From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #950 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Saturday, February 9 2002 Volume 01 : Number 950 In this issue: -       FW: Re: MtMan-List: cougar -       Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! -       Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! -       MtMan-List: Making Mocs -       Re: MtMan-List: Making Mocs -       Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! -       Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! -       Re: MtMan-List: Beaver catch (Trapper productivity) -       Re: MtMan-List: Beaver catch (Trapper productivity) -       Re: MtMan-List: Beaver catch (Trapper productivity) -       Re: MtMan-List: Beaver catch (Trapper productivity) -       Re: MtMan-List: Beaver catch (Trapper productivity) -       Re: MtMan-List: Beaver catch (Trapper productivity) -       RE: MtMan-List: Making Mocs -       Re: MtMan-List: Beaver catch (Trapper productivity) -       Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! -       Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! -       Re: MtMan-List:trapping and other stuff ! (baits) -       MtMan-List: Fur Trade Houses - research -       Re: MtMan-List:trapping and other stuff ! (baits) -       Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! -       MtMan-List: ARTICLE - Trapper Productivity ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 23:20:38 -0800 From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: FW: Re: MtMan-List: cougar
 

As a Californicator, I can attest to the cougar problem.  After they became protected, the cougar population has exploded.  They are highly adaptable creatures.  They learn to live in suburban areas, and have been known to prey on children, joggers, etc....  Game management is not a concept understood by Peta, etc.... In the area in which I live, it is becoming dangerous to take a walk, jog, or bike ride  outside of the city limits. You might become cat food.  A friend of mine was chased by a cougar while Mtn. bike riding, within a mile of my house. Luckily he was going downhill, and escaped.  More power to the cats, as far as I'm concerned, but they don't need complete protection.  In one well known case a female jogger was killed.  The offending cougar was tracked and killed.  Then it's kits were found.  "The poor orphaned kittens."  A lot of money came pouring in to 'save' the kittens.  Guess how much money was donated to help the dead womans children?  Virtually none.  That's the way it is here on the 'Left' coast.....sheeesh.....     Just my opinion.    hardtack 
 
The public, as I understand it, put a stop to cougar hunting in California.  Now cougars eat joggers and kids playing in their back yards.  Fish and Game officials have to hunt down the offending cougar, after the damage is done, because population control by hunting is against the law.  Public pressure did that
John Enos #1825
--- Randal Bublitz
--- rjbublitz@earthlink.net
we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers,
we are Borrowing it from our Children
 

