Summer material?

Is this an MS Internet Explorer construct? It doesn't work with my Netscape. The columns are all superimposed on each other. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== -- Irreantum Editor's Discussion List ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: [irr-ed] Board response to Irreantum.org Date: 27 Jun 2003 11:27:16 -0600 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33CD1.5AAB8F10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hey, the board likes this idea well enough to encourage Quinn to go forward with a full-blown proposed site. However, they did not say to go live with it until they can review it again. I think they are mainly concerned to find out how difficult and complex it turns out to be to compile the material. They don't want to publicize a new website and then have it not live up to expectations or be updated regularly. Also, they reiterated that permissions/rights definitely need to be handled correctly. So, Quinn, let me know what you need from me. I can send you PDFs of any Irreantum issues for you to copy and paste from. I also have contact info for nearly all the authors. And you can ask any of us for help with specific tasks. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33CD1.5AAB8F10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Board response to Irreantum.org

Hey, the board likes this idea well enough to = encourage Quinn to go forward with a full-blown proposed site.

However, they did not say to go live with it until = they can review it again. I think they are mainly concerned to find out = how difficult and complex it turns out to be to compile the material. = They don't want to publicize a new website and then have it not live up = to expectations or be updated regularly.

Also, they reiterated that permissions/rights = definitely need to be handled correctly.

So, Quinn, let me know what you need from me. I can = send you PDFs of any Irreantum issues for you to copy and paste from. I = also have contact info for nearly all the authors. And you can ask any = of us for help with specific tasks.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C33CD1.5AAB8F10-- -- Irreantum Editor's Discussion List ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: [irr-ed] Board response to Irreantum.org Date: 27 Jun 2003 11:42:39 -0600 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33CD3.80F60A40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hey, the board likes this idea well enough to encourage Quinn to go forward with a full-blown proposed site. However, they did not say to go live with it until they can review it again. I think they are mainly concerned to find out how difficult and complex it turns out to be to compile the material. They don't want to publicize a new website and then have it not live up to expectations or be updated regularly. Also, they reiterated that permissions/rights definitely need to be handled correctly. So, Quinn, let me know what you need from me. I can send you PDFs of any Irreantum issues for you to copy and paste from. I also have contact info for nearly all the authors. And you can ask any of us for help with specific tasks. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33CD3.80F60A40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Board response to Irreantum.org

Hey, the board likes this idea well enough to = encourage Quinn to go forward with a full-blown proposed site.

Also, they reiterated that permissions/rights = definitely need to be handled correctly.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C33CD3.80F60A40-- -- Irreantum Editor's Discussion List ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Quinn Warnick" Subject: Re: [irr-ed] Irreantum website Date: 27 Jun 2003 16:40:15 -0400 I'm using this email to respond to big-picture issues about the proposed site. I'll send another one with my responses to specific design critiques of the mock-up. Chris Bigelow wrote: | Hey, the board likes this idea well enough to encourage Quinn to go forward | with a full-blown proposed site. Great! I'll create a more complete mockup over the weekend and post it on this list for further comments and criticisms. Thanks to those of you who have taken the time to evaluate the site and respond. Chris wrote: | I think they are mainly concerned to find out how difficult and complex it | turns out to be to compile the material. They don't want to publicize a new | website and then have it not live up to expectations or be updated | regularly. I understand their concerns completely. But I really think the design for the site lends itself to having sections that are updated quarterly (with the release of each new issue), as well as sections that are updated daily/weekly/monthly, depending on how much people want to get involved. At first, I envision asking people to send me links to news/reviews/announcements/etc., which I will update the site with. But once the system is in place and working well, I'd like to extend posting privileges to the entire editorial board and even the AML board, if they're interested. Chris reiterated the permissions thing, based on Marny's comments: | On a larger content note: We have not asked permission from anyone to | post their articles/stories/etc. electronically. We MUST as specific | permission to do this. [snip] Electronic rights are | a big deal to many authors. I agree, and I only used the snippets I did because I wanted the people on this (relatively small) list to see what I had in mind. Speaking as the new fiction editor, I've never seen a permission form for authors to sign. Since we do almost everything via email, how have we gone about getting permissions in the past? And can we change the permissions form to include the possibility that some or all of the published work will be available online? I think most people we publish would be fine with this, as long as they knew in advance. And for those who aren't OK with it, we don't have to put their stuff online. Again, I don't think the site will have 100% of the printed material available. As for authors who are published in our back issues, we will definitely need to inform them of our desire to put their work online. Maybe Chris can post the tables of contents for the past several issues and the editorial board members can pick a piece or two from each issue in their genre that they'd like to seee on the website. If each of us can contact our people individually to get clearance, it will go much faster. Again, do we have specific legalese for this, or do we need someone to craft some? On the PDF issue, I think offering the PDF file for sale is an interesting idea, but it isn't what I had in mind for the site. At the same time, I definitely think it's worth discussing. The profit margin on PDF files is 100% (minus PayPal commission). The downside is that once the file is emailed to someone, they can pass it along to anyone they want. If we're OK with having the magazine out there (and if we trust our readers to not give it out for free), then I think it might be a good idea. Quinn -- Irreantum Editor's Discussion List ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: RE: [irr-ed] Irreantum website Date: 27 Jun 2003 14:53:13 -0600 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33CEE.1FE525E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" <<< Speaking as the new fiction editor, I've never seen a permission form for authors to sign. Since we do almost everything via email, how have we gone about getting permissions in the past?>>> We've done nothing centralized or official. <<>> Permissions form? We've just done stuff informally via e-mail. So who wants to write an Irreantum permission form? It's probably time we professionalize ourselves to that degree. I remember one at the Ensign but can't remember what it said. <<< As for authors who are published in our back issues, we will definitely need to inform them of our desire to put their work online. Maybe Chris can post the tables of contents for the past several issues and the editorial board members can pick a piece or two from each issue in their genre that they'd like to seee on the website. >>> Can you just check your printed copies? Or let me know what specific issue you need the ToC posted for. (They're in Mac Quark files, which I don't have easy access to but can get if needed.) But I can certainly get full text from Quark files once a particular piece is identified and OKed for us to post. <<< If each of us can contact our people individually to get clearance, it will go much faster. Again, do we have specific legalese for this, or do we need someone to craft some?>>> I can provide contact info for most all the authors. I'm not sure about the legalese. Marny or someone, can you help? <<< On the PDF issue, I think offering the PDF file for sale is an interesting idea, but it isn't what I had in mind for the site. At the same time, I definitely think it's worth discussing. The profit margin on PDF files is 100% (minus PayPal commission). The downside is that once the file is emailed to someone, they can pass it along to anyone they want. If we're OK with having the magazine out there (and if we trust our readers to not give it out for free), then I think it might be a good idea. >>> I'm in favor of pushing our material as far out there as it will go. I would support either selling or giving away PDFs of full issues, whatever you want to experiment with. The only thing is that if print subscriptions started to drop, I would want to curtail any free distribution. But as long as print subs stay level or rise, I don't care if we give away 1,000 free PDFs (actually, that would be great!). The more eyeballs on our stuff, the better--it all works to the benefit of Irreantum, the AML, and Mormon lit. Let me know if you want any of our Paypal account info to build any payment links to anything. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33CEE.1FE525E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [irr-ed] Irreantum website

<<<
Speaking as the new
fiction editor, I've never seen a permission form = for authors to sign. Since
we do almost everything via email, how have we gone = about getting
permissions in the past?>>>

We've done nothing centralized or official.

<<<And can we change the permissions form to = include
the possibility that some or all of the published = work will be available
online? I think most people we publish would be fine = with this, as long as
they knew in advance. And for those who aren't OK = with it, we don't have to
put their stuff online. Again, I don't think the = site will have 100% of the
printed material available.
>>>

Permissions form? We've just done stuff informally = via e-mail.

So who wants to write an Irreantum permission form? = It's probably time we professionalize ourselves to that degree. I = remember one at the Ensign but can't remember what it said.

<<<
As for authors who are published in our back issues, = we will definitely need
to inform them of our desire to put their work = online. Maybe Chris can post
the tables of contents for the past several issues = and the editorial board
members can pick a piece or two from each issue in = their genre that they'd
like to seee on the website.
>>>

Can you just check your printed copies? Or let me = know what specific issue you need the ToC posted for. (They're in Mac = Quark files, which I don't have easy access to but can get if = needed.)

But I can certainly get full text from Quark files = once a particular piece is identified and OKed for us to post.

<<<
If each of us can contact our people
individually to get clearance, it will go much = faster. Again, do we have
specific legalese for this, or do we need someone to = craft some?>>>

I can provide contact info for most all the authors. = I'm not sure about the legalese. Marny or someone, can you help?

<<<
On the PDF issue, I think offering the PDF file for = sale is an interesting
idea, but it isn't what I had in mind for the site. = At the same time, I
definitely think it's worth discussing. The profit = margin on PDF files is
100% (minus PayPal commission). The downside is that = once the file is
emailed to someone, they can pass it along to anyone = they want. If we're OK
with having the magazine out there (and if we trust = our readers to not give
it out for free), then I think it might be a good = idea.
>>>

I'm in favor of pushing our material as far out there = as it will go. I would support either selling or giving away PDFs of = full issues, whatever you want to experiment with. The only thing is = that if print subscriptions started to drop, I would want to curtail = any free distribution. But as long as print subs stay level or rise, I = don't care if we give away 1,000 free PDFs (actually, that would be = great!). The more eyeballs on our stuff, the better--it all works to = the benefit of Irreantum, the AML, and Mormon lit.

