From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: OT Joke - Enjoy! Josie (fwd) Date: 02 Apr 2000 22:31:48 PST On Apr 02, by way of Josephine Lindsay Bass wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] A language instructor was explaining to her class that French nouns, unlike their English counterparts, are grammatically designated as masculine or feminine. Things like "chalk" or "pencil," she described, would have a gender association. For example: House is feminine, la" maison. In English, of course, words are of neutral gender. Puzzled, one student raised his hand and asked, "What gender is a computer?" The teacher wasn't certain which it was, and so divided the class into two groups and asked them to decide if a computer should be masculine or feminine. One group was composed of the women in the class, and the other of men. Both groups were asked to give four reasons for their recommendation. The men decided that computers should definitely be referred to in the feminine gender (la) because: 1. No one but their creator understands their internal logic. 2. The native language they use to communicate with other computers is incomprehensible to everyone else. 3. Even the smallest mistakes are stored in long-term memory for later retrieval. 4. As soon as you make a commitment to one, you find yourself spending half your paycheck on accessories for it. The group of women, however, concluded that computers should be referred to in the masculine (le) gender because: 1. In order to get their attention, you have to turn them on. 2. They have a lot of data but are still clueless. 3. They are supposed to help you solve your problems, but half the time they ARE the problem. 4. As soon as you commit to one, you realize that, if you had waited a little longer, you could have had a better model [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Fw: Fwd: S&W MUST DIE! (fwd) Date: 03 Apr 2000 22:33:54 PST On Apr 3, Jim Zoes wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] From: Edgar Suter Subject: Fwd: S&W MUST DIE! Date: Mon, 3 Apr 00 18:07:36 -0700 To: firearms-alert@lists.best.com > ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- > > Date: 04/03 09:40 > Received: 04/03 17:02 > From: L. Neil Smith, lneil@ezlink.com > To: 000 L. Neil Smith, lneil@ezlink.com > > SMITH & WESSON MUST DIE > > By L. Neil Smith > > See it soon in _The Libertarian Enterprise_ > http://www.webleyweb.com/tle > > Over the past couple of weeks, a third of my e-mail has concerned > a decision of the Smith & Wesson company to sign an "agreement" with > the Clinton Administration -- supposedly in order to avoid massive > state lawsuits -- to act as if the Second Amendment had never been > written. > > What began as a depressing event -- foreshadowing, many feared, > the end of private gun ownership -- has suddenly turned into something > else. Gun Owners of America announced what promises to be an effective > boycott against S&W. One by one, other companies told the Clintonistas > where to shove their "agreement". When everybody said the Austrians > would geek, they didn't, and neither did the Belgians -- although > Ruger and Beretta are lying low -- and distributors and dealers have > started sending S&W products back to Springfield, where they came > from. > > Most recently, S&W's Chicago lawfirm has quit them. > > Even Utah Senator Orrin Hatch -- arguably the most evil individual > in politics today -- could see which way the wind was blowing and has > introduced legislation in the Senate to forbid any further federal > participation in lawsuits against gun companies. And a credible move > is now underway in the congress to render the S&W "agreement" null and > void. > > It's sad to think that S&W, which predates the War between the > States, introduced the self-contained metallic cartridge, and in the > 1980s gave us the wonderful "Ladysmith" program -- encouraging women > to learn to defend themselves by redesigning weapons specifically to > fit the female hand -- has sunk to the low, crawling, yellow-bellied > pusillanimity that signing Clinton's "agreement" required. But the > fact is, S&W never did make managerial decisions particularly well, > whether it involved Second Amendment politics or merchandising of > weapons. > > Just in my lifetime, S&W has come up with bonnet-bees -- or some > focus panel has, or some overly-blonde vice president's wife -- so > stultifyingly imbecilic that it's embarrassing even thinking about > them. Back in the 60s, when they were owned by something called Bangor > Punta (which always sounded to me like one of Tarzan's animal friends) > they called publicly for handgun registration. This latest display of > the white feather is hardly unprecedented. They've always been Second > Amendment weaklings, likely due to their location in the only state > carried by George McGovern, and the fact that -- despite their actual > sales numbers -- they've always seen themselves primarily as a police > outfitter. > > Managerial decisions? If ever there was a "suicidal corporation", > S&W is it. Their .41 Magnum Model 58 Military and Police -- featured > prominently in my first novel, _The Probability Broach -- is a slick, > no-nonsense fighting instrument that, employing two cartridge power > levels, can take a man down or stop a car with only a little added > weight or bulk compared to the traditional (and woefully inadequate) > police .38 Special. One of the finest combat revolvers ever conceived, > S&W discontinued it, rather than producing it in stainless steel -- > and in .44 Magnum and .45 Colt -- as anyone with any brains would have > done. > > Managerial decisions? In the 1990s S&W had somebody working for > them who created what we all ended up calling the "gun of the week" > program, under which S&W came out with more innovative concepts over > the short span of a year than they'd introduced in the 50 preceding > years. Of course the man responsible was run out of the ancient outfit > with extreme prejudice and to this day they're ashamed to talk about > him. > > Managerial decisions? In my capacity as a competitive shooter and > retired gunsmith, S&W's Model 610 was technologically and historically > the best revolver ever produced anywhere by anyone. Naturally, after > only a year or two of production and almost no attempt to promote it > to gun buyers or any other part of the public, they discontinued its > manufacture. > > Managerial decisions? There are those who may disagree, but again, > in my opinion as a competitor and a gunsmith, S&W never could make > decent semiautomatic pistols, although they've wasted several fortunes > trying to get it right -- and failing every time. Their incompetence > may even account, at least in part, for the remarkable longevity of > Colt's 1911A1. Having shot (and repaired) many S&W autos and listened > to the lamentations of their owners, I have never been moved to buy > one. > > S&W revolvers are something else altogether. Magnificent "engines > of destruction" made legendary (most recently) by Clint Eastwood's > "Dirty Harry", they occupy a different plane of existence. I love them > all. My collection includes a .38, a .357 Magnum with an adjustable > front sight, a 10mm auto (that's the M610 I mentioned above, a sixgun > chambered for the 10mm autopistol cartridge -- it also shoots .40 > S&W), a .41 Magnum, a .44 Magnum, and a .45 ACP that works the same as > the 10mm. Once again, as a shooter and gunsmith, I agree they're a > trifle antiquated, designwise, fragile compared with Ruger's output. > But nothing can match their eye-pleasing elegance and hand-pleasing > grace. > > I risk boring the non-gunners (and non-wheelgunners) among my > readers because I want them to understand fully -- in technicolor and > 3D -- how painful it is for me to write the next few paragraphs. The > proposed boycott of S&W and other measures are good as far as they go. > I support them all wholeheartedly. However they don't go nearly far > enough. > > Smith & Wesson must die. > > I'm not saying that they don't go nearly far enough to satisfy our > purely emotional desire for justice, retribution, even revenge. I'm > saying that they don't go nearly far enough to guarantee our continued > _survival_. > > Smith & Wesson must die. > > Smith & Wesson must be amputated from the American social body > like the gangrenous excrescence it has become and thrown out with the > rest of the medical/political waste. Otherwise the infection will > spread. > > Smith & Wesson must die. > > Understand that it's going to take more than a boycott; S&W was > prepared for that or they'd never have signed Clinton's "agreement". > Being owned by an English holding company, it's more than likely that > their "surrender" was a put-up job to begin with, a gift from Tony > Blair, intended to give Clinton what he needs to destroy an entire > industry -- exactly as he's promised his comrades under international > agreements he's made to eliminate every personally owned weapon in the > world. > > Smith & Wesson must die. > > I've heard that the S&W CEO -- in a manner foully reminiscent of > the late Republican National Committee chairman Lee Atwater -- has > been confiding to the media that his customers are "a little crazy > just now, but they'll be back". What that tells me is that this time > -- unlike many similar moments over the past 50 years -- we can't be > satisfied to fend off the latest attack and survive with minimal > losses. > > This time it has to cost them something. Have no qualms ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: VIN -- the polecats ball (fwd) Date: 03 Apr 2000 22:32:04 PST On Apr 4, richslick@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] From: Vin_Suprynowicz@lvrj.com (Vin Suprynowicz) FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz The polecats ball The President of the United States is coming to Las Vegas this weekend. It's traditional for citizens to turn out and honor a fellow entrusted with so high an office. But what's an appropriate way to honor Bill Clinton? What would a man of honor do if publicly accused of ripping open the blouse of a grieving widow and fondling her breasts when she came to ask for a job -- and then conspiring to leak confidential letters from her government file to discredit her when she went public? What would a man of honor do if publicly accused of having an armed policeman bring a subordinate to him in a motel room so he could drop his pants and ask the startled young woman to "kiss it"; of pushing another woman of casual acquaintance down on a couch during a real estate tour and raping her (on the way out, famously smiling and advising her to "put some ice on that"); of committing murder by bombing foreign countries with which we were not at war merely to push his own embarrassing sexual escapades from the headlines; and then of a consistent and massive ongoing campaign of character assassination -- using the powers of his office to intimidate any and all such women and their families into silence, even if that required violating the 1974 Privacy Act, enacted specifically to ban the use of White House files for such purposes? The honorable man, of course, would rise up in righteous fury and demand his day in court at the earliest possible moment, in order to clear his name. Instead, the seven years of the Clinton administration have consisted of little but a full-court press of procrastination, using every tactic the legal weasels could dream up to stymie, dodge, drag out, frustrate, block and delay any legitimate inquiry into this pattern of behavior -- up to and including wagging that finger and lying to the entire nation on live TV. (What would Monica Lewinsky's reputation for truth-telling be today, were it not for one slightly soiled blue dress? The president's agents are still lying about having confidentially briefed the press, in those early days, calling her "a stalker kind of person.") As to those who support and apologize for the Creature-in-Chief, helping him deflect all accusations back at his critics: I believe the current term is "enablers." Now, the first lady -- who doesn't seem to travel with the president much, any more -- famously said all these charges were merely invented by a "vast right-wing conspiracy, out to get my husband since the day he was elected." But the Justice Department has just launched a criminal investigation into charges the White House conspired to hide vast quantities of subpoenaed e-mail from congressional investigators. How about that Attorney General Janet Reno (who last week also admitted under oath the FBI had no authorization from her to use tanks to demolish the back end of the Mount Carmel Church in Waco in 1993, nor to hold fire engines away from the scene as dozens of innocent women and children were incinerated): she part of Mrs. Clinton's "vast right-wing conspiracy"? Six Northrup-Grumman employees who worked under White House contract now testify before Congress they were ordered not to tell anyone about the missing Lewinsky e-mails; Betty Lambuth, the on-site Northrup manager, testified a White Official told her if anyone talked "We would lose our jobs, be arrested and put in jail." Betty Lambuth -- newest member of that "vast right-wing conspiracy"? U.S. District Judge Royce Lamberth just ruled that Bill Clinton "committed a criminal violation of the Privacy Act" by releasing personal letters to undermine the credibility of one of his accusers, Kathleen Willey -- the aforementioned bereaved job applicant who later re-buttoned her blouse and tearfully accused Clinton of unwanted sexual advances. No beating around the bush, there. The president "committed a criminal violation." Federal Judge Royce Lamberth: another member of the "vast right-wing conspiracy"? This is the second federal judge who's found Bill Clinton guilty of violating the very law he's sworn to enforce, of course. A federal judge in Arkansas first found him guilty of committing perjury in federal court and fined him $90,000. Just another member of the "vast right-wing conspiracy"? Chuck Colson, a Nixon aide, went to prison for two years for misusing a single FBI file. The Clintons gathered up hundreds, retaining thick-necked barroom bouncers to pore through them searching for leakable information to use against their political opponents. Mr. Clinton's punishment? The onetime law school professor (well, it was in Arkansas, you understand) could eventually find himself disbarred in his home state -- but has asked if they'll kindly put off that inquiry for, you know, another year or two. Thank goodness Mr. Clinton's heir apparent, easily-led naif Al Gore, who boldly asserts the automobile is destroying the earth, is made of sterner stuff. Caught red-handed using government phones for illegal fund-raising, the vice president merely asserts there is "no compelling legal authority" capable of arresting him for his crimes, and instead now presents himself as the newest champion of "campaign finance reform"! Let's pass some new laws I won't obey, either! Informed last month that a young woman willing to take the fall for his $100,000 in illegal fund-shovelling at the Buddhist Temple is about to go to prison, Mr. Gore acted as though he didn't even recognize the name. How on earth is one to honor the capo of such an administration? Stage a fund-raiser at the Midnight Bunny Ranch? Outdoor barbecue over a roaring fire fed by blazing volumes of the Revised U.S. Code? Personal lubricant to be delivered in 50-gallon drums? In the event, the Democratic faithful are expected to pony up $300,000 this weekend to rub elbows -- or whatever else protrudes -- with the First Rapist at the Green Valley estate of the wealthy real estate heirs of the late Las Vegas newsman Hank Greenspun -- where never a discouraging word will be heard. Then, another $100,000 in tribute is expected to pour forth at a lesser shindig at the digs of former Las Vegas Mayor Jan Jones, who, at least, the downtown casino barons have finally made an honest woman. Some of that money will eventually go to fund the election campaigns of redistributionist political candidates Ed Bernstein and Shelley Berkley, of course -- natives of Philadelphia and New York who will spend much of their share of the booty grinding out folksy TV ads narrated by other people (can't let their own accents be heard), attempting to convince the locals they're true down-home Nevadans of an independent bent, with down-home desert blue-jeans values. And, of course ... Friends of Bill. Applications will also be accepted for a few new Washington internships, I'm told. Though curiously, none of the Greenspun, Jones, Berkley or Bernstein children have yet applied. ... Vin Suprynowicz is assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas Review-Journal. His book, "Send in the Waco Killers: Essays on the Freedom Movement, 1993-1998," is available by dialing 1-800-244-2224; or via web site http://www.thespiritof76.com/wacokillers.html. *** Vin Suprynowicz, vin@lvrj.com "The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it." -- John Hay, 1872 "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed -- and thus clamorous to be led to safety -- by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." -- H.L. Mencken * * * To subscribe, send a message to vinsends-request@ezlink.com, from your NEW address, including the word "subscribe" (with no quotation marks) in the "Subject" line. All I ask of electronic subscribers is that they not RE-forward my columns until on or after the embargo date which appears at the top of each, and that (should they then choose to do so) they copy the columns in their entirety, preserving the original attribution. The Vinsends list is maintained by Alan Wendt in Colorado, who may be reached directly at alan@ezlink.com. The web sites for the Suprynowicz column are at http://www.infomagic.com/liberty/vinyard.htm, and http://www.nguworld.com/vindex. The Vinyard is maintained by Michael Voth in Flagstaff, who may be reached directly at mvoth@infomagic.com. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - about it. > A corporation isn't private property -- it's only an extension of the > state. Yes, that's what I said. In applying to the state for special > powers and immunities, a corporation becomes an _extension_ of the > state. > > Smith & Wesson must die. > > A boycott is not enough. Our goal must be to make life completely > impossible for S&W -- in exactly the same way anti-nuclear activists > made life impossible for the nuclear power industry in the 1960s and > 1970s. We must interdict S&W's sales to government agencies at every > level, starve the company, and kill it. For those who have the means, > we must find judges who will issue injunctions against city, county, > or state purchases -- especially preferential purchases -- of S&W > products. > > Smith & Wesson must die. > > For those who don't, picketing public buildings is an alternative, > as is attending the meetings of your local city council or county > commission. Remind them that they've taken what's supposed to be a > sacred oath to uphold and defend the Constitution. Tell them that, in > choosing to do business with a foreign corporation savaging the Bill > of Rights, they're violating both the letter and the spirit of that > oath. > > Smith & Wesson must die. > > Get every one of your gunny friends to help. If you see a S&W auto > or revolver in a cop's holster, don't bother him -- in these post-Waco > days he'll probably kill you if you do, and cook you, and eat you, and > get a commendation for it -- but find out if your city has a contract > with S&W and demand that it be terminated immediately on the grounds > (if all else fails) that the company falls short of Bill of Rights > compliance. > > Smith & Wesson must die. > > Lawyers among us need to injoin HUD and other government agencies > prepared to reward S&W for its cowardly behavior. One of the goodies > Clinton promised S&W (and anybody else who signs on) is preferential > treatment in the purchase of weapons by the the Department of Housing > and Urban Development and similar agencies. (I was unaware that HUD is > a major weapons buyer -- that's something, in itself, that should be > looked into.) I could be mistaken, but doesn't that sound illegal to > you? > > Whatever happened to competitive bidding? > > Smith & Wesson must die. > > Choke off S&W's sales for six months while the courts muddle the > whole thing, and S&W will miraculously find the grounds they need to > abrogate the deal. It's either that or be thrown onto the cliche-heap > of hisory. As New York's nasty attorney general can attest -- he's the > disappointed little creep whose cherished plans have backfired and > who's now trying to argue that a boycott is a violation of antitrust > laws -- it was signed under extreme duress that he himself helped > apply. > > (This is the pocket Nazi who warned gun companies to comply with > his demands or prepare to greet their bankruptcy attorneys at their > door. What they need to tell him is that times change and regimes > change with them. He _will_ learn to obey the highest law of the land > or prepare to greet federal marshals at his door with a big, noisy > collection of manacles, leg-irons, and belly-chains, and TV cameras to > record the moment as they shove him into the Black Maria and haul him > away.) > > Smith & Wesson must die. > > In the long run, this war will be won in the court of popular > opinion. We've always known -- and now, thanks to Gary Kleck and John > Lott, we can prove -- that guns and gun ownership save lives. Which > means that anything or anybody who interferes with unencumbered > ownership of and free access to guns endangers lives. In today's > battle of sound bites and slogans, that translates as "S&W kills > kids". > > We need to talk publicly about S&W's "Kid Killer Kontrakt". > > Smith & Wesson must die. > > If you ever hope to live in a civilization where you can walk into > a hardware store, put your cash on the counter, and walk out with the > weapon of your choice -- without ever having produced identification > or signing even a single piece of paper -- then Smith & Wesson must > die. > > Maybe once they're bankrupt, no more than a name, and in the hands > of pro-gun Americans again, we can go back to buying their beautiful > revolvers. > > Smith & Wesson must die. > -- > ======= order at: http://www.webleyweb.com/lneil/lnsbooks.html ======= > Author: The Probability Broach, The Venus Belt, Their Majesties' > Bucketeers, Lando Calrissian and the Mindharp of Sharu, Lando > Calrissian and the Flamewind of Oseon, Lando Calrissian and the > Starcave of Thonboka, The Lando Calrissian Adventures, The Nagasaki > Vector, Tom Paine Maru, The Gallatin Divergence, The WarDove, The > Crystal Empire, Brightsuit MacBear, Taflak Lysandra, Contact and > Commune, Converse and Conflict, Concert and Cosmos, Henry Martyn, > Pallas, Bretta Martyn, The Mitzvah (with Aaron Zelman), Forge of the > Elders, Lever Action, The American Zone > ======= order at: http://www.webleyweb.com/lneil/lnsbooks.html ======= [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [Fwd: [tgo-l] (fwd) What people should be saying in debates] (fwd) Date: 04 Apr 2000 06:25:04 PST On Apr 04, larry ball wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Here are some GOOD pro-gun arguments Organization: Horn'd Toad Enterprises RKBA! Reply-To: tgo-l@egroups.com NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed, without profit, for research or educational purposes to those who have expressed a prior interest. "Give It to Them Straight" by John Ross, Author of Unintended Consequences http://www.shotgunnews.com/members/fred/pages/Freds8.html The biggest mistake we make is failing to take the moral high ground on our issue, and letting our enemies define the terms. THEY SAY: "We'd be better off if no one had guns." WE SAY: "You can never succeed at that, criminals will always get guns." (FLAW: The implication here is that if you COULD succeed, it would be a reasonable plan.) WE SHOULD SAY: "So, you want to institute a system where the weak and elderly are at the mercy of the strong, the lone are at the mercy of the gang. You want to give violent criminals a government guarantee that citizens are disarmed. Sorry, that's unacceptable. Better that we should require every citizen to carry a gun." THEY SAY: "Those assault rifles have no sporting purpose. You don't need a 30-round magazine fro hunting deer -- they're only for killing people." WE SAY: "I compete in DCM High Power with my AR-15. You need a large-capacity magazine for their course of fire. My SKS is a fine deer rifle, and I've never done anything to give my government reason not to trust me, blah, blah, blah." (FLAW: You have implicitly conceded that it is OK to ban any gun with no sporting use. And eventually they can replace your sporting arms with arcade-game substitutes.) WE SHOULD SAY: "Your claim that 'they're only for killing people' is imprecise. A gas chamber or electric chair is designed for killing people, and these devices obviously serve different functions than guns. To be precise, a high capacity military-type rifle or handgun is designed for CONFLICT. When I need to protect myself and my freedom, I want the most reliable, most durable, highest capacity weapon possible. The only thing hunting and target shooting have to do with freedom is that they're good practice." THEY SAY: "If we pass this CCW law, it will be like the Wild West, with shoot-outs all the time for fender-benders, in bars, etc. We need to keep guns off the streets. If doing so saves just one life, it will be worth it." WE SAY: "Studies have shown blah blah blah." (flaw: You have implied that if studies showed CCW laws equaled more heat-of-passion shooting, CCW should be illegal. WE SHOULD SAY: "Although no state has experienced what you are describing, that's not important. What is important is our freedom. If saving lives is more important that anything else, why don't we throw out the Fifth amendment? We have the technology to administer an annual truth serum session to the entire population. We'd catch the criminals and mistaken arrest would be a thing of the past. How does that sound?" THEY SAY: "I don't see what the big deal is about a five day waiting period." WE SAY: "It doesn't do any good, criminals don't wait five days, it's a waste of resources blah blah blah." (FLAW: You have implied that if waiting periods DID reduce crime, they would be a good idea.) WHAT WE SHOULD SAY: "How about a 24-hour cooling-off period with a government review board before the news is reported? Wouldn't that prevent lives from being ruined, e.g. Richard Jewell? And the fact that this law applies to people who ALREADY own a handgun tells me that it's not about crime prevention, it's about harassment. Personally, I want to live in a free society, not a 'safe' one with the government as chief nanny." THEY SAY: "In 1776, citizens had muskets. No one ever envisioned these deadly AK-47s. I suppose you think we should all have atomic bombs." WE SAY: "Uh, well, uh . . ." WE SHOULD SAY: "Actually, the Founders discussed this very issue - it's in the Federalist Papers. They wanted the citizens to have the same guns as were the issue weapons of soldiers in a modern infantry. Soldiers in 1776 were each issued muskets, but not the large field pieces with exploding shells. In 1996, soldiers are issued M16s, M249s, etc. but not howitzers and atomic bombs. Furthermore, according to your logic, the laws governing freedom of the press are only valid for newspapers whose presses are hand-operated and use fixed type. After all, no one in 1776 foresaw offset printing or electricity, let alone TV and satellite transmission." THEY SAY: "We require licenses on cars, but the powerful NRA screams bloody murder if anyone ever suggests licensing these weapons of mass destruction." WE SAY: Nothing, usually, and just sit there looking dumb. WE SHOULD SAY: "You know, driving is a luxury, where firearms ownership is a right secured by the Constitution. But let's put that aside for a moment. It's interesting you compared guns and vehicles. Here in the U.S. you can AT ANY AGE go into any state and buy as many motorcycles, cars, or trucks of any size as you want, and you don't need to do anything if you don't use them on public property. If you DO want to use them on public property, you can get a license at age 16. This license is good in all 50 states. NO waiting periods, no background checks, nothing. If we treated guns like cars, a fourteen-year-old could go into any state and legally buy handguns, machine guns, cannons, whatever, cash and carry, and shoot them all with complete legality on private property. And at age 16 he could get a state license good anywhere in the country to shoot these guns on public property." Final comment, useful with most all arguments: YOU SAY: "You know, I'm amazed at how little you care about your grandchildren. I would have thought they meant more to you than anything." THEY SAY: "Huh?" YOU SAY: "Well, passing this proposal won't have a big immediate effect. I mean, in the next couple of years, neither Bill Clinton nor Newt Gingrich is going to open up internment camps like Roosevelt did fifty-odd years ago. But think of your worst nightmare of a political leader. Isn't it POSSIBLE that a person like that MIGHT be in control here some time in the next 30, 40, or 50 years, with 51% of the Congress and 51% of the Senate behind him? If that does happen, do you REALLY what your grandchildren to have been stripped of their final guarantee of freedom? And do you really want them to have been stripped of it BY YOU?" -- Charles Hamilton schuetzen@spamcop.net Houston, TX RKBA! X-NO-ARCHIVE: YES PERFORM CPR ON YOUR APR! Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW! http://click.egroups.com/1/2121/6/_/548382/_/954808515/ Texas-Gun-Owners is at tgo-l@onelist.com. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [slick-d] Fwd: More Cities Join HUD Gun Safety Plan [Antigun Laws] (fwd) Date: 06 Apr 2000 10:43:22 PST On Apr 4, Nykknakk@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] More Cities Join HUD Gun Safety Plan .c The Associated Press By PAUL SHEPARD WASHINGTON (AP) - Gunmaker Smith & Wesson's pledge to adopt landmark safety and responsibility standards is winning it a lot of business from local government officials. In the two weeks since President Clinton praised the Springfield, Mass., gunmaker for its stance, a total of 65 cities and counties have pledged to make Smith & Wesson their preferred source for police handguns. Thirty-seven of those local jurisdictions joined the list Friday, including Oakland, Calif.; Kansas City, Mo.; Buffalo, N.Y., and Richmond Va. ``Members of this coalition will use their considerable purchasing power to encourage gun manufacturers to make a safer products that cannot be accessed by criminals and children,'' Housing and Urban Development Secretary Andrew Cuomo said at a news conference Friday. Cuomo was joined by Washington Mayor Anthony Williams who also had some good news for the nation's largest handgun maker - the city was dropping Smith & Wesson from a lawsuit against the industry. ``This has been a historical breakthrough in the effort to make our communities safer,'' Williams said, adding that other gunmakers also ``have an obligation to comply.'' In an agreement that President Clinton announced on March 17, Smith & Wesson said it would install gun locks on all the weapons it sells, introduce within three years ``smart gun'' technology permitting weapons to be fired only by their owners and bar sales of its weapons at gun shows without a background check. The company broke industry ranks and changed its policy in exchange for a promise that it would be dropped from a lawsuit being put together by the White House and HUD on behalf of local public housing authorities. The District of Columbia in January named Smith & Wesson as one of 23 gun manufactures and two gun distributors being sued to recover Medicaid other governmental health care expenditures attributed to gunshot injuries, including wounded police officers. Last week, a group of 28 cities and counties - including Los Angeles, San Francisco, Atlanta, St. Louis, Boston and Florida's Miami-Dade County - announced they would give preference in their handgun purchases to Smith & Wesson. Cuomo said any other gun manufacturer that signs the pledge like Smith & Wesson's would get similar preference. Cuomo estimated that sales to law enforcement agencies make up between 20 to 30 percent of gunmakers' business. ``It comes down to an ecomonic preference. If you have a choice of what product to buy and who to do business with, you would choose the safer product and the more responsible company,'' Cuomo said. He cited a new study by UCLA asserting that more than 1.7 million children live in homes where guns are loaded but do not have safety locks. ``That shows the need for the product Smith & Wesson is developing,'' Cuomo said. Cuomo cited a published report that gun sales at Smith & Wesson's six retail stores show sales are up more than 300 percent. Joseph Rooff, mayor of Waterloo, Iowa, said that while gun safety is often portrayed as a big city issue, his community of about 65,000 demanded at a community meeting that more be done to protect children from guns. ``People turned out and said what they want is a safer community,'' Rooff said. Bill Powers, a spokesman for the National Rifle Association, said Friday that HUD's involvement in the gun issue has taken it far afield from what it should be doing to make public housing safer. ``It's a bad deal,'' Powers said. ``I'd rather see HUD trying to clean up public housing so criminals can't run things there. Their focus ... is all wrong.'' On the Net: http://www.hud.gov/news.html AP-NY-03-31-00 1748EST Copyright 2000 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without prior written authority of The Associated Press. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Civil Liberties Defense Foundation (fwd) Date: 06 Apr 2000 10:42:06 PST On Apr 06, Bill Utterback wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] ArialWe would like to announce the launch of the new Civil Liberties Defense Foundation website [http://]0000,0000,fefewww.libertydefense.com. >From this site, you will be able to obtain updates on the lawsuit against the mayors suing the gun manufacturers. You will be able to make (SSL secure encrypted) credit card donations to support the effort, and you will be able to learn more about your civil liberties. As most of you know, Smith & Wesson recently capitulated to the extortion of the Clinton Administration, and signed an agreement that damages the 2nd Amendment rights of all Americans. For details on the Smith & Wesson agreement, visit our Breaking News page at 0000,0000,fefehttp://www.libertydefense.com While many of the other manufacturers have stated that they will not sign the agreement, their fortitude may diminish as their legal costs continue to escalate and as political pressure mounts. To make matters worse, the attorneys general from New York, Connecticut, and Maryland have launched antitrust investigations against the distributors and dealers who have refused to do business with Smith & Wesson - 0000,0000,fefehttp://www.nytimes.com/library/national/033000snw-guns.html. We cannot predict when this Administration, the trial lawyers, and the various gun control groups and politicians will succeed in completely stripping us of our rights. That is why we must go on the offensive. That is why our attorneys are working day and night to complete the paperwork for our lawsuit to restore the 2nd Amendment rights of all Americans, and the right of gun stores to conduct business without restraints from cities in other parts of the country. We currently have fifteen Texas legislators who have agreed to go into court on your behalf, and we project that we will add ten to twenty more by the time we file the lawsuit. Visit our Breaking News page for a list. Now all we need is your support. We must raise $100,000 BEFORE WE FILE THE LAWSUIT to pay for the initial costs. The longer it takes us to raise this money, the longer we will have to wait to fight the battle. The longer we wait, the greater the chance that the other manufacturers will either go bankrupt or be forced to accept an agreement that will destroy our rights. Please do not hesitate to act the 2nd Amendment and liberty are depending on you. Visit 0000,0000,fefewww.libertydefense.com and make a donation today. Thank you, CLDF Board of Directors A few times a week, on average, I forward messages that I consider to be worthwhile. Occasionally I may be inspired to write a brief editorial. If you do not want to receive these messages, send me a message with UNSUBSCRIBE in the subject field. If you would like to begin receiving these messages, send me a message with SUBSCRIBE in the subject field. for Liberty (for all), Bill Utterback BUtterb@connecti.com ----- "We have the greatest opportunity the world has ever seen, as long as we remain honest -- which will be as long as we can keep the attention of our people alive. If they once become inattentive to public affairs, you and I, and Congress and Assemblies, judges and governors would all become wolves." Thomas Jefferson "It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." Samuel Adams "It is not the function of our Government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the Government from falling into error." U.S. Supreme Court in American Communications Association v. Douds, 339 U.S. 382,442 ----- World's Smallest Political Quiz http://www.self-gov.org/quiz.html Libertarian Party http://www.lp.org/ Fully Informed Jury Association http://www.fija.org/ Gun Owners of America http://www.gunowners.org/ Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership http://www.JPFO.org/ COPYRIGHT NOTICE-- In accordance with Title 17 U. S. C. Section 107, any copyrighted work in this message is distributed under fair use without profit or payment to those who have expressed prior interest in receiving this information for nonprofit research and educational purposes only. Ref: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [newsucanuse] VIN -- land use planning (fwd) Date: 06 Apr 2000 13:18:50 PST On Apr 6, SlickEditor@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] From: Vin_Suprynowicz@lvrj.com (Vin Suprynowicz) FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz High court lets an injustice stand Moscow rarely makes the list of the beautiful cities of the Old World. Why? Communism -- in polite society, "socialism" or "collectivism" -- is the doctrine that there's no such thing as private property. For most of the last century, visitors could find Russian intellectuals living in charming apartments, inside buildings that appeared virtually derelict from the outside. "Why don't you fix up the stairs, plant some flowers and give this old building a coat of paint?" the naive visitor would ask. "What, so some party member should drive by and notice it?" their horrified hosts would cry. "What if his niece is getting married and looking for a nice place to live? One phone call, and we'd be out in the street!" Under such a system, any property valuable enough to draw the attention of the armed thugs currently in uniform is immediately "placed into the collective care of the state for the good of the people." And then looted. A further refinement, developed in the 1920s, allows private individuals to retain theoretical title while granting government bureaucrats final veto power over any actual use. This system -- avoiding the more brutal appearance of outright seizure, while delivering the same result -- was dubbed in Germany "national socialism," and in Italy "fascism." Americans feel superior to such nonsense. Here, one of the realizable dreams of the middle class has long been private property ownership -- with private owners also financially motivated to keep up their properties, to increase re-sale value. But do we still have private property in America, really? Take San Francisco. Please. Housing prices now exceed the reach of the average working person, in part because the political class bars private development of much of the land. (Wouldn't want to turn over the old Presidio to some greedy private home developer. He might use it to make a profit.) Then, property taxes -- "rents" to the government for land supposedly privately held -- are jacked up, supposedly punishing only "the greedy rich." Try to pass the levies on to the tenants, and the landlord quickly faces the further refinement of "rent control." Finding all your capital thus tied up, in a locale quickly falling under the heavy hand of state socialism (pardon me, "enlightened land-use policy") what would you do? Claude and Michelline Lambert had an idea. The Lamberts own a small Victorian rooming house in San Francisco, which currently houses long-term renters. The Lamberts decided they could do better converting the building into a small tourist hotel. Of course, they had to apply for a city "permit." Always deft at counting votes, the politicians decided it would be nicer if the Lamberts were to continue renting to their current tenants. But California is not an outright communist state, so the city fathers couldn't simply seize the Lamberts' property, or outright forbid them a legal land use. Instead, the city informed the couple there would be a modest "permit fee" for converting their premises to a small hotel -- $600,000. The Lamberts offered $100,000, but no more. With the help of the The Pacific Legal Foundation, they then sued the city under the Fifth Amendment, which forbids the government from taking private property without paying just compensation. Pitifully, the U.S. Supreme Court voted 6-3 this week not to review the case (Lambert vs. City of San Francisco), allowing the extortionate $600,000 fee to stand -- with Justices Scalia, Kennedy, and Thomas in dissent. Recently, the high court had issued some encouraging rulings, holding that when building or zoning codes become so onerous as to effectively prohibit an otherwise legal use, a regulatory "taking" -- whole or partial -- has occurred. In such circumstances, the court has encouragingly held, the government entity in question must compensate the land owner -- pay for what it takes. This has evoked much squawking from the central planners along America's Main Streets, who were quick to realize how very many property rights they routinely crush, and how long a line might soon form at the cash register. While this week's high court vote does not undo those good rulings, it does indicate the court may be stepping back from its earlier, forceful defense of property rights. Those who favor such restraint brand such rulings "judicial activism." But activism in reducing illegitimate state power is precisely what the court is supposed to practice. At least, so long as our elected officeholders keep taking their cues from the former occupants of the Kremlin, the Reichstag, and the Palazzo Venezia. It appears Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist and Justice Sandra Day O'Connor led this week's cowering. Let us hope they soon regain their courage -- or that an enlightened new president soon finds the opportunity to place the court under the guidance of a firmer defender of the Bill of Rights -- someone more like Clarence Thomas. Vin Suprynowicz is assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas Review-Journal. His book, "Send in the Waco Killers: Essays on the Freedom Movement, 1993-1998," is available by dialing 1-800-244-2224; or via web site http://www.thespiritof76.com/wacokillers.html. *** Vin Suprynowicz, vin@lvrj.com "The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it." -- John Hay, 1872 "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed -- and thus clamorous to be led to safety -- by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." -- H.L. Mencken * * * To subscribe, send a message to vinsends-request@ezlink.com, from your NEW address, including the word "subscribe" (with no quotation marks) in the "Subject" line. All I ask of electronic subscribers is that they not RE-forward my columns until on or after the embargo date which appears at the top of each, and that (should they then choose to do so) they copy the columns in their entirety, preserving the original attribution. The Vinsends list is maintained by Alan Wendt in Colorado, who may be reached directly at alan@ezlink.com. The web sites for the Suprynowicz column are at http://www.infomagic.com/liberty/vinyard.htm, and http://www.nguworld.com/vindex. The Vinyard is maintained by Michael Voth in Flagstaff, who may be reached directly at mvoth@infomagic.com. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: In Praise of Outlaws (fwd) Date: 10 Apr 2000 10:46:04 PST On Apr 09, Odell Harwell wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Source: The Libertarian Enterprise http://www.webleyweb.com/tle/ I choose to be an outlaw. There was once a time when a majority of American Citizens understood this and approved. True, there were probably numerically more Tories residing in America at the time, but by definition one who chooses to be the subject of a ruler is not a Citizen, and of no consequence to anyone honorable. America was a nobility-free republic -- a revolutionary creation of outlaws. A land of honorable outlaws who agreed upon a minimal set of laws that even an outlaw could abide and grudgingly lent a tiny fraction of their natural sovereignty and reclaimed liberty to the obvious mutual benefit of all. Not all criminals are outlaws, and not all outlaws are criminals. An outlaw lives by a moral code, but blithely ignores absurd laws designed to suppress dissent and control private personal behavior. A criminal lives by no code, external or internal and is an animal to be mistrusted or destroyed. A criminal ignores whatever is inconvenient at the moment while an outlaw often chooses a personally inconvenient and sometimes dangerous course in the name of principle and honor. A criminal has absolute freedom, while an outlaw has personal liberty and spiritual freedom. A criminal will steal food from a working man, while an outlaw will refuse to pay child support to a welfare agency. A criminal will lobby into existence a law putting the cash of ten million laborers into his pocket, while an outlaw will refuse to file a tax return. A criminal will carry a gun to intimidate victims, while an outlaw will carry his gun as a symbol of his liberty and to defend against all aggressors. Our Bill of Rights is a relic of our outlaw past. It is a set of codes written by free Citizens who understood the necessity of controlling the monster they knew they were creating. They knew that there can be no words so offensive that they dare not be spoken or published. They knew that if anyone had that power to suppress, all had it and no one would dare speak freely, just as it had been in the ugly old world order they had fled. They understood the necessity of faith as well as the irreconcilability of conflicting dogma. They had seen firsthand the use of official religions to control outlaws, and didn't much care for what they saw. So they penned the First Amendment to the Constitution. They understood that the right to be armed, and to be a threat to the ruler simply by being, was an absolute. They codified this very clearly in a sentence ending "shall NOT be infringed" which contains not a single allow or permit. They understood that any compromise on this principle of freedom deeded the power of life and death over them to some unaccountable other. The right to be armed guarantees not bravery, nor victory, nor nobility, nor honesty nor honor, nor even safety, but merely the right to honest respect and a fair fight. And so the Second Amendment came to be written down. They had seen the tyranny and felt the violation of having the government put soldiers and officers into their homes to keep dissent minimized and politically correct. An outlaw knows this is no longer necessary, of course, since electronic monitoring can work more effectively and less personably in all cases. But they didn't have electronic magic at the time, so the founding outlaws only prohibited the quartering of troops in private homes in peacetime. This was the genesis of the Third Amendment. Many of the founding outlaws had felt the humiliation of being routinely searched in hopes of finding something illegal to be used against them or to turn them against their fellow outlaws. They knew of such outrageous offenses as random roadblocks, home invasion searches, searches through bank accounts and payrolls, and the ultimate humiliation of personal body searches. They knew how much could and would be made illegal and used to wrongly label them criminal, when the Tories eventually insinuated themselves into the newly created governments. They knew that actual criminals would use a Citizen's cloak of privacy to conceal misdeeds, and that this privacy must be protected from casual intrusions and mandatory disclosures. For all of this, the Fourth Amendment was drafted. The founding outlaws also knew well the coercive and dishonest tactics and abusive methods of executives and prosecutors, and so the Fifth Amendment was written to provide a tool to use against the excesses of the law. Remember, these were our founding outlaws! In the same vein, they knew the Tories would try to render these weapons ineffective in different kinds of legal maneuverings, so they enshrined some more protections, especially the right to trial by jury in the Sixth Amendment. And to avoid end runs around these protections by incorrectly labeling a dispute between law and outlaw as a contractual dispute, they enshrined the same jury trial provision in the Seventh Amendment. The founding outlaws finished up their magnum opus by providing a way for an outlaw to get out of jail in the eighth amendment, and specifically prohibiting the creation of most of the laws of which Tories are so fond in the Ninth and Tenth Amendments. So what is the point of this little history lesson? I'm one of the proud breed of modern outlaws. For a while, I thought we might be an endangered species. Now, however, thanks to the excesses and impatience of the Clinton Regime, our population has made a tremendous comeback, with our numbers increasing tenfold in a single generation. Do you remember the first point about how not all criminals are outlaws and how not all outlaws are criminals? The Tories in their twentieth century guises have been allowed to prey increasingly on the individual outlaw in the name of fighting crime. Every one of the protections in the Bill of Rights and the original Federal Constitution have been violated repeatedly in spirit and in letter. The Bill of Rights is simply the agreed upon part of the outlaw's code. And the government has itself become not an outlaw, but a criminal, by repeatedly proving that it follows no code at all. And so, since the outlaw lives by a code, there are government laws he must break and not be silent about, while a criminal lives by no code and can always beat the law. The result is lots of criminals, lots of Tories, and a few angry outlaws. This same situation prevailed at the beginning of this country -- Criminal rulers, Tories obeying, and outlaws standing with manly firmness at Lexington and Concord and Bunker Hill. And since the code or covenant has been broken, the response is and will be to avenge the wrongs, since avenging the wrongs is one of the most sacred items in the outlaw's code. Remember Waco! [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Docs Refute Mother's-Life Exception (fwd) Date: 10 Apr 2000 10:42:06 PST On Apr 9, Nykknakk@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Docs Refute Mother's-Life Exception Source: The Reagan Information Interchange Published: 3/22/00 Author: Lara McGovern, staff writer "There is Never a Situation where Pre-Born Children need to be Intentionally Destroyed to Save the Mother" Hundreds of physicians say there is no need for a life-of-the-mother exception to abortion. More than 200 physicians recently signed onto a statement intended to knock out yet another argument for abortion, according to Judie Brown, president of American Life League, the group sponsoring the document. The statement they signed said the following: "I agree that there is never a situation in the law or in the ethical practice of medicine where a preborn child's life need be intentionally destroyed by procured abortion for the purpose of saving the life of the mother." Dr. Peter Szekely, one of the signatories, acknowledged that pregnant mothers can face dangerous situations, but he said abortion isn't the solution. "There are several illnesses that a mother can face throughout pregnancy where her life may be endangered, and the treatment for that is often delivery of the child pre-term," Szekely said. "The child would be premature and would have some risks involved, but at least the intent would be to save the life of the mother and the child." "Fortunately, that really doesn't happen that often," added Dr. Byron Calhoun, head of the American Association of Pro-life Obstetricians and Gynecologists (AAPOG). "Realistically, the thing that should be done is to inform the woman of her choices, one of which is to carry her pregnancy as far as she can. If it delivers prematurely, resuscitate the infant and give it an opportunity for life." Brown said, however, that medicine and politics are poles apart on this issue. "Unfortunately, as the battle against abortion has become more and more political, I think that partisan politics has clouded our perception of (the baby as a) person, and we've even lost sight of medical evidence," said Brown said. Brown added that elected officials need to get concrete facts when it comes to the realities of abortion. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Fwd: [govtwatch] Fwd: Part 3 of 4 - One Global Curriculum - One World (fwd) Date: 10 Apr 2000 10:44:42 PST On Apr 9, Nykknakk@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Reply-To: govtwatch@egroups.com GovtWatch for Freedom http://members.aol.com/g0vtwatch/index.html "The Govt is Watching You...Who is Watching the Govt?" Dear All: The next report, Objective of Global Curriculum By Henry Lamb, was=20 published and =A9 in 1999, by WorldNetDaily.com, a .com news source we=20 recommend that you make a point of visiting often. =20 Mr. Lamb, eloquently details for us, how under the global peace, economics,=20 and education reform initiatives "one" education system of thinking is being= =20 implemented. Although some differences exists between countries, the root of= =20 system thinking are embedded throughout the goals and education objectives.=20 The goal is to DEVELOP future adults (our children) of the 21st Century that= =20 will be indoctrinated in these processes in order to help ensure completion=20 of the ultimate New World Order System. What's wrong with that? The teaching= =20 that everything is relative within a system of relatives and where there are= =20 no absolutes is exactly what Hosea 4:1 -9 as the ABSOLUTE REASON the world=20 (mans systems), WILL be destroyed. There's nothing wrong with that, because=20 its GOD's announcement of HIS rulership and Kingdom, not man's. You must kno= w=20 because you and your family must be able to survive the crisis we are headed= =20 towards.=20 Part 4 - the final report of this series, details a recent visit Rep Helms=20 had with members of the United Nations. It is important that you read report= =20 number 4, because as unconventional as it may appear, there is a world summi= t=20 planned for this October with the United Nations. The purpose of this summit= =20 is to have the "system of worlds" agree to a proposed charter, which our=20 current President is busy promoting - under the guise of world peace. Rep.=20 Helms, is adamant that he and other members of Congress are 100% against the= =20 UN's Charter to lead our government and the world's systems.=20 Next week, members of the WTO will be visiting Washington, DC to finish wher= e=20 they left off in Washington State. Our Impeached President, is making it his= =20 business to complete the trade economic/education agreements before the 2000= =20 Presidential elections, and before he leaves office. The taxpayers and voter= s=20 of this country believe that world peace is necessary so that our children=20 will live in a world free of the threat of war and/or world elimination. Did you know that in order to complete this charter our military will work=20 for and take orders from the UN? Did you know that our education system is a= =20 workforce development system that has been regionalized and will soon be=20 linked to network system databases throughout the world? Did you know that=20 this means every private record ever recorded on our individual lives is=20 being housed in a single records warehouse? Did you know that in order to=20 rule the world, the UN is forcing world systems to eliminate or modify their= =20 constitutions by adopting the new charters - which we will begin to learn=20 more about after Clinton leaves office in 2001? Did you know that world=20 leaders have come together to eliminate our freedoms in the name of peace?=20 Read the attached report, then read Part 4, Rep. Helm's southern manner in=20 telling the United Nations what they can do with their plan. Then RESEARCH these issues, follow what is going on, make time to discuss=20 this with your family and friends....and be prepared to take a stand when=20 Congress presents legislation this fall. Do not sleep on this issue. Althoug= h=20 we cannot stop what has been prophesied, we can inform others and prepare=20 ourselves for the changes....they are coming...they must come in order for=20 man to know that GOD's plan, the creator of earth and all living things, wil= l=20 be accomplished. 1 Thes. 5:3. Zalee Harris & Patricia Brady Dennis Education Doctors State of Maryland (301) 894-0914 Zalee Harris & Patricia Brady Dennis Education Doctors State of Maryland (301) 894-0914 [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: HUMOR: The problem with the Clinton Stamp (fwd) Date: 10 Apr 2000 14:40:29 PST On Apr 10, RichSlick@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] When Bill Clinton completed 5 years of his Presidency, he wanted a special postage stamp issued with his picture on it. He so instructed Hillary, stressing that it should be of international quality. The stamps were duly released and Clinton was pleased. But within a few days of release of the stamp, he began hearing complaints that the stamp was not sticking properly, and he became furious. He called Hillary and ordered her to investigate the matter. Hillary checked the matter out at several post offices, and then reported the problem to Clinton. She said, "There is nothing wrong with the quality of the stamp. The problem is people are spitting on the wrong side." [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [newsucanuse] VIN-- secret medical database (fwd) Date: 10 Apr 2000 14:39:43 PST On Apr 10, SlickEditor@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz Secret medical database In a 1994 study, the Agency for Health Care Policy and Research -- a division of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services -- found 42 percent of American cancer patients receive inadequate medication for pain. "Physicians are reluctant to prescribe high doses of morphine for fear of drawing attention, and possible punishment, from agencies that regulate narcotics," the AHCPR reported, launching a nationwide campaign to get chronic pain sufferers the treatment they need. Where are we now, more than five years later? "Joanee" -- the state bureaucrats of today's "Nevada Prescription Controlled Substance Abuse Prevention Task Force" won't give out their last names, or even where they work -- responds over the telephone that the secret computerized database she maintains, listing every prescription painkiller prescribed in Nevada, isn't supposed to discourage proper pain treatment. It isn't supposed to be used to go after doctors. It's just supposed to help the state identify patients who may be going from doctor to doctor to seek such prescriptions by the handful, so they can be encouraged to seek treatment. "This is an intervention task force, not a criminal one," purrs "Joanee" in a copyright story by Review-Journal reporter Jan Moller. "No one wants to see someone put in jail" for abusing prescription drugs, agrees Pharmacy Board Director Keith McDonald. But intentions notwithstanding, Jerry Hafen, a supervisor in the Las Vegas field office of the state Division of Investigations, tells reporter Moller that's not always how things work out. Making use of the secret database, "We will go to the Pharmacy Board and say, 'Who are your top 10 doctors who are prescribing these particular types of drugs?' " Hafen says. "Then we'll look at those docs. ... By all means, we take people to jail every day for submitting false or forged prescriptions for controlled substances." Sick people sent to jail? Goodness. But that still shouldn't have a chilling effect on individual doctors, so long as they don't participate in fraud or forgery, right? In the spring of 1993, federal agents arrested Las Vegas physician and Vietnam veteran Dietrich Stoermer. Much of Dietrich Stoermer's Las Vegas practice had come to involve treating patients bent over from chronic pain, since other doctors were ... well, afraid to treat them. In 1993, federal agents charged Dietrich Stoermer with 16 counts of improperly distributing prescription drugs. But defense attorney Lamond Mills successfully pointed out the secret tape recordings made by undercover agents showed Dr. Stoermer persistently questioning the government plants about their made-up symptoms, refusing to simply write pain-killer prescriptions on demand. After only a few hours of deliberation, a citizen jury unanimously acquitted Dr. Dietrich Stoermer on all charges on Dec. 15, 1993. Undaunted, in early 1994 the federal drug regulators cancelled Dr. Stoermer's DEA license number -- a number required to write prescriptions for any pain-killing drug -- anyway. "They don't use the word 'innocent' in the legal process," explained Drug Enforcement Administration spokesman Ralph Lockridge in Los Angeles. "It's 'not guilty.' ... 'Not guilty' can be based on a technicality. There's a different evidentiary standard for an administrative process. ..." Which is why the DEA felt perfectly free to drive Dr. Stoermer out of the practice of medicine in this country -- he eventually moved back to Australia -- despite the jury's unanimous "not guilty" verdict. So: What's the magic number of pain-killer prescriptions a Nevada practitioner should avoid, in order to avoid being "red-flagged" for such attention? They can't find out, because everything about the computer database of the Controlled Substance Abuse Prevention Task Force is secret. The names of the bureaucrats who run it are secret. The names of the two drug companies that donated $180,000 to help set it up are secret. The information on the database itself is not open to the public -- or even to doctors. Everything has to be kept secret because disclosure "might make doctors fearful of writing pain prescriptions," explains Mr. McDonald of the state Pharmacy Board. Ah. So the way to encourage doctors to do a conscientious job is to tell them: "We'll come to arrest you if you write too many pain-killer prescriptions, but we're not going to tell you in advance how many is 'too many' "? Besides, Mr. McDonald coos, "You have some people who just wouldn't like it, who don't want you to have any information about them, including their address or Social Security number." So it's alright for every cop and bureaucrat employed by the state of Nevada to access and investigate our names, our addresses, our Social Security numbers, and our medical histories, just because the doctor or dentist was considerate enough to write us up for a few Vicodin or Tylenol 3 after our last office visit ... but we can't let the taxpayer actually go and see whether his or her name might be on the list -- perhaps even in error? And this is all to protect the citizens' privacy? If it's inappropriate for the state to release the information it gathers, the correct solution is to bar the state from gathering or compiling such information in the first place. Secret medical databases under government control and open to police use are extremely dangerous. And databases which trip red flags that say "Investigate this doctor," without informing our doctors of what precisely will cause those red flags to go up, are dangerous, counterproductive, and absurd, contributing to precisely the sadistic and physically damaging undermedication of pain which the federal government has now been warning us about for years. Vin Suprynowicz is assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas Review-Journal. His book, "Send in the Waco Killers: Essays on the Freedom Movement, 1993-1998," is available by dialing 1-800-244-2224; or via web site http://www.thespiritof76.com/wacokillers.html. *** Vin Suprynowicz, vin@lvrj.com "The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it." -- John Hay, 1872 "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed -- and thus clamorous to be led to safety -- by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." -- H.L. Mencken * * * To subscribe, send a message to vinsends-request@ezlink.com, from your NEW address, including the word "subscribe" (with no quotation marks) in the "Subject" line. All I ask of electronic subscribers is that they not RE-forward my columns until on or after the embargo date which appears at the top of each, and that (should they then choose to do so) they copy the columns in their entirety, preserving the original attribution. The Vinsends list is maintained by Alan Wendt in Colorado, who may be reached directly at alan@ezlink.com. The web sites for the Suprynowicz column are at http://www.infomagic.com/liberty/vinyard.htm, and http://www.nguworld.com/vindex. The Vinyard is maintained by Michael Voth in Flagstaff, who may be reached directly at mvoth@infomagic.com. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: I could cry (revised as suggested) (fwd) Date: 11 Apr 2000 12:09:52 PST On Apr 10, Richard Mase wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] A couple of weeks ago I posted this on PA-RKBA and got many compliments along with a suggestion to edit it. I just did. Check it out. And That Makes Me Want To Cry I've always been interested in history, particularly WWII. I guess it is because my father fought in WWII under General Patton, one of the greatest generals the world has ever known. After the war, he was stationed in Germany as part of the occupation forces and because he spoke Pennsylvania Dutch, (a dialect of German) he had the opportunity to speak to many of the German people. Growing up, I listened with fascination to the first and second hand stories he would tell. Much of what he taught me about that time, came from the accounts of the German people he talked to after the war. I just saw a documentary on The History Channel about how the Nazis came to power in 1930's Germany, a period of unparalleled economic growth, which had followed a deep depression. Many things stood out in my mind, mostly because they fit in exactly the way my father related them to me in his stories. He told me that one of the questions he would ask the Germans was, "How did you people allow Hitler to do all these things?" The answer was always the same, "I stood alone." One of the points The History Channel brought out was the way that people felt powerless to stop the things they knew were wrong because it seemed that every one else was in favor of them, so they went along. As I think back over the things my father taught me, this is what the people meant by, "I stood alone." But as my father explained, the people really were not alone. The majority of the German people knew the things Hitler was doing were wrong. However, the German media, controlled by Joseph Goebbles, made it seem like the majority of the German people really were in favor of the atrocities that Hitler and his henchmen were committing. Another point The History Channel made, which my father told me long ago, was that these atrocities did not happen overnight. They started out small and gradually got worse. It was easy for one radical idea to take off and snowball into the holocaust. That idea was a written plea from a father begging Hitler to allow him to kill his disabled child. The justification was that the expectation of a high quality of life for the child and the family was low. That evolved into the killing of disabled babies, to the killing of disabled children, to the killing of the Jews. In the beginning, the Nazis had to justify their evil actions. They blamed the Jews and the Gypsies for the woes of the nation. They took an incident where a Jew killed a child, blew it all out of proportion, and used it to start rounding up the Jews to "protect the children". Using the controlled media, they demonized the Jews, Gypsies, and anyone else who dared to contradict the official Party line. Also, many of Hitler's henchmen acted unilaterally, without his knowledge until after the fact. Then, if they were able to get away with it, would take the credit so as to incur favor to Hitler. A popular misconception of the Third Reich is that there was a Gestapo agent on every corner, that the Gestapo was everywhere. As it turned out, there were not as many Gestapo agents as one might think. There were, in fact only a handful, comparatively speaking. The real fear of the German people was not that the Gestapo would get them, but rather, that their neighbors would denounce them to the Gestapo. It was said that in the late 30's and the early years of WWII that the streets of Germany were the safest ever. Even today, there are safer countries than the United States, but the people have no freedom. Their governments are not restrained by a Constitution that forbids unreasonable search and seizure, allows bail, protects an individuals right to keep silent, or forbids cruel and unusual punishment. I think of what is happening right here, right now, in The United States. We are in the midst of one of the greatest periods of economic growth the country has ever seen which followed a period of severe recession. Policy is driven by public opinion polls. Even though people think that policy is wrong, they fail to speak out and go along with that policy because they are afraid. The mainstream media always portrays an issue they are in favor of as the majority opinion. We have mass abortion and guys like Jack Kavorkian running around killing people justifying their actions by the expectation of a low quality of life. We did not start out this way. First it was abortion in the case of incest, rape, or a danger to the mother. Then it evolved into abortion on demand, "doctor assisted suicide", partial birth abortion, the "justifiable" murder of a mother holding her baby, and finally, the immolation of 82 men women and children who belonged to an obscure Christian cult. To date no government employee has been held accountable for the deaths of Vicki Weaver or the 82 men, women, and children at Waco, Texas, not to say that it hasn't been tried. It seems that the employees had immunity because they were "just following orders." People's rights are being violated because someone denounces them to the police. Guns are confiscated because someone says the person is mentally unbalanced or because they think the person has too many guns. All too often, in cases like these, the burden has been shifted to the victim to prove his innocence. Children denounce their parents to school authorities for spanking them. Our children's doctors ask them if there are guns in the house. Our children are being declared disturbed and at risk if they dare to voice the opinion that teachers should be armed to prevent school shootings or just playing soldier. Segments of the population are being vilified and losing their rights or being ostracized as were the Jews. (Smokers, gun owners, cell phone users, SUV owners, and "right wing Christian extremists" ad infinitum) Our police can climb over the wall of private property without a warrant just by saying they believe that someone has been harmed. They can stop us at checkpoints to check us for drunk driving without cause. They can pull us over because we fit the "profile" of a drug dealer. They can break down our door in the middle of the night because they suspect us of dealing drugs. Many times they break down the wrong door terrify and even kill law-abiding citizens. They do this all in the name of safety and to "protect the children". My family came to this country in 1725. We have a long tradition of opposing tyranny. My great, great, great, great grandfather fought with Washington at Valley Forge and Trenton. Someone from my family fought in every war since then, my father with Patton, a brother in Korea, and another in Viet Nam. They fought for freedom. They fought for liberty and the American way of life. Such a rich family history, just as my father told me of his role in WWII the concept of freedom was handed down from father to son for generations. The concept originated at the beginning, right there with George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, et al. I look around and I see it all going to hell. I see it going exactly the way it did in Nazi Germany. Something inside me says "But we have a Constitution! We have the means to preserve our freedom without violence, within the system, by the rule of law." Then I remember, "There is no controlling legal authority." I was too young for Viet Nam. I was too old for the wars we fought since then. I sense a growing discontent among my friends and correspondents. I am more afraid of my government than I am the junkie who desperately needs his next fix. I am afraid that there will be another war for freedom and liberty unless We The People speak out and use the tools my great, great, great, great grandfather fought to bring forth. There will be a next one, and that makes me want to cry. Richard L. Mase Sr. Rick Tyranny Response Team Member In 1945,immediately following WWII, my father, who speaks German, was stationed in Germany. He asked many people the following question. "Why did you let Hitler do this?" The answer always was, "I stood alone." Please visit RKBA UNDER ATTACK! http://www.lmf.net/~rickmase [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [slick-d] Fwd: Emergency Liberty Letter (fwd) Date: 11 Apr 2000 12:11:40 PST On Apr 11, Nykknakk@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] EMERGENCY LIBERTY LETTER #51 April 10, 2000 Is the IRS 1040 form going to be the mechanism for the latest back-door scheme by the New World Order crowd to disarm American patriots? S: 2099: The most insidious scheme yet to force registration of every handgun in America It's the first step in a United Nations plan for a "comprehensive control regime" to restrict ownership of all privately owned firearms. The major media is trying to keep this under wraps: The survival of our U.S. Constitution is at stake! Bill Clinton is determined to leave office hailed by the global elite as the president who scrapped the Second Amendment and banned the right of private citizens to own guns in America. We can't let him claim this victory. Here are the facts you need to know about the latest gimmick by the enemies of liberty to steal your constitutional right to keep and bear arms and dissolve American sovereignty and freedom=85 While "big name" gun banners such as Sens. Charles Schumer, Frank Lautenberg and Dianne Feinstein seek out the headlines and the limelight, little-known first term Sen. Jack Reed (D-R.I.) is doing dirty work behind the scenes. On Feb. 24, Reed quietly introduced the so-called "handgun Safety and Registration Act of 2000." The bill is numbered S. 2099. It has been referred to the Senate committee on Finance. The bill would "amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to require the registration of handguns and for other purposes." Among other things, S. 2099 would do the following: - Impose a new federal "transfer tax" on handgun sales; - Impose new federal taxes on firearms manufacturers; and=20 - Require all now-unregistered handguns to be registered immediately The proposal is part and parcel of a UN plan to register every firearm possessed by every human being on the planet! The UN has called for a "Small Arms Control Regime" to impose an "international standard" on every country and to require the listing of every gun and its "current ownership." And keep in mind that the term "small arms" also refers to rifles and shotguns, not just handguns! The next step, maybe in your lifetime, would be heavily armed UN "peacekeepers" in your town, a la Kosovo, East Timor or Congo collecting your firearms. If you think that's an "extreme statement," it's time for you to wake up! Former French Prime Minister Michel Rocard is the spokesman for the UN cabal demanding a global firearms registration. This UN cabal wants to force sovereign nations to "tighten national controls." According to the UN, governments must start "using all tools available" to restrict access to firearms. The Internal Revenue code modifications proposed in S. 2009 will promote this UN-inspired gun grab in the United States, where Bill Clinton is leading the charge for the UN plan. He has also called for a national license to purchase a handgun, requiring prospective buyers to undergo an FBI check. And now, even the international banks are joining the effort. As we reported in The SPOTLIGHT, Citibank canceled the accounts of private businesses on the sole grounds they were lawfully buying and selling firearms. Only public outrage forced Citibank to back off.=20 HERE'S WHAT YOU MUST DO IMMEDIATELY =85 - Write and call your two senators. Urge them to not only oppose S. 2099, but to also publicly denounce the bill. Ask your senators to give you a specific answer as to whether they support S. 2099. - Tell your senators AND your representative in the House to OPPOSE ALL legislation to ban firearms in America and to WORK TO REPEAL gun control laws now in force. We need to flood Capitol Hill with calls and letters from angry Americans NOW! - Spread the word about Sen. Reed's dangerous proposal on call-in shows, letters to the editor, etc. Explain that S. 2099 in nothing more than a scheme to disarm Americans as part of a UN plan to enforce worldwide control of firearm ownership.=20 You can write your senators c/o the U.S. Senate, Washington D.C. 20510 and your representatives c/o the U.S. House of Representatives, Washington, D.C. 20515. To contact them by phone, call the Capitol switchboard at (202) 224-3= 121. - Make an emergency contribution to LIBERTY LOBBY to help our lobbying effort on Capitol Hill to stop S. 2099 dead in its track and to fight all gun-grabbing schemes! Please respond immediately. You may charge your donation to Visa and Mastercard by calling toll-free 1-800-522-6292. **************************************************************************** Subscribe to THE SPOTLIGHT! Only $59.00 for 1 year or $99.00 for 2 years. Every week, get the important stories=20 that the popular media either miss... or ignore. For around $1.00 per issue,= =20 THE SPOTLIGHT is a steal! Don't wait any longer. Make sure that you never=20 miss another issue. Subscribe now! To subscribe online, visit our SECURE server at www.spotlight.org.=20 You can also mail your subscription to THE SPOTLIGHT, 300 Independence Ave. S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003. OR CALL 1-800-522-6292 **************************************************************************** [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [slick-d] [Fwd: Time to organize] (fwd) Date: 11 Apr 2000 12:10:34 PST On Apr 10, Charles F. Nawrocki wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] ///////// SENT FYI //////// >Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:45:31 -0500 >From: Texas Net >Reply-To: texas_net@egroups.com >Subject: [Fwd: Time to organize] > > >-------- Original Message -------- >Subject: Time to organize >Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:11:52 -0600 >From: "M.O.M." >To: "M.O.M. Email Alert List" > >Topic: A Heads Up from the 2nd Amendment Sisters > >> > >> > >> >http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a38ef5c21551d.htm#1 > >> > >> COMING TO A NEIGHBORHOOD NEAR YOU! > >> > >> The Million Mom Marchers are planning marches in the > > >>following cities (those with > >> an asterisk have countermarches in the works): > >> > >> Arizona: Phoenix Scottsdale Tucson; > >> California: Los Angeles * Oakland Sacramento San >Diego > >>San Francisco; > >> Colorado: Denver *; > >> Connecticut: Broad Brook Trumbull > >> Uncasville; > >> Florida: Pompano Beach Jacksonville > >> Leesburg Melbourne Miami Naples > >> Sarasota Tampa Vero Beach; > >> Georgia: Atlanta; > >> Idaho: Boise Meridian; > >> Illinois: Chicago; > >> Kentucky: Frankfort; > >> Maine: Portland; > >> Michigan: Lansing; > >> Ohio: Cana Winchester Toledo; > >> Oklahoma: Tulsa *; > >> Oregon: Milwaukee Portland; > >> Texas: Austin Carrollton Houston San Antonio; > >> Utah: Salt Lake City *; > >> Washington: Seattle Silverdale Spokane > >> > >> If you are in or near one of these cities, now is >the > >>time for response! We > >> cannot let these go unchallenged and unanswered. If > >>you further information or > >> help in getting something organized, feel free to > >>contact Second Amendment > >> Sisters > >> http://www.sas-aim.org/ > >> and we'll see if we can get you hooked up with >others > >>in your area. > >> > >> If you are in or near one of the cities with a >planned > >>countermarch, we can put > >> you in touch with the organizers. >-- >Join the Militia of Montana Email Alert List by writing to: >militia@montana.com with "SUBSCRIBE" in the Subject Line! > >For the latest in great survival, preparedness and politically incorrect >materials visit our Online Catalog at: > > http://www.montana.com/militiaofmontana/catalog.htm Some great deals >are to be had! Or, send $2.00 to the address below for a copy of our 40+ >page Preparedness Catalog. > >Militia of Montana >P.O. Box 1486, Noxon, MT 59853 >Tel: 406-847-2735 n Fax: 406-847-2246 [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: A bad week for the whackos (fwd) Date: 12 Apr 2000 07:40:20 PST On Apr 11, C. D. Tavares wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Let's see. A highly-placed gun-banner mucky-muck loses it and beats up an armed citizen in Colorado, Patrick Kennedy assaults an airport security guard (female, of course!), and now this. (Wonder why we didn't hear it on the news?) Sender: Right to Keep and Bear Arms in Arizona Reply-to: Right to Keep and Bear Arms in Arizona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/news/stories/Story0605120.html -- Let's see, we have profiling (contrived), filing a false police report, *and* having a firearm on school property. Does this tell you how nuts these whackos are? Bernie This is the first day of the last of your Rights. Story by <>David L. Teibel Citizen Staff Writer April 11, 2000 Teacher admits to shooting herself, authorities say A La Cima Middle School teacher who said she was shot by an intruder in her classroom has admitted inflicting the wound herself, authorities said. Kathy Morris, 35, told deputies she shot herself in the shoulder before students arrived Monday to draw attention to a lack of security at the Northwest Side school, Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik said this afternoon. Morris, who had told school officials she recently was the target of threats, also was upset because the school failed to handle a problem child in her class, Dupnik said. Pima County Attorney Barbara LaWall said her office will file a petition in Superior Court to have Morris committed to a mental health facility for evaluation as soon as possible. LaWall said Morris also could be charged with weapons misconduct for bringing a gun to school and false reporting to a law enforcement agency. Both charges are misdemeanors. Morris had described her assailant as an 18- or 19-year-old Hispanic man with a shaved head. In a statement issued this afternoon, Amphitheater Public Schools officials said the district "wants to express its sincere apology to all members of Tucson's Hispanic community for the allegation, now known to be completely unfounded." District spokesman Rob Raine said the school's "staff was astounded. I am astounded. We didn't suspect anything like this." District officials said Morris has been placed on administrative leave with pay pending a district investigation of the incident. Morris is a sixth-grade science and choir teacher at La Cima, 5600 N. La Cañada Drive. She was in fair condition this afternoon at University Medical Center. A hospital spokesman said she was refusing comment on the incident. Dupnik said investigators first became suspicious of Morris' account of the shooting when she described being shot from about 6 feet away. The powder burns around the wound were consistent with a shot fired from about 3 inches away, Dupnik said. After obtaining a search warrant, deputies examined Morris' purse at the hospital and found a .38 caliber revolver that had been fired once recently in a false bottom of the purse, Dupnik said. >From the beginning, school officials have maintained children were in no danger because the shooting appeared to be a targeted act. A meeting was held last night to assure parents. No students were in classes during the 8:30 a.m. shooting because Monday was a preparation day for teachers. Thirty-one children were reported absent this morning, according to Raine. The 740-student school averages about 20 absentees daily. All but one staff member showed up today, he said. Morris' students are being taught by assistant principal Peter Kang. -- Tavares@alum.mit.edu | http://home.earthlink.net/~cdtavares | RKBA! Political correctness is just tyranny with manners. --CHARLTON HESTON [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [Fratrum] Re: THE JUBILEE 2000 SCAM (fwd) Date: 12 Apr 2000 08:56:58 PST On Apr 12, Huck wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] spiker wrote: > MEDIUM RARE by Jim Rarey > April 10, 2000 > > THE JUBILEE 2000 SCAM > > [The following article is a reprint of a piece this writer published in > early November last year just before the WTO meeting in Seattle where the > subject of debt reduction for third world countries was on the agenda. As > this foreword is being written, the writer is watching (on C-Span) a replay > of a "Jubilee 2000 USA" rally held yesterday in Washington D.C. Federal > officials and assorted left wing groups and individuals are exhorting the > crowd to put pressure on congress to "make money available" for debt > cancellation. As outlined below, the beneficiaries will be federal and > international agencies and investment bankers. That they have chosen to > hide the scam behind the biblical concept of "jubilee"(where all debts were > forgiven and property returned to its original owner) only shows the > depravity and absolute hypocrisy of those behind it] > > DEBT FORGIVENESS WHO GETS PAID? > > Once again the Congress, (House and Senate, Republicans and Democrats) and > the President are misleading the American public and insulting the > intelligence of many who understand basic bookkeeping and/or household > budgeting. > > The Foreign Operations and Export Financing bill (HR3196) appropriates > nearly $300 million for "debt reduction" for poor countries in Africa. This > is in recognition of the inability of those impoverished nations to repay > unspecified loans. This writer has no problem with the concept of "debt > forgiveness" in those circumstances. However, you don t need to appropriate > more money in order to forgive a debt. > > If you loan someone $100 and later decide to forgive that debt owed you, > you don t have to come up with another $100. You simply adjust your budget > to reflect the fact that you will have $100 less available to spend, save > or whatever you had planned to do with the $100 scheduled for repayment to you. > > What the Congress is doing in appropriating money for so-called debt relief > is paying off a third party so that the African countries will not have to > pay it. The question is "who or what is that third party?" > > The managers of the bill claimed that the debt to be forgiven is owed to > the U.S. Government. If that is true, and it is becoming increasingly > difficult to believe the assertions of members of both parties, then the > money is owed to some agency or agencies of the government that originally > loaned the money, e.g. the Import/Export Bank, or one of the many other > agencies that makes loans to foreign countries and government owned > entities in foreign countries. > > Thus we must conclude that the money being appropriated for "debt > forgiveness" will be directed to the agencies that originally made the > uncollectible (bad) loans. This will give them additional funds for making > more loans (to the same poor countries?) with money that was not > specifically authorized by Congress for that purpose. In other words, it s > a back door method of increasing foreign aid without calling it that, while > characterizing the action as humanitarian "debt relief." > > That little, if any, of the aid to those African countries actually > trickles down to the poverty-stricken populace is a major reason for > opposition to "foreign aid." Corruption of the leaders in many of those > countries, whether "democracies" or dictatorships, is an international > scandal. In truth, much of so-called foreign aid comes back to the > mega-corporations in the form of arms sales. > > To add insult to injury, it is suggested that these poor countries can use > the money they would have used for debt repayment for other needed programs > in their countries. If the money they got in loans was not spent for those > "necessary programs" and they don t have the money to repay the loans, > where are they going to get the extra money? It s a non sequitur. > > When international organizations such as the IMF and World Bank talk about > needing more money for "debt relief", it works much the same way except for > the third parties getting the payoffs. In most cases the beneficiaries will > be the investment bankers who made the bad loans in the first place (but > collected millions or billions in interest on the loans at exorbitant > interest rates). > > The fact that the politicians have to hide the true effects of their > actions behind disingenuous subterfuges like "debt reduction" shows they > know the public would not approve if presented in a straightforward manner. > So much for integrity! > > Permission is granted to reproduce this article in its entirety. > The author is a free lance writer based in Romulus, Michigan. He is a > former newspaper editor and investigative reporter, a retired customs > administrator and accountant, and a student of history and the U.S. > Constitution. > > If you would like to receive Medium Rare articles directly, contact us at > msutton828@provide.net. Although not required, we would appreciate an > indication of your general location. We like to know where our articles are > being received. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [slick-d] Fwd: Fw: And we think WE be's ejukated???!! (fwd) Date: 14 Apr 2000 09:44:15 PST On Apr 13, Charles F. Nawrocki wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] /////// SENT FYI// >>From: "Bonnie" >>To: >>Subject: Fw: And we think WE be's ejukated???!! >>Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:20:20 -0700 >>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 >> >> >>Subject: And we think WE be's ejukated???!! >> >> >Smoky Valley >> >> Genealogical >> >> > > Society and Library in Salina, Kansas and reprinted by the Salina >> >> Journal. >> >> > > >> >> > > 8th Grade Final Exam: Salina, Kansas - 1895 >> >> > > >> >> > > Grammar (Time, one hour) >> >> > > >> >> > > 1. Give nine rules for the use of Capital Letters. >> >> > > 2. Name the Parts of Speech and define those that have no >> >> modifications. >> >> > > 3. Define Verse, Stanza and Paragraph. >> >> > > 4. What are the Principal Parts of a verb? Give Principal Parts of >> >> do, lie, >> >> > > lay and run. >> >> > > 5. Define Case, Illustrate each Case. >> >> > > 6. What is Punctuation? Give rules for principal marks of >> >> Punctuation. >> >> > > 7 - 10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein >> >> > > that you understand the practical use of the rules of >> >> grammar. >> >> > > >> >> > > Arithmetic (Time, 1.25 hours) >> >> > > >> >> > > 1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic. >> >> > > 2. A wagon box is 2 ft. deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. wide. How many >> >> bushels >> >> > > of wheat will it hold? >> >> > > 3. If a load of wheat weighs 3942 lbs., what is it worth at 50 cts. >> >> per bu, >> >> > > deducting 1050 lbs. for tare? >> >> > > 4 District No. 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary >> >> levy to >> >> > > carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for >> >> > > incidentals? >> >> > > 5. Find cost of 6720 lbs. coal at $6.00 per ton. >> >> > > 6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 >> >> percent. >> >> > > 7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft. long at $ >> >> .20 per >> >> > > inch? >> >> > > 8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent. >> >> > > 9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance >> >> around >> >> > > which is 640 rods? >> >> > > 10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt. >> >> > > >> >> > > U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes) >> >> > > 1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided. >> >> > > 2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus. >> >> > > 3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War. >> >> > > 4. Show the territorial growth of the United States. >> >> > > 5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas. >> >> > > 6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion. >> >> > > 7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton, Bell, Lincoln, >> >> Penn, and >> >> > > Howe? >> >> > > 8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, >> >> 1849, and >> >> > > 1865? >> >> > > >> >> > > Orthography (Time, one hour) >> >> > > >> >> > > 1. What is meant by the following: Alphabet, phonetic orthography, >> >> etymology, >> >> > > syllabication? >> >> > > 2. What are elementary sounds? How classified? >> >> > > 3. What are the following, and give examples of each: Trigraph, >> >> subvocals, >> >> > > diphthong, cognate letters, linguals? >> >> > > 4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u'. >> >> > > 5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e'. Name two >> >> exceptions under >> >> > > each rule. >> >> > > 6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each. >> >> > > 7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: >> >> Bi, dis, >> >> > > mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, super. >> >> > > 8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and >> >> name the >> >> > > sign that indicates the sound: Card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, >> >> rise, blood, >> >> > > fare, last. >> >> > > 9. Use the following correctly in sentences, Cite, site, sight, fane, >> >> fain, >> >> > > feign, vane, vain, vein, raze, raise, rays. >> >> > > 10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate >> >> pronunciation by use >> >> > > of diacritical marks and by syllabication. >> >> > > >> >> > > Geography (Time, one hour) >> >> > > >> >> > > 1. What is climate? Upon what does climate depend? >> >> > > 2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas? >> >> > > 3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean? >> >> > > 4. Describe the mountains of N.A. >> >> > > 5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia, Odessa, Denver, >> >> Manitoba, >> >> > > Hecla, Yukon, St. Helena, Juan Fermandez, Aspinwall and Orinoco. >> >> > > 6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S. >> >> > > 7. Name all the republics of Europe and give capital of each. >> >> > > 8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same >> >> latitude? >> >> > > 9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to >> >> the sources >> >> > > of rivers. >> >> > > 10. Describe the movements of the earth. Give inclination of the >> >> earth. >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> >> > > >> >> > > Imagine a college student who went to public school trying to pass >> >> this test, >> >> > > even if the few outdated questions were modernized. Imagine their >> >> professors >> >> > > even being able to pass the 8th Grade. Can Americans, student and >> >> professor >> >> > > alike, get back up to the 8th Grade level of 1895! [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [newsucanuse] Re: April 14 column -- Thomas Gaule (fwd) Date: 14 Apr 2000 09:42:19 PST On Apr 14, SlickEditor@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz The troublesome case of Thomas Gaule A series of unusual things happened in Clark County District Judge Mark Gibbons' courtroom on April 4. The defendant, Thomas Gaule, stood convicted of voluntary manslaughter with a deadly weapon, a charge which could have netted him years in the state pen. Last year, a Clark County jury had convicted Gaule, 43, of chasing Ricky Tripp down Lakehurst Road in Las Vegas on Oct. 25 of 1998, and killing him with a shotgun. Officials at the Nevada state Division of Parole and Probation recommended a sentence of at least four years in prison. Generally speaking, a fellow in the position Mr. Gaule found himself in last Tuesday would be well advised to have brought along a toothbrush. But that's when the unusual things began to happen. Rising to oppose the recommendation of the Division of Parole and Probation was ... Chief Deputy District Attorney Bill Koot. "This case has been troublesome to me personally for as long as I've been assigned to this case," said Koot, who rarely stands to oppose the sentencing recommendations of the Parole Division. But in this case, Mr. Koot said he doubted prison time would serve any purpose. More, he said he believed jailing Gaule would send "the wrong message," that members of the public do not want to see a citizen go to prison in a case like Gaule's. Judge Gibbons promptly agreed: "If there's ever a case with extenuating circumstances, this is the one." The judge then sentenced Thomas Gaule to a period of probation not to exceed three years -- no jail time. For killing two men with a shotgun. If prosecutor Koot was so troubled, of course, one might ask why he pursued the case at all. But let's admit it did take some political courage to do what he and Judge Mark Gibbons did last week. Why did they do it? What happened to Thomas Gaule on the afternoon of Oct. 25, 1998 is that he came home to find two burglars in his house. He testified the two men jumped him and beat him severely, shocking him repeatedly with high-powered stun guns. He can still show the scars on his neck. Somehow, Gaule managed to make it into another room to retrieve a shotgun. He testified at his trial the men came at him even after he had retrieved the firearm, wrestling with him for control of the weapon. So Thomas Gaule shot them. Jason Allen Lamb was hit inside the house and died in the driveway. Ricky Tripp died 500 feet down the street, after Gaule chased him out of the house and fired again. In the death of Jason Allen Lamb, no charges were ever filed. Kill a burglar and assailant in Nevada, in self-defense, at the scene of the crime, and it's "case closed." Rightly so. In the death of Ricky Tripp, the question was whether a victim and homeowner -- Gaule -- has a right to chase down a home invader and assailant after that assailant turns to flee. Was Gaule still in fear for his life at the time he fired his final shot? The trial jury thought not. But was Gaule stunned and confused enough by his experience that his actions are excusable -- can society reasonably expect a man shocked with high-voltage taser blasts to the neck, on top of the fight-for-your-life adrenaline dump which could overrule normal deliberation for any average person caught in such a crisis, to pause at his doorway and muse on the intricacies of the laws of self-defense? Doubtless adding weight to Judge Gibbons' burden last Tuesday was the fact that Thomas Gaule is a quirky character, possessed of unusual opinions. "I think he's extremely paranoid ... obsessed with what he perceives to be an injustice," says prosecutor Koot. But Thomas Gaule has never been known to commit another violent act, before or since. Nor should defendants be sent to prison for their "oddball views," as correctly observed by Gaule's attorney, Peter S. Christiansen. In the end, Judge Gibbons authorized probation officials to require counseling for Mr. Gaule, and treatment for depression. And then he sent Thomas Gaule home. In the end -- while a felony trial and record are no picnic, and the jury clearly issued no license for others to engage in armed pursuits -- the county and the court decided the most important thing here was to protect the citizen's sacred right of self-defense. The county and the court ruled an otherwise peaceful Nevadan shouldn't go to prison for defending himself in his own home, even with deadly force, even if -- in the heat of a fight for his life -- he chases one of his tormentors out the door and down the street. It was a tough call. It's an oddity of modern American jurisprudence that civilians are held to a much higher standard than trained cops when it comes to shootings that aren't clear-cut self-defense. But last Tuesday, Chief Deputy D.A. Bill Koot and Judge Mark Gibbons got it right. Vin Suprynowicz is assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas Review-Journal. His book, "Send in the Waco Killers: Essays on the Freedom Movement, 1993-1998," is available by dialing 1-800-244-2224; or via web site http://www.thespiritof76.com/wacokillers.html. *** Vin Suprynowicz, vin@lvrj.com "The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it." -- John Hay, 1872 "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed -- and thus clamorous to be led to safety -- by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." -- H.L. Mencken * * * To subscribe, send a message to vinsends-request@ezlink.com, from your NEW address, including the word "subscribe" (with no quotation marks) in the "Subject" line. All I ask of electronic subscribers is that they not RE-forward my columns until on or after the embargo date which appears at the top of each, and that (should they then choose to do so) they copy the columns in their entirety, preserving the original attribution. The Vinsends list is maintained by Alan Wendt in Colorado, who may be reached directly at alan@ezlink.com. The web sites for the Suprynowicz column are at http://www.infomagic.com/liberty/vinyard.htm, and http://www.nguworld.com/vindex. The Vinyard is maintained by Michael Voth in Flagstaff, who may be reached directly at mvoth@infomagic.com. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Florida Firearms Lawsuit Bill (fwd) Date: 14 Apr 2000 17:45:20 PST On Apr 14, alerts@nra.org wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Florida Firearms Lawsuit Bill Need More E-mail in Support of SB-1398 Your emails are a tremendous help to us...Please keep working with us to protect your Second Amendment rights and Freedom!! This is a critical Committee for this bill. SB-1398 is scheduled for a hearing in the Governmental Oversight & Productivity Committee next MONDAY, April 17, 2000 at 3:30pm !!! SB-1398 by Sen. Charlie Bronson (R) is the Senate bill to stop governments from filing frivilous and reckless lawsuits against gun manufacturers. (It is the companion bill to HB-1537 by Rep. George Albright) [Full summary below] Emails are IMMEDIATELY needed to members of this committee. IN THE SUBJECT LINE PUT:
SUPPORT SB-1398 by Bronson - Stop Gun Manufact. Lawsuits
Senate Governmental Oversight & Productivity Committee: Jack Latvala (R), Chair. latvala.jack.web@leg.state.fl.us Virginia Brown-Waite (R) brown-waite.g.web@leg.state.fl.us Anna Cowin (R) cowin.anna.web@leg.state.fl.us Mario Diaz-Balart (R) diaz-balart.mario.web@leg.state.fl.us Jim Horne (R) **no email** Phone (850) 487-5027 Ron Silver (D) **no email** Strong Antigun (don't waste your time) Tom Rossin (D) rossin.tom.web@leg.state.fl.us Bill Summary: SB-1398 CIVIL ACTIONS/GUN MANUFACTURERS by Sen. Charlie Bronson (R) -- Prohibits suing firearms manufacturers or firearms dealer on behalf of the state or its agencies and instrumentalities, or on behalf of a county, municipality, town, special purpose district, or any other subdivision of the state for damages, abatement, or injunctive relief resulting from or arising out of the lawful design, marketing, or sale of firearms to the public. Provides legislative findings and intent. Provides conditions when law suits are permitted. Provides for award of attorney's fees. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Having difficulty finding ILA-related info? Try our FAQ Sheet http://www.nraila.org/show.cgi?page=/grassroots/19990813-GeneralInfo-015.html NRAILA.org is maintained for the NRA by http://www.mainstream.net Mainstream Electronic Information Services Homepage established 1994 by the NRA Institute for Legislative Action 11250 Waples Mill Road, Fairfax, VA 22030 [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [slick-d] 17th Amendment (fwd) Date: 15 Apr 2000 08:39:56 PST On Apr 14, Charles F. Nawrocki wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] > From The Desk Of > >Grandmothers For Honest Government >P.O. Box 6934 >Tyler, Texas 75711 >Working for better government today and all of tomorrow's. >Asking nothing for ourselves. > > PLEASE RE/POST > >THE 17th AMENDMENT OF THE U.S. CONSTITUTION > >Was it Valid? Was it Constitutional? > > >Addressed to all State Legislators: > >The United States Constitution was ratified in 1787. For the following 125 >Years through 1912 we had a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC; whereby, each State >Legislature selected their two U.S. Senators. The House of >Representatives, on the other hand was selected by direct popular >vote. The basic premise was interded to give checks and balance in the >Federal Legislature, making laws coming from two distinctly different >points of view, maintaining State's Rights with a balance of influence >between the States and the Federal Government. This Legislative check and >balance were destroyed in 1913, (eighty-six years ago). The appointment of >U.S. Senators by State Legislators was replaced by popular vote. This >change was made in a period when force s were moving our Nation toward a >more dominant central government. In the same year, 1913, this movement >also brought Federal Reserve Banking and the FEDERAL INCOME TAX. >With Unlimited taxing power and limitless spending, we have a Federal >Government that is "out of control." This is the opinion of most Democrat >and Republican State Legislatures. >YOU can take an important step in bringing the Federal Government back in >control while at the same time restoring much of the original structure of >our CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC, with equal partnership between Federal and >State Governments. >James,Madison expressed in the Federalist Papers, "The State Legislature is >the 'Voice of the State'and must be the vehicle for implementing States' >Rights through selection of the U.S. Senators; ONLY THEN, shall the balance >of power between the State and Federal Government be MAINTAINED in the U.S. >Legislature." Was this basic structure of our Constitution altered? >The last sentence of Article V of the Constitution clearly specifies, "NO >STATE, WITHOUT ITS CONSENT, SHALL BE DEPRIVED ITS EQUAL SUFFRAGE IN THE >SENATE." This is the key to States' Right's and States'Sovereignty! Each >State Legislature has the right to choose their two U.S. Senators >regardless of how other States select theirs. You will then hold your two >U.S. Senators accountable to your State through State Legislature thereof. >Article 1, Section 3, of the U.S. Constitution, states, "The Senate of the >United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, CHOSEN BY >THE LEGISLATURE THEREOF, for six years, and each Senator shall have one vote." >In 1931 an Archive Research Study (U.S. Senate Document # 240) was made by >the U.S. Senate in all forty-eight states. This study was to verify proof >of the validity of the ratification of all the Constitutional Amendments. >In 191 3 when three fourths or thirty-six of the then forty-eight States >were needed to ratify an Amendment. The U.S. Senate Study in 1931 >indicated 31 States ratifying the 17th Amendment in 1913, instead of the >necessary 36 States. The State Archive Search in 1996 came to the same >conclusion. The records do not confirm ratification in seventeen >states. Following are the results of this Archive Research. >- Five States (Kentucky, Maryland, Mississippi, Virginia, and >Alabama) were not in session in 1913 and never considered the 17th Amendment. >- Georgia and Rhode Island (issue died in Committee) >- South Carolina (postponed the issue) >- Florida (never reached the State Senate) >- Utah and Delaware (rejected the 17th Amendment) >- Maine and New Hampshire's votes and procedure were questionable >(voice vote only). >Maine's record of voting in either chamber is nonexistent. New Hampshire's >record of State Senate vote is nonexistent. >- The States of North Carolina, Connecticut, and Massachusetts show >no record of a vote in one or both Legislative Chambers. >Louisiana passed in May 1914 (one year after the facts) >Regardless, the political pundits did not have the commission for changing >our Basic form of Government. >THE CONCLUSION-IS -- THE 17TH AMENDMENT WAS NEVER PROPERLY RATIFIED. >You may ask, "Why hasn't this question of validity been addressed through >the Federal Courts?" The answer is, it has been addressed several >times. However, the usual court answer, "It is too late to do anything >about this Amendment because it is already built into our System of >Government." This issue was set aside, by the 7th Federal Circuit Court >over a decade ago. (Law of Prescription) >As for the American people they are mostly honest and hard working. They >are our nation's taxpayers and they know right from wrong-The problem with >this amendment is :ust a simple math problem in addition and it is never >too late to correct a problem most especially when it completely changes >the intent of our Founding Fathers who gave us the most perfect government >the world has ever known. Since this amendment was never properly >ratified, it is the duty of each State Legislature to select two of their >members to represent their respective State in the United States Senate as >set forth in the United States Constitution ratified in 1787. >Let us live up to the intention of our Country's Founders and take action >on this part of our Constitution; whereby, you, the State Legislators may >select your two U.S. Senators. It's up to YOU -not the Federal Courts to >bring back what we yearn for -- a Federal Government under better control, >whereby, you in the State Legislature may have a say in Federal Taxation >and spending. Now is your opportunity to take immediate action on this >important issue by returning to our Constitutional Republic. >FOLLOWING IS THE BILL OR RESOLUTION TO BE INTRODUCED IN EACH STATE FOR >ACTIVATIND STATE LEGISLATIVE SELECTION OF THE TWO UNITED STATES SENATORS >THEREOF >1. Continuation or curtailment of the terms of the present U.S. >Senators to be left to the discretion of the State Legislatures thereof. >2. The wages of a U.S. Senator appointed by a State Leciislature shall >be paid by that State, and that Senator shall be accountable to the State >Legislature thereof. >3. The last clause of Article V of the U.S. Constitution specifies; >"...THAT NO STATE, WITHOUT ITS CONSENT SHALL BE DEPRIVED OF ITS EQUAL >SUFFRAGE IN THE SENATE." (This is the key to the very existence of States' >rights in the U.S. Senate) >4. States choosing to implement Article V shall activate Article 1, >Section 3 of the U.S. Constitution. "The Senate of the United States shall >be composed of two Senators from each State, CHOSEN BY THE LEGISLATURE >THEREOF, for six years, and each Senator shall have one vote." >5. The Federal Courts shall have no commission in this basic structure >of our Government. (The Constitutional Republic) > >6. The States built and implemented our basic Constitution form of >Government including the Federal Courts -- It's the Commission of the >States -- not the Federal Courts -- to maintain this basic Governmental >structure -- the product of the constitutional convention in 1787. >7. There shall be NO ATTEMPT to use this Resolution as a vehicle to >open up a Constitutional Convention. It is not a question of altering this >excellent form of Government, but it is.a question of adhering to the basic >premises of this important document -- THE CONSTITUTION. >Submitted by, >Grandmothers for Honest Government > >Working for better government today and all of our tomorrows asking nothing >for ourselves. >Myra Davis-Dippel, President > >P.O. Box 6934 - Tyler, Texas 75711 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [slickplus] Rich's Rants: Absolute power Corrupts (fwd) Date: 15 Apr 2000 08:38:55 PST On Apr 15, RichSlick@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] What are you doing this Wednesday? I'll be at Mount Carmel in Waco remembering the blackest day in U.S. history. From the Home of Rich & Peggy Martin Grand Prairie, TX 75050 RichSlick@aol.com "Almost anyone can stand adversity. To test a person's character, give him or her power." - Abraham Lincoln _______________________________________________ RICH'S RANTS 'Twas the Night before Christmas, actually, 'twas about a month before, we decided if we were to give the children a good Christmas, Peggy would have to get a Christmas job. We had one of our famous, or infamous, family meetings to discuss "Mom working outside of the home." The teenagers liked the idea of getting a lot of presents, so the die was cast. They agreed to pick up the slack in Peggy's absence. Now you've got to know, this was no mean feat. We had 2 teenagers watching 4 young 'uns. They'd have to watch the kids for about 2 hours each evening, between 4 to 6, and longer on days I went to school. And other chores were making dinner, doing the laundry and washing dishes. Still, we thought: they were 15 and 14, and if it didn't work, oh well, we tried. It did work out okay, but that isn't why I recount this life experience. The first day Peggy went to work was a school night for me. I rolled in full of skepticism around 9 PM. To my surprise, my fears were not realized. The house was orderly and quiet. The two youngest were already in bed (we had staggered bedtimes, 30 minutes apart, starting with the youngest, dictated by the fact we had but a single bathroom). With a sigh of relief, I thanked the oldest kids, and then went into the bathroom before the next half hour cycle started. That's when I noticed a sign, all in capitals: PUT LID DOWN WHEN THROUGH. When I returned to the kitchen, I saw a sign I missed earlier: put dishes in sink. Taped to the side of the washer was a sign: "<---- whites colored ----- >". The house was covered in signs, "no jumping on the bed", "no drinks after 8"; "put garbage in pail"; "DO NOT FEED FISH", "no TV until homework is finished", and so on. All together there had to be 10 signs or more. When Peg got home we had a good laugh about it, and decided we could make it thru the holiday season. Yesterday I left the house, as I always do, took a right at the light, on 2nd street. At the next corner there were 3 lights, one over each lane and one on the corner. When I got to Small Street, I was faced with 3 similar signals again. This was the first cross road, so there were 12 control lights, 3 from each direction. These were all hung on tornado proof metal poles. All this, and I was only half way to Main Street. I'm not sure what it means, but I became acutely aware of the eerie similarities with my decades old experience back in Lynn, MA. The Grand Prairie powers employed the same techniques to traffic control as my older kids used to control their brother and younger sisters. (Forget that 2 of them were preschool age, and couldn't read their signs.) Why does it take 3 top-of-the-line traffic signals to tell me to stop or go at virtually every intersection? Is it because they don't trust me to see/obey a single signal stuck on a pole? Why do they need a dozen lights using 3 doz bulbs to tell me if it was safe to go (assuming the guy on the cross street didn't jump the light). Did they forget, I've got eyes and a brain too? These modern metal posts with their overhanging lights must cost tens of thousands of dollars. I know they don't have to pay for them, we do. Perhaps you think I'm some kind of nut worrying about how much electric 36 bulbs at every intersection costs, NOT. Govt wastes much more money than that everyday before they turn the switchboard on in the morning. What bothers me is: the Fathers of the City think they have the right to control me just like my teenagers tried controlling their siblings; and I don't respond well to being controlled like a 4-year- old. Further, it doesn't say much for their leadership skills when they act like a couple of teenagers. Let me leave you with this one sobering thought, a thought our Forefathers knew all too well, when they designed our Constitution based on checks-and-balances: "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely." Author Unknown. To join/quit this list, send a blank email to join-slickplus@lists.spunge.org leave-slickplus@lists.spunge.org Nothing could be easier. See that circle on your calendar around April 19? That's supposed to remind you to go to the Davidian Memorial on that day. Hope to see you there. THE TRUTH IS... A. Powerful. C. In the eye of the beholder. B. Irrelevant. D. All of the above. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [slick-d] Gun-rights groups gang up on NRA. (fwd) Date: 15 Apr 2000 08:37:47 PST On Apr 15, Odell Harwell wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] -------- Original Message -------- Gun-rights groups gang up on NRA http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_bresnahan/20000415_xex_gunrights_gr.shtml Gun-rights groups gang up on NRA Accuse 2nd-Amendment giant of aiding gun-control efforts By David M. Bresnahan © 2000 WorldNetDaily.com A coalition of gun-rights organizations is attacking the National Rifle Association over the NRA's support of a program that attempts to hold the line on new gun control legislation by calling for strict enforcement of existing laws. Citizens of America already has the support of many national pro-gun organizations who have agreed to a declaration of opposition for the NRA's Project Exile. Citizens Of America http://www.citizensofamerica.org/ Exile Denouncement -- KeepAndBearArms.org http://www.keepandbeararms.org/exile_denouncement.htm The NRA, long critical of the Clinton administration for its failure to enforce existing gun laws and constantly battling efforts by gun-control advocates to pass newer and ever-more-restrictive gun laws, has endorsed the adoption of "Project Exile" -- which would require strict, mandatory enforcement of existing laws. The problem, according to the coalition of gun-rights groups, is that many of the existing laws whose enforcement is promoted by Project Exile are themselves unconstitutional and should never have been passed. Gun-rights activist Brian Puckett decided to challenge the policy of the NRA by forming the coalition and writing the statement to which member organizations have agreed. The statement calls for the NRA to drop its support of Project Exile and asserts that NRA leaders are actually helping gun-control advocates. National organizations that have joined the coalition and approved the statement include: Larry Pratt, executive director, Gun Owners of America Aaron Zelman, executive director, Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership Steve Silver, president, Lawyers Second Amendment Society Nancy Herrington, executive vice president, Women Against Gun Control Russ Howard, executive director, Citizens Against Corruption Leroy Pyle, president, Paul Revere Network; executive director, Law Enforcement Alliance of America The statement was also agreed to by many state and local gun-rights organizations and Puckett says others are being asked to come onboard. The statement and a full list of supporters is displayed on the organization's website, while a separate website was created for members of the general public who want to add their name to the list. "Project Exile" Condemnation Coalition Petition http://www.petitiononline.com/exile/petition.html Puckett believes many gun owners give automatic support to the NRA's positions without taking the time to educate themselves on the issues. In an effort to inform gun owners, Puckett formed a coalition of gun rights groups and leaders when he created Citizens of America. He describes his supporters as "true pro-Constitution, pro-Second Amendment people and organizations." Speaking for himself, and not necessarily representing the views of the coalition of gun groups opposing Project Exile, Puckett told WND: The NRA is a great and powerful tool for upholding the Bill of Rights and it must be directed by men and women with a clear vision of these rights. One should never confuse the NRA or its members with the current leadership, the so-called 'winning team,' which has presided over the most profound and far-reaching losses of our Second Amendment Rights since the 1968 Gun Control Act. The 'winning team's attacks on the enemies of the Bill of Rights have been timid, misdirected, and ineffectual. And now we have their Project Exile -- a complete reversal of position on unconstitutional gun laws. It is an utter betrayal of NRA membership and the organization's proud heritage. NRA president Charlton Heston spoke about the controversial initiative in a recent speech. "For years the NRA has demanded that Project Exile be deployed nationwide. Makes sense, huh? The laws are already on the books. Just enforce them. But Bill Clinton won't do it," said Heston in a speech at Yale. Puckett and his coalition of supporters believe Heston and other NRA leaders are advocating the support of laws that should not be on the books at all. The NRA claims it is all just a matter of strategy. It doesn't want any more laws enacted and has adopted what it considers an undeniably logical position -- require the government to enforce existing laws before making new ones. Indeed, Heston blames Clinton for enacting laws simply for political gain without any effort to enforce them once they are established. "Everyone remembers all the press support for his 'desperately needed' semi-auto gun ban that outlawed guns based solely on their appearance. But nobody is reporting that out of thousands of certain offenders, the Clinton administration prosecuted four people in 1997 and four in 1998," said Heston. "It's surreal. Mr. Clinton stands in the Rose Garden with his 10 prop-cops, lip-biting in pained support of some new law. The press does its best to get it passed. It becomes law. Then everybody forgets about it. And Americans buy it over and over and over again," said Heston. "Maybe you think a politician's lies can't hurt you. But let me tell you, armed felons can. Passing laws is what keeps politicians' careers alive. Enforcing laws is what keeps you alive. But nobody's getting arrested, nobody's going to jail, it's all a giant scam," said the NRA president. Larry Pratt, executive director of Gun Owners of America and one of Puckett's biggest supporters, told WorldNetDaily it's wrong to enforce laws that should not have been passed. He went so far as to claim that "most if not all existing gun laws are unconstitutional." "American firearm owners and supporters of the Bill of Rights have invested countless millions of dollars and man-hours to prevent these same laws from ever being passed. Clear-thinking Americans continue to work tirelessly to repeal them," said Puckett (in his statement signed by Pratt and the other gun rights supporters). The coalition was also critical of federal law enforcement agencies and the use of technical violations of the law to harass innocent people. "There is no connection between supporting the Bill of Rights and supporting federal laws that are un-American. Moreover, the agencies that enforce such laws slaughtered over 80 people in Waco, shot to death a young boy and his mother at Ruby Ridge and continually commit brutal acts against citizens under the guise of 'gun control.' The 'legal' excuse behind the Waco massacre was the unproved suspicion of 'illegal' machine-gun possession. The 'legal' excuse behind the Ruby Ridge killings was a shotgun that may have been a quarter inch too short. Both are examples of 'zero tolerance,'" said the group in its statement. The NRA has spoken out strongly in support of the enforcement of federal laws regarding the illegal possession of firearms by juveniles. "Armed gangbangers should be afraid of getting caught. But, in the past two years, the President's Justice Department has prosecuted only 11 juveniles anywhere in the country for illegal possession of handguns," said LaPierre in a recent speech. But, according to Puckett and his group of supporters, despite LaPierre's good intentions there will be many problems for innocent gun owners if laws are strictly enforced. "This could be your 15-year-old boy to whom you have given a .22 revolver to go shoot cans at a rural dump or out at the country home of a friend. You, yourself, can be criminally prosecuted for giving him the gun," explained Puckett about his concern of enforcement of existing laws. The NRA does not want any minors to possess a firearm of any kind unless supervised by an adult at all times. LaPierre said adults must be held accountable for minors who gain access to firearms. "So we support mandatory penalties for juvenile criminals caught carrying guns. But out of the thousands of these armed, teen thugs, we believe the Clinton Justice Department should have prosecuted more than just 3 in 1997 and 8 in 1998. That's not zero tolerance," said LaPierre. Puckett said such a policy will make a young boy a felon if he is left alone with a rifle while out hunting with his father and the father will also become a criminal. Most states require a concealed carry permit for those who wish to have a firearm with them in public. This is another area where the NRA and the coalition differ in opinion. "We believe that a lawful, properly-permitted citizen who chooses to carry a concealed firearm not only deserves that right but is a deterrent to crime. We support the right to carry because it has helped cut crime rates in all 31 states that have adopted it ... with almost no abuse of any kind by the lawful citizens who took the courses, submitted to the background checks, passed the tests and became part of a proud citizens movement that's making America a safer place to live. The truth is, very few actually choose to carry a gun -- but the bad guys don't know which few they are," explained LaPierre. "So much for the Second Amendment. A right that requires getting a permit to exercise isn't a right, its a privilege granted by the government and revocable by the government," criticized Puckett. The group has also called for the repeal of "all laws which infringe upon the right of Americans to freely carry arms in defense of self, family, and country." David M. Bresnahan is an investigative journalist for WorldNetDaily.com [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - > > > >NOTE: Myra and I have been working on this for several years. This letter >was sent to all of the State Legislatures of the 50 States United. It needs >to be done again. Myra has had a stroke and can not do any work on this >for the time being or may never be able to. In my opinion it would be nice >if a group from every state would pick up the work and carry it through >your State Legislature and get the 17th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution >voided and give States control over their Senators in Washington, D.C. >again. If you have time please send Myra a Get Well Card. >Rocky [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Heads Up #179 (fwd) Date: 16 Apr 2000 08:09:15 PST On Apr 16, Doug Fiedor wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Heads Up A Weekly View from the Foothills of Appalachia April 16, 2000 #179 by: Doug Fiedor fiedor19@eos.net Previous Editions at: http://www.uhuh.com/reports/headsup/list-hu.htm GUNS, POLITICIANS AND AIRCRAFT Way back when, in the days when most commercial aircraft had propellers and a ride that would usually vibrate your dinner off of the tray if you weren't careful, it was very common for us to board a plane armed. In those days, many of us carried a 357 magnum which, because of its size, I always referred to as a "semi" concealed weapon. Nothing was ever said about guns on aircraft until some idiot calling himself D.B. Cooper managed to successfully hijack one. Just after a couple Cooper copycats tried something similar, the frequent flyers of the Congressional class got interested. Because, if a plane they were on was hijacked, they could actually be late for a fund-raiser luncheon, a lobbyist funded vacation, or something. Can't have that. So suddenly, most Americans could no longer carry a gun on a commercial aircraft. Gun-toting on busses and trains was fine, because Members of Congress do not normally use them. Packing heat on commercial aircraft became verboten. Ditto for bombs. No one knows of any American (except police officers) ever actually trying to board a commercial aircraft carrying a bomb. But, heck, better to be safe than sorry said the frequent flyers in the Congressional class. So, nowadays even the baggage that is checked is checked. Many airports, like the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky Airport, carry that trend one step further. They have money police there too. That is, if any of the airport employees see an aircraft passenger or airport visitor with a roll of cash, they call the special airport cops and the nice officers relieve that person of the burden of carrying so much cash. Then, they share part of the illicit cash with the airport employee who fingered the beleaguered person. It's all quite legal, too -- so they try to say. You see, they're looking for illegal drugs. And money, of course, may be used to purchase illegal drugs someday. So, they take the cash. The current drug cops at the Cincinnati Airport must really be doing a great job, too. They haven't found a lot of drugs, but they have relieved a whole lot of people of large stashes of personal cash. Apparently, the Cincinnati airport cops are not very good at finding guns, though. Kentucky State Rep. Pete Worthington (D-Ewing) tested that a while back. Worthington caught a flight to the Dallas-Fort Worth Airport with a .22-caliber handgun in his carry-on baggage. He made it to Dallas just fine. But when he tried to come back they noticed the gun. And not knowing that he was a member of the protected class, they stopped him. Worthington says he carries that handgun (without a permit) with him everywhere, and just "forgot" it was in the bag. Also, he didn't like being stopped and bothered. So, he called his buddy Kentucky House Speaker Jody Richards. Jody Richards, also a Democrat, then called his counterpart in Texas. The good old boy system worked, and Worthington came right home. As the story goes, the Kentucky prosecutor responsible for charging Worthington (the Cincinnati Airport is in Kentucky) said he can not charge Worthington cause no one saw him with a gun here -- no matter that Worthington admits he had it with him while boarding the aircraft. And, of course, the Texas prosecutor is not interested in pressing charges, either. Now . . . we do not really believe that Worthington, or anyone else for that matter, should be prosecuted for something as silly as taking a little handgun on a commercial aircraft. However, because he is a legislator -- a lawmaker -- and that is the law, we feel that the State House should censure him. And, as part of his punishment, he should be required to spend a year working to have many of these stupid laws repealed. Maybe he could do something to stop that crew with badges and guns from stealing people's money, too. Meanwhile, let this be just another example that there is no "equal justice" under the law. Congress gave us a class system. There's the elected ones and their friends, the bureaucrats, and then the normal citizens. And as we are seeing -- over and over again, and in all levels of government from the White House on down -- only the citizens are required to obey all laws. Yes, we still have something referred to as the "Rule of Law." It's just that the Lords and Ladies of the Hill rearranged it to fit their own personal needs more adequately. BUYING POLITICAL INFLUENCE Who was it recently that said campaign contributions do not buy political influence? All we have to say about that is that person is either a damn liar or an ignorant fool. Documents subpoenaed from the DNC and the White House by Congress show that the DNC provided the Clinton administration with a "must consider" list of names of major campaign contributors for posts in the administration. Yeah, you read that correctly. Major campaign contributors actually put their names on a "wish list" for the position of power each contributor sought within the administration. A memo the Democratic Party sent to the White House in December 1992 described the job candidates as "leading national fund-raisers." And, the new administration was expected to "pay off" with a cushy position of influence. And folks, the list contained "dozens" of names, most of whom did, in fact, get rewarded with positions of authority (over you) within the administration. For instance, John Huang (remember him?) was recommended by the DNC for a sub-Cabinet level job at the Commerce Department. Arthur Levitt wanted to be rewarded as ambassador to Germany or Mexico or a potential member of the National Economic Council, but ended up chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission. Erskine Bowles bought a position as administrator of the Small Business Administration -- then became White House chief of staff. Kenneth Brody bought an appointment as president of the Export-Import Bank. A few others bought ambassador positions. And so on. To these people, campaign contributions are an investment. Either they personally get in a position to "help" themselves and their friends make money, or they "buy" the influence of someone in a position to do it for them. Again, remember John Haung and all the money laundering connections to the evil communist Chinese and their big business interests? Contributing to Congress can only influence a few votes. Buying influence in the administrative branch can provide a whole host of immediately profitable advantages over business competitors. The cold hard fact is that the administrative branch can change and/or ignore any and all rules or regulations with only the stroke of a pen. We citizens do not have the bucks to pay to have that done. Multinational business executives and corrupt foreign governments like China, however, do. Of course, politicians euphemistically call these payments "campaign contributions." In practice, though, it is the direct purchase of political influence. In reality, contributors can actually "buy" laws, or positions, to control American citizens. That might sound a bit preposterous in the United States. But the fact is that the practice has been going on behind closed doors for years. This money exchange is the driving force behind many hundreds of the rules and regulations affecting our lives. From food processing to the Freon ban, regulations were all intentionally influenced by corporations purchasing political influence for monetary gain. The Clinton Administration, however, perfected that type of bribery to a political art form. FBI CONTROLS THE NEWS Those darn U-Hall trucks keep popping up all over the country. So, when the FBI released an all points bomb alert for two or more guys in a U-Hall a couple years ago, they were flooded with calls. It was a "terrorist threat advisory," the feds said. They had reports about two men seen in a small Texas town with a U-Haul rental truck hauling something. Wow! That sounds criminal to us on this end, too. Then -- gasp -- the men stopped to get 30 gallons of diesel fuel. Yeah, for sure they must be "terrorists." Hell, there couldn't be any other use for diesel fuel out there in the country now, could there? Nope. They must be up to no good. So, whatever the men were hauling in the back of the truck suddenly got upgraded to "thousands of pounds of fertilizer." Hence came the all points bulletin for the truck. Well, heck, that could be enough material to produce a bomb similar to the one that exploded in Oklahoma City. Yeah, must be terrorists, they said. The U-Hall officials said they were cooperating with the FBI. But, as they verified, there were thousands of trucks like that on the road, and there is no telling where that particular truck might be. Then CNN picked up the story, and the FBI had to back down a notch or two. After all, all it takes is one cop with a gun playing hero to really ruin someone's day, and thousands of people fit this profile. Yet another FBI advisory spiced up the story by saying the truck might be carrying 4,500 pounds of ammonium nitrate fertilizer and 30 gallons of diesel fuel. So, news accounts reported that the prosecutors in the Oklahoma City case say that Timothy McVeigh used that combination of material to fashion the bomb that destroyed the federal building. The FBI advisory asked people with any information to call in at a special toll-free number and agents urged the men who had been spotted to call the FBI or the local police "at once because of the possibility that the materials in the truck were meant only for innocent use." Oh? They guessed that, too? Wow, there may be some intelligent life in Washington after all. . . . We, on this end of the false news stories, laughed a lot while wondering which bright light in government -- with obviously not enough work to do -- made up the rumor about that "4,500 pounds of ammonium nitrate." That was, to say the least, rather irresponsible on the part of federal agents. And, it was certainly deserving of severe punishment. As it turned out, the two men lived in the area of Haltom City, outside Fort Worth, said Les Martz, ATF agent in charge of the Dallas division. Agents found the two men by canvassing U-Haul rental outlets and places throughout the Dallas-Fort Worth area where fertilizer is sold. The men "were surprised and they were cooperative," an FBI spokeswoman said. Bet on it! All those FBI and ATF guns would get anyone's attention. Remember Waco? They were hauling "baking powder for use as an antiseptic in scrubbing floors and tiles," a federal law enforcement official in Washington said on condition of anonymity. But wait. . . . Hold on just a darn minute here! What if they really were hauling ammonium nitrate fertilizer in that truck? So what? That was the time of year we country folk start purchasing stuff like that. Because, the men were, by the way, in a rural area. And what would be wrong with bringing home a few gallons of diesel fuel too? It costs more to purchase it that way, but that's their business, not the FBI's. Are all of us to be suspects when we buy fertilizer nowadays? If so, watch for another alert sometime next week -- this time on a blue Plymouth Minivan -- because it's time to get busy here, too. And, yes, we may be getting some ammonium nitrate fertilizer. INTERESTING LEGAL TERMS Below are a few legal terms that seem to apply to the current news reports. These are provided only because they offer interesting insight into what some lawyers in the Department of Justice may (or should) be thinking if they read the same news reports we do. Just for kicks, we picked the oldest law dictionary on our shelf: "The Cyclopedic Law Dictionary" by James C. Cahill, dated 1922. This dictionary was chosen because it was published before American law was corrupted by the FDR administration. Conspiracy: "A combination of two or more persons by some concerted action to accomplish some criminal or unlawful purpose, or to accomplish some purpose, not itself criminal or unlawful, by criminal or unlawful means." Clinton, Clinton & Gore immediately come to mind when the term "conspiracy" is mentioned. Malfeasance: "The unjust performance of some act which the party had no right, or which he had contracted not, to do." When we consider the written words of the Constitution, the term malfeasance brings to mind many laws passed by Congress, many executive orders and most regulatory rules and regulations. Misfeasance: "The performance of an act which might lawfully be done, in an improper manner, by which another person receives an injury." Misfeasance seems to be the kissing cousin of malfeasance in that all the very same examples seem to fit perfectly. Most public servants continuously violate their oath of office. Nonfeasance: "The neglect or failure of a person to do some act which he ought to do. The term is not generally used to denote a breach of contract, but rather the failure to perform a duty towards the public whereby some individual sustains special damage, as where a sheriff fails to execute a writ. "When a legislative act requires a person to do a thing, its nonfeasance will subject the party to punishment; as, if a statute require the supervisors of the highways to repair such highways, the neglect to repair them may be punished." So, were "nonfeasance" enforced properly, lawmakers not strictly enforcing the Bill of Rights could be prosecuted and sent to prison. So could any police, prosecutor or judge enforcing an unconstitutional law. Last but not least comes a term from a thirty year old political dictionary of obviously liberal bent. We chose this book because we believe that, when the subject at hand is the behavior of liberal politicians, it is probably best to define the terms the way the liberal politicians understand them. And, this term was once a real favorite of the socialist reactionaries among us: Civil Disobedience: "Refusal to obey a law, usually on the ground that the law is morally reprehensible. Recent examples of civil disobedience include Negro refusals to obey segregation laws and actions of anti-Vietnam war groups in refusing to honor draft regulations. Civil disobedience ordinarily takes the form of nonviolent resistance and is aimed at arousing public opinion against the law." ~ End ~ [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: McGehee's News & Comment - April 17,2000 (fwd) Date: 16 Apr 2000 14:11:32 PST On Apr 16, The McGehee Zone wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] McGEHEE'S NEWS & COMMENT (c) 2000 KEVIN McGEHEE Newnan, Georgia mail@mcgeheezone.com http://www.mcgeheezone.com/ Permission granted to anyone wishing to forward, redistribute, or broadcast this article WITH FULL ATTRIBUTION. ================================================================ TOO CLOSE FOR COMFORT? It's not often you find a juicy news item in *TV Guide,* but on Page 81 of the issue for the week of April 15-21 there's an item that caught my eye. Apparently, CNN and National Public Radio had to show a couple of interns the door after it was discovered that they were not journalism students, but personnel from the U.S. Army's Psychological Operations (PSYOP) unit. According to the article by J. Max Robins, PSYOP's people "are often trained in the production of videos as well as television and radio programming used to advance American policy abroad." In other words, the Army's PSYOP people are involved in disseminating propaganda overseas in support of whatever U.S. policy objectives may be active in a particular region. CNN and NPR were shocked -- SHOCKED! -- to discover that there were avowed propagandists working behind the scenes at their respective networks, and terminated the interns forthwith. Their press releases made it clear they didn't want anyone thinking they'd been used to disseminate propaganda in support of American policy objectives. They insisted that the interns were let in as a result of some low-level bureaucratic snafu and that the internships in question were never -- NEVER! -- approved by upper management. For his part, the Army officer interviewed for the article says the internships were part of the PSYOP unit's training program: "The programs were an opportunity for some of our people to learn at the feet of the masters." * * * WHAT IS BEST FOR THIS CHILD? To hear the U.S. Justice Department and its supporters tell it, the law is rigid and absolute when one of a child's parents dies: the other parent is guaranteed custody. For Elian Gonzalez, that interpretation of the law means being sent back to Cuba, a totalitarian country his mother died to get him out of, where he will be considered property of Fidel Castro. At age 11 (at the latest), Elian will be taken away from his foster parent (which, under Cuban law, is what a child's biological parents are) and put to work as an unpaid farmhand in order to finance his mandatory Communist education. And that's assuming he gets to lead what passes for a "normal" life in Cuba. Given his exposure to the material wealth his emigre relatives have amassed since escaping Castro's iron fist, it's unlikely Elian will have a smooth time unlearning freedom and capitalism in a Castro school. And they don't settle for holding such problem students back a grade. Given these facts, the question should not be whether prospective foster parent Juan Miguel Gonzalez is fit to raise a child -- it's whether Fidel Castro is. We who have never experienced the nightmare of life in a totalitarian hellhole should be listening to those who do know: the Cuban exiles in Miami who have mobilized to prevent Elian's deportation. Reports on television and in the print media telling how good life will be for Elian with his biological father, are the result of guided tours conducted by officials of the Castro regime. If such tours tell an accurate tale of life in today's Cuba, then we should be able to learn all we need to know about life in California by spending a weekend at Disneyland. * * * WANT TO KNOW WHO'S GOING TO WIN? Forget the polls, even Zogby. There's a far more reliable way to predict who's going to be the 43rd President of the United States. Now that the vast majority of votes cast in elections are virtually uninformed votes, the outcome no longer turns on issues or policy statements -- so long as neither major party candidate abandons his own base, at least. Part of the problem is that Big Media has misidentified the big "swing" voter bloc that often decides elections. If you really want to know who's got the best shot at winning, ignore the pundits. Instead, monitor Jay Leno and David Letterman. The caricatures applied to political candidates are what's going to decide the close races. That caricaturing is best determined by how the candidates are portrayed in late-night monologues. For example, once John McCain got labelled as a hothead, no amount of self-deprecating humor on his part could defuse that -- especially when he went ballistic after losing in South Carolina. So with George W. Bush being portrayed as an overgrown, good-timing frat boy, and Al Gore being widely seen as delusional (where once he was merely boring), you should be able to get an idea of which is more likely to be regarded by today's disengaged voter as the less dangerous choice. If the image applied to Bush bothers you, don't forget that Ronald Reagan was once widely portrayed in late-night monologues as an amiable dunce -- doddering, forgetful, and prone to nodding off at the drop of a hat. Yet the late-night audience helped give Reagan his high approval ratings and his 49-state re-election victory. It's been a long time since the voting bloc that we might call "The Ignoramus Vote" valued attentiveness to business in a President. This is not to say that the trends in pop-culture caricaturing are already set in stone. Either Bush or Gore could say or do something between now and Election Day that breaks him or his opponent out of the present mold and recasts the campaign for the ignoramus vote. But right now that bloc is Bush's to lose. -30- April 17, 2000 ================================================================ This article can also be read online at http://www.mcgeheezone.com/news&comment/2000/0417.htm The views expressed herein are entirely those of the author(s), and do not reflect those of any person or group with whom the author(s) may be affiliated, unless explicitly labelled as doing so. --... ...-- -.. . -.- .-.. ----- - -.