 
- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 08:05:17 EST From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! You folks need to listen to John Enos, I am also a State Certified Trapping Instructor, and have and am serving on the Board of Directors of my State trapping Assn. and a Life Member of the National Trappers Assn. Mr. Enos speaks the truth here in his writings. TrapRjoe - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:47:57 -0500 From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! well said trapperjohn "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of the "Old Grizz (C) product line & "the Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 16:15:19 -0700 From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Making Mocs I have a question about making mocs. I am having problems getting the heel right. I first sewed them up too loose so the moc did not fit right. It was surprise to me that the biggest problem with loose mocs is that they slide forward Then I frog sewed/unsewed (Rip it, rip it). I tried to shape the heel like it shows in the Book of Buckskin III. It ended up fitting real nice but it left the horizontal seam under the heel of my foot. This is uncomfortable as well as leaving threads exposed to excess wear. How wide is best to make the heel seam, ie how high up from the bottom to cut it? And how do you get the moc to fit and be tight without getting that seam to far forward? Guess I should not complain, at least my mocs are getting sewed on instead of my leg. Best of luck Capt. Wynn Ormond - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:49:01 -0800 From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Making Mocs > How wide is best to make the heel seam, ie how high up from the bottom > to cut it? Wynn, Not that I am an expert but I have fought my way through a couple pairs over the years. Assuming your using fairly soft leather (so that is not part of the problem) this is how I approach it. I get the foot part to fit so that the moc closes over the top of my arch in such a manner that my foot will only go in as far as I wish. Then I worry about the back of the moc. Don't sew up the back until your happy with how your foot slides in. With that done, pinch the back of the moc from top down to decide where that back seam goes. Sew down but not all the way down. Leave that back seam a couple finger widths up from the heal but with enough leather sticking back past the heal to fold up and make the connection. Make your "rear" flap cuts just short of heal width and fold that flap up so it wraps the heal and comes up neatly to the bottom of the back seam. Trim the extra material that will be behind that flap so that you form a slight arch from one side to the other starting at where one side of the back flat comes in, over to the other side. You should now be able to fold the flap up, either leave it square or round it to match the cut out arch in the back of the body of the moc and sew it up around the edges with an overhand stitch like you were heming the bottom of a pair of pants. Just keeping the flap from falling down. You could use an in/out stitch but it might be harder, depends on your needle and such. Your choice. And how do you get the moc to fit and be tight without > getting that seam to far forward? Like I said, you just have to get the front part fitting before you try to close up the back seam. remember to do it with socks and etc. if your using them. Hope this helps. Thanks for the well wishes on the leg bobbing job next week. Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 17:51:24 -0800 From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! >From: Allen Hall >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! >Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 18:07:50 -0700 > >At 06:40 PM 2/7/2002 EST, you wrote: > >Here it my two cents on trapping beaver .I use #4 victor long spring with > >about a eight foot chain. I will place the trap near shore then I will >run > >the chain out into the water about five are six feet away from the trap. >take > >the o ring run pole through it and drive it into the stream bottom. Next >ran > >three are four stakes around the pole .As the beaver is caught he swims >for > >deeper water and ends up going arond the stakes with the chain the chain >gets > >wrapped around the stakes. and drowns. Rick, I sent your method of trapping beaver using the 'tangle stakes' to my brother, Eric. His reply was: "Sue, that tanglestake idea may have worked some of the time. Yet, if one traps enough places with different terrain they will encounter soft muddy bottoms, and the silt found in old beaver marshes made many beaver generations ago. Again, the bedrock found in many streams makes it impossible to drive a stake. Unless you drilled holes during the summer months using an airtrack drill and drained the area. Also, the gravel bottom rivers will not hold a stake. I can not beleive the bygone trappers just avoided trapping thease areas where the river bottoms were not fit for driving stakes. Most likely the 'float stick' that you mentioned worked like the marks in the soil from a drag on a coyote trap. In that the dry dead wood was attached to a string and tied to the trap chain. That way when the beavers drug off the trap from the stake that pulled out or the different set arangement, the beaver and trap could be found. Hard to fathom anyone beleiving the 'tangle stake' method was the only one utilized. If it was, then evidently mountain men lost more than they caught: which I doubt. Sue, you might tell those boys the drowning wire didn't come into being in trapping till the early 20th century. Most likely during the depression trapping boom or before. As for the conibear #330s; I think they realize how authentic a trap that they are. Sue, you remember all those beaver I snuck in the house to show grandma and guests at times when I knew mother wouldn't chew me out in front of company. Well, it sounds like a few of those aledged