From: owner-NGamers-digest@lists.xmission.com (NGamers-digest) To: ngamers-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: NGamers-digest V1 #1732 Reply-To: NGamers-digest Sender: owner-NGamers-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-NGamers-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk NGamers-digest Tuesday, November 20 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1732 Re: [NG] EGM thing Re: [NG] Waverace is HARD Re: [NG] The situation as it is Re: [NG] The situation as it is Re: [NG] The situation as it is Re: [NG] The situation as it is Re: [NG] The situation as it is Re: [NG] The situation as it is Re: [NG] The situation as it is Re: [NG] The situation as it is Re: [NG] HD Re: [NG] The situation as it is Re: [NG] HD ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 21:12:29 EST From: Jedcross2@aol.com Subject: Re: [NG] EGM thing - --part1_168.4447543.292c678d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/20/01 7:17:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, sanrio@velocity.net writes: > Hmm. So far I found the addresses of only five people from this list on that > EGM thing. None of you have credit card numbers though. Well, at least the > five will get a nice Christmas card this year. (No there won't be money in > it.) > > Anyway, I won the lottery. Seriously. I won $40 on a $2 ticket. I was going > to buy Tennis 2K2 (DC) and that would be it, but I had the good fortune to > go to my most favorite game shop, Endless Entertainment. I walked out with > the Chrono Trigger Original Soundtrack and even cooler, a brand new > un-opened NiGHTS box set. You know, the NiGHTS & 3-D Controller combo, for > only $20. And it was brand new, the game is still in its original shrink > wrap and the controller was still in its bag and everything was there. It's > cool that I got a brand spanking new 3-D Controller, so now I can play > Daytona USA CCE as it was meant to be, since my old 3-D controller was a > piece of crap. They also had the CD - Final Fantasy IX Piano. I just love > my copy of Final Fantasy VIII Piano, I have to find some money to get FFIX > Piano. Oh well, maybe another lottery ticket? > > ** Sanrio ** > Hmmm, buy another lotto ticket and try and win a few million=) - -Jed ______________________________________________________________ Q: Why are there bugs in most computers? A: They are attracted by the cookies and go in looking for a byte to eat. - --part1_168.4447543.292c678d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/20/01 7:17:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, sanrio@velocity.net writes:


Hmm. So far I found the addresses of only five people from this list on that EGM thing. None of you have credit card numbers though. Well, at least the five will get a nice Christmas card this year. (No there won't be money in it.)

Anyway, I won the lottery. Seriously. I won $40 on a $2 ticket. I was going to buy Tennis 2K2 (DC) and that would be it, but I had the good fortune to go to my most favorite game shop, Endless Entertainment. I walked out with the Chrono Trigger Original Soundtrack and even cooler, a brand new un-opened NiGHTS box set. You know, the NiGHTS & 3-D Controller combo, for only $20. And it was brand new, the game is still in its original shrink wrap and the controller was still in its bag and everything was there. It's cool that I got a brand spanking new 3-D Controller, so now I can play Daytona USA CCE as it was meant to be, since my old 3-D controller was a piece of crap. They also had the CD - Final Fantasy IX Piano. I just love my copy of Final Fantasy VIII Piano, I have to find some money to get FFIX Piano. Oh well, maybe another lottery ticket?

** Sanrio **




Hmmm, buy another lotto ticket and try and win a few million=)

-Jed
______________________________________________________________
Q: Why are there bugs in most computers?

A: They are attracted by the cookies and go in looking for a byte to eat.


- --part1_168.4447543.292c678d_boundary-- [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 21:13:06 EST From: Jedcross2@aol.com Subject: Re: [NG] Waverace is HARD - --part1_84.1eca3642.292c67b2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/20/01 5:26:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, mccoyjr@Glue.umd.edu writes: > The learning curve for the turns around the buoys is high. Anybody having > similar difficulties? > > > lloyd Don't you live in Australia? - -Jed ______________________________________________________________ Q: Why are there bugs in most computers? A: They are attracted by the cookies and go in looking for a byte to eat. - --part1_84.1eca3642.292c67b2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/20/01 5:26:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, mccoyjr@Glue.umd.edu writes:


The learning curve for the turns around the buoys is high.  Anybody having
similar difficulties?


lloyd

Don't you live in Australia?