-- [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Charley Reese on gun control (fwd) Date: 18 Apr 2000 22:46:37 PST On Apr 19, RJK.Sr. wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] By Charley Reese Columnist If the homicide rate is falling, if the fatalities from firearms accidents are the lowest they've been since 1902, why do you suppose some people are so fiendishly insistent on more gun control? You ought to think about that. It's already against the law for a convicted felon to purchase or possess a firearm; it's already against the law for a minor to purchase or possess a handgun; there is already a law requiring background checks on gun buyers; gun dealers are already heavily regulated; many states have laws to punish adults for failure to store guns safely. Why then do people insist that more laws are needed? Why do they clamor for safer guns when firearm accidents account for only 1,400 of the 90,000 accidental deaths annually in the United States? Well, I personally think that their motive has nothing to do with fighting crime or with safety. After all, firearms are dead last as a cause of accidental fatalities among both children and adults. Doctors, we now know, kill three times as many Americans annually from mistakes than firearms kill, counting homicides, suicides and accidents. I think that the answer is both old and simple. Gun-control laws have always been elitist and racist. Elitists have always wanted to disarm the common folks while, of course, retaining the privileges of arms for themselves. And the right to keep and bear arms has always been a populist cause. James Madison boasted to a European critic that the new country of America, unlike his country, did not fear its own people and allowed them to own arms. In fact, that Second Amendment right to keep and own arms is one of the things that makes America unique. Many countries protect speech and assembly and so forth. Almost no other protects the right of its people to keep arms. You may, of course, think that the Second Amendment is obsolete. I would ask you to reconsider that. If you noticed in the last Los Angeles riot, neither the police nor the military was on hand initially to protect people's lives and property. The people had to protect themselves, and they did it with firearms. This is always true in a major disaster -- at least initially. Any honest cop will tell you that if you are attacked by a criminal, on the street or in your home, you are on your own. It's up to you to defend yourself and your family. If you think that you are physically fit enough to disarm armed intruders, then more power to you. But every martial artist I have known says there is no substitute for a handgun when it comes to serious self-defense. If the only things needed to prevent crimes were laws and policemen, then there wouldn't be any crime statistics. But every murder, every rape victim is testimony to the fact that neither the law nor the police can protect individuals from criminal attackers. On the other hand, very respectable studies have shown that firearms are used by Americans more than a million times a year to prevent crimes, usually without having to be fired. It used to be said in America that God created people but that Samuel Colt (inventor of the revolver) made them equal. Indeed, a firearm is an equalizer. With a gun, an elderly person or a woman or a small, sickly man can stand up to a young and large thug. It was the invention of firearms that ultimately ended the practice of professional warriors being the ruling class. It seems as self-evident to me as it was to the Founding Fathers that a people disarmed by their government cannot purport to be free. The bottom line remains: Force rules. Therefore, if you allow the government to have a monopoly on force, then you can never purport to be a free person. Published in The Orlando Sentinel on April 18, 2000 [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: larry ball Subject: [Fwd: Unite] Date: 19 Apr 2000 19:30:29 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------38D53243EF0D9B63D23761B5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What do you think, gang? Is it time to unite? Anyone for tennis, or ????? Larry Ball lball@inetnebr.com --------------38D53243EF0D9B63D23761B5 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from unlinfo.unl.edu (unlinfo.unl.edu [129.93.1.11]) by pigeon.inebraska.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA04306 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 11:34:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from earth.electro-net.com ([199.44.160.5]) by unlinfo.unl.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA18922 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 11:33:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fatman (Dlp-016.electro-net.com [199.44.160.51]) by earth.electro-net.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA12441 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 12:23:50 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 CONFEDERATE STATES OF AMERICA Wednesday, April 19, 2000 Mr. Ball: Greetings on this infamous of days, April 19th. As you are well aware the unity among the militia's of this nation is something that is extremely lacking. We must unite against the monster of our present godless "federals" who wish to abolish individual and states rights. Larry, I would ask you and others to consider banding together with us in a truly united front against federal terrorism. Richard Ainsworth Confederate States of America Southern States Congress http://www.afn.org/~mpress/ --------------38D53243EF0D9B63D23761B5-- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [Fratrum] [Fwd: [Lis-LEAF] A proposal to make Congress accountable] (fwd) Date: 19 Apr 2000 23:39:40 PST We should be pushing this on the State level, too! On Apr 19, Margi Crook wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] The following article presents the problem that a majority of members of Congress are now willing to pass legislation they know to be unconstitutional, passing the buck to the federal courts to declare it unconstitutional. The problem, of course, leaving aside the abdication of their sworn duty, is that there is no way the federal courts can keep up with the pace of legislation. The Supreme Court can handle only about 75 cases a year, and it has other cases to attend to besides reviewing new congressional acts. Following the article is a proposal to make Congress accountable. Urge your members to introduce and support it. ------------------------ Scalia Criticizes Congress Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia chastised Congress on Tuesday for enacting provisions that allow quick court review of new laws that push "the edge of the constitutional envelope." "I think that is disturbing because it indicates that Congress is increasingly abdicating its independent responsibility to be sure that it is being faithful to the Constitution," the justice told a telecommunications symposium sponsored by Michigan State University. "My court is fond of saying that acts of Congress come to the court with the presumption of constitutionality," Scalia said. "But if Congress is going to take the attitude that it will do anything it can get away with and let the Supreme Court worry about the Constitution ... then perhaps that presumption is unwarranted." Two laws struck down by the Supreme Court in recent years provided speeded-up court review of their provisions. In 1997, the justices threw out a measure that sought to protect children from sexually explicit material on the Internet, and a year later the court threw out Congress' effort to enact a presidential line-item veto. "Congress has in recent years been pushing the edge of the constitutional envelope so aggressively that it has begun to include special review provisions in its more dubious offerings," Scalia said. "If you have a legislature that is eager to push the envelope you should expect a higher percentage of invalidations." ---------------End of Original Message----------------- A proposal to make Congress accountable The following may be introduced as a constitutional amendment, and may also be introduced as ordinary legislation and as revisions to the rules of procedure of each House of Congress: ______ In the event that any act of Congress shall be held unconstitutional, in whole or in part, by the Supreme Court of the United States, each member of each House who voted for the act shall be penalized as follows: 1 - On the first such instance, the privilege of voting for legislation by that member shall be suspended for 2 legislative days; similarly, 2 - On the second such instance, the privilege of voting by that member shall be suspended for 5 legislative days; 3 - On the third such instance, the privilege of voting by that member shall be suspended for 10 legislative days; 4 - On the fourth such instance, the privilege of voting by that member shall be suspended for 20 legislative days; 5 - On the fifth such instance, the seat of that member shall be declared vacant, the member removed from the House and from his office, and his seat filled in accordance with law, except that he shall not be eligible to fill his vacancy, or to ever hold any office of trust of the United States, any State, or any territory of the United States, and to be removed from any such office he might then hold. The suspension shall begin on the first legislative day following the order of the Supreme Court. However, the member shall be counted as present for purpose of establishing a quorum. ______ Spread this proposal far and wide. --Jon =================================================================== Constitution Society, 1731 Howe Av #370, Sacramento, CA 95825 916/568-1022, 916/450-7941VM Date: 04/19/00 Time: 19:56:33 http://www.constitution.org/ mailto:jon.roland@constitution.org =================================================================== Enjoy the award-winning journalism of The New York Times with convenient home delivery. And for a limited time, get 50% off for the first 8 weeks by subscribing. Pay by credit card and receive an additional 4 weeks at this low introductory rate. http://click.egroups.com/1/3102/5/_/655990/_/956199442/ Liberty's Educational Advocacy Forum http://freedomlaw.com promotes "action that raises the cost of State violence for its perpetrators ... lay(ing) the basis for institutional change." [Noam Chomsky] Dr. Tavel's Self Help Clinic and Sovereign Law Library http://drtavel.com/selfhelp.htm Not a high-tech law firm brochure, "because a lawyer is only as smart as you make him" [Max Katz] and "the Law . . . should be accessible to every man and at all times." [Franz Kafka] For Liberty in Our Lifetime, R.J. Tavel, JD, managing partner, Tavel & Stewart, Public Interest Law Firm, Bringing you "a whole new boutique of wonderful First Amendment litigation." [J. Scalia] http://freedomlaw.com/T&S/ NEW: SUBSCRIBE TO Lis-LEAF the Learning Electronically About Freedom mailing service at http://freedomlaw.com/FORM.html Community email addresses: Unsubscribe: Lis-LEAF-unsubscribe@onelist.com List owner: Lis-LEAF-owner@onelist.com Shortcut URL to this page: http://www.onelist.com/community/Lis-LEAF [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: CITIZENS OF AMERICA UPDATE (Fight For Gun Rights Successfully) (fwd) Date: 19 Apr 2000 23:40:36 PST On Apr 19, Weldon Clark wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] CITIZENS OF AMERICA UPDATE (Fight For Gun Rights Successfully) Ladies and Gentlemen: In case you're new on our list, Citizens Of America (COA) is a new non-profit organization that produces, distributes, and runs NATIONAL PRO-FIREARM advertisements. To learn more, or to hear our radio ads, go to: http://www.citizensofamerica.org Now-- the COA UPDATE: ***NEW -- our COA Ad Coordinator Program is producing its first results, mulitiplying the effect of your donations: 1. CA/San Jose/Bay Area -- 30 COA radio ads run in prime drive time during one week period in a high-priority area. Thanks to activist Michael Pelletier and his pro-2A associates. 2. NY/Albany/Capitol District -- 10 COA radio ads run during prime drive time in a high-priority area. Thanks to activist Michael Zabriskie and his pro-2A associates. Other coordinators are reporting in with locally gathered funds to run COA ads. These ads were paid for DIRECTLY by citizens in the above areas. To find out about being a coordinator and helping us run ads in your area, (it's easy) go to: http://www.citizensofamerica.org/RunOurAds.htm and read down through the coordinator section. ***NEW -- COA supporter Rod Jacobs has provided us with an updated version of a videotape containing changing graphics and repeating audio of COA's radio ads. This tape is now available to run on ANY COMMUNITY ACCESS TELEVISION C|HANNEL. The tape is FREE and the cost of running it is ZERO. All you have to do is submit it to your CATV station--by law they MUST run it. For details go to the homepage and click the COA VIDEOTAPE button. ***NEW -- COA President Brian Puckett quoted in WND: the quote printed was not precise, but the sentiment surely is: the government of California lies, has no respect for the Bill of Rights, and is going forward with gun confiscation. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_dougherty/20000316_ xnjdo_senate_con.shtml ***NEW -- We have 2 print ads available to be run in local, weekly or daily publications. A third is on the way. The cost of running such ads is often quite small--and you can choose the size of the ad you want to run. Want to strike back at the "mainstream media" and this administrations lies about guns? Run these ads in your area! Go to the homepage and click the COA Ad Video Button. ***NEW -- In case you missed the last COA update, you should click the new "PRODUCTS and PROGRAMS Benefitting COA" button and see what is currently available. We expect this page to grow. Be sure to note the Springbok Holster offer. ***NEW -- Support COA's national media campaign every time you make a long distance phone call. COA urges you to consider signing up for long distance service from MARATHON LONG DISTANCE. This company was founded primarily to provide funds for pro-firearms rights, pro-self defense organizations. A portion of Marathon's revenues goes right back to the organization you designate as a beneficiary--and we hope you designate Citizens Of America. Marathon's link: http://www.2ndamendment.com/default.htm Click ENTER ***NEW -- We have a COA ad coordinator in WASHINGTON DC. That means he's currently taking contributions to run our ads in DC. While we don't favor one coordinator over another, we would really like to run a series of our ads in DC. Help him --and all of us-- if you can. From our homepage, click the "YOU CAN Run Our Ads" button and scroll to the very end, where coordinators are listed. Send checks to Keith Manne but make them out to "Citizens Of America" with "Deposit to First Federal Bank of California" on the back. VARIOUS ITEMS: ***Richard W. Stevens, not Freeman for 911 and Die, and this description of the book: Dial 911 and Die does more than "expose the facts behind emergency phone service" -- more to the point, it shows state by state that nearly everywhere in the U.S., the police owe no legal duty to protect citizens from crime ... and don't even have to answer 911 calls. We must preserve our right to keep and bear arms because we are ultimately responsible to protect ourselves -- it's the law. Dial 911 and Die is the perfect written proof of the truth of COA's "911 Hell" radio spot. ***Here's a website you might be interested in visiting for items of general interest in the fight to regain our firearms rights: www.gunfax.com ***Gun Owners of America has initiated a boycott of S&W for selling out the 2nd Amendment via caving in to the most corrupt administration in American history, and COA fully support this boycott. We urge you: DO NOT BUY S&W products! To sign a petition to S&W regarding their cave-in to government extortion, go to: http://www.i-charity.net/sw.cgi/ptn/30/tfref/3329 *** If you would like to hear COA President Brian Puckett's Feb 12 interview on the nationally-syndicated radio show, "Tim Kern, Talking Sense," tapes are available at 1-800-205- 6245. REMINDERS: 1. Our ads continue to run across the country as public service announcements and as ads directly paid for by COA supporters. To see where they have run or are running, go to the homepage and click the "STATIONS Where COA Ads Have Run" button. COA also pays to run ads itself, and contributes to Coordinator funds. It takes money to get the message out, but we can't think of a better way to reach the public regarding our right to bear arms than this. 2. Again -- Donate at least $75 to COA ---and get ANY Springbok Kydex CONCEALED CARRY or REGULAR CARRY HOLSTER (or choose any combination of Springbok items totaling less than $57 MSRP) for FREE, including shipping. To take advantage of this offer, go to: http://www.citizensofamerica.org/programs.htm 3. To our supporters: Thank you for your financial help. Producing our pro-firearm ads and keeping them before the public requires continual funding. We don't like asking for contributions, but it must be done. Help fight for our rights-- contribute when you can--and thanks again. 4. PLEASE -- Forward this email to those you think might be interested. ***Citizens Of America*** COA runs a national pro-firearm media campaign--and YOU can help! Support our national pro-gun media campaign Learn more at http://www.citizensofamerica.org --You can now contribute to COAs campaign by CREDIT CARD. See bottom of homepage at http://www.citizensofamerica.org ************************************************************** What To Do If The Police Come To Confiscate Your Militia Weapons see www.2ndamendment.net For legislative updates contact www.nealknox.com and go to "Scripts from the Firearms Coalition Legislative Update Line" ************************************************************* >From The 2ndAmendmentNews Team If you received this as a forward and wish to join please send: E-MAil to listserver@frostbit.com with the following text in the message body: SUBSCRIBE 2nd-Amendment-News We have had a computer error. If you want to be removed send a message to the list administrator, send E-mail to whclark@bellsouth.net If you know anyone who would appreciate these alerts, please let us know and we'll enroll them on a trial basis. Also, feel free to forward our alerts. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: Not even close to sufficient Date: 20 Apr 2000 09:24:33 -0700 A true conservative (Conservator of the Constitution) would make any step exceeding the powers of the gov extremely expensive. If you want a stable gov: Anyone who votes for legislation, and any judge who makes a ruling, which is later found to contravene the Constitution, is removed from office and put on trial for violation of their Oath of Office. Guilt is presumed, and innocence must be established by the defendant. Gov power has an intrinsic high-gain positive feedback loop. Stability can only be obtained by interpreting gov powers in the most restrictive possible way, and the rights of the people in the most liberal way. Lew > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2000 12:40 AM > To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > Subject: [Fratrum] [Fwd: [Lis-LEAF] A proposal to make Congress > accountable] (fwd) > > > We should be pushing this on the State level, too! > > > On Apr 19, Margi Crook wrote: > > [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows > --------------------] > > Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 19:56:33 -0800 > From: Jon Roland > Subject: [Lis-LEAF] A proposal to make Congress accountable > > The following article presents the problem that a majority of members of > Congress are now willing to pass legislation they know to be > unconstitutional, passing the buck to the federal courts to declare it > unconstitutional. The problem, of course, leaving aside the abdication of > their sworn duty, is that there is no way the federal courts can keep up > with the pace of legislation. The Supreme Court can handle only about 75 > cases a year, and it has other cases to attend to besides reviewing new > congressional acts. > > Following the article is a proposal to make Congress accountable. > Urge your > members to introduce and support it. > > ------------------------ > > Scalia Criticizes Congress > > Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia chastised Congress on Tuesday for > enacting provisions that allow quick court review of new laws > that push "the > edge of the constitutional envelope." > > "I think that is disturbing because it indicates that Congress is > increasingly abdicating its independent responsibility to be sure > that it is > being faithful to the Constitution," the justice told a > telecommunications > symposium sponsored by Michigan State University. > > "My court is fond of saying that acts of Congress come to the > court with the > presumption of constitutionality," Scalia said. "But if Congress > is going to > take the attitude that it will do anything it can get away with > and let the > Supreme Court worry about the Constitution ... then perhaps that > presumption > is unwarranted." > > Two laws struck down by the Supreme Court in recent years provided > speeded-up court review of their provisions. In 1997, the > justices threw out > a measure that sought to protect children from sexually explicit > material on > the Internet, and a year later the court threw out Congress' > effort to enact > a presidential line-item veto. > > "Congress has in recent years been pushing the edge of the constitutional > envelope so aggressively that it has begun to include special review > provisions in its more dubious offerings," Scalia said. "If you have a > legislature that is eager to push the envelope you should expect a higher > percentage of invalidations." > > ---------------End of Original Message----------------- > > A proposal to make Congress accountable > > The following may be introduced as a constitutional amendment, > and may also > be introduced as ordinary legislation and as revisions to the rules of > procedure of each House of Congress: > > ______ > > In the event that any act of Congress shall be held unconstitutional, in > whole or in part, by the Supreme Court of the United States, each > member of > each House who voted for the act shall be penalized as follows: > > 1 - On the first such instance, the privilege of voting for > legislation by > that member shall be suspended for 2 legislative days; similarly, > > 2 - On the second such instance, the privilege of voting by that member > shall be suspended for 5 legislative days; > > 3 - On the third such instance, the privilege of voting by that > member shall > be suspended for 10 legislative days; > > 4 - On the fourth such instance, the privilege of voting by that member > shall be suspended for 20 legislative days; > > 5 - On the fifth such instance, the seat of that member shall be declared > vacant, the member removed from the House and from his office, > and his seat > filled in accordance with law, except that he shall not be > eligible to fill > his vacancy, or to ever hold any office of trust of the United > States, any > State, or any territory of the United States, and to be removed from any > such office he might then hold. > > The suspension shall begin on the first legislative day following > the order > of the Supreme Court. However, the member shall be counted as present for > purpose of establishing a quorum. > > ______ > > Spread this proposal far and wide. > > --Jon > > =================================================================== > Constitution Society, 1731 Howe Av #370, Sacramento, CA 95825 > 916/568-1022, 916/450-7941VM Date: 04/19/00 Time: 19:56:33 > http://www.constitution.org/ mailto:jon.roland@constitution.org > =================================================================== > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Enjoy the award-winning journalism of The New York Times with > convenient home delivery. And for a limited time, get 50% off for the > first 8 weeks by subscribing. Pay by credit card and receive an > additional 4 weeks at this low introductory rate. > http://click.egroups.com/1/3102/5/_/655990/_/956199442/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Liberty's Educational Advocacy Forum > http://freedomlaw.com > promotes "action that raises the cost of State violence for its > perpetrators ... lay(ing) the basis for institutional change." > [Noam Chomsky] > > Dr. Tavel's Self Help Clinic and Sovereign Law Library > http://drtavel.com/selfhelp.htm > Not a high-tech law firm brochure, "because a lawyer is only > as smart as you make him" [Max Katz] and > "the Law . . . should be accessible to > every man and at all times." [Franz Kafka] > > For Liberty in Our Lifetime, > R.J. Tavel, JD, managing partner, > Tavel & Stewart, Public Interest Law Firm, > Bringing you "a whole new boutique of wonderful > First Amendment litigation." [J. Scalia] > http://freedomlaw.com/T&S/ > > NEW: SUBSCRIBE TO Lis-LEAF the > Learning Electronically About Freedom mailing service at > http://freedomlaw.com/FORM.html > Community email addresses: > Unsubscribe: Lis-LEAF-unsubscribe@onelist.com > List owner: Lis-LEAF-owner@onelist.com > Shortcut URL to this page: > http://www.onelist.com/community/Lis-LEAF > > [------------------------- end of forwarded message > ------------------------] > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** > RKBA! > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | > sword.--Jesus Christ > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > > - > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [newsucanuse] VIN-- pat-down search (fwd) Date: 21 Apr 2000 21:01:00 PST On Apr 21, SlickEditor@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz Rediscovering the Fourth Amendment As little as 50 years ago, American movie audiences could be expected to hiss and boo as the Nazi Gestapo agent was shown insinuating himself through the passenger cars of some European train, ominously hissing, "Papers, please?" Only in totalitarian police states (Americans then understood) were citizens subject to random searches -- or any requirement that they show their "papers" at the mere whim of a suspicious government official. Then things began to change in America. Where once the Fourth Amendment ("The right of the people to be secure ... against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated") was presumed inviolate, now police complained such restrictions were making it impossible to fight the War on Drugs. The courts responded to the "pragmatic realities" of the Drug War by granting police a progressively greater presumption of "compelling need" to violate the terms of the Fourth -- first in a few cases of "fleeing suspects"; then in "random traffic stops"; finally tumbling down the slippery slope so far that today, "It's OK that you killed these innocent homeowners in their beds, as long as it was your anonymous informant who got the address wrong. But you really should pay to fix the door." Now, finally, the U.S. Supreme Court seems to be rediscovering that ancient "right of the people to be secure ..." In 1997, Steven Dewayne Bond was a passenger on a Greyhound bus en route from California to Arkansas, when the bus was stopped at an "immigration checkpoint" in Sierra Blanca, Texas. A Border Patrol agent checked the passengers' immigration status, and then felt their luggage. The agent squeezed a canvas bag in the bin over Bond's seat, and later told the court his perception of a ''brick-like object" led him to suspect it contained drugs. When the agent asked Bond if he could open the bag, the agent testified he was told, "Go ahead." Inside, the agent found a brick-shaped object covered in tape, later revealed to contain methamphetamine. Mr. Bond was convicted of drug possession and "conspiracy" (an all-purpose add-on charge, these days. Unless he manufactured the drugs from scratch, he obviously had to have "conspired" with somebody). The appeals court said the agent needed no search warrant, since Mr. Bond gave up any reasonable expectation of privacy when he "exposed" the bag to the public by putting it in the overhead bin. But on April 17, the U.S. Supreme Court overturned Bond's conviction, Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist writing for the court that "Physically invasive inspection is ... more intrusive than purely visual inspection." A citizen does not waive his privacy rights when he places his belongings in a piece of luggage, under the absurd theory that he is then inviting one and all to "feel the bag in an exploratory manner," the court ruled. The 7-2 court majority is a strong one, with only Justices Antonin Scalia and Stephen Breyer dissenting, on the theory that enforcing the Fourth Amendment could "deter law enforcement officers searching for drugs" (Justice Breyer absurdly adding that travelers who want to safeguard the contents of their luggage "from public touch should plan to pack those contents in a suitcase with hard sides." Sure. And those of us travelling by air can demonstrate our reluctance to "waive our privacy rights" by simply buying luggage with lead panels designed to block the omnipresent X-Rays ... right?) Indeed, the Fourth Amendment certainly does "deter law enforcement officers searching for drugs." It doubtless does so every day. But an explicit delegation of power to Congress to fight a War on Drugs is difficult to locate -- some even arguing that the "unenumerated rights" protected by the Ninth Amendment must include the once unrestricted right to consume alcohol and other drugs, as our ancestors were free to do from 1600 to 1915 -- lest why would a constitutional amendment have been required to outlaw alcohol in 1919? I believe this is a correct and sensible reading of the Ninth. But even if the drug war were somehow legitimate, whenever a freedom specifically guaranteed by the Bill of Rights comes into conflict with the convenience of the police, the Bill of Rights must clearly prevail. If the War on Drugs cannot co-exist with the Bill of Rights, then it is time to call a halt to the War on Drugs for that reason, alone. In the meantime, the 7-2 majority of the high court managed to do the right thing in the case of Steven Dewayne Bond (Bond vs. U.S., 98-9349.) Vin Suprynowicz is assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas Review-Journal. His book, "Send in the Waco Killers: Essays on the Freedom Movement, 1993-1998," is available at $24.95 postpaid by dialing 1-800-244-2224; or via web site http://www.thespiritof76.com/wacokillers.html. *** Vin Suprynowicz, vin@lvrj.com "The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it." -- John Hay, 1872 "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed -- and thus clamorous to be led to safety -- by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." -- H.L. Mencken * * * To subscribe, send a message to vinsends-request@ezlink.com, from your NEW address, including the word "subscribe" (with no quotation marks) in the "Subject" line. All I ask of electronic subscribers is that they not RE-forward my columns until on or after the embargo date which appears at the top of each, and that (should they then choose to do so) they copy the columns in their entirety, preserving the original attribution. The Vinsends list is maintained by Alan Wendt in Colorado, who may be reached directly at alan@ezlink.com. The web sites for the Suprynowicz column are at http://www.infomagic.com/liberty/vinyard.htm, and http://www.nguworld.com/vindex. The Vinyard is maintained by Michael Voth in Flagstaff, who may be reached directly at mvoth@infomagic.com. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [slickplus] HUMOR: New Scientific Discovery! (fwd) Date: 21 Apr 2000 23:27:21 PST On Apr 22, RichSlick@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Nameloh writes: << Investigators at a major research institution recently discovered the heaviest element known to science and tentatively have named it "administratium." Administratium has been found to have no protons or electrons, thus having an atomic number of 0. It has, however, 1 neutron, 125 assistant neutrons, 75 vice neutrons and 111 assistant vice neutrons, giving it an atomic mass of 312. These 312 particles are held together by a force that involves the continuous exchange of mesonlike particles called morons. The morons are surrounded by vast quantities of leptonlike particles called peons. Since it has no electrons, administratium is inert. However, it can be detected chemically as it impedes every reaction with which it comes into contact. According to the discoverers, a minute amount of administratium caused one reaction to take more than four days to complete when it normally could have occurred in less that a second. Administratium has a half-life of approximately three years. However, it does not decay in the usual way but instead undergoes a reorganization in which a portion of the assistant neutrons, vice neutrons and assistant vice neutrons exchange places. In reorganization, some of the morons inevitably become neutrons, forming new isotopes. This characteristic of moron promotion leads some scientists to speculate that administratium is formed spontaneously whenever moron concentration reaches a certain level. This hypothetical quantity is referred to as Critical Morass. >> [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [Fratrum] [Fwd: [patriot] (fwd) [piml] Fwd: 80 Million Armed Man March (SORRY)] (fwd) Date: 24 Apr 2000 09:26:50 PST On Apr 24, Margi Crook wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Reply-To: patriot-owner@egroups.com On Fri, 21 Apr 2000 23:04:26 -0500 (CDT), Pro2Am@webtv.net wrote:   Forwarded Message: Subj: 80 Million man march on DC, against gun control. CONGRESS ! Sorry, I don't understand all that you have written in your letter, but let me say, the one thing that touched home with this old military vet and retired cop is the idea of a 80 million gun owners marching on Washington, District of Criminals.   What a wonderful, monumental, statement, this would make! I don't know if your letter is a spoof or for real, because of how it's written, but me and many patriotic police and soldiers would be part of such a march IF it was on Wash. DC or the United Nations.   Do you realize the impact on the psyche of our treasonist "leaders" - if we had only "10 million" armed, peaceful, Americans descend on DC or the UN (which runs the US today)?   I can't think of anything that would send a more powerful message, that would not easily be forgotten at voting time on unconstitutional purposed gun legislation, by treasonist republican and democratic despots - that plan to "incrementally" i.e. "piece by piece", pull (remove) our unalienable Right to Bear Arms (Liberty Teeth) ! Brother, if 10 to 80 million concerned, patriotic non-violent, gun owners invading their "safe and secure" Ivory Palaces (firm but peacefully assembled) in the Nation's Capital, or the World Capital NYC- (UN) doesn't shake them up - nothing but another violent revolution will !! ...(that no intelligent American wants to see.) I don't know who's idea this was, but it may be a very timely idea. ("80 MILLION ARMED MAN MARCH on District of Criminals".) Those of us here at Police Against the New World Order and Aid & Abet Police-Military News know something must be done very soon.   I believe our peers would vote to march and stand with you and all our fellow Americans to stop the lose of our freedoms and liberty and see a return to our Constitutional REPUBLIC. With 50 plus new gun bills presently being presented to the congress for passage by traitors in both US socialist political parties ....many agree - It's past time the good, upstanding, patriotic, gun owners in our Land of Liberty be heard and heard at the very gates of Heaven and Hell ! "HAVE GUN - WILL TRAVEL" was the name of an old 50s T.V. show - sounds like a good, descriptive sound bit! It may be past-time to let our so-called representatives hear the sounds of 10 to 80 million peace-loving, but tenacious, good Americans moving their direction in... "peace and love", of course. We in law enforcement know of the successful program called "SCARED STRAIGHT" for getting our nation's juveniles delinquents attention and out of their life of crime.... could we possibly have come upon such a powerful program (80 million Armed Man March on DC) to get the attention of our despotic "leaders" involved in crimes against the Constitution and peoples rights? There are several of our congressional representatives that would join us. Ron Paul, Helen Chenoweth, Senators Larry Craig,....and who knows who may join us if they think they can get 10 to 80 million voters to support their political careers. I can't speak for them, but, I believe grand patriots Larry Pratt of GUN OWNERS OF AMERICA, and Arron Zelman and his fine activist team at JPFO (Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership) might see the timeliness and value of such a profound, national statement and of course, would be a main force in making this march a successful and peaceful, reality.   In addition I can't imagine that every state gun association/club wouldn't support such a history making march.   Note: I could be wrong, however, because of what seems to be dark "dialectic" forces behind the scenes in the C-NRA (Compromising NRA) today - we may find them not supporting this march (especially if they believe it will be effective.)   We would have to be prepared for this real possibility. The question I pose to you is....do we need to have C-NRA to "secure" our GOD given rights for all freedom loving, armed, Americans,...OR...can American patriots stand up and speak out on their own???? Let me hear your thoughts on this my dear brother. And please, all those on my "very special" e-mail mailing list that receive this letter, BRAIN STORM WITH ME, and give me, and all of us, your valuable impute on such a mind boggling, eye opening, march IDEA.                                               Officer Jack McLamb, ret. Executive Director, PATNWO (Police Against the New World Order) and Publisher - AID & ABET POLICE-MILITARY NEWS.                                                       (208) 935-7852 FAX ((208) 935-7854 Stat: 1 Num: 0 UID: 32663 -- Charles Hamilton schuetzen@spamcop.net Houston, TX RKBA! X-NO-ARCHIVE: YES [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: McGehee's News & Comment - April 24, 2000 (fwd) Date: 24 Apr 2000 18:44:43 PST On Apr 24, The McGehee Zone wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] McGEHEE'S NEWS & COMMENT (c) 2000 KEVIN McGEHEE Newnan, Georgia mail@mcgeheezone.com http://www.mcgeheezone.com/ Permission granted to anyone wishing to forward, redistribute, or broadcast this article WITH FULL ATTRIBUTION. ================================================================ REMEMBER WHEN...? Can you remember what it was like to be proud of your country? I can, but lately it feels more like the memory of a dream than of an actual experience. Never before in the history of this great nation has it ever expected less of itself than it does right now. What else can I conclude after listening to people defend what happened Saturday morning, not as a necessary evil, but as the right thing to do -- little less than our finest hour? Once upon a time when people tried to defend the indefensible, they at least pretended to have some shred of personal decency that was allegedly uneasy about what happened. But too many now seem to think that pointing an automatic weapon at a six-year-old kid is the sort of thing that earns a nation the moral high ground. Our government has been telling us for years now that it takes a village to raise a child. What happened in Miami last weekend reminded me more of a much older declaration: "We had to destroy the village to save it." Or in this case, "We had to traumatize a six-year-old boy to save him from being traumatized." America, are you proud of what you've allowed yourself to sink to? Away from the roar of the Elian issue, we behold a populace that has become cynical about national leaders. When told of new heights of low behavior from the current occupant of the White House, they shrug and excuse him, insisting that all politicians are scum anyway so it doesn't matter which one is in office. Twenty years ago it was a different matter entirely. There was somebody who unashamedly proclaimed his pride in America. Enough people appreciated it that we made him President, and in turn he made us all proud, just like him. Today we have a President that would make us all ashamed, if only we knew the meaning of the word. Unfortunately, "ashamed" seems to have fallen into the same cognitive abyss as "is." Ethics in government are only a reflection of the ethics of the people. If we have corrupt leaders, it's because the people have been corrupted. Getting their share from the system is now more important than their freedom -- but to so many Americans today freedom isn't even an issue. Like "is" and "ashamed," the word "freedom" has no meaning to them anymore. Those who try to argue the relative merits of freedom vs. big government control, might as well be arguing with a brick wall. America, do you even know what pride is? The "good times" of the last seven years have apparently lulled the American people into a stupor. They're fat, happy and totally disengaged from their government, even while that government gradually increases its control over them. It reminds me of how certain types of wasp will sting a large bug, giving it just enough venom to sedate it, before laying an egg on the bug and leaving. When the egg hatches, it takes the wasp larva weeks to devour the bug alive. America, if you can hear me, please twitch or something. -30- April 24, 2000 ============================================================ This article can also be read online at http://www.mcgeheezone.com/news&comment/2000/****.htm The views expressed herein are entirely those of the author(s), and do not reflect those of any person or group with whom the author(s) may be affiliated, unless explicitly labelled as doing so. --... ...-- -.. . -.- .-.. ----- - -.-- [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Fw: Justice Taken Too Far (fwd) Date: 25 Apr 2000 14:32:18 PST On Apr 25, The McGehee Zone wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] I heard on Rush Limbaugh's show today that Alan Dershowitz was also expressing doubts about the legal basis of last Saturday's raid. When Tribe and Dershowitz are on the same side as George Will and Rush Limbaugh, that makes this truly a bipartisan issue. Kevin McGehee Newnan, Georgia mail@mcgeheezone.com http://www.McGeheeZone.com/ --... ...-- -.. . -.- .-.. ----- - -.-- "Speak softly to your enemy, lest your vain remonstrances drown out the small, still voice of his own conscience, which speaks in vain only when it is unheard." ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2000 12:32 PM Justice Taken Too Far Constitution Opinion (Published) Source: NY Times Published: April 25, 2000 Author: LAURENCE H. TRIBE Some are wildly comparing the armed seizure of Elian Gonzalez to the roundup of innocents by the Gestapo. Others think Attorney General Janet Reno showed admirable patience in dealing with a group of zealots using the boy as a pawn in its war with Fidel Castro. But the partisan squabbling over these caricatured views threatens to obscure a vital question: Where did the attorney general derive the legal authority to invade that Miami home in order to seize the child? The fact is, even on the assumption (which I share) that under applicable legal and moral principles Elian should ultimately be reunited with his father, the government's actions appear to have violated a basic principle of our society, a principle whose preservation lies at the core of ordered liberty under the rule of law. Under the Constitution, it is axiomatic that the executive branch has no unilateral authority to enter people's homes forcibly to remove innocent individuals without taking the time to seek a warrant or other order from a judge or magistrate (absent the most extraordinary need to act). Not only the Fourth Amendment but also well-established constitutional principles of family privacy require that the disinterested judiciary test the correctness of the executive branch's claimed right to enter and seize. Although a federal court had ordered that Elian not be removed from the country pending a determination of his asylum petition, and although a court had ruled that the Immigration and Naturalization Service could exercise custody and control of Elian for the time being, no judge or neutral magistrate had issued the type of warrant or other authority needed for the executive branch to break into the home to seize the child. The agency had no more right to do so than any parent who has been awarded custody would have a right to break and enter for such a purpose. Indeed, the I.N.S. had not even secured a judicial order, as opposed to a judicially unreviewed administrative one, compelling the Miami relatives to turn Elian over. The Justice Department points out that the agents who stormed the Miami home were armed not only with guns but with a search warrant. But it was not a warrant to seize the child. Elian was not lost, and it is a semantic sleight of hand to compare his forcible removal to the seizure of evidence, which is what a search warrant is for. To be sure, our courts have allowed immigration officials to obtain areawide warrants to search workplaces for illegal aliens, and Congress has by statute empowered immigration officials to search, interrogate and arrest people without warrants in order to prevent unlawful entry into the country. But no one suspects that Elian is here illegally. In fact, it's hard to see any significant immigration-related or other federal interest in whether Elian was reunited with his father now or after asylum is denied (if that is the outcome). And, should asylum be granted, Elian's father might still be granted custody and could then take the boy to Cuba with him if he so chose; asylum only means permission to stay in the United States and is not a requirement to stay. Either way, Ms. Reno's decision to take the law as well as the child into her own hands seems worse than a political blunder. Even if well intended, her decision strikes at the heart of constitutional government and shakes the safeguards of liberty. Laurence H. Tribe is a professor of constitutional law at Harvard [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: GUN RIGHTS GROUPS CONDEMN NRA "PROJECT EXILE" (fwd) Date: 25 Apr 2000 14:33:05 PST On Apr 24, Weldon Clark wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] GUN RIGHTS GROUPS CONDEMN NRA "PROJECT EXILE" PRESS RELEASE: NRA's Project Exile Condemned as Betrayal by Gun Rights Groups "Project Exile", a flagship program of the National Rifle Association, has provoked a hammering denunciation from a large and growing coalition that includes national, state, and grass-roots firearms rights organizations, as well as individuals prominent in the firearms rights and civil rights community. In a statement that became public last Saturday (April 15) via the internet news source WorldNet Daily.com, the coalition condemned "Project Exile", which is a general demand for strict enforcement of all existing federal gun laws. The coalition states that this clearly implies the NRA leadership's endorsement of unconstitutional laws and warn that these laws will ultimately be enforced against NRA's own members. Calling "Project Exile" "a grotesque betrayal of the eighty- three million American firearm owners who conduct peaceable lives every day", they note that the program is also supported by Bill Clinton and Handgun Control, Inc. They call on the NRA's current leadership to repudiate the program. The coalition arrayed against "Project Exile" includes Citizens Of America, Gun Owners of America, Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership, KeepAndBearArms.com, Citizens Against Corruption, and numerous large state-level groups. In a statement linked to his name on the website, coalition co-organizer and COA President Brian Puckett calls for ousting NRA officials, also stating "One should not confuse the NRA and its members with the current leadership, the so- called 'winning team', which has presided over the most profound and far-reaching losses of our Second Amendment Rights since the 1968 Gun Control Act." Another co-organizer, former NRA Director Russ Howard, stated today, "Project Exile makes it painfully clear that loyalty to the Constitution is now dangerously inconsistent with blind loyalty to NRA management." Coalition co-organizer Angel Shamaya, director of KeepAndBearArms.org and KeepAndBearArms.com, also stated today, "We're getting new endorsements every day, including signatures from the public. Project Exile is a total capitulation in our fight to regain stolen rights. We want everyone to understand why and to join us in denouncing this betrayal". The entire strongly-worded statement "We Condemn Project Exile" can be viewed online at http://www.keepandbeararms.org/exile_denouncement.htm. Also linked to the site are excerpted statements by NRA Executive Vice President Wayne La Pierre and NRA President Charlton Heston. -End Press Release- 2ANEWS ACTION ITEMS: The Federal Exile Bill has passed the House and will go to the Senate. If it passes there it may go back to conference. *****WRITE AND CALL YOUR LEGISLATORS and tell them you want to stop Project Exile. Writing can be accomplished at the speed of light (see below). Some points to make: * Once again, NRA management has misinformed congress that the 2nd Amendment community supports gun control, this time claiming unanimous support for Project Exile. In fact, a large, growing coalition of self-defense civil rights leaders and groups oppose it. (see http://www.keepandbeararms.org/exile_denouncement.htm.) * Project Exile aims to provide resources to enforce unconstitutional gun control laws with "zero tolerance". Clearly, short of repealing or overturning these unconstitutional laws, there is no way to stop prosecutors from prosecuting ANYONE & EVERYONE who "violates" them, not just violent felons & victimless drug offenders especially as additional enforcement resources are provided. When the government gets ready to broaden its crackdowns on decent citizens, the laws and resources are in place. Why are we concentrating on enforcing gun laws to stop murder and other violent crimes? Aren't those already illegal? If the laws against violent crime aren't working, if true violent felons are walking the streets, shouldn't we be fixing and enforcing those laws, rather than pushing unconstitutional gun controls? Why should the penalty for someone who injures, rapes, or murders someone with a knife be any less than the same crime with a gun? Project Exile endorses the notion that guns are inherently evil. Waco and Ruby Ridge are examples of zero tolerance. Not a single officer in the chain of command refused to brutally enforce unconstitutional gun controls, resulting in the murders of over 80 men, women and children, none of whom were hurting anyone, none of whom were "violent criminals". WRITE: GOA & WND have very good "automailer" systems at http://www.gunowners.org/activism.htm or http://congress.nw.dc.us/wnd/ Under "Write to Congress", enter your zip code, check "send message", then click "search". A new screen comes up with the names of your representative & senators. Click "compose e-mail". When the new screen comes up, check "Compose Your Own Letter" then click "Next Step". Fill out the next screen, paste you message and click "Send e-mail". You can also have it compose regular letters for you to print and mail out. CALL: Call your Senators at (202) 224-3121 & your Representative at (202) 225-3121 (Capitol Switchboard). Sign the Anti-Project Exile statement yourself at: http://www.petitiononline.com/exile/petitition.html Leaders and Groups please sign at the bottom of the page at http://www.keepandbeararms.org/exile_denouncement.htm. We're swamped, so please bear with us. If you've already done this and your name or group hasn't appeared within a few days, please do it again. RELATED LINKS for 2ANews Clients: David Bresnahan's original article on the Anti-Project Exile coalition: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_bresnahan/20000415_ xex_gunrights_gr.shtml Brian Puckett's statement about current NRA leadership: http://www.keepandbeararms.org/exile_puckett.htm Russ Howard's articles on Exile and the 2A movement: http://www.keepandbeararms.org/exile_gulag.htm http://www.keepandbeararms.org/gulag_epilogue.htm Geoff Metcalf's related article: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_metcalf/20000417_xcg me_i_am_not_n.shtml Val Finnell, M.D.'s statements: http://fi9.com/guncontrol/gc_projectexile.html http://www.vcdl.org/newsletter/1999/apr01/page2.htm ***************************** From The 2ndAmendmentNews Team If you received this as a forward and wish to join please send: E-MAil to listserver@frostbit.com with the following text in the message body: SUBSCRIBE 2nd-Amendment-News We have had a computer error. If you want to be removed send a message to the list administrator, send E-mail to whclark@bellsouth.net If you know anyone who would appreciate these alerts, please let us know and we'll enroll them on a trial basis. Also, feel free to forward our alerts. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Fwd: [Lis-LEAF] COURT CALLS HEARING ON ELIAN MATTER FOR 2:30 PM TOMORROW (fwd)] (fwd) Date: 25 Apr 2000 22:14:26 PST On Apr 25, Margi Crook wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Kyle Key April 25, 2000 (202) 646-5172 COURT CALLS HEARING ON ELIAN MATTER FOR 2:30 PM TOMORROW Judicial Watch Moves To Uncover Truth Behind Reno s Raid (Washington, DC). Judicial Watch has filed a lawsuit to uncover the real reasons behind Janet Reno s and the Clinton-Gore Administration s bizarre action in backing Castro and risking life and limb in the Elian Gonzalez saga. This morning, the public-interest government watchdog filed an emergency motion before The Honorable James Robertson of the United States District Court for the District of Columbia, asking that the Court order the immediate production of all documents by the Justice Department concerning the Elian Gonzalez saga. Judge Robertson has just issued an Order calling for an emergency hearing on Wednesday, April 26, 2000, at 2:30 p.m. in Courtroom 16 of the Federal Court House at Third and Constitution Avenues, N.W. Judicial Watch will invite Lazaro Gonzales and Marisleysis Gonzalez to attend the hearing. A press conference will follow on the Court House steps. The American people deserve to know all the facts behind this terrible moment in American history, where our government acted like thugs in terrorizing innocent Cuban-American citizens who were trying to protect the liberty rights of this young Cuban boy, stated Judicial Watch Chairman and General Counsel Larry Klayman and President Tom Fitton. Avoid the lines and visit avis.com for quick and easy online reservations. Enjoy a compact car nationwide for only $29 a day! Click here for more details. http://click.egroups.com/1/3011/5/_/655990/_/956710266/ Liberty's Educational Advocacy Forum http://freedomlaw.com promotes "action that raises the cost of State violence for its perpetrators ... lay(ing) the basis for institutional change." [Noam Chomsky] Dr. Tavel's Self Help Clinic and Sovereign Law Library http://drtavel.com/selfhelp.htm Not a high-tech law firm brochure, "because a lawyer is only as smart as you make him" [Max Katz] and "the Law . . . should be accessible to every man and at all times." [Franz Kafka] For Liberty in Our Lifetime, R.J. Tavel, JD, managing partner, Tavel & Stewart, Public Interest Law Firm, Bringing you "a whole new boutique of wonderful First Amendment litigation." [J. Scalia] http://freedomlaw.com/T&S/ NEW: SUBSCRIBE TO Lis-LEAF the Learning Electronically About Freedom mailing service at http://freedomlaw.com/FORM.html Community email addresses: Unsubscribe: Lis-LEAF-unsubscribe@onelist.com List owner: Lis-LEAF-owner@onelist.com Shortcut URL to this page: http://www.onelist.com/community/Lis-LEAF [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: FREEDOM DIES AT LADY LIBERTY (fwd) Date: 25 Apr 2000 22:16:30 PST On Apr 25, Huck wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] > Subject: FREEDOM DIES AT LADY LIBERTY > Date: 25 Apr 2000 17:08:15 -0000 > From: "Investigative Journal Alert" > To: List Member > > Investigative Journal Alert - http://InvestigativeJournal.com > > This is the FREE e-mail alert you requested. You may copy and send it to > others. Unsubscribe/subscribe at http://InvestigativeJournal.listbot.com/ > --- > > NOW YOU CAN AFFORD THE DENTIST - ARGUS DENTAL PLAN > FREE info: 1-800-695-0752 > http://InvestigativeJournal.com/argus.htm > > --- > 'FREEDOM OF SONG' THWARTED > Police muzzle high school choir singing to Statue of Liberty > > By David M. Bresnahan > © 2000 WorldNetDaily.com > > Shouting loudly over the strains of young > voices singing, a government policeman > recently stopped a high school choir's > spontaneous, patriotic concert at the foot of the > Statue of Liberty because the students did not > have a proper permit in hand that would have > allowed them to perform on public property. > > Members of the Viewmont High School Choir > from Bountiful, Utah, were so impressed by > their recent visit to "Lady Liberty" that they > began to sing the national anthem on the spur of > the moment, impressing bystanders, but not the > National Park Service rangers. The students > were forced to stop and were threatened with > possible arrest if they did not obey. > > One of the parents videotaped the experience > and captured the gruff voice of a park > policeman shouting above the music: "You can't > do that. You kids have got to stop that right > now." > > For the complete story, go to http://InvestigativeJournal.com [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [harpazo] Fw: VDW: 23 Christians ARRESTED by Supreme court police (fwd) Date: 26 Apr 2000 21:24:40 PST On Apr 26, BaBette Z. Bechtold wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 14:57:49 -0400 From: Jim Rudd Dear Friends, THIS IS THE NEWS THAT YOU WILL NOT HEAR FROM ANY MAJOR NEWS OUTLET CONCERNING TUESDAY'S EVENTS AT THE SUPREME COURT! Tuesday, I was present with three of my nine children in front of the Supreme Court as they argued whether or not executing a small child in the process of being born is a woman's constitutional right. Present were some notable pro-life leaders: Joe Scheidler of Pro Life Action League in Chicago, Rev. Joseph Foreman, one of the founders of Operation Rescue; Troy Newman of Operation Rescue West in California; Rev. Flip Benham of Operation Save America; Rev. Frank Pavone of Priests For Life; Rev. Pat Mahoney of Christian Defense Coalition, based in D.C. It was raining a steady downpour all morning. Some of the pro-lifers had been there day and night praying and fasting since Sunday. In the large area in front of the steps to the Supreme Court, large signs had been erected. One was an actual photo of a baby killed by partial-birth abortion, another was of a late-term baby that had been beheaded in the procedure. Yet another was a five-frame depiction of the entire partial birth abortion procedure. Rev. Pat Mahoney of Christian Defense Coalition and Troy Newman of Operation Rescue West had negotiated with the Court for months concerning the signs and the setting up of a sound system and microphone. The Court had agreed to allow the signs. They knew the exact size and dimension of each sign, and the content of the signs. THEY AGREED TO ALLOW THE SIGNS. PERMITS WERE ISSUED FOR THE SIGNS. Shortly after the Justices would have entered the building, a written order from the US Marshals Service, located inside the Supreme Court, ordered that the signs be removed! Quoting a regulation concerning signs in Lafayette Park -- across the street -- they claimed the signs were too big and had to be removed. It should be noted that the US Marshal's Service does not have jurisdiction in front of the Court, but the Supreme Court Police, who had been on duty all along without any objection to the signs, which were legally erected. The signs had been placed there on Sunday, and the permit allowed them to remain up until Tuesday afternoon. This was the third day they had been up, but suddenly they were illegal! The Supreme Court allowed the US Marshal's service to carry out the enforcement, thus proving that they don't have any integrity, either. Rev. Pat Mahoney announced the action to the crowd. In a passionate talk, he proclaimed that the Free Speech Rights of Christians would not be suppressed in front of the very center of American Justice. He said that he and Troy Newman of Operation Rescue West had been threatened with arrest if they did not remove the signs. He announced that they would NOT remove the signs, that it was obvious that these signs which portrayed the truth of what was being argued were having an effect. He asked pro-lifers to sit in front of the signs and continue to pray, realizing that they might face arrest if they did not move when ordered to. Rev. Mahoney, Rev. Foreman, Troy Newman and 20 others Christians were arrested by Supreme Court Police and taken to jail for refusing to remove signs that they had negotiated the placement of for months; and for which they had lawful permits! But let's face it, if they'll be complicit in the gruesome murder of 40 million children, they'll do ANYTHING. A servant of Christ, Rev. Bruce Evan Murch PS. Please forward, so Christians will know the truth of what really transpired at the Supreme Court [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [harpazo] Fw: SP: Religious club de-funded in secret meeting (fwd) Date: 26 Apr 2000 21:25:50 PST On Apr 26, BaBette Z. Bechtold wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] FYI and maybe a subject for prayer. The battle lines are being drawn and made more public each day. Moral character, integrity, standing for the Constitution, and especially a belief in God (that is with a G) makes you an enemy of the current government in America. It is everywhere you look. It is in the schools, the unions, the churches, the health care arena, everywhere. The homosexual element has pushed and is pushing for not *equal* rights but for *superior* rights. If anyone even mentions something against them the slander routine begins. You doubt me? Do a simple search of the news and see what they are demanding and getting passed into legislation in the individual states. When you have leaders such as the Clintons, Reno, Shalala, and those limp wristed supporters who claim to be politically correct you can't expect a moral government. We must be tolerant of the sinners but they don't have to tolerate anyone standing against them. The homosexual community isn't satisfied with forming their own groups, they must destroy those who exclude their activities. This nation is a disgrace and so are those who fail to stand against what is happening. We will all suffer the wrath of God for our failures. Jackie Juntti WGEN idzrus@earthlink.net TESTING THE FAITH Tufts shuts out Christian group Religious club de-funded in secret meeting because it wouldn't accept lesbian leader By Julie Foster © 2000 WorldNetDaily.com Tufts Christian Fellowship was stripped of its official "student organization" status in a secret, midnight meeting because the group would not allow an admitted homosexual to hold a leadership position. Though Tufts University administration says Tufts Christian Fellowship has not been "banned," organizers of the group -- an affiliate of international college ministry InterVarsity Christian Fellowship -- say the decision to de-recognize TCF has the same effect as a ban. In fact, TFC is no longer allowed to refer to itself as "Tufts Christian Fellowship," it has been stripped of its student organization funding, meetings may not be held in regularly reserved rooms and the group may not advertise its meetings or events on campus. The decision to divest TCF of its organizational rights came from a student-run governing body called the Tufts Community Union Judiciary. Tufts' administration gave the TCUJ authority to recognize student groups; however, no student group has ever been derecognized. According to a statement from the office of Tufts President John DiBiaggio, "the Tufts Christian Fellowship has ten days to appeal the TCUJ decision to the Committee on Student Life. The Committee on Student Life has members of the faculty and undergraduate students." "The Tufts Christian Fellowship has indicated, through its counsel, that it will file an appeal. While the matter is proceeding through the students' judicial system, it would be inappropriate for the administration to comment on the case," the brief statement concluded. The TCUJ's decision was prompted by a complaint against the Christian club by Julie Catalano, who claimed she had been discriminated against because of her sexual orientation. Catalano sought a leadership position within TCF and asserted her belief that homosexual practice is a biblically acceptable lifestyle. Current leaders in the club, who choose leaders for the next academic year, did not consider Catalano, saying her beliefs do not reflect the "religious tradition" of the group. Curtis Chang, TCF's leader and affiliate chaplain at the university, told WorldNetDaily, "TCF's religious tradition ... believes the Bible is clear on the topic of homosexual practice. It is listed along with a long list of practices that are deemed to not be in accord with God's wishes for human relationships." Chang noted "the TCF senior leadership's position on homosexual practice does not stem from homophobia. [Leaders] have consistently affirmed their desire for homosexuals in general, and Julie in particular, to be members of the group. They affirm the dignity and worth of every human being, created in God's image. They also distinguish between homosexual orientation and homosexual practice." According to TCF's chaplain, no one from the group's leadership was invited to the "emergency" meeting called by Tufts Community Union Judiciary chair Jessica Branco to answer accusations of discrimination. However, campus media were present at the two-hour hearing, which began around 10 p.m. on April 13, and TCF was notified by voice mail of the decision at 12:39 a.m. "But more importantly than the secretive and rushed nature of the judgment," said Chang, "the ruling threatens the freedom of all campus religious groups to practice their respective faiths." "The TCUF has essentially acted to legislate religion on campus," he continued. "Barring religious groups from using religious-based values in leadership selection is the same as prohibiting them from practicing the religious nature of their group. It is a fact that, in general, the senior leadership of a group shapes the very beliefs and practices of that group." "What if the Democratic Club demanded that they be represented in the Republican Club's executive committee?" Chang asked. "What if some very liberal student activists insisted that 'The Primary Source's' senior editors must all write the same liberal views which they held?" "The freedom of groups to live out their beliefs rests in their right to set the criteria for leadership. This is why the TCF constitution has the outgoing senior leadership select next year's leaders. This process of leadership selection was approved by the TCUF last academic year and is similar to the way that many student organizations insure ongoing consistency with their underlying purposes." Campus publication "The Tufts Daily" reported that neither Catalano nor TCF membership was present at the "officially open" meeting. Branco is quoted in the publication, defending her decision to hold the hearing without notifying the parties involved. "They both submitted documents," she said. "The documents are standing for themselves. While their presence is welcomed, it is not required." The TCUJ is authorized to take action without a formal hearing "in situations where an accused individual or group does not deny an accusation or where the evidence available is irrefutable." "We're obviously going on the appeal part of the [regulation]," Branco continued. "If we feel that the nature of the situation is endangering the Tufts community and this is a special circumstance, we can prevent the Tufts Christian Fellowship [from] using Tufts' resources." Hadley Arkes, a jurisprudence professor at Amherst College, wrote a letter to Chang after the decision was handed down. "What the University has done is nothing less than declared orthodox Christianity and Judaism -- and Islam -- as illegitimate, as religious traditions that should have no legitimate place in the life of the University, or in the lives of the students collected there," he wrote. "That is, altogether, a remarkable position for anything that calls itself a University, for the universities usually pride themselves for being enclave of free discussion" Arkes added. Branco did not return repeated calls from WorldNetDaily. Julie Foster is a staff reporter for WorldNetDaily. ~~~~!~~~!~~~!~~~~!~~~!~~~!~~~!~~~!~~~!~~~!~~~!~~~!~~~!~~~!~~~!~~! In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, any copyrighted work in this message is distributed under fair use without profit or payment for non-profit research and educational purposes only. [Ref. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml] -. -. -. -. -. -. -. -. -. -. -. -. -. -. -. -. -. -. -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. Washington Grassroots Email Network (WGEN) idzrus@earthlink.net (Jackie Juntti, moderator) Where the Conservative message is posted - UNEDITED http://www.insidetheweb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi/mb70701 - Politics To Subscribe/Unsubscribe to WGEN: Send Email with Subscribe (Unsubscribe) and your state in the SUBJECT line. WGEN submits information for consumption. It is the readers responsibility to accept or deny. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Defanging the Beaurocracy, pass it on! Date: 28 Apr 2000 18:11:38 PST Folks, the idea I had a little while ago has percolated a bit, and I think it possible, that we can get some good out of it regardless of what happens to Elian Gonzales in the final result. Hopefully we can help him stay, but this is a grand chance to De-Militarize the Federal and possibly the State Beaurocracies as well. Combining the two issues is a net gain in supporters for both issues. The pics of the Raid say it all, spread the one with a submachinegun stuffed in his face everywhere. This is a potential Tiger that _all_ Beaurocratic Victims Groups can jump on and ride, Gun Owners, Property Righters, Tax Revolters, and any and all Industries that have been victimized, can all jump on, and lets face it, the Beaurocracy has been doing a _lot_ of Recruiting for us lately..... First off, a few bumperstickers/picket signs come to mind. Save Elian, hang a jackbooted thug! Save Elian, De-Militarize/disarm the Beaurocracy! De-Militarize/Disarm the Beaurocracy, They work for Castro, not U.S. De-Militarize/Disarm Beaurocratic Slave Masters! Save Elian, Disarm Janet Waco! Save Elian, Disarm Jackboot Janet! Save Elian, Fire the Beaurocracy! No more Bullies, kill the Beaurocracy! Bullies in Government Suck! Beauro-Bullies Suck! Beauro-Bullies drew 1st Blood, Remember Ruby Ridge! Beauro-Bullies drew 1st Blood, Remember Waco! Back to Civil Government, the Beaurocracy Sucks! And etc. Use any of the above, or make up your own. And of course, someone needs to put up a webpage or something so everyone can get organaized as to where/when to throw a fit/rotten eggs/tomatoes etc. -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Gun industry fights back (fwd) Date: 28 Apr 2000 18:13:38 PST On Apr 28, Don Loftus wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] NOBAN'ers I got an email from Chris Dolnack of the Hunting and Sport Shooting Heritage Fund (part of the NSSF, representative of the gun industry) that shows the industry is doing something about the various government agencies working to buy Smith & Wesson handguns at the expense of other companies. The article is on their web site at - www.hsshf.org. I tried to copy it and post it here, but couldn't get it to work. Go to the "Press Release" section to see the article. This is the group I have been asking you all to support with $10 donations (you can donate more if you like) to show support for the gun industry. We need to help them with these law suits. Go to their web page and then to the section on "How You Can Help." They will now take credit cards also to make it easier than sending a check. Don Loftus Gainesville, FL [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: wbg Subject: Re: Defanging the Beaurocracy, pass it on! Date: 28 Apr 2000 19:48:49 -0700 (PDT) Someone might want to learn how to spell "bureaucracy" before investing any money in bumper stickers . . . :-) Brewster -- *********************************************************************** " So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot. " George Orwell *********************************************************************** W. Brewster Gillett wbg@hevanet.com Portland, Oregon USA *********************************************************************** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: skip Subject: Re: Defanging the Beaurocracy, pass it on! Date: 28 Apr 2000 21:46:48 -0700 Evidence of illiteracy does tend to undermine credibility doesn't it Brewster? How are things? Regards, Skip. wbg wrote: > > Someone might want to learn how to spell "bureaucracy" before > investing any money in bumper stickers . . . :-) > > Brewster > -- > *********************************************************************** > " So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire > by people who don't even know that fire is hot. " > > George Orwell > *********************************************************************** > W. Brewster Gillett wbg@hevanet.com Portland, Oregon USA > *********************************************************************** > > - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: wbg Subject: Re: Defanging the Beaurocracy, pass it on! Date: 29 Apr 2000 07:24:17 -0700 (PDT) SkipL: > Evidence of illiteracy does tend to undermine credibility doesn't > it Brewster? wbg: Took the words right outta me mouth, y'did. It has long been one of my pet peeves, and is more noticable on the Net than it was in paper-only days. I suspect it's a combination of lowered educational standards and a (false) sense by Net users that it really doesn't matter as much. But you nailed the problem precisely - anyone who *does* know the language, when reading something with bonehead errors, is likely to assign a lowered worth to the whole piece. If only subconsciously. It seems to be very difficult to convince some folks of this. > How are things? > Regards, Skip. Steaming right along as usual, except no more candidacies for now :-) Lost one product, added another, plus a servicing contract, so keeping the little company more or less alive. And you? Brewster -- ******************************************************************** THE UPLIFTERS TRY IT AGAIN by H. L. Mencken (Copyright, 1925, by The Evening Sun. Republication without credit not permitted.) I. The eminent Nation announces with relish "the organization of a national committee of 100 to induce Congress to prohibit the inter-State traffic in revolvers," and offers the pious judgement that it is "a step forward." "Crime statistics," it appears, "show that 90% of the murders that take place are committed by the use of the pistol, and every year there are hundreds of cases of accidental homicides because someone did not know that his revolver was loaded." The new law or is it to be a constitutional amendment? will do away with all that. "It will not be easy," of course, "to draw a law that will permit exceptions for public officers and bank guards" to say nothing of Prohibition agents and other such legalized murderers. "But soon even these officials may get on without revolvers." More than once in this place, I have lavished high praise upon the Nation. All that praise has been deserved, and I am by no means disposed to go back on it. The Nation is one of the few honest and intelligent periodicals published in the United States. It stands clear of official buncombe; it prints every week a great mass of news that the newspapers seem to miss; it interprets that news with a freedom and a sagacity that few newspaper editors can even so much as imagine. If it shut up shop then the country would plunge almost unchallenged into the lowest depths of Coolidgism, Rotarianism, Stantaquaism and other such bilge. It has been for a decade past, the chief consolation of the small and forlorn minority of civilized Americans. But the Nation, in its days, has been a Liberal organ, and its old follies die hard. Ever and anon, in the midst of its most eloquent and effective pleas for Liberty, its eye wanders weakly toward Law. At such moments the old lust to lift 'em up overcomes it, and it makes a brilliant and melodramatic ass of itself. Such a moment was upon it when it printed the paragraph that I have quoted. Into that paragraph of not over 200 words it packed as much maudlin and nonsensical blather, as much idiotic reasoning and banal moralizing, as Dr. Coolidge gets into a speech of two hours' length. II. The new law that it advocated, indeed, is one of the most absurd specimens of jackass legislation ever heard of, even in this paradise of legislative donkeyism. Its single and sole effect would be to exaggerate enormously all of the evils it proposes to put down. It would not take pistols out of the hands of rogues and fools; it would simply take them out of the hands of honest men. The gunman today has great advantages everywhere. He has artillery in his pocket, and he may assume that, in the large cities, at least two-thirds of his prospective victims are unarmed. But if the Nation's proposed law (or amendment) were passed and enforced, he could assume safely that all of them were unarmed. Here I do not indulge in theory. The hard facts are publicly on display in New York State, where a law of exactly the same tenor is already on the books the so-called Sullivan Law. In order to get it there, of course, the Second Amendment had to be severely strained, but the uplifters advocated the straining unanimously, and to the tune of loud hosannas, and the courts, as usual, were willing to sign on the dotted line. It is now a dreadful felony in New York to "have or possess" a pistol. Even if one keeps it locked in a bureau drawer at home, one may be sent to the hoosegow for ten years. More, men who have done no more are frequently bumped off. The cops, suspecting a man, say, of political heresy, raid his house and look for copies of the Nation. They find none, and are thus baffled but at the bottom of a trunk they do find a rusted and battered revolver. So he goes to trial for violating the Sullivan Law, and is presently being psycho-analyzed by the uplifters at Sing Sing. With what result? With the general result that New York, even more than Chicago, is the heaven of footpads, hijackers, gunmen and all other such armed thugs. Their hands upon their pistols, they know they are safe. Not one citizen out of a hundred that they tackle is armed for getting a license to keep a revolver is a difficult business, and carrying one without it is more dangerous than submitting to robbery. So the gunmen flourish and give humble thanks to God. Like the bootleggers, they are hot and unanimous for Law Enforcement. III. To all this, of course, the uplifters have a ready answer. (At having ready answers, indeed, they always shine!) The New York thugs, they say, are armed to the teeth because New Jersey and Connecticut lack Sullivan Laws. When one of them wants a revolver all he has to do is to cross the river or take a short trolley trip. Or, to quote the Nation, he may "simply remit to one of the large firms which advertise the sale of their weapons by mail." The remedy is the usual dose: More law. Congress is besought to "prohibit the inter-State traffic in revolvers, especially to bar them from the mails." It is all very familiar, and very depressing. Find me a man so vast an imbecile that he seriously believes that this prohibition would work. What would become of the millions of revolvers already in the hands of the American people if not in New York, then at least everywhere else? (I own two and my brother owns at least a dozen, though neither of us has fired one since the close of the Liberty Loan drives.) Would the cops at once confiscate this immense stock, or would it tend to concentrate in the hands of the criminal classes? If they attempted confiscation, how would they get my two revolvers lawfully acquired and possessed without breaking into my house? Would I wait for them docilely or would I sell out, in anticipation, to the nearest pistol bootlegger? The first effect of the enactment of such a law, obviously, would be to make the market price of all small arms rise sharply. A pistol which is now worth, second-hand, perhaps $2, would quickly reach a value of $10 or even $20. This is not theorizing; we have had plenty of experience with gin. Well, imagining such prices to prevail, would the generality of men surrender to the Polizei, or would they sell them to the bootleggers? And if they sold them to the bootleggers, what would become of them in the end: would they fall into the hands of honest men or into the hands of rogues? IV. But the gunmen, I take it, would not suffer from the high cost of artillery for long. The moment the price got really attractive, the cops themselves would begin to sell their pistols, and with them the whole corps of Prohibition blacklegs, private detectives, deputy sheriffs, and other such scoundrels. And smuggling, as in the case of alcoholic beverages, would become an organized industry, large in scale and lordly in profits. Imagine the supplies that would pour over the long Canadian and Mexican borders! And into every port on every incoming ship! Certainly, the history of the attempt to enforce Prohibition should give even uplifters pause. A case of whisky is a bulky object. It must be transported on a truck. It can not be disguised. Yet in every American city today a case of whisky may be bought almost as readily as a pair of shoes despite all the armed guards along the Canadian border, and all the guard ships off the ports, and all the raiding, snooping and murdering everywhere else. Thus the camel gets in and yet the proponents of the new anti-pistol law tell us that they will catch the gnat! Go tell it to the Marines! Such a law, indeed, would simply make gun-toting swagger and fashionable, as Prohibition has made guzzling swagger and fashionable. When I was a youngster there were no Prohibition agents; hence I never so much as drank a glass of beer until I was nearly 19. Today, Law Enforcement is the eighth sacrament and the Methodist Board of Temperance, Prohibition and Public Morals is itself the authority for the sad news that the young of the land are full of gin. I remember, in my youth, a time when the cops tried to prohibit the game of catty. At once every boy in Baltimore consecrated his whole time and energy to it. Finally, the cops gave up their crusade. Almost instantly catty disappeared. V. The real victim of moral legislation is almost always the honest, law-abiding, well-meaning citizen what the late William Graham Summer called the Forgotten Man. Prohibition makes it impossible for him to take a harmless drink, cheaply and in a decent manner. In the same way the Harrison Act puts heavy burdens upon the physician who has need of prescribing narcotic drugs for a patient, honestly and for good ends. But the drunkard still gets all the alcohol that he can hold, and the drug addict is still full of morphine and cocaine. By precisely the same route the Nation's new law would deprive the reputable citizen of the arms he needs for protection, and hand them over to the rogues that he needs protection against. Ten or fifteen years ago there was an epidemic of suicide by bichloride of mercury tablets. At once the uplifters proposed laws forbidding their sale, and such laws are now in force in many States, including New York. The consequences are classical. A New Yorker, desiring to lay in an antiseptic for household use, is deprived of the cheapest, most convenient and most effective. And the suicide rate in New York, as elsewhere, is still steadily rising. ****************************************************************** W. Brewster Gillett wbg@hevanet.com Portland, Oregon USA *********************************************************************** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 29 Apr 2000 13:57:01 PST On Apr 29, shezza@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Clinton supporter Alan Dershowitz, Harvard Law School: "The administration acted lawlessly...it's a dangerous day for all Americans." Joseph Sobran: "When the Soviet Empire crumbled, it appeared that even liberals finally realized that Reagan's view of Communism was shared by everyone who had lived under Communism. It shouldn't have taken the destruction of the Wall to prove that; the Wall itself was sufficient testimony. Communism is a system that has to lock people in, threatening them with death if they try to escape from its 'utopia'." Joe Schembrie: "Liberalism has always had a dark psychosis whereby guilt drives evil and evil drives guilt -- a morality of sadism which aborts innocent babies but spares murderers from execution, which frees violent criminals but disarms law-abiding citizens, which bombs a peaceful democratic nation on the other side of the world but dutifully returns runaway child-slaves to the terrorist despotism in our own backyard." William Murchison: "A great nation, to be great, is required to do great things, not small, grubby things such as breaking down the doors of private homes and snatching up six year olds at the point of a gun. Americans are collectively diminished by the Holy Saturday Raid. So is our president -- but by this time, that won't astound very many Americans." Tod Lindberg: "If you were looking for a way to galvanize conservative opinion in this country...you wouldn't even dare hope that the incumbent Democratic administration would be so stupid as to send in machine gun-toting federal agents to snatch a six-year-old shipwreck survivor in order to send him back to Cuba." Rep. Ron Paul: "The rule of law and the Constitution have been completely ignored and a police-state mentality dictated the actions by the Administration and carried out by Janet Reno. ... Custody cases are properly handled in a family court, with contesting sides present. After hearing the case a judge rules with the loser having the right to appeal." Roger Pilon: "The Justice Department's night raid on the Miami home of Elian Gonzalez was an unconscionable exercise of police power, made all the worse by its exercise at the very moment a settlement was being reached. ... This is a shameful episode in this nation's history." Gary Aldrich: "What happened Saturday is very symbolic of what always happens when ultimate power is corrupted. It's also what happens when good men do nothing." Sister Jeanne O'Laughlin, the university president who was selected as the neutral party to host the meeting between Elian and his grandmothers: "What, if not for fear, could keep a person from making a 30-minute trip to reclaim his son?" National Review's Kate O'Beirne: "A loving father, who claims to be free from Castro's control, would have been in Florida with his son months ago. Once he finally arrived, he would have walked across broken glass to see his son for an hour... Elian's Miami relatives are losing in the court of public opinion, but they have passed Solomon's test with flying colors." Cal Thomas: "We have the photographic equivalent of the stained dress." Linda Bowles: "The docility and gullibility of so many Americans is a delight for government overlords." Jacob G. Hornberger: "The raid was ... a denigration of the rule of law and an elevation of the rule of terror.... The winner in all this, of course, is Fidel Castro, who has...displayed to the world that the U.S. government behaves just like his." Robert Novak: "Contrary to Justice Department claims that the Florida relatives defied the law, the highest federal court to hear the case last Wednesday roundly rejected Attorney General Janet Reno's arguments." Paul M. Weyrich: "How we have let down those patriots gone before us who fought for freedom in countless wars." Rep. Ron Paul: "It is one thing to be a coward with one's own life, but it is entirely immoral to run in fear when it comes to defending the constitutional rights we are sworn to uphold." Don Feder: "Clinton has finally convinced me of the case for gun control to this extent: While he and Reno are in charge, no federal agent should be allowed to carry firearms." White House spokesman Joe Lockhart, condemning Republicans who have been critical of the commando raid in Little Havana: "In Washington...you make a judgement and then you try to get the information." Rich Galen: "The raid on the two-bedroom house was almost worth it if only to watch Jesse Jackson, on Tony Snow's Sunday show, defending an armed pre-dawn raid by the U.S. government on a minority household." Paul Craig Roberts: "The solution to the Elian problem is to trade Castro the Democratic Party, Janet Reno and the liberal media for Elian. We could go even further and trade Castro all our Northeastern and West Coast liberals for the Cuban population. That way, everyone would be happy." Jay Leno: "Did you watch the Annual White House Easter Egg Roll? Hundreds of children rolling eggs along the lawn with spoons. Nice to see the government is doing something for children other than psychologically scarring them for life. Castro is getting mad now. He says that if Elian doesn't come back to Cuba soon, he will lose his job at the Nike factory." David Letterman: "Elian Gonzalez in now with his father in the Washington, D.C., area and I'm thinking what a year this kid has had. When he gets back to Cuba he's going to be behind. He will have missed a lot. For example, he will have missed an entire semester of Commie brainwashing. He'll have to make that up somehow." Blaise Pascal: "Justice without strength is helpless, strength without justice is tyrannical.... Unable to make what is just strong, we have made what is strong just." John Locke: "Tyranny is the exercise of power beyond right...when the governor...makes not the law, but his will, the rule." [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Second Amendment (fwd) Date: 29 Apr 2000 13:56:13 PST On Apr 29, Charles F. Nawrocki wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Another great letter from Congressman Ron Paul./////////// >From: "Paul, Rep." >Subject: Second Amendment >Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 16:48:31 -0400 >X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) > >Thank you for contacting my office to express your support of the >Second Amendment. I appreciate hearing form you and I share your >strong opposition to any legislation that would infringe on the >individual right to keep and bear arms. > >There is a great need to repeal the unconstitutional laws, passed >over the last sixty-two years, which undermine our rights to defend >one's life and property. Congress has made it increasingly >expensive, difficult, and - in some cases - impossible for law- >abiding gun owners to exercise their rights. > >As well as cosponsoring various pro-gun bills, I have introduced >two bills that are steps in the right direction to regain what we >have lost through past unconstitutional laws and executive orders. > >The first one is H.R. 1179, "The Second Amendment Act of 1999." >This bill is threefold as it will repeal the Brady "instant" >registration check (thus no national registry, no taxes, etc.), >repeal the semi-auto ban and amend the Gun Control Act of 1968 by >deleting the "sporting purposes" test, which allows the Secretary >of Treasury to regulate away "non sporting" firearms. The >government will no longer be able to classify a firearm (handgun, >rifle, shotgun) as a "destructive device" simply because the >Secretary believes the gun to be "non sporting." > >The second, H.R. 407, is a national reciprocity bill for the right >of concealed carry. This allows citizens to carry from state to >state without the need to apply for another permit (thus no >fingerprints, taxes, fees, etc.) and therefore would be allowed to >travel and enjoy the same right of self-defense. It also grants >reciprocity to citizens who come from genuine right to carry >states, such as Vermont which requires no permit to carry. > >Anti-gun proponents should remember, criminals have a safer working >environment when the courts deny their duties in executing >penalties meanwhile, the federal government disarms the law >abiding. > >Please be assured that you can count on me to continue fighting for >the protection of the Second Amendment. Again, thank you for >taking the time to contact my office with your concerns. > >Sincerely, >Ron Paul [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: larry ball Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 29 Apr 2000 19:09:58 -0500 Garbage!!! When you going to get it straight? Elian is belongs to and with his father. You are acting just like Janet Reno did when she sent Federal Agents into Waco because of child abuse. All of you who oppose Elian be reunited with his father and returning to Cuba with him have bought into "it takes a village to raise a child!" The Federal raid to free, yes free, Elian from a de facto kidnapping situation was legal and proper. They should have done it three months earlier. Larry Ball lball@inetnebr.com Bill Vance wrote: > On Apr 29, shezza@aol.com wrote: > > [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] > > Clinton supporter Alan Dershowitz, Harvard Law School: "The administration > acted lawlessly...it's a dangerous day for all Americans." > > Joseph Sobran: "When the Soviet Empire crumbled, it appeared that even > liberals finally realized that Reagan's view of Communism was shared by > everyone who had lived under Communism. It shouldn't have taken the > destruction of the Wall to prove that; the Wall itself was sufficient > testimony. Communism is a system that has to lock people in, threatening them > with death if they try to escape from its 'utopia'." > > Joe Schembrie: "Liberalism has always had a dark psychosis whereby guilt > drives evil and evil drives guilt -- a morality of sadism which aborts > innocent babies but spares murderers from execution, which frees violent > criminals but disarms law-abiding citizens, which bombs a peaceful democratic > nation on the other side of the world but dutifully returns runaway > child-slaves to the terrorist despotism in our own backyard." > > William Murchison: "A great nation, to be great, is required to do great > things, not small, grubby things such as breaking down the doors of private > homes and snatching up six year olds at the point of a gun. Americans are > collectively diminished by the Holy Saturday Raid. So is our president -- but > by this time, that won't astound very many Americans." > > Tod Lindberg: "If you were looking for a way to galvanize conservative > opinion in this country...you wouldn't even dare hope that the incumbent > Democratic administration would be so stupid as to send in machine gun-toting > federal agents to snatch a six-year-old shipwreck survivor in order to send > him back to Cuba." > > Rep. Ron Paul: "The rule of law and the Constitution have been completely > ignored and a police-state mentality dictated the actions by the > Administration and carried out by Janet Reno. ... Custody cases are properly > handled in a family court, with contesting sides present. After hearing the > case a judge rules with the loser having the right to appeal." > > Roger Pilon: "The Justice Department's night raid on the Miami home of Elian > Gonzalez was an unconscionable exercise of police power, made all the > worse by its exercise at the very moment a settlement was being > reached. ... This is a shameful episode in this nation's history." > > Gary Aldrich: "What happened Saturday is very symbolic of what always > happens when ultimate power is corrupted. It's also what happens when good > men do nothing." > > Sister Jeanne O'Laughlin, the university president who was selected as the > neutral party to host the meeting between Elian and his grandmothers: "What, > if not for fear, could keep a person from making a 30-minute trip to reclaim > his son?" > > National Review's Kate O'Beirne: "A loving father, who claims to be free from > Castro's control, would have been in Florida with his son months ago. Once he > finally arrived, > he would have walked across broken glass to see his son for an hour... > Elian's Miami relatives are losing in the court of public opinion, but they > have passed Solomon's test with flying colors." > > Cal Thomas: "We have the photographic equivalent of the stained dress." > > Linda Bowles: "The docility and gullibility of so many Americans is a delight > for > government overlords." > > Jacob G. Hornberger: "The raid was ... a denigration of the rule of law and > an elevation of the rule of terror.... The winner in all this, of course, is > Fidel Castro, who > has...displayed to the world that the U.S. government behaves just like his." > > Robert Novak: "Contrary to Justice Department claims that the Florida > relatives defied the law, the highest federal court to hear the case last > Wednesday roundly rejected Attorney General Janet Reno's arguments." > > Paul M. Weyrich: "How we have let down those patriots gone before us who > fought for freedom in countless wars." > > Rep. Ron Paul: "It is one thing to be a coward with one's own life, but it > is entirely immoral to run in fear when it comes to defending the > constitutional rights we are sworn to uphold." > > Don Feder: "Clinton has finally convinced me of the case for > gun control to this extent: While he and Reno are in charge, no > federal agent should be allowed to carry firearms." > > White House spokesman Joe Lockhart, condemning Republicans who have been > critical of the commando raid in Little Havana: "In Washington...you make a > judgement and then you try to get the information." > > Rich Galen: "The raid on the two-bedroom house was almost worth it if only > to > watch Jesse Jackson, on Tony Snow's Sunday show, defending an armed > pre-dawn raid by the U.S. government on a minority household." > > Paul Craig Roberts: "The solution to the Elian problem is to trade Castro the > Democratic Party, Janet Reno and the liberal media for Elian. We could go > even further and trade Castro all our Northeastern and West Coast liberals > for the Cuban population. That way, everyone would be happy." > > Jay Leno: "Did you watch the Annual White House Easter Egg Roll? Hundreds of > children rolling eggs along the lawn with spoons. Nice to see the government > is doing something for children other than psychologically scarring them for > life. Castro is getting mad now. He says that if Elian doesn't come back to > Cuba