trappers are only quoting a book; never actually having trully made an effective beaver set nor laid any steel." Well, Rick that's eric's oppinion. is there any other method that a trapper could use other than tangle stakes and an anchor pole? Interesting, Sue Raven _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 18:11:54 -0800 From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! >From: TrapRJoe@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! >Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 07:38:57 EST > >I hate to disagree, but if you claim a trap will drown a beaver with its >weight alone, you either have caught nothing but kits, or sir you like a >lot >of the old mountain men, sure embellish the truth. Trapper Joe, Eric, my brother wholely agrees with you. But based upon some of the documents one wonders what actual methods were used. Like a lot of things; when beaver were no longer in vogue the art died out. Many of the methods were either never written down or told to anyone except those in the trade. Why would a man seek more competition or those whom would catch his future beaver. The following is from Mrs. Fuller's book: The River of the West Chapter III. 1830. Sublette's camp commenced moving back to the east side of the Rocky Mountains in October. Its course was up Henry's fork of the Snake River, through the North Pass to Missouri Lake, in which rises the Madison fork of the Missouri River. The beaver were very plenty on Henry's fork, and our young trapper had great success in making up his packs; having learned the art of setting his traps very readily. The manner in which the trapper takes his game is as follows:-- He has an ordinary steel trap weighing five pounds, attached to a chain five feet long, with a swivel and ring at the end, which plays round what is called the float, a dry stick of wood, about six feet long. The trapper wades out into the stream, which is shallow, and cuts with his knife a bed for the trap, five or six inches under water. He then takes the float out the whole length of the chain in the direction of the centre of the stream, and drives it into the mud, so fast that the beaver cannot draw it out; at the same time tying the other end by a thong to the bank. A small stick or twig, dipped in musk or castor, serves for bait, and is placed so as to hang directly above the trap, which is now set. The trapper then throws water plentifully over the adjacent bank to conceal any foot prints or scent by which the beaver would be alarmed, and going to some distance wades out of the stream. In setting a trap, several things are to be observed with care:--first, that the trap is firmly fixed, and the proper distance from the bank--for if the beaver can get on shore with the trap, he will cut off his foot to escape: secondly, that the float is of dry wood, for should it not be, the little animal will cut it off at a stroke, and swimming with the trap to the middle of the dam, be drowned by its weight. In the latter case, when the hunter visits his traps in the morning, he is under the necessity of plunging into the water and swimming out to dive for the missing trap, and his game. Should the morning be frosty and chill, as it very frequently is in the mountains, diving for traps is not the pleasantest exercise. In placing the bait, care must be taken to fix it just where the beaver in reaching it will spring the trap. If the bait-stick be placed high, the hind foot of the beaver will be caught: if low, his fore foot. The manner in which the beavers make their dam, and construct their lodge, has long been reckoned among the wonders of the animal creation; and while some observers have claimed for the little creature more sagacity than it really possesses, its instinct is still sufficiently wonderful. It is certainly true that it knows how to keep the water of a stream to a certain level, by means of an obstruction; and that it cuts down trees for the purpose of backing up the water by a dam. It is not true, however, that it can always fell a tree in the direction required for this purpose. The timber about a beaver dam is felled in all directions; but as trees that grow near the water, generally lean towards it, the tree, when cut, takes the proper direction by gravitation alone. The beaver then proceeds to cut up the fallen timber into lengths of about three feet, and to convey them to the spot where the dam is to be situated, securing them in their places by means of mud and stones. The work is commenced when the water is low, and carried on as it rises, until it has attained the desired height. And not only is it made of the requisite height and strength, but its shape is suited exactly to the nature of the stream in which it is built. If the water is sluggish the dam is straight; if rapid and turbulent, the barrier is constructed of a convex form, the better to resist the action of the water. Of course I have always beleived that men have always told women the whole truth. Sue Raven _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 00:38:49 EST From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver catch (Trapper productivity) I once wrote on article on trapper productivity during the fur trade era. If anyone is interested, I could post it ont the list. Could do it as an attachment, just post it, or make it available to those who request it. Anybody have a preference? (does anyone want to see it?) Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 00:54:32 EST From: Lwchavis@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver catch (Trapper productivity) - --part1_139.91e9823.29961398_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/8/02 11:39:36 PM Central Standard Time, Casapy123@aol.com writes: > Anybody have a preference? (does anyone want to see it?) > Mr.Hardee, I'd like to see it, however you share it. Larry in MS - --part1_139.91e9823.29961398_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/8/02 11:39:36 PM Central Standard Time, Casapy123@aol.com writes:


Anybody have a preference? (does anyone want to see it?)


Mr.Hardee,
I'd like to see it, however you share it.
Larry in MS - --part1_139.91e9823.29961398_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 22:38:17 -0800 From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver catch (Trapper productivity) Jim, could you write it out long hand and bring it by? I'd appreciate it. It seems to me I have seen it? Was it published? T & LR? sure sounds familiar. I heard HBC was fun, if not crowded. Looking forward to seeing you in the Spring. Will you be coming to the mission? Hope so. YFAB hardtack > Anybody have a preference? (does anyone want to see it?) > > Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 - --- Randal Bublitz - --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Ch - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 04:38:36 -0800 From: Rick Guglielmi Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver catch (Trapper productivity) I would be most interested in reading your article. Rick At 12:38 AM 02/09/2002 -0500, you wrote: >I once wrote on article on trapper productivity during the fur trade era. If >anyone is interested, I could post it ont the list. Could do it as an >attachment, just post it, or make it available to those who request it. >Anybody have a preference? (does anyone want to see it?) > >Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 07:39:20 -0700 From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver catch (Trapper productivity) > At 12:38 AM 02/09/2002 -0500, you wrote: > >I once wrote on article on trapper productivity during the fur trade era. If > >anyone is interested, I could post it ont the list. Could do it as an > >attachment, just post it, or make it available to those who request it. > >Anybody have a preference? (does anyone want to see it?) > > > >Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 Please make it available. I have concidered doing a little number crunching myself and I am sure you used the same (Ogdens) or better sources than I would. Mind Yer Hair Wynn Ormond - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 06:53:02 -0800 (PST) From: George Noe Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver catch (Trapper productivity) Jim, Add me to the list. grn > Anybody have a preference? (does anyone want to see > it?) > > Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 10:02:43 -0500 From: hikingonthru@cs.com Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Making Mocs Wynn, Leather does wierd things of tis own accord sometimes. Best I can tell you is to pound the bejeezus out of the seam with a hammer to flatten it and make it less irritating or save the sole and try again. By the by, it sounds as if you are trying plains style mocs. For a mtn.man portrayal, a center seam moc is just as correct. Many of the folks from back east wore these style mocs and most of the native heritage trappers would have had this style moc if they were making their own to replace what wore out. They are easy to make and have one seam...none of it under your heel!! And you can affix rawhide to the hi-wear areas to prolong their life pretty easily. - -C.Kent - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 10:38:15 EST From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver catch (Trapper productivity) Yes add me to that list would love to see it. Traphand Rick Petzoldt Traphand@aol.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 14:01:16 EST From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! What you have written that the book said is for the most part true with the only variances that see would have looked that way to someone who didn't know better. There are several ways to set the trap where he will expire before the trapper gets back to check the trap. The way you write it is very close to one of those ways. Today we have wire and cable that makes the process much surer and easier. TrapRJoe - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:36:14 -0500 From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! Hi TrapRJoe, Of coarse you are right. There are many ways to set, steak, anchor or utilize drag's on traps today, both on land and in the water. I have used most of them at one time or another depending on the targeted critter, the location and terrain. My correction to what was posted, was long winded enough, without going into specifics on all the methods (making for an even longer answer), and I was trying to keep in mind that we should be talking primarily about period methods of trapping, and much less about modern methods. I think for most every "rule of thumb" you can come up with, there is also an exception to that "rule". Also the law and part of the country you are trapping in makes a difference in what methods you might choose to use. As you know, back in the early 1800's, they had wire, they just didn't use it (or know they could use it???) for trapping like we do today. On their traps, they used chain with a ring on the end, put a sturdy dry (not beaver food) stick through the ring, and as the ring and stick spent time in the water, the wood swelled in the ring making the trap pretty secure to the stick. If a beaver did manage to pull the steak, the trapper walked down the stream looking for his floating stick, hence the term "That's how my stick floats." I have often said that today's trappers are more knowledgeable and efficient trappers than the period trappers were, due to today's greater availability of information, technology, equipment and methods. The old trappers used to walk long distances of waterfront to find just the right place to set a trap. Today, we know that the trapper can pick most any spot, modify it to their liking, and set a productive beaver trap, even in a place a real beaver wouldn't pick. All things considered, what the period trappers had to work with, they did a hell of a job!!! My hat's certainly off to them!!! YMHS, John Enos TrapRJohn traprjon@mediaone.net "The saddest epitaph which can be carved in memory of a vanished liberty, is that it was lost because its possessors failed to stretch forth a saving hand, while yet there was time." - -- Justice George Sutherland, 1938 - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 