Check Wal-Mart. I bought a nice sheet there to make into a pancho.

Todd

On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 23:04:16 -0700 "Michael Powell" <amm1769@hotmail.com> writes:

Randy,

Almost forgot. If you have more access to 4-6 more sheets I'd = be=20 interested in some if the price is still available. It's hard = to=20 get here in Idaho. Also, I wouldn't treat it with oil but if you = wanted=20 to add a little color to it you could use earth or plant pigments.

Mike Powell

----- Original Message -----

From:<= /B>=20 Randal Bublitz

Sent: Wednesday, January 23, = 2002 10:42=20 PM

To: hist_text

Subject: MtMan-List: Egyptian=20 cotton

Question? Does anyone have any = experience=20 with egyptian cotton sheeting; ie-making into a tarp, or shelter. = I=20 found some 250 thread per inch twin flat sheets for $9 a piece. I= =20 bought 4 of them. I can make a pretty good sized tarp from= =20 these. I figured I'd wash them in hot water, to shrink up as much= as=20 they will. Then stitch together. I figure I'll leave the = tarp=20 untreated. If this doesn't work well, I can treat=20 later...oil? I'd appreciate any input, tips, etc.... &= nbsp;=20 hardtack

--- Randal Bublitz

--- rjbublitz@earthlink.net
we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers,

we are Borrowing it from our Children

---------------------- hist_text list info:=20 http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

"Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784
= - ----__JNP_000_496d.0ffa.56b5-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 18:07:02 -0700 From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Now they are beginning plans for a mountain man area complete with palisaded fur trade post. The board member in charge, a guy named "Patch" (I nick-named him decades ago. He liked it and changed his name legally a decade ago. Am I his god-father?), and I are the planners. It could work into a job for me (not full-time! I am retired!) as the Chief Factor of the post/fort . . . at least consulting fees. - --------- Hey Dick just got off the phone with "Patch" will send you guys the information this weekend that he asked about for your project, he's like you - haven't seen either one of you guys since Jackson Hole at "Wind River Rendezvous", sorry "The Mountain Men". - --------- I want to see that part of Canada and also visit a Hudsons' Bay Store (which I expect to be disapointing)...... - --------- It' like K-Mart but still operating in the black, so that's a plus. - -------- Take care, Buck Conner Visit this site, find out about the [AMM] (American Mountain Men's) "Great Buffalo Raffle". ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ AMM "The Great Buffalo Raffle": http://conner110.tripod.com/AMM-hunt.html ~ ~ see the AMM site for more supporters of this event. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:14:41 -0800 From: Pat Quilter Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Use of Horses Hopefully we have established that the "Mountain Man was a Mounted Man". Horses and mules were the SUV's of the pre-automobile era. One parks a vehicle frequently and does stuff, but nobody would think of taking a long trip without the best transport available (River trips are an alternate example, as noted). My specific reason for posting is to expand on Lee Newbill's amusing episode of mid-night disturbance. I have made a few trips with horses. They ARE INDEED a constant concern and responsibility, but so is a car when you think of it. Especially in light of hauling a trapper's gear, and travelling fast when required, the hassle is necessary. Sleeping with horses nearby is quite different. Keeping them around is a real problem. The old parties posted a watch in many cases, and I have also seen reference to a "Bell Mare" which was kept tied, so the other horses would not wander too far (can anyone explain this further?). During our rides, we slept clothed with mocassins on, and this was also the custom with a pair of men I know who made a months-long ride some years ago. Dealing with the possibility of being suddenly rousted, by a stampede, horse wreck, bear or whatever, is one of those challenges one learns by the doing. The question of night clothes is not frequently discussed in the journals, but there are hints if one reads between the lines. Lewis Garrard, a 17-year old who sponged up experience from older trappers in 1846-7, refers to having a shirt on his back for about 50 days, "quite long enough" when he finally got a change of clothing. Pat Quilter - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 08:39:40 EST From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pewter nose caps <> I wonder, if this is a sulfer compound as the name implies and it works then you may have a easy solution the next time you clean your gun. I use the black residue of shooting my flint lock to darken the brass on my guns. It is fast and effective. Charlie P Webb said that the liver of sulphur works on brass and as the residue in black powder buns has a lot of sulgur in it it may work on your pewter. Good excuse to go shoot a little tomarrow and try it. Like I needed an excuse. I know that disreputable antique dealers have been known to take Brass and Pewter and bury it in a trench and urinate on the pit once and a while to get the stuff to age. Don't know if it works on the modern pewter which has no lead. Y.M.O.S. C.T. Oakes - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 01:44:53 +0000 From: "don secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pewter nose caps C.T., The mix I use for nose caps is a combination of lead, antimony, and tin. I musta put a leetle to much tin in this one. I swear it looks like silver and HARD. I'll have to remember this when I do a silver mounted Halfstock. Anyway, the high tin content is not wanting to gray down. I intend to try the liver of sulphur. I tried another recipe today and I did not like the results. It didn't look natural so I'll try again. maybe the black powder fouling will work. I appreciate the help on this project. Thanks fellas, Don >From: CTOAKES@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pewter nose caps >Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 08:39:40 EST > ><jewelry supply stores works well. >> > >I wonder, if this is a sulfer compound as the name implies and it works >then you may have a easy solution the next time you clean your gun. I use >the black residue of shooting my flint lock to darken the brass on my guns. > It is fast and effective. Charlie P Webb said that the liver of sulphur >works on brass and as the residue in black powder buns has a lot of sulgur >in it it may work on your pewter. Good excuse to go shoot a little >tomarrow and try it. Like I needed an excuse. > >I know that disreputable antique dealers have been known to take Brass and >Pewter and bury it in a trench and urinate on the pit once and a while to >get the stuff to age. Don't know if it works on the modern pewter which >has no lead. > >Y.M.O.S. > >C.T. Oakes > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 19:04:10 -0700 From: Charlie P Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pewter nose caps Liver of Sulphur is a mixture of Potassium Sulfides. Has been used for centuries by whitesmiths for darkening and creating a patina on pewter, silver, brass and copper. Generally comes package in a tin like a paint can. Inside it looks and smells like pure sulphur rocks. Powder up a small bit and add it to warm water. Store it in a dark (brown) glass bottle as light weakens it very fast. Mix up only what you think you will need. Apply with a cleaning patch or old bit of T shirt. This is the stuff engravers use to darken and create contrast in Silver or on patch boxes. After your metal darkens buff it back to where you want it with 0000 steel wool. I have poured many many pewter nose caps, knife