Let me know if you want any of our Paypal account = info to build any payment links to anything.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C33CEE.1FE525E0-- -- Irreantum Editor's Discussion List ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Parkin" Subject: Re: [irr-ed] Irreantum website Date: 27 Jun 2003 15:50:32 -0600 D. Michael Martindale asked: >

> > Is this an MS Internet Explorer construct? It doesn't work with my > Netscape. The columns are all superimposed on each other. That's plain old HTML. What Netscape appears to be choking on is the CSS information it references. Which shouldn't be happening, at least not with a modern browser. What version of Netscape are you using? Anything version 6 or newer should work correctly. 4.x was iffy. At the risk of being annoying and pedantic, CSS (Cascading Style Sheet) technology is a standard of the World Wide Web Consortium and has been since 1998. It looks like Netscape is non-compliant with the approved standard and needs to update. Quinn didn't do anything radical with his style declarations (I looked), so the page should have rendered correctly on a modern, W3C-compliant browser. It does bring up a point, though. The page design relies heavily on CSS and any people who have older or non-compliant browsers will run into the problem D. Michael did. If at all possible we should either do some version checking (ugh) and redirect, or have some other graceful fail state for those users. Critique of the design in another post. Scott Parkin -- Irreantum Editor's Discussion List ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Parkin" Subject: Re: [irr-ed] Irreantum website Date: 27 Jun 2003 15:58:01 -0600 I think it looks very, very nice and I love the structured implementation. It should make update relatively easy and could even foster an simple XML application for creating content. I really liked it. A lot. Still, I have do have a couple of personal reactions/suggestions: * Too pastel. I had a hard time seeing the pale headline and link colors against the shaded background. Then again, I'm mildly red/green color blind and that sort of thing happens a lot for me. * Could be more graphically interesting with logos and whatnot. Of course this was a quick design and there's plenty of opportunity to look at that sort of thing as it develops. * Headlines and links looked too similar. The colors were similar enough that I kept trying to click headlines (or at least hover over them and watch the colors change). Consider using a darker color for the headlines. * Too many horizontal lines for my tastes. It seemed a little too boxy at times. * I would have liked a little more distinctiveness among the three sections. Right now they all have nearly equal weight, so the center column content doesn't stand out as the focus of the page. I think you could reduce the point size on both of the sidebars and perhaps even narrow those margins just a tad to make the center column a bit more distinct and powerful. As I said, mostly little stuff. I really like the design, and I love the structure. I think there's still some room for tweaking, but I think it's mostly there as it is. Good stuff. Thanks for moving forward. Scott Parkin -- Irreantum Editor's Discussion List ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Quinn Warnick" Subject: Re: [irr-ed] Irreantum Design Date: 30 Jun 2003 13:50:38 -0400 [I wrote this email on Friday, but I made the mistake of attaching a screenshot of the website, and I don't think the server let it go through to the list. My apologies if you've already received this. With additions added below, it's quite long. Sorry about that.] This is the email where you all start to hate me for being a pretentious designer. But here goes nothing... Marny wrote: | A couple of twitchy things: Bring the text of the left | margin by a half-dozen pixels or so. I'm not sure what you're asking for here. Bring the text of the left margin WHERE by a half-dozen pixels? The site design is three columns, which are all contained in an invisible frame, which is centered on the screen. This format works best on multiple variations of screen-size. The distance from the left edge of your screen to where the text begins depends entirely on your screen resolution. If you have a high screen resolution, you'll see a lot of white space (actually, very light blue space, but we'll get to that later). If your resolution is lower, the design will fill the entire screen. If any of you have to scroll horizontally to see the whole front page, please let me know. If that's the case, I may have to resize the overall dimensions. Marny again: | And you can copy the AML logo of | the web site to put in the upper right corner (or somewhere else, but | I think we ought to have a stronger obvious tie to the main AML web | site). I agree -- I was waiting to get the original logo file to incorporate it into the look of the site, and it is now on its way, so the next beta version of the site will have a logo and a stronger visual tie to the AML. D. Michael wrote: |

| | Is this an MS Internet Explorer construct? It doesn't work with my | Netscape. The columns are all superimposed on each other. Ugh. I had a feeling we'd run into this. The site is designed using xhtml and CSS (cascading style sheets) positioning, rather than tables, which is what sites have been designed in since 1993 or so. In my opinion, CSS design is superior for a list of reasons too long to enumerate here, but I acknowledge the fact that about 2% of browsers aren't "standards compliant." The biggest offender is Netscape Navigator version 4 and lower. D. Mike, if you could let me know what browser you're using, it will let me know if I'm coding wrong or if you're using a browser that just won't read the site. I haven't done this part yet, but ultimately, the site will know if you're using an outdated browser and automatically strip all formatting out, leaving only the raw text. There will be a short notice on the site letting the visitors know that they're only getting the plain vanilla version, and if they want to upgrade their browser, they'll be able to enjoy the design of the site. The notice will contain a link to where they can go to find directions about upgrading (for free) to a standards-compliant browser. I know, I know, this is where people get angry that websites aren't serving everyone equally, and designers get labeled elitist and exclusionary. I'm not a designer by trade (only by hobby), so I understand those sentiments. But the reason I design my sites using CSS is because it helps them be MORE accessible -- for blind people who use braille browsers, for people who surf the web on their PDAs, etc... I hope this makes some sense. Travis wrote: | The Masthead is a wee naked. The "Online" in white is hard to read, unless | it had a lightly-colored background, e.g. The masthead will incorporate the AML logo as soon as I can redesign it. As for the "Online" being white on a light-blue background, that's intentional. I don't want the site to be different from the printed publication, but there needs to be a slight demarcation. Hence the dark "Irreantum" and the light "Online." Elsewhere on the site, we will just refer to it as "Irreantum" or "the online companion to Irreantum" or "Irreantum's online presence" or something like that. The Atlantic Monthly has created an enormous site that has a ton of online-only material, and they've called their site "Atlantic Unbound," which I really like. They've branded the name, and made it distinct from, yet still connected to the printed magazine. I don't think we'll have enough original material online to really brand "Irreantum Online," so the question becomes whether we leave the subtle "Online" there in the logo, or just take it out altogether. Travis again: | We need a link to the Mormon Lit | database: and perhaps a few links to | , that is links to our already established book reviews, | other Mormon magazines and research connections, and to the Table of | Contents page that includes the contents of past issues. As we put this | together, we ought to consider putting more links to examples of texts from | past issues. I hope you'll all email me with links like this, and I'll create a sidebar panel with lots of links to consistently good sites. As for the tables of contents, my other email addressed that a bit, but I hope Chris will send me everything he's got, and I'll create a separate TOC page for each back issue. OK, that's it. Thanks to the three of you who sent specific feedback. Another version of this should be ready by Monday, and I'll send it out and ask for another round of comments. If you're on a Macintosh, I'd especially like to hear how it looks. UPDATE: Well, it's Monday, and I did get some work done on the site over the weekend. We now have a domain name: http://www.irreantum.org All you'll see at that address is a "Coming Soon" page. The version of the main page I'm working on is here: http://www.irreantum.org/testing.html Please don't send that link to anyone who isn't directly involved with Irreantum or the AML board. Once the design is finalized and the site is ready, we'll move it to the main address and make an announcement on AML-List. Some notes about the current design: After I wrote the above reply on Friday, Scott Parkin responded to D. Michael's concerns with a much better explanation of the W3C standards and a much better justification for using CSS positioning than I ever could have. Thanks for the affirmation, Scott. The site is still very much a prototype, so I don't think the code will "validate" as being 100% correct right now, but once the design is done, I'll get the bugs out. Scott had several other suggestions: | * Too pastel. I had a hard time seeing the pale headline and link colors against | the shaded background. Then again, I'm mildly red/green color blind and that | sort of thing happens a lot for me. I know the background color is a little too pastelly (is that a word?), but I didn't want a plain white background, and the logical choice was blue (Irreantum = many waters, water = blue). I know that there are a lot of color variations between monitors, so everyone might be seeing a slightly different thing. But I did add some more color over the weekend (darker blue title font and a burgundy accent color) that will hopefully tone down the pastel look. | * Headlines and links looked too similar. The colors were similar enough that I | kept trying to click headlines (or at least hover over them and watch the colors | change). Consider using a darker color for the headlines. Good point. I redid the headline graphics throughout the site, and I'm still deciding if I will make those graphics direct links or not. Your input is welcome on this matter -- should the word "SUBSCRIBE," for instance, be a link to the subscription page, even though there's a short explanation below that graphic with a link to said page? | * Too many horizontal lines for my tastes. It seemed a little too boxy at times. I'm working on eliminating some of these, and I think the addition of the AML logo on the left side breaks up the page a bit. | * I would have liked a little more distinctiveness among the three sections. | Right now they all have nearly equal weight, so the center column content | doesn't stand out as the focus of the page. I think you could reduce the point | size on both of the sidebars and perhaps even narrow those margins just a tad to | make the center column a bit more distinct and powerful. Done. The center column is now 20 pixels larger, and the margins between columns are slightly wider. More than that, though, I think the larger title graphic at the top of the center column draws attention to the featured section. Enough rambling for now. I know I'm boring some of you to death, but I'm hoping at least a few people on the list are interested in shaping the look and feel of the site, which is why I'm going into so much detail about little things. If you're having a hard time viewing the site on your browser, or just want to make sure we're looking at the same thing, here's a picture of what you should be seeing: http://www.irreantum.org/screenshot.jpg I'll be working on coding the templates for the site over the next week or two. I hope we'll have something ready to unveil within two or three weeks. I'm happy to listen to all the input you're willing to give. Thanks, Quinn -- Irreantum Editor's Discussion List ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Travis K. Manning" Subject: Re: [irr-ed] Irreantum meeting Date: 30 Jun 2003 10:57:03 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C33EF6.570C32C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Irreantum meetingChris, Why don't we meet at your home for the Irreantum meetin'. Since you = don't have the barbecue, we could meet formally at 7 p.m. with desert = afterward (no dinner). I vote for banana splits!! I'll bring the = bananas! Chris, if you can bring icecream, since it would perhaps be = easier for you to transport such a meltable treat (many of us being on = the road and all), and each of us bring our favorite split topping....=20 I'll still compile the agenda and can shephard the meetin' (with ya'll's = assistance). Travis ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Christopher Bigelow=20 To: 'irreantum-ed@lists.xmission.com'=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 9:57 AM Subject: [irr-ed] Irreantum meeting Let's do have an Irreantum gathering. Sounds like Thursday, August 14, = or Friday the 15th would be best. Lunch, dinner, or later in the evening = is fine by me. Could we get a volunteer who wants to compile the agenda (ask people = what they want on it) and conduct the meeting? Not it. We could meet at my home in Provo (by the temple), or at a restaurant = anywhere in Salt Lake or Utah valleys, or consider other places. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C33EF6.570C32C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Irreantum meeting