2:01 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! > What you have written that the book said is for the most part true with the > only variances that see would have looked that way to someone who didn't know > better. There are several ways to set the trap where he will expire before > the trapper gets back to check the trap. The way you write it is very close > to one of those ways. Today we have wire and cable that makes the process > much surer and easier. > > TrapRJoe > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:04:45 -0500 From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:trapping and other stuff ! (baits) sue--- I had to trap several areas in the ozarks that there was no way to drive a stake in the creek bottom or the lake bottom and what i normally did was tie a drag rock to the chain and place it out into the water and i would tie some light cord on to the rock---when the beaver would get cought they have a tendency to go to deep water and when they do they drag the rock into deeper water and thus drownd then-- when i come by the set and the trap is gone i would grab the light rope and pull the beaver in which was attached to the trap and the drag rock I tried the tangle method a few times but didnt have much success with it in the area i was trapping---the state trapper that trapped for wolves and ki-dogs used a metal 3 prong dragg on a lot of their sets---I didnt like that method but the good part is that they didnt mess up you set but you had to follow the dragg to retreve your trap and the animal in it------with the stakes and tangel method o it gives a indication that there was a trap close and people would steal your traps ---it was kina like a flag on the creek or lake for all to see---I used a lot of castoreum that i bought thru the trappers magazine called fur-fish and game smelly stuff but relly will make a beaver come to your trap I would dip a stick in it and let it hang out over the trap about a couple of feet from the bank---that way the beaver was not on solid ground and yes you can drown a beaver in a couple of feet of water if you do it right--- always wanted to make my own castorium but never knew exactly how and it was made and it was a lot easier to just buy the scent and know it was right------just as with fox and bobcat sents---all those is just basic urine ---the best bate for muskrat i found was just a slice of apple or a ear of corn on a stick near the bank with a trap set next to it---but i did get a few on the castorium for some reason---have been running traps and set one and then went down the way and heard it snap there was so many muskrats in the area that that i trapped that was one reason i ran the traps twice a day---had to make room for more rats in the trap---muskrat are a lot easier to catch than beaver---I got where i could almost eliminate a muskrat colony in a few weeks if i worked it right and that was what the farmers liked because they ruined their dams with the holes---one other method that i liked was that I would make a flote in some of the swampy area and set the trap on the float cought several that way ----also when i was in a area where i ran out of traps i would also make fish hook traps and got a lot of rats in their dens underwater using that method---using a board and fish-hooks and screws---boy would the peta people come unglued if the saw that trick done---the best coon fox and bobcat bate i ever found was just plain old sardeans or the oil out of the cans---for the foxes and bobcats i used dead chickens or turkeys i picked up from the guy who raised them for market I would take a string and just hang then up over the trap---got a few wild house cats with that method also---bet i cought my grandmothers cat a half dozen times---got to a point when she would get cought she would just lay down and wait for me to come a release her---that is the real problem in trapping in or near areas that there are houses and or pets---have released a bunch of them over the ages---usually warned the people in the area i would be trapping so they could keep the pets close to the house and not in the woods---most appreciated the warning and some didnt listen and i cought their dogs and cats---I also had several box traps that i used where there was pets in the area and you couldnt controll them and their movements---they worked good and did not harm the pets when you caught them---cought a couple of minks in box traps but that was just luck---they are hard to catch and you relly have to watch your scent best sets for them were cubby type of sets--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of the "Old Grizz (C) product line & "the Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 19:34:52 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Fur Trade Houses - research With all the knowledge accumulated in the group, I am sure someone can help me with some research: I am trying to piece together a composit of what a fur trade post would be like - west of the Mississippi, American influence and strong Hudsons'Bay influence. In size smaller than Fort Union, but larger than Astoria. Information I am trying to accumulate includes: what activities were housed within the palasades such as Factor's quarters, storehouse, trade house, staff quarters, clerk's accomodations, blacksmith shop, "utilities" shop, root cellar, etc. and assign floor plan dimensions to each. The composite structure that will come from this is to be correct in every way that building codes will allow, realizing the public must be "protected". Similarly the materials inside and the activites will be correct to the period - not Hollywood and not contemporary "wannabes". Right now it is the architecture that is getting the attention to plan for budget. I have as reference good details from Fort Ross, Fort Osage, Fort Michilimakinac, and Fort Ligoner (not geographically correct nor correct in purpose in all cases, but how the problems of structure and needs were met. This is a serious project and any and all input will be very much appreciated. Richard James - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 16:41:34 -0800 From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:trapping and other stuff ! (baits)