-Jed
______________________________________________________________
Q: Why are there bugs in most computers?

A: They are attracted by the cookies and go in looking for a byte to eat.


- --part1_84.1eca3642.292c67b2_boundary-- [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 20:40:33 -0600 From: Thraxen Subject: Re: [NG] The situation as it is > I agree with the modem, but I vote no on the hard drive. > > RS Why no on a HD? It allow for so many possibilities... Stryder [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 20:42:56 -0600 From: Thraxen Subject: Re: [NG] The situation as it is > Out of curiosity, does the hard drive eliminate the need for memory cards? Yes, for the most part. You can saves hundreds of games on the HD. The only time you currently need a memory card is to transfer saves from one XBOX to another. But even that should less of an issue when the online network starts up. Stryder [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 21:51:09 EST From: Jedcross2@aol.com Subject: Re: [NG] The situation as it is - --part1_42.1db924c8.292c709d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/20/01 9:44:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, thraxen@ipa.net writes: > > > I agree with the modem, but I vote no on the hard drive. > > > > RS > > Why no on a HD? It allow for so many possibilities... > > No need to ask him, it's Rick... - -Jed ______________________________________________________________ Q: Why are there bugs in most computers? A: They are attracted by the cookies and go in looking for a byte to eat. - --part1_42.1db924c8.292c709d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/20/01 9:44:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, thraxen@ipa.net writes:



> I agree with the modem, but I vote no on the hard drive.
>
> RS

Why no on a HD?  It allow for so many possibilities...

Stryder



No need to ask him, it's Rick...
-Jed
______________________________________________________________
Q: Why are there bugs in most computers?

A: They are attracted by the cookies and go in looking for a byte to eat.


- --part1_42.1db924c8.292c709d_boundary-- [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 20:55:19 -0600 From: Rick Sharer Subject: Re: [NG] The situation as it is Thraxen wrote: > > I agree with the modem, but I vote no on the hard drive. > > > > RS > > Why no on a HD? It allow for so many possibilities... I'm not against a resident SAVE area, but a hard drive? Coupled with a modem there's too much potential for the Big Nasty Virus from the HACKERS out there...you know, the guys who grab credit card information? :) RS _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 21:54:40 EST From: Jedcross2@aol.com Subject: Re: [NG] The situation as it is - --part1_158.45cc2cc.292c7170_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/20/01 9:53:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, rlsharer@yahoo.com writes: > I'm not against a resident SAVE area, but a hard drive? Coupled with a > modem there's too much potential for the Big Nasty Virus from the > HACKERS out there...you know, the guys who grab credit card > information? :) > > RS It be neat if you could have an online account and store your saves there don't you agree rick? Shouldn't we be only talkig about Nintendo related stuff though? - -jed ______________________________________________________________ Q: Why are there bugs in most computers? A: They are attracted by the cookies and go in looking for a byte to eat. - --part1_158.45cc2cc.292c7170_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/20/01 9:53:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, rlsharer@yahoo.com writes:


I'm not against a resident SAVE area, but a hard drive?  Coupled with a
modem there's too much potential for the Big Nasty Virus from the
HACKERS out there...you know, the guys who grab credit card
information?  :)

RS

It be neat if you could have an online account and store your saves there don't you agree rick? Shouldn't we be only talkig about Nintendo related stuff though?

-jed
______________________________________________________________
Q: Why are there bugs in most computers?

A: They are attracted by the cookies and go in looking for a byte to eat.