Chris,

Why don't we meet at your home for the Irreantum=20 meetin'. Since you don't have the barbecue, we could meet formally = at 7=20 p.m. with desert afterward (no dinner). I vote for banana = splits!! =20 I'll bring the bananas! Chris, if you can bring icecream, since it = would=20 perhaps be easier for you to transport such a meltable treat (many of us = being=20 on the road and all), and each of us bring our favorite split = topping....=20

I'll still compile the agenda and can shephard the = meetin'=20 (with ya'll's assistance).

Travis

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Christopher = Bigelow

To: 'irreantum-ed@lists.xmi= ssion.com'=20

Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 = 9:57=20 AM

Subject: [irr-ed] Irreantum = meeting

Let's do have an Irreantum gathering. Sounds like = Thursday,=20 August 14, or Friday the 15th would be best. Lunch, dinner, or later = in the=20 evening is fine by me.

Could we get a volunteer who wants to compile the = agenda (ask=20 people what they want on it) and conduct the meeting? Not = it.

We could meet at my home in Provo (by the temple), = or at a=20 restaurant anywhere in Salt Lake or Utah valleys, or consider other=20 places.

------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C33EF6.570C32C0-- -- Irreantum Editor's Discussion List ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Travis K. Manning" Subject: Re: [irr-ed] Irreantum Design Date: 30 Jun 2003 11:29:46 -0700 Quinn, I like the notion of titling the site "Irreantum Online," and now that I understand your rationale for fading the "Online" I think it will work. "Irreantum Online" is short and clarifying. I can compile links taken from and send them to you this week. I really like where this brainstorm is taking us! A greater web presence will hopefully provide us with more readership, for example, those who are researching Mormonism may happen to stumble across our site. I know nothing about how webpages work, or how search engines will classify keywords from our site, but if there's some code you need to enter in this regard....(sorry, I'm clueless, but want to learn e-publishing). Also, consider making article titles and author names in the center column a few picas larger for better visibility. I like the titles and names bolded and in caps as you have them, just make them slightly larger for readability (if it screws up the format, I guess don't do it if it's not worth the hassle; or, if it doesn't fit your design vision). The first page of the site does not fit on my screen with my Internet Explorer browser (4.0?)--however, I have purposefully amped up the pixels so all text is slightly larger for my poor eyesight; I would assume most web users *don't* do this so I'm in the minority. As long as enough important info is in the top half of the site so a person can tell what the site is at quick glance without reading the bottom half of the site it should be fine. (My opinion is biased here as I largely already know the site's content, intent, and purpose.) Quinn, the last thing to consider: perhaps we ought to also have a few *non-AML staffers* peruse your webpage design, as first-time readers will also be stumbling onto the site without a clue as to what the site is. Fresh eyes--office mates, friends, family even--could also provide valuable feedback on the site's functionality and design presentation. Travis ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 10:50 AM > [I wrote this email on Friday, but I made the mistake of attaching a > screenshot of the website, and I don't think the server let it go through to > the list. My apologies if you've already received this. With additions added > below, it's quite long. Sorry about that.] > > This is the email where you all start to hate me for being a pretentious > designer. But here goes nothing... > > Marny wrote: > > | A couple of twitchy things: Bring the text of the left > | margin by a half-dozen pixels or so. > > I'm not sure what you're asking for here. Bring the text of the left margin > WHERE by a half-dozen pixels? The site design is three columns, which are > all contained in an invisible frame, which is centered on the screen. This > format works best on multiple variations of screen-size. The distance from > the left edge of your screen to where the text begins depends entirely on > your screen resolution. If you have a high screen resolution, you'll see a > lot of white space (actually, very light blue space, but we'll get to that > later). If your resolution is lower, the design will fill the entire screen. > If any of you have to scroll horizontally to see the whole front page, > please let me know. If that's the case, I may have to resize the overall > dimensions. > > Marny again: > > | And you can copy the AML logo of > | the web site to put in the upper right corner (or somewhere else, but > | I think we ought to have a stronger obvious tie to the main AML web > | site). > > I agree -- I was waiting to get the original logo file to incorporate it > into the look of the site, and it is now on its way, so the next beta > version of the site will have a logo and a stronger visual tie to the AML. > > D. Michael wrote: > > |

