From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #931 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Monday, January 21 2002 Volume 01 : Number 931 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses -       RE: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses -       Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses -       MtMan-List: use of horses -       Re: MtMan-List: use of horses -       Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses -       Re: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses -       MtMan-List: Horses -       Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses -       MtMan-List: Sue- great horse debate, eh guys. (for Ned) -       RE: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses -       Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses -       RE: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses -       Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses -       Re: MtMan-List: Last reply to Mike Powell ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 07:42:38 -0700 From: "Ned Eddins" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses Wynn, You wrote: The only time horses were a liability was when they did not have them. Show me a trapping brigade that was not on the move 5 out of 7 days during the trapping season and I will show you three that were. Show me a trapper without some of Ned's liabilities and I will show you a foot sore, hungry, and poor fellow. There are mentions of "American horses", for instance, Wislizenus (1839) makes an interesting comparison between them. I agree that most horses were from Spanish origins but the American horses were often prized possessions. I appreciated your comments because it stimulates me to think about these things. Would you please explain how to trap a beaver off of a horse. Since the purpose of the brigades was to trap beaver, it is hard to believe they spent 70% of the time riding unless they could trap off the horses. Here are some examples of Mountain Men not riding horses: .we continued trapping on foot with fair success for about six weeks - Journal of a Mountain Man, James Clyman page 30 - internet excerpt page 21. .On New Years day, 1827, Sublette (Bill) and Harris (Moses)said farewell to their friends and set out (from Cache Valley) on snowshoes for the East, their only traveling companion an Indian pack dog.Bill Sublette Mountain Man, John E. Sunder page 71. As a partner in Smith, Jackson, and Sublette, Sublette would have taken horses if any were there. By the way, before reaching St. Louis, Sublette and Harris ate the dog. .the Americans (Samuel Tullock and Party) are now most anxious to procure snow shoes, and I (Peter Skene Ogden) am equally so they should not, as I am of the opinion they are anxious to bring over a party of trappers to this quarter.Jedediah Smith and the Opening of the West, Dale Morgan page 218. .We left there (Arikara Village) with eighty-two horses packing commodities, munitions, food, and animal traps. Everyone (56 men) walked except the company partners and the woman, a squaw.Wilson Price Hunts Journal page 1. I could go on and on with this, but since you now owe me 12 references of Mountain Men riding horses five out of seven days, I will stop. When you list these references, please put the source and page number. I fail to see where this comment by Wislizenus is a good comparison between Indian and American horses.The Indian horses are said to have come originally from Mexico. They are of a small breed, and seldom can be called handsome; but they are very swift and hardy, and as they know no food save grass, are much more suitable for such a journey than American horses, which usually grow lean on mere grass. Still American horses, because they are larger and handsomer, are much sought after by whites and Indians, and, when once they are acclimated, are superior. What is an American Horse????? The Military never believed "American" horses were superior. When raiding an Indian village, soldiers killed or run off the Indians' horses. The reason being that Indian horses could travel three or four times farther in a day than "the superior American" cavalry horses, and the soldiers could not catch mounted Indians. Once Indians were on reservations, the government supplied them with larger horses, i.e. Morgan and Percheron, because the Indian horse was to small to use as a draft animal. If you have a reference of Indians trading for American horses in pre-reservation days, I would really appreciate it. This is a long email so I will stop. If you want, I will be glad to list the liabilities of keeping and riding horses in snow and Indian country. Take care, Ned - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 10:13:26 -0500 From: hikingonthru@cs.com Subject: RE: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses IN response to Ned's last posting: purpose of the brigades was to trap beaver, it is hard to believe they >spent 70% of the time riding unless they could trap off the horses. Ned, I am going to assume you have at least scouted out and trapped one beaver. Once you know how to make your sets it does not take long. YOU ever hauled around a years worth of pelts on your back??? Dang things get heavy. >.we continued trapping on foot with fair success> And today, many hunters continue to stalk elk and deer on foot with fair success...once they ride a horse or 4 wheeler into that country and dismount. Horses get you places you want to be that are inaccessible by foot. THEN you walk. >>.On New Years day, 1827, Sublette (Bill) and Harris (Moses)...and set out their only traveling companion an Indian pack dog...would have taken horses if any were there. Sublette and Harris ate the dog.<< I may be wrong, but I believe they left b/c of the dire witner encampment situation and the horses they had were eaten or killed by winter already. I may be wrong on this one. As far as the "larger" American horses...every kid wants a cooler bike than the next door neighbor. Cannot imagine that humans were so much more different about horses back then. It was new, different, desirable, etc. If they were less superior then that was a lesson natives had yet to widely learn. Remember the concept of the "pony raid"? Not just for glory. And, of course, when the brigade you mentioned set out of the Arikara village they had loaded horses packed to the hilt. If one can afford it and can carry it, then it makes sense to take all you can with you. Time spent hunting and killing food is NOT time spent pulling furs out of the water...the ultimate purpose for which they were there. Plus, those foodstuffs were great additional nutrients. Also, it was good preparation for winter when snow may bind them in a camp. These guys were not stupid and thought of many things that may happen and planned for such contingencies. JUST BECAUSE they all started out walking by no means suggests they did not end up riding...as supplies dwindled and all horses were not loaded or even after they dropped supplies in camp and began to break off into smaller trapping parties. AND you quoted only one instance of the brigade walking...show me a pattern. Nah, my friend, those guys rode...maybe not 5 of 7 days, but they rode a lot. Just like working a trapline with truck, 4 wheeler or snowmobile. More land covered and more catches much quicker. They likely had to, you ever seen how quickly an area can be trapped clean of beaver??? I can wipe out a colony in a week of daily trapping. I am sure they experienced similar situations as they worked stream after stream. This proven by the rendezvous records of packs of beaver taken back as years passed. YHS, - -C.Kent - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 10:33:49 -0700 From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses Ned, Gonna jump in with Wynn here. Average trapper had 4-6 traps, weighing 5 pounds each. Now toss in a bed roll, personal gear (which wasn't much), and your rifle and shooting pouch. Gather all that stuff up and hike a couple miles, in moccasins. You'll quickly see why the mountain men had horses. The Rocky Mountains is a big place, lotta walking between water............ Allen from Fort Hall country. At 07:42 AM 1/20/2002 -0700, you wrote: > >Wynn, > >You wrote: The only time horses were a liability was when they did not have >them. Show me a trapping brigade that was not on the move 5 out of 7 days >during the trapping season and I will show you three that were. Show me >a trapper without some of Ned's liabilities and I will show you a foot >sore, hungry, and poor fellow. >There are mentions of "American horses", for instance, Wislizenus >(1839) makes an interesting comparison between them. I agree that most >horses were from Spanish origins but the American horses were often >prized possessions. > >I appreciated your comments because it stimulates me to think about these >things. Would you please explain how to trap a beaver off of a horse. Since >the purpose of the brigades was to trap beaver, it is hard to believe they >spent 70% of the time riding unless they could trap off the horses. > >Here are some examples of Mountain Men not riding horses: > >.we continued trapping on foot with fair success for about six weeks - >Journal of a Mountain Man, James Clyman page 30 - internet excerpt page 21. > >.On New Years day, 1827, Sublette (Bill) and Harris (Moses)said farewell to >their friends and set out (from Cache Valley) on snowshoes for the East, >their only traveling companion an Indian pack dog.Bill Sublette Mountain >Man, John E. Sunder page 71. As a partner in Smith, Jackson, and Sublette, >Sublette would have taken horses if any were there. By the way, before >reaching St. Louis, Sublette and Harris ate the dog. > >.the Americans (Samuel Tullock and Party) are now most anxious to procure >snow shoes, and I (Peter Skene Ogden) am equally so they should not, as I am >of the opinion they are anxious to bring over a party of trappers to this >quarter.Jedediah Smith and the Opening of the West, Dale Morgan page 218. > >.We left there (Arikara Village) with eighty-two horses packing commodities, >munitions, food, and animal traps. Everyone (56 men) walked except the >company partners and the woman, a squaw.Wilson Price Hunts Journal page 1. > >I could go on and on with this, but since you now owe me 12 references of >Mountain Men riding horses five out of seven days, I will stop. When you >list these references, please put the source and page number. > >I fail to see where this comment by Wislizenus is a good comparison between >Indian and American horses.The Indian horses are said to have come >originally from Mexico. They are of a small breed, and seldom can be called >handsome; but they are very swift and hardy, and as they know no food save >grass, are much more suitable for such a journey than American horses, which >usually grow lean on mere grass. Still American horses, because they are >larger and handsomer, are much sought after by whites and Indians, and, when >once they are acclimated, are superior. > >What is an American Horse????? The Military never believed "American" horses >were superior. When raiding an Indian village, soldiers killed or run off >the Indians' horses. The reason being that Indian horses could travel three >or four times farther in a day than "the superior American" cavalry horses, >and the soldiers could not catch mounted Indians. > > Once Indians were on reservations, the government supplied them with larger >horses, i.e. Morgan and Percheron, because the Indian horse was to small to >use as a draft animal. If you have a reference of Indians trading for >American horses in pre-reservation days, I would really appreciate it. > >This is a long email so I will stop. If you want, I will be glad to list the >liabilities of keeping and riding horses in snow and Indian country. > >Take care, >Ned > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 10:51:10 -0700 From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: MtMan-List: use of horses I always thought Sublette and harris set out on foot with a pack dog, because it was the dead of winter. the snow was deep and food for horses would be hard to come by does that make sense. tom - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 12:41:00 -0700 From: "Ned Eddins" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: use of horses It was, but I have found no indications that they had horses in Cache Valley that winter. I lived there ten years and it would take a lot of effort to keep horses alive there in the winter time. Ned - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 13:02:51 -0700 From: "Ned Eddins" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses I did not say they didn't use horses to get to the trapping areas. My argument with Wynn is that once they split off to trap the individual streams, they stayed put until the stream was trapped out which could be days to weeks. During this time, I have found no evidence they rode their horse five out of seven days. Most trappers had two to four camp tenders with them so one trapper did not pack everything. One of the reasons they didn't use horse once they were where they were going is that horses attracted Indians. Between tracks and manure horses leave lots of sign. The literature is full of trappers being set afoot because their horse had been stolen. Ned - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 13:12:38 -0700 From: "Ned Eddins" Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses Kent, Once you know how to make your sets it does not take long.****Traps were set late afternoon and re-checked the next morning that is quite awhile. YOU ever hauled around a years worth of pelts on your back???****Did you ever hear of a cache??? Many of which were dug up by Indians and the trappers lost their furs. >.we continued trapping on foot with fair success> And today, many hunters continue to stalk elk and deer on foot with fair success...once they ride a horse or 4 wheeler into that country and dismount.****What does this have to do with trapping furs in the Rocky Mountains from 1824 to 1840?? >>.On New Years day, 1827, Sublette (Bill) and Harris (Moses)...and set out their only traveling companion an Indian pack dog...would have taken horses if any were there. Sublette and Harris ate the dog.< Subject: MtMan-List: Horses This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C1A1B5.003F8580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I do not want to take up the lists time with this. If any of you have = questions, or want to send me specific references from the fur trade = literature against my position, I would appreciate it. = neddins@silverstar.com=20 Thanks Ned - ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C1A1B5.003F8580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I do not want to take up the lists time = with this.=20 If any of you have questions, or want to send me specific references = from the=20 fur trade literature against my position, I would appreciate it. neddins@silverstar.com =
 
