From: owner-kevin-and-lucy-digest@lists.xmission.com (kevin-and-lucy-digest) To: kevin-and-lucy-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: kevin-and-lucy-digest V1 #41 Reply-To: kevin-and-lucy-digest Sender: owner-kevin-and-lucy-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-kevin-and-lucy-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk kevin-and-lucy-digest Tuesday, June 2 1998 Volume 01 : Number 041 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 20:35:52 MST From: eblood@xmission.com (Anne B) Subject: Re: K&L: K&L Spoiler On Sun, 31 May 1998 09:54:35 -0400, Tracey wrote: >s >p >o >i >l >e >r >s >p >a >c >e > >I just read in tv guide scoops and I don't know whether it is true or >not. But Lucy will get proof of Eve's past and Kevin will attempt to >stop her from telling Scott to no avail. When she returns he(Kevin) will >tell Lucy he can not trust. Some spoilers were posted on r.a.t.s.a. and one of them puzzled me until I read this. Lucy will apparently ask Scotty if she can move in with him. I believe this happens the week of June 8th. - -- Anne B eblood@xmission.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 21:56:03 -0500 From: Debi Sanders Subject: Re: K&L: K&L Spoiler Anne B wrote: > On Sun, 31 May 1998 09:54:35 -0400, Tracey wrote: > >s > >p > >o > >i > >l > >e > >r > >s > >p > >a > >c > >e > > > >I just read in tv guide scoops and I don't know whether it is true or > >not. But Lucy will get proof of Eve's past and Kevin will attempt to > >stop her from telling Scott to no avail. When she returns he(Kevin) will > >tell Lucy he can not trust. > > Some spoilers were posted on r.a.t.s.a. and one of them puzzled me > until I read this. Lucy will apparently ask Scotty if she can move > in with him. I believe this happens the week of June 8th. > > -- > WHAT!!! Oh My Gosh!! Hold Taiyin back! LOL Debi > > > > - - -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Debi Sanders http://members.aol.com/DebiVF/THL.html "come visit" (å¿å) ------------------------------------------------------------ - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 23:24:03 MST From: eblood@xmission.com (Anne B) Subject: Re: K&L: K&L Spoiler On Sun, 31 May 1998 21:56:03 -0500, Debi wrote: S P O I L E R S P A C E > > >Anne B wrote: > >> >> Some spoilers were posted on r.a.t.s.a. and one of them puzzled me >> until I read this. Lucy will apparently ask Scotty if she can move >> in with him. I believe this happens the week of June 8th. >> >> -- >> WHAT!!! Oh My Gosh!! Hold Taiyin back! LOL > >Debi > Well, the actual spoiler is Scotty refuses to allow Lucy to move in with him, so it could be worse. The spoilers are originally from Compuserve--the other Kevin/Lucy related one is that Victor and Kevin point fingers at each other. - -- Anne B eblood@xmission.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 22:50:46 -0700 From: Taiyin Subject: Re: K&L: Suggestions? At 08:04 AM 5/29/98 -0700, Geri Fosseen wrote: > >One more though....where was Siggy between Xmas and Valentine's Day??? Only Kevin knows that answer to that one. Taiyin "I was thinking about us in the kitchen." - --"Oh Lucy, the kitchen is far too dangerous a place, there are all those free-standing appliances." --Lucy and Kevin, "GH" - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 01:55:00 EDT From: Subject: Re: K&L: K&L Spoiler just shoot me now this had better not be true NO WAY! <> WHAT?? ARRRRGGGG!! Okay, someone please explain this one to me, before I throw my vcr in the canal. Have we not been through enough? How does Lucy justify this??????? Regina - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 22:55:36 -0700 From: Taiyin Subject: Re: K&L: Suggestions? At 11:41 AM 5/29/98 -0400, Rika wrote: > >The best explanation would be to suggest a tiny alteration to Taiyin's >account of the story. She said that on Valentine's Day Kevin gave Lucy >"the duck." It might be more accurate to say that he gave her "a duck." Which is honestly the only thing that really makes any sence, given that Kevin told Lucy back in December: "You know -- dinner." But at Valentine's Day he SWORE it was "her duck." Of course, that could mean any number of things, but since Lucy chooses to beleive it, and since Kevin is such an advocate of honesty, most of us chose to believe it, too. Taiyin "I was thinking about us in the kitchen." - --"Oh Lucy, the kitchen is far too dangerous a place, there are all those free-standing appliances." --Lucy and Kevin, "GH" - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 23:08:54 -0700 From: Taiyin Subject: Re: K&L: Kevin, Lucy, and a Joyride At 04:41 PM 5/31/98 -0400, Rika wrote: >Here's transcript #2 from my all-time favorite Kevin/Lucy week. I know >that for