> | > | Is this an MS Internet Explorer construct? It doesn't work with my > | Netscape. The columns are all superimposed on each other. > > Ugh. I had a feeling we'd run into this. The site is designed using xhtml > and CSS (cascading style sheets) positioning, rather than tables, which is > what sites have been designed in since 1993 or so. In my opinion, CSS design > is superior for a list of reasons too long to enumerate here, but I > acknowledge the fact that about 2% of browsers aren't "standards compliant." > The biggest offender is Netscape Navigator version 4 and lower. D. Mike, if > you could let me know what browser you're using, it will let me know if I'm > coding wrong or if you're using a browser that just won't read the site. I > haven't done this part yet, but ultimately, the site will know if you're > using an outdated browser and automatically strip all formatting out, > leaving only the raw text. There will be a short notice on the site letting > the visitors know that they're only getting the plain vanilla version, and > if they want to upgrade their browser, they'll be able to enjoy the design > of the site. The notice will contain a link to where they can go to find > directions about upgrading (for free) to a standards-compliant browser. > > I know, I know, this is where people get angry that websites aren't serving > everyone equally, and designers get labeled elitist and exclusionary. I'm > not a designer by trade (only by hobby), so I understand those sentiments. > But the reason I design my sites using CSS is because it helps them be MORE > accessible -- for blind people who use braille browsers, for people who surf > the web on their PDAs, etc... I hope this makes some sense. > > Travis wrote: > > | The Masthead is a wee naked. The "Online" in white is hard to read, > unless > | it had a lightly-colored background, e.g. > > The masthead will incorporate the AML logo as soon as I can redesign it. As > for the "Online" being white on a light-blue background, that's intentional. > I don't want the site to be different from the printed publication, but > there needs to be a slight demarcation. Hence the dark "Irreantum" and the > light "Online." Elsewhere on the site, we will just refer to it as > "Irreantum" or "the online companion to Irreantum" or "Irreantum's online > presence" or something like that. The Atlantic Monthly has created an > enormous site that has a ton of online-only material, and they've called > their site "Atlantic Unbound," which I really like. They've branded the > name, and made it distinct from, yet still connected to the printed > magazine. I don't think we'll have enough original material online to really > brand "Irreantum Online," so the question becomes whether we leave the > subtle "Online" there in the logo, or just take it out altogether. > > Travis again: > > | We need a link to the Mormon Lit > | database: and perhaps a few links to > | , that is links to our already established book reviews, > | other Mormon magazines and research connections, and to the Table of > | Contents page that includes the contents of past issues. As we put this > | together, we ought to consider putting more links to examples of texts > from > | past issues. > > I hope you'll all email me with links like this, and I'll create a sidebar > panel with lots of links to consistently good sites. As for the tables of > contents, my other email addressed that a bit, but I hope Chris will send me > everything he's got, and I'll create a separate TOC page for each back > issue. > > OK, that's it. Thanks to the three of you who sent specific feedback. > Another version of this should be ready by Monday, and I'll send it out and > ask for another round of comments. If you're on a Macintosh, I'd especially > like to hear how it looks. > > UPDATE: > > Well, it's Monday, and I did get some work done on the site over the > weekend. We now have a domain name: > > http://www.irreantum.org > > All you'll see at that address is a "Coming Soon" page. The version of the > main page I'm working on is here: > > http://www.irreantum.org/testing.html > > Please don't send that link to anyone who isn't directly involved with > Irreantum or the AML board. Once the design is finalized and the site is > ready, we'll move it to the main address and make an announcement on > AML-List. > > Some notes about the current design: > > After I wrote the above reply on Friday, Scott Parkin responded to D. > Michael's concerns with a much better explanation of the W3C standards and a > much better justification for using CSS positioning than I ever could have. > Thanks for the affirmation, Scott. The site is still very much a prototype, > so I don't think the code will "validate" as being 100% correct right now, > but once the design is done, I'll get the bugs out. > > Scott had several other suggestions: > > | * Too pastel. I had a hard time seeing the pale headline and link colors > against > | the shaded background. Then again, I'm mildly red/green color blind and > that > | sort of thing happens a lot for me. > > I know the background color is a little too pastelly (is that a word?), but > I didn't want a plain white background, and the logical choice was blue > (Irreantum = many waters, water = blue). I know that there are a lot of > color variations between monitors, so everyone might be seeing a slightly > different thing. But I did add some more color over the weekend (darker blue > title font and a burgundy accent color) that will hopefully tone down the > pastel look. > > | * Headlines and links looked too similar. The colors were similar enough > that I > | kept trying to click headlines (or at least hover over them and watch the > colors > | change). Consider using a darker color for the headlines. > > Good point. I redid the headline graphics throughout the site, and I'm still > deciding if I will make those graphics direct links or not. Your input is > welcome on this matter -- should the word "SUBSCRIBE," for instance, be a > link to the subscription page, even though there's a short explanation below > that graphic with a link to said page? > > | * Too many horizontal lines for my tastes. It seemed a little too boxy at > times. > > I'm working on eliminating some of these, and I think the addition of the > AML logo on the left side breaks up the page a bit. > > | * I would have liked a little more distinctiveness among the three > sections. > | Right now they all have nearly equal weight, so the center column content > | doesn't stand out as the focus of the page. I think you could reduce the > point > | size on both of the sidebars and perhaps even narrow those margins just a > tad to > | make the center column a bit more distinct and powerful. > > Done. The center column is now 20 pixels larger, and the margins between > columns are slightly wider. More than that, though, I think the larger title > graphic at the top of the center column draws attention to the featured > section. > > Enough rambling for now. I know I'm boring some of you to death, but I'm > hoping at least a few people on the list are interested in shaping the look > and feel of the site, which is why I'm going into so much detail about > little things. If you're having a hard time viewing the site on your > browser, or just want to make sure we're looking at the same thing, here's a > picture of what you should be seeing: > > http://www.irreantum.org/screenshot.jpg > > I'll be working on coding the templates for the site over the next week or > two. I hope we'll have something ready to unveil within two or three weeks. > I'm happy to listen to all the input you're willing to give. > > Thanks, > > Quinn > > > > -- > Irreantum Editor's Discussion List > -- Irreantum Editor's Discussion List ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [irr-ed] Irreantum Design Date: 30 Jun 2003 13:43:14 -0600 >Marny wrote: > >| A couple of twitchy things: Bring the text of the left >| margin by a half-dozen pixels or so. Oops. I meant *off* the left margin. Apparently my window size was just small enough to make the left column mash against the left edge of the window. I'd like you to add some padding to the style of the left column so no matter what the window size, there is some white space on the left edge. I like what you've done with the "Irreantum Online" title. I think the all caps are fine for the short titles, but when the titles get longer, like the title of Melody's essay, they are much harder to read. I suggest leaving "interview" or "essay" in caps, but using initial caps for the rest of the title. If you want more visual difference between the headline and the body copy, try using a serifed font instead of all caps. And they could be a bit larger. Yes, make the titles like "subscribe" links. I'm not sure what type of links to outside sites we need--how redundant do we want to be to the AML site? I think doing a calendar that is better/more consistently updated would be good, since we publish news of the AML and a calendar fits in with that goal. Links to the Mormon Lit db certainly fit with our purpose, but do we want those links on the main page or on a secondary page? I still am unsure what we want to have in that right column. I think the rest looks very good. Thanks for doing the work. Chris, if you want to send me the Quark files I can do any exporting of text that we need so you don't have to worry about it. Marny -- Irreantum Editor's Discussion List ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Travis K. Manning" Subject: Re: [irr-ed] Irreantum Design Date: 30 Jun 2003 12:48:20 -0700 Quinn, I have perused several online literary mags for ideas regarding Irreantum Online. Check out the following few: African American Review: http://aar.slu.edu/ I like their "Announcements" section with its Special Events, Call for Papers, and Other Announcements headings. We could cross-advertise AML events, along with calls for papers for various conferences with an interest in Mormon lit. We could also include an info button to Advertise (with Irreantum Online). [I look forward to utilizing an email address with Irreantum in it.] American Poetry Review: http://www.aprweb.org/ I like the idea of having a button for History, Irreantum (and Irreantum Online) history. We could have a button connecting readership to Contests! (What, the annual fiction contest, and the Marilyn Brown novel award; e.g.). We could have buttons for Links and News, connections to Mormon lit. and news links that is. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 10:50 AM > [I wrote this email on Friday, but I made the mistake of attaching a > screenshot of the website, and I don't think the server let it go through to > the list. My apologies if you've already received this. With additions added > below, it's quite long. Sorry about that.] > > This is the email where you all start to hate me for being a pretentious > designer. But here goes nothing... > > Marny wrote: > > | A couple of twitchy things: Bring the text of the left > | margin by a half-dozen pixels or so. > > I'm not sure what you're asking for here. Bring the text of the left margin > WHERE by a half-dozen pixels? The site design is three columns, which are > all contained in an invisible frame, which is centered on the screen. This > format works best on multiple variations of screen-size. The distance from > the left edge of your screen to where the text begins depends entirely on > your screen resolution. If you have a high screen resolution, you'll see a > lot of white space (actually, very light blue space, but we'll get to that > later). If your resolution is lower, the design will fill the entire screen. > If any of you have to scroll horizontally to see the whole front page, > please let me know. If that's the case, I may have to resize the overall > dimensions. > > Marny again: > > | And you can copy the AML logo of > | the web site to put in the upper right corner (or somewhere else, but > | I think we ought to have a stronger obvious tie to the main AML web > | site). > > I agree -- I was waiting to get the original logo file to incorporate it > into the look of the site, and it is now on its way, so the next beta > version of the site will have a logo and a stronger visual tie to the AML. > > D. Michael wrote: > > |

> | > | Is this an MS Internet Explorer construct? It doesn't work with my > | Netscape. The columns are all superimposed on each other. > > Ugh. I had a feeling we'd run into this. The site is designed using xhtml > and CSS (cascading style sheets) positioning, rather than tables, which is > what sites have been designed in since 1993 or so. In my opinion, CSS design > is superior for a list of reasons too long to enumerate here, but I > acknowledge the fact that about 2% of browsers aren't "standards compliant." > The biggest offender is Netscape Navigator version 4 and lower. D. Mike, if > you could let me know what browser you're using, it will let me know if I'm > coding wrong or if you're using a browser that just won't read the site. I > haven't done this part yet, but ultimately, the site will know if you're > using an outdated browser and automatically strip all formatting out, > leaving only the raw text. There will be a short notice on the site letting > the visitors know that they're only getting the plain vanilla version, and > if they want to upgrade their browser, they'll be able to enjoy the design > of the site. The notice will contain a link to where they can go to find > directions about upgrading (for free) to a standards-compliant browser. > > I know, I know, this is where people get angry that websites aren't serving > everyone equally, and designers get labeled elitist and exclusionary. I'm > not a designer by trade (only by hobby), so I understand those sentiments. > But the reason I design my sites using CSS is because it helps them be MORE > accessible -- for blind people who use braille browsers, for people who surf > the web on their PDAs, etc... I hope this makes some sense. > > Travis wrote: > > | The Masthead is a wee naked. The "Online" in white is hard to read, > unless > | it had a lightly-colored background, e.g. > > The masthead will incorporate the AML logo as soon as I can redesign it. As > for the "Online" being white on a light-blue background, that's intentional. > I don't want the site to be different from the printed publication, but > there needs to be a slight demarcation. Hence the dark "Irreantum" and the > light "Online." Elsewhere on the site, we will just refer to it as > "Irreantum" or "the online companion to Irreantum" or "Irreantum's online > presence" or something like that. The Atlantic Monthly has created an > enormous site that has a ton of online-only material, and they've called > their site "Atlantic Unbound," which I really like. They've branded the > name, and made it distinct from, yet still connected to the printed > magazine. I don't think we'll have enough original material online to really > brand "Irreantum Online," so the question becomes whether we leave the > subtle "Online" there in the logo, or just take it out altogether. > > Travis again: > > | We need a link to the Mormon Lit > | database: and perhaps a few links to > | , that is links to our already established book reviews, > | other Mormon magazines and research connections, and to the Table of > | Contents page that includes the contents of past issues. As we put this > | together, we ought to consider putting more links to examples of texts > from > | past issues. > > I hope you'll all email me with links like this, and I'll create a sidebar > panel with lots of links to consistently good sites. As for the tables of > contents, my other email addressed that a bit, but I hope Chris will send me > everything he's got, and I'll create a separate TOC page for each back > issue. > > OK, that's it. Thanks to the three of you who sent specific feedback. > Another version of this should be ready by Monday, and I'll send it out and > ask for another round of comments. If you're on a Macintosh, I'd especially > like to hear how it looks. > > UPDATE: > > Well, it's Monday, and I did get some work done on the site over the > weekend. We now have a domain name: > > http://www.irreantum.org > > All you'll see at that address is a "Coming Soon" page. The version of the > main page I'm working on is here: > > http://www.irreantum.org/testing.html > > Please don't send that link to anyone who isn't directly involved with > Irreantum or the AML board. Once the design is finalized and the site is > ready, we'll move it to the main address and make an announcement on > AML-List. > > Some notes about the current design: > > After I wrote the above reply on Friday, Scott Parkin responded to D. > Michael's concerns with a much better explanation of the W3C standards and a > much better justification for using CSS positioning than I ever could have. > Thanks for the affirmation, Scott. The site is still very much a prototype, > so I don't think the code will "validate" as being 100% correct right now, > but once the design is done, I'll get the bugs out. > > Scott had several other suggestions: > > | * Too pastel. I had a hard time seeing the pale headline and link colors > against > | the shaded background. Then again, I'm mildly red/green color blind and > that > | sort of thing happens a lot for me. > > I know the background color is a little too pastelly (is that a word?), but > I didn't want a plain white background, and the logical choice was blue > (Irreantum = many waters, water = blue). I know that there are a lot of > color variations between monitors, so everyone might be seeing a slightly > different thing. But I did add some more color over the weekend (darker blue > title font and a burgundy accent color) that will hopefully tone down the > pastel look. > > | * Headlines and links looked too similar. The colors were similar enough > that I > | kept trying to click headlines (or at least hover over them and watch the > colors > | change). Consider using a darker color for the headlines. > > Good point. I redid the headline graphics throughout the site, and I'm still > deciding if I will make those graphics direct links or not. Your input is > welcome on this matter -- should the word "SUBSCRIBE," for instance, be a > link to the subscription page, even though there's a short explanation below > that graphic with a link to said page? > > | * Too many horizontal lines for my tastes. It seemed a little too boxy at > times. > > I'm working on eliminating some of these, and I think the addition of the > AML logo on the left side breaks up the page a bit. > > | * I would have liked a little more distinctiveness among the three > sections. > | Right now they all have nearly equal weight, so the center column content > | doesn't stand out as the focus of the page. I think you could reduce the > point > | size on both of the sidebars and perhaps even narrow those margins just a > tad to > | make the center column a bit more distinct and powerful. > > Done. The center column is now 20 pixels larger, and the margins between > columns are slightly wider. More than that, though, I think the larger title > graphic at the top of the center column draws attention to the featured > section. > > Enough rambling for now. I know I'm boring some of you to death, but I'm > hoping at least a few people on the list are interested in shaping the look > and feel of the site, which is why I'm going into so much detail about > little things. If you're having a hard time viewing the site on your > browser, or just want to make sure we're looking at the same thing, here's a > picture of what you should be seeing: > > http://www.irreantum.org/screenshot.jpg > > I'll be working on coding the templates for the site over the next week or > two. I hope we'll have something ready to unveil within two or three weeks. > I'm happy to listen to all the input you're willing to give. > > Thanks, > > Quinn > > > > -- > Irreantum Editor's Discussion List > -- Irreantum Editor's Discussion List ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: RE: [irr-ed] Irreantum Design Date: 30 Jun 2003 13:46:48 -0600 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33F40.584E7720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I already sent all the Quark files of past Irreantum issues to Quinn. Marny (or anyone else), let me know if you still want those too. -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 1:43 PM >Marny wrote: > >| A couple of twitchy things: Bring the text of the left >| margin by a half-dozen pixels or so. Oops. I meant *off* the left margin. Apparently my window size was just small enough to make the left column mash against the left edge of the window. I'd like you to add some padding to the style of the left column so no matter what the window size, there is some white space on the left edge. I like what you've done with the "Irreantum Online" title. I think the all caps are fine for the short titles, but when the titles get longer, like the title of Melody's essay, they are much harder to read. I suggest leaving "interview" or "essay" in caps, but using initial caps for the rest of the title. If you want more visual difference between the headline and the body copy, try using a serifed font instead of all caps. And they could be a bit larger. Yes, make the titles like "subscribe" links. I'm not sure what type of links to outside sites we need--how redundant do we want to be to the AML site? I think doing a calendar that is better/more consistently updated would be good, since we publish news of the AML and a calendar fits in with that goal. Links to the Mormon Lit db certainly fit with our purpose, but do we want those links on the main page or on a secondary page? I still am unsure what we want to have in that right column. I think the rest looks very good. Thanks for doing the work. Chris, if you want to send me the Quark files I can do any exporting of text that we need so you don't have to worry about it. Marny -- Irreantum Editor's Discussion List ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33F40.584E7720 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [irr-ed] Irreantum Design