>From: hawknest4@juno.com
>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List:trapping and other stuff ! (baits)
>Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:04:45 -0500
>
>sue---
>I had to trap several areas in the ozarks that there was no way to drive
>a stake in the creek bottom or the lake bottom and what i normally did
>was tie a drag rock to the chain and place it out into the water and i
>would tie some light cord on to the rock---when the beaver would get
>cought they have a tendency to go to deep water and when they do they
>drag the rock into deeper water and thus drownd then-- when i come by the
>set and the trap is gone i would grab the light rope and pull the beaver
>in which was attached to the trap and the drag rock I tried the tangle

>method a few times but didnt have much success with it in the area i was

>trapping---

     My brother Eric told me years ago about when he hunted and ran traps in the Blue river(eastern Arizona-south of Alpine), of how he made a simular set.  He told me of a non-target racoon that came into his set.  The rock he had xmas wrapped with double wire was setting on a ledge under water.  The racoon did not pull the heavy rock in the water.  Evidently Rocky knew of his fate if he swam for it.  Eric said it was sure funny seeing this racoon rock and wobble that rock as he approached.  I was so mad at him because he didn't bring it home alive and call me.  He said you can't domesticate grown wild animals that easy.  He said the pull out problem was so bad on coons that he usually drowed them if near water.  He said he caugh ducks, muskrat, and racoons many times on beaver sets.  This method makes good sense for a trapper on limited technology.  Besides, I do not know if a beaver would chew the rope off a rock; but they did have wire a Fort Union prior to 1840.

       I'll e-mail Eric and see if he will share his formulae for making beaver lure or medicine as ye mountaineers say. 

I'm really jealous of you guys having all the fun,
 
Sur Raven

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- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 16:49:08 -0800 From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain!



Mr. John Enos,
 
I would like your critique of the quality of the info on this site on beavers.
 
