From: owner-klr650-digest@lists.xmission.com (klr650-digest) To: klr650-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: klr650-digest V1 #298 Reply-To: klr650@lists.xmission.com Sender: owner-klr650-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-klr650-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk klr650-digest Monday, October 12 1998 Volume 01 : Number 298 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 16:50:15 -0600 From: "Kurt Simpson" Subject: Re: (klr650) hard bags - -----Original Message----- From: Jim Stanton To: klr650@lists.xmission.com Date: Monday, October 12, 1998 3:38 PM Subject: (klr650) hard bags >Does anyone make hard bags for the KLR? > >Jim > > Al Jesse aluminum panniers; Givi; and on the lower economic scale, Pelican Bags with homemade attachments (watch for the next, first issue of Dual Sport News). Kurt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 16:57:41 -0600 From: "Kurt Simpson" Subject: Re: (klr650) oil level >I noticed this "problem"? when I changed oil the first time. I just filled >it to the top of the sight glass then started it to soak up the oil filter >etc., let it sit awhile and topped off to the top of sight glass. I sure >wouldn't over fill the thing! It isn't the problem of generating more heat >but rather having the moving parts beat the oil into a foam. Foamy oil >doesn't work very well in this type of system. Aren't we all missing the >point? The most important thing is to not let the oil level fall below the >min. line, as long as it is in between the lines you are all right. > Alan Henderson > The reason this argument doesn't go away is just when you think it is a simple thing..."so there" another aspect rears its head. For example, for those who say, "no controversy I just follow the manufactures recommended amount 2.5 liter everytime I change oil" well, for those people they have just added 6-9 ounces of oil "above" the sight glass. For those who say, "I'll use the sight glass" better start checking after 2 qts because you won't get more than 2 qts. 14 ounces in it, again 6 ounces less than those who follow the recommended amount. Upon re-reading my owner's manual it does seem to imply that you should use the sight glass and that the amount of oil it will take to get there may vary. For example, it says 2.3 qts (2 qts 6.4 ounces) when filter is not removed and 2.6 qts (2 qts 19.2 ounces) when filter is replaced. This last amount won't work in my bike w/o putting it 5 to 6 ounces above the top line. Kurt A12 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 18:22:25 -0500 From: Alan Henderson Subject: (klr650) Valve clearance checking. I checked with my dealer at 500 miles and was told that I didn't really need to check the valves. I asked two different times just to make sure. The mechanic agreed. I did all the other checking myself. The bike is now at 800 miles and I will check the valves myself pretty soon. In everyones experience is this correct or should they be checked at 500? Yes I know what the manual says but I am asking for personal experience along the lines of, when you first checked your valves did they need adjustment or were they still within tolerance? Alan Henderson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 16:55:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Wayne Subject: (klr650) A few More '86 KLR600 Questions Thanks to everyone who responed to my question last week about anything special to look for on a used '86 KLR600. I've finally been able to set up a time to look at it/give it a ride tommrow night. My intended use for it will be commuting to work, short touring (got a Voyager for the long stuff or when the wife goes along) and some light logging road stuff. I found a copy of a '84 shop manual and was able to get some info from it but I still have a few specific questions. 1. Does the '86 have the 11l gas tank? If so is there a larger aftermarket available? 2. Does it come with a windshield and if not is there a aftermarket one available? 3. How does the 600 compare to the 650? 4. Would the KLR650 be a better bike for what I want to use it for? The guy is asking $850 for the '86 and I might be able to get it at a lower price which would allow me to do the windshield/tank upgrades if they are available. Thanks, Wayne Favre Seattle, WA '86 Voyager XII ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 17:33:20 -0700 From: "Dean Harrison" Subject: (klr650) Torque wrench w/extension - ---------------------------------SNIP--------------------------------------- - ---- >1. Question (No complaining yet). Does using an universal joint adapter >and thus turning at an angle effect torque reading?..... Any time you add an adapter you increase the actual torque from the indicated torque. Adding a 6" extender to my 3/8" wrench increases the actual torque to 90 ft.lbs. when it only shows 60 ft.lbs on the dial. - ---------------------------------SNIP--------------------------------------- - ---- If your saying the addition of a 6" extension on the socket will increase the torque applied to a bolt, that is incorrect. In fact, the torque applied to the bolt will be somewhat less due to the torsional flexing of the extension but the difference is probably not worth worrying about. A universal joint adapter used at an angle will affect the value of torque applied depending on the angle at which it's used. Use with a 'crows foot' type attachment will affect the applied torque also. At least that's my understanding. Dean in Seattle 95 VFR750, 94 KLR650 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 18:41:49 +0000 From: Alex Jomarron Subject: (klr650) oil level: the final argument Is there ANY data of engine failures due to oil level that supports either of the arguments regarding just how much oil to put in the engine? Enough said................... Do what floats your boat, and lubricates YOUR bearings. This debate has more lives than Felix and Garfield combined!! Alex in Oak Park peering into the sight glass and hoping to hit 80k one day doing it! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 19:41:29 -0600 From: "Kurt Simpson" Subject: Re: (klr650) Valve clearance checking. >experience is this correct or should they be checked at 500? Yes I know >what the manual says but I am asking for personal experience along the >lines of, when you first checked your valves did they need adjustment or >were they still within tolerance? > Alan Henderson Alan, this has been around the list a couple of times and there is a definitive answer. Check your valves now. Most do not need adjustment but many have. I checked mine at 550 and 2 of the 4 needed different shims...several listers have had the same experience. One recent lister reported having 0 clearance in all 4 valves... Kurt A12 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 21:04:42 -0500 From: Alan Henderson Subject: Re: (klr650) Valve clearance checking. At 07:41 PM 10/12/98 -0600, you wrote: > >>experience is this correct or should they be checked at 500? Yes I know >>what the manual says but I am asking for personal experience along the >>lines of, when you first checked your valves did they need adjustment or >>were they still within tolerance? >> Alan Henderson > > >Alan, this has been around the list a couple of times and there is a definitive >answer. Check your valves now. Most do not need adjustment but many have. I checked >mine at 550 and 2 of the 4 needed different shims...several listers have had the same >experience. One recent lister reported having 0 clearance in all 4 valves... > >Kurt A12 > Thanks for the quick reply. I'll check them tomorrow night. Alan Henderson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 21:02:32 -0500 From: "Jim Sprecker" Subject: Re: (klr650) Valve clearance checking. I had 3 valves that needed adjusted at 500 miles on my 98. And I baby it. Jim. - ----------------------------------------------- > jsprecker@uswest.net < - ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 19:22:21 -0700 From: Rob Gendreau Subject: Re: (klr650) Panic stop, Crash Report Glad you're OK. A few tips, legalwise: First, document everything. Injuries, bike damage, conditions in the intersection, everything. Photos, even notes are helpful later. A trip to a doc might even be worthwhile, and of course keep records of estimates for repairs, etc. Second, don't automatically jump on any offer made by the guy's insurance company, assuming he has one. Make sure you've got all your loses covered. Third, don't get into a conversation about what you may or may not have done wrong with the adjuster. Remember: the other guy is trying to build a case against you. They are not your friends. This doesn't mean that they're out to gouge you, or that they'll even be unfair. Just realize what everyone's role is. Fourth, document everything. Loss prevention types like hard evidence -- bills, estimates, evaluations, etc. It makes it far easier to somebody to settle your claim if you have evidence, i.e. documentation. Things that got busted (hopefully things on the bike, not you) may not be apparent right now. For example, you mentioned your helmet was OK. But the helmet company will surely refuse to honor your warranty if they discover you had crashed your helmet: they usually advise getting a new one. So if it got any impact, I'd claim it as a loss. Have the bike thoroughly checked out; you're entitled to compensation for anything damaged. Good luck, Rob Rob Gendreau Oakland, California gendreau@ccnet.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 20:00:17 -0700 From: "Rob Clement" Subject: Re: (klr650) Oil level sense Ztib, you're certainly more "correct," and probably a little safer, doing it your (and Kawasaki's) way, and more power to you. But for the reasons I mentioned, I will continue to put in the three quarts, instead of the 2.64 quarts that 2.5 liters works out to be. And by the time I figure in the oil left in the quart plastic bottle and on the funnel, it's going to be something less than .36 quart "over," and I'll live with that (and no problems so far). I know it won't make sense to everybody, but it works great for me. Anyway, thanks for your point of view. Happy Riding! Rob C. - -----Original Message----- From: Ztib@aol.com To: rclement@thegrid.net ; Jim.Barthell@worldnet.att.net ; ajax@xmission.com ; klr650@lists.xmission.com Cc: KLR650@lists.xmission.com Date: Monday, October 12, 1998 7:32 AM Subject: (klr650) Oil level sense >In a message dated 98-10-12 09:12:27 EDT, rclement@thegrid.net writes: > ><< So to keep it simple, I just put in three quarts, and check the glass now > and then. Does that make sense? >> > >NOT TO ME. It does not make sense to ignore the manufacturerers >recommendations on something as critical as the oil volume for the engine. >They designed, built and tested the engine. They have examined failed >engines. They have more knowledge of this engine than all the combined >professional and amature mechanics that I know. If the volume recommended >conflicts with the sight glass level, then Kawasaki should be ashamed for >putting out shabby information, BUT as I consumer, I choose to operate with >the level within the sight glass (per the Kaw rep, my dealer, recommendation) > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 23:06:26 EDT From: Cloudhid@aol.com Subject: Re: (klr650) Torque wrench w/extension On 10/12/98, vfr750@gte.net wrote: snip >If your saying the addition of a 6" extension on the socket will increase >the torque applied to a bolt, that is incorrect. In fact, the torque >applied to the bolt will be somewhat less due to the torsional flexing of >the extension but the difference is probably not worth worrying about. A >universal joint adapter used at an angle will affect the value of torque >applied depending on the angle at which it's used. Use with a 'crows foot' >type attachment will affect the applied torque also. At least that's my >understanding. >Dean in Seattle 95 VFR750, 94 KLR650 I admit my example was an exaggeration. Adding a 6" extension *perpendicular* to the wrench will have little effect. But add 6" *parallel* to the wrench and my figures are correct. A picture is worth a thousand words. Look at the diagram at the bottom of this site. It also shows a formula for figuring the added torque. The greater value 'b' is, (i.e., the angle of the universal joint or *any* extension on the parallel), the higher the actual torque is over what's indicated on the dial. http://members.aol.com/cloudhid/torqxtnd.jpg Tortured Torque Tech Redondo Ron (who's trying to avoid circular logic) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 21:40:58 -0700 From: "Eric Rhoads" Subject: Re: (klr650) oil level ...Comment, NKLR - -->but rather having the moving parts beat the oil into a foam. Foamy oil >doesn't work very well in this type of system. >>>>>>> this is definitely the case....foamed-up oil doesn't pump worth a darn. However, the modern anti-foam agents are much superior than in years past, and although I can't give any good specs, I personally don't worry much about this....but then, I rarely overfill. Aren't we all missing the >point? The most important thing is to not let the oil level fall below the >min. line, as long as it is in between the lines you are all right. > Alan Henderson >>>>>>>>>>>. Yeah, you're alright as long as the pump isn't sucking air....but I think the main issue with going for a maximum oil charge is to keep the relative level of contaminates low. If you increase the sump capacity for a given engine you decrease relative levels of contaminates, help the oil maintain viscosity rating and possibly aid engine cooling. eric ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 22:19:08 -0700 From: "Darrel & Deanna" Subject: (klr650) (nklr) FLAT TRACK CHAMP NEWS FLASH: Scott Parker has secured his 9th Grand National Dirt Track championship at Del Mar. He went into yesterdays race only a few points behind Chris Carr. In the main event, the champ simply dominataed the rest of the field. He made the highly rutted track look like pavement while the others were all over the place. Parker says next season will be his last as a GN racer. It'll be interesting to see if he nails a tenth! Ride Safe, Darrel 98KLR650 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 22:24:42 -0700 From: "Rob Clement" Subject: Re: (klr650) oil level Alan, doesn't the SAE standard for SG (or similar) oils specify effective antifoam additives and properties? If foam were such a problem, could we grab air over jumps, etc., without causing problems (also, steep inclines, hard braking, and rapid accelleration would put the oil around the thrashing metal bits). Some "grace space" between the moving parts and the static oil level is engineered in, and I don't think a 1/3 quart or so extra oil will cause any real foaming problems, or any increase in oil temperature. Running low is the main concern for me. So one of the ways I keep my A12 from running low on oil between changes is to add a bit extra, since I don't think the sight glass is very reliable. And I'm pretty sure of getting through my 3-6k miles without running low. I do this in my Dodge Cummins diesel, too. The other way is via occasional glances (every third ride or so) at the glass (not aiming for any real precision, just to see some oil there above the minimum level). Works for me, and I don't have to open my engine up to abrasive contaminants by adding small amounts of oil between changes. I'm betting there's a fairly wide (1/2 quart, or so) operating range of oil level, before damage to the engine is caused, and that more of that tolerance is on the high side than on the low side. Does (like someone asked) anyone have any statistics on engine failures due to improper oil levels? Specifically, how many failed due to high, vs low, engine oil levels? Worth considering, if we could find out. I guess some things are harder on a bike than with a car, and it's not just driving in the cold and rain; it seems measuring the oil level is harder. Anyway, that's all I've got to say on this rather slippery subject. Happy Riding, and Thanks! Rob C. Someone asked how to get the bike level when checking the sight glass. Left-to-right orientation is fairly easy; just sort of balance the bike with one hand on one handgrip, while bending over to see the oil level glass. If the ground isn't grossly off-level, balance will orient it fairly well. But off-size tires, forks slid up the clamps, lowering kits, etc., add to the lack of precision the sight glass offers, as does front-back ground incline, if any. Add oil drain-down time since the engine was last run, the motor and oil temp, and the phase of the moon (why not?), and we pretty well have to give up on precision via the (much appreciated, really) sight glass, don't we? Even if Kawasaki got it right! So I don't fuss too much over the glass. But those who do have their reasons too, and that's great. I do wonder a bit about some people's oil level, how they calculate it or measure it, or whether they pay any attention at all to their oil level. But that's not my worry. Anyway, I don't worry much about foam, for the reasons implied above. Thanks for your thoughtful comments. Rob C. - -----Original Message----- From: Alan Henderson To: klr650@lists.xmission.com Date: Monday, October 12, 1998 3:05 PM Subject: (klr650) oil level >I noticed this "problem"? when I changed oil the first time. I just filled >it to the top of the sight glass then started it to soak up the oil filter >etc., let it sit awhile and topped off to the top of sight glass. I sure >wouldn't over fill the thing! It isn't the problem of generating more heat >but rather having the moving parts beat the oil into a foam. Foamy oil >doesn't work very well in this type of system. Aren't we all missing the >point? The most important thing is to not let the oil level fall below the >min. line, as long as it is in between the lines you are all right. > Alan Henderson > > > > ------------------------------ End of klr650-digest V1 #298 ****************************