any of us, two words bring it all back - "Mac's Car." Heh heh heh. One of my A-#1, all time favorite scenes ever. Thank you, thank you Rika!! Taiyin "I was thinking about us in the kitchen." - --"Oh Lucy, the kitchen is far too dangerous a place, there are all those free-standing appliances." --Lucy and Kevin, "GH" - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 23:15:12 -0700 From: Taiyin Subject: Re: K&L: K&L Spoiler At 08:35 PM 5/31/98 MST, Anne B wrote: >>s >>p >>o >>i >>l >>e >>r >>s >>p >>a >>c >>e >> > >Some spoilers were posted on r.a.t.s.a. and one of them puzzled me >until I read this. Lucy will apparently ask Scotty if she can move >in with him. I believe this happens the week of June 8th. Grrrrrrrr. Man oh man. This storyline is pushing ALL my buttons. I don't know what irritates me more: when Kevin & Lucy are the ONLY reasons that I watch GH/PC or when Kevin & Lucy are just PAINFUL to watch, but all the rest of my favorites rock. Grump. Taiyin "Been held-up at gun point by your mother lately?" -- AJ to Ned - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 23:16:43 -0700 From: Taiyin Subject: Re: K&L: K&L Spoiler At 09:56 PM 5/31/98 -0500, Debi Sanders wrote: >> >s >> >p >> >o >> >i >> >l >> >e >> >r >> >s >> >p >> >a >> >c >> >e >> > >> -- > WHAT!!! Oh My Gosh!! Hold Taiyin back! LOL ROTFLMAO!!! Oh man, I think I'm getting too predictable in my old age. :-) Too true, though. Too, too true. Taiyin "I was thinking about us in the kitchen." - --"Oh Lucy, the kitchen is far too dangerous a place, there are all those free-standing appliances." --Lucy and Kevin, "GH" - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 00:18:08 -0700 From: Taiyin Subject: Re: K&L: swiss cheese OK, well, since everyone knew I wouldn't stay silent forever, and since I finally caught up on over a week's worth of PC today, I figured I'd jump in here about now. And in the interest of consolidation, I'll combine my responses to the previous posts on this topic: Julie wrote: >is it just me, or is anyone else getting REALLY annoyed >by the number of holes in this current story, Amen. >eminently sensible doc (while i LOVED his attempted >persuasion of lucy yesterday) is really missing what i >consider some of the more pertinent points??? Well, as Rika pointed out, he did bring it up once, but I think he backs off WAY too much. He mentions it once, she either ducks it or brushes it off, and then he doesn't bring it up again. THAT makes me crazy. >for example: lucy claims if she can prove eve was a >hooker in college, that will prove she's a murderer now. >HUH? Yup. I was folding laundry while I was watching PC today, and I think I threw more of it at my TV than I actually folded and put away. >second, it REALLY burned me up yesteday when lucy >grasped at something kevin said, and then tried to >justify all her shenanigans as trying to help kevin feel >less guilty about these murders by catching the real >killer. Well, I agree and disagree. And this gets back to my issue with Lynn Latham as a writer: I LOVE the way she writes Kevin. Most of the time, I LOVE the way she writes Kevin and Lucy. But I HATE the way she writes Lucy. And when Lucy is driving the scenes, K&L scenes can be downright painful. So, while Lucy most CERTAINLY is concerned about Kevin blaming himself, and while when push comes to shove NOBODY defends and protects Kevin more or better than Lucy does, I agree that that conversation was extremely contrived and convenient. Yes, she wants to keep Doc from blaming himself, but her immediate and driving motivation here is sticking it to Eve. So while, on one level, she was certainly sincere, I agree that it bothered me because it was just another example of her ducking and weaving. >bottom line--remember all our previous conversations about >the "old lucy" versus the "new lucy"? well...whoever's writing >this is giving us FAR too large a dose of the old lucy for my >taste. so there! I definitely agree with that. Rika wrote: >I actually think that explains some of Lucy's motivations. She sees a lot >of Eve in herself, and she knows the way she used to be, so she doesn't >trust Eve. I doubt that she's consciously aware of the parallels, but I >think they affect her perceptions very strongly. This I totally agree with. And I agree that from her point of view she has some VERY valid reasons for thinking that Eve really is guilty. And I think Katherine is an excellent and perfectly valid point. >I'll try to offer a capsule of my "Motives vs. Methods" theory before >applying it to this new situation. I argued then that I hadn't seen >anything to convince me that Lucy had regressed all that much (if at all). Well, for as often as you and I agree, Rika, we still disagree