From: owner-ngamers-digest@lists.xmission.com (ngamers-digest) To: ngamers-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: ngamers-digest V1 #59 Reply-To: ngamers Sender: owner-ngamers-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-ngamers-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk ngamers-digest Friday, January 3 2003 Volume 01 : Number 059 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 23:53:18 -0600 From: "Geoff Taylor" Subject: RE: [NG] Wavebird > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-NGamers@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner- > NGamers@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Dexter S. > Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 10:38 PM > To: ngamers@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: [NG] Wavebird > > > > > But isn't the Wavebird just a wireless controller? It certainly isn't > the > > first. You make it sound like it has innovated gaming by leaps and > bounds > > compared to other wireless controllers... but isn't it just the same > thing? > > > > Wes > > It's really the first reliable wireless controller and the first to use > blue > tooth as the basis of its wireless feature. Basically, Nintendo, known > for its > conservatism and all that, is ahead of the curve of even most PC > peripheral > makers by making a wireless input unit. Nope, it's not Blue Tooth. Geoff [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 01:07:38 -0500 From: "Pythagoras" Subject: Re: [NG] Playstation 2 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_00C9_01C2B2C4.8210ABE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Don=20 To: NGamers@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 12:43 PM Subject: RE: [NG] Playstation 2 Exactly. How can the PS2 be the "best console ever" it hasn't even = produced anything revolutionary like the original PS did or the gameboy = or the SNES. I dunno, I wouldn't consider it to have the same impact as = these other consoles. =20 - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ----- - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ----- Also, the PS2 has yet to reach the end of its life cycle, so the book is = still being written. But you cannot deny the impact of the PS2 hype = machine (still waiting for breizer, or whatever they're called, curves) = and the 3-D Grand Theft Auto games. Trey Treytable@earthlink.net http://tinyurl.com/3kb5 "Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils=20 is still choosing evil." - Jerry Garcia (1942-1995) - ------=_NextPart_000_00C9_01C2B2C4.8210ABE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Don =
Sent: Wednesday, January 01, = 2003 12:43=20 PM
Subject: RE: [NG] Playstation = 2

Exactly.  How can the PS2 be the = =93best console=20 ever=94 it hasn=92t even produced anything revolutionary like the = original PS did=20 or the gameboy or the SNES.  I dunno, I wouldn=92t consider it to have the same = impact as these=20 other consoles.

 

 
Also, the PS2 has yet = to reach the=20 end of its life cycle, so the book is still being written. But you = cannot deny=20 the impact of the PS2 hype machine (still waiting for breizer, or = whatever=20 they're called, curves) and the 3-D Grand Theft Auto games.
 
Trey
Treytable@earthlink.net
http://tinyurl.com/3kb5
"Constant= ly=20 choosing the lesser of two evils
 is still choosing evil." - = Jerry=20 Garcia (1942=961995)
- ------=_NextPart_000_00C9_01C2B2C4.8210ABE0-- [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 01:11:14 -0500 From: "Pythagoras" Subject: Re: [NG] PS2 and "best gaming machine ever" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_00D4_01C2B2C5.02FA8870 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Don=20 To: ngamers@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 3:34 PM Subject: [NG] PS2 and "best gaming machine ever" If it goes by play time then that determines how good a gaming system = is then the PC wins hands down for me by 10 country miles. I remember logging an average of 96 hours a month playing starcraft back a few years ago and I'm still playing the game to date. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ----- The PC? And is it the same PC you had a few years ago that you use now? = Same components? Same monitor? The PC is in a class of its own, I'm to = tired to elaborate. Trey Treytable@earthlink.net http://tinyurl.com/3kb5 "They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton,=20 they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also=20 laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan (1934 - 1996) - ------=_NextPart_000_00D4_01C2B2C5.02FA8870 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Don =
Sent: Wednesday, January 01, = 2003 3:34=20 PM
Subject: [NG] PS2 and "best = gaming=20 machine ever"

If it goes by play time then that determines how good a = gaming=20 system is
then the PC wins hands down for me by 10 country = miles.  I=20 remember
logging an average of 96 hours a month playing starcraft = back a=20 few
years ago and I'm still playing the game to date.
 
The PC? And is it the same PC you had a few years ago that you use = now?=20 Same components? Same monitor? The PC is in a class of its own, I'm to = tired to=20 elaborate.
 
