From: owner-orb-digest@lists.xmission.com (orb-digest) To: orb-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: orb-digest V2 #482 Reply-To: orb-digest Sender: owner-orb-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-orb-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes orb-digest Sunday, June 24 2001 Volume 02 : Number 482 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 23 Jun 101 12:25:13 -0400 (EDT) From: babylon@egenius.org Subject: Re: (orb) Cydonia v2 -- jam on yer honey * I want to preface this response by saying that I am not an * absolute socialist. I only took the side of socialism for the this one * particular point. Also, I want to mention that, tim, you are obviously I don't think that this mp3/music debate really has anything to relate it to Socialism. In a Socialist country where things are shared for the common good, when a new song comes out, or a band makes a new album, they don't just hand you a CD. If so, who would need the OAA or MP3s? Every person in the UK does not have a copy of Cydonia. They had to buy it. People in China have to buy it as well. The only right to music that anyone has... which also realtes historically... is the right to sing or play any music for themselves. When a Bard travelled around and played music for someone in the past. There was no way to record and play that music once he was gone. So there was no problem with ownership. However anyone could sing that song if they wanted to. jon # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 13:01:37 -0400 From: Jeff Birgbauer Subject: (orb) re. jam on yer honey I couldn't get this mp3 to work. it claims it's not an mpeg or it has corrupt headers er something... anyone else have this problem? i tried to get it on a mac and a pc can someone mail a copy that works?? thanks! jeff # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 13:13:37 -0400 (EDT) From: james.drysdale@utoronto.ca Subject: (orb) (OT) mouse on mars live Speaking of Mouse on Mars...what're they like live? Worth seeing? (they're coming to Toronto soon...) james > I guess it's july 3rd. forget the venue... micah, you going? anybody > else gonna be there? I'll be there. email me if anybody wants to > meet up. > -ben ......ooooooOOOOOOoooooo...... "God help us. We're in the hands of engineers." - - from Jurassic Park # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:22:15 -0700 From: "Seofon" Subject: (orb) orb for one, orb for all > You are speaking of music as if it just happened without anyone's > productive effort going into it. Just how do you expect that person, > whose product you have just stolen, to live - if you do not give value > for value? Music is intellectual property Well, the whole thing is wrapped up in capitalism, and only works because that's what we're dealing with. I make music because I have an insane compulsion to do so. I only need to claim it as private property, release it to the public, and attempt to make money off of it because of the idea that I need to "make a living." It beats Eastern-bloc socialism, sure, but it's not the ultimate. There have been societies in which art was common property. So far no political system on Earth has "worked," else we wouldn't still be mucking about with 'em. This kind of ties in with a subject I've been ruminating on for a while now, about how making music and releasing records are two totally different activites, often having very little to do with each other ... > And who could make this argument? How could music (or any other human > creation) just happen? It is usually my experience that music 'just happens' ... when I'm doing it right, anyway ... Anyhow, I'd like to boil this down to one question, the only question that's important to me as it applies to this subject. Does LX basically approve of us all having a gas trading non-commercial Orb soundz, or does he not? - -=Seofon # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 11:46:42 -0700 From: Tim C Subject: Re: (orb) orb for one, orb for all > property. So far no political system on Earth has "worked," else we > wouldn't still be mucking about with 'em. No political system on Earth has "worked" only because pure, unadulterated, laissez-faire capitalism has never been implemented. The closest mankind has come was 19th-century USA - but it must be stressed that while that was relatively free, it was far from pure capitalism. A look at the history of railroading in America is a great view of not only the level of government involvement in business dealings - favoritism, restraint of trade, land grants, and so on - in that century, but the practical results of those sorts of dealings. Exception - Jim Hill, history's real-life Nat Taggart. > It is usually my experience that music 'just happens' ... when I'm doing it > right, anyway ... Wait - "just happens?" WHEN _YOU_ ARE _DOING IT_?! Do you not see the contradiction and context-dropping involved in your remark? T $ # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 