I already sent all the Quark files of past Irreantum = issues to Quinn. Marny (or anyone else), let me know if you still want = those too.

-----Original Message-----
From: Marny Parkin [mailto:marnyparkin@pxi.net]
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 1:43 PM
To: irreantum-ed@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: [irr-ed] Irreantum Design

>Marny wrote:
>
>| A couple of twitchy things: Bring the text of = the left
>| margin by a half-dozen pixels or so.

Oops. I meant *off* the left margin. Apparently my = window size was
just small enough to make the left column mash = against the left edge
of the window. I'd like you to add some padding to = the style of the
left column so no matter what the window size, there = is some white
space on the left edge.

I like what you've done with the "Irreantum = Online" title. I think
the all caps are fine for the short titles, but when = the titles get
longer, like the title of Melody's essay, they are = much harder to
read. I suggest leaving "interview" or = "essay" in caps, but using
initial caps for the rest of the title. If you want = more visual
difference between the headline and the body copy, = try using a
serifed font instead of all caps. And they could be = a bit larger.

Yes, make the titles like "subscribe" = links.

I'm not sure what type of links to outside sites we = need--how
redundant do we want to be to the AML site? I think = doing a calendar
that is better/more consistently updated would be = good, since we
publish news of the AML and a calendar fits in with = that goal. Links
to the Mormon Lit db certainly fit with our purpose, = but do we want
those links on the main page or on a secondary page? = I still am
unsure what we want to have in that right = column.

I think the rest looks very good. Thanks for doing = the work.

Chris, if you want to send me the Quark files I can = do any exporting
of text that we need so you don't have to worry = about it.

Marny

--
Irreantum Editor's Discussion List = <irreantum-ed@lists.xmission.com>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C33F40.584E7720-- -- Irreantum Editor's Discussion List ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Travis K. Manning" Subject: Re: [irr-ed] Irreantum Design Date: 30 Jun 2003 13:28:00 -0700 I accidentally sent my response regarding other online literary mags prematurely. Here goes a few more annotations: Contemporary Poetry Review: http://www.cprw.com/ Has a monthly Letters to the Editor function. A sidenote: Irreantum could offer FREE online advertising for paper version subscribers! Perhaps that would entice a reluctant few advertisers from the confines of their cubicle. If the "free" advertising catches on, maybe we keep it (maybe we don't want ads for the site). Perhaps a Search function for the site would be helpful. Image: http://www.imagejournal.org/ We could feature an artist a month. If we divided up the duties, perhaps we'd only have one Mormon literary artist to interview a year, each. Consider including a SiteMap. The New Yorker: http://newyorker.com/ A well organized site, including a section called "Online Only." The Paris Review: http://www.parisreview.com/ I like how they have tightly cropped photos of authors, newspaper style (though more artistically captured). There is also a button for the Paris Review email list, their Foundation, and books they've published (we could advertise for past issues of Irreantum, or post that list of Mormon authors currently on Amazon.com, you know, the list recently on the AML list?). When it comes to offering FREE PDFs of Irreantum, I'm wondering if we shouldn't just do one PDF for now, to give potential readers/subscribers: publishers, librarians, bookstore owners, readers and writers. Getting permission for everyone who has ever written for Irreantum will perhaps be a pain in our kiester. For the future, we could perhaps have authors automatically fill out and submit an electronic (or paper) copyright form, which includes online publishing in Irreantum Online. But what happens if one author of an entire issue of Irreantum refuses to submit, or we cannot receive permission from said author to e-publish? I guess we keep "the text" in the Table of Contents but delete their creative contribution, and then we can give away that free PDF minus "that one author." We can also have a FAQs section. We could also offer cheaper subscriptions to Irreantum Online to teachers, librarians, or students (perhaps drastically cheaper for students). Just a few more thoughts. Travis ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 12:48 PM > Quinn, > > I have perused several online literary mags for ideas regarding Irreantum > Online. Check out the following few: > > African American Review: http://aar.slu.edu/ > I like their "Announcements" section with its Special Events, Call for > Papers, and Other Announcements headings. We could cross-advertise AML > events, along with calls for papers for various conferences with an interest > in Mormon lit. We could also include an info button to Advertise (with > Irreantum Online). [I look forward to utilizing an email address with > Irreantum in it.] > > American Poetry Review: http://www.aprweb.org/ > I like the idea of having a button for History, Irreantum (and Irreantum > Online) history. We could have a button connecting readership to Contests! > (What, the annual fiction contest, and the Marilyn Brown novel award; e.g.). > We could have buttons for Links and News, connections to Mormon lit. and > news links that is. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Quinn Warnick" > To: > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 10:50 AM > Subject: Re: [irr-ed] Irreantum Design > > > > [I wrote this email on Friday, but I made the mistake of attaching a > > screenshot of the website, and I don't think the server let it go through > to > > the list. My apologies if you've already received this. With additions > added > > below, it's quite long. Sorry about that.] > > > > This is the email where you all start to hate me for being a pretentious > > designer. But here goes nothing... > > > > Marny wrote: > > > > | A couple of twitchy things: Bring the text of the left > > | margin by a half-dozen pixels or so. > > > > I'm not sure what you're asking for here. Bring the text of the left > margin > > WHERE by a half-dozen pixels? The site design is three columns, which are > > all contained in an invisible frame, which is centered on the screen. This > > format works best on multiple variations of screen-size. The distance from > > the left edge of your screen to where the text begins depends entirely on > > your screen resolution. If you have a high screen resolution, you'll see a > > lot of white space (actually, very light blue space, but we'll get to that > > later). If your resolution is lower, the design will fill the entire > screen. > > If any of you have to scroll horizontally to see the whole front page, > > please let me know. If that's the case, I may have to resize the overall > > dimensions. > > > > Marny again: > > > > | And you can copy the AML logo of > > | the web site to put in the upper right corner (or somewhere else, but > > | I think we ought to have a stronger obvious tie to the main AML web > > | site). > > > > I agree -- I was waiting to get the original logo file to incorporate it > > into the look of the site, and it is now on its way, so the next beta > > version of the site will have a logo and a stronger visual tie to the AML. > > > > D. Michael wrote: > > > > |

> > | > > | Is this an MS Internet Explorer construct? It doesn't work with my > > | Netscape. The columns are all superimposed on each other. > > > > Ugh. I had a feeling we'd run into this. The site is designed using xhtml > > and CSS (cascading style sheets) positioning, rather than tables, which is > > what sites have been designed in since 1993 or so. In my opinion, CSS > design > > is superior for a list of reasons too long to enumerate here, but I > > acknowledge the fact that about 2% of browsers aren't "standards > compliant." > > The biggest offender is Netscape Navigator version 4 and lower. D. Mike, > if > > you could let me know what browser you're using, it will let me know if > I'm > > coding wrong or if you're using a browser that just won't read the site. I > > haven't done this part yet, but ultimately, the site will know if you're > > using an outdated browser and automatically strip all formatting out, > > leaving only the raw text. There will be a short notice on the site > letting > > the visitors know that they're only getting the plain vanilla version, and > > if they want to upgrade their browser, they'll be able to enjoy the design > > of the site. The notice will contain a link to where they can go to find > > directions about upgrading (for free) to a standards-compliant browser. > > > > I know, I know, this is where people get angry that websites aren't > serving > > everyone equally, and designers get labeled elitist and exclusionary. I'm > > not a designer by trade (only by hobby), so I understand those sentiments. > > But the reason I design my sites using CSS is because it helps them be > MORE > > accessible -- for blind people who use braille browsers, for people who > surf > > the web on their PDAs, etc... I hope this makes some sense. > > > > Travis wrote: > > > > | The Masthead is a wee naked. The "Online" in white is hard to read, > > unless > > | it had a lightly-colored background, e.g. > > > > The masthead will incorporate the AML logo as soon as I can redesign it. > As > > for the "Online" being white on a light-blue background, that's > intentional. > > I don't want the site to be different from the printed publication, but > > there needs to be a slight demarcation. Hence the dark "Irreantum" and the > > light "Online." Elsewhere on the site, we will just refer to it as > > "Irreantum" or "the online companion to Irreantum" or "Irreantum's online > > presence" or something like that. The Atlantic Monthly has created an > > enormous site that has a ton of online-only material, and they've called > > their site "Atlantic Unbound," which I really like. They've branded the > > name, and made it distinct from, yet still connected to the printed > > magazine. I don't think we'll have enough original material online to > really > > brand "Irreantum Online," so the question becomes whether we leave the > > subtle "Online" there in the logo, or just take it out altogether. > > > > Travis again: > > > > | We need a link to the Mormon Lit > > | database: and perhaps a few links to > > | , that is links to our already established book reviews, > > | other Mormon magazines and research connections, and to the Table of > > | Contents page that includes the contents of past issues. As we put this > > | together, we ought to consider putting more links to examples of texts > > from > > | past issues. > > > > I hope you'll all email me with links like this, and I'll create a sidebar > > panel with lots of links to consistently good sites. As for the tables of > > contents, my other email addressed that a bit, but I hope Chris will send > me > > everything he's got, and I'll create a separate TOC page for each back > > issue. > > > > OK, that's it. Thanks to the three of you who sent specific feedback. > > Another version of this should be ready by Monday, and I'll send it out > and > > ask for another round of comments. If you're on a Macintosh, I'd > especially > > like to hear how it looks. > > > > UPDATE: > > > > Well, it's Monday, and I did get some work done on the site over the > > weekend. We now have a domain name: > > > > http://www.irreantum.org > > > > All you'll see at that address is a "Coming Soon" page. The version of the > > main page I'm working on is here: > > > > http://www.irreantum.org/testing.html > > > > Please don't send that link to anyone who isn't directly involved with > > Irreantum or the AML board. Once the design is finalized and the site is > > ready, we'll move it to the main address and make an announcement on > > AML-List. > > > > Some notes about the current design: > > > > After I wrote the above reply on Friday, Scott Parkin responded to D. > > Michael's concerns with a much better explanation of the W3C standards and > a > > much better justification for using CSS positioning than I ever could > have. > > Thanks for the affirmation, Scott. The site is still very much a > prototype, > > so I don't think the code will "validate" as being 100% correct right now, > > but once the design is done, I'll get the bugs out. > > > > Scott had several other suggestions: > > > > | * Too pastel. I had a hard time seeing the pale headline and link colors > > against > > | the shaded background. Then again, I'm mildly red/green color blind and > > that > > | sort of thing happens a lot for me. > > > > I know the background color is a little too pastelly (is that a word?), > but > > I didn't want a plain white background, and the logical choice was blue > > (Irreantum = many waters, water = blue). I know that there are a lot of > > color variations between monitors, so everyone might be seeing a slightly > > different thing. But I did add some more color over the weekend (darker > blue > > title font and a burgundy accent color) that will hopefully tone down the > > pastel look. > > > > | * Headlines and links looked too similar. The colors were similar enough > > that I > > | kept trying to click headlines (or at least hover over them and watch > the > > colors > > | change). Consider using a darker color for the headlines. > > > > Good point. I redid the headline graphics throughout the site, and I'm > still > > deciding if I will make those graphics direct links or not. Your input is > > welcome on this matter -- should the word "SUBSCRIBE," for instance, be a > > link to the subscription page, even though there's a short explanation > below > > that graphic with a link to said page? > > > > | * Too many horizontal lines for my tastes. It seemed a little too boxy > at > > times. > > > > I'm working on eliminating some of these, and I think the addition of the > > AML logo on the left side breaks up the page a bit. > > > > | * I would have liked a little more distinctiveness among the three > > sections. > > | Right now they all have nearly equal weight, so the center column > content > > | doesn't stand out as the focus of the page. I think you could reduce the > > point > > | size on both of the sidebars and perhaps even narrow those margins just > a > > tad to > > | make the center column a bit more distinct and powerful. > > > > Done. The center column is now 20 pixels larger, and the margins between > > columns are slightly wider. More than that, though, I think the larger > title > > graphic at the top of the center column draws attention to the featured > > section. > > > > Enough rambling for now. I know I'm boring some of you to death, but I'm > > hoping at least a few people on the list are interested in shaping the > look > > and feel of the site, which is why I'm going into so much detail about > > little things. If you're having a hard time viewing the site on your > > browser, or just want to make sure we're looking at the same thing, here's > a > > picture of what you should be seeing: > > > > http://www.irreantum.org/screenshot.jpg > > > > I'll be working on coding the templates for the site over the next week or > > two. I hope we'll have something ready to unveil within two or three > weeks. > > I'm happy to listen to all the input you're willing to give. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Quinn > > > > > > > > -- > > Irreantum Editor's Discussion List > > > > > > -- > Irreantum Editor's Discussion List > -- Irreantum Editor's Discussion List ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [irr-ed] Irreantum Design Date: 30 Jun 2003 15:07:09 -0600 Quinn Warnick wrote: > D. Michael wrote: > Ugh. I had a feeling we'd run into this. The site is designed using xhtml > and CSS (cascading style sheets) positioning, rather than tables, which is > what sites have been designed in since 1993 or so. In my opinion, CSS design > is superior for a list of reasons too long to enumerate here, but I > acknowledge the fact that about 2% of browsers aren't "standards compliant." > The biggest offender is Netscape Navigator version 4 and lower. D. Mike, if > you could let me know what browser you're using, it will let me know if I'm > coding wrong or if you're using a browser that just won't read the site. I'm using an "evil" browser--Netscape 4. I don't feel like going through the rigmarole of updating. It works fine until someone like you comes along and decides they just _need_ to be modern. If that's more important to the web creators than communicating with me, then I just brush them off and surf on. As far as I'm concerned, if it can't be done with tables, it's not necessary. But then I'm not one of these superficial web browsers who needs flash. I just need content. That's how I feel. You can decide for yourself if my obstinate attitude is one you want to take into account in your design. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== -- Irreantum Editor's Discussion List ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [irr-ed] Irreantum Design Date: 30 Jun 2003 17:02:35 -0600 >When it comes to offering FREE PDFs of Irreantum, I'm wondering if we >shouldn't just do one PDF for now, to give potential readers/subscribers: >publishers, librarians, bookstore owners, readers and writers. Getting >permission for everyone who has ever written for Irreantum will perhaps be a >pain in our kiester. For the future, we could perhaps have authors >automatically fill out and submit an electronic (or paper) copyright form, >which includes online publishing in Irreantum Online. But what happens if >one author of an entire issue of Irreantum refuses to submit, or we cannot >receive permission from said author to e-publish? I guess we keep "the >text" in the Table of Contents but delete their creative contribution, and >then we can give away that free PDF minus "that one author." We can also >have a FAQs section. We could also offer cheaper subscriptions to Irreantum >Online to teachers, librarians, or students (perhaps drastically cheaper for >students). We have the right to distribute (print or pdf or otherwise) the ENTIRE issue of Irreantum. We only have to ask permission of individual authors to distribute individual pieces (print or on the web or pdf or whatever). However, it would be nice to let previous authors know what we are doing. It could be done as a single email sent to all of them. We can ask permission to post individual pieces in the same letter, asking for a specific yes or no response. Often, magazines charge a higher rate for sample copies, but in our case a free sample may be a good idea. Marny -- Irreantum Editor's Discussion List ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: RE: [irr-ed] Irreantum Design Date: 30 Jun 2003 16:46:48 -0600 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33F59.7D306A30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" So we could put up any issue's PDF as long as it's complete. Cool! My approach on sample printed copies is to usually charge higher (to account for extra postage costs) but occasionally run a free sample promo. -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 5:03 PM >When it comes to offering FREE PDFs of Irreantum, I'm wondering if we >shouldn't just do one PDF for now, to give potential readers/subscribers: >publishers, librarians, bookstore owners, readers and writers. Getting >permission for everyone who has ever written for Irreantum will perhaps be a >pain in our kiester. For the future, we could perhaps have authors >automatically fill out and submit an electronic (or paper) copyright form, >which includes online publishing in Irreantum Online. But what happens if >one author of an entire issue of Irreantum refuses to submit, or we cannot >receive permission from said author to e-publish? I guess we keep "the >text" in the Table of Contents but delete their creative contribution, and >then we can give away that free PDF minus "that one author." We can also >have a FAQs section. We could also offer cheaper subscriptions to Irreantum >Online to teachers, librarians, or students (perhaps drastically cheaper for >students). We have the right to distribute (print or pdf or otherwise) the ENTIRE issue of Irreantum. We only have to ask permission of individual authors to distribute individual pieces (print or on the web or pdf or whatever). However, it would be nice to let previous authors know what we are doing. It could be done as a single email sent to all of them. We can ask permission to post individual pieces in the same letter, asking for a specific yes or no response. Often, magazines charge a higher rate for sample copies, but in our case a free sample may be a good idea. Marny -- Irreantum Editor's Discussion List ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33F59.7D306A30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [irr-ed] Irreantum Design

So we could put up any issue's PDF as long as it's = complete. Cool!