handle rivets and inlays and the liver of sulphur has done the job for me for a lot of years. Yes, a dirty patch will eventually darken the pewter. Charlie > > I wonder, if this is a sulfur compound as the name implies - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 18:29:43 -0800 From: "Lee Newbill" Subject: MtMan-List: Horses & Bell Mares - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Quilter" > seen reference to a "Bell Mare" which was kept tied, so the other horses > would not wander too far (can anyone explain this further?). Pat I am far from a fountian of knowledge on this subject, perhaps a small trickle of hard learned lessons I am blessed with being able to work with an old packer (1960's forest service & hunting outfits). I asked him this same question. What he referred to as the bell mare was the lead/dominent mare of the herd... the mare that the others would presumably not leave. He would put the bell on her and tie her somewhat close to camp. She got grain, the others had to forage. I've also picked up a book written by a fella named Dusty Johnson (Colorado) called "Horse Packing Illustrated". He says pretty much the same thing 'cept it sounds like he turns all his mounts loose after belling the dominent one. He also bells those that might wander off for easier locating. I tried this with my bunch, and found it works..... but that's only for my small herd of three. I'm trying to imagine a herd of 150 horses and the logistics required to keep them together, healthy and sound... a lot of work. I made a living working horses about 20 some odd years ago, I prefer them as a hobby. I have not seen any comments in the books I've read on this subject.... probably one of those common things no-one thought to write down. Regards from N. Idaho... where the weather pretty much sucks right now Lee Newbill AMM#1821 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 22:07:22 EST From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses In a message dated 1/24/02 5:42:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, amm1769@hotmail.com writes: << (can see the Tetons from my back door) >> Should you ever desire to sell your abode...... - -C.Kent - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 22:59:34 EST From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "THE GREAT BUFFALO RAFFLE". Your concerns a valid, but every sale of this type I've been to a health check by the vet with papers to prove it are required before the animal is unloaded for the sale. Joe - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:25:03 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (no subject) In a message dated 1/24/02 5:56:25 PM, sardog1@att.net writes: <> What are you saying in this mish-mash time line? And how are you defining the "Astor Period" - Astor, whose activities and holdings span numerous changes in trapping/trading procedures? Hudson Bay and Northwest Company were canoe-waterways-voyageur travelers to begin with. But they were traders, not trappers. Ashely started out on the rivers, but wanted to include trapping along with trading. Lewis and Clark started out on the water but intended to trade for horses on the upper Missouri. British interests using horses and at that time Hudson's Bay was using horses in the west with "Fats" McKenzie down into Bear Lake country in the 1813 era and Peter Skene Ogden down to Ogden's Hole by 1825. John Coulter had traveled all over the Shoshone River/Jackson Hole/ Yellowstone country on showshoes before he ever used a dug-out canoe and got his partner killed and himself in big trouble with Bug's Boys without the use of horses. There was no intercourse with California in those days until the Jed Smith expeditions and it was AFTER this that horses were brought out of California. And where is Astor at this time? I cannot see that he typifies any historic group. He used a handcart to begin with - later wagons - and ended up with merchant vessels on both Atlantic and Pacific waters. He moved his center of operation from New York to the island at Michilimakinac (all canoe country) but turned the western operation over to a St. Louis firm for the Rocky Mountain operations - with horses - during the rendezvous period. Horses or waterways or both - whatever suited the times and the geography. California horses - really late in the fur trade period. Ashley period . . . not defined by characteristics, only his life-span. Smart-assed comments about he-men and heros . . . out of place. Richard James - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:31:14 EST From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bell-mare In a message dated 1/24/02 5:15:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, pat_quilter@qscaudio.com writes: > The old parties posted a watch in many cases, and I have also > seen reference to a "Bell Mare" which was kept tied, so the other horses > would not wander too far (can anyone explain this further?). "A Dictionary of the Old West," by Peter Watts (Alfred A. Knopf, NY 1977) provides the following definition: "bell-mare - a mare with a bell or bells suspended from her neck to keep a bunch of mules together. Rossi, 1975, adds that mules will follow a mare with or wihtout bells. White mares were often used, as they were easier to spot if they wandered with their wards while grazing. They were also sometimes used to keep horses together." Watts, p.29. Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:16:09 -0700 From: "Michael Powell" Subject: MtMan-List: Tetons at my back door - ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C1A535.7D0035A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable C, Lived here for 25 years now and love it. You'd be more than welcome, if = you're ever in my neck of the woods, to stay a spell. YMHOS, Mike USRP (upper snake river plains) =20 =20 - ----- Original Message ----- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 8:08 PM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses =20 In a message dated 1/24/02 5:42:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, amm1769@hotmail.com writes: << (can see the Tetons from my back door) >> Should you ever desire to sell your abode...... - -C.Kent - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.htmlGe= t more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.co= m - ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C1A535.7D0035A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
C,