19:08:15 +0000 (UTC) From: micah Subject: Re: (orb) (OT) mouse on mars, NYC On Sat, 23 Jun 2001, Reverend djbluE (Chromatest) wrote: > I guess it's july 3rd. forget the venue... micah, you going? > anybody else gonna be there? I'll be there. email me if anybody > wants to meet up. yeah, i'd like to go, if i can scrounge the cash... on a totally unrelated note, anybody know where the sample ("...now i'm not recommending a church...") in the zodiac youth "fast forward the future" mix comes from? laerm@sdf.lonestar.org | micah stupak | backup account | still anti-html if you sent me an email since 21 june 2001 and i didn't reply, i didn't get it - please send it to this address. # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 19:15:53 +0000 (UTC) From: micah Subject: (orb) more genuine orb content the german drum'n'bass artist panacea released an album last year under the name 2nd gen on the sub-label of force inc, position chrome. the album was called _disorder_, and the first track is called "loose control". well, it's an orb sample fest. the entire intro is a bunch of chunks from _live '93_, pretty much. wild. laerm@sdf.lonestar.org | micah stupak | backup account | still anti-html if you sent me an email since 21 june 2001 and i didn't reply, i didn't get it - please send it to this address. # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 12:52:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Jason I Hicks Subject: (orb) promos (cydonia v2) It IS illegal to sell promos (I should know I've worked in a record store for the last five years). Just because everyone does it doesn't mean that it is legit. Sort of analagous to the ubiquitous consumption of a certain proscribed herb. Think about it, promos are promotional, that is they are given away FREE, whoever sells that promo is putting the money in their own pocket and screwing over the label and the artist, and possibly preventing the sale of an official item. If you gave me a gift, would you rather I shared it with someone or turn around and sell it for profit? Its really a no brainer. ikki # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 101 15:45:58 -0400 (EDT) From: babylon@egenius.org Subject: Re: (orb) orb for one, orb for all * * > property. So far no political system on Earth has "worked," else we * > wouldn't still be mucking about with 'em. * * No political system on Earth has "worked" only because pure, * unadulterated, laissez-faire capitalism has never been implemented. The * I would postulate that pure Capitalism would fail just as pure Socialism does for the very same reasons. That is the failings of mankind. I think this debate is also missing the point that there is a difference between Socialist political systems, and Socialist economic systems. In the end the person with all of the money is no longer motivated to innovate since he has all of the money. He has all of the market and nobody can compete with him. Hence he sells everyone total crap..... witness Microsoft... and the person with the money has all of the power and runs the government. Of course it all comes down to the fact that society while nice is really the human race's attempt at enlightenment, which leads to the downfall of mankind. Pure Darwinism. Any attempt to destroy the natural cycle of selection, causes the system to become poisonned, and leads to the extinction of the species. jon # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 13:27:28 -0700 From: Tim C Subject: Re: (orb) orb for one, orb for all > I would postulate that pure Capitalism would fail just as pure Socialism > does for the very same reasons. That is the failings of mankind. Pure capitalism would work for the very same reasons that pure socialism does not. And, man - contrary to wildly popular belief - is NOT doomed to failure - is NOT flawed, immoral, weak - is NOT deceived by his senses - is NOT incapable of knowledge. "Anthem of the heart, and anthem of the mind A funeral dirge for eyes gone blind We marvel after those who sought New wonders in the world they wrought." N. Peart > I think this debate is also missing the point that there is a difference > between Socialist political systems, and Socialist economic systems. Um, what? > In the end the person with all of the money is no longer motivated to > innovate since he has all of the money. WRONG! The productive (whether he be innovative or the lowest menial worker) must keep producing to keep living. Productive work is a requirement of life, whether or not you technically need the money or not. If you don't work to produce anything, your mind will stagnate, and your body will follow - you will live out the rest of your days in living death. And, the concept of "all of the money" (as well as a previous post that I did not address regarding distribution, rather than creation, of wealth) is invalid - productive people will continue to create wealth. A great example - again - is the US during the 19th