Trey
Treytable@earthlink.net
http://tinyurl.com/3kb5
"They = laughed at=20 Columbus, they laughed at Fulton,
 they laughed at the Wright = brothers.=20 But they also
 laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan (1934 - = 1996)
 
 
- ------=_NextPart_000_00D4_01C2B2C5.02FA8870-- [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 01:15:53 -0500 From: "Pythagoras" Subject: Re: [NG] Playstation 2 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_00E8_01C2B2C5.A9444400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jedcross2@aol.com=20 To: NGamers@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [NG] Playstation 2 In a message dated 1/2/03 2:30:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, = rlsharer@yahoo.com writes:=20 "Best ever" (for you) or any individual is one=20 thing...but to say it's the best console ever made is=20 kinda myopic. Especially when the primary reason is=20 because you're hooked on a few games. As the=20 gentleman said, show me the innovation!=20 RS Dual Shock 2.=20 -Jed=20 - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ----- DVD-ROM for a console game. But the Dual Shock 2 isn't innovative at all. in the original it was an SNES pad with two extra shoulder buttons. the Analog sticks were a copy (basically) of Nintendo's idea for the = N64.=20 the two sticks on the DS2 are hardly innovative since it's the same as = the Dual Shock and Dual Analog. Analog face and shoulder buttons? Namco did that in 1995 with the = NeGcon, for the PlayStation. There is nothing innovative about the Dual = Shock 2 - ------=_NextPart_000_00E8_01C2B2C5.A9444400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Jedcross2@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, January 02, = 2003 3:18=20 PM
Subject: Re: [NG] Playstation = 2

In a = message dated=20 1/2/03 2:30:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, rlsharer@yahoo.com writes: =


"Best ever" (for you) or any individual is one =
thing...but=20 to say it's the best console ever made is
kinda myopic. =  Especially=20 when the primary reason is
because you're hooked on a few games. =  As the
gentleman said, show me the innovation!=20

RS


Dual Shock 2. =

-Jed=20


 
DVD-ROM for a console = game.
 
But the Dual Shock 2 isn't innovative = at=20 all.
 
in the original it was an SNES pad with = two extra=20 shoulder buttons.
 
the Analog sticks were a copy = (basically) of=20 Nintendo's idea for the N64.
 
the two sticks on the DS2 are hardly = innovative=20 since it's the same as the Dual Shock and Dual Analog.
 
Analog face and shoulder buttons? Namco = did that in=20 1995 with the NeGcon, for the PlayStation. There is nothing innovative = about the=20 Dual Shock 2
 
 
- ------=_NextPart_000_00E8_01C2B2C5.A9444400-- [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 01:18:08 -0500 From: "Pythagoras" Subject: Re: [NG] Playstation 2 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_00F7_01C2B2C5.F9D5B930 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dexter S.=20 To: ngamers@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 6:05 PM Subject: Re: [NG] Playstation 2 > > > You don't think the Wavebird is better? > > RS Wavebird is more innovative. Dual Shock was the better design.. it is the SNES controller of the era, and DS 2 is really just an = evolutionary thing, that I don't even consider it as a separate controller. Sony is basically continuing with the same basic design. Next generation may see wireless controllers as standard, and everyone will of course downplay Wavebird's contribution and point to a number = of failed, crappy third party attempts in the last few generations to justify it. Dexter - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ----- i love the Wavebird. it's great.=20 then again, if Nintendo gave us 9 foot cords like with the XBOX, we = wouldnt knead the Birdy Trey Treytable@earthlink.net http://tinyurl.com/3kb5 "Constantly choosing tphe lesser of two evils=20 is still choosing evil." - Jerry Garcia (1942-19957) - ------=_NextPart_000_00F7_01C2B2C5.F9D5B930 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dexter = S.
Sent: Thursday, January 02, = 2003 6:05=20 PM
Subject: Re: [NG] Playstation = 2

>
>
> You don't think the Wavebird is=20 better?
>
> RS

Wavebird is more innovative.  = Dual=20 Shock was the better design.. it is
the SNES controller of the era, = and DS=20 2 is really just an evolutionary
thing, that I don't even consider = it as a=20 separate controller. Sony is
basically continuing with the same = basic=20 design.

Next generation may see wireless controllers as = standard, and=20 everyone
will of course downplay Wavebird's contribution and point = to a=20 number of
failed, crappy third party attempts in the last few = generations=20 to
justify it.