soon, he will lose his job at the Nike factory." > > David Letterman: "Elian Gonzalez in now with his father in the Washington, > D.C., area and I'm thinking what a year this kid has had. When he gets back > to Cuba he's going to be behind. He will have missed a lot. For example, he > will have missed an entire semester of Commie brainwashing. He'll have to > make that up somehow." > > Blaise Pascal: "Justice without strength is helpless, strength without > justice is tyrannical.... Unable to make what is just strong, we have made > what is strong just." > > John Locke: "Tyranny is the exercise of power beyond right...when the > governor...makes not the law, but his will, the rule." > > [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] > > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- > > - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 29 Apr 2000 17:36:50 -0700 The problem of child custody is a state problem, not a federal problem. In any case, I think we should be very careful in advocating the use of any of the 70+/86,000 federal police to use no-knock warrants for any reason whatsoever. The mere existence of these forces is unConstitutional, IMHO. No-knock warrants are both stupid and unConstitutional, and I don't care what the Supremes say about it. All of these stupidities are desensitizing both the public and the fedgoons to this sort of 'solutions'. One step at a time, we have ended in a police state, where gov power has few limits. It continues from here. BTW: The parents were never married, and the Father showed no interest in the kid until Castro got involved. Freedom is the only measure we should accept wrt gov actions. In this case, our gov is sending a kid back to un-freedom, hunger and a real high child mortality rate. Based upon his mother's actions, this is the kind of person we should be keeping. Keep the father here if it is so important to unit father and son. Lew > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:10 PM > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Cc: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > Garbage!!! > > When you going to get it straight? Elian is belongs to and with > his father. You > are acting just like Janet Reno did when she sent Federal Agents > into Waco because > of child abuse. All of you who oppose Elian be reunited with his > father and > returning to Cuba with him have bought into "it takes a village > to raise a child!" > > The Federal raid to free, yes free, Elian from a de facto > kidnapping situation was > legal and proper. They should have done it three months earlier. > > Larry Ball > lball@inetnebr.com > > Bill Vance wrote: > > > On Apr 29, shezza@aol.com wrote: > > > > [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows > --------------------] > > > > Clinton supporter Alan Dershowitz, Harvard Law School: "The > administration > > acted lawlessly...it's a dangerous day for all Americans." > > > > Joseph Sobran: "When the Soviet Empire crumbled, it appeared that even > > liberals finally realized that Reagan's view of Communism was shared by > > everyone who had lived under Communism. It shouldn't have taken the > > destruction of the Wall to prove that; the Wall itself was sufficient > > testimony. Communism is a system that has to lock people in, > threatening them > > with death if they try to escape from its 'utopia'." > > > > Joe Schembrie: "Liberalism has always had a dark psychosis > whereby guilt > > drives evil and evil drives guilt -- a morality of sadism which aborts > > innocent babies but spares murderers from execution, which frees violent > > criminals but disarms law-abiding citizens, which bombs a > peaceful democratic > > nation on the other side of the world but dutifully returns runaway > > child-slaves to the terrorist despotism in our own backyard." > > > > William Murchison: "A great nation, to be great, is required > to do great > > things, not small, grubby things such as breaking down the > doors of private > > homes and snatching up six year olds at the point of a gun. > Americans are > > collectively diminished by the Holy Saturday Raid. So is our > president -- but > > by this time, that won't astound very many Americans." > > > > Tod Lindberg: "If you were looking for a way to galvanize conservative > > opinion in this country...you wouldn't even dare hope that the incumbent > > Democratic administration would be so stupid as to send in > machine gun-toting > > federal agents to snatch a six-year-old shipwreck survivor in > order to send > > him back to Cuba." > > > > Rep. Ron Paul: "The rule of law and the Constitution have been > completely > > ignored and a police-state mentality dictated the actions by the > > Administration and carried out by Janet Reno. ... Custody cases > are properly > > handled in a family court, with contesting sides present. After > hearing the > > case a judge rules with the loser having the right to appeal." > > > > Roger Pilon: "The Justice Department's night raid on the Miami > home of Elian > > Gonzalez was an unconscionable exercise of police power, made all the > > worse by its exercise at the very moment a settlement was being > > reached. ... This is a shameful episode in this nation's history." > > > > Gary Aldrich: "What happened Saturday is very symbolic of what always > > happens when ultimate power is corrupted. It's also what > happens when good > > men do nothing." > > > > Sister Jeanne O'Laughlin, the university president who was > selected as the > > neutral party to host the meeting between Elian and his > grandmothers: "What, > > if not for fear, could keep a person from making a 30-minute > trip to reclaim > > his son?" > > > > National Review's Kate O'Beirne: "A loving father, who claims > to be free from > > Castro's control, would have been in Florida with his son > months ago. Once he > > finally arrived, > > he would have walked across broken glass to see his son for an hour... > > Elian's Miami relatives are losing in the court of public > opinion, but they > > have passed Solomon's test with flying colors." > > > > Cal Thomas: "We have the photographic equivalent of the stained dress." > > > > Linda Bowles: "The docility and gullibility of so many > Americans is a delight > > for > > government overlords." > > > > Jacob G. Hornberger: "The raid was ... a denigration of the > rule of law and > > an elevation of the rule of terror.... The winner in all this, > of course, is > > Fidel Castro, who > > has...displayed to the world that the U.S. government behaves > just like his." > > > > Robert Novak: "Contrary to Justice Department claims that the Florida > > relatives defied the law, the highest federal court to hear the > case last > > Wednesday roundly rejected Attorney General Janet Reno's arguments." > > > > Paul M. Weyrich: "How we have let down those patriots gone > before us who > > fought for freedom in countless wars." > > > > Rep. Ron Paul: "It is one thing to be a coward with one's own > life, but it > > is entirely immoral to run in fear when it comes to defending the > > constitutional rights we are sworn to uphold." > > > > Don Feder: "Clinton has finally convinced me of the case for > > gun control to this extent: While he and Reno are in charge, no > > federal agent should be allowed to carry firearms." > > > > White House spokesman Joe Lockhart, condemning Republicans who have been > > critical of the commando raid in Little Havana: "In > Washington...you make a > > judgement and then you try to get the information." > > > > Rich Galen: "The raid on the two-bedroom house was almost > worth it if only > > to > > watch Jesse Jackson, on Tony Snow's Sunday show, defending an armed > > pre-dawn raid by the U.S. government on a minority household." > > > > Paul Craig Roberts: "The solution to the Elian problem is to > trade Castro the > > Democratic Party, Janet Reno and the liberal media for Elian. > We could go > > even further and trade Castro all our Northeastern and West > Coast liberals > > for the Cuban population. That way, everyone would be happy." > > > > Jay Leno: "Did you watch the Annual White House Easter Egg > Roll? Hundreds of > > children rolling eggs along the lawn with spoons. Nice to see > the government > > is doing something for children other than psychologically > scarring them for > > life. Castro is getting mad now. He says that if Elian doesn't > come back to > > Cuba soon, he will lose his job at the Nike factory." > > > > David Letterman: "Elian Gonzalez in now with his father in the > Washington, > > D.C., area and I'm thinking what a year this kid has had. When > he gets back > > to Cuba he's going to be behind. He will have missed a lot. For > example, he > > will have missed an entire semester of Commie brainwashing. > He'll have to > > make that up somehow." > > > > Blaise Pascal: "Justice without strength is helpless, strength without > > justice is tyrannical.... Unable to make what is just strong, > we have made > > what is strong just." > > > > John Locke: "Tyranny is the exercise of power beyond right...when the > > governor...makes not the law, but his will, the rule." > > > > [------------------------- end of forwarded message > ------------------------] > > > > -- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! > ***** RKBA! > > > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he > who hath no > > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment > and buy a > > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | > sword.--Jesus Christ > > > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > > > > - > > > - > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "." Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 29 Apr 2000 17:49:19 -0700 Elian acquired protection under U.S. law and the U.S. Constitution the moment he entered our country -- but then, so did his father. Paternity alone is enough for custody unless there is a divorce in progress. Elian should have been returned to his father within three days of arrival, but instead, the waffling of the Clinton Buffobn Squad handling the case eventually made it necessary to do the Waco-Thang. -----Original Message----- Cc: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com >Garbage!!! > >When you going to get it straight? Elian is belongs to and with his father. You >are acting just like Janet Reno did when she sent Federal Agents into Waco because >of child abuse. All of you who oppose Elian be reunited with his father and >returning to Cuba with him have bought into "it takes a village to raise a child!" > >The Federal raid to free, yes free, Elian from a de facto kidnapping situation was >legal and proper. They should have done it three months earlier. > >Larry Ball >lball@inetnebr.com > >Bill Vance wrote: > >> On Apr 29, shezza@aol.com wrote: >> >> [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] >> >> Clinton supporter Alan Dershowitz, Harvard Law School: "The administration >> acted lawlessly...it's a dangerous day for all Americans." >> >> Joseph Sobran: "When the Soviet Empire crumbled, it appeared that even >> liberals finally realized that Reagan's view of Communism was shared by >> everyone who had lived under Communism. It shouldn't have taken the >> destruction of the Wall to prove that; the Wall itself was sufficient >> testimony. Communism is a system that has to lock people in, threatening them >> with death if they try to escape from its 'utopia'." >> >> Joe Schembrie: "Liberalism has always had a dark psychosis whereby guilt >> drives evil and evil drives guilt -- a morality of sadism which aborts >> innocent babies but spares murderers from execution, which frees violent >> criminals but disarms law-abiding citizens, which bombs a peaceful democratic >> nation on the other side of the world but dutifully returns runaway >> child-slaves to the terrorist despotism in our own backyard." >> >> William Murchison: "A great nation, to be great, is required to do great >> things, not small, grubby things such as breaking down the doors of private >> homes and snatching up six year olds at the point of a gun. Americans are >> collectively diminished by the Holy Saturday Raid. So is our president -- but >> by this time, that won't astound very many Americans." >> >> Tod Lindberg: "If you were looking for a way to galvanize conservative >> opinion in this country...you wouldn't even dare hope that the incumbent >> Democratic administration would be so stupid as to send in machine gun-toting >> federal agents to snatch a six-year-old shipwreck survivor in order to send >> him back to Cuba." >> >> Rep. Ron Paul: "The rule of law and the Constitution have been completely >> ignored and a police-state mentality dictated the actions by the >> Administration and carried out by Janet Reno. ... Custody cases are properly >> handled in a family court, with contesting sides present. After hearing the >> case a judge rules with the loser having the right to appeal." >> >> Roger Pilon: "The Justice Department's night raid on the Miami home of Elian >> Gonzalez was an unconscionable exercise of police power, made all the >> worse by its exercise at the very moment a settlement was being >> reached. ... This is a shameful episode in this nation's history." >> >> Gary Aldrich: "What happened Saturday is very symbolic of what always >> happens when ultimate power is corrupted. It's also what happens when good >> men do nothing." >> >> Sister Jeanne O'Laughlin, the university president who was selected as the >> neutral party to host the meeting between Elian and his grandmothers: "What, >> if not for fear, could keep a person from making a 30-minute trip to reclaim >> his son?" >> >> National Review's Kate O'Beirne: "A loving father, who claims to be free from >> Castro's control, would have been in Florida with his son months ago. Once he >> finally arrived, >> he would have walked across broken glass to see his son for an hour... >> Elian's Miami relatives are losing in the court of public opinion, but they >> have passed Solomon's test with flying colors." >> >> Cal Thomas: "We have the photographic equivalent of the stained dress." >> >> Linda Bowles: "The docility and gullibility of so many Americans is a delight >> for >> government overlords." >> >> Jacob G. Hornberger: "The raid was ... a denigration of the rule of law and >> an elevation of the rule of terror.... The winner in all this, of course, is >> Fidel Castro, who >> has...displayed to the world that the U.S. government behaves just like his." >> >> Robert Novak: "Contrary to Justice Department claims that the Florida >> relatives defied the law, the highest federal court to hear the case last >> Wednesday roundly rejected Attorney General Janet Reno's arguments." >> >> Paul M. Weyrich: "How we have let down those patriots gone before us who >> fought for freedom in countless wars." >> >> Rep. Ron Paul: "It is one thing to be a coward with one's own life, but it >> is entirely immoral to run in fear when it comes to defending the >> constitutional rights we are sworn to uphold." >> >> Don Feder: "Clinton has finally convinced me of the case for >> gun control to this extent: While he and Reno are in charge, no >> federal agent should be allowed to carry firearms." >> >> White House spokesman Joe Lockhart, condemning Republicans who have been >> critical of the commando raid in Little Havana: "In Washington...you make a >> judgement and then you try to get the information." >> >> Rich Galen: "The raid on the two-bedroom house was almost worth it if only >> to >> watch Jesse Jackson, on Tony Snow's Sunday show, defending an armed >> pre-dawn raid by the U.S. government on a minority household." >> >> Paul Craig Roberts: "The solution to the Elian problem is to trade Castro the >> Democratic Party, Janet Reno and the liberal media for Elian. We could go >> even further and trade Castro all our Northeastern and West Coast liberals >> for the Cuban population. That way, everyone would be happy." >> >> Jay Leno: "Did you watch the Annual White House Easter Egg Roll? Hundreds of >> children rolling eggs along the lawn with spoons. Nice to see the government >> is doing something for children other than psychologically scarring them for >> life. Castro is getting mad now. He says that if Elian doesn't come back to >> Cuba soon, he will lose his job at the Nike factory." >> >> David Letterman: "Elian Gonzalez in now with his father in the Washington, >> D.C., area and I'm thinking what a year this kid has had. When he gets back >> to Cuba he's going to be behind. He will have missed a lot. For example, he >> will have missed an entire semester of Commie brainwashing. He'll have to >> make that up somehow." >> >> Blaise Pascal: "Justice without strength is helpless, strength without >> justice is tyrannical.... Unable to make what is just strong, we have made >> what is strong just." >> >> John Locke: "Tyranny is the exercise of power beyond right...when the >> governor...makes not the law, but his will, the rule." >> >> [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] >> >> -- >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >> RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! >> ----------------+----------+--------------------------+------------------ --- >> An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no >> weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his >> hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a >> on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ >> ----------------+----------+--------------------------+------------------ --- >> >> - > > >- > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "." Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 29 Apr 2000 17:51:15 -0700 There never was a child's legal custody situation involved. Everyone knew who and where the father was. The boy was in the country illegally and should have been returned to his father under that auspecies from the beginning. -----Original Message----- > >The problem of child custody is a state problem, not a federal problem. > >In any case, I think we should be very careful in advocating the use of >any of the 70+/86,000 federal police to use no-knock warrants for any reason >whatsoever. > >The mere existence of these forces is unConstitutional, IMHO. No-knock >warrants >are both stupid and unConstitutional, and I don't care what the Supremes say >about >it. > >All of these stupidities are desensitizing both the public and the fedgoons >to >this sort of 'solutions'. One step at a time, we have ended in a police >state, >where gov power has few limits. It continues from here. > >BTW: The parents were never married, and the Father showed no interest >in the kid until Castro got involved. > >Freedom is the only measure we should accept wrt gov actions. In this case, >our gov is sending a kid back to un-freedom, hunger and a real high child >mortality rate. Based upon his mother's actions, this is the kind of person >we should be >keeping. Keep the father here if it is so important to unit father and son. > >Lew > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball >> Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:10 PM >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com >> Cc: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) >> >> >> Garbage!!! >> >> When you going to get it straight? Elian is belongs to and with >> his father. You >> are acting just like Janet Reno did when she sent Federal Agents >> into Waco because >> of child abuse. All of you who oppose Elian be reunited with his >> father and >> returning to Cuba with him have bought into "it takes a village >> to raise a child!" >> >> The Federal raid to free, yes free, Elian from a de facto >> kidnapping situation was >> legal and proper. They should have done it three months earlier. >> >> Larry Ball >> lball@inetnebr.com >> >> Bill Vance wrote: >> >> > On Apr 29, shezza@aol.com wrote: >> > >> > [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows >> --------------------] >> > >> > Clinton supporter Alan Dershowitz, Harvard Law School: "The >> administration >> > acted lawlessly...it's a dangerous day for all Americans." >> > >> > Joseph Sobran: "When the Soviet Empire crumbled, it appeared that even >> > liberals finally realized that Reagan's view of Communism was shared by >> > everyone who had lived under Communism. It shouldn't have taken the >> > destruction of the Wall to prove that; the Wall itself was sufficient >> > testimony. Communism is a system that has to lock people in, >> threatening them >> > with death if they try to escape from its 'utopia'." >> > >> > Joe Schembrie: "Liberalism has always had a dark psychosis >> whereby guilt >> > drives evil and evil drives guilt -- a morality of sadism which aborts >> > innocent babies but spares murderers from execution, which frees violent >> > criminals but disarms law-abiding citizens, which bombs a >> peaceful democratic >> > nation on the other side of the world but dutifully returns runaway >> > child-slaves to the terrorist despotism in our own backyard." >> > >> > William Murchison: "A great nation, to be great, is required >> to do great >> > things, not small, grubby things such as breaking down the >> doors of private >> > homes and snatching up six year olds at the point of a gun. >> Americans are >> > collectively diminished by the Holy Saturday Raid. So is our >> president -- but >> > by this time, that won't astound very many Americans." >> > >> > Tod Lindberg: "If you were looking for a way to galvanize conservative >> > opinion in this country...you wouldn't even dare hope that the incumbent >> > Democratic administration would be so stupid as to send in >> machine gun-toting >> > federal agents to snatch a six-year-old shipwreck survivor in >> order to send >> > him back to Cuba." >> > >> > Rep. Ron Paul: "The rule of law and the Constitution have been >> completely >> > ignored and a police-state mentality dictated the actions by the >> > Administration and carried out by Janet Reno. ... Custody cases >> are properly >> > handled in a family court, with contesting sides present. After >> hearing the >> > case a judge rules with the loser having the right to appeal." >> > >> > Roger Pilon: "The Justice Department's night raid on the Miami >> home of Elian >> > Gonzalez was an unconscionable exercise of police power, made all the >> > worse by its exercise at the very moment a settlement was being >> > reached. ... This is a shameful episode in this nation's history." >> > >> > Gary Aldrich: "What happened Saturday is very symbolic of what always >> > happens when ultimate power is corrupted. It's also what >> happens when good >> > men do nothing." >> > >> > Sister Jeanne O'Laughlin, the university president who was >> selected as the >> > neutral party to host the meeting between Elian and his >> grandmothers: "What, >> > if not for fear, could keep a person from making a 30-minute >> trip to reclaim >> > his son?" >> > >> > National Review's Kate O'Beirne: "A loving father, who claims >> to be free from >> > Castro's control, would have been in Florida with his son >> months ago. Once he >> > finally arrived, >> > he would have walked across broken glass to see his son for an hour... >> > Elian's Miami relatives are losing in the court of public >> opinion, but they >> > have passed Solomon's test with flying colors." >> > >> > Cal Thomas: "We have the photographic equivalent of the stained dress." >> > >> > Linda Bowles: "The docility and gullibility of so many >> Americans is a delight >> > for >> > government overlords." >> > >> > Jacob G. Hornberger: "The raid was ... a denigration of the >> rule of law and >> > an elevation of the rule of terror.... The winner in all this, >> of course, is >> > Fidel Castro, who >> > has...displayed to the world that the U.S. government behaves >> just like his." >> > >> > Robert Novak: "Contrary to Justice Department claims that the Florida >> > relatives defied the law, the highest federal court to hear the >> case last >> > Wednesday roundly rejected Attorney General Janet Reno's arguments." >> > >> > Paul M. Weyrich: "How we have let down those patriots gone >> before us who >> > fought for freedom in countless wars." >> > >> > Rep. Ron Paul: "It is one thing to be a coward with one's own >> life, but it >> > is entirely immoral to run in fear when it comes to defending the >> > constitutional rights we are sworn to uphold." >> > >> > Don Feder: "Clinton has finally convinced me of the case for >> > gun control to this extent: While he and Reno are in charge, no >> > federal agent should be allowed to carry firearms." >> > >> > White House spokesman Joe Lockhart, condemning Republicans who have been >> > critical of the commando raid in Little Havana: "In >> Washington...you make a >> > judgement and then you try to get the information." >> > >> > Rich Galen: "The raid on the two-bedroom house was almost >> worth it if only >> > to >> > watch Jesse Jackson, on Tony Snow's Sunday show, defending an armed >> > pre-dawn raid by the U.S. government on a minority household." >> > >> > Paul Craig Roberts: "The solution to the Elian problem is to >> trade Castro the >> > Democratic Party, Janet Reno and the liberal media for Elian. >> We could go >> > even further and trade Castro all our Northeastern and West >> Coast liberals >> > for the Cuban population. That way, everyone would be happy." >> > >> > Jay Leno: "Did you watch the Annual White House Easter Egg >> Roll? Hundreds of >> > children rolling eggs along the lawn with spoons. Nice to see >> the government >> > is doing something for children other than psychologically >> scarring them for >> > life. Castro is getting mad now. He says that if Elian doesn't >> come back to >> > Cuba soon, he will lose his job at the Nike factory." >> > >> > David Letterman: "Elian Gonzalez in now with his father in the >> Washington, >> > D.C., area and I'm thinking what a year this kid has had. When >> he gets back >> > to Cuba he's going to be behind. He will have missed a lot. For >> example, he >> > will have missed an entire semester of Commie brainwashing. >> He'll have to >> > make that up somehow." >> > >> > Blaise Pascal: "Justice without strength is helpless, strength without >> > justice is tyrannical.... Unable to make what is just strong, >> we have made >> > what is strong just." >> > >> > John Locke: "Tyranny is the exercise of power beyond right...when the >> > governor...makes not the law, but his will, the rule." >> > >> > [------------------------- end of forwarded message >> ------------------------] >> > >> > -- >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> ---------- >> > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! >> ***** RKBA! >> > >> ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- >> ---------- >> > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he >> who hath no >> > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his >> > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment >> and buy a >> > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | >> sword.--Jesus Christ >> > >> ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- >> ---------- >> > >> > - >> >> >> - >> > > >- > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 29 Apr 2000 18:12:40 -0700 The kid had applied for asylum. He was therefore not in the country illegally. A federal court said so, in a scathing judgement favoring the US family/Elian and overruling the Justice Dept. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . > Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:51 PM > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > There never was a child's legal custody situation involved. Everyone knew > who and where the father was. The boy was in the country illegally and > should have been returned to his father under that auspecies from the > beginning. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lew Glendenning > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:27 PM > Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > >The problem of child custody is a state problem, not a federal problem. > > > >In any case, I think we should be very careful in advocating the use of > >any of the 70+/86,000 federal police to use no-knock warrants for any > reason > >whatsoever. > > > >The mere existence of these forces is unConstitutional, IMHO. No-knock > >warrants > >are both stupid and unConstitutional, and I don't care what the Supremes > say > >about > >it. > > > >All of these stupidities are desensitizing both the public and > the fedgoons > >to > >this sort of 'solutions'. One step at a time, we have ended in a police > >state, > >where gov power has few limits. It continues from here. > > > >BTW: The parents were never married, and the Father showed no interest > >in the kid until Castro got involved. > > > >Freedom is the only measure we should accept wrt gov actions. In this > case, > >our gov is sending a kid back to un-freedom, hunger and a real high child > >mortality rate. Based upon his mother's actions, this is the kind of > person > >we should be > >keeping. Keep the father here if it is so important to unit father and > son. > > > >Lew - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: larry ball Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 29 Apr 2000 20:02:49 -0500 Not in this case is it a state problem. We are dealing with an alien and this is an INS affair. Waco was a state affair that was invaded by illegal feds. Larry Ball lball@inetnebr. Lew Glendenning wrote: > The problem of child custody is a state problem, not a federal problem. > > In any case, I think we should be very careful in advocating the use of > any of the 70+/86,000 federal police to use no-knock warrants for any reason > whatsoever. > > The mere existence of these forces is unConstitutional, IMHO. No-knock > warrants > are both stupid and unConstitutional, and I don't care what the Supremes say > about > it. > > All of these stupidities are desensitizing both the public and the fedgoons > to > this sort of 'solutions'. One step at a time, we have ended in a police > state, > where gov power has few limits. It continues from here. > > BTW: The parents were never married, and the Father showed no interest > in the kid until Castro got involved. > > Freedom is the only measure we should accept wrt gov actions. In this case, > our gov is sending a kid back to un-freedom, hunger and a real high child > mortality rate. Based upon his mother's actions, this is the kind of person > we should be > keeping. Keep the father here if it is so important to unit father and son. > > Lew > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > > Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:10 PM > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > Cc: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > Garbage!!! > > > > When you going to get it straight? Elian is belongs to and with > > his father. You > > are acting just like Janet Reno did when she sent Federal Agents > > into Waco because > > of child abuse. All of you who oppose Elian be reunited with his > > father and > > returning to Cuba with him have bought into "it takes a village > > to raise a child!" > > > > The Federal raid to free, yes free, Elian from a de facto > > kidnapping situation was > > legal and proper. They should have done it three months earlier. > > > > Larry Ball > > lball@inetnebr.com > > > > Bill Vance wrote: > > > > > On Apr 29, shezza@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows > > --------------------] > > > > > > Clinton supporter Alan Dershowitz, Harvard Law School: "The > > administration > > > acted lawlessly...it's a dangerous day for all Americans." > > > > > > Joseph Sobran: "When the Soviet Empire crumbled, it appeared that even > > > liberals finally realized that Reagan's view of Communism was shared by > > > everyone who had lived under Communism. It shouldn't have taken the > > > destruction of the Wall to prove that; the Wall itself was sufficient > > > testimony. Communism is a system that has to lock people in, > > threatening them > > > with death if they try to escape from its 'utopia'." > > > > > > Joe Schembrie: "Liberalism has always had a dark psychosis > > whereby guilt > > > drives evil and evil drives guilt -- a morality of sadism which aborts > > > innocent babies but spares murderers from execution, which frees violent > > > criminals but disarms law-abiding citizens, which bombs a > > peaceful democratic > > > nation on the other side of the world but dutifully returns runaway > > > child-slaves to the terrorist despotism in our own backyard." > > > > > > William Murchison: "A great nation, to be great, is required > > to do great > > > things, not small, grubby things such as breaking down the > > doors of private > > > homes and snatching up six year olds at the point of a gun. > > Americans are > > > collectively diminished by the Holy Saturday Raid. So is our > > president -- but > > > by this time, that won't astound very many Americans." > > > > > > Tod Lindberg: "If you were looking for a way to galvanize conservative > > > opinion in this country...you wouldn't even dare hope that the incumbent > > > Democratic administration would be so stupid as to send in > > machine gun-toting > > > federal agents to snatch a six-year-old shipwreck survivor in > > order to send > > > him back to Cuba." > > > > > > Rep. Ron Paul: "The rule of law and the Constitution have been > > completely > > > ignored and a police-state mentality dictated the actions by the > > > Administration and carried out by Janet Reno. ... Custody cases > > are properly > > > handled in a family court, with contesting sides present. After > > hearing the > > > case a judge rules with the loser having the right to appeal." > > > > > > Roger Pilon: "The Justice Department's night raid on the Miami > > home of Elian > > > Gonzalez was an unconscionable exercise of police power, made all the > > > worse by its exercise at the very moment a settlement was being > > > reached. ... This is a shameful episode in this nation's history." > > > > > > Gary Aldrich: "What happened Saturday is very symbolic of what always > > > happens when ultimate power is corrupted. It's also what > > happens when good > > > men do nothing." > > > > > > Sister Jeanne O'Laughlin, the university president who was > > selected as the > > > neutral party to host the meeting between Elian and his > > grandmothers: "What, > > > if not for fear, could keep a person from making a 30-minute > > trip to reclaim > > > his son?" > > > > > > National Review's Kate O'Beirne: "A loving father, who claims > > to be free from > > > Castro's control, would have been in Florida with his son > > months ago. Once he > > > finally arrived, > > > he would have walked across broken glass to see his son for an hour... > > > Elian's Miami relatives are losing in the court of public > > opinion, but they > > > have passed Solomon's test with flying colors." > > > > > > Cal Thomas: "We have the photographic equivalent of the stained dress." > > > > > > Linda Bowles: "The docility and gullibility of so many > > Americans is a delight > > > for > > > government overlords." > > > > > > Jacob G. Hornberger: "The raid was ... a denigration of the > > rule of law and > > > an elevation of the rule of terror.... The winner in all this, > > of course, is > > > Fidel Castro, who > > > has...displayed to the world that the U.S. government behaves > > just like his." > > > > > > Robert Novak: "Contrary to Justice Department claims that the Florida > > > relatives defied the law, the highest federal court to hear the > > case last > > > Wednesday roundly rejected Attorney General Janet Reno's arguments." > > > > > > Paul M. Weyrich: "How we have let down those patriots gone > > before us who > > > fought for freedom in countless wars." > > > > > > Rep. Ron Paul: "It is one thing to be a coward with one's own > > life, but it > > > is entirely immoral to run in fear when it comes to defending the > > > constitutional rights we are sworn to uphold." > > > > > > Don Feder: "Clinton has finally convinced me of the case for > > > gun control to this extent: While he and Reno are in charge, no > > > federal agent should be allowed to carry firearms." > > > > > > White House spokesman Joe Lockhart, condemning Republicans who have been > > > critical of the commando raid in Little Havana: "In > > Washington...you make a > > > judgement and then you try to get the information." > > > > > > Rich Galen: "The raid on the two-bedroom house was almost > > worth it if only > > > to > > > watch Jesse Jackson, on Tony Snow's Sunday show, defending an armed > > > pre-dawn raid by the U.S. government on a minority household." > > > > > > Paul Craig Roberts: "The solution to the Elian problem is to > > trade Castro the > > > Democratic Party, Janet Reno and the liberal media for Elian. > > We could go > > > even further and trade Castro all our Northeastern and West > > Coast liberals > > > for the Cuban population. That way, everyone would be happy." > > > > > > Jay Leno: "Did you watch the Annual White House Easter Egg > > Roll? Hundreds of > > > children rolling eggs along the lawn with spoons. Nice to see > > the government > > > is doing something for children other than psychologically > > scarring them for > > > life. Castro is getting mad now. He says that if Elian doesn't > > come back to > > > Cuba soon, he will lose his job at the Nike factory." > > > > > > David Letterman: "Elian Gonzalez in now with his father in the > > Washington, > > > D.C., area and I'm thinking what a year this kid has had. When > > he gets back > > > to Cuba he's going to be behind. He will have missed a lot. For > > example, he > > > will have missed an entire semester of Commie brainwashing. > > He'll have to > > > make that up somehow." > > > > > > Blaise Pascal: "Justice without strength is helpless, strength without > > > justice is tyrannical.... Unable to make what is just strong, > > we have made > > > what is strong just." > > > > > > John Locke: "Tyranny is the exercise of power beyond right...when the > > > governor...makes not the law, but his will, the rule." > > > > > > [------------------------- end of forwarded message > > ------------------------] > > > > > > -- > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ---------- > > > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! > > ***** RKBA! > > > > > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > > ---------- > > > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he > > who hath no > > > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > > > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment > > and buy a > > > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | > > sword.--Jesus Christ > > > > > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > > ---------- > > > > > > - > > > > > > - > > > > - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 29 Apr 2000 18:13:49 -0700 There was never a marriage. Lew > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . > Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:49 PM > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > Elian acquired protection under U.S. law and the U.S. Constitution the > moment he entered our country -- but then, so did his father. Paternity > alone is enough for custody unless there is a divorce in progress. Elian > should have been returned to his father within three days of arrival, but > instead, the waffling of the Clinton Buffobn Squad handling the case > eventually made it necessary to do the Waco-Thang. > > -----Original Message----- > From: larry ball > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Cc: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > > Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:11 PM > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: larry ball Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 29 Apr 2000 20:05:20 -0500 sabitago, I can agree with what you say mostly. But it wasn't just the Clintonista's baffoon squad at work here. In a great part it was those conservative republicans interferring on the side of the Miami relatives. Both sides on this one have bloody noses as far as I am concerned. Larry Ball lball@inetnebr.com "." wrote: > Elian acquired protection under U.S. law and the U.S. Constitution the > moment he entered our country -- but then, so did his father. Paternity > alone is enough for custody unless there is a divorce in progress. Elian > should have been returned to his father within three days of arrival, but > instead, the waffling of the Clinton Buffobn Squad handling the case > eventually made it necessary to do the Waco-Thang. > > -----Original Message----- > From: larry ball > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Cc: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > > Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:11 PM > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > >Garbage!!! > > > >When you going to get it straight? Elian is belongs to and with his > father. You > >are acting just like Janet Reno did when she sent Federal Agents into Waco > because > >of child abuse. All of you who oppose Elian be reunited with his father > and > >returning to Cuba with him have bought into "it takes a village to raise a > child!" > > > >The Federal raid to free, yes free, Elian from a de facto kidnapping > situation was > >legal and proper. They should have done it three months earlier. > > > >Larry Ball > >lball@inetnebr.com > > > >Bill Vance wrote: > > > >> On Apr 29, shezza@aol.com wrote: > >> > >> [-------------------- text of forwarded message > follows --------------------] > >> > >> Clinton supporter Alan Dershowitz, Harvard Law School: "The > administration > >> acted lawlessly...it's a dangerous day for all Americans." > >> > >> Joseph Sobran: "When the Soviet Empire crumbled, it appeared that even > >> liberals finally realized that Reagan's view of Communism was shared by > >> everyone who had lived under Communism. It shouldn't have taken the > >> destruction of the Wall to prove that; the Wall itself was sufficient > >> testimony. Communism is a system that has to lock people in, threatening > them > >> with death if they try to escape from its 'utopia'." > >> > >> Joe Schembrie: "Liberalism has always had a dark psychosis whereby guilt > >> drives evil and evil drives guilt -- a morality of sadism which aborts > >> innocent babies but spares murderers from execution, which frees violent > >> criminals but disarms law-abiding citizens, which bombs a peaceful > democratic > >> nation on the other side of the world but dutifully returns runaway > >> child-slaves to the terrorist despotism in our own backyard." > >> > >> William Murchison: "A great nation, to be great, is required to do great > >> things, not small, grubby things such as breaking down the doors of > private > >> homes and snatching up six year olds at the point of a gun. Americans are > >> collectively diminished by the Holy Saturday Raid. So is our president -- > but > >> by this time, that won't astound very many Americans." > >> > >> Tod Lindberg: "If you were looking for a way to galvanize conservative > >> opinion in this country...you wouldn't even dare hope that the incumbent > >> Democratic administration would be so stupid as to send in machine > gun-toting > >> federal agents to snatch a six-year-old shipwreck survivor in order to > send > >> him back to Cuba." > >> > >> Rep. Ron Paul: "The rule of law and the Constitution have been completely > >> ignored and a police-state mentality dictated the actions by the > >> Administration and carried out by Janet Reno. ... Custody cases are > properly > >> handled in a family court, with contesting sides present. After hearing > the > >> case a judge rules with the loser having the right to appeal." > >> > >> Roger Pilon: "The Justice Department's night raid on the Miami home of > Elian > >> Gonzalez was an unconscionable exercise of police power, made all the > >> worse by its exercise at the very moment a settlement was being > >> reached. ... This is a shameful episode in this nation's history." > >> > >> Gary Aldrich: "What happened Saturday is very symbolic of what always > >> happens when ultimate power is corrupted. It's also what happens when > good > >> men do nothing." > >> > >> Sister Jeanne O'Laughlin, the university president who was selected as > the > >> neutral party to host the meeting between Elian and his grandmothers: > "What, > >> if not for fear, could keep a person from making a 30-minute trip to > reclaim > >> his son?" > >> > >> National Review's Kate O'Beirne: "A loving father, who claims to be free > from > >> Castro's control, would have been in Florida with his son months ago. > Once he > >> finally arrived, > >> he would have walked across broken glass to see his son for an hour... > >> Elian's Miami relatives are losing in the court of public opinion, but > they > >> have passed Solomon's test with flying colors." > >> > >> Cal Thomas: "We have the photographic equivalent of the stained dress." > >> > >> Linda Bowles: "The docility and gullibility of so many Americans is a > delight > >> for > >> government overlords." > >> > >> Jacob G. Hornberger: "The raid was ... a denigration of the rule of law > and > >> an elevation of the rule of terror.... The winner in all this, of course, > is > >> Fidel Castro, who > >> has...displayed to the world that the U.S. government behaves just like > his." > >> > >> Robert Novak: "Contrary to Justice Department claims that the Florida > >> relatives defied the law, the highest federal court to hear the case last > >> Wednesday roundly rejected Attorney General Janet Reno's arguments." > >> > >> Paul M. Weyrich: "How we have let down those patriots gone before us who > >> fought for freedom in countless wars." > >> > >> Rep. Ron Paul: "It is one thing to be a coward with one's own life, but > it > >> is entirely immoral to run in fear when it comes to defending the > >> constitutional rights we are sworn to uphold." > >> > >> Don Feder: "Clinton has finally convinced me of the case for > >> gun control to this extent: While he and Reno are in charge, no > >> federal agent should be allowed to carry firearms." > >> > >> White House spokesman Joe Lockhart, condemning Republicans who have been > >> critical of the commando raid in Little Havana: "In Washington...you > make a > >> judgement and then you try to get the information." > >> > >> Rich Galen: "The raid on the two-bedroom house was almost worth it if > only > >> to > >> watch Jesse Jackson, on Tony Snow's Sunday show, defending an armed > >> pre-dawn raid by the U.S. government on a minority household." > >> > >> Paul Craig Roberts: "The solution to the Elian problem is to trade > Castro the > >> Democratic Party, Janet Reno and the liberal media for Elian. We could go > >> even further and trade Castro all our Northeastern and West Coast > liberals > >> for the Cuban population. That way, everyone would be happy." > >> > >> Jay Leno: "Did you watch the Annual White House Easter Egg Roll? > Hundreds of > >> children rolling eggs along the lawn with spoons. Nice to see the > government > >> is doing something for children other than psychologically scarring them > for > >> life. Castro is getting mad now. He says that if Elian doesn't come back > to > >> Cuba soon, he will lose his job at the Nike factory." > >> > >> David Letterman: "Elian Gonzalez in now with his father in the > Washington, > >> D.C., area and I'm thinking what a year this kid has had. When he gets > back > >> to Cuba he's going to be behind. He will have missed a lot. For example, > he > >> will have missed an entire semester of Commie brainwashing. He'll have to > >> make that up somehow." > >> > >> Blaise Pascal: "Justice without strength is helpless, strength without > >> justice is tyrannical.... Unable to make what is just strong, we have > made > >> what is strong just." > >> > >> John Locke: "Tyranny is the exercise of power beyond right...when the > >> governor...makes not the law, but his will, the rule." > >> > >> [------------------------- end of forwarded > message ------------------------] > >> > >> -- > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > >> RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** > RKBA! > >> ----------------+----------+--------------------------+------------------ > --- > >> An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath > no > >> weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > >> hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a > >> on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus > Christ > >> ----------------+----------+--------------------------+------------------ > --- > >> > >> - > > > > > >- > > > > - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jack Perrine Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 29 Apr 2000 18:18:35 -0700 On Saturday, April 29, 2000 6:05 PM, larry ball [SMTP:lball@inetnebr.com] wrote: > sabitago, > > I can agree with what you say mostly. But it wasn't just the Clintonista's > baffoon squad at work here. In a great part it was those conservative > republicans interferring on the side of the Miami relatives. Both sides on this > one have bloody noses as far as I am concerned. Since I put a great deal more credibility in Vin that any of the posts on this subject this afternoon on ROC, I thought I should copy this delightful paragraphs from Vin's delightful treatise on the Miami Fiasco V But this was all about getting little Elian some "quiet time with his V father," wasn't it? Even though, according to The New York Times, Juan V Miguel Gonzalez divorced Elian's mom in May of 1991, and Elian was born on V Dec. 6, 1993. Do the math. This father -- if any DNA test would even V confirm he is the father -- has no automatic parental rights in any V American court. So it seems that there is no proof the Father is the Father and he certainly as Vin points out would zilch rights in any American Court Jack > > Larry Ball > lball@inetnebr.com > > "." wrote: > > > Elian acquired protection under U.S. law and the U.S. Constitution the > > moment he entered our country -- but then, so did his father. Paternity > > alone is enough for custody unless there is a divorce in progress. Elian > > should have been returned to his father within three days of arrival, but > > instead, the waffling of the Clinton Buffobn Squad handling the case > > eventually made it necessary to do the Waco-Thang. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: larry ball > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > Cc: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > > > > Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:11 PM > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > >Garbage!!! > > > > > >When you going to get it straight? Elian is belongs to and with his > > father. You > > >are acting just like Janet Reno did when she sent Federal Agents into Waco > > because > > >of child abuse. All of you who oppose Elian be reunited with his father > > and > > >returning to Cuba with him have bought into "it takes a village to raise a > > child!" > > > > > >The Federal raid to free, yes free, Elian from a de facto kidnapping > > situation was > > >legal and proper. They should have done it three months earlier. > > > > > >Larry Ball > > >lball@inetnebr.com > > > > > >Bill Vance wrote: > > > > > >> On Apr 29, shezza@aol.com wrote: > > >> > > >> [-------------------- text of forwarded message > > follows --------------------] > > >> > > >> Clinton supporter Alan Dershowitz, Harvard Law School: "The > > administration > > >> acted lawlessly...it's a dangerous day for all Americans." > > >> > > >> Joseph Sobran: "When the Soviet Empire crumbled, it appeared that even > > >> liberals finally realized that Reagan's view of Communism was shared by > > >> everyone who had lived under Communism. It shouldn't have taken the > > >> destruction of the Wall to prove that; the Wall itself was sufficient > > >> testimony. Communism is a system that has to lock people in, threatening > > them > > >> with death if they try to escape from its 'utopia'." > > >> > > >> Joe Schembrie: "Liberalism has always had a dark psychosis whereby guilt > > >> drives evil and evil drives guilt -- a morality of sadism which aborts > > >> innocent babies but spares murderers from execution, which frees violent > > >> criminals but disarms law-abiding citizens, which bombs a peaceful > > democratic > > >> nation on the other side of the world but dutifully returns runaway > > >> child-slaves to the terrorist despotism in our own backyard." > > >> > > >> William Murchison: "A great nation, to be great, is required to do great > > >> things, not small, grubby things such as breaking down the doors of > > private > > >> homes and snatching up six year olds at the point of a gun. Americans are > > >> collectively diminished by the Holy Saturday Raid. So is our president -- > > but > > >> by this time, that won't astound very many Americans." > > >> > > >> Tod Lindberg: "If you were looking for a way to galvanize conservative > > >> opinion in this country...you wouldn't even dare hope that the incumbent > > >> Democratic administration would be so stupid as to send in machine > > gun-toting > > >> federal agents to snatch a six-year-old shipwreck survivor in order to > > send > > >> him back to Cuba." > > >> > > >> Rep. Ron Paul: "The rule of law and the Constitution have been completely > > >> ignored and a police-state mentality dictated the actions by the > > >> Administration and carried out by Janet Reno. ... Custody cases are > > properly > > >> handled in a family court, with contesting sides present. After hearing > > the > > >> case a judge rules with the loser having the right to appeal." > > >> > > >> Roger Pilon: "The Justice Department's night raid on the Miami home of > > Elian > > >> Gonzalez was an unconscionable exercise of police power, made all the > > >> worse by its exercise at the very moment a settlement was being > > >> reached. ... This is a shameful episode in this nation's history." > > >> > > >> Gary Aldrich: "What happened Saturday is very symbolic of what always > > >> happens when ultimate power is corrupted. It's also what happens when > > good > > >> men do nothing." > > >> > > >> Sister Jeanne O'Laughlin, the university president who was selected as > > the > > >> neutral party to host the meeting between Elian and his grandmothers: > > "What, > > >> if not for fear, could keep a person from making a 30-minute trip to > > reclaim > > >> his son?" > > >> > > >> National Review's Kate O'Beirne: "A loving father, who claims to be free > > from > > >> Castro's control, would have been in Florida with his son months ago. > > Once he > > >> finally arrived, > > >> he would have walked across broken glass to see his son for an hour... > > >> Elian's Miami relatives are losing in the court of public opinion, but > > they > > >> have passed Solomon's test with flying colors." > > >> > > >> Cal Thomas: "We have the photographic equivalent of the stained dress." > > >> > > >> Linda Bowles: "The docility and gullibility of so many Americans is a > > delight > > >> for > > >> government overlords." > > >> > > >> Jacob G. Hornberger: "The raid was ... a denigration of the rule of law > > and > > >> an elevation of the rule of terror.... The winner in all this, of course, > > is > > >> Fidel Castro, who > > >> has...displayed to the world that the U.S. government behaves just like > > his." > > >> > > >> Robert Novak: "Contrary to Justice Department claims that the Florida > > >> relatives defied the law, the highest federal court to hear the case last > > >> Wednesday roundly rejected Attorney General Janet Reno's arguments." > > >> > > >> Paul M. Weyrich: "How we have let down those patriots gone before us who > > >> fought for freedom in countless wars." > > >> > > >> Rep. Ron Paul: "It is one thing to be a coward with one's own life, but > > it > > >> is entirely immoral to run in fear when it comes to defending the > > >> constitutional rights we are sworn to uphold." > > >> > > >> Don Feder: "Clinton has finally convinced me of the case for > > >> gun control to this extent: While he and Reno are in charge, no > > >> federal agent should be allowed to carry firearms." > > >> > > >> White House spokesman Joe Lockhart, condemning Republicans who have been > > >> critical of the commando raid in Little Havana: "In Washington...you > > make a > > >> judgement and then you try to get the information." > > >> > > >> Rich Galen: "The raid on the two-bedroom house was almost worth it if > > only > > >> to > > >> watch Jesse Jackson, on Tony Snow's Sunday show, defending an armed > > >> pre-dawn raid by the U.S. government on a minority household." > > >> > > >> Paul Craig Roberts: "The solution to the Elian problem is to trade > > Castro the > > >> Democratic Party, Janet Reno and the liberal media for Elian. We could go > > >> even further and trade Castro all our Northeastern and West Coast > > liberals > > >> for the Cuban population. That way, everyone would be happy." > > >> > > >> Jay Leno: "Did you watch the Annual White House Easter Egg Roll? > > Hundreds of > > >> children rolling eggs along the lawn with spoons. Nice to see the > > government > > >> is doing something for children other than psychologically scarring them > > for > > >> life. Castro is getting mad now. He says that if Elian doesn't come back > > to > > >> Cuba soon, he will lose his job at the Nike factory." > > >> > > >> David Letterman: "Elian Gonzalez in now with his father in the > > Washington, > > >> D.C., area and I'm thinking what a year this kid has had. When he gets > > back > > >> to Cuba he's going to be behind. He will have missed a lot. For example, > > he > > >> will have missed an entire semester of Commie brainwashing. He'll have to > > >> make that up somehow." > > >> > > >> Blaise Pascal: "Justice without strength is helpless, strength without > > >> justice is tyrannical.... Unable to make what is just strong, we have > > made > > >> what is strong just." > > >> > > >> John Locke: "Tyranny is the exercise of power beyond right...when the > > >> governor...makes not the law, but his will, the rule." > > >> > > >> [------------------------- end of forwarded > > message ------------------------] > > >> > > >> -- > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --- > > >> RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** > > RKBA! > > >> ----------------+----------+--------------------------+------------------ > > --- > > >> An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath > > no > > >> weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > > >> hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a > > >> on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus > > Christ > > >> ----------------+----------+--------------------------+------------------ > > --- > > >> > > >> - > > > > > > > > >- > > > > > > > - > > > - Jack Perrine | Athena Programming | 626-798-6574 _________________| 1175 N Altadena Dr | ____________ Jack@Minerva.com | Pasadena CA 91107 | FAX-398-8620 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: larry ball Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 29 Apr 2000 20:20:02 -0500 There is, however, a FATHER! A father with whom Elian belongs. And he belongs with the father where ever the father determines to live. Elian applied for asylum, my as--um! Elian is six years old. He has NO capabilty to make an informed decision about such things. How would you react if your wife, lover, mistress, one-night-stand, whatever, took your boy and tried to swim to Cuba? Would you be in favor of the Cuban courts making similar rulings and the Cuban politicians bahaving like ours have in this case? Would you be satisfied with such criminal behavior? or would you be ready to send in the marines to rescue your son? Tell me Mr. "Landers" what would you do? Should the whole nation of Cuba be allowed to second guess your ability to be a proper father? Hmmmmn? Larry Ball lball@inetnebr.com Larry Ball lball@inetnebr.com Lew Glendenning wrote: > There was never a marriage. > > Lew > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . > > Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:49 PM > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > Elian acquired protection under U.S. law and the U.S. Constitution the > > moment he entered our country -- but then, so did his father. Paternity > > alone is enough for custody unless there is a divorce in progress. Elian > > should have been returned to his father within three days of arrival, but > > instead, the waffling of the Clinton Buffobn Squad handling the case > > eventually made it necessary to do the Waco-Thang. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: larry ball > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > Cc: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > > > > Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:11 PM > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken Mitchell" Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 29 Apr 2000 18:29:16 -0700 > -----Original Message----- > Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 6:20 PM > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > There is, however, a FATHER! A father with whom Elian belongs. > And he belongs > with the father where ever the father determines to live. > > Elian applied for asylum, my as--um! Elian is six years old. He has NO > capabilty to make an informed decision about such things. How > would you react > if your wife, lover, mistress, one-night-stand, whatever, took > your boy and > tried to swim to Cuba? Would you be in favor of the Cuban courts making > similar rulings and the Cuban politicians bahaving like ours have in this > case? Would you be satisfied with such criminal behavior? or > would you be > ready to send in the marines to rescue your son? Tell me Mr. > "Landers" what > would you do? Should the whole nation of Cuba be allowed to > second guess your > ability to be a proper father? Hmmmmn? > > Larry Ball One essential consideration here is that the Federal government has NEVER BEFORE interfered in an international custody dispute. There are hundreds of incidents where foreign-born parents (usually men) have left the country with their kids, in violation of a custody order, and the U.S. has refused even to protest to the foreign government involved. Why is Slick Willie so eager to change positions here? Ken Mitchell Citrus Heights, CA kmitchel@gvn.net 916-955-9152 (voicemail) http://www.gvn.net/~creative/ "In general the art of government consists in taking as much money as possible from one class of citizens to give to the other." Voltaire - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 29 Apr 2000 21:18:17 -0400 Lots of kids have Fathers to whom they should not be sent or returned. His mother had custody and she wanted him in the US. It should have gone to a family court to see if the father really did have the parental rights and is a fit father. Both sides may be in the wrong but the raid was wrong. It was police state in action. Those men in the raid had machine guns. I assume they had bullets. That means they were ready to kill. Was it worth the risk of someone's life to take Elian from people who were not abusing him -- he was in no danger -- so was it right, regardless of who should have custody, to use lethal force to retrieve him? Unless the kid was with people causing him harm and doing bad things to him, there was NO case for force being used that could have been lethal. And I am sure he will have some emotional scarring from this issue too. It comes down to this. Clinton and Reno have only one solution to problems -- send in hack booted thugs and ninja wannabes. Reno was having a pouting fit. Chad --On Saturday, April 29, 2000 8:20 PM -0500 larry ball wrote: > There is, however, a FATHER! A father with whom Elian belongs. And he > belongs with the father where ever the father determines to live. > > Elian applied for asylum, my as--um! Elian is six years old. He has NO > capabilty to make an informed decision about such things. How would you > react if your wife, lover, mistress, one-night-stand, whatever, took your > boy and tried to swim to Cuba? Would you be in favor of the Cuban > courts making similar rulings and the Cuban politicians bahaving like > ours have in this case? Would you be satisfied with such criminal > behavior? or would you be ready to send in the marines to rescue your > son? Tell me Mr. "Landers" what would you do? Should the whole nation > of Cuba be allowed to second guess your ability to be a proper father? > Hmmmmn? > > Larry Ball > lball@inetnebr.com > > Larry Ball > lball@inetnebr.com > > Lew Glendenning wrote: > >> There was never a marriage. >> >> Lew >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >> > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . >> > Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:49 PM >> > To: roc@lists.xmission.com >> > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) >> > >> > >> > Elian acquired protection under U.S. law and the U.S. Constitution the >> > moment he entered our country -- but then, so did his father. Paternity >> > alone is enough for custody unless there is a divorce in progress. >> > Elian should have been returned to his father within three days of >> > arrival, but instead, the waffling of the Clinton Buffobn Squad >> > handling the case eventually made it necessary to do the Waco-Thang. >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: larry ball >> > To: roc@lists.xmission.com >> > Cc: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com >> > >> > Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:11 PM >> > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) >> > >> > >> >> - > > > - > Pengar Enterprises, Inc. and Shire.Net LLC Web and Macintosh Consulting -- full service web hosting Chad Leigh chad@pengar.com chad@shire.net - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 29 Apr 2000 18:51:35 -0700 I certainly agree that there is a difference between Cuba and the US. In the US, the probable-father has a chance to come and go, perhaps influence the upbringing of the kid, perhaps to stay. In the US, there is some hope of justice, some hope that the father can regain the kid through normal legal processes, some hope that someone will take the kid's long-term best interest to heart. In Cuba, I might be able to see the child, but if I exercised any influence on his thinking, the kid would be taken away from me. In Cuba, there are no parental rights if the state determines that you are not bringing the kid up to be a proper socialist. Beyond the simple issue of FREEDOM, the living conditions in Cuba are so dismal that merely returning the kid to Cuba is child endangerment. A recent article on this topic by a Miami reporter (Puerto Rican) who had visited Cuba many times stated that most of the women she knew, including MDs, ... had had to resort to prostitution at some point to feed their families. BTW: I was srong in stating there was no marriage. The mother was not married to this man at the time of conception. Sorry for my bad memory. In normal circumstances, I agree that even biological fatherhood trumpts a state interest. However, it is a terribly flawed father who wants to take a kid back to Cuba, so unlikely, given all of the people dying while trying to leave Cuba, that I judge this to be a political agenda, not a 'welfare of the child' agenda. This is especially true for our great leaders in our truely astonishing federal gov administration. Anything Clinton/Reno are for, you ought to think about very carefully before accepting. Lew > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 6:20 PM > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > There is, however, a FATHER! A father with whom Elian belongs. > And he belongs > with the father where ever the father determines to live. > > Elian applied for asylum, my as--um! Elian is six years old. He has NO > capabilty to make an informed decision about such things. How > would you react > if your wife, lover, mistress, one-night-stand, whatever, took > your boy and > tried to swim to Cuba? Would you be in favor of the Cuban courts making > similar rulings and the Cuban politicians bahaving like ours have in this > case? Would you be satisfied with such criminal behavior? or > would you be > ready to send in the marines to rescue your son? Tell me Mr. > "Landers" what > would you do? Should the whole nation of Cuba be allowed to > second guess your > ability to be a proper father? Hmmmmn? > > Larry Ball > lball@inetnebr.com > > Larry Ball > lball@inetnebr.com > > Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > There was never a marriage. > > > > Lew > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . > > > Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:49 PM > > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > > > > Elian acquired protection under U.S. law and the U.S. Constitution the > > > moment he entered our country -- but then, so did his father. > Paternity > > > alone is enough for custody unless there is a divorce in > progress. Elian > > > should have been returned to his father within three days of > arrival, but > > > instead, the waffling of the Clinton Buffobn Squad handling the case > > > eventually made it necessary to do the Waco-Thang. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: larry ball > > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > Cc: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > > > > > > Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:11 PM > > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > > > > > - > > > - > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 29 Apr 2000 20:12:31 PST On Apr 29, . wrote: >Elian acquired protection under U.S. law and the U.S. Constitution the >moment he entered our country -- but then, so did his father. Paternity >alone is enough for custody unless there is a divorce in progress. Elian >should have been returned to his father within three days of arrival, but >instead, the waffling of the Clinton Buffobn Squad handling the case >eventually made it necessary to do the Waco-Thang. > >-----Original Message----- >From: larry ball >To: roc@lists.xmission.com >Cc: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > >Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:11 PM >Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > >>Garbage!!! >> >>When you going to get it straight? Elian is belongs to and with his >father. You >>are acting just like Janet Reno did when she sent Federal Agents into Waco >because >>of child abuse. All of you who oppose Elian be reunited with his father >and >>returning to Cuba with him have bought into "it takes a village to raise a >child!" >> >>The Federal raid to free, yes free, Elian from a de facto kidnapping >situation was >>legal and proper. No it isnt. If I recall the numbers, the cost is allready well over 80 grand, and rising. Elian _was_ being taken care of for, "free", but _now_ it's us Tax Payers that are footing the bill for _all_ of it, including the Hotel bills for him, his old man, the Secret Service et al, the Cuban contingent, the Lawyers, and ad nauseum. Just Fracking Wonderful! -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "." Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 29 Apr 2000 21:06:34 -0700 Marriage is not what makes paternity. He was involved with the boy as his father (unless you believe all the bilge from the "family"). -----Original Message----- > >There was never a marriage. > >Lew > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . >> Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:49 PM >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) >> >> >> Elian acquired protection under U.S. law and the U.S. Constitution the >> moment he entered our country -- but then, so did his father. Paternity >> alone is enough for custody unless there is a divorce in progress. Elian >> should have been returned to his father within three days of arrival, but >> instead, the waffling of the Clinton Buffobn Squad handling the case >> eventually made it necessary to do the Waco-Thang. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: larry ball >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com >> Cc: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com >> >> Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:11 PM >> Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) >> >> > > >- > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "." Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 29 Apr 2000 21:07:46 -0700 The kid did not apply for asylum. Some shirt-tail relationd did for him, but the boy had a FATHER who did not. A 6-year-old cannot make legal decisions. -----Original Message----- > >The kid had applied for asylum. He was therefore not in the country >illegally. > >A federal court said so, in a scathing judgement favoring the US >family/Elian >and overruling the Justice Dept. > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . >> Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:51 PM >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) >> >> >> There never was a child's legal custody situation involved. Everyone knew >> who and where the father was. The boy was in the country illegally and >> should have been returned to his father under that auspecies from the >> beginning. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Lew Glendenning >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com >> Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:27 PM >> Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) >> >> >> > >> >The problem of child custody is a state problem, not a federal problem. >> > >> >In any case, I think we should be very careful in advocating the use of >> >any of the 70+/86,000 federal police to use no-knock warrants for any >> reason >> >whatsoever. >> > >> >The mere existence of these forces is unConstitutional, IMHO. No-knock >> >warrants >> >are both stupid and unConstitutional, and I don't care what the Supremes >> say >> >about >> >it. >> > >> >All of these stupidities are desensitizing both the public and >> the fedgoons >> >to >> >this sort of 'solutions'. One step at a time, we have ended in a police >> >state, >> >where gov power has few limits. It continues from here. >> > >> >BTW: The parents were never married, and the Father showed no interest >> >in the kid until Castro got involved. >> > >> >Freedom is the only measure we should accept wrt gov actions. In this >> case, >> >our gov is sending a kid back to un-freedom, hunger and a real high child >> >mortality rate. Based upon his mother's actions, this is the kind of >> person >> >we should be >> >keeping. Keep the father here if it is so important to unit father and >> son. >> > >> >Lew > > >- > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "." Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 29 Apr 2000 21:08:51 -0700 You sure got that right. The "family values" crowd suddenly became the "state knows best" crowd. -----Original Message----- >sabitago, > >I can agree with what you say mostly. But it wasn't just the Clintonista's >baffoon squad at work here. In a great part it was those conservative >republicans interferring on the side of the Miami relatives. Both sides on this >one have bloody noses as far as I am concerned. > >Larry Ball >lball@inetnebr.com > >"." wrote: > >> Elian acquired protection under U.S. law and the U.S. Constitution the >> moment he entered our country -- but then, so did his father. Paternity >> alone is enough for custody unless there is a divorce in progress. Elian >> should have been returned to his father within three days of arrival, but >> instead, the waffling of the Clinton Buffobn Squad handling the case >> eventually made it necessary to do the Waco-Thang. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: larry ball >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com >> Cc: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com >> >> Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:11 PM >> Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) >> >> >Garbage!!! >> > >> >When you going to get it straight? Elian is belongs to and with his >> father. You >> >are acting just like Janet Reno did when she sent Federal Agents into Waco >> because >> >of child abuse. All of you who oppose Elian be reunited with his father >> and >> >returning to Cuba with him have bought into "it takes a village to raise a >> child!" >> > >> >The Federal raid to free, yes free, Elian from a de facto kidnapping >> situation was >> >legal and proper. They should have done it three months earlier. >> > >> >Larry Ball >> >lball@inetnebr.com >> > >> >Bill Vance wrote: >> > >> >> On Apr 29, shezza@aol.com wrote: >> >> >> >> [-------------------- text of forwarded message >> follows --------------------] >> >> >> >> Clinton supporter Alan Dershowitz, Harvard Law School: "The >> administration >> >> acted lawlessly...it's a dangerous day for all Americans." >> >> >> >> Joseph Sobran: "When the Soviet Empire crumbled, it appeared that even >> >> liberals finally realized that Reagan's view of Communism was shared by >> >> everyone who had lived under Communism. It shouldn't have taken the >> >> destruction of the Wall to prove that; the Wall itself was sufficient >> >> testimony. Communism is a system that has to lock people in, threatening >> them >> >> with death if they try to escape from its 'utopia'." >> >> >> >> Joe Schembrie: "Liberalism has always had a dark psychosis whereby guilt >> >> drives evil and evil drives guilt -- a morality of sadism which aborts >> >> innocent babies but spares murderers from execution, which frees violent >> >> criminals but disarms law-abiding citizens, which bombs a peaceful >> democratic >> >> nation on the other side of the world but dutifully returns runaway >> >> child-slaves to the terrorist despotism in our own backyard." >> >> >> >> William Murchison: "A great nation, to be great, is required to do great >> >> things, not small, grubby things such as breaking down the doors of >> private >> >> homes and snatching up six year olds at the point of a gun. Americans are >> >> collectively diminished by the Holy Saturday Raid. So is our president -- >> but >> >> by this time, that won't astound very many Americans." >> >> >> >> Tod Lindberg: "If you were looking for a way to galvanize conservative >> >> opinion in this country...you wouldn't even dare hope that the incumbent >> >> Democratic administration would be so stupid as to send in machine >> gun-toting >> >> federal agents to snatch a six-year-old shipwreck survivor in order to >> send >> >> him back to Cuba." >> >> >> >> Rep. Ron Paul: "The rule of law and the Constitution have been completely >> >> ignored and a police-state mentality dictated the actions by the >> >> Administration and carried out by Janet Reno. ... Custody cases are >> properly >> >> handled in a family court, with contesting sides present. After hearing >> the >> >> case a judge rules with the loser having the right to appeal." >> >> >> >> Roger Pilon: "The Justice Department's night raid on the Miami home of >> Elian >> >> Gonzalez was an unconscionable exercise of police power, made all the >> >> worse by its exercise at the very moment a settlement was being >> >> reached. ... This is a shameful episode in this nation's history." >> >> >> >> Gary Aldrich: "What happened Saturday is very symbolic of what always >> >> happens when ultimate power is corrupted. It's also what happens when >> good >> >> men do nothing." >> >> >> >> Sister Jeanne O'Laughlin, the university president who was selected as >> the >> >> neutral party to host the meeting between Elian and his grandmothers: >> "What, >> >> if not for fear, could keep a person from making a 30-minute trip to >> reclaim >> >> his son?" >> >> >> >> National Review's Kate O'Beirne: "A loving father, who claims to be free >> from >> >> Castro's control, would have been in Florida with his son months ago. >> Once he >> >> finally arrived, >> >> he would have walked across broken glass to see his son for an hour... >> >> Elian's Miami relatives are losing in the court of public opinion, but >> they >> >> have passed Solomon's test with flying colors." >> >> >> >> Cal Thomas: "We have the photographic equivalent of the stained dress." >> >> >> >> Linda Bowles: "The docility and gullibility of so many Americans is a >> delight >> >> for >> >> government overlords." >> >> >> >> Jacob G. Hornberger: "The raid was ... a denigration of the rule of law >> and >> >> an elevation of the rule of terror.... The winner in all this, of course, >> is >> >> Fidel Castro, who >> >> has...displayed to the world that the U.S. government behaves just like >> his." >> >> >> >> Robert Novak: "Contrary to Justice Department claims that the Florida >> >> relatives defied the law, the highest federal court to hear the case last >> >> Wednesday roundly rejected Attorney General Janet Reno's arguments." >> >> >> >> Paul M. Weyrich: "How we have let down those patriots gone before us who >> >> fought for freedom in countless wars." >> >> >> >> Rep. Ron Paul: "It is one thing to be a coward with one's own life, but >> it >> >> is entirely immoral to run in fear when it comes to defending the >> >> constitutional rights we are sworn to uphold." >> >> >> >> Don Feder: "Clinton has finally convinced me of the case for >> >> gun control to this extent: While he and Reno are in charge, no >> >> federal agent should be allowed to carry firearms." >> >> >> >> White House spokesman Joe Lockhart, condemning Republicans who have been >> >> critical of the commando raid in Little Havana: "In Washington...you >> make a >> >> judgement and then you try to get the information." >> >> >> >> Rich Galen: "The raid on the two-bedroom house was almost worth it if >> only >> >> to >> >> watch Jesse Jackson, on Tony Snow's Sunday show, defending an armed >> >> pre-dawn raid by the U.S. government on a minority household." >> >> >> >> Paul Craig Roberts: "The solution to the Elian problem is to trade >> Castro the >> >> Democratic Party, Janet Reno and the liberal media for Elian. We could go >> >> even further and trade Castro all our Northeastern and West Coast >> liberals >> >> for the Cuban population. That way, everyone would be happy." >> >> >> >> Jay Leno: "Did you watch the Annual White House Easter Egg Roll? >> Hundreds of >> >> children rolling eggs along the lawn with spoons. Nice to see the >> government >> >> is doing something for children other than psychologically scarring them >> for >> >> life. Castro is getting mad now. He says that if Elian doesn't come back >> to >> >> Cuba soon, he will lose his job at the Nike factory." >> >> >> >> David Letterman: "Elian Gonzalez in now with his father in the >> Washington, >> >> D.C., area and I'm thinking what a year this kid has had. When he gets >> back >> >> to Cuba he's going to be behind. He will have missed a lot. For example, >> he >> >> will have missed an entire semester of Commie brainwashing. He'll have to >> >> make that up somehow." >> >> >> >> Blaise Pascal: "Justice without strength is helpless, strength without >> >> justice is tyrannical.... Unable to make what is just strong, we have >> made >> >> what is strong just." >> >> >> >> John Locke: "Tyranny is the exercise of power beyond right...when the >> >> governor...makes not the law, but his will, the rule." >> >> >> >> [------------------------- end of forwarded >> message ------------------------] >> >> >> >> -- >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >> >> RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** >> RKBA! >> >> ----------------+----------+--------------------------+------------------ >> --- >> >> An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath >> no >> >> weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his >> >> hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a >> >> on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus >> Christ >> >> ----------------+----------+--------------------------+------------------ >> --- >> >> >> >> - >> > >> > >> >- >> > >> >> - > > >- > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 29 Apr 2000 21:31:08 -0700 Federal court most emphatically disagreed with the administration and you. Freedom is the highest priority here. Lew > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . > Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 9:08 PM > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > The kid did not apply for asylum. Some shirt-tail relationd did > for him, but > the boy had a FATHER who did not. A 6-year-old cannot make legal > decisions. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lew Glendenning > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 6:03 PM > Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > >The kid had applied for asylum. He was therefore not in the country > >illegally. > > > >A federal court said so, in a scathing judgement favoring the US > >family/Elian > >and overruling the Justice Dept. > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . > >> Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:51 PM > >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com > >> Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > >> > >> > >> There never was a child's legal custody situation involved. > Everyone knew > >> who and where the father was. The boy was in the country illegally and > >> should have been returned to his father under that auspecies from the > >> beginning. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Lew Glendenning > >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com > >> Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:27 PM > >> Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > >> > >> > >> > > >> >The problem of child custody is a state problem, not a > federal problem. > >> > > >> >In any case, I think we should be very careful in advocating > the use of > >> >any of the 70+/86,000 federal police to use no-knock warrants for any > >> reason > >> >whatsoever. > >> > > >> >The mere existence of these forces is unConstitutional, IMHO. > No-knock > >> >warrants > >> >are both stupid and unConstitutional, and I don't care what > the Supremes > >> say > >> >about > >> >it. > >> > > >> >All of these stupidities are desensitizing both the public and > >> the fedgoons > >> >to > >> >this sort of 'solutions'. One step at a time, we have ended > in a police > >> >state, > >> >where gov power has few limits. It continues from here. > >> > > >> >BTW: The parents were never married, and the Father showed > no interest > >> >in the kid until Castro got involved. > >> > > >> >Freedom is the only measure we should accept wrt gov actions. In this > >> case, > >> >our gov is sending a kid back to un-freedom, hunger and a real high > child > >> >mortality rate. Based upon his mother's actions, this is the kind of > >> person > >> >we should be > >> >keeping. Keep the father here if it is so important to unit > father and > >> son. > >> > > >> >Lew > > > > > >- > > > > > - > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "." Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 29 Apr 2000 21:38:52 -0700 (sarcasm on) Gee, then I guess I was wrong -- after all, a federal court said so and federal judges are wiser than God. (sarcasm off) Do you always agree with federal judges? -----Original Message----- > >Federal court most emphatically disagreed with the administration and you. > >Freedom is the highest priority here. > >Lew > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . >> Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 9:08 PM >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) >> >> >> The kid did not apply for asylum. Some shirt-tail relationd did >> for him, but >> the boy had a FATHER who did not. A 6-year-old cannot make legal >> decisions. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Lew Glendenning >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com >> Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 6:03 PM >> Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) >> >> >> > >> >The kid had applied for asylum. He was therefore not in the country >> >illegally. >> > >> >A federal court said so, in a scathing judgement favoring the US >> >family/Elian >> >and overruling the Justice Dept. >> > >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >> >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . >> >> Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:51 PM >> >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com >> >> Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) >> >> >> >> >> >> There never was a child's legal custody situation involved. >> Everyone knew >> >> who and where the father was. The boy was in the country illegally and >> >> should have been returned to his father under that auspecies from the >> >> beginning. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Lew Glendenning >> >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com >> >> Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:27 PM >> >> Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >The problem of child custody is a state problem, not a >> federal problem. >> >> > >> >> >In any case, I think we should be very careful in advocating >> the use of >> >> >any of the 70+/86,000 federal police to use no-knock warrants for any >> >> reason >> >> >whatsoever. >> >> > >> >> >The mere existence of these forces is unConstitutional, IMHO. >> No-knock >> >> >warrants >> >> >are both stupid and unConstitutional, and I don't care what >> the Supremes >> >> say >> >> >about >> >> >it. >> >> > >> >> >All of these stupidities are desensitizing both the public and >> >> the fedgoons >> >> >to >> >> >this sort of 'solutions'. One step at a time, we have ended >> in a police >> >> >state, >> >> >where gov power has few limits. It continues from here. >> >> > >> >> >BTW: The parents were never married, and the Father showed >> no interest >> >> >in the kid until Castro got involved. >> >> > >> >> >Freedom is the only measure we should accept wrt gov actions. In this >> >> case, >> >> >our gov is sending a kid back to un-freedom, hunger and a real high >> child >> >> >mortality rate. Based upon his mother's actions, this is the kind of >> >> person >> >> >we should be >> >> >keeping. Keep the father here if it is so important to unit >> father and >> >> son. >> >> > >> >> >Lew >> > >> > >> >- >> > >> >> >> - >> > > >- > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 29 Apr 2000 22:53:19 -0700 Only when the side with freedom. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . > Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 9:39 PM > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > (sarcasm on) Gee, then I guess I was wrong -- after all, a federal court > said so and federal judges are wiser than God. (sarcasm off) > > Do you always agree with federal judges? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lew Glendenning > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 9:21 PM > Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > >Federal court most emphatically disagreed with the > administration and you. > > > >Freedom is the highest priority here. > > > >Lew > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . > >> Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 9:08 PM > >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com > >> Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > >> > >> > >> The kid did not apply for asylum. Some shirt-tail relationd did > >> for him, but > >> the boy had a FATHER who did not. A 6-year-old cannot make legal > >> decisions. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Lew Glendenning > >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com > >> Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 6:03 PM > >> Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > >> > >> > >> > > >> >The kid had applied for asylum. He was therefore not in the country > >> >illegally. > >> > > >> >A federal court said so, in a scathing judgement favoring the US > >> >family/Elian > >> >and overruling the Justice Dept. > >> > > >> > > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > >> >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . > >> >> Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:51 PM > >> >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com > >> >> Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> There never was a child's legal custody situation involved. > >> Everyone knew > >> >> who and where the father was. The boy was in the country > illegally and > >> >> should have been returned to his father under that > auspecies from the > >> >> beginning. > >> >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: Lew Glendenning > >> >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com > >> >> Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:27 PM > >> >> Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> >The problem of child custody is a state problem, not a > >> federal problem. > >> >> > > >> >> >In any case, I think we should be very careful in advocating > >> the use of > >> >> >any of the 70+/86,000 federal police to use no-knock > warrants for any > >> >> reason > >> >> >whatsoever. > >> >> > > >> >> >The mere existence of these forces is unConstitutional, IMHO. > >> No-knock > >> >> >warrants > >> >> >are both stupid and unConstitutional, and I don't care what > >> the Supremes > >> >> say > >> >> >about > >> >> >it. > >> >> > > >> >> >All of these stupidities are desensitizing both the public and > >> >> the fedgoons > >> >> >to > >> >> >this sort of 'solutions'. One step at a time, we have ended > >> in a police > >> >> >state, > >> >> >where gov power has few limits. It continues from here. > >> >> > > >> >> >BTW: The parents were never married, and the Father showed > >> no interest > >> >> >in the kid until Castro got involved. > >> >> > > >> >> >Freedom is the only measure we should accept wrt gov actions. In > this > >> >> case, > >> >> >our gov is sending a kid back to un-freedom, hunger and a real high > >> child > >> >> >mortality rate. Based upon his mother's actions, this is > the kind of > >> >> person > >> >> >we should be > >> >> >keeping. Keep the father here if it is so important to unit > >> father and > >> >> son. > >> >> > > >> >> >Lew > >> > > >> > > >> >- > >> > > >> > >> > >> - > >> > > > > > >- > > > > > - > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: Good summary of the law re: illigimate fathers Date: 29 Apr 2000 23:10:13 -0700 http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/coulter1.asp - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [newsucanuse] VIN -- Miami raid (fwd) Date: 29 Apr 2000 23:23:34 PST On Apr 30, SlickEditor@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] From: Vin_Suprynowicz@lvrj.com (Vin Suprynowicz) FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz "A show of force ... to show we were in control" And so the Clinton administration, which began its term using tanks to knock down the walls and staircases of a plywood church in Texas, spraying in flammable nerve agent while holding firefighting equipment miles away, the better to incinerate scores of innocent women and children already choking on their own vomit, has decided to go out in similar style, staging a violent and unnecessary pre-dawn raid by a massed force of bounding overweight paramilitary goons armed with German submachine guns, in order to "show who's boss" in the matter of a 6-year-old Cuban refugee. This is the administration which wants to take all defensive arms away from us law-abiding peasants, mind you, since "guns never solve anything." Yet when faced with even a momentary frustration in the courts (no, Elian's Florida relatives had not violated any court order to turn over the kid. In fact, it was Attorney General Janet Reno who went to court a few days before her daredevil raid, seeking a custody order, and was specifically turned down), the Clintons revert to the old ways -- MP-5 machine guns in the dawn. Unless Lon Horiuchi is available, of course. Ms. Reno then went on TV, telling us the wonderful thing about TV is that we can all see the kid was never in danger -- the gunman's finger was indexed along the receiver, not actually inside the trigger guard. Hey, good one. Actually, we couldn't see what happened inside the house on TV, Ms. Reno, because your goons slammed the pool cameraman, NBC's Tony Zumbado, in the forehead with their gun butts and stomped him so badly he had to be hospitalized (this according to NewsMax.com -- NBC itself having become such a government courtesan in its electronic dotage that the network never bothered to report this, to the best of my knowledge.) Ms. Reno said her agents had to use force because the Cuban-Americans outside the house resisted the raid, "throwing ropes" around her agents. This bizarre statement led to a correction from the Justice Department a few hours later -- no ropes, it turns out; the agents merely kept tripping over Mr. Zumbado's trailing video cables after they beat him to the ground. But as for the notion that AP photographer Alan Diaz's still photo demonstrates that the kid was never in danger, take another look at the photo. Then ask anyone who's ever fired a subgun how they jump around if you discharge them, full auto, without the stock firmly tucked into your shoulder. A friend called me after the raid to point out that, in his younger days, his ex-wife refused to obey a court order and allow him to see his kids. When he asked the court to enforce its own order, the court told him he was out of luck. "Why didn't they send 100 guys with German submachine guns to break down her door in the middle of the night and bring me my kids?" he asked. "At least I had a court order." (Though Reno's second in command at Justice initially insisted they had no arrest or custody order because "We didn't need one," the story changed within a few days. We're now informed that instead of going to Federal District Judge Michael Moore -- who was familiar with the case -- Reno's goons waited till after 7 p.m. Good Friday evening to obtain a "search warrant" from a low-ranking rubber-stamp magistrate, based on an absurdly perjured affidavit that young Elian was an "illegal alien" being "concealed" in the house.) For that matter, imagine how our "justice system" would respond if someone like my friend hired armed mercenaries to go enforce his court order, seizing his kids from his ex-wife at gunpoint. If he and his hired hands were arrested, do you suppose they could count on Ms. Reno to go on TV, insisting they not be charged with any crime, since "The pictures clearly show their index fingers lay alongside the receivers of their full-auto submachine guns, not inside the trigger guards"? Welcome to the rule of law in modern America -- one set of rules for us peasants, and no law at all to restrict the government goons. But this was all about getting little Elian some "quiet time with his father," wasn't it? Even though, according to The New York Times, Juan Miguel Gonzalez divorced Elian's mom in May of 1991, and Elian was born on Dec. 6, 1993. Do the math. This father -- if any DNA test would even confirm he is the father -- has no automatic parental rights in any American court. Besides which, Castro's henchmen keep referring to little Elian as the "property of the Cuban state," and have made it abundantly clear that, upon return to the slave state, little Elian will be housed in a special beachfront re-education camp, 60 miles from his father, who doesn't even own a car. "Family togetherness," Communist style. Who's really behind all this? Juan Miguel Gonzalez' attorney is Greg Craig. A friend of Bill Clinton since his days at Yale law school, Craig -- the guy who asked the national press to "please refrain" from covering the story too closely -- is the guy who helped young Bill and Hillary get their first apartment together. This thing has more Clinton fingerprints on it than the Rose Law Firm billing records. Why are we to suppose Judge J. L. Edmondson of the 11th Circuit issued a special injunction right after Ms. Reno's latest raid, warning the administration not to spirit young Elian away "to any place ... lying beyond the power and jurisdiction of the Courts of the United States, including, but not limited to, any place that is or may be entitled to diplomatic immunity"? Gee, I don't know. But let anyone dare speculate that Bill Clinton, the draft dodger who visited Moscow while organizing anti-war protests in London in the 1960s, the fellow who sold sensitive military satellite and missile technology to the Chinese Red Army over the objections of his own cabinet officers after accepting millions of dollars in illegally laundered Chinese bribes while hosting Red Chinese spies in the Lincoln bedroom, is organizing this whole affair on behalf of his communist buddy Fidel Castro, and that person would surely be dismissed as just another "black-helicopter conspiracy nut," wouldn't he? After all, it's terribly dated to pretend there's any evidence of statist leaning in the decision of The New York Times and Time and Newsweek not to run Alan Diaz's dramatic photo of the child and the G-man on their covers last week (most opting instead for the staged, government-approved "happy photo" of Elian reunited with his "dad") or in the recent declaration on national TV by Newsweek's Eleanor Clift that "to be a poor child in Cuba may in many instances be better than being a poor child in Miami." So what if Human Rights Watch reports "President" Castro has made it a crime to distribute bibles, that he "restricts such fundamental human rights as expression, association, assembly, movement, and the press," that he "imprisons or kills people for the crime of trying to leave the country" -- which is why Elian's mother died in the first place. (Though Castro did have a crucial accomplice. On the campaign trail in 1992, candidate Clinton called for an end to George Bush's "cruel and inhumane" policy of returning refugees to oppression in Haiti and Cuba. Then, once elected, Clinton promptly reversed his stance, toughening restrictions and -- contrary to international law -- fining private ship captains $3,000 for every refugee rescued and brought to an American shore. Ever heard Bill Clinton condemn the communist "evil empire"? I don't think so.) So what if Cuban parents who refuse to raise their kids as good communists can now be charged with the crime of "hindering the normal development of the child"? So what if Human Rights Watch reports Castro has so far murdered 15,000 of his political opponents? What's that, in the view of the Clintons and their media apologists, compared to the kind of "child safety" ushered in by such achievements as "modest, sensible, civilian gun control"? And if one more child has to be sacrificed in the cause of rehabilitating state socialism in the eyes of the American public, well, who's counting any more? Vin Suprynowicz is assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas Review-Journal. His book, "Send in the Waco Killers: Essays on the Freedom Movement, 1993-1998," is available by dialing 1-800-244-2224; or via web site http://www.thespiritof76.com/wacokillers.html. *** Vin Suprynowicz, vin@lvrj.com "The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it." -- John Hay, 1872 "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed -- and thus clamorous to be led to safety -- by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." -- H.L. Mencken * * * To subscribe, send a message to vinsends-request@ezlink.com, from your NEW address, including the word "subscribe" (with no quotation marks) in the "Subject" line. All I ask of electronic subscribers is that they not RE-forward my columns until on or after the embargo date which appears at the top of each, and that (should they then choose to do so) they copy the columns in their entirety, preserving the original attribution. The Vinsends list is maintained by Alan Wendt in Colorado, who may be reached directly at alan@ezlink.com. The web sites for the Suprynowicz column are at http://www.infomagic.com/liberty/vinyard.htm, and http://www.nguworld.com/vindex. The Vinyard is maintained by Michael Voth in Flagstaff, who may be reached directly at mvoth@infomagic.com. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: larry ball Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 30 Apr 2000 06:08:39 -0500 Our wonderful federal court system has ruled in favor of killing babies and repeatedly against the Second Amendment. You are attributing the doctrine of "infallibility" to it? Hmmmmn? Larry Ball lball@inetnebr.com Lew Glendenning wrote: > Federal court most emphatically disagreed with the administration and you. > > Freedom is the highest priority here. > > Lew > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . > > Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 9:08 PM > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > The kid did not apply for asylum. Some shirt-tail relationd did > > for him, but > > the boy had a FATHER who did not. A 6-year-old cannot make legal > > decisions. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Lew Glendenning > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 6:03 PM > > Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > > > > >The kid had applied for asylum. He was therefore not in the country > > >illegally. > > > > > >A federal court said so, in a scathing judgement favoring the US > > >family/Elian > > >and overruling the Justice Dept. > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . > > >> Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:51 PM > > >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > >> Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > >> > > >> > > >> There never was a child's legal custody situation involved. > > Everyone knew > > >> who and where the father was. The boy was in the country illegally and > > >> should have been returned to his father under that auspecies from the > > >> beginning. > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: Lew Glendenning > > >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > >> Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:27 PM > > >> Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > >> >The problem of child custody is a state problem, not a > > federal problem. > > >> > > > >> >In any case, I think we should be very careful in advocating > > the use of > > >> >any of the 70+/86,000 federal police to use no-knock warrants for any > > >> reason > > >> >whatsoever. > > >> > > > >> >The mere existence of these forces is unConstitutional, IMHO. > > No-knock > > >> >warrants > > >> >are both stupid and unConstitutional, and I don't care what > > the Supremes > > >> say > > >> >about > > >> >it. > > >> > > > >> >All of these stupidities are desensitizing both the public and > > >> the fedgoons > > >> >to > > >> >this sort of 'solutions'. One step at a time, we have ended > > in a police > > >> >state, > > >> >where gov power has few limits. It continues from here. > > >> > > > >> >BTW: The parents were never married, and the Father showed > > no interest > > >> >in the kid until Castro got involved. > > >> > > > >> >Freedom is the only measure we should accept wrt gov actions. In this > > >> case, > > >> >our gov is sending a kid back to un-freedom, hunger and a real high > > child > > >> >mortality rate. Based upon his mother's actions, this is the kind of > > >> person > > >> >we should be > > >> >keeping. Keep the father here if it is so important to unit > > father and > > >> son. > > >> > > > >> >Lew > > > > > > > > >- > > > > > > > > > - > > > > - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 30 Apr 2000 04:38:49 -0700 As I said, I side with the courts when they side with Freedom. Your statement is not rational argument. I have not charged any of you with agreeing with Janet Reno and her baby murders. Lew > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 4:09 AM > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > Our wonderful federal court system has ruled in favor of killing > babies and > repeatedly against the Second Amendment. You are attributing the > doctrine of > "infallibility" to it? Hmmmmn? > > Larry Ball > lball@inetnebr.com > > Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > Federal court most emphatically disagreed with the > administration and you. > > > > Freedom is the highest priority here. > > > > Lew > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . > > > Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 9:08 PM > > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > > > > The kid did not apply for asylum. Some shirt-tail relationd did > > > for him, but > > > the boy had a FATHER who did not. A 6-year-old cannot make legal > > > decisions. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Lew Glendenning > > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 6:03 PM > > > Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The kid had applied for asylum. He was therefore not in the country > > > >illegally. > > > > > > > >A federal court said so, in a scathing judgement favoring the US > > > >family/Elian > > > >and overruling the Justice Dept. > > > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > > >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . > > > >> Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:51 PM > > > >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > >> Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> There never was a child's legal custody situation involved. > > > Everyone knew > > > >> who and where the father was. The boy was in the country > illegally and > > > >> should have been returned to his father under that > auspecies from the > > > >> beginning. > > > >> > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> From: Lew Glendenning > > > >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > >> Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:27 PM > > > >> Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> >The problem of child custody is a state problem, not a > > > federal problem. > > > >> > > > > >> >In any case, I think we should be very careful in advocating > > > the use of > > > >> >any of the 70+/86,000 federal police to use no-knock > warrants for any > > > >> reason > > > >> >whatsoever. > > > >> > > > > >> >The mere existence of these forces is unConstitutional, IMHO. > > > No-knock > > > >> >warrants > > > >> >are both stupid and unConstitutional, and I don't care what > > > the Supremes > > > >> say > > > >> >about > > > >> >it. > > > >> > > > > >> >All of these stupidities are desensitizing both the public and > > > >> the fedgoons > > > >> >to > > > >> >this sort of 'solutions'. One step at a time, we have ended > > > in a police > > > >> >state, > > > >> >where gov power has few limits. It continues from here. > > > >> > > > > >> >BTW: The parents were never married, and the Father showed > > > no interest > > > >> >in the kid until Castro got involved. > > > >> > > > > >> >Freedom is the only measure we should accept wrt gov > actions. In this > > > >> case, > > > >> >our gov is sending a kid back to un-freedom, hunger and a > real high > > > child > > > >> >mortality rate. Based upon his mother's actions, this is > the kind of > > > >> person > > > >> >we should be > > > >> >keeping. Keep the father here if it is so important to unit > > > father and > > > >> son. > > > >> > > > > >> >Lew > > > > > > > > > > > >- > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > - > > > - > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: larry ball Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 30 Apr 2000 07:59:04 -0500 Lew, Rational? Define this for me. It has been my thought that it is you that lacks rationality. What is your definition of liberty? Is it for a father to chose the country of his choice in which to raise his children? Is it for the freedom of a father to raise his children in the "way that they are to go?" This is certainly a rational method of gaining an orderly society. Then, again, we might structure our society so that everything we do is "for the children." If a child wants to do this or that we let it, regardless of age or maturity. It seems that your vaunted courts have decided on this course. Larry Ball lball@inetnebr.com Lew Glendenning wrote: > As I said, I side with the courts when they side with Freedom. > > Your statement is not rational argument. I have not charged any of you with > agreeing with Janet Reno and her baby murders. > > Lew > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 4:09 AM > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > Our wonderful federal court system has ruled in favor of killing > > babies and > > repeatedly against the Second Amendment. You are attributing the > > doctrine of > > "infallibility" to it? Hmmmmn? > > > > Larry Ball > > lball@inetnebr.com > > > > Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > > > Federal court most emphatically disagreed with the > > administration and you. > > > > > > Freedom is the highest priority here. > > > > > > Lew > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > > > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . > > > > Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 9:08 PM > > > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > > > > > > > The kid did not apply for asylum. Some shirt-tail relationd did > > > > for him, but > > > > the boy had a FATHER who did not. A 6-year-old cannot make legal > > > > decisions. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Lew Glendenning > > > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > > Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 6:03 PM > > > > Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The kid had applied for asylum. He was therefore not in the country > > > > >illegally. > > > > > > > > > >A federal court said so, in a scathing judgement favoring the US > > > > >family/Elian > > > > >and overruling the Justice Dept. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > > > >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . > > > > >> Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:51 PM > > > > >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > > >> Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> There never was a child's legal custody situation involved. > > > > Everyone knew > > > > >> who and where the father was. The boy was in the country > > illegally and > > > > >> should have been returned to his father under that > > auspecies from the > > > > >> beginning. > > > > >> > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > >> From: Lew Glendenning > > > > >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > > >> Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:27 PM > > > > >> Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > >> >The problem of child custody is a state problem, not a > > > > federal problem. > > > > >> > > > > > >> >In any case, I think we should be very careful in advocating > > > > the use of > > > > >> >any of the 70+/86,000 federal police to use no-knock > > warrants for any > > > > >> reason > > > > >> >whatsoever. > > > > >> > > > > > >> >The mere existence of these forces is unConstitutional, IMHO. > > > > No-knock > > > > >> >warrants > > > > >> >are both stupid and unConstitutional, and I don't care what > > > > the Supremes > > > > >> say > > > > >> >about > > > > >> >it. > > > > >> > > > > > >> >All of these stupidities are desensitizing both the public and > > > > >> the fedgoons > > > > >> >to > > > > >> >this sort of 'solutions'. One step at a time, we have ended > > > > in a police > > > > >> >state, > > > > >> >where gov power has few limits. It continues from here. > > > > >> > > > > > >> >BTW: The parents were never married, and the Father showed > > > > no interest > > > > >> >in the kid until Castro got involved. > > > > >> > > > > > >> >Freedom is the only measure we should accept wrt gov > > actions. In this > > > > >> case, > > > > >> >our gov is sending a kid back to un-freedom, hunger and a > > real high > > > > child > > > > >> >mortality rate. Based upon his mother's actions, this is > > the kind of > > > > >> person > > > > >> >we should be > > > > >> >keeping. Keep the father here if it is so important to unit > > > > father and > > > > >> son. > > > > >> > > > > > >> >Lew > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > - > > > > - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 30 Apr 2000 09:24:15 -0700 I certainly agree with you. In my definition, choosing is a) uncoerced and b) generally admits the possibility of reversing the choice. This probable-father is not choosing. He has never been out of sight of Castro's minions. He is not free to make any decisions. He didn't decide to gain custody of his child, Castro did. He isn't free to defect. Elian, at least, has become so important to Cuba's political propaganda that he will never be out of sight of Castro's police. If Elian goes back to Cuba, it is a one-way decision. They can never try again. This child will be the most indoctrinated kid in Cuba. He will be kept 60 miles from the probable-father, who doesn't have a car. They will be trotted out for lots of rallies for a long time. There are no parental rights in Cuba. This is also a country with no property rights, no civil rights at all. There is a big shortage of food, of medicine. The death rate for childhood diseases, accidents, ... is therefore horrendous. Is it correct for two governments to make choices for a child? To use 3 vans of heavily armed INS slave catchers to take him from loving, free relatives and deliver him back to ownership of the Cuban state? To do so to satisfy the dictator of that slave state? This is also a real bad way to organize a society. Lew > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 5:59 AM > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > Lew, > > Rational? Define this for me. It has been my thought that it is > you that lacks > rationality. What is your definition of liberty? Is it for a > father to chose > the country of his choice in which to raise his children? Is it > for the freedom > of a father to raise his children in the "way that they are to go?" > > This is certainly a rational method of gaining an orderly society. > > Then, again, we might structure our society so that everything we > do is "for the > children." If a child wants to do this or that we let it, > regardless of age or > maturity. It seems that your vaunted courts have decided on this course. > > Larry Ball > lball@inetnebr.com > > Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > As I said, I side with the courts when they side with Freedom. > > > > Your statement is not rational argument. I have not charged > any of you with > > agreeing with Janet Reno and her baby murders. > > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: larry ball Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 30 Apr 2000 12:24:35 -0500 Allright, Lew, I know where you are coming from and respect the sentiment. However, I do not believe that your assertions have been proven. For example, lack of medicine. What I have heard for several years now is that Cuba has one of the best health care systems anywhere. They train a large number of doctors and other health care professionals. In fact they even export them to other third world nations. Also, you are probably not as old as I am. I remember Batista. Batista is the little punk dictator that Castro threw out. He was a baaad guy. The mafia controled Cuba through him. I remember going to naval reserve meetings while still in high school with a couple of officers that had taken their two week cruise there. The stories about sexual deviancy and other crime still sicken me. Nightclub acts where girls take on donkeys. This type of degenerancy was common in the Cuba of the '40's and '50's. What freedom did Batista and his Mafia bosses allow the average citizen? Castro might just come out better by comparison. And for that matter, Cuba, was a client state of the good old USA until Castro. Why did we not insure freedom and properity for our Cubano neighbors? Instead of looking out for the general good of Cubano society, we milked it! Elian is just a pimple on the mass injustice that has been inflicted upon the people first by Spain, then by Us and now Komrad Fidel. I still think that Elian is better off with his father. Larry Ball lball@inetnebr.com Lew Glendenning wrote: > I certainly agree with you. > > In my definition, choosing is a) uncoerced and b) generally admits the > possibility of reversing the choice. > > This probable-father is not choosing. He has never been out of sight of > Castro's > minions. He is not free to make any decisions. He didn't decide to gain > custody of his child, Castro did. He isn't free to defect. Elian, at > least, has become so important to Cuba's political propaganda that he will > never be out of sight of Castro's police. > > If Elian goes back to Cuba, it is a one-way decision. They can never try > again. > > This child will be the most indoctrinated kid in Cuba. He will be kept 60 > miles from the probable-father, who doesn't have a car. They will be > trotted out for lots of rallies for a long time. > > There are no parental rights in Cuba. This is also a country with no > property rights, no civil rights at all. There is a big shortage of food, > of medicine. The death rate for childhood diseases, accidents, ... is > therefore horrendous. > > Is it correct for two governments to make choices for a child? To use 3 > vans of > heavily armed INS slave catchers to take him from loving, free relatives and > deliver > him back to ownership of the Cuban state? To do so to satisfy the dictator > of that slave state? > > This is also a real bad way to organize a society. > > Lew > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 5:59 AM > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > Lew, > > > > Rational? Define this for me. It has been my thought that it is > > you that lacks > > rationality. What is your definition of liberty? Is it for a > > father to chose > > the country of his choice in which to raise his children? Is it > > for the freedom > > of a father to raise his children in the "way that they are to go?" > > > > This is certainly a rational method of gaining an orderly society. > > > > Then, again, we might structure our society so that everything we > > do is "for the > > children." If a child wants to do this or that we let it, > > regardless of age or > > maturity. It seems that your vaunted courts have decided on this course. > > > > Larry Ball > > lball@inetnebr.com > > > > Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > > > As I said, I side with the courts when they side with Freedom. > > > > > > Your statement is not rational argument. I have not charged > > any of you with > > > agreeing with Janet Reno and her baby murders. > > > > > > > - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 30 Apr 2000 14:22:11 -0700 I was a kid on my first trip to Florida when Castro took over. Coming back from the Keys, our car was searched for escapees from Cuba. Batatista was a lousy leader, in the grand Spanish tradition, but far from a totalitarian dictator. Cuba was not a great society, at least in the big cities. But, this is far from the worst that can befall a society. You hear Cuban/US Liberal propaganda about the wonders of Cuban society. True, they train a lot of health professionals, have 'free' health care, ... This only means something if the economy is strong enough to actually provide plumbing that works, surgical instruments, ... You guess -- If a society is so poor that the MDs have to resort to prostitution to feed their family, is it likely to be providing children's immunization? Which would you rather have: a degenerate society in Havana and a few other resort areas, or many wives resorting to prostitution? Don't tell me Castro is an improvement on Batista. People were bound by poverty and corruption with Batista, not by a totalitarian state. The latter is an entirely different class of beast, with an average longevity of 50+ years. 2.5 generations of lost hope, training understanding and expectations in entirely the wrong directions. With all of its advantages, East Germans will take an additional 2 generations to recover from the effects of their experiment with communism. Easy to check who is right about health care: Does Cuba provide normal morbidity/mortality statistics? Checked by international agencies? I am familiar with Russia, which stopped providing such statistics in the 70s. Their neonatal mortality had risen to 3rd world levels, and this was far from the depths the economy has descended to since then. Average age of death for a Russian man was 67 and falling. My wife's family has a lot of ugly stories about people who died for trivial reasons, including lousy care in hospitals. Bribery is required for MDs. There was an article in one of the Miami area papers about the lives of average Cuban families. Problems with medicine and health care were prominant. People resort to herbs and less-scientific remedies. As for Elian, he may be a small problem compared to Cuba, but he is one we can fix. Castro is Cuba's problem. We shouldn't be putting any barriers in the way of Miami's Cubans in fixing their problem. If we loosed the leashes, the problem would disappear shortly. As for the history, mafia, etc. I think your version is too simple. I am reading Buchanan's "Republic, not an Empire" which touches on all of this. We could have annexed Cuba the way we did Puerto Rico and the Philippines, but got smart just in time. I believe we helped free them from the Spanish, then stepped back. For all of that, Batista was no worse than most of the SA dictators of his day. Not our problem, any of them. Lew > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 10:25 AM > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > Allright, Lew, I know where you are coming from and respect the sentiment. > However, I do not believe that your assertions have been proven. > For example, > lack of medicine. What I have heard for several years now is > that Cuba has one > of the best health care systems anywhere. They train a large > number of doctors > and other health care professionals. In fact they even export > them to other > third world nations. > > Also, you are probably not as old as I am. I remember Batista. > Batista is the > little punk dictator that Castro threw out. He was a baaad guy. > The mafia > controled Cuba through him. I remember going to naval reserve > meetings while > still in high school with a couple of officers that had taken > their two week > cruise there. The stories about sexual deviancy and other crime > still sicken > me. Nightclub acts where girls take on donkeys. This type of > degenerancy was > common in the Cuba of the '40's and '50's. What freedom did > Batista and his > Mafia bosses allow the average citizen? Castro might just come > out better by > comparison. And for that matter, Cuba, was a client state of the > good old USA > until Castro. Why did we not insure freedom and properity for our Cubano > neighbors? Instead of looking out for the general good of Cubano > society, we > milked it! Elian is just a pimple on the mass injustice that has > been inflicted > upon the people first by Spain, then by Us and now Komrad Fidel. > > I still think that Elian is better off with his father. > > Larry Ball > lball@inetnebr.com > > Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > I certainly agree with you. > > > > In my definition, choosing is a) uncoerced and b) generally admits the > > possibility of reversing the choice. > > > > This probable-father is not choosing. He has never been out of sight of > > Castro's > > minions. He is not free to make any decisions. He didn't > decide to gain > > custody of his child, Castro did. He isn't free to defect. Elian, at > > least, has become so important to Cuba's political propaganda > that he will > > never be out of sight of Castro's police. > > > > If Elian goes back to Cuba, it is a one-way decision. They can > never try > > again. > > > > This child will be the most indoctrinated kid in Cuba. He will > be kept 60 > > miles from the probable-father, who doesn't have a car. They will be > > trotted out for lots of rallies for a long time. > > > > There are no parental rights in Cuba. This is also a country with no > > property rights, no civil rights at all. There is a big > shortage of food, > > of medicine. The death rate for childhood diseases, accidents, ... is > > therefore horrendous. > > > > Is it correct for two governments to make choices for a child? To use 3 > > vans of > > heavily armed INS slave catchers to take him from loving, free > relatives and > > deliver > > him back to ownership of the Cuban state? To do so to satisfy > the dictator > > of that slave state? > > > > This is also a real bad way to organize a society. > > > > Lew > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > > > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 5:59 AM > > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > > > > Lew, > > > > > > Rational? Define this for me. It has been my thought that it is > > > you that lacks > > > rationality. What is your definition of liberty? Is it for a > > > father to chose > > > the country of his choice in which to raise his children? Is it > > > for the freedom > > > of a father to raise his children in the "way that they are to go?" > > > > > > This is certainly a rational method of gaining an orderly society. > > > > > > Then, again, we might structure our society so that everything we > > > do is "for the > > > children." If a child wants to do this or that we let it, > > > regardless of age or > > > maturity. It seems that your vaunted courts have decided on > this course. > > > > > > Larry Ball > > > lball@inetnebr.com > > > > > > Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > > > > > As I said, I side with the courts when they side with Freedom. > > > > > > > > Your statement is not rational argument. I have not charged > > > any of you with > > > > agreeing with Janet Reno and her baby murders. > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > - > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: larry ball Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 30 Apr 2000 17:51:39 -0500 For the record, Lew, I have been in favor of sending the Marines in and removing Castro for 'lo these many years. I am still in favor of this. I am just NOT in favor of taking children from their parents. Larry Ball lball@inetnebr.com Lew Glendenning wrote: > I was a kid on my first trip to Florida when Castro took over. Coming back > from the > Keys, our car was searched for escapees from Cuba. > > Batatista was a lousy leader, in the grand Spanish tradition, but far from a > totalitarian dictator. Cuba was not a great society, at least in the big > cities. But, this is far from the worst that can befall a society. > > You hear Cuban/US Liberal propaganda about the wonders of Cuban society. > True, they train a lot of health professionals, have 'free' health care, ... > This only means something if the economy is strong enough to actually > provide plumbing that works, surgical instruments, ... You guess -- If a > society is so poor that the MDs have to resort to prostitution to feed their > family, is it likely to be providing children's immunization? > > Which would you rather have: a degenerate society in Havana and a few other > resort areas, or many wives resorting to prostitution? > > Don't tell me Castro is an improvement on Batista. People were bound by > poverty and corruption with Batista, not by a totalitarian state. The > latter is an entirely different class of beast, with an average longevity of > 50+ years. 2.5 generations of lost hope, training understanding and > expectations in entirely the wrong directions. With all of its advantages, > East Germans will take an additional 2 generations to recover from the > effects of their experiment with communism. > > Easy to check who is right about health care: Does Cuba provide normal > morbidity/mortality statistics? Checked by international agencies? > > I am familiar with Russia, which stopped providing such statistics in the > 70s. Their > neonatal mortality had risen to 3rd world levels, and this was far from the > depths > the economy has descended to since then. Average age of death for a Russian > man was 67 and falling. > > My wife's family has a lot of ugly stories about people who died for trivial > reasons, including lousy care in hospitals. Bribery is required for MDs. > > There was an article in one of the Miami area papers about the lives of > average > Cuban families. Problems with medicine and health care were prominant. > People resort to herbs and less-scientific remedies. > > As for Elian, he may be a small problem compared to Cuba, but he is one we > can fix. > > Castro is Cuba's problem. We shouldn't be putting any barriers in the way > of Miami's Cubans in fixing their problem. If we loosed the leashes, the > problem would disappear shortly. > > As for the history, mafia, etc. I think your version is too simple. I am > reading > Buchanan's "Republic, not an Empire" which touches on all of this. We could > have > annexed Cuba the way we did Puerto Rico and the Philippines, but got smart > just > in time. I believe we helped free them from the Spanish, then stepped back. > > For all of that, Batista was no worse than most of the SA dictators of his > day. Not our problem, any of them. > > Lew > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 10:25 AM > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > Allright, Lew, I know where you are coming from and respect the sentiment. > > However, I do not believe that your assertions have been proven. > > For example, > > lack of medicine. What I have heard for several years now is > > that Cuba has one > > of the best health care systems anywhere. They train a large > > number of doctors > > and other health care professionals. In fact they even export > > them to other > > third world nations. > > > > Also, you are probably not as old as I am. I remember Batista. > > Batista is the > > little punk dictator that Castro threw out. He was a baaad guy. > > The mafia > > controled Cuba through him. I remember going to naval reserve > > meetings while > > still in high school with a couple of officers that had taken > > their two week > > cruise there. The stories about sexual deviancy and other crime > > still sicken > > me. Nightclub acts where girls take on donkeys. This type of > > degenerancy was > > common in the Cuba of the '40's and '50's. What freedom did > > Batista and his > > Mafia bosses allow the average citizen? Castro might just come > > out better by > > comparison. And for that matter, Cuba, was a client state of the > > good old USA > > until Castro. Why did we not insure freedom and properity for our Cubano > > neighbors? Instead of looking out for the general good of Cubano > > society, we > > milked it! Elian is just a pimple on the mass injustice that has > > been inflicted > > upon the people first by Spain, then by Us and now Komrad Fidel. > > > > I still think that Elian is better off with his father. > > > > Larry Ball > > lball@inetnebr.com > > > > Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > > > I certainly agree with you. > > > > > > In my definition, choosing is a) uncoerced and b) generally admits the > > > possibility of reversing the choice. > > > > > > This probable-father is not choosing. He has never been out of sight of > > > Castro's > > > minions. He is not free to make any decisions. He didn't > > decide to gain > > > custody of his child, Castro did. He isn't free to defect. Elian, at > > > least, has become so important to Cuba's political propaganda > > that he will > > > never be out of sight of Castro's police. > > > > > > If Elian goes back to Cuba, it is a one-way decision. They can > > never try > > > again. > > > > > > This child will be the most indoctrinated kid in Cuba. He will > > be kept 60 > > > miles from the probable-father, who doesn't have a car. They will be > > > trotted out for lots of rallies for a long time. > > > > > > There are no parental rights in Cuba. This is also a country with no > > > property rights, no civil rights at all. There is a big > > shortage of food, > > > of medicine. The death rate for childhood diseases, accidents, ... is > > > therefore horrendous. > > > > > > Is it correct for two governments to make choices for a child? To use 3 > > > vans of > > > heavily armed INS slave catchers to take him from loving, free > > relatives and > > > deliver > > > him back to ownership of the Cuban state? To do so to satisfy > > the dictator > > > of that slave state? > > > > > > This is also a real bad way to organize a society. > > > > > > Lew > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > > > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 5:59 AM > > > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > > > > > > > Lew, > > > > > > > > Rational? Define this for me. It has been my thought that it is > > > > you that lacks > > > > rationality. What is your definition of liberty? Is it for a > > > > father to chose > > > > the country of his choice in which to raise his children? Is it > > > > for the freedom > > > > of a father to raise his children in the "way that they are to go?" > > > > > > > > This is certainly a rational method of gaining an orderly society. > > > > > > > > Then, again, we might structure our society so that everything we > > > > do is "for the > > > > children." If a child wants to do this or that we let it, > > > > regardless of age or > > > > maturity. It seems that your vaunted courts have decided on > > this course. > > > > > > > > Larry Ball > > > > lball@inetnebr.com > > > > > > > > Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > > > > > > > As I said, I side with the courts when they side with Freedom. > > > > > > > > > > Your statement is not rational argument. I have not charged > > > > any of you with > > > > > agreeing with Janet Reno and her baby murders. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > - > > > > - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: boyd@seanet.com Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 30 Apr 2000 18:59:03 -0700 Ken Mitchell wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 6:20 PM > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > snip > > Larry Ball > > One essential consideration here is that the Federal government has NEVER > BEFORE interfered in an international custody dispute. snip > There are hundreds of incidents where foreign-born parents (usually men) > have left the country with their kids, in violation of a custody order, and > the U.S. has refused even to protest to the foreign government involved. Why > is Slick Willie so eager to change positions here? First off I agree with neither of the "sides" here. IMHO this was not a clear cut simple custody case nor was it an obvious example of federal abuse of power. -But- since such a large number of people have decided to post so passionately about it in Restore Our Constitution, I'll take a small exception to this claim above. I have personal experience with a case where a father stole custody of the mothers children and took them to a central american country with no extradition agreement (at the time) with the US. The US state department -within- -days- (as they should have) dispatched their people in that country to demand deportation of the kidnapper and children and that governments federal forces were -doing- that when the kidnapper killed the children and committed suicide about a week later. It is -common- for nations to cooperate internationally in child kidnapping cases, even countries that do not share criminal extradition treaties. I am proud that our US state department is part of this general sort of informal international action. Boyd Kneeland > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ken Mitchell Citrus Heights, CA kmitchel@gvn.net > 916-955-9152 (voicemail) http://www.gvn.net/~creative/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > "In general the art of government consists in taking as much money as > possible from one class of citizens to give to the other." Voltaire > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Date: 30 Apr 2000 20:33:21 -0700 Freedom is the highest value, IMHO, but there are no doubt circumstances which could make me choose something else. Beware of single-valued ethics. A hint that you might be wrong is that this has lead you to support Clinton/Reno, Castro and a probable-father who probably doesn't give a damn over the future of a small child with a real brave mother. This combination of people is no doubt right about something, so we do have to make up our own minds, based on the evidence ... Lew > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 3:52 PM > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > For the record, Lew, I have been in favor of sending the Marines > in and removing > Castro for 'lo these many years. I am still in favor of this. I > am just NOT in > favor of taking children from their parents. > > Larry Ball > lball@inetnebr.com > > Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > I was a kid on my first trip to Florida when Castro took over. > Coming back > > from the > > Keys, our car was searched for escapees from Cuba. > > > > Batatista was a lousy leader, in the grand Spanish tradition, > but far from a > > totalitarian dictator. Cuba was not a great society, at least > in the big > > cities. But, this is far from the worst that can befall a society. > > > > You hear Cuban/US Liberal propaganda about the wonders of Cuban society. > > True, they train a lot of health professionals, have 'free' > health care, ... > > This only means something if the economy is strong enough to actually > > provide plumbing that works, surgical instruments, ... You > guess -- If a > > society is so poor that the MDs have to resort to prostitution > to feed their > > family, is it likely to be providing children's immunization? > > > > Which would you rather have: a degenerate society in Havana > and a few other > > resort areas, or many wives resorting to prostitution? > > > > Don't tell me Castro is an improvement on Batista. People were bound by > > poverty and corruption with Batista, not by a totalitarian state. The > > latter is an entirely different class of beast, with an average > longevity of > > 50+ years. 2.5 generations of lost hope, training understanding and > > expectations in entirely the wrong directions. With all of its > advantages, > > East Germans will take an additional 2 generations to recover from the > > effects of their experiment with communism. > > > > Easy to check who is right about health care: Does Cuba provide normal > > morbidity/mortality statistics? Checked by international agencies? > > > > I am familiar with Russia, which stopped providing such > statistics in the > > 70s. Their > > neonatal mortality had risen to 3rd world levels, and this was > far from the > > depths > > the economy has descended to since then. Average age of death > for a Russian > > man was 67 and falling. > > > > My wife's family has a lot of ugly stories about people who > died for trivial > > reasons, including lousy care in hospitals. Bribery is > required for MDs. > > > > There was an article in one of the Miami area papers about the lives of > > average > > Cuban families. Problems with medicine and health care were prominant. > > People resort to herbs and less-scientific remedies. > > > > As for Elian, he may be a small problem compared to Cuba, but > he is one we > > can fix. > > > > Castro is Cuba's problem. We shouldn't be putting any barriers > in the way > > of Miami's Cubans in fixing their problem. If we loosed the > leashes, the > > problem would disappear shortly. > > > > As for the history, mafia, etc. I think your version is too > simple. I am > > reading > > Buchanan's "Republic, not an Empire" which touches on all of > this. We could > > have > > annexed Cuba the way we did Puerto Rico and the Philippines, > but got smart > > just > > in time. I believe we helped free them from the Spanish, then > stepped back. > > > > For all of that, Batista was no worse than most of the SA > dictators of his > > day. Not our problem, any of them. > > > > Lew > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > > > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 10:25 AM > > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > > > > Allright, Lew, I know where you are coming from and respect > the sentiment. > > > However, I do not believe that your assertions have been proven. > > > For example, > > > lack of medicine. What I have heard for several years now is > > > that Cuba has one > > > of the best health care systems anywhere. They train a large > > > number of doctors > > > and other health care professionals. In fact they even export > > > them to other > > > third world nations. > > > > > > Also, you are probably not as old as I am. I remember Batista. > > > Batista is the > > > little punk dictator that Castro threw out. He was a baaad guy. > > > The mafia > > > controled Cuba through him. I remember going to naval reserve > > > meetings while > > > still in high school with a couple of officers that had taken > > > their two week > > > cruise there. The stories about sexual deviancy and other crime > > > still sicken > > > me. Nightclub acts where girls take on donkeys. This type of > > > degenerancy was > > > common in the Cuba of the '40's and '50's. What freedom did > > > Batista and his > > > Mafia bosses allow the average citizen? Castro might just come > > > out better by > > > comparison. And for that matter, Cuba, was a client state of the > > > good old USA > > > until Castro. Why did we not insure freedom and properity > for our Cubano > > > neighbors? Instead of looking out for the general good of Cubano > > > society, we > > > milked it! Elian is just a pimple on the mass injustice that has > > > been inflicted > > > upon the people first by Spain, then by Us and now Komrad Fidel. > > > > > > I still think that Elian is better off with his father. > > > > > > Larry Ball > > > lball@inetnebr.com > > > > > > Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > > > > > I certainly agree with you. > > > > > > > > In my definition, choosing is a) uncoerced and b) generally > admits the > > > > possibility of reversing the choice. > > > > > > > > This probable-father is not choosing. He has never been > out of sight of > > > > Castro's > > > > minions. He is not free to make any decisions. He didn't > > > decide to gain > > > > custody of his child, Castro did. He isn't free to defect. > Elian, at > > > > least, has become so important to Cuba's political propaganda > > > that he will > > > > never be out of sight of Castro's police. > > > > > > > > If Elian goes back to Cuba, it is a one-way decision. They can > > > never try > > > > again. > > > > > > > > This child will be the most indoctrinated kid in Cuba. He will > > > be kept 60 > > > > miles from the probable-father, who doesn't have a car. > They will be > > > > trotted out for lots of rallies for a long time. > > > > > > > > There are no parental rights in Cuba. This is also a > country with no > > > > property rights, no civil rights at all. There is a big > > > shortage of food, > > > > of medicine. The death rate for childhood diseases, > accidents, ... is > > > > therefore horrendous. > > > > > > > > Is it correct for two governments to make choices for a > child? To use 3 > > > > vans of > > > > heavily armed INS slave catchers to take him from loving, free > > > relatives and > > > > deliver > > > > him back to ownership of the Cuban state? To do so to satisfy > > > the dictator > > > > of that slave state? > > > > > > > > This is also a real bad way to organize a society. > > > > > > > > Lew > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > > > > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 5:59 AM > > > > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lew, > > > > > > > > > > Rational? Define this for me. It has been my thought that it is > > > > > you that lacks > > > > > rationality. What is your definition of liberty? Is it for a > > > > > father to chose > > > > > the country of his choice in which to raise his children? Is it > > > > > for the freedom > > > > > of a father to raise his children in the "way that they > are to go?" > > > > > > > > > > This is certainly a rational method of gaining an orderly society. > > > > > > > > > > Then, again, we might structure our society so that everything we > > > > > do is "for the > > > > > children." If a child wants to do this or that we let it, > > > > > regardless of age or > > > > > maturity. It seems that your vaunted courts have decided on > > > this course. > > > > > > > > > > Larry Ball > > > > > lball@inetnebr.com > > > > > > > > > > Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > As I said, I side with the courts when they side with Freedom. > > > > > > > > > > > > Your statement is not rational argument. I have not charged > > > > > any of you with > > > > > > agreeing with Janet Reno and her baby murders. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > - > > > - > -