From: Bill Vance Subject: Re: *BREAKING* Standoff underway in CA - (fwd) Date: 01 Sep 2001 10:24:59 -0700 *BREAKING* Standoff underway in CA - Forwarded Message: To: "misc list" FW: What you did'nt know about the Cali "Sniper" General Discussion Board THE REAL STORY ABOUT THE KALI "SNIPER" Posted By: Anon (You know why) I don't know if this will eventually come out or not but the truth is that the suspect James Beck is a former DEA agent who several years ago was arrested by the ATF for possession of machine guns. Funny thing was, the guy was properly licensed. Unfortunately, he had several pre and post samples of each gun (like 25 MP5's,30 UZI's, etc). In any case, he was arrested, charged and tried. First trial; hung jury. Second trial; hung jury. The feds decided to try a 3rd time so he filed lawsuit for malicious prosecution AND WON. Guess what, they tried him a 3rd time anyway. Result, another hung jury. Is it possible that the ATF was gunning for this guy. Probably. The ATF spin doctors are already hard at work calling this guy a "sniper". The fact of the matter is that when an arrest warrant is executed, it's not standard practice to have the ATF as backup. They wanted to burn this guy out and use the fire as an excuse for the "destroyed evidence". This was a government sponsored retaliatory assasination. He didn't start the fire, the tear gas did. Those are the facts. Cut out the middlemen. Send your donation to: Boys Scouts of America National HQ 1329 Walnut Hill Ln. Irving, TX 75162 http://www.SaveOurScouts.com -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: Socialists In CONGRESS (fwd) Date: 04 Sep 2001 23:13:01 -0700 WJPBR Email News List WJPBR@AOL.COM Peace at any cost is a Prelude to War! Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 12:36 AM William Jud 3 September 2001 SOCIALISTS IN CONGRESS When you think you are strong enough that your opposition can't harm you, you can be brazen enough to go public. Democratic Socialists of America now list their Congressional members on their website. "Socialism" is (1) a political system in which production and distribution of goods are controlled by 'the people' according to 'equity and fairness' rather than market principles, (2) a Socialist political movement, typically advocating the end to private property ownership and exploitation of workers, (3) a Marxist system in which pay and benefits are distributed according to 'need' rather than according to work done, (4) the intermediate Proletarian Revolution phase as society changes from Capitalism to Communism. Socialism's endgame is Communism. Communism is the opposite of our Republican form of national government. Communism requires abandoning Constitutionally-guaranteed rights of individual citizens for the "common good" of collective society. The Communist Manifesto demands the following: (1) end of private property ownership, (2) progressive and heavy taxation, (3) end of inheritance rights, (4) government confiscation of property of emigrants and rebels, (5) a national central bank, (6) government control of transportation and communication, (7) government ownership of factories and agriculture, (8) government control of labor, (9) corporate mega-farms to replace family farms, (10) regional planning, (11) government control of education. If you think America is abandoning it's Constitution and slouching into Socialism, consider yourself perceptive. According to the Democratic Socialists of America internet website -- http://bernie.house.gov/pc/ -- and the Socialist elected officials members list on the Progressive Caucus website -- http://bernie.house.gov/pc/members.asp -- America now has 58 elected Congressional Representatives in the US House of Representatives who are members of the Democratic Socialists of America. They help create our national policies and laws. Article 6 of our US Constitution says, in part, ". . . The Senators and Representatives before mentioned (in Article 6), and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution . . . " Elected officials who support the goals of Socialism do not and can not support the US Constitution. Those are mutually exclusive philosophies of government. Congressional Socialists violate their Oath Of Office, fraudulently continue serving in office, and are prime candidates for prosecution for treason. Socialists in Congress tend to