century. Someone mentioned how there was a generally low standard of living and so forth, and erroneously concluded that government controls are responsible for the improved standard of living this century. WRONG! The US started out with a lower standard of living simply because the wealth had not been created yet. Now, thanks to the drive, capability, action of the scant few that did create this wealth (and understand this is a consequence, not a pragmatic justification), general prosperity is enjoyed by all that care to expend even the most basic of efforts. > witness Microsoft... and the person with the money has all of the power > and runs the government. AHA! Not if the government's sole job is to protect the rights of the citizens! > Of course it all comes down to the fact that society while nice is really > the human race's attempt at enlightenment, which leads to the downfall of > mankind. Pure Darwinism. Any attempt to destroy the natural cycle of > selection, causes the system to become poisonned, and leads to the extinction > of the species. Um, guess what, pal - man is part of nature. He lives by his mind - society is the only way that man can properly function. This is NOT an argument for collectivism or socialism. It is a simple statement of the fact that to properly live (achieve happiness - proper happiness) a man must trade with fellow men for the results of THEIR thought and labor - to do everything himself would simply not be possible. The only thing that will lead to extinction of man as a species is if man fails to realize his nature - understand it - live by it. His nature is that of a being with volitional consciousness. The proper philosophy will save him - all others will doom him to destruction. I've already stated what my philosophy is specifically - Objectivism. I wouldn't want to live in the world of yours. By the way, on that note - are you enjoying using the fruits of mankind's "attempt at enlightenment" to communicate your contradictory ideas on the subject? T $ # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 14:05:46 -0700 From: Chris Johnson or Shannon Beets Subject: Re: (orb) promos Jason I Hicks wrote: > > It IS illegal to sell promos (I should know I've worked in > a record store for the last five years). Just because everyone does it > doesn't mean that it is legit. Sort of analagous to the ubiquitous > consumption of a certain proscribed herb. Think about it, promos are > promotional, that is they are given away FREE, whoever sells that promo is > putting the money in their own pocket and screwing over the label and the > artist, and possibly preventing the sale of an official item. If you gave > me a gift, would you rather I shared it with someone or turn around and > sell it for profit? Its really a no brainer. Sorry, I can't let this go by, as it simply untrue, at least in the US (where we both are, for those who are keeping track). Selling promos is *not* illegal. In general, they are given away by the record company, and the recipient can dispose of them however they see fit. (That is how private property works.) The record label's sole recourse is simply to not give them to people who dispose of them in a way that the company doesn't like. (Or, in the few cases where the recipient actually has to sign a contract to receive the promo, they could be taken to court for violating that contract. Guess how often that happens.) If selling promos were illegal, almost every used record store in LA would be out of business, as most of their stock is promo material. Chain record stores that sell used CDs (like Wherehouse) don't sell promos because that would be the final straw for the distributors and major labels, who are already pissed that they are selling used CDs. Record companies try to discourage the selling of promos, but they can't actually prevent it. You can print whatever you want on the sticker or label of a promo CD; that doesn't make it true or legally enforceable. Record labels make an informed decision when they produce promos. They *know* a good fraction of them are going to end up on the market, but they believe they do more good for sales than harm. Artists are the ones who get screwed, since the cost of promos are usually recouped from their royalties. BTW, did you know that some record and promotion companies actually "pay" interns in promo CDs? They know that most of them are going to be sold. I've also seen instances where people were bribed or paid off with large numbers of promo CDs, and told to sell them for cash. Finally, I've also seen record company employees come into used CD stores, and *give* large numbers of promos to the store, with the explicit understanding that they will be put in the used bins and sold cheap, to help promote a release. Chris # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 18:01:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeff Subject: Re: (orb) orb for one, orb for all > man: > - is NOT