Thanks
Ned
- ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C1A1B5.003F8580-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 22:18:22 +0000 From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses If they had horses for the Indians to steal, they musta had horses.(Logic 101)>VBG< Ferris was in Cache Valley quite a bit in the early 1830's and mentions horses and mules often in his narrative. Don in the Ohio Country >From: "Ned Eddins" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses >Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 13:02:51 -0700 > >I did not say they didn't use horses to get to the trapping areas. My >argument with Wynn is that once they split off to trap the individual >streams, they stayed put until the stream was trapped out which could be >days to weeks. During this time, I have found no evidence they rode their >horse five out of seven days. Most trappers had two to four camp tenders >with them so one trapper did not pack everything. > >One of the reasons they didn't use horse once they were where they were >going is that horses attracted Indians. Between tracks and manure horses >leave lots of sign. The literature is full of trappers being set afoot >because their horse had been stolen. > >Ned > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 15:54:19 -0800 From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: MtMan-List: Sue- great horse debate, eh guys. (for Ned)
Ned,
 
     I beleive I pointed out in the post that this was seen by James as a dangerous endeavor; studs being what they are.  If you read the post initially he wanted no part of the stallion untill he saw that the Indian had gentled him down some.  Ned, you know as well as I do, being the daughter and sister of muzzleloaders and hunters, people often embellish the truth in conversation.  I get your drift, it is highly possible that James could have lied or told a tall tail about the stud's gentle turn around.
 
     My brother, said  "  . . . after a horse is much older than five, dog food is what becomes it's best use. "  He said that old Gable movie with Marilyn Monroe, "THE MISFITS", was hard core pacifist and 'bunny hugger' propaganda to satiate an anti-war public after enduring the enemies of WWII.  The roping of the horse by Gable with Marilyn's protest he claimed was symbolicly showing the shift of rulership from male aggression toward more 'Femenist subjugation'.   We really went round and round on that one as he is from the old school like Dad.  Point being,  he was making in his philosophical bent, was that he thought the film's message was strongly biased against the only logical use of the older mature wild horse.  His words, " Can those wild BLM mustangs, and as sad as it may be, I won't put out $125 a month of feed for a worn out horse". 
 
I see your point,
 
Sue Raven

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- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 19:05:54 -0500 From: hikingonthru@cs.com Subject: RE: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses "darlene secondine" wrote: >If they had horses for the Indians to steal, they musta had horses.(Logic Don, That is what I thought, too. But, it smelled as if this thing may degenerate into one of those "if I can prove you wrong on one point then you are totally wrong on all points" type of things...and that is not any fun. THAT mode of operation holds no logic at all. And I do not see what my knowledge level of Astor had to do with anything at all. They were loaded to the gills when they left...but like I said...thhhpppffff! on that !! In perusing a large number of documents regarding the fur trade, can all say that sometimes they rode and sometimes they walked and sometimes they walked with their horses and sometimes away from their horses AND sometime strying to steal their horses back. The widespread use of horses on a dad-to-day basis is just far too widely mentioned in almost all the literature to think otherwise. The fact that such issues as native vs. american horses was an issue even back then reveals the gravity and import the horse had on the rocky mtn. culture at large during the RMFT period. In short, this thread is rapidly going moot!! - -C.Kent - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 18:17:03 -0700 From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses Hey Clint, oops, uh, Ned, Once a man leaves his mark, he's pretty easily tracked. Wynn Ormond - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 02:22:04 +0000 From: "darlene secondine" Subject: RE: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses Howdy Boys, C. Kent wrote, "sometimes they rode and sometimes they walked and sometimes they walked with their horses and sometimes away from their horses AND sometimes trying to steal their horses back." And sometimes they ate them.(Horses and Mules) Meat's meat in the mountains, Don in the Ohio Country _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 03:44:59 -0700 From: "Michael Powell" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses - ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1A22D.FFB40360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ned, While you're getting all those references on Mt. Men walking in snow shoe= s you might want to look up the times they spent on the ground, living in= the mountains. Then might I suggest you partake of a few like experienc= es and get your head out of the books and actually experience and experim= ent for yourself on what works and what doesn't. The answers will come r= inging true to you as you put the skills of the Mountaineer to the test i= n your life. One doesn't travel in the Rocky Mountains very far without = a good horse. Warren Ferris, Osborne Russell, Nat Wyeth, Jed Smith, etc = all attest to this. Truly, Mike Powell Fort Henry country Upper Snake River Plains =20 =20 - ----- Original Message ----- From: Allen Hall Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2002 10:32 AM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses =20 Ned, Gonna jump in with Wynn here. Average trapper had 4-6 traps, weighing 5 pounds each. Now toss in a bed roll, personal gear (which wasn't much), = and your rifle and shooting pouch. Gather all that stuff up and hike a coupl= e miles, in moccasins. You'll quickly see why the mountain men had horses. The Rocky Mountains is a big place, lotta walking between water..........