support legislation such as HR-701, the Conservation And Reinvestment Act (CARA) which would spend US Treasury funds to condemn and force buyout of rural citizens' land and to relocate rural folks to giant hive cities where they can be more easily controlled and managed through dependency on government. Congressional Socialists tend to support massive land-grabs such as The Wildlands Project designed to return 80% of the United States to pre-Columbian wilderness. Congressional Socialists tend to support massive tax increases, massive government spending, restrictive regulations, unlimited immigration, taxing workers to reward drone citizens, federal control of education, and supporting and expanding international control of America through the United Nations. The Democratic Socialists of America, Progressive Caucus members list website, -- http://bernie.house.gov/pc/members.asp -- lists the following elected Representative! s in the US House of Representatives as members: Neil Abercrombie (HI-01), Tammy Baldwin (WI-02), Xavier Becerra (CA-30), David Bonior (MI-10), Corrine Brown (FL-03), Sherrod Brown (OH-13), Michael Capuano (MA-08), Julia Carson (IN-10), William Clay (MO-01), John Conyers (MI-14), Danny Davis (IL-07), Peter DeFazio (OR-04), Rosa DeLauro (CT-03), Lane Evans (IL-17), Eni Faleomavaega (American Samoa), Sam Farr (CA-17), Chaka Fattah (PA-02), Bob Filner (CA-50), Barney Frank (MA-04), Luis Gutierrez (IL-04), Earl Hilliard (AL-07), Maurice Hinchey (NY-26), Jesse Jackson, Jr. (IL-02), Sheila Jackson-Lee (TX-18), Stephanie Tubbs Jones (OH-11), Marcy Kaptur (OH-09), Tom Lantos (CA-12), John Lewis (GA-05), Jim McDermott (WA-07), James P. McGovern (MA-03), Carrie Meek (FL-17), George Miller (CA-07), Patsy Mink (HI-02), Jerry Nadler (NY-08), Eleanor Holmes Norton (DC), John Oliver (MA-01), Ed Pastor (AZ-02), Donald Payne (NJ-10)., Nancy Pelosi (CA-08), Jan Schakowski (IL-09), Jose Serrany ! (NY-16), Hilds Solis (CA-31), Pete Stark (CA-13), Bennie Thompson (MS-02), John Tierney (MA-06), Tom Udall (NM-03), Nydia Velazquez (NY-12), Maxine Waters (CA-35), Mel Watt (NC-12), Henry Waxman (CA-29), Lynn Woolsey (CA-06) *COPYRIGHT NOTICE** In accordance with Title 17 U. S. C. Section 107, any copyrighted work in this message is distributed under fair use without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for nonprofit research and educational purposes only.[Ref. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ] Want to be on our lists? Write at WJPBR@AOL.COM for a menu of our lists! -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: God, Guns, Government & History (fwd) Date: 06 Sep 2001 20:15:50 -0700 From: DAnde1706@aol.com [mailto:DAnde1706@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 3:18 PM Subject: God, Guns, Government & History The web pages God, Guns, Government & History - You, Your Government & Your Rights, have been restored. [Bob James] Awesome site! It is well worth spending the time reading through the site. http://members.ll.net/chiliast/GGGH/index2.html is the URL just in case anyone missed it. Bob -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: another anti-gun amendment coming (fwd) Date: 07 Sep 2001 23:22:05 -0700 Subj: [cp] FW: Chuck Schumer -- Another Anti-gun Amendment Coming Reply-to: cp3@yahoogroups.com -----Original Message----- [mailto:Gun_Owners_of_America@mailmanager.net] Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 17:34 Calls Needed to Sink Another Anti-gun Schumer Amendment Gun Owners of America E-Mail/FAX Alert 8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151 Phone: 703-321-8585 / FAX: 703-321-8408 http://www.gunowners.org (Thursday, September 6, 2001) -- They're baaack! Yes, the Congress is back, and our liberties are under fire once again. You will remember that in July, Rep. Jim Moran (D-VA) offered an amendment to force the FBI to keep gun buyers names for at least 90 days. After you guys contacted your Representatives, the Moran amendment failed miserably by a vote of 268-161. Now, Mr. Anti-Freedom himself -- Democratic Senator Chuck Schumer of New York -- wants to require the FBI to register gun buyers. Attorney General John Ashcroft recently reduced the registration period to 24 hours, but Schumer & Co. want to ratchet that time period back up to at least 90 days. Sen. Schumer is reportedly looking to offer his amendment to the Senate's Commerce-Justice-State budget bill (S. 1215). Gun owners should ask their Senators to vote AGAINST the Schumer amendment. Obviously, the best answer would be for Congress to repeal the unconstitutional Brady registration law. Short of that, Congress should enact the original Smith amendment which passed the Senate by a 69-31 vote in 1998. The Smith language calls for the "immediate destruction" of ANY and ALL information that might help identify lawful gun buyers. Moreover, the bill specifically authorizes private individuals to sue the FBI for registering gun owners and specifically offers to compensate them for legal fees when they sue the FBI. ACTION: While the Senate could vote as early as today on this amendment, it probably will not get to it until at least next Tuesday. Please use the prewritten text below to help direct your comments to your Senators. You can call your Senators at 202-224-3121. To identify your Senators, as well as to send a message via e-mail, see the Legislative Action Center at http://www.gunowners.org/activism.htm on the GOA website. ----- Pre-written message ----- Dear Senator: Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-NY) is planning to offer an amendment forcing the FBI to violate the privacy of thousands upon thousands of law-abiding Americans. The Senator wants the FBI to keep the names of decent gun buyers for at least 90 days. I urge you to oppose this amendment should Sen. Schumer offer it to the Commerce-Justice-State bill (S. 1215). I think the Senate should reenact the Smith amendment from 1998 -- an amendment which passed by a 69-31 vote. His language required the "immediate destruction" of ANY and ALL information that might help identify lawful gun buyers. Gun Owners of America will be keeping me updated on this issue. Sincerely, ************** -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: Latest from the Brady Bunch (fwd) Date: 07 Sep 2001 23:46:04 -0700 Indeed, a Love Fest such as one could only find under a rock. They asked me to send this drivel to my friends. For you Mass. readers, not endorsement of Cheryl whose last name rymes with fakes. Read it and choke... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Reply-To: do_not_reply@bradycampaign.org ===================================== BRADY E-ACTION RESPONSE NETWORK ALERT ===================================== Issue: 7 - 9/6/2001 HIGHLIGHTS COME TOGETHER: A NIGHT FOR JOHN LENNON BENEFITTING THE BRADY CENTER AND THE MMM MASSACHUSSETTS SPECIAL ELECTION URGE YOUR SENATORS TO SUPPORT THE REED BILL BRADY CAMPAIGN PRAISES JOHNS HOPKINS STUDY IN-DEPTH COME TOGETHER: A NIGHT FOR JOHN LENNON BENEFITTING THE BRADY CENTER AND THE MMM Come together at New York City's Radio City Music Hall on September 20 to honor the legendary John Lennon with musical guests including: Alanis Morisette, Beck, Cyndi Lauper, Lou Reed, Marc Anthony, Moby, Nelly Furtado, Seal, Shelby Lynne, Stone Temple Pilots and others. Kevin Spacey will host the evening's event. The concert, benefiting the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence united with the Million Mom March will celebrate the life and work of the legendary musician, John Lennon. Turner Network Television (TNT), in association with Ken Ehrlich Productions and Yoko Ono are the presenters of this special event. The concert is scheduled to broadcast on TNT on October 9. Kenneth Cole, a strong supporter of ours will be hosting a cocktail reception prior to the concert at the Rockefeller store near Radio City Music Hall. Join us at for this extraordinary event and preceding cocktail reception! RSVP early-- tickets are selling out quickly! Purchase your tickets now through our Web site or call our events line at 202-218-4646. Visit our Web site at MASSACHUSSETTS SPECIAL ELECTION State Senator Cheryl Jacques is running for Congress to fill the vacancy of the late Joe Moakley. Cheryl Jacques, recently endorsed by the Brady Campaign and the Boston Globe, is the true leader for gun safety in the Massachusetts legislature, working for five long years to pass a gun safety bill that is among the toughest in the nation. The Democratic primary is Tuesday, September 11, so please show your support by voting for Cheryl Jacques. To donate or volunteer for State Senator Jacques's campaign, please contact the campaign directly at 781-449-9072. To read more about the