flawed, immoral, weak I'd disagree with this one. People aren't perfect. Most people can be bought. Take some Joe off the street and convince him you'll give him $10 million to kill a random other person, and there will be no reporcussions, I bet people will go for it. If man isn't flawed, immoral, weak... then why do we have crime? > - is NOT deceived by his senses drugs, propoganda, prejudicial mental filters > - is NOT incapable of knowledge. Plenty of people would be perfectly happy to stay stupid and content, though. What you don't know can't make you depressed. > If you don't work to produce anything, your mind will stagnate, > and your body will follow - you will live out the rest of your days in > living death. And is this something to be avoided? Sounds like a bad thing to me, but sounds like a goal for your average hard-working American.... who wants to be a billionare and live a life of comfort and decadence? Lots of folks. Sounds like an American Dream. > WRONG! The US started out with a lower standard of living simply > because the wealth had not been created yet. Now, thanks to the drive, > capability, action of the scant few that did create this wealth (and > understand this is a consequence, not a pragmatic justification), > general prosperity is enjoyed by all that care to expend even the most > basic of efforts. I gotta agree with that one. I won't say the US is the perfect system, but it's less broken than most. > AHA! Not if the government's sole job is to protect the rights of the > citizens! But a Conservative agenda is to protect our moral rights..... something that Liberal types find offensive. And I'm sure there are "rights" the Liberal platform wants that Conservative doesn't. Goes both ways. Protecting the rights of the citizens is such a subjective thing. Try to get 2 people to agree completely on what the rights of a citizen are. - ---- Jeff A Klein Bottle has zero volume, so we suggest that you do not use it as a personal flotation device. # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 18:11:24 -0400 From: "Reverend djbluE (Chromatest)" Subject: Re: (orb) orb for one, orb for all Jeff wrote: > > WRONG! The US started out with a lower standard of living simply > > because the wealth had not been created yet. Now, thanks to the drive, > > capability, action of the scant few that did create this wealth (and > > understand this is a consequence, not a pragmatic justification), > > general prosperity is enjoyed by all that care to expend even the most > > basic of efforts. > > I gotta agree with that one. I won't say the US is the perfect system, > but it's less broken than most. heheh.. I was just reading this stuff, and now this email/thread http://www.sharedcapitalism.org/scfacts.html enjoy # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 17:19:14 -0500 From: Brian Subject: Re: (orb) orb for one, orb for all > But a Conservative agenda is to protect our moral rights..... something > that Liberal types find offensive. And I'm sure there are "rights" the > Liberal platform wants that Conservative doesn't. Goes both ways. > Protecting the rights of the citizens is such a subjective thing. Try to > get 2 people to agree completely on what the rights of a citizen are. Ok, Jeff -- I think Tim and I, and maybe even Vince, agree that a person's rights are to life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness. Period. Conservatives and Liberals alike may appear to have a different agenda, but in the end it is the same: to control other people against their will. The conservatives do it by trying to control the mind, the liberals do it by trying to control the pocketbook. Either way, the result is the same. I know that if everyone were to afford themselves those four basic rights, pure capitalism would result -- and the rich would get richer and the poor would get richer. You would see a dramatic decrease in crime. In homeless. You would see utter change, change never before witnessed on earth -- because IT HAS NOT BEEN ALLOWED TO BE. There are always governments taking away more rights than they are allowed. It's unfair to us all. And it hurts -- more than anyone else -- the POOR. - -Brian # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 15:51:12 -0700 From: Tim C Subject: Re: (orb) orb for one, orb for all > I'd disagree with this one. People aren't perfect. Most people can be > bought. Take some Joe off the street and convince him you'll give him > $10 million to kill a random other person, and there will be no > reporcussions, I bet people will go for it. If man isn't flawed, immoral, > weak... then why do we have crime? A) The argument that "people aren't perfect" is flawed. Moral perfection is not unobtainable, provided your morality is based on reality rather than fantasy. B) Joe will not go for it - he would in fact be horrified - so long as he has any shred of decent morals. In fact, the force of morality on people's behavior is actually quite strong - I would