on this front. Not much, but enough. >I suggested that the difference between the "old" and "new" Lucy was in her >motives. Yes and no. I think the monkey-wrench in this theory (for me) is the Jasmine Island storyline. There was a very, very, very long time in there where her motives AND her tactics were in tune with each other. And I think that, in that way, those of us with a natural tenancy to give Lucy the benefit of the doubt (which makes us nuts by definition, I'm sure ) really see that whole storyline as an evolution for Lucy, rather than an aberration. And I know that, as a rule, I give Lucy more credit than most, anyway, but that storyline was SO big, and it dragged out for SO long, and it covered SO much territory, that falling back to the typical behavior patterns pre-Jasmine Island is, IMO, a regression. And it ticks me off royally. >But this goes back again >to Lucy's unfortunately limited repertoire of methods, and her tendency to >say, "This is the only way" when she could more truthfully say, "This is >the only way I can think of right now that involves drastic action." OK, now we're back to the 100% agreement territory. >but I've decided that if I were Lucy I wouldn't trust Eve either, despite >her generosity in helping them in the scheme to nail Rex. I agree. Lucy doesn't understand Eve's relationship with Chris -- hell, only the audience understands that relationship at ALL. Even Scott doesn't. And what she saw with them in the lab would be enough to make me suspicious. And, after the Katherine situation, I can easily see how she is feeling like, once again, she is the only thing standing between Scott and disaster -- only this time the stakes feel higher for her because Serena is not a hypothetical, unborn child. She is a six year old little girl who sees Lucy as the only mother she really has. And we ALL know how Lucy feels about Serena. And, honestly, the bit where Serena gave both Lucy and Eve cards at Mother's Day (even though Eve's wasn't really a Mother's Day card) would have made me CRAZY. I wouldn't have handled it the way Lucy did, but I would have barely been able to hold myself together until I could get to a private room before I collapsed in tears. Serena certainly didn't do anything WRONG, but I think that action HAD to hurt like hell. And when Lucy is hurt, she lashes out -- often blindly. TC wrote: >Does she want Scott back? I know at first it was just blind jealousy over >Serena but are the writers pointing to something else? Are they saying >underneath all this Eve bashing Lucy really wants to be with Scott? No, I don't think it's that at all. I think it's like Lee said back last spring before the premiere of PC: "I don't think Scott ever really imagined you (Lucy) with anyone but himself." And so I don't think it's a matter so much of them WANTING to be together since, as Rika has pointed out previously, even when they WERE together they couldn't make it work (they were at least as dysfunctional as Sonny and Brenda EVER were -- and for many of the same reasons), I think it's mostly a matter of them being used to being very important to each other. Neither is really used to having to share in ANY capacity. It took Scott QUITE a while to get used to the idea of Kevin & Lucy. And K&L are, and have been, an essentially stable, solid couple for quite a while. I think it'd take a long-term, serious relationship before Lucy would EVER let herself try to get used to Scott being involved with anyone else. And, since Scott can be a monumental bonehead at times, I think Lucy feels very justified in trying to protect him from his less-than-brilliant instincts. And never underestimate her fear at being displaced in Serena's life. That Mother's Day card thing had to have SERIOUSLY hurt and it must've really made her feel even more vulnerable on that score. >I dont know why on the soaps two strong independent woman are >always played against each other..... One of my pet peeves. And one that always leads me back to the misogyny of Hollywood and the male excitement and fascination with cat fights (and it's not even just soaps). Then again, I'm a cynic that way. ;-) Regina wrote: >But when Kevin pushes her to admit it, she does generally >acknowledge that she's taking a risk with her >life. She just did that this week, when she said something along the >lines of "Oh okay, so I take a few risks," prompting Kevin's lovely little >speech about how he doesn't, not when it comes to losing her. I think >she knows, down inside, that she's risking her life. I don't think she really recognizes that. I think when she sees "risk" she sees minor things like blowing her cover or ticking off a john. When Kevin sees "risk" he sees her getting raped or killed. I don't think they see that the same way at all. Lucy's confidence in her own ability to talk her way out of trouble is WHY she gets into so much trouble. And THAT is what I was saying a couple weeks ago about being angry that, with the limited exception of Claire Labine, head writers seem to have HUGE problem with letting Lucy learn from her mistakes. These games didn't work with Damian. They didn't work with Joe Scully. They didn't work with Rex. They just don't work. I am the biggest Claire Labine fan in the world and the fact that SHE is the one who created Kevin AND Ryan and that she is the one who put K&L together in the first place will ALWAYS be enough reason for me to be in her corner, but no matter what other ways she allowed Lucy to grow, even she didn't give us a break when it came to Lucy's sex games. And what I find highly contradictory is that Lucy can be allowed to evolve in so many other ways (though they are pretty invisible at the moment), writers seem to have a TERRIBLE time letting her evolve on that score. And it bugs the daylights out of me. OK, I think that is enough from me for one night... Taiyin, who misses her internet connection at work like CRAZY "Playing at seduction can be dangerous." - --"Doctor, I never play at seduction. It's always the real thing." -- Kevin and Lucy, "General Hospital" - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 14:15:52 -0400 From: Rika Subject: Re: K&L: Suggestions? At 10:55 PM 6/1/98 -0700, you wrote: >At 11:41 AM 5/29/98 -0400, Rika wrote: >> >>The best explanation would be to suggest a tiny alteration to Taiyin's >>account of the story. She said that on Valentine's Day Kevin gave Lucy >>"the duck." It might be more accurate to say that he gave her "a duck." > >Which is honestly the only thing that really makes any sence, given that >Kevin told Lucy back in December: "You know -- dinner." > >But at Valentine's Day he SWORE it was "her duck." Of course, that could >mean any number of things, but since Lucy chooses to beleive it, and since >Kevin is such an advocate of honesty, most of us chose to believe it, too. Well, it *was* "her duck." He bought it especially for her! :-) Rika - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 14:42:14 -0400 From: Rika Subject: Re: K&L: swiss cheese At 12:18 AM 6/2/98 -0700, Taiyin wrote: >Well, as Rika pointed out, he did bring it up once, but I think he backs >off WAY too much. He mentions it once, she either ducks it or brushes it >off, and then he doesn't bring it up again. THAT makes me crazy. As T'n'T once described it on RATSA, the typical Kevin/Lucy storyline goes as follows (this is a paraphrase): "Lucy comes up with a crazy plan. Kevin blows up when he hears about it. Kevin cools off and goes along with the crazy plan." This pattern goes all the way back to Joe Scully. Sigh..... But maybe that's about to change. I think the one who's changed recently is Kevin, not Lucy. Jon Lindstrom talked about it in that recent interview in SPW. He feels that Kevin is now someone very well in touch with his emotions, and also with a sense of when he's had as much as he can take. I think everyone is going to find today's PC extremely interesting, BTW. I'm too lazy to put in spoiler space so I'll say no more. >>for example: lucy claims if she can prove eve was a >>hooker in college, that will prove she's a murderer now. >>HUH? > >Yup. I was folding laundry while I was watching PC today, and I think I >threw more of it at my TV than I actually folded and put away. Today they did a better job of articulating the connection. I'll avoid spoilers, but consider that we know that Eve's potential motive for murdering Devlin is that he knew about her past as a hooker and was threatening to reveal it. (And, no, I don't think she killed Devlin, but that's still a pretty good motive.) If Lucy believed that Devlin knew about Eve's past too, would that make her belief about the connection more sensible? >Yes, she wants to keep Doc from blaming himself, but her immediate and >driving motivation here is sticking it to Eve. So while, on one level, she >was certainly sincere, I agree that it bothered me because it was just >another example of her ducking and weaving. I look at it as Lucy getting to kill two birds with one stone. If she can prove it's Eve, it accomplishes several goals, one of which (though, I agree, not the major one) is to relieve Kevin's guilt. And since Lucy has a problem viewing situations objectively, "I want it to be Eve" becomes "It is Eve" all too easily. >Yes and no. I think the monkey-wrench in this theory (for me) is the >Jasmine Island storyline. There was a very, very, very long time in there >where her motives AND her tactics were in tune with each other. Only, I