Sue Raven

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- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 20:36:52 EST From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: ARTICLE - Trapper Productivity Here is the article in its entirety. It was published in The Trapline, vol. 3, #3, Spring 2000. I hope you find it helpful. Trapper Productivity By Jim Hardee Records of production typically drive success in the workplace, i.e. how many widgets can worker "A" turn out during a given shift? Similarly, determining the production of a fur trapper, in terms of beaver pelts gathered, provides a better understanding of a day's effort in the Shining Mountains. Just how many skins did an average trapper take? In a discussion of trapper productivity, some general assumptions must be made. For example, the length of the trapping season varied from year to year, depending on weather extremes, location, etc. Usually, the season was divided into a Spring and a Fall hunt, each generally lasting for two to three months. Ultimately, general averages must be used for a statistical analysis of trapper productivity. Nathaniel Wyeth estimated a good hunter with average success would take 120 beaver skins in a year, worth in Boston or New York about $1000. (Chittenden. Vol. 1 p.6) This is a nice succinct statement of a trapper's average productivity equating to sixty skins per hunt or about twenty hides per month. Unfortunately, averages are simply that; a mathematical mid-point between a high and low figure. Warren Ferris provides an example of these highs and lows. He reported his 1831 American Fur Company brigade took from forty to seventy beaver per day on Henry's Fork. In the same breath, he described a small party sent to the "Burnt Hole" on the Madison River that returned without success. These numbers would have more meaning had Ferris provided the number of hunters involved. (Ferris. 159-60) Another example of the fickle nature of the business is Thomas Fitzpatrick's report that Benjamin Bonneville's entire fall hunt in 1833 netted only 112 skins. That is less than forty skins per month for a party consisting of 110 men. (Morgan and Harris. P. 255.) Examination of further examples of production can be examined to determine if Wyeth's estimate is on the mark. In 1825, William Ashley arrived in St. Louis with one hundred packs of beaver skins. While it is generally accepted that a pack weighed about ninety to one hundred pounds, Ashley's packs only weighed an average of fifty-two pounds each. This is according to a chart in his account book that lists the first twenty-five packs. Assuming these represent the remainder, each pack contained an average of thirty-two beaver hides making a typical pelt weigh 1.625 pounds. Ashley's one hundred packs with about thirty-two hides in each one then equals 3200 total hides. (Morgan. "Smith" pp. 170 - 173. Morgan "Ashley" pp. 118-29. Russell. p.157.) From Ashley's report, there were one hundred twenty men at the rendezvous. This equates to about twenty-seven hides per man. Yet, most of the men recorded in Ashley's accounts with the trappers at the rendezvous show far more than this average. The seven men under Jedediah Smith, for instance, average ninety-six pounds of beaver each, about one hundred and fifty skins. Smith himself is credited with an amazing six hundred sixty eight pounds of hides. At first glance, this is almost unbelievable, but a closer examination shows he is only credited with $275.00. With beaver at $3.00 per pound, this equals about ninety two hides; a far more reasonable total of pelts. (Morgan "Ashley" pp. 126.) Did none of the Henry-Ashley men attain Wyeth's average? Much of the confusion can be attributed to the difference in assignments of the men in a trapping party. Not all of the men are trappers, some being camp keepers. These latter men generally stayed in camp to watch the stock, prepare the meals, dress the beaver hides and any of the other mundane activities required in the camp. Ferris reports that up to half of the men in the mountains were camp keepers. (Ferris. pp. 361-62.) Historian Hiram M Chittenden, author of "A History of the American Fur Trade of the Far West," says there was usually one camp keeper for every two trappers. (Chittenden. pp. 54-55.) In the brigade of men under Smith alluded to above, Ezekiel Able is only credited with four pounds of beaver while most of his fellows all took vastly more hides. Able must have been such a camp keeper in this brigade. Two other men, Thomas Eddie and William bell, had fifty-six and fifty pounds credited to their respective accounts, while the remaining four men have well over one hundred pounds each. Thomas Galbraith tallies one hundred eighty-nine pounds alone. Eddie and Bell may have been camp keepers too. This would make three out of the eight men making up Smith's brigade assigned to the role of camp keeper, which closely approximates Chittenden's report. Applying these percentages of camp keepers to the one hundred twenty men at the first rendezvous increases the individual trapper's take to forty and fifty-three skins per man; still far short of Wyeth's projection. Wyeth apparently wrote this figure in an attempt to drum up financial backing for a proposed expedition to the mountains. Perhaps he was