- --part1_158.45cc2cc.292c7170_boundary-- [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 20:58:44 -0600 From: Thraxen Subject: Re: [NG] The situation as it is > I'm not against a resident SAVE area, but a hard drive? Coupled with a > modem there's too much potential for the Big Nasty Virus from the > HACKERS out there...you know, the guys who grab credit card > information? :) > > RS How is a virus going to do anything? The XBOX doesn't boot up off the HD like a PC does nor does it install any games. Also, just how many viruses do you get on your PC? I've had maybe 2 or 3 in the 10 or so years I've owned some sort of PC....plus take into account the hundreds of hours I've spent online with my PC e-mailing, web surfing, and downloading. I'd only be online with a console playing games. Hell, I've spent literally hundreds of hours online with PC games and have yet to get any sort of virus while playing a game. Think about it. A hacker would have to figure out a way to access your machine while your were online playing a game. I'm not even sure if that's possible. Consoles are much easier to protect against that sort of stuff. Stryder [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 22:03:15 EST From: Jedcross2@aol.com Subject: Re: [NG] The situation as it is - --part1_3c.14c90cca.292c7373_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/20/01 10:01:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, thraxen@ipa.net writes: > Think about it. A hacker would have to figure out a way to access your > machine while your were online playing a game. I'm not even sure if that's > possible. Consoles are much easier to protect against that sort of stuff. > > Stryder True. What is there to hack? You simply have game saves... - -Jed ______________________________________________________________ Q: Why are there bugs in most computers? A: They are attracted by the cookies and go in looking for a byte to eat. - --part1_3c.14c90cca.292c7373_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/20/01 10:01:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, thraxen@ipa.net writes:


Think about it.  A hacker would have to figure out a way to access your
machine while your were online playing a game.  I'm not even sure if that's
possible.  Consoles are much easier to protect against that sort of stuff.

Stryder

True. What is there to hack? You simply have game saves...

-Jed
______________________________________________________________
Q: Why are there bugs in most computers?

A: They are attracted by the cookies and go in looking for a byte to eat.


- --part1_3c.14c90cca.292c7373_boundary-- [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 21:36:42 -0600 From: Don Fentie Subject: Re: [NG] The situation as it is - --Boundary_(ID_eJ//wWoia7+GvBfjdk1cmQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I thought that it wasn't possible for consoles to get viruses because they don't have any sort of mainframe with executable files and such. I dunno, anyone out there know anything about viruses (peferably of the computer nature and not biological). Jedcross2@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/20/01 9:53:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, > rlsharer@yahoo.com writes: > > > >> I'm not against a resident SAVE area, but a hard drive? Coupled >> with a >> modem there's too much potential for the Big Nasty Virus from the >> HACKERS out there...you know, the guys who grab credit card >> information? :) >> >> RS > > > > > It be neat if you could have an online account and store your saves > there don't you agree rick? Shouldn't we be only talkig about Nintendo > related stuff though? > > -jed > ______________________________________________________________ > Q: Why are there bugs in most computers? > > A: They are attracted by the cookies and go in looking for a byte to > eat. > > - --Boundary_(ID_eJ//wWoia7+GvBfjdk1cmQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I thought that it wasn't possible for consoles to get viruses because they don't have any sort of mainframe with executable files and such. I dunno, anyone out there know anything about viruses (peferably of the computer nature and not biological).

Jedcross2@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 11/20/01 9:53:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, rlsharer@yahoo.com writes:
 
 
I'm not against a resident SAVE area, but a hard drive?  Coupled with a
modem there's too much potential for the Big Nasty Virus from the
HACKERS out there...you know, the guys who grab credit card
information?  :)

RS


 

It be neat if you could have an online account and store your saves there don't you agree rick? Shouldn't we be only talkig about Nintendo related stuff though?

-jed
______________________________________________________________
Q: Why are there bugs in most computers?

A: They are attracted by the cookies and go in looking for a byte to eat.
 
 