think, because the situation didn't lend itself to her more extravagant tactics. And let's not forget, she seriously considered arranging a jail-break. That's something most of us wouldn't have considered...... >And, honestly, the bit where Serena gave both Lucy and Eve cards at >Mother's Day (even though Eve's wasn't really a Mother's Day card) would >have made me CRAZY. I wouldn't have handled it the way Lucy did, but I >would have barely been able to hold myself together until I could get to a >private room before I collapsed in tears. Serena certainly didn't do >anything WRONG, but I think that action HAD to hurt like hell. And when >Lucy is hurt, she lashes out -- often blindly. Amen to all of that! >And, since Scott can be a monumental bonehead at times, I think Lucy feels >very justified in trying to protect him from his less-than-brilliant >instincts. Yeah. I have to say, if Scott were my friend, I'd watch him like a hawk. >I don't think she really recognizes that. I think when she sees "risk" she >sees minor things like blowing her cover or ticking off a john. When Kevin >sees "risk" he sees her getting raped or killed. I don't think they see >that the same way at all. Lucy's confidence in her own ability to talk her >way out of trouble is WHY she gets into so much trouble. Absolutely. It's typical of a gambler to assume that they can beat the odds. There's been academic research done with managers where they are given information about the potential risks and rewards of a project, complete with the probabilities of different-sized profits and losses. A lot of managers will recommend that the company implement projects whose potential rewards don't justify the risks, apparently because they think they can do better than the average manager. It's a variation on that Lake Wobegone line - "All the children are above average." Lucy is just a really, REALLY extreme example of this phenomenon. >And THAT is what I was saying a couple weeks ago about being angry that, >with the limited exception of Claire Labine, head writers seem to have >HUGE problem with letting Lucy learn from her mistakes. These games didn't >work with Damian. They didn't work with Joe Scully. They didn't work with >Rex. They just don't work. Agreed. That's part of my motives-vs-methods thing - since they never let her add some new methods to her toolbox, she's stuck with the old, crazy ones. Rika - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 14:51:54 -0400 From: Rika Subject: K&L: Clarification of the spoiler First, I just had to say, it's so much fun to have so many people posting to the list! It's been too quiet lately. Second, about the PC spoiler that was reported and has been discussed, I went over to RATSA and got it. S K I P D O W N A L I T T L E B I T This was taken from the 5/29 SOD, so I believe these spoilers are for the week of June 1: On "Port Charles" Scott refuses to allow Lucy to move in with him. Ellen considers taking her old job back. Frank issues Courtney a warning to stay away. Eve confesses to Scott about her years as an escort. Victor and Kevin point fingers at each other. Based on what happened on PC today, I'm guessing the Scott/Lucy spoiler contains a mistake. On today's show, Eve visited Scott and told him she needed a place to live. Serena invited her to move in with them. Eve and Scott later discussed it, and Scott explained the reasons why he didn't think it would be a good idea for Eve to move in with them (Eve agreed with him). So either Scott turns down two women as potential roomies this week, or else maybe that spoiler should have read, "Scott refuses to let Eve move in with him." Rika - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 15:14:17 -0400 From: "Julie E. Saker" Subject: K&L: Clarification of the spoiler Message text written by INTERNET:kevin-and-lucy@lists.xmission.com >First, I just had to say, it's so much fun to have so many people postin= g >to the list! It's been too quiet lately. agreed! :) >Second, about the PC spoiler that was reported and has been discussed, I= >went over to RATSA and got it. S K I P D O W N A L I T T L E B I T >This was taken from the 5/29 SOD, so I believe these spoilers are for th= e >week of June 1: > On "Port Charles" Scott refuses to allow Lucy to move in with him. > Ellen considers taking her old job back. Frank issues Courtney a > warning to stay away. = um...one question. who's courtney?!? (did i REALLY miss something?) >So either Scott turns down two women as potential roomies this week, >or else maybe that spoiler should have read, "Scott refuses to let Eve move >in with him." well, i think either is possible, based on something someone posted earlier. didn't someone post a spoiler saying that kevin tells lucy he can't trust her anymore, or something like that? if that's true, i can s= ee lucy storming off in a huff and asking to live with scott. or...you're right...it could be a magazine error. :) julie - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:04:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Cagey Subject: Re: K&L: Clarification of the spoiler At 03:14 PM 6/1/1998 -0400, Julie E. Saker wrote: >um...one question. who's courtney?!? (did i REALLY miss something?) Joe's ex-girlfriend, mother of the sick kid, blackmailer of married men. Is Ellen back yet? - --kg - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:40:59 -0400 From: "Julie E. Saker" Subject: Re: K&L: Clarification of the spoiler Message text written by INTERNET:kevin-and-lucy@lists.xmission.com >Joe's ex-girlfriend, mother of the sick kid, blackmailer of >married men. ah...thank you. her name hadn't registered for some reason. by the way, anybody else think sick kid (neal?) is old enough to = be joe's? >Is Ellen back yet? yup. julie - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 22:21:37 EDT From: Subject: Re: K&L: Clarification of the spoiler In a message dated 98-06-01 15:16:04 EDT, jesaker@compuserve.com writes: << >First, I just had to say, it's so much fun to have so many people posting >to the list! It's been too quiet lately. agreed! :) >> Glad the group feels that way since I for one am a rather talkative type, my well-deserved reputation as a lurker notwithstanding. S C R O L L For S C O O P Comments << didn't someone post a spoiler saying that kevin tells lucy he can't trust her anymore, or something like that? if that's true, i can see lucy storming off in a huff and asking to live with scott.>> I picked up some soap mags tonight, and one of them has a picture of Kevin and a caption that reads something to the effect that Kevin feels he can't trust her. So it may well be that the scoop about her asking to live with Scott is for real...... Regina - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 22:21:33 EDT From: Subject: Re: K&L: swiss cheese In a message dated 98-06-01 14:44:48 EDT, you write: << This pattern goes all the way back to Joe Scully. Sigh..... But maybe that's about to change. I think the one who's changed recently is Kevin, not Lucy. Jon Lindstrom talked about it in that recent interview in SPW. He feels that Kevin is now someone very well in touch with his emotions, and also with a sense of when he's had as much as he can take. >> I didn't see that interview :-( Is that Soap Opera Weekly? (can't figure out what the P stands for ). In any event, I'd be quite happy if that turns out to be true. I really would like to see that typical K/L pattern changed, at least a little bit, if for no other reason than for variety's sake. <> Yes, I was *very* intrigued by Kevin today. Just how long after a show airs do we need spoiler space, btw? I know that in some parts of the country other shows (such as AMC) air a full day later than in most of the rest of the country. So on the off chance that that's the case with PC, I'll throw in some spoiler space now. Can't Say As I Blame The Guy One Little Bit Go Kevin! I think it's about time that Kevin spoke up, IMO, both about her priorities and the wedding. Did anyone else feel like he took the words right out of your mouth? I sure did. Don't get me wrong; I adore this couple, but I'd like to wake Lucy up a bit - having everyone *except* Kevin at the top of her list of priorities is getting tiresome to me. What did everyone make of Lucy claiming to Doc that their disagreement is about his wanting to always be right? That kind of came out of left field at me. I don't have a complete set of K/L scenes, but in what I *do* have I don't really recall the issue of which one of them is "right" about something being a particular bone of contention between them. Probably what bothered me the most though is her throwing Scott's assessment of Kevin in his face. I suppose I have an irrational fear of her & Scott's relationship. Then again just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that nobody's chasing you. <> Yes it would. << When Kevin >sees "risk" he sees her getting raped or killed. I don't think they see >that the same way at all. Lucy's confidence in her own ability to talk her >way out of trouble is WHY she gets into so much trouble.