Dexter
 
i love the Wavebird. it's great. =
 
then again, if Nintendo gave us 9 foot = cords like=20 with the XBOX, we wouldnt knead the Birdy
 
Trey
Treytable@earthlink.net
http://tinyurl.com/3kb5
"Constant= ly=20 choosing tphe lesser of two evils
 is still choosing evil." - = Jerry=20 Garcia (1942=9619957)
- ------=_NextPart_000_00F7_01C2B2C5.F9D5B930-- [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 01:19:55 -0500 From: "Pythagoras" Subject: Re: [NG] Wavebird This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0100_01C2B2C6.393AF8B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Wez=20 To: NGamers@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 10:36 PM Subject: Re: [NG] Wavebird > > Next generation may see wireless controllers as standard, and = everyone > will of course downplay Wavebird's contribution and point to a = number of > failed, crappy third party attempts in the last few generations to > justify it. > > Dexter But isn't the Wavebird just a wireless controller? It certainly isn't = the first. You make it sound like it has innovated gaming by leaps and = bounds compared to other wireless controllers... but isn't it just the same = thing? Wes - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ----- It uses RF technology instead out IR, i believe. you can use a wavebird = in another room and it's still instantaneous control - ------=_NextPart_000_0100_01C2B2C6.393AF8B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Wez =
Sent: Thursday, January 02, = 2003 10:36=20 PM
Subject: Re: [NG] = Wavebird

>
> Next generation may see wireless = controllers as=20 standard, and everyone
> will of course downplay Wavebird's = contribution=20 and point to a number of
> failed, crappy third party attempts = in the=20 last few generations to
> justify it.
>
> = Dexter

But=20 isn't the Wavebird just a wireless controller?  It certainly = isn't=20 the
first.  You make it sound like it has innovated gaming by = leaps=20 and bounds
compared to other wireless controllers... but isn't it = just the=20 same thing?