- --Boundary_(ID_eJ//wWoia7+GvBfjdk1cmQ)-- [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 21:35:55 -0600 From: Thraxen Subject: Re: [NG] HD OK, since we are discussing console HDs, here is a post fromt he IGN boards in a debate about HDs in consoles....I thought it made some good points: "The HD isn't used how people think it's being used. Data is accessed from the HD faster then it is from a DVD-ROM based media. Plus, without a HD the information is based from the DVD to the console memory. If you'd play a game like Halo you'd understand more how the HD works. Okay, let's say you playing Halo. Before you start playing a level you said the "Loading" screen. What is actually happening is that data for the entire level is being put on the harddrive. So when you're playing the game it doesn't have to access that data from the DVD again, which is slow. That is why whenever you see the message "Level loaded" it takes 1/2 a second. If it had to be loaded from the DVD it would take alot longer. I know that people have played games where within the same level they head to a new area and you get the "Now Loading" screen. Here, the data for the next part of the level must be accessed. The memory is cleared for the new level. With a HD, that data is accessed instantly. Also, any previous permanment effects done within the level are stored on the harddrive. Keeping the memory free to do what it has to do. Also, what happens when there comes a part in the game where there is going to be lots of objects within a screen and alot of things happening at one time. Well, the HD can be used to cache some extra ram for the console. The problem with cached ram is that it is accessed about 10 times slower then regular ram. So, it is not a substitue for regular memory, but it gives an extra boost. A game will still get slowdown, but if no memory was cached then perhaps that scene with slowdown would never happen at all because it was be too much of a strain on the console. The harddrive is also a storage media. Permanent effects can be stored much easier with a harddrive. You kill a room of say 100 enemies, those 100 enemies can be kept there with the harddrive. Once you leave the room the informaiton on the enemies is stored to the HD and it frees up memory for the console. No HD means that information would have to be kept in memory. So, those 100 enemies would have to be kept in memory constantly. So, the more you killed the slower the game would get. That's why in most games when you killed an enemy they simply disappear. Or, whenever you enter a new section of a level, the game game clears the memory and loads up the new level. When you go back, your data was erased, so those enemies would be gone. Anything permanet eats up the memory. WIth a HD that is not the case. Another nifty feature, but not really that big of a concern is the ability for saved games on a harddrive. Instead of having to buy multiple memory cards you save money. I've always had the problem of buying memory cards just to save a game that I knew would never be played on another system. So, now memory cards are an optional thing. So, you are not forced to pay for a memory card when you buy your console. Also, just because the harddrive is in the Xbox does not mean a developer is making full use of it. " Here's another one expanding on a point given above: "ok for one thing bye bye memory cards but the real kicker is take a game like HALO that game is HUGE the stages span for miles and miles with .5 second load times in between levels, this is possible because at the start of each world the hdd caches all the data for about 25 seconds, now when you play halo every bullet hole STAYS every dead body STAYS every war torn area stays war torn, this is just one of the great things about it on a LAUNCH GAME believe me the hdd is amazing in fact its my FAVORITE part of xbox and what really seperates xbox from cube" The whole deal about bodies and stuff staying is very true. I noticed that when I was playing Halo. Sometimes if I ran out of ammo I would run back to a previous area pick up some guns left on the ground....all the guns and ammo, all the bodies, all the blood on the floor and walls, etc... are all still there, just as you left them. Pretty cool. Stryder [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 21:39:00 -0600 From: Don Fentie Subject: Re: [NG] The situation as it is - --Boundary_(ID_x2VCmiqUCbwJIAGsyhwRyw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I guess they could potentially get access to your game saves and possibly even add stuff on there but I mean it can't add some sort of macrovirus into a game save. It would have nothing to effect! Also if some sort of 'foreign' file like an executable was introduced, the cube wouldn't be able to read it anyway. Jedcross2@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/20/01 10:01:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, > thraxen@ipa.net writes: > > > >> Think about it. A hacker would have to figure out a way to access >> your >> machine while your were online playing a game. I'm not even sure if >> that's >> possible. Consoles are much easier to protect against that sort of >> stuff. >> >> Stryder > > > > > True. What is there to hack? You simply have game saves... > > -Jed > ______________________________________________________________ > Q: Why are there bugs in most computers? > > A: They are attracted by the cookies and go in looking for a byte to > eat. > > - --Boundary_(ID_x2VCmiqUCbwJIAGsyhwRyw) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I guess they could potentially get access to your game saves and possibly even add stuff on there but I mean it can't add some sort of macrovirus into a game save.  It would have nothing to effect!  Also if some sort of 'foreign' file like an executable was introduced, the cube wouldn't be able to read it anyway.

Jedcross2@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 11/20/01 10:01:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, thraxen@ipa.net writes:
 
 
Think about it.  A hacker would have to figure out a way to access your
machine while your were online playing a game.  I'm not even sure if that's
possible.  Consoles are much easier to protect against that sort of stuff.

Stryder


 

True. What is there to hack? You simply have game saves...

-Jed
______________________________________________________________
Q: Why are there bugs in most computers?

A: They are attracted by the cookies and go in looking for a byte to eat.
 
 

- --Boundary_(ID_x2VCmiqUCbwJIAGsyhwRyw)-- [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 21:40:51 -0600 From: Don Fentie Subject: Re: [NG] HD Hmm that is pretty interesting... but what if there is an error on that drive? I mean if you are playing games all the time and you are cycling through thousands and thousands of erased and rewritten data would the HD ever become 'brittle'? Thraxen wrote: > OK, since we are discussing console HDs, here is a post fromt he IGN boards > in a debate about HDs in consoles....I thought it made some good points: > > "The HD isn't used how people think it's being used. > Data is accessed from the HD faster then it is from a DVD-ROM based media. > Plus, without a HD the information is based from the DVD to the console > memory. > If you'd play a game like Halo you'd understand more how the HD works. > Okay, let's say you playing Halo. Before you start playing a level you said > the "Loading" screen. What is actually happening is that data for the entire > level is being put on the harddrive. So when you're playing the game it > doesn't have to access that data from the DVD again, which is slow. That is > why whenever you see the message "Level loaded" it takes 1/2 a second. If it > had to be loaded from the DVD it would take alot longer. I know that people > have played games where within the same level they head to a new area and > you get the "Now Loading" screen. Here, the data for the next part of the > level must be accessed. The memory is cleared for the new level. With a HD, > that data is accessed instantly. Also, any previous permanment effects done > within the level are stored on the harddrive. Keeping the memory free to do > what it has to do. > Also, what happens when there comes a part in the game where there is going > to be lots of objects within a screen and alot of things happening at one > time. Well, the HD can be used to cache some extra ram for the console. The > problem with cached ram is that it is accessed about 10 times slower then > regular ram. So, it is not a substitue for regular memory, but it gives an > extra boost. A game will still get slowdown, but if no memory was cached > then perhaps that scene with slowdown would never happen at all because it > was be too much of a strain on the console. > The harddrive is also a storage media. Permanent effects can be stored much > easier with a harddrive. You kill a room of say 100 enemies, those 100 > enemies can be kept there with the harddrive. Once you leave the room the > informaiton on the enemies is stored to the HD and it frees up memory for > the console. No HD means that information would have to be kept in memory. > So, those 100 enemies would have to be kept in memory constantly. So, the > more you killed the slower the game would get. That's why in most games when > you killed an enemy they simply disappear. Or, whenever you enter a new > section of a level, the game game clears the memory and loads up the new > level. When you go back, your data was erased, so those enemies would be > gone. Anything permanet eats up the memory. WIth a HD that is not the case. > Another nifty feature, but not really that big of a concern is the ability > for saved games on a harddrive. Instead of having to buy multiple memory > cards you save money. I've always had the problem of buying memory cards > just to save a game that I knew would never be played on another system. So, > now memory cards are an optional thing. So, you are not forced to pay for a > memory card when you buy your console. > Also, just because the harddrive is in the Xbox does not mean a developer is > making full use of it. " > > Here's another one expanding on a point given above: > > "ok for one thing bye bye memory cards > but the real kicker is take a game like HALO that game is HUGE the stages > span for miles and miles with .5 second load times in between levels, this > is possible because at the start of each world the hdd caches all the data > for about 25 seconds, now when you play halo every bullet hole STAYS every > dead body STAYS every war torn area stays war torn, this is just one of the > great things about it on a LAUNCH GAME believe me the hdd is amazing in fact > its my FAVORITE part of xbox and what really seperates xbox from cube" > > The whole deal about bodies and stuff staying is very true. I noticed that > when I was playing Halo. Sometimes if I ran out of ammo I would run back to > a previous area pick up some guns left on the ground....all the guns and > ammo, all the bodies, all the blood on the floor and walls, etc... are all > still there, just as you left them. Pretty cool. > > Stryder > > [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] > [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] [ To quit the NGamers mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ] [ NGamers" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ] ------------------------------ End of NGamers-digest V1 #1732 ****************************** [ To quit the NGamers-digest mailing list (big mistake), send the message ] [ "unsubscribe NGamers-digest" (without the quotes) to majordomo@xmission.com ]