= Lived here for 25 years now and love it. You'd be more than we= lcome, if you're ever in my neck of the woods, to stay a spell.
YMHOS,

Mike

USRP (upper snake river plains) =

----- Original Message -----
= From: HikingOnThru@cs.com

Se= nt: Thursday, January 24, 2002 8:08 PM

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com

Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses

&nb= sp;
In a message dated 1/24/02 5:42:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
= amm1769@hotmail.com writes:

<< (can see the Tetons fro= m my back door) >>

Should you ever desire to sell your abode= ......<VBG>
-C.Kent

----------------------
hist_text l= ist info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Ex= plorer download : http://explorer.msn= .com
- ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C1A535.7D0035A0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 01:59:08 -0600 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Use of Horses Pat, You are getting some modern book & dictionary definitions of a "bell mare" but, I don't think they are quite covering what I believe you are asking. My 1828 Websters doesn't include the term. Horses are natural herd animals. Any group of horses kept together 24 hours or so will "herd up". Every herd has a pecking order and though there may be a dominant stallion or gelding, a dominant mare is the lead they all follow when they decide to find new pastures or stay close by. If you are riding along and encounter a single animal they generally will follow along with your string. A belled mare probably does more for the fellow looking for his livestock than it helps keep the animals together. Are the references to a "bell mare" period specific? I figure folks who made extra noise in possibly hostile territory, where horse theft was everybody's favorite hobby, shortly found themselves walking all the time. I think it was probably more common to picket the dominant mare or a personal favorite riding animal. I've found, on more than one night, it was important I slept with my moccasins and everything but my shooting bag still on. Horses will suddenly panic for, what seems to us, no reason at all. A whiff on the wind of a smell they don't like and a different county suddenly seems appealing. Getting undressed to sleep is for civilized folk not mountaineers. Dry mocs are a pleasure. Recently some assumptions have been made that presume the land was always as we see it today. In 1979 I encountered an ancient old cowboy who claimed he drove huge herds of horses from Texas to Montana in the very early 1900's. He claimed the Red Desert used to have good water and belly deep oat grass so thick a horse could founder in an hour. He blamed BLM practices of the 1930's for the tumbleweeds and sage brush and lack of good water holes. To look at the Cache Valley today and then say it is exactly how it was in the early nineteenth century is ludicrous. The incursions of modern man are obvious. John... At 07:14 PM 1/24/02, you wrote: > Hopefully we have established that the "Mountain Man was a Mounted Man". >Horses and mules were the SUV's of the pre-automobile era. One parks a >vehicle frequently and does stuff, but nobody would think of taking a long >trip without the best transport available (River trips are an alternate >example, as noted). > My specific reason for posting is to expand on Lee Newbill's amusing >episode of mid-night disturbance. I have made a few trips with horses. They >ARE INDEED a constant concern and responsibility, but so is a car when you >think of it. Especially in light of hauling a trapper's gear, and travelling >fast when required, the hassle is necessary. > Sleeping with horses nearby is quite different. Keeping them around is a >real problem. The old parties posted a watch in many cases, and I have also >seen reference to a "Bell Mare" which was kept tied, so the other horses >would not wander too far (can anyone explain this further?). During our >rides, we slept clothed with mocassins on, and this was also the custom with >a pair of men I know who made a months-long ride some years ago. Dealing >with the possibility of being suddenly rousted, by a stampede, horse wreck, >bear or whatever, is one of those challenges one learns by the doing. The >question of night clothes is not frequently discussed in the journals, but >there are hints if one reads between the lines. Lewis Garrard, a 17-year old >who sponged up experience from older trappers in 1846-7, refers to having a >shirt on his back for about 50 days, "quite long enough" when he finally got >a change of clothing. >Pat Quilter > >---------------------- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 07:37:00 -0500 From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bell-mare I read in The Prairie Traveler 1859 by Capt. Marcy, US Army that the bell mare was also used to keep the mules in check. Seems that the mules would take a likin to the bell mare and it's colt if it had one. They would follow that mare literally anywhere. In one such instance a particular mule layed down three days in a row. Every night that mule would start making noise and wander into camp, position itself up next to the bell mare. Frank V. Rago - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 12:31 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bell-mare > In a message dated 1/24/02 5:15:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, > pat_quilter@qscaudio.com writes: > > > The old parties posted a watch in many cases, and I have also > > seen reference to a "Bell Mare" which was kept tied, so the other horses > > would not wander too far (can anyone explain this further?). > > "A Dictionary of the Old West," by Peter Watts (Alfred A. Knopf, NY 1977) > provides the following definition: > > "bell-mare - a mare with a bell or bells suspended from her neck to keep a > bunch of mules together. Rossi, 1975, adds that mules will follow a mare > with or wihtout bells. White mares were often used, as they were easier to > spot if they wandered with their wards while grazing. They were also > sometimes used to keep horses together." Watts, p.29. > > > Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 07:46:35 EST From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bell-mare Bell Mares are used in a since even today if you want to extend the intent to other animals. Horses and mules are herd animals. They naturally stay in groups. The Bell mare is the lead animal as established within the herd its self. In sheep, the (bell mare) is often a goat. A bell is place around the neck so you can find them, letting you use your ears and eyes. That's what a bell mare is. I wouldn't through with the risk of theft, they would have used them but if that's what it says, who am I to disagree. Joe - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:27:05 -0700 From: "Ned Eddins" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bell-mare Mountain (Gentle)Men and Mountain Ladies of the List: I for one want to thank you all. These last posts are great. There is something of value in them for all of us. Capt. Rtlahti emailed me that if we were all setting around the campfire none of us would say the things to each other that we do over the internet.this is an observation from a very wise man that we should all heed. Let's get off of Sue Raven and anybody else that we disagree with except to ask them in a very polite way (this applies to me as well as many others) to justify their position. And above all, let's drop this Clint Garrett stupidity. If your only rebuttal to something is that it must be Clint Garrett, you got real problems. My favorite all-time bumper sticker would be: HAPPINESS IS HEARING THE BELL ON YOUR MULE. There are many on the list that have not had the opportunity to experience these mountains like many of us. I have met people on several occasions that came out here for a pack trip and spent most of their time hunting for, or chasing, their horses. I have taken friends on pack trips, or had them at a camp back in the mountains, for a week to ten days at a time. Over the years, and after more bad experience than I care to admit to, this is what works best for me. 1. One horse is tied up at all times 2. One loose horse or mule is belled 3. All loose horses are hobbled 4. All horses are tied up at night Believe me every time I break one of these rules, I usually end up chasing horses down the trail. Remember, packers get rid of any horses that won't stay around camp, and we as individual horses owners do not have that luxury. As has been said, horses are a herd animal, and if one takes off, they all do, including the one that's belled. Besides this, there are some real advantages to getting all of your horses use to wearing a bell. If anyone want me to elaborate on how I arrived at my rules let me know. Some people picket their horses and get along fine. I personally have always been scared of it. If you plan to picket, or hobble, your horses do it at home until they are use to it. I took thirty four pictures of a mountain sheep the other day that are un-believable. At one point, I could have reached out and touched it. I am using one for my screen saver. I don't know what the policy is on pictures, but if it is okay, I will glad to share the best ones. Ned - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:15:36 -0800 From: Pat Quilter Subject: MtMan-List: Citation for Bell Mare Thanks to everyone for posting their understanding of "Bell Mare". I encountered the term in Stewart's fictionalized account of the 1830's. (As he notes in his prologue, although the "story line" is a melodramatic romance, his intention was to use it to depict as many authentic details of the rendezvous period as he could. His work is as good as most journals for documenting such details). He refers to a situation involving a bell mare in passing (just as we might note a flat tire without talking about how to change it). The practices reported by the last several respondants agree well with the situation he describes, and thus we can conclude that this was a standard practice well known to the readers of the day. As far as the noise goes -- there weren't Indians behind EVERY bush, and perhaps the bell helped keep away wild animals. When you read the old journals, it is clear that sometimes they are in "Indian country" and sometimes not (or at least, the tribe was thought to be in a different region at that time). In any case they could go for weeks without seeing any. Of course, these assumptions were periodically punctured by the sight of a warrior party, or worse, a sudden raid. We can assume that the more cautious parties changed their tactics whenever they believed they might encounter hostiles. As I recall, Stewart also refers to makeshift corrals in some cases. Horses spooking must have been a chronic problem, although perhaps those mounts were a little more accustomed to the woods. On the other hand, there were probably a LOT more wild animals including bears and mountain lions. Lastly - we all recall that the "tumbleweed" is a relatively modern invader, which came into the west late in the 19th century. Cattle grazing and other activities definitely have altered the landscape. Respectfully submitted Pat Quilter - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:07:44 -0700 From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: California Horse Source Sue Raven wrote in part: No one has yet, brought up the facts that horses were traded and stolen from California to supply mountain men endeavors. A big part of the fur trade. I guess I'll just have to hunt down that material on Walker and Captain Bonneville. I would be interested what you find. My research does not show a direct trade route for horses from California to the mountains. Zenas Leonard hired on with Walker as a clerk before their trip to California. He gives an idea of the number of men involved, over 195, but that number were divided into three groups. One of these was lead by Walker to California. Of that group he writes that, 揺ach man provided with four horses, . . . .� In oter words they had a pretty fair number of horses to start out with. After the hazardous journey across the desert, and a mountain crossing of which he writes, � This we done several times, and it was the only thing that saved us from death. 24 of our horses died since we arrived on top of the mountain - 17 of which we eat the best parts� At one point they literally lowered their horses with ropes down part of the mountain. After arriving in California they had some loses to noted theft. Finally they had some additions from trading with both Indians (5 horses that I noted) and the Spanish (100 horses and few others noted) their group began the crossing of the Sierras with 350 horses. They appear to make it across the mountains with Indian guides without great loss but of the desert he says, 揟he principal part of our present difficulties arose from the scarcity of pasture for our horses and cattle.� Later he writes, 揟he next morning we resumed our toilsome march at an early hour, finding our stock suffering greatly for the want of water.� Later � We had to keep our dumb brutes constantly moving about on their feet, for if they would once lay down it would be impossible to get them up again, and we would then be compelled to leave them. Nor were the men in a much better condition.� So that � we had lost 64 horses, 10 cows, and 15 dogs.� At that point they still had a lot of desert to cross but their worst problems were over. This leaves some speculation, or room for bedate, but it seems clear to me that the loss of horseflesh in making the journey outweighed any gains made. Of course Jed抯 trip left a huge deficit in horseflesh that any trade venture would have to make up if California horse were to be concidered important to the mountains. Now that I have made my argument agianst a California horse source, left me give the fuel I found to anyone who would like to disagree. Zenas writes of the Californios: The dry season is occupied by the inhabitants in gathering the mules into large droves and driving them off to the market at Santa Fee, a distance of 12 or 1400 miles from this part of the coast, through a wild and desert country. Here they meet with ready sale at a profitable price from the traders of Missouri, who repair to Santa Fee annually for that purpose My apologies for not including page numbers but all quotes are from Zenas Leonards journal. Wynn Ormond - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:18:06 -0700 From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horses & Bell Mares Lee Newbill wrote: > > > > I've also picked up a book written by a fella named Dusty Johnson (Colorado) > called "Horse Packing Illustrated". He says pretty much the same thing > 'cept it sounds like he turns all his mounts loose after belling the > dominent one. He also bells those that might wander off for easier > locating. > Has anyone else noted that this idea of dominate mare being the leader does not always fly true. In my pasture the dominant gelding pushes the oldest but least dominate mare and she leads the crowd. All to often she decides to lead when I decide to catch them fer a ride. I have read that mules are even more prone to stay herded up than horses, especially with a light colored mare. My experience has not proven this either way. Wynn Ormond - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 17:49:09 -0500 From: Linda Holley Subject: MtMan-List: Some help needed To change the topic a little, I need some information on the 2002 Pacific Primitive Rendezvous and the 2002 Rocky Mountain Primitive Rendezvous. Does anyone know where and when these events will take place? Linda Holley - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 17:21:07 -0700 From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some help needed Linda, The Rocky Mountain National Rendezvous is at Elk Park in Utah. 7th - 17th ? of July. Todd On Fri, 25 Jan 2002 17:49:09 -0500 Linda Holley writes: > To change the topic a little, I need some information on the 2002 > Pacific Primitive > Rendezvous and the 2002 Rocky Mountain Primitive Rendezvous. Does > anyone know > where and when these events will take place? > > Linda Holley > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #939 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.