Wes

 
It uses RF technology instead out IR, i = believe.=20 you can use a wavebird in another room and it's still instantaneous=20 control
- ------=_NextPart_000_0100_01C2B2C6.393AF8B0-- [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 00:20:36 -0600 From: Thraxen Subject: Re: [NG] Playstation 2 > You don't think the Wavebird is better? > > RS Heck no...the GC controller is average to begin with. The Wavebird is basically just a wireless GC controller with no rumble. Gain a feature and lose a feature. Still average, IMO. Stryder [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 00:24:41 -0600 From: Thraxen Subject: Re: [NG] Playstation 2 > Next generation may see wireless controllers as standard, and everyone > will of course downplay Wavebird's contribution and point to a number of > failed, crappy third party attempts in the last few generations to > justify it. > > Dexter Wavebird's contribution? It's nothing new. Until a console manufacture makes a rechargeable wireless controller, preferably with rumble, then all wireless controllers are status quo...even the Wavebird. Who the hell cares that you can go 90 feet away....that's useless. I want built-in rechargeable batteries in a wireless controller that retains all the features of the wired versions...that's something new. Wavebird...not new...at all. Stryder [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 23:25:20 -0700 From: "Gregory A. Swarthout" Subject: Re: [NG] Playstation 2 Thraxen wrote: >>You don't think the Wavebird is better? >> >>RS > > > Heck no...the GC controller is average to begin with. The Wavebird is > basically just a wireless GC controller with no rumble. Gain a feature and > lose a feature. Still average, IMO. I never use anything but my Wavebird. Rumble is a small price to pay for the huge convenience of wireless. I have four of the standard controllers and they are used by everyone else. Heck, even my nephews both got Wavebirds before they ever bought a single game for their cube (they borrow my games). I pity those still tied to cords. Greg [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 23:28:44 -0700 From: "Gregory A. Swarthout" Subject: Re: [NG] Playstation 2 Thraxen wrote: > > I want built-in rechargeable batteries in a wireless controller A single point of failure? Bad design. Wavebird rocks harder than any rumble controller. Sounds like sour grapes over the Ex-box not having something comparable. Greg [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 22:41:20 -0800 From: "Dexter S." Subject: Re: [NG] Wavebird > > Nope, it's not Blue Tooth. > > Geoff Here i's the last Wavebird related press releave I've read: "Japanese Mitsubishi Materials announced this morning that Nintendo has opted to adopt its AHD Series 2.4GHz wireless ceramic chip antenna for the company's wireless Wave Bird controller. The move will enable Nintendo's Wave Bird controllers, which currently operate accurately from a distance of up to 34 feet away, even more accuracy from far greater distances. Mitsubishi has been developing this type of antenna for various products " If it's not blue tooth, then at least the technology behind it may be related. Dexter [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 00:35:14 -0600 From: Thraxen Subject: Re: [NG] Wavebird > It's really the first reliable wireless controller and the first to use blue > tooth as the basis of its wireless feature. I thought the Wavebird was a 900 MHz RF device...whereas Bluetooth operates at 2.45 GHz. > conservatism and all that, is ahead of the curve of even most PC peripheral > makers by making a wireless input unit. Not really, it's the equivalent of a wireless mouse. Lots of those around. Stryder [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 22:50:06 -0800 From: "Dexter S." Subject: Re: [NG] Wavebird > > Not really, it's the equivalent of a wireless mouse. Lots of those around. > > Stryder What's the difference between blue tooth and the technology behind Wavebird? The Mitsubishi press release which I didn't copy in its entirity, talks about using the same ceramic 2.4 ghz ceramic chip antennae going into Wavebird v1.1 for us with "other bluetooth enabled devices". There must be significant similarities to both. And I do recall Bluetooth being mentioned when wavebird was first revealed in 2000, along with GC. Enlighten me. Dexter [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 00:53:25 -0600 From: Thraxen Subject: Re: [NG] Playstation 2 > I never use anything but my Wavebird. Rumble is a small price to pay for > the huge convenience of wireless. I have four of the standard controllers > and they are used by everyone else. Heck, even my nephews both got Wavebirds > before they ever bought a single game for their cube (they borrow my games). I > pity those still tied to cords. > > Greg Sorry, I'll stick with cords, keep the rumble, and skip the batteries...and even though the Wavebird is more reliable than previous wireless controllers, cords still win in the reliability department. I've still read quit a few people saying they get the occasional drop in the signal. My couch is only 5-6 feet from my TV and I generally keep all my controllers, except one, rolled up in storage. I only take them out when friends are over (in which case the GC gets no play anyway). Heck, I only own one GC controller anyway. Wireless is useless for me. Also, the rumble did not have to be dropped. Maybe if they had retained all the features I might have picked one up. But I would also prefer some sort of rechargeable batteries built in. Until someone gets it right, I'm not buying. Stryder [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 01:00:38 -0600 From: Thraxen Subject: Re: [NG] Playstation 2 > A single point of failure? Bad design. Wavebird rocks harder > than any rumble controller. Sounds like sour grapes over the > Ex-box not having something comparable. > > Greg Dude, grow up. I have both systems. If I really wanted wireless that badly I would pick up the cordless Logitech controller (w/ rumble). But I guess I don't get the "rocks hard" hard-on for wireless. Stryder [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 01:02:39 -0600 From: Thraxen Subject: Re: [NG] Wavebird > "Japanese Mitsubishi Materials announced this morning that Nintendo has > opted to adopt its AHD Series 2.4GHz wireless ceramic chip antenna for the > company's wireless Wave Bird controller. > > The move will enable Nintendo's Wave Bird controllers, which currently > operate accurately from a distance of up to 34 feet away, even more accuracy > from far greater distances. So the current ones out are 900MHz, but soon they will be 2.4 GHz....maybe I'll wait and get one of those, then I can rock even harder than Geoff. Stryder [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 01:05:52 -0600 From: Thraxen Subject: Re: [NG] Wavebird > What's the difference between blue tooth and the technology behind Wavebird? > > The Mitsubishi press release which I didn't copy in its entirity, talks about > using the same ceramic 2.4 ghz ceramic chip antennae going into Wavebird v1.1 > for us with "other bluetooth enabled devices". > > There must be significant similarities to both. And I do recall Bluetooth > being mentioned when wavebird was first revealed in 2000, along with GC. > > Enlighten me. Maybe it is, don't know. That's the first time I've seem Bluetooth and Wave mentioned at the same time. IGN doesn't mention anything about Bluetooth in their Wavebird p/reviews. Anyway, I think the current batch is 900 MHz. So maybe it's some scaled down version of Bluetooth that is soon to be upgraded to 2.4 GHz? Stryder [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 23:28:10 -0800 From: "Dexter S." Subject: Re: [NG] Wavebird > > Maybe it is, don't know. That's the first time I've seem Bluetooth and Wave > mentioned at the same time. IGN doesn't mention anything about Bluetooth in > their Wavebird p/reviews. Anyway, I think the current batch is 900 MHz. So > maybe it's some scaled down version of Bluetooth that is soon to be upgraded > to 2.4 GHz? > > Stryder That makes sense. Dexter [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 03:00:50 -0600 From: Don Subject: RE: [NG] Playstation 2 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --Boundary_(ID_kx6wELsuo+vwgePa4B7XvA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT What about it? - -----Original Message----- From: owner-NGamers@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-NGamers@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Jedcross2@aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 2:19 PM To: NGamers@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: [NG] Playstation 2 Dual Shock 2. - -Jed "According to my Calculations, when this baby hits 88 Miles per hour, we're gonna see some serious shit" ~Doc Brown, Back to the Future - --Boundary_(ID_kx6wELsuo+vwgePa4B7XvA) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

What about it?

 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-NGamers@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-NGamers@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Jedcross2@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 2:19 PM
To: NGamers@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: [NG] Playstation 2



Dual Shock 2.

- -Jed


"According to my Calculations, when this baby hits 88 Miles per hour, we're gonna see some serious shit"
~Doc Brown, Back to the Future

- --Boundary_(ID_kx6wELsuo+vwgePa4B7XvA)-- [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ End of ngamers-digest V1 #59 ****************************