= .. Allen from Fort Hall country. At 07:42 AM 1/20/2002 -0700, you wrote: > >Wynn, > >You wrote: The only time horses were a liability was when they did not h= ave >them. Show me a trapping brigade that was not on the move 5 out of 7 day= s >during the trapping season and I will show you three that were. Show me >a trapper without some of Ned's liabilities and I will show you a foot >sore, hungry, and poor fellow. >There are mentions of "American horses", for instance, Wislizenus >(1839) makes an interesting comparison between them. I agree that most >horses were from Spanish origins but the American horses were often >prized possessions. > >I appreciated your comments because it stimulates me to think about thes= e >things. Would you please explain how to trap a beaver off of a horse. Si= nce >the purpose of the brigades was to trap beaver, it is hard to believe th= ey >spent 70% of the time riding unless they could trap off the horses. > >Here are some examples of Mountain Men not riding horses: > >.we continued trapping on foot with fair success for about six weeks - >Journal of a Mountain Man, James Clyman page 30 - internet excerpt page = 21. > >.On New Years day, 1827, Sublette (Bill) and Harris (Moses)said farewell= to >their friends and set out (from Cache Valley) on snowshoes for the East, >their only traveling companion an Indian pack dog.Bill Sublette Mountain >Man, John E. Sunder page 71. As a partner in Smith, Jackson, and Sublett= e, >Sublette would have taken horses if any were there. By the way, before >reaching St. Louis, Sublette and Harris ate the dog. > >.the Americans (Samuel Tullock and Party) are now most anxious to procur= e >snow shoes, and I (Peter Skene Ogden) am equally so they should not, as = I am >of the opinion they are anxious to bring over a party of trappers to thi= s >quarter.Jedediah Smith and the Opening of the West, Dale Morgan page 218= . > >.We left there (Arikara Village) with eighty-two horses packing commodit= ies, >munitions, food, and animal traps. Everyone (56 men) walked except the >company partners and the woman, a squaw.Wilson Price Hunts Journal page = 1. > >I could go on and on with this, but since you now owe me 12 references o= f >Mountain Men riding horses five out of seven days, I will stop. When you >list these references, please put the source and page number. > >I fail to see where this comment by Wislizenus is a good comparison betw= een >Indian and American horses.The Indian horses are said to have come >originally from Mexico. They are of a small breed, and seldom can be cal= led >handsome; but they are very swift and hardy, and as they know no food sa= ve >grass, are much more suitable for such a journey than American horses, w= hich >usually grow lean on mere grass. Still American horses, because they are >larger and handsomer, are much sought after by whites and Indians, and, = when >once they are acclimated, are superior. > >What is an American Horse????? The Military never believed "American" ho= rses >were superior. When raiding an Indian village, soldiers killed or run of= f >the Indians' horses. The reason being that Indian horses could travel th= ree >or four times farther in a day than "the superior American" cavalry hors= es, >and the soldiers could not catch mounted Indians. > > Once Indians were on reservations, the government supplied them with la= rger >horses, i.e. Morgan and Percheron, because the Indian horse was to small= to >use as a draft animal. If you have a reference of Indians trading for >American horses in pre-reservation days, I would really appreciate it. > >This is a long email so I will stop. If you want, I will be glad to list= the >liabilities of keeping and riding horses in snow and Indian country. > >Take care, >Ned > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.htmlGe= t more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.co= m - ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1A22D.FFB40360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ned,
While you're getting all those references on Mt. Men walking in snow sh= oes you might want to look up the times they spent on the ground, living&= nbsp;in the mountains.  Then might I suggest you partake of a few li= ke experiences and get your head out of the books and actually experience= and experiment for yourself on what works and what doesn't.  The an= swers will come ringing true to you as you put the skills of the Mountain= eer to the test in your life.  One doesn't travel in the Rocky = Mountains very far without a good horse.  Warren Ferris, Osborne Rus= sell, Nat Wyeth, Jed Smith, etc all attest to this.
Truly,
Mike Powell
Fort Henry country
Upper Snake = River Plains
  
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Allen Hall
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2002 10:32 AM
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Us= e of Horses
 
Ned,

Gonna jump in with Wynn he= re.  Average trapper had 4-6 traps, weighing 5
pounds each. = Now toss in a bed roll, personal gear (which wasn't much), and
your r= ifle and shooting pouch.  Gather all that stuff up and hike a couple=
miles, in moccasins.  You'll quickly see why the mountain men ha= d horses.

The Rocky Mountains is a big place, lotta walking betwee= n water............

Allen from Fort Hall country.

At 07:42 = AM 1/20/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Wynn,
>
>You wr= ote: The only time horses were a liability was when they did not have
= >them. Show me a trapping brigade that was not on the move 5 out of 7 = days
>during the trapping season and I will show you three that wer= e.  Show me
>a trapper without some of Ned's liabilities and I= will show you a foot
>sore, hungry, and poor fellow.
>There = are mentions of "American horses", for instance,  Wislizenus
>= (1839) makes an interesting comparison between them.  I agree that m= ost
>horses were from Spanish origins but the American horses were = often
>prized possessions.
>
>I appreciated your commen= ts because it stimulates me to think about these
>things. Would you= please explain how to trap a beaver off of a horse. Since
>the pur= pose of the brigades was to trap beaver, it is hard to believe they
&g= t;spent 70% of the time riding unless they could trap off the horses.
= >
>Here are some examples of Mountain Men not riding horses:
= >
>.we continued trapping on foot with fair success for about si= x weeks -
>Journal of a Mountain Man, James Clyman page 30 - intern= et excerpt page 21.
>
>.On New Years day, 1827, Sublette (Bil= l) and Harris (Moses)said farewell to
>their friends and set out (f= rom Cache Valley) on snowshoes for the East,
>their only traveling = companion an Indian pack dog.Bill Sublette Mountain
>Man, John E. S= under page 71. As a partner in Smith, Jackson, and Sublette,
>Suble= tte would have taken horses if any were there. By the way, before
>= reaching St. Louis, Sublette and Harris ate the dog.
>
>.the = Americans (Samuel Tullock and Party) are now most anxious to procure
&= gt;snow shoes, and I (Peter Skene Ogden) am equally so they should not, a= s I am
>of the opinion they are anxious to bring over a party of tr= appers to this
>quarter.Jedediah Smith and the Opening of the West,= Dale Morgan page 218.
>
>.We left there (Arikara Village) wi= th eighty-two horses packing commodities,
>munitions, food, and ani= mal traps. Everyone (56 men) walked except the
>company partners an= d the woman, a squaw.Wilson Price Hunts Journal page 1.
>
>I = could go on and on with this, but since you now owe me 12 references of>Mountain Men riding horses five out of seven days, I will stop. Whe= n you
>list these references, please put the source and page number= .
>
>I fail to see where this comment by Wislizenus is a good= comparison between
>Indian and American horses.The Indian horses a= re said to have come
>originally from Mexico. They are of a small b= reed, and seldom can be called
>handsome; but they are very swift a= nd hardy, and as they know no food save
>grass, are much more suita= ble for such a journey than American horses, which
>usually grow le= an on mere grass. Still American horses, because they are
>larger a= nd handsomer, are much sought after by whites and Indians, and, when
&= gt;once they are acclimated, are superior.
>
>What is an Amer= ican Horse????? The Military never believed "American" horses
>were= superior. When raiding an Indian village, soldiers killed or run off
= >the Indians' horses. The reason being that Indian horses could travel= three
>or four times farther in a day than "the superior American"= cavalry horses,
>and the soldiers could not catch mounted Indians.=
>
> Once Indians were on reservations, the government suppli= ed them with larger
>horses, i.e. Morgan and Percheron, because the= Indian horse was to small to
>use as a draft animal. If you have a= reference of Indians trading for
>American horses in pre-reservati= on days, I would really appreciate it.
>
>This is a long emai= l so I will stop. If you want, I will be glad to list the
>liabilit= ies of keeping and riding horses in snow and Indian country.
>
&= gt;Take care,
>Ned
>
>
>
>
>---------= - -------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/= mtman/maillist.html
>
>