argue that most people would in fact not do this deed, for any price. C) We have crime because some people are weak. Specifically, they refuse to face reality - and they try to short-circuit it. > > - is NOT deceived by his senses > drugs, propoganda, prejudicial mental filters Drugs - certain drugs do cause irrational mental activity - so, obviously, one must ask what is their value? And, if there is some value involved that makes the use of them, despite sensory deception, worthwhile, of course one doesn't take seriously any false sensory side effects. I.e. someone may take acid and have their walls appear to turn to rubber - but at no point does this actually occur. The person's sensory distortion is drug-, not reality-, induced, and therefore it would be ridiculous to suggest that sensory data while in an artificially altered state would necessarily be reliable. Propaganda - any man who knows how to think knows how to disarm propaganda. What tool gives him this capability - you guessed it, a proper, rational philosophy. PMF? What? > Plenty of people would be perfectly happy to stay stupid and content, > though. What you don't know can't make you depressed. Unless being dead depresses you, of course. > And is this something to be avoided? Sounds like a bad thing to me, but > sounds like a goal for your average hard-working American.... who wants > to be a billionare and live a life of comfort and decadence? Lots of > folks. Sounds like an American Dream. Again, being a billionaire and living in decadence do not necessarily correlate. > But a Conservative agenda is to protect our moral rights..... something > that Liberal types find offensive. And I'm sure there are "rights" the > Liberal platform wants that Conservative doesn't. Goes both ways. > Protecting the rights of the citizens is such a subjective thing. Try to > get 2 people to agree completely on what the rights of a citizen are. Well, see Brian's previous remarks on this - he hit it right on the head. I will point out, however, that rights are ABSOLUTELY OBJECTIVE. Nothing subjective about them AT ALL. They are inalienable, and I already explained why humans have them. If people disagree on what rights one has, what they are really arguing about is what special privelege they want (say, affirmative action), or what they want to take away from others (say, their guns). T $ # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 16:49:27 -0700 From: Chris Johnson or Shannon Beets Subject: (orb) recent "philosophical" discussions Not wanting to get into this, I can only point out that it would be foolish for anyone to assume that the ongoing silence of the vast majority of people on this list signifies agreement. With *any* of the points of view expressed. :P ObOrb: Um...finally listened to the Lamaq Evening Session tracks...I must say that I dig both EDM and Red Worm. Chris (staying out of it (hopefully)) # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 21:12:19 EDT From: Vagrant970@aol.com Subject: (orb) FTP site, 2001 bootlegs Hello, Could someone please point me to the FTP site, OAA? Also, I saw Orb a couple months back in Denver. Absolutely amazing! Any 2001 boots available, Denver in particular? Completely off subject, but would any one also know where to find Radiohead bootlegs. I saw them on the 20th at RedRocks and was blown away. Had a spiritual connection of sorts and would love to have this show. Thanks for the spare change. 5001, Alex # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 23:18:20 -0400 From: "Lance @ Inaudible" Subject: (orb) Orb-like dub recommendations? Recently i've been getting into classic dub that the early orb releases were influenced by. I've purchased a few King Tubby, Zion Train, and Sly & Robbie cds but there are so many other names out there. I dont know what i should buy next. Lee Perry? Augustus Pablo? Andy Horace? Yabba You? The Scientist? During Alex's dj sets at the Detroit Orb show he played quite a few classic dub tracks which i really liked. anybody know what those were? any recommendations would be appreciated. - -->-Lance---- PO Box 450715 Westlake, OH 44145 United States # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 00:24:58 -0400 From: Justin Roby Subject: (orb) Juno Reactor in DC Hey all. Wondering if any list members local to the DC area are planning on catching Juno Reactor at the 9:30 Club this coming Tuesday (June 26). Wouldn't mind meeting some of you all. I think I'll be wearing either my 242 tee or the "autolump" tee (badorb.com tee with the cow). - -- Justin Roby jroby@gwu.edu, mac.com roby.justin@verizon.net http://gwu.edu/~jroby "Anything the Wright Brothers can do, the Wrong Brothers can do. Right?" "Wrong!" -- The Three Stooges # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 04:22:34 -0700 From: "Seofon" Subject: Re: (orb) orb for one, orb for all Hi Sean! > Right On Seofon! This capitalistic society, in which we exist, perpetuates > this big huge greed