Boston Globe's support of State Senator Jacques, visit the Boston Globe's Web site at: http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/247/editorials/9th_district_endorsements+.shtml URGE YOUR SENATORS TO SUPPORT THE REED BILL Congress is back in session, and it is not too late to fax your Senators a letter urging them to support Senator Jack Reed's bill to close the gun show loophole. The Reed Bill would ensure that all firearm sales at gun shows would be subject to Brady Law criminal background checks, thus preventing thousands of criminals and prohibited purchasers from easy access to guns and saving countless lives. To read more about the Reed Bill and to send a fax to Congress, visit our Web site at: BRADY CAMPAIGN PRAISES JOHNS HOPKINS STUDY The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence applauded a new study issued last week, which shows that states with gun owner licensing and gun registration have been more successful at keeping guns out of the hands of criminals than states without such measures. To read our press release on this study, visit us at PASS IT ALONG! Please pass this message along to friends, family members, and colleagues so they too can take a stand for sensible gun laws. SUPPORT BRADY CAMPAIGN AND BRADY CENTER To make a contribution to the Brady Campaign, go to: . To make a contribution to the Brady Center, go to . You may also contact us by phone at (202) 898-0792 or mail in your contribution to the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence or the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence; 1225 Eye Street; Suite 1100; Washington, DC 20005. Sptember 6, 2001 ### -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: Congressional Alert (fwd) Date: 08 Sep 2001 12:50:45 -0700 In a message dated 9/7/01 11:52:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,=20 therepublican@ideasign.com writes: [Note: The Tenth Amendment to the Constitution states: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to= the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people". I would like for our national representatives to show Constitutional authority for the bills described below. Of course there is none, but if pressed, justification would be found in some vague wording reflecting how these issues affect "interstate commerce", which has become the favorite tool to circumvent Constitutional limitations on federal power. - Tony] FWD via: TRADITIONAL VALUES COALITION TVC NEWS Vol. 4, Issue 36, September 7, 2001 http://www.traditionalvalues.org CONGRESS BACK IN SESSION Congressmen came back from their summer recess to a flurry of unresolved legislative issues. TVC has been tracking and lobbying on several dangerous= pieces of legislation, plus bills that will promote traditional values and protect religious freedom and the family. To recap the legislation we have been following: S. 625: The Local Law Enforcement Enhancement Act of 2001. This is a Ted Kennedy hate crimes bill adding homosexuality as a protected behavior under= federal law. It will also provide funds for schools and governments to create 'safe schools' curriculum that will promote the homosexual agenda and demonize those who oppose homosexuality. S. 1284: The Employment Non-Discrimination Act (ENDA). This is another Kennedy bill co-sponsored by Republican turncoat, now Independent, quasi-Democrat Jim Jeffords of Vermont and Representative Barney Frank (D-MA), a homosexual activist. ENDA is a homosexual quotas bill that will provide special legal protections for homosexuals in the workplace and criminalize criticism of homosexuality by employers and employees. S. 1 and H.R. 1: These bills are basically identical pieces of legislation.= They were originally the Bush Administration's education reform bills, but were hijacked by liberals. Each bill contains expanded spending on federal programs in education. However, S. 1 contains the Helms Amendment, which forbids federal money going to schools or governments that deny the Boy Scouts access to public facilities. This amendment may be stripped out in conference committee. TVC will be lobbying members to prevent this. H.R. 7, the Community Solutions Act, is a bill that is the foundation of President Bush's faith-based initiative. If passed by both Houses of Congress, it will allow religious groups to receive federal funding without= strings just the same as secular groups. Homosexuals are trying to turn this into a hate crimes bill by adding a requirement that religious groups must abide by local pro-homosexual anti-discrimination laws if they receive= federal dollars. TVC is actively working to stop this amendment. [Note: Take Federal money and live with Federal mandates. - Tony] H.R. 2805, the Post-Abortion Depression Research and Care Act. This will provide $15 million to the National Institutes of Health to develop treatment programs for women who suffer from post-abortion depression. H.R. 2505, the Weldon-Stupak Human Cloning Prohibition Act, was passed by the House in August. It will be debated in the Senate. A fierce fight is expected. H.R. 2052 and S. 180, the Sudan Peace Act was offered to help end the slaughter of men, women, and children in a bloody civil war in Africa. This= legislation will condemn slavery and human rights abuses and put economic pressure on The Sudan to stop its genocidal war against Christians and other non-Muslims. An amendment to this bill offered by Rep. Spencer Baucus (R-AL), would prohibit foreign oil conglomerates working in the Sudan from dipping into American investment markets by listing their shares on the New York Stock Exchange. The amendment passed 422-2 last June. According to a September 8 article in WORLD magazine, oil interests are pouring over $500 million annually into the coffers of the Sudanese government. Two of the major oil conglomerates are the Communist Chinese National Petroleum Corporation and Canada-based Talisman Energy. Talisman=EDs CEO James Buckee says he will pu= ll out of Sudan if he can=EDt be listed on the New York Stock Exchange [Forwarded For Information Purposes Only - Not Necessarily Endorsed By The Sender - A.K. Pritchard] A.K. Pritchard http://members.ll.net/chiliast/ To subscribe to "The Republican" email list - just ask! therepublican@ideasign.com "If the Constitution is to be construed to mean what the majority at any given period in history wish the Constitution to mean, why a written Constitution?" --Frank J. Hogan, President, American Bar Assn. (1939)=20 -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: ACLU Sued for Invasion of Privacy (fwd) Date: 08 Sep 2001 12:51:58 -0700 In a message dated 9/7/01 9:58:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, therepublican@ideasign.com writes: ACLU Sued for Invasion of Privacy John L. Perry, NewsMax.com Saturday, Sept. 8, 2001 http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/9/7/154354.shtml Man bites dog is news. Now someone's suing the American Civil Liberties Union, possibly the nation's most-litigious liberal group, for - gasp! - invasion of privacy. The number of times the ACLU has dragged others into court for every conceivable abrogation of political correctness would be hard to assess. This time it's the ACLU that's on the other end of the litigation stick. It has to do with a suit filed in a county court in Nashville, Tenn., by a university sophomore who says the ACLU invaded his privacy by publishing his photograph depicting him as a convicted criminal in one of its issue advertisements. The ACLU has an advertising campaign going against the evils of America's jam-packed prisons. 'But I'm Innocent ?' In this particular ad, designed to resemble a wanted poster, the headline reads: "They Finally Found an Answer to Overcrowded Prisons. Smaller Prisoners." To illustrate the ACLU's point of view, there, displayed as if he were a juvenile prisoner, is the photo of one Jai Taylor. Problem is Jai Taylor is no prisoner. Nor is he a wanted criminal. What he really is are two other things: * He is a student in good standing, with no police record, at Tennessee State University, in Nashville. * He is sore as a boil at the ACLU. Not to Be Taken Lightly Worse yet for the ACLU, his mom, Shirley A. Wallace, is right there with him. Together, mother and son filed suit in Davidson County Chancery Court, saying the ACLU never got Jai's permission to use his photo in the ad or told him it was going to use it. The ad does more than display Jai's likeness. Its text recounts court cases in which juveniles have been prosecuted as adults for crimes, subjecting, the ad says, "small and vulnerable" youths to "rape and violence" when imprisoned with adult criminals. Jai and his mother are suing not only the ACLU - which ran