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- ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1A22D.FFB40360-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 07:57:15 -0700 From: "Ned Eddins" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last reply to Mike Powell This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C1A251.3DBF9160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, I got news for you...what separates me from the vast majority of = historians and "wanta be" mountain men is that I have been there. I live = within two hundred miles of all of the rendezvous sites...I have had = camps buried back in the mountains most of the summer for over forty = years...this is illegal, but no forest service man ever gets that far = out of his pickup...like most of the subscribers to this list must not = do.=20 I did not say trappers did not use horses, but where they actually = trapped, they walked. My whole point to all of this was they did not = ride five out of seven days. Prime pelts were taken late fall and early spring. Are you going to tell = me they rode horses into Grassy Lake, or over Connant Pass, in November = or March. Look out your window at Hurricane Pass (the Grand Teton is = behind it in case you don't know), I went over it once with a pack = string in late July and had to make a trail around a snowdrift to get = into Alaska Basin.=20 The majority of Jed Smith's expeditions were on foot...ever try to ride = a horse across the Salt Flats or the Mohave Desert?? Ferris, Russell, = and Wyeth got here in the thirties which was towards the end of the fur = trade era (1807-1840)...yes they trapped on both ends of this period, = but this was from the first post on the upper Missouri to the end of the = rendezvous system. By the 1830s, most of the mountain men were spending = the winter east of the Continental Divide where they could keep horses. I particularly liked Don Secondine reference to Ferris and horses in = Cache Valley. I said there were no indication of horses there in 1827. = His comment was that Ferris said there were horses and mule there in the = mid-thirties. In another fifteen or so years Mormons were plowing it up = with draft horses. The main thing that stimulated my interest in the fur trade was I live = in the center of it, and have rode a horse over a good deal of it. I = drove a team of mules over South Pass a few years ago, and believe me, = my description of it and what Clyman had to say about it would be vastly = different. Have you ever straddled the head of the Yellowstone, the = Green, or Snake Rivers?? By doing these things, I can truly appreciate = what a hard life it was for the early Mountain Men. One of the problems with this period of history is you cannot totally = relate the early 1807-1830 period with the later period when most of the = histories were written. There are nine accounts of the Battle of = Pierre's Hole. In reading Ferris' account, I seriously doubt if he was = even there. Most of these early writers wrote their books from memory = long after they had left the mountains, and they wrote them to sell. If = the facts were embellished, it made for better sales.=20 I am hitting the unsubscribe button, but if any of you want to seriously = discuss this period, please contact me directly. YMOS (see I have learned something) Ned =20 neddins@silverstar.com - ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C1A251.3DBF9160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike,
I got news for you...what separates me = from the=20 vast majority of historians and "wanta be" mountain men is that I have = been=20 there. I live within two hundred miles of all of the rendezvous = sites...I=20 have had camps buried back in the mountains most of the summer for = over=20 forty years...this is illegal, but no forest service man ever gets that = far out=20 of his pickup...like most of the subscribers to this list must not do.=20
 
I did not say trappers did not = use horses,=20 but where they actually trapped, they walked. My whole point to all of = this was=20 they did not ride five out of seven days.
 
Prime pelts were taken late fall = and early=20 spring. Are you going to tell me they rode horses into Grassy Lake, or = over=20 Connant Pass, in November or March. Look out your window at Hurricane = Pass (the=20 Grand Teton is behind it in case you don't know), I went over it once = with a=20 pack string in late July and had to make a trail around a = snowdrift to get=20 into Alaska Basin.
 
The majority of Jed Smith's expeditions = were on=20 foot...ever try to ride a horse across the Salt Flats or the Mohave = Desert??=20 Ferris, Russell, and Wyeth got here in the thirties which was towards = the end of=20 the fur trade era (1807-1840)...yes they trapped on both ends of this = period,=20 but this was from the first post on the upper Missouri to the end of the = rendezvous system. By the 1830s, most of the mountain men were spending = the=20 winter east of the Continental Divide where they could keep = horses.
 
I particularly liked Don Secondine = reference to=20 Ferris and horses in Cache Valley. I said there were no indication of = horses=20 there in 1827. His comment was that Ferris said there were horses and = mule there=20 in the mid-thirties. In another fifteen or so years Mormons = were=20 plowing it up with draft horses.
 
The main thing that stimulated my = interest in the=20 fur trade was I live in the center of it, and have rode a horse over a = good deal=20 of it. I drove a team of mules over South Pass a few years = ago, and=20 believe me, my description of it and what Clyman had to say about it = would be=20 vastly different. Have you ever straddled the head of the Yellowstone, = the=20 Green, or Snake Rivers?? By doing these things, I can truly appreciate = what a=20 hard life it was for the early Mountain Men.
 
One of the problems with this period of = history is=20 you cannot totally relate the early 1807-1830 period with the later = period when=20 most of the histories were written. There are nine accounts of the = Battle of=20 Pierre's Hole. In reading Ferris' account, I seriously doubt if he was = even=20 there. Most of these early writers wrote their books from memory long = after they=20 had left the mountains, and they wrote them to sell. If the facts were=20 embellished, it made for better sales.
 
I am hitting the unsubscribe button, but = if any of=20 you want to seriously discuss this period, please contact me=20 directly.
 
YMOS (see I have learned=20 something)
 
Ned  
neddins@silverstar.com<= /DIV>
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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