> Absolutely. It's typical of a gambler to assume that they can beat the odds. >> Well I still see a difference here. It's the difference between the gambler's belief that she'll win every time versus her awareness of what the odds are. (i.e., in my theory, she believes that how much she's putting at risk is irrelevant because she's not going to lose it anyway - but that doesn't preclude her awareness of the stakes) Yes she's a gambler, and yes she believes that she can talk her way out of trouble, but IMO underneath it all she's cognizant of just what *kind* of trouble she *might* have to talk her way out of. I'll grant that she's in a degree of denial about the risks to her life or health, but IMO that's all it is. The Joe Scully scam is a case in point. Numerous times she/Kevin discussed it, and she knew IMO that crossing a criminal-thug's path is inherently dangerous; surely she wasn't naive enough to think that Scully wasn't dangerous. She just thought that the combination of Luke on her side and her own ability to talk her way through things would suffice to protect them all more than it did. At any rate, Kevin certainly pointed out to her often enough the potential for her to get hurt. (at least I think so?) Same with Rex. Surely she knew the guy was capable of murder. So IMO, yes she does think she can talk her way out of anything, but I still contend that she thinks she can "handle" or manage to avoid, losing her life, which by definition means that she acknowledges that the possibility exists. Part of the thrill of gambling is how high the stakes are, after all. Not always, and not even primarily with Lucy, I'll grant that. But otherwise, in effect, we're saying that this particular gambler isn't aware of how much money she's just put on the table....... Regina - - ------------------------------ Date: Tues, 2 Jun 1998 00:02:29 MST From: eblood@xmission.com (Anne B) Subject: Re: K&L: swiss cheese On Mon, 1 Jun 1998 22:21:33 EDT, wrote: >In a message dated 98-06-01 14:44:48 EDT, you write: > >Can't >Say >As >I >Blame >The >Guy >One >Little >Bit >Go >Kevin! > >What did everyone make of Lucy claiming to Doc that their disagreement is >about his wanting to always be right? Well, I haven't seen Monday's episode yet (it doesn't air 'til Tuesday morning where I live), but looking at their past history I'd say that it's Lucy that always has to be right--perhaps she is projecting here. Maybe that is why this has become such an obsession for her; Kevin disagrees with her about Eve, so she wants to prove that he is wrong. While Kevin is sure that Eve is innocent, he doesn't seem to be out to prove Lucy wrong. In fact he has even defended her having this opinion to Eve and Scott. But I felt that one of the reasons the Rex engagement happened was because Lucy couldn't admit that she had made a mistake, and she does seem to try to bully Kevin into agreeing with her as opposed to just agreeing to go along with her plans. He sort of called her on that when he asked her why she had to get his approval for staying married to Rex when she was determined to do it no matter what Kevin thought. Bottom line--Lucy respects Kevin's opinion and deep down knows that in their track record he has been right more times than her so she feels she has something to prove. Of course, like I said before, I haven't seen this episode yet and Lucy might have some valid points, although it doesn't sound like either you or Rika were impressed with her. - -- Anne B eblood@xmission.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 07:06:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Cagey Subject: Re: K&L: swiss cheese Regina wrote: >Just how long after a show airs do we need spoiler space, btw? If you have advance information about an episode, it must have spoiler space. Posting without spoiler space immediately after the show airs is okay, but some people do include "courtesy" spoiler space even in that case, and that is fine with us. >I don't have a complete set of K/L scenes, but in what I *do* have I >don't really recall the issue of which one of them is "right" about something >being a particular bone of contention between them. I didn't see the scene from PC, but the "right" issue has come up in the past. In particular, I think it's at the heart of the Madame Mia blow-up. In the end, I don't think it mattered so much to Lucy that MM was a fraud, but it hurt her that Kevin went to such ludicrous ends to prove that he was right when he said she was. MM had a sense of humor about the whole thing . Neither Kevin nor Lucy could. So do you think that motherhood would make Lucy less likely to take such chances? - --kg - - ------------------------------ Date: Tues, 2 Jun 1998 10:01:03 MST From: eblood@xmission.com (Anne B) Subject: Re: K&L: swiss cheese On Tue, 2 Jun 1998 07:06:05 -0700 (PDT), Cagey wrote: >Regina wrote: >I didn't see the scene from PC, but the "right" issue has >come up in the past. In particular, I think it's at the >heart of the Madame Mia blow-up. In the end, I don't think >it mattered so much to Lucy that MM was a fraud, but it >hurt