too optimistic. In 1832, Indian John Dougherty compiled a chart indicating the expenditures, returns and profits in the fur trade for the fifteen-year period from 1815 to 1830. The chart does not stipulate that all the returns are solely from the rocky Mountain trade and does not differentiate between hides obtained through trading and trapping. Using the gross numbers in the chart and applying the same three percentages of camp keepers used above, Dougherty indicates the annual return per man to be one hundred twenty-five, one hundred eighty-six and two hundred fifty skins. Exactly what information Dougherty based his calculations on is unknown, but he appears to anticipate greater returns than Wyeth does. (Chittenden. Vol. 1 p.7) Perhaps looking at specific returns will reveal further information. In 1826, Ashley's rendezvous in Cache Valley netted him one hundred twenty-five packs that brought him $60,000 in St. Louis. This comes out to $480 per pack which, with beaver at $5.00 per pound in St. Louis, closer approximates the readily accepted one hundred pound pack. Records show there were one hundred men at the second rendezvous. Again, applying the same ratios as above, the beaver taken per trapper calculates to seventy-six, one hundred fourteen and one hundred fifty-three hides. Considering camp keepers into the mix of trappers brings the return closer to Wyeth's estimate. (Gowans. p. 31. Wishart. p. 126.) Rendezvous of 1829 netted Smith, Jackson and Sublette 4,076 beaver skins. Robert Newell recalled in his memoirs that there were one hundred seventy-five men present. While this number seems high, if it is accurate, the success rate of the men was quite low. Using the same calculations, the average take becomes fourteen, twenty-one and twenty-eight, respectively for each ratio of trapper to camp keeper. Newell was, himself, a newcomer to the Rockies, having arrived as one of the fifty-five man crew with Sublette's supply caravan. If Newell included these men in his total, they should be subtracted from the total attendees he says were there for they were obviously not involved in procuring the fifty-five packs of beaver turned in at the rendezvous. Reducing the participants to one hundred twenty increases the averages to twenty-one, thirty-one and forty-one. This is still not terrific but is a little better. It is a wonder the company could stay in business. In a letter to Francis Ematinger, Wyeth himself provides information regarding two brigades that can be used in this discussion. The brigade under Andrew Drips and Lucien Fontenelle arrived to the 1832 rendezvous in Pierre's Hole on July 8th. They had one hundred sixty men with them and had obtained fifty-one packs of beaver at one hundred pounds each. If all the men are trappers, the average take is only twenty hides per man. If two out of three are trappers, the take increases to thirty per man. Finally, if half the men are trappers, the take reaches forty skins a piece; still far short of Wyeth's lofty goal for a good trapper. (Wyeth. p. 111) The same letter includes date on the rocky Mountain Fur Company who showed up with fifty-five packs of fur but only fifty-five men. That is one pack of hides per man. If all are trappers, that is a yearly average of about sixty-one beaver each. With only two thirds of the men trapping while one third attend camp, the average raises to about ninety-one per trapper. If half the men are camp keepers then the average finally attains Wyeth's prediction of one hundred twenty pelts per trapper. (Wyeth. p. 111) None of these calculations take into consideration how many hides were traded for with Indians. Also not considered is how many pelts may have been stolen by Indians, lost while crossing a swollen river, spoiled by damage to a hidden cache or in any other way taken but not making it to rendezvous for whatever reason. Any of these factors could effect the average take per trapper. # HIDES HIDES PER MAN YEAR LBS. (1.625 LB/HIDE) # MEN ALL TR. 1/3 C.K. 1/2 C.K. 1825 8829 5433 120 45 68 91 1826 12500 7692 100 77 115 154 1829a 4076 2508 175 14 21 29 1829b 4076 2508 120 21 31 42 1832 (Drips) 5100 3138 160 20 29 39 1832 (RMF) 5500 3385 55 62 91 121 Dougherty's 15 yr. Est. 25,000 200 125 167 250 References: Chittenden, Hiram M. The American Fur Trade of the Far West. Vol 1. Academic Reprints, Stanford, CA, 1954. Dale, Harrison. The Ashley-Smith Explorations and the Discovery of a Central Route to the Pacific. Arthur Clark Co. Glendale, CA. 1941 Ferris, Warren A. Life in the Rocky Mountains. Old West Publishing. Denver, 1983. Gowans, Fred. Rocky Mountain Rendezvous. Gibbs-Smith, Layton, UT. 1985. Harris, Eleanor T. and Morgan, Dale L. The Rocky Mountain Journals of William Marshall Anderson. Huntington Library, San Marino, CA. 1967. Morgan, Dale. Jedediah Smith and the Opening of the West. Bobbs-Merril, NY. 1953. _____ . The West of William Ashley. Old West Publishing, Denver. 1964. Wishart, David J. The Fur Trade of the American West, 1807-1840. University of Nebraska Press, Lincoln. 1979. Wyeth, Nathaniel J. Journal of Captain Nathaniel J. Wyeth's Expeditions to the Oregon Country, 1831-1836. Ye Galleon Press, Fairfield, WA. 1984. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #950 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.