monster. The idea of intellectual property was not > generated by the artists, but by the Corporations and the layers who go to > make money off of artists "Intellectual Property" Because It is seen that > Records have to be sold, in order for more to be made just reeks of the > current recording industry swill that they had laid a foundation of pain and > thievery of many great artists. Well, exactly ... the very thought I had right after I sent that last post was that, while LX originally held the copyrights on his music, most of them have been transferred in large part to record labels and/or music publishers, all of whom I reckon could give a rat's ass about our trading and collecting desires. I don't care about their feelings as much as I care about LX's, but that is the "reality." Anyhow, the record execs built this city on rock & roll. I'll admit that the music industry may have been quite appropriate when rock was the genre and the artist base had the relatively small size that it did. But it's gotten less appropriate over time, as the bins get more and more crowded, and especially when you start getting down to the "independent" scene and fringe artists like the Orb and even more out-there stuff. I've found, being at the small scale that I am, that it actually behooves me to give a certain portion of my music and products away for free. I even know one musician who treats his CDs as a "promotional expense." > Ask the motown musicians, when copyright law was just being formed as far as > recordem music is concerned. IF the Artists had any say on it, it would be a > very different world today. Besides the fact, they way that american > copyright law protects music, is quite racist, since it only protects > melodies and lyrics, as opposed to grooves and rhythm, which is what soul, > R&B, Blues rely on so much. Interesting angle! ... I'd never considered that. Haven't bands, though, successfully sued hip-hop artists for sampling and looping their grooves? (Of course, Negativland has something to say about that, but let's take one bugaboo at a time ...) My angle is that the problem is not so much the industry in principle, but its privileged access to channels of distribution. For some artists the industry is quite appropriate. But something like the WWW levels the playing field for artists for whom it isn't, and I think that's pretty exciting. And I'm not going to turn up my nose at capitalism until there's a viable, better alternative. Heck, if I sell you a CD from my website for a measly $6, I'm still more than doubling my cost! > I always thought music has always existed. The music we make, we really > don't own, but we stumble upon it. Sound has always existed and occurs > naturally in this world. Melodies, rhythms, harmonies, they are all > naturally occurring instances, we just find then and make them "exist". Again, this is certainly the way it is ... for me. But lots of people make music for lots of different reasons. Some people do make music to make money, or use it as a platform to gain public visibility or make social commentary ... and this is a fine thing. But if you try to lump all of these artists and approaches into the same category then you'll run into problems. - -=Seofon # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jun 101 12:55:41 -0400 (EDT) From: babylon@egenius.org Subject: Re: (orb) orb for one, orb for all I really hate the fucking listserv that is running this list. I can understand that some people quote to damn much. But all of my mail bounces if I quote anything at all... great way to make a list less usefull. * Pure capitalism would work for the very same reasons that pure socialism * does not. And, man - contrary to wildly popular belief - is NOT doomed * to failure - is NOT flawed, immoral, weak - is NOT deceived by his * senses - is NOT incapable of knowledge. Some would agree with you, some would not. *> WRONG! The productive (whether he be innovative or the lowest menial *> worker) must keep producing to keep living. Productive work is a *> requirement of life, whether or not you technically need the money or All of this arguement is about conflicting philosophies. I was not expousing one philosophy or the other. I was mearly pointing out that any of these philosophies COULD work if everyone just got along and did the right thing. Which in the end makes which philosophy we chose unimportant. However neither of the HAVE worked because man (the collective) has not decided to just get along, everyone agreeing, and follow the same philosophy. And that is because human nature says that some people are going to try and get ahead and have advantage and power and money and control. If you have pure communism someone will cheat and not work, and someone else will try and be dictator. If you have pure capitilism, someone will try and cheat. Someone will subvert the government. The people in charge of the government's benevelance do not create anything tradeable themselves