her that Kevin went to such ludicrous ends to prove >that he was right when he said she was. KG, thanks for bringing up Madame Maia, cause I think there is a lot of parallels between that story and this one. First of all, it was a significant turning point in their relationship. Since then all Lucy has to say is "You're trying to control me" and K pretty much backs down. But Monday's episode suggests that he is not going to fall for that line so easily anymore; he's come full circle. Secondly, it occurs to me that K&L are playing their reverse "Madame Maia" role in this storyline. For example, one of them tries to get information in disguise (Norma, hooker) and the other teaches them a lesson by first going along with the deception. Then there is the methods vs. motives issue, and while I think Kevin's methods were atrocious, I think Lucy has given him a bum rap as far as motives go, because it wasn't just about being right (although that was a factor). K wanted to protect L, and right now that's all the excuse she feels she needs for what she's doing. But he was also doing it to protect his territory (Lucy). MM was constantly bad mouthing him to Lucy--talking about his dark side. And now Lucy is protecting her territory (Serena). However, there is also a survival instinct; Madame Maia was torturing him with images of Ryan--so he had a reason outside of Lucy to go after Maia; she was out to get him and he at least didn't believe Lucy would help protect him even, if he showed her the proof that he and Mac found. Even before what we learned at Jasmine Island, you can imagine what being neddled by "Ryan's ghost" was doing to Kevin. Can someone think of a parallel for Lucy in this story? But you know, at the time I had more sympathies for Kevin's motives than I now do for Lucy's. Lucy has not heard from Scott that Eve is bad mouthing her, and nobody is gaslighting her. Perhaps that just shows that Labine was a better writer than Latham. > >So do you think that motherhood would make Lucy less likely >to take such chances? > >--kg > I don't know. Serena was the reason for Lucy getting involved with Rex. - -- Anne B eblood@xmission.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 12:15:18 -0400 From: "Julie E. Saker" Subject: Re: K&L: swiss cheese Message text written by INTERNET:kevin-and-lucy@lists.xmission.com >So do you think that motherhood would make Lucy less likely >to take such chances? what a delicious possibility! :) well...my first instinct was to say yes, of course...but then i gave it some thought and changed my mind. in as much as she's currently acting as surrogate mom for serena, that doesn't seem to have changed her risky behavior any. i agree somewhat with whoever (rika?) posted the methods vs. motives theory in this regard--i think motherhood would not be likely to change her chance-taking attitude at all, as long as those chances were being taken (either in reality, or in lucy-logic) for the sake of her child. or her doc. or her duck. or her friend scotty. = or her pseudo-daughter serena. or any other justification she can convince herself of at the moment. so basically...i'd say her motives would be (hopefully) more clear-cut and pure if she were a mom, but her methods would be unlikely to change much. just my opinion, based on the current writing! :) julie - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 12:37:48 -0400 From: "Julie E. Saker" Subject: Re: K&L: swiss cheese Message text written by INTERNET:kevin-and-lucy@lists.xmission.com >But you know, at the time I had more sympathies for Kevin's motives >than I now do for Lucy's. = y'know, i HAVE to say this even though i know i'm going to get ripped apart--if this keeps up much longer i'm going to wind up HATING lucy. i was almost there yesterday, when she was taking SUCH glee after meeing up with alan's hooker in jail...she's just being AWFUL these days. i know she has her reasons, and that if you look at it from the perspective of what she does and doesn't know that it almost makes sense. but, you know what? i LIKE eve, much the same way i used to like lucy. and a large part of the reason i hated katherine so much (among MANY others) was how awful she used to be to lucy (even though it WAS kind of fun to watch)-- and the more people attacked lucy, the better i liked her and the = less i liked the attackers. (same for ned and a.j.) now...lucy's doing the attacking, and eve's the attacked, and they way = things have been going, i'm starting to like eve a LOT more and lucy quite a bit less... i hope tptb start treading a little more lightly as far as those two are concerend...SOON. julie - - ------------------------------ End of kevin-and-lucy-digest V1 #41 ***********************************