From: owner-klr650-digest@lists.xmission.com (klr650-digest) To: klr650-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: klr650-digest V2 #1030 Reply-To: klr650 Sender: owner-klr650-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-klr650-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk klr650-digest Monday, October 18 1999 Volume 02 : Number 1030 RE: (klr650) 6000 mi service horror Re: (klr650) Wire search (klr650) CAM BEARING SURFACE, UH-OH Re: (klr650) 6000 mi service horror RE: (klr650) 6000 mi service horror Re: (klr650) 6000 mi service horror Re: (klr650) CAM BEARING SURFACE, UH-OH RE: (klr650) 6000 mi service horror ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 03:00:42 -0700 From: Michael Wehner Subject: RE: (klr650) 6000 mi service horror Jeff/Lisa: Hmmmm.....actually, I AM a rocket scientist. You are missing my point. I HAVE the manuals, and read the relevant sections. And, I have the best tools that money can buy. And, I can theoretically explain how an engine works. BUT, THAT IS NOT MECHANICS!!! It is a bummer to check my valves, find them ok, and end up with a valve replacement needed. All due to an apparent movement of the timing chain. Which was not described as being a possible source of trouble. In my business, we assume that left handed monkeys will work on the project. All procedures are laid out in Military Specifications. They describe in thorough detail how to do EVERYTHING. Follow the procedures, and you have success. We actually rate companies by their ability to follow the rules accurately (called QUALITY). If they fail to follow the procedures, we fire them. Unfortunately, mechanics is not like that. There is an assumed basic knowledge base. Which I, and probably others do not have. The whole intent of my post is to learn how to avoid the assholes who claim to be providing me a service, namely a dealer. I guess that I have my answer....if I can, find a course....otherwise, experiment, ask questions to the group and figure that I'll make mistakes. Thanks. End of subject. - -----Original Message----- From: Jeff & Lisa Walker [mailto:jlwalk@prodigy.net] Sent: Sunday, October 17, 1999 11:08 PM To: Michael Wehner; klr650@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: (klr650) 6000 mi service horror > Second question: Is there a good way to make this 2 left-handed, 10 thumbs > aerospace engineer/physicist into a decent mechanic? I want to know just > from hearing that I'm 'sucking air somewhere'. Are local college courses > reasonable? Suggestions? > You probably could take a course, community education or something, experience gained turning wrenches under supervision would be good. You call yourself an engineer??? As engineers, it is our job to know how things work, part of that is getting the hands on knowledge. (I'm going to be graduating with my B.S. in ME next year, and I'll have taken the Fundamentals of Engineering exam before then). Anyway, it is a simple and easy transition from the theoretical to the practical. Get the service manuals, Fred Hink at Arrowhead Motorsports has them, http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/index.html . Go over them cover to cover, and do a detailed systems analysis, going between bike, and book and back. From what I read, you did your own valves? Well all right then, you are doing just fine. As much as car and motorcycle dealers would like you believe, there is no magical sacred ritualistic mysticism in turning wrenches. It is simply a methodical, well thought out approach to solving a problem, and I'm sure that you are familiar with solving problems. As for coordination in actually handling the various wrenches, screwdrivers, and what not, that comes with experience. Just be careful and everything is cool. Don't mean to chastise you, but you need some confidence here. (I mean, I've run across some real dunces turning wrenches for dealers, it doesn't take a rocket scientist!) A few years, and you'll marvel at all the money you save by doing your own work and not paying someone else to do it, and will have the good vibes from knowing the job was done right, and not mucked up by some squid getting overpaid to mess up other peoples bikes/cars. Think about this; a dealer or other service shop only cares about getting you in and out, and getting your money. They don't actually care if the job was done correctly, its not their bike. Shoot, I've even seen places screw up simple things like oil changes (oil level was too high, oil drain plug was cross-threaded), and tire rotations (lug nuts that mount the spare tire were stripped by over zealous idiot with air wrench.). Anyway, I (almost always) do all my own work on my cars and bikes. That goes for around the house too, I never call a plumber or electrician, or any other contractor. I do all my re-modeling work and repairs myself. (This has been a huge learning process for me, lots of research on my part. I'm sure that a pro could do the job faster, but I need to learn, and I can't afford to pay one. As long as the necessary permits are purchased, and the work is inspected, then the State is happy, usually.) Jeff PS, a good quality set of tools is the best investment you can make. I almost exclusively get Sears Craftsman. If I ever get frustrated with a job, I sit down and clean and polish my wrenches and think about the problem. I'm soon happy and try again Visit the KLR650 archives at http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 Subscribe to Dual Sport News...write to dsneditor@softhome.net for info. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 04:00:18 PDT From: "CrazyDave" Subject: Re: (klr650) Wire search On Sun, 17 Oct 1999 08:51:00 -0700 (PDT), Juan Villarreal wrote: > Howdy folks... > > Can someone with the manual tell me the location > AND color of the wire that serves as the power > supply for the horn? I need it for the segment > that runs FROM THE POWER SOURCE TO THE HORN > SWITCH (as opposed to the segment that runs from > the switch to the horn itself). Thanks in > advance, and additional thanks to all who helped > out with my coolant change. > > Juan Villarreal, "The Happy Hooligan" > '97 KLR, "The Rock" > > > > > ===== > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > Visit the KLR650 archives at > http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 > Subscribe to Dual Sport News...write to dsneditor@softhome.net > for info. Bk/Y is the color in my manual, let me know it you want a scan of it CrazyDave ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Visit the KLR650 archives at http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 Subscribe to Dual Sport News...write to dsneditor@softhome.net for info. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:53:46 -0400 From: "Michael Campbell (EUS)" Subject: (klr650) CAM BEARING SURFACE, UH-OH Hi All, I was doing a valve check last evening for the first time on my '89 KLR650 (I haven't had it since '89, so haven't neglected the check). When I pulled the intake cam off, I noticed that the bearing surface on the right intake side was galled, pitted, scratched, corroded or some combination thereof. It looks like maybe the bike sat a long time (perhaps explains the 9000 miles on the odo...) and some sort of corrosion started on the bearing surface, which then got spun around when the bike was started. Is there anything I can do about this? It looks like just the head material is machined for the bearing surfaces, so no replacable bearings, right? I'm thinking I'll just try to smooth it out with scotch-brite and put it back together. I know that is severely less than ideal, but I'm guessing the correct alternative is quite costly... Thanks for any advice, Mike Campbell Visit the KLR650 archives at http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 Subscribe to Dual Sport News...write to dsneditor@softhome.net for info. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:23:25 -0600 From: "Kurt Simpson" Subject: Re: (klr650) 6000 mi service horror > You are missing my point. I HAVE the manuals, and read the relevant > sections. And, I have the best tools that money can buy. And, I can > theoretically explain how an engine works. BUT, THAT IS NOT MECHANICS!!! > It is a bummer to check my valves, find them ok, and end up with a valve > replacement needed. All due to an apparent movement of the timing chain. > Which was not described as being a possible source of trouble. Michael, reread the above two paragraphs...they are inconsistent...and I think that is what Carlos and Jeff are trying to get at. To adjust the valves without thinking through (theoretically) what they do and how they function is the mistake. In other words, it appears that you didn't think through what the timing chain "times"...i.e. the valves...accordingly, any random movement of the timing chain relative to the camshafts which function to open and close the valves in time with the movement of the piston is going to cause problems because you've changed the valve timing. Furthermore, the manuals and the advice on the website go to great lengths explaining that in order to check the valve clearances the camshaft notches and the timing mark on the crank "have to be in align" to take part of the system apart and then move it is changing the timing. With no desire to offend I don't think the problem is on the mechanic side it is on the part of your engineering. Is it possible that your background in rocket engines doesn't adequately introduce you to the way a reciprocating engine works? This is where the internet fails, I don't mean this harshly, more like a couple of friends trying to figure out why technology isn't working well like in Pirsig's book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance...I'm having the same problem right now in trying to figure out why the instructions on an airbox kit tell me to drill out a "bleed jet" on the carb. I have two choices, I can just go ahead and drill or I can get more information as to why I'm being asked to do what I am. In the last case I might discover that it is optional, or that I can buy a jet at the new size. In either case I'm stuck because the instructions assume that I have a #55 drill bit at home (not) and Home Depot has nothing less than 1/16". So, now I'm convinced that the manufacturer is stuck in a paradigm warp. They want to charge $200 for the kit and require a $2 #55 bit but end up causing the end user to drive around finding something not part of the everyday kit. Why not charge $202 and put the bit in the kit? Pirsig's book might be of interest to you...he has a great section on "stuckness". Kurt Visit the KLR650 archives at http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 Subscribe to Dual Sport News...write to dsneditor@softhome.net for info. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:58:38 -0400 From: Mark Subject: RE: (klr650) 6000 mi service horror At 3:00 AM -0700 10/18/99, Michael Wehner wrote: >Hmmmm.....actually, I AM a rocket scientist. You're not one of those guys responsible for the burned-up $125,000,000.00 Mars probe are ya? (giggle) >I guess that I have my answer....if I can, find a course.... Actually, or county Vo-Tech program has night classes for adults. They offer basic automotive and advanced automotive courses. The tuition is remarkably cheap too (about $200 a semester)! Classes meet two or three nights a week for three hours for about 15 weeks. I was thinking about registering for a welding class. Mark B2 A2 Visit the KLR650 archives at http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 Subscribe to Dual Sport News...write to dsneditor@softhome.net for info. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:44:43 -0600 From: "Fred Hink" Subject: Re: (klr650) 6000 mi service horror - ----- Original Message ----- From: Kurt Simpson To: Michael Wehner ; ; Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 7:23 AM Subject: Re: (klr650) 6000 mi service horror > > You are missing my point. I HAVE the manuals, and read the relevant > > sections. And, I have the best tools that money can buy. And, I can > > theoretically explain how an engine works. BUT, THAT IS NOT >> MECHANICS!!! > Pirsig's book might be of interest to you...he has a great section on > "stuckness". > > Kurt And this is the difference between a professional and "shadetree" mechanic. If the guy in his backyard gets stuck he justs waists some time. The professional is out of his living money when he gets stuck. So he is the one that has to come up with a solution or answer on a timely basis and should have the way to figure out the answers. Experience is the best teacher and if that fails then the service manuals are next in line. Working in a larger repair shop with other mechanics, there is usually someone there who has come across just about every conceivable problem. Working in my shop as an independent, I have learned where I can go for answers to problems I have no answers for. It usually isn't the internet but to a service manual then to another mechanic. Motorcycle shops are reluctant to give out free technicle information because it costs them time to look up the answers to your questions and also takes away from them when you do the repairs yourself with his free information. Most all mechanics are paid either by the hour or on a commission. Hope you understand why mechanics are not so friendly when it comes to looking up details for you. They don't see that the service side of the motorcycle industry is tied to the parts side of the business. This is why I try to answer folks questions with a friendly manner, knowing that they can trust me and sooner or latter will need to buy some parts from me. I would feel more inclined to help someone that has put all his effort into solving a problem and come to me as a last resort. If I felt like I was being used like a walking encyclopedia, then I would feel less likely to help out. Solving problems can be fun if you have the time, if not then you should pay someone else to do it for you. Fred (horsesense is my business) :<) Visit the KLR650 archives at http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 Subscribe to Dual Sport News...write to dsneditor@softhome.net for info. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:52:49 -0600 From: "Fred Hink" Subject: Re: (klr650) CAM BEARING SURFACE, UH-OH - ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Campbell (EUS) To: 'KLR LIST' Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 6:53 AM Subject: (klr650) CAM BEARING SURFACE, UH-OH > Hi All, > I was doing a valve check last evening for the first time on my '89 KLR650 > (I haven't had it since '89, so haven't neglected the check). When I pulled > the intake cam off, I noticed that the bearing surface on the right intake > side was galled, pitted, scratched, corroded or some combination thereof. > It looks like maybe the bike sat a long time (perhaps explains the 9000 > miles on the odo...) and some sort of corrosion started on the bearing > surface, which then got spun around when the bike was started. > > Is there anything I can do about this? It looks like just the head material > is machined for the bearing surfaces, so no replacable bearings, right? I'm > thinking I'll just try to smooth it out with scotch-brite and put it back > together. I know that is severely less than ideal, but I'm guessing the > correct alternative is quite costly... > > Thanks for any advice, > Mike Campbell Hi Mike, Sounds like your engine was run out or low on oil. The gauled bearing surfaces on the cam bearings are caused from heat. When you run low on oil, the last to get oiled are these bearings and are the first to show signs of excess heat. There isn't much you can do now. If your cams are tight in the bearings (not loose) then I would just drive it and keep an ear out to listen if the top end makes any unusual noises (scraping, rattling, ticking) soon. You can clean up the bearing surfaces but the damage has already been done. I haven't heard of anyone putting in new bearing surfaces in a KLR head but I bet it could be done. Anything can be done if you have enough money. Fred Visit the KLR650 archives at http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 Subscribe to Dual Sport News...write to dsneditor@softhome.net for info. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:57:53 -0600 From: Bogdan Swider Subject: RE: (klr650) 6000 mi service horror As a semi-competent wrench whose had his share of screw-ups I'd be very interested to learn what actually happened with your valve train. WHY did the chain slip?? Like you stated from the start I also don't see the system as being that damn delicate. Anybody know or care to share an experience/theory/guess ?? Bogdan, Curious in Colorado Well, I just finished up getting my bike through it's 6000 mile service at the dealers. (The valve repair (all 4 were trashed) ended up being covered by warrantee, if some of you recall my initial troubles). Visit the KLR650 archives at http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 Subscribe to Dual Sport News...write to dsneditor@softhome.net for info. ------------------------------ End of klr650-digest V2 #1030 *****************************