my thoughts.

Longshot - --part1_167.6748ac2.29622693_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 16:02:32 EST From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please In a message dated 12/31/01 12:34:21 AM Pacific Standard Time, hawknest4@juno.com writes: << believe you need to look in John beard's books on hawken rifles---there are two of them---the hawken rifle the mountain man's choice and 15 years in the hawken lode-- Also look at Charles E. Hanson's book "The Plains Rifle". He doesn't agree with Beard on all counts, but they both were very familiar with the Hawken Brothers' work. < -in 1836 only s hawken listed in st louis---no j. hawken-- Hanson says Jake stayed in St. Louis until his death from Cholera in 1849 at age 66. Says that that's when the barrel stamp became "S. Hawkin, St. Louis". DOES NOT say if Jake was still working with Sam after '36 Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stitching Dick, It sounds like you are using artificial sinew. Either of the stitchs you are using are period correct and will work. The running stitch, going in and back on the opposite side, works well but it does leave a little thicker seam. The whip stitch, the one over the seam and putting needle through the same side, is also correct and strong. It has the advantage of making a thinner seam. If you would sew a welt, another piece of leather between the two pieces, I think it is even stronger, looks good, and you can take a rock and flatten the seam thinner. This is common practice on moccasins. I have used it on other garments and equipment and found it looks and works well. If you are worried about historically correct seams you should not be using artificial sinew. You will also find that artificial sinew will "fray" badly where it is rubbed and it can also cut the leather. To be more historically correct use waxed linen or hemp. I find them very strong, and they are correct. Good Luck. YMOS Bead Shooter - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Bacon" To: "hist_text-digest" Subject: MtMan-List: Stitching >...I need some advice on stitching....I will appreciate any advice.> > Dick Bacon - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 21:50:19 +0000 From: "darlene secondine" Subject: MtMan-List: Re:asking for info please Howdy boys, Nauga, Hawk, and Mike, I think we have a misunderstanding. I never said, "No Hawken ever went to a rondyvoo."Nor do I agree with such a statement. I said or at least meant for people on this list to understand is, the late S.Hawken style rifle that the Great Plains Rifle tries to emulate, never saw a rondesvous. There are a lot of changes that the Hawken rifle went through in it's era of production. Muzzle Blasts April 1981 has an interesting article on a J&S Hawken halfstock rifle. This rifle is dated 1836, silver mounted and a very fancy presentation rifle. In Johnston's "Accouterments II", pp.27, is another Hawken rifle, simply marked S. Hawken St. Louis, fullstock, percussion. Both of these rifles and the Modena rifle, I believe to be pre-1840, and thereby authentic styles to be carried at rondyvoo. One thing about Baird's research is that he did point out the details of the Hawken that changed over the years of manufacture. Respectfully submitted, Don Secondine _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 15:33:10 -0700 From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please "...But, the S. Hawken is too late for the rendesvous period. It's one of those details that is acceptable but not quite correct. The earlier J&S Hawken is authentic to the period, however. The old trade fusil is a real authentic to the period way to go...." Don, I guess I should of read the original message of yours better. I thought you had said the Hawkens were too late- my mistake. I jumped on that subject, because it is one that I don't want to see it passed on to another generation. I've been thinking now for about six months how the fur trade period is the historians' knock around boy. All the other people who recreate various time frames have a easy time pointing out how this group did so wrong with so many things in the past. I am so glad that there are many men and women today who try their best to do it right. And maybe that is why I point out things when I see them, the credibility of the fur trade is important to me. For too long I seen so called experts go around at our camps wearing funny clothes, telling out landish tall tales and even go around with arrows sticking out of their backs all in the name of the fur trade. Maybe you have seen people like this. I do not knock any one who is just starting out, they have to figure out at what level they want to be involved in this hobby. But, those that draw a crowd and spout out meaningless facts and assumptions- I have no time for. It is time for those who do the fur trade to step forward and do it right. The true stories that are recorded in the journals are just as interesting (and some times more than the made up ones), the lives that these men lived I would match up with any from any other time frame. And the information that is available to all of us is easy to get. If some one doesn't have the time or can't their hands on good books on the period, I know of a group of men who know the facts and are so easy to talk to. They don't with hold information just to make sure it shows up in a book first. Or lord over a pilgrim to make themselves feel big. Well, enough of my bandwagon, it will be the last of the year, I promise! Don, it is always good to talk to (even email) someone who knows alittle about a time I love. Sorry again. mike. > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 01:54:51 +0000 From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please No problem Mike, I'm glad you wrote back with your thoughts on accurate research v.s. assumptions. I personally love Hawken rifles and have a .58 late Hawken copy myself. It's the only percussion rifle I own, the rest are flint longrifles and trade guns. I stand in awe of the frontiersmen of days gone by also, and enjoy talking to other fellows who want to see the truth told about them. Our national history is too rich and too precious to be fooled with. I hope to see you around a fire sometime. Happy New Year to all, Don Secondine >From: Mike Moore >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please >Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 15:33:10 -0700 > >"...But, the S. Hawken is too late