My approach on sample printed copies is to usually = charge higher (to account for extra postage costs) but occasionally run = a free sample promo.

-----Original Message-----
From: Marny Parkin [mailto:marnyparkin@pxi.net]
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 5:03 PM
To: irreantum-ed@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: [irr-ed] Irreantum Design

>When it comes to offering FREE PDFs of Irreantum, = I'm wondering if we
>shouldn't just do one PDF for now, to give = potential readers/subscribers:
>publishers, librarians, bookstore owners, = readers and writers. Getting
>permission for everyone who has ever written for = Irreantum will perhaps be a
>pain in our kiester. For the future, we = could perhaps have authors
>automatically fill out and submit an electronic = (or paper) copyright form,
>which includes online publishing in Irreantum = Online. But what happens if
>one author of an entire issue of Irreantum = refuses to submit, or we cannot
>receive permission from said author to = e-publish? I guess we keep "the
>text" in the Table of Contents but delete = their creative contribution, and
>then we can give away that free PDF minus = "that one author." We can also
>have a FAQs section. We could also offer = cheaper subscriptions to Irreantum
>Online to teachers, librarians, or students = (perhaps drastically cheaper for
>students).

We have the right to distribute (print or pdf or = otherwise) the
ENTIRE issue of Irreantum. We only have to ask = permission of
individual authors to distribute individual pieces = (print or on the
web or pdf or whatever). However, it would be nice = to let previous
authors know what we are doing. It could be done as = a single email
sent to all of them. We can ask permission to post = individual pieces
in the same letter, asking for a specific yes or no = response.

Often, magazines charge a higher rate for sample = copies, but in our
case a free sample may be a good idea.

Marny

--
Irreantum Editor's Discussion List = <irreantum-ed@lists.xmission.com>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C33F59.7D306A30-- -- Irreantum Editor's Discussion List ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: RE: [irr-ed] Irreantum meeting Date: 30 Jun 2003 18:45:20 -0600 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33F6A.0C66E8E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" That would be fine to have an ice cream social/meeting at my house. I'm a little uncertain of whether to book it for Thursday nite, August 14, or Friday nite, August 15. I guess I don't know if Sunstone has something great going on one of those evenings or what. Does anyone have a preference between those two nights at this point? Let's revisit this more as we get closer. -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 11:57 AM Chris, Why don't we meet at your home for the Irreantum meetin'. Since you don't have the barbecue, we could meet formally at 7 p.m. with desert afterward (no dinner). I vote for banana splits!! I'll bring the bananas! Chris, if you can bring icecream, since it would perhaps be easier for you to transport such a meltable treat (many of us being on the road and all), and each of us bring our favorite split topping.... I'll still compile the agenda and can shephard the meetin' (with ya'll's assistance). Travis ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 9:57 AM Let's do have an Irreantum gathering. Sounds like Thursday, August 14, or Friday the 15th would be best. Lunch, dinner, or later in the evening is fine by me. Could we get a volunteer who wants to compile the agenda (ask people what they want on it) and conduct the meeting? Not it. We could meet at my home in Provo (by the temple), or at a restaurant anywhere in Salt Lake or Utah valleys, or consider other places. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33F6A.0C66E8E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Irreantum meeting

That would be fine to have an ice cream social/meeting at my house.

I'm a little uncertain of whether to book it for Thursday nite, August 14, or Friday nite, August 15. I guess I don't know if Sunstone has something great going on one of those evenings or what.

Does anyone have a preference between those two nights at this point? Let's revisit this more as we get closer.

-----Original Message-----
From: Travis K. Manning [mailto:tmanning.eagle@sisna.com]
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 11:57 AM
To: irreantum-ed@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: [irr-ed] Irreantum meeting

Chris,

Why don't we meet at your home for the Irreantum meetin'. Since you don't have the barbecue, we could meet formally at 7 p.m. with desert afterward (no dinner). I vote for banana splits!! I'll bring the bananas! Chris, if you can bring icecream, since it would perhaps be easier for you to transport such a meltable treat (many of us being on the road and all), and each of us bring our favorite split topping....

I'll still compile the agenda and can shephard the meetin' (with ya'll's assistance).

Travis

----- Original Message -----

From: Christopher Bigelow

To: 'irreantum-ed@lists.xmission.com'

Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 9:57 AM

Subject: [irr-ed] Irreantum meeting

Let's do have an Irreantum gathering. Sounds like Thursday, August 14, or Friday the 15th would be best. Lunch, dinner, or later in the evening is fine by me.

Could we get a volunteer who wants to compile the agenda (ask people what they want on it) and conduct the meeting? Not it.

We could meet at my home in Provo (by the temple), or at a restaurant anywhere in Salt Lake or Utah valleys, or consider other places.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C33F6A.0C66E8E0-- -- Irreantum Editor's Discussion List ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Travis K. Manning" Subject: Re: [irr-ed] Irreantum Design Date: 30 Jun 2003 20:07:58 -0700 Ignore him! ^ ^ * * <-----> = Travis ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 2:07 PM > Quinn Warnick wrote: > > > D. Michael wrote: > > > Ugh. I had a feeling we'd run into this. The site is designed using xhtml > > and CSS (cascading style sheets) positioning, rather than tables, which is > > what sites have been designed in since 1993 or so. In my opinion, CSS design > > is superior for a list of reasons too long to enumerate here, but I > > acknowledge the fact that about 2% of browsers aren't "standards compliant." > > The biggest offender is Netscape Navigator version 4 and lower. D. Mike, if > > you could let me know what browser you're using, it will let me know if I'm > > coding wrong or if you're using a browser that just won't read the site. > > I'm using an "evil" browser--Netscape 4. I don't feel like going through > the rigmarole of updating. It works fine until someone like you comes > along and decides they just _need_ to be modern. If that's more > important to the web creators than communicating with me, then I just > brush them off and surf on. As far as I'm concerned, if it can't be done > with tables, it's not necessary. But then I'm not one of these > superficial web browsers who needs flash. I just need content. > > That's how I feel. You can decide for yourself if my obstinate attitude > is one you want to take into account in your design. > > -- > D. Michael Martindale > dmichael@wwno.com > > ================================== > Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at > http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths > > Sponsored by Worlds Without Number > http://www.wwno.com > ================================== > > -- > Irreantum Editor's Discussion List > -- Irreantum Editor's Discussion List ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Travis K. Manning" Subject: Re: [irr-ed] Irreantum Design Date: 30 Jun 2003 20:11:58 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006A_01C33F43.DBFDADE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [irr-ed] Irreantum DesignI like Marny's idea to contact past authors = of Irreantum and let them know what we're doing with Irreantum Online. = It's just one more way to strengthen our network of submitters and = subscribers, to spread "the good word" of Irreantum, to maintain that = professional relationship with authors and readers. Travis ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Christopher Bigelow=20 To: 'irreantum-ed@lists.xmission.com'=20 Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 3:46 PM Subject: RE: [irr-ed] Irreantum Design So we could put up any issue's PDF as long as it's complete. Cool!=20 My approach on sample printed copies is to usually charge higher (to = account for extra postage costs) but occasionally run a free sample = promo. -----Original Message-----=20 From: Marny Parkin [mailto:marnyparkin@pxi.net]=20 Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 5:03 PM=20 To: irreantum-ed@lists.xmission.com=20 Subject: Re: [irr-ed] Irreantum Design=20 >When it comes to offering FREE PDFs of Irreantum, I'm wondering if we = >shouldn't just do one PDF for now, to give potential = readers/subscribers:=20 >publishers, librarians, bookstore owners, readers and writers. = Getting=20 >permission for everyone who has ever written for Irreantum will = perhaps be a=20 >pain in our kiester. For the future, we could perhaps have authors=20 >automatically fill out and submit an electronic (or paper) copyright = form,=20 >which includes online publishing in Irreantum Online. But what = happens if=20 >one author of an entire issue of Irreantum refuses to submit, or we = cannot=20 >receive permission from said author to e-publish? I guess we keep = "the=20 >text" in the Table of Contents but delete their creative = contribution, and=20 >then we can give away that free PDF minus "that one author." We can = also=20 >have a FAQs section. We could also offer cheaper subscriptions to = Irreantum=20 >Online to teachers, librarians, or students (perhaps drastically = cheaper for=20 >students).=20 We have the right to distribute (print or pdf or otherwise) the=20 ENTIRE issue of Irreantum. We only have to ask permission of=20 individual authors to distribute individual pieces (print or on the=20 web or pdf or whatever). However, it would be nice to let previous=20 authors know what we are doing. It could be done as a single email=20 sent to all of them. We can ask permission to post individual pieces=20 in the same letter, asking for a specific yes or no response.=20 Often, magazines charge a higher rate for sample copies, but in our=20 case a free sample may be a good idea.=20 Marny=20 --=20 Irreantum Editor's Discussion List =20 ------=_NextPart_000_006A_01C33F43.DBFDADE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [irr-ed] Irreantum Design

I like Marny's idea to contact past authors of = Irreantum and=20 let them know what we're doing with Irreantum Online. It's just = one more=20 way to strengthen our network of submitters and subscribers, to spread = "the good=20 word" of Irreantum, to maintain that professional relationship with = authors and=20 readers.