to gain capital, so they will trade what they do have, power. They will change things to create advantage for money. That is human nature. And it is also Darwin's Laws of Nature. Only the strong survive. If everyone just gets along, then it is in someone's best interest to do something else, to get ahead. Start an insurgency, overthrow the government, rally all of the peasants in the mountain province and run a fiefdom, all to get ahead. * > witness Microsoft... and the person with the money has all of the power * > and runs the government. * * AHA! Not if the government's sole job is to protect the rights of the * citizens! * Except that is the problem. The governments sole job is NEVER just to protect the rights of the citizens. Governments are about someone needing to have power over other people. Some people do it for the right reasons but other people don't. Just a fact, just human nature. Why aren't all cops cool? Why do they harrass people in the name of protecting them? Could it be some people are assholes, and they fulfill themselves by doing that? * Um, guess what, pal - man is part of nature. He lives by his mind - * society is the only way that man can properly function. This is NOT an I think there have been plenty of rural sustenance farmers over the years that have lived by the fruits of their own labor without any other help. Usually society calls the kooks or loonies, but it has been done. Not my place to argue whether is was a fulfilling life, but it is possible. Humans are however social animals. > > By the way, on that note - are you enjoying using the fruits of > mankind's "attempt at enlightenment" to communicate your contradictory > ideas on the subject? > Actually I don't consider the internet an "attempt at enlightenment" by mankind, though many people portray it as such. But now that you mention it yes I am. However I personally built what was at one point over half of the Internet, so I am enjoying the fruits of MY labor, and so are you. I will also note that like most other newsgroups or mailing-lists on the Internet, the orb list always seems to devolve into a name calling shouting match. Nothing and I mean nothing can be debated or discussed on this list without people talking shit to each other. All I wanted was to debate. I am done with this. Over the last few years many have said it, but it seems that I expected more civility (there is that word) on the orb list. jon # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jun 101 13:08:15 -0400 (EDT) From: babylon@egenius.org Subject: Re: (orb) orb for one, orb for all Damn I said I was done.... ooops I am flawed. * Specifically, they refuse to face reality - and they try to * short-circuit it. That is the point we are arguing. More then a few people are weak. In fact most people are weak in some way. Just because A man can be perfect, and EVERY man CAN be perfect, does not mean that ALL men ARE perfect. If we could all achieve an enlightened state (which I believe is a laudable goal) then all of this government and economics shit would not matter. But that has not happened, so it really does. To think otherwise is to disregard reality. * Well, see Brian's previous remarks on this - he hit it right on the * head. I will point out, however, that rights are ABSOLUTELY OBJECTIVE. * Nothing subjective about them AT ALL. They are inalienable, and I * already explained why humans have them. If people disagree on what * rights one has, what they are really arguing about is what special * privelege they want (say, affirmative action), or what they want to take * away from others (say, their guns). It is important to note that you are using human in this statement when you should be using American. (This is not a personal attack). However most cultures have different ideas of what inalienable rights are. The rights you are speaking of are most clearly American. If you look at Asian philosophy and culture, you will find completely different ideas on what rights are. In fact when you look at most European cultures you will find different things as well. Which is why socialism is more popular, because subverting the rights of the self to the collective whole for the good of the collective is an accepted idea. jon # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 11:26:24 -0600 From: "bi11i" Subject: (orb) Bill Brook's Teatime Remixes This cd is great, the 12501 teatime session from lx, along with some other stuff that bbbrooo@aol.com (brooks) mixed in. I've upped the cover art and the music to the OAA and moresounds sites. The chain reaction site appeared to be full. Get ahold of this if you can, It has the centuries remix on it as well for all those who were asking. jeff # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Send the command "info orb" to majordomo@lists.xmission.com. # To post, email orb@lists.xmission.com; replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ End of orb-digest V2 #482 *************************