for the rendesvous period. >It's one of those details that is acceptable but not quite correct. >The earlier J&S Hawken is authentic to the period, however. >The old trade fusil is a real authentic to the period way to go...." > >Don, > I guess I should of read the original message of yours better. I >thought you had said the Hawkens were too late- my mistake. >I jumped on that subject, because it is one that I don't want to see >it passed on to another generation. I've been thinking now for about >six months how the fur trade period is the historians' knock around boy. >All the other people who recreate various time frames have a easy time >pointing out how this group did so wrong with so many things in the past. >I am so glad that there are many men and women today who try their best to >do it right. And maybe that is why I point out things when I see them, the >credibility of the fur trade is important to me. For too long I seen so >called >experts go around at our camps wearing funny clothes, telling out landish >tall tales and even go around with arrows sticking out of their backs all >in the >name of the fur trade. > Maybe you have seen people like this. I do not knock any one who is >just >starting out, they have to figure out at what level they want to be >involved in >this hobby. But, those that draw a crowd and spout out meaningless facts >and assumptions- I have no time for. It is time for those who do the fur >trade >to step forward and do it right. The true stories that are recorded in the >journals >are just as interesting (and some times more than the made up ones), the >lives >that >these men lived I would match up with any from any other time frame. And >the >information that is available to all of us is easy to get. If some one >doesn't >have the >time or can't their hands on good books on the period, I know of a group of >men >who know the facts and are so easy to talk to. They don't with hold >information >just >to make sure it shows up in a book first. Or lord over a pilgrim to make >themselves >feel big. > Well, enough of my bandwagon, it will be the last of the year, I >promise! >Don, >it is always good to talk to (even email) someone who knows alittle about a >time >I love. >Sorry again. > mike. > > > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 20:00:59 -0600 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stitching Bead Shooter wrote: If you are worried about historically correct seams you should not be using artificial sinew. You will also find that artificial sinew will "fray" badly where it is rubbed and it can also cut the leather. To be more historically correct use waxed linen or hemp. I find them very strong, and they are correct. Good Luck. Exactly right. You can easily find linen thread for very little money. Another instance of being correct without spending a lot. Jas Townsend has linen thread.....click.....and order......here: http://www.jastown.com/bulk/th-325.htm Lanney Ratcliff - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 23:35:13 EST From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:asking for info please In a message dated 12/31/01 1:51:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com writes: << Nauga, Hawk, and Mike, I think we have a misunderstanding. I never said, "No Hawken ever went to a rondyvoo."Nor do I agree with such a statement. I said or at least meant for people on this list to understand is, the late S.Hawken style rifle that the Great Plains Rifle tries to emulate, never saw a rondesvous. >> No misunderstanding. I understood what you said & agree, but there are others who don't & my comment was to point out there ARE others who haven't studied the subject & spout half truths like were printed in the past by not so reputable individuals who made the rash statements "No Hawkins or percussion locks at Rendezvous". Your statement was entirely correct if we go by Hanson's date (1849) on when Sam changed his barrel stamp. At Beard's date (1836), there may have been some early "S. Hawkins" make it to Rendezvous in '37 & '38. I was looking for the date associated with the Modina rifle, but was unable to find it. That could have shed some light on the subject because it was a late style. OK, now how do we deal with this conflict of information? NM - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 21:27:28 -0700 From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stitching a whip stitch with a leather welt is hard to beat. the welt protects your thread from being exposed. it lasts much longer that way. by the way get rid of the artificial sinew and go get you a roll of saddlers linen thread it is not only correct it is superior to artificial sinew for sewing leather. Tom - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Bacon" To: "hist_text-digest" Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 10:18 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Stitching > It's been a while since I've been to this sight, but I need some advice > on stitching. This past spring I started to make a leather shirt. I came > to this sight several times for advice and I must say all of you were > very helpful, My hides were all commercially tanned so to make them look > more like brained tanned I soaked them in Ritz dye remover.That worked > pretty good to make them the whiter and more the same color. I made a > shirt out of a old sheet as a pattern and used that to cut the leather. > Then spring and summer came and my project got set aside. It sat through > the hunting season too. But now it's time to pick up where I left off. > To sew it together. I bought a spool of sinew to use. I did a small test > strip two different ways. The first part I went through the two pieces > with the needle on one side then back through the other side. The other > test section I went through one side then brought the needle back up and > through the same side so the string looped over the seem. That seems to > make a stronger stitch, but is one better then the other or more period > correct? Also, as my project sat over time the sinew sat on a piece of > white cloth and left a yellow stain on it. As I sewed my test leather > together some yellow came off on my hands. The color of the sinew is > alot darker then my hides now. Will that bleed into my shirt over time? > I will appreciate any advice. > Thanks, > Dick Bacon > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #918 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.