Travis

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Christopher = Bigelow

To: 'irreantum-ed@lists.xmi= ssion.com'=20

Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 = 3:46 PM

Subject: RE: [irr-ed] Irreantum = Design

So we could put up any issue's PDF as long as it's = complete.=20 Cool!

My approach on sample printed copies is to usually = charge=20 higher (to account for extra postage costs) but occasionally run a = free sample=20 promo.

-----Original Message-----
From: Marny=20 Parkin [mailto:marnyparkin@pxi.net]=20
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 5:03 PM =
To: irreantum-ed@lists.xmissi= on.com=20
Subject: Re: [irr-ed] Irreantum Design =

>When it comes to offering FREE PDFs of = Irreantum, I'm=20 wondering if we
>shouldn't just do one = PDF for now,=20 to give potential readers/subscribers:
>publishers,=20 librarians, bookstore owners, readers and writers. = Getting=20
>permission for everyone who has ever written = for=20 Irreantum will perhaps be a
>pain in our=20 kiester. For the future, we could perhaps have authors =
>automatically fill out and submit an electronic (or = paper)=20 copyright form,
>which includes online = publishing=20 in Irreantum Online. But what happens if
>one=20 author of an entire issue of Irreantum refuses to submit, or we = cannot=20
>receive permission from said author to = e-publish? I=20 guess we keep "the
>text" in the Table of = Contents=20 but delete their creative contribution, and
>then=20 we can give away that free PDF minus "that one author." We can=20 also
>have a FAQs section. We could = also=20 offer cheaper subscriptions to Irreantum
>Online to=20 teachers, librarians, or students (perhaps drastically cheaper = for=20
>students).

We have the right to distribute (print or pdf or = otherwise)=20 the
ENTIRE issue of Irreantum. We only have = to ask=20 permission of
individual authors to = distribute=20 individual pieces (print or on the
web or = pdf or=20 whatever). However, it would be nice to let previous
authors know what we are doing. It could be done as a single = email=20
sent to all of them. We can ask permission = to post=20 individual pieces
in the same letter, asking = for a=20 specific yes or no response.

Often, magazines charge a higher rate for sample = copies, but=20 in our
case a free sample may be a good = idea.=20

Marny

--
Irreantum Editor's = Discussion List=20 <irreantum-ed@lists.xmission.com> =

------=_NextPart_000_006A_01C33F43.DBFDADE0-- -- Irreantum Editor's Discussion List ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Quinn Warnick" Subject: Re: [irr-ed] Irreantum meeting Date: 30 Jun 2003 22:03:20 -0600 I'll be at my parents' house in Pleasant Grove, so the short drive to Provo wouldn't be a problem either night. I'll bring the chopped almonds... Quinn ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 6:45 PM | That would be fine to have an ice cream social/meeting at my house. | | I'm a little uncertain of whether to book it for Thursday nite, August 14, | or Friday nite, August 15. I guess I don't know if Sunstone has something | great going on one of those evenings or what. | | Does anyone have a preference between those two nights at this point? Let's | revisit this more as we get closer. | | -----Original Message----- | From: Travis K. Manning [mailto:tmanning.eagle@sisna.com] | Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 11:57 AM | To: irreantum-ed@lists.xmission.com | Subject: Re: [irr-ed] Irreantum meeting | | | Chris, | | Why don't we meet at your home for the Irreantum meetin'. Since you don't | have the barbecue, we could meet formally at 7 p.m. with desert afterward | (no dinner). I vote for banana splits!! I'll bring the bananas! Chris, if | you can bring icecream, since it would perhaps be easier for you to | transport such a meltable treat (many of us being on the road and all), and | each of us bring our favorite split topping.... | | I'll still compile the agenda and can shephard the meetin' (with ya'll's | assistance). | | Travis | | | ----- Original Message ----- | From: Christopher Bigelow | To: 'irreantum-ed@lists.xmission.com' | | Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 9:57 AM | Subject: [irr-ed] Irreantum meeting | | | Let's do have an Irreantum gathering. Sounds like Thursday, August 14, or | Friday the 15th would be best. Lunch, dinner, or later in the evening is | fine by me. | | Could we get a volunteer who wants to compile the agenda (ask people what | they want on it) and conduct the meeting? Not it. | | We could meet at my home in Provo (by the temple), or at a restaurant | anywhere in Salt Lake or Utah valleys, or consider other places. | | -- Irreantum Editor's Discussion List ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Quinn Warnick" Subject: Re: [irr-ed] Irreantum Design Date: 30 Jun 2003 22:45:00 -0600 Marny wrote: | Oops. I meant *off* the left margin. Apparently my window size was | just small enough to make the left column mash against the left edge | of the window. I'd like you to add some padding to the style of the | left column so no matter what the window size, there is some white | space on the left edge. I squeezed in five pixels on each side, but I need at least another five. And that will make the columns narrower (I'm trying to keep the entire width under 800 pixels, and it's at 790 right now), which means I'll have to redo the graphics files (which fit the columns to the pixel). But I'll get there. Thanks for the input on this one. | I like what you've done with the "Irreantum Online" title. I think | the all caps are fine for the short titles, but when the titles get | longer, like the title of Melody's essay, they are much harder to | read. I suggest leaving "interview" or "essay" in caps, but using | initial caps for the rest of the title. If you want more visual | difference between the headline and the body copy, try using a | serifed font instead of all caps. And they could be a bit larger. I think the center column will have the large "In Our Current Issue" graphic at the top, and then smaller blue subtitle graphics that say "Fiction," "Essay," etc. The actual titles and bylines will probably not be all-caps -- I just need to play with the style sheet a little. I've been focusing on column widths and things like that -- now I can start worrying about font sizes and line spacing. | Yes, make the titles like "subscribe" links. I'll work on some roll-over images that make those graphics look like links. Yet another thing to learn... | I'm not sure what type of links to outside sites we need--how | redundant do we want to be to the AML site? I think doing a calendar | that is better/more consistently updated would be good, since we | publish news of the AML and a calendar fits in with that goal. Links | to the Mormon Lit db certainly fit with our purpose, but do we want | those links on the main page or on a secondary page? I still am | unsure what we want to have in that right column. I don't want to be too redundant to the AML site, but the reality is that the AML site is rarely updated. I hope the Irreantum can have a more timely feel to it. What I have in mind for the right column is hard to explain, but I think it can be a mix of news, announcements, links to interesting sites, maybe even a little gossip. Two great examples of what would go there: 1) A link to the recent Desert News article about Dutcher's struggles to get the Joseph Smith movie made, and 2) a shorter version of the gossip item Chris Bigelow forwarded to the AML-List about the lead in the Book of Mormon movie appearing nude in Queer as Folk. Will some of it be repeats of stuff discussed on AML-List? Probably. But we will archive all the links, which will make the site the go-to place for people who think, "I remember reading about all the controversy over Deseret Book's new editorial policy. Where was that article again? Oh yeah, I'll check Irreantum.org." The right column now sports a tiny graphic image of a piece of paper at the beginning of each item. Those images will be links to the permanent archive page for that item. So people will be able to email links to friends without worrying about whether the item will still be on the front page when the friend visits. Travis wrote: | The first page of the site does not fit on my screen with my Internet | Explorer browser (4.0?)--however, I have purposefully amped up the pixels so | all text is slightly larger for my poor eyesight; I would assume most web | users *don't* do this so I'm in the minority. As long as enough important | info is in the top half of the site so a person can tell what the site is at | quick glance without reading the bottom half of the site it should be fine. I don't think anyone will be able to see the whole page from top to bottom in their browser. I was more concerned about whether anyone has to scroll *horizontally* to see the entire page from left to right. If your monitor settings are lower than 800x600, you may have to. Is anyone using a setting lower than that? | the last thing to consider: perhaps we ought to also have a few | *non-AML staffers* peruse your webpage design, as first-time readers will | also be stumbling onto the site without a clue as to what the site is. | Fresh eyes--office mates, friends, family even--could also provide valuable | feedback on the site's functionality and design presentation. I've already asked a few web-designer friends to look at the site and test it for usability. I'll expand that group and probably invite all of you to do the same once we have some real content to look at. D. Michael wrote: | I'm using an "evil" browser Your words, not mine. | I don't feel like going through | the rigmarole of updating. Fair enough. | It works fine until someone like you comes | along and decides they just _need_ to be modern. Someone like me? You mean someone who is trying to design a site that is accessible to blind users? I'll take that as a compliment. | I'm not one of these | superficial web browsers who needs flash. I just need content. Funny that you should associate my design with the word "flash." I'm the least flashy designer I know. My other site (whiteshoe.org) is completely black and white with no graphics at all. CSS-based design is all about content -- separating content from design so sites are easier to update and accessible to a broader range of users and Internet devices. | That's how I feel. You can decide for yourself if my obstinate attitude | is one you want to take into account in your design. I have indeed taken it into account. If you visit the testing page (http://www.irreantum.org/testing.html), you'll find that I've rewritten the code so your browser doesn't see the style sheet. The site will still be completely readable, even in an "evil" browser, proving yet again that designing with web standards is the right thing to do. Quinn PS - I'm not sure everyone on the list appreciates this protracted discussion about minute details of the site's design, so I may not respond to each suggestion on this list. But please keep sending them (either to the list or to me personally), and trust that I'm listening and trying to incorporate every suggestion I can, even those from the "obstinate" crowd. :-) -- Irreantum Editor's Discussion List