the ad in such prominent places as New Yorker magazine and Savoy, a monthly catering to upscale black readers - but also the photographer and ACLU's advertising agency, DeVito/Verdi. It seems the photo was taken back in 1997, when Jai, now 18, was but a freshman in high school. Jai and his mother acknowledge they granted the right to the photographer, Tamara Reynolds, who took the shot as part of a theater class, to use it only once - but in "a religious family magazine.'' Not a Flattering Portrayal Jai told the Nashville Tennessean he first became aware of the ad when another college student told him she had recognized his face in a magazine and asked: "Are you on a work-release program? Is that how you are going to college?" If Jai wins his suit, he will be able to answer: "No. The American Civil Liberties Union is having to pay me enough money to put me through four years of college and then graduate, medical or law school." Not to mention an unspecified sum for punitive damages. A spokeswoman for the ACLU dismissed Jai's lawsuit as "without merit" - which is precisely how some people feel about suits the ACLU has filed against them. John L. Perry, a prize-winning newspaper editor and writer who served on White House staffs of two presidents, is senior editor for NewsMax.com. [Forwarded For Information Purposes Only - Not Necessarily Endorsed By The Sender - A.K. Pritchard] A.K. Pritchard http://members.ll.net/chiliast/ To subscribe to "The Republican" email list - just ask! therepublican@ideasign.com Annoy a Fascist: Just Say No to Gun Control! Annoy a Liberal: Think! >From Mark E. Howerter's Web Page "The Other Side of the News" http://www.otherside.net/ -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: Latest issue of 2ndAmendmentNews. (fwd) Date: 08 Sep 2001 18:24:46 -0700 -------- Original Message -------- * * * * 2ndAmendmentNews * * * * WHITE HOUSE UNRESPONSIVE ON GUN BAN SUNSET By Weldon Clark This affects the nation. So far the Bush White House has refused to answer the following letter from South Carolina Representative Dwight Loftis. It is published here with his permission. They have also refused to answer by personal letter on the same subject. It is up to you to send in your letters to President Bush and your own congressman to get them to stand up for our rights. E-mail will not do the job here. DO NOT ASSUME THEY WILL TAKE OUR SIDE. Place them on record with your own US mail letter. Also send your own letter to your own Congressman. This ban effects almost all the rifles used in rifle competition (except small bore) including the state and national matches, collecting and guns used for hunting. From The 2ndAmendmentNews Team Writing your CONGRESSMAN OR STATE LEGISLATORS can now be accomplished=20 at the speed of light. Use URLs as follows: http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/ Contacts for federal & state legislators http://www.gunowners.org/activism.htm You can call your two Senators at (202) 224-3121 and your Representative at (202) 225-3121 at the Capitol Switchboard. Here are the URLs for the United States Congress Official list of House of Representatives members by state http://clerkweb.house.gov/107/olm107.php3 Official list of House of Representatives members with phone numbers http://clerkweb.house.gov/107/mcapdir.php3 Official list of House of Representatives members mailing addresses http://clerkweb.house.gov/107/mbrcmtee/mailinglists/ASCIImemberlabels.txt Here are the URLs for the United States Senate Official list of members by state http://www.senate.gov/senators/senator_by_state.cfm Official list of members alphabetically dig on name to get address Phone fax and e mail (the individual Senators have different pages) http://www.senate.gov/senators/index.cfm U. S. Attorney General John Ashcroft, U.S. Depart. Of Justice 950 Pennsylvania Ave., NW Washington, DC 20530-0001 AskDOJ@usdoj.gov President George W. Bush, The White House, 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. NW,=20 Washington, DC 20500 president@whitehouse.gov Under Secretary Bolton U. S. Department of State 2201 C Street NW, Washin= gton,=20 DC 20520 (202) 647-4000 Secretary@state.gov To spread the word call Rush Limbaugh at 800-282-2882 and callers may call in from 12 noon to 3PM EST, M-F Letter from House of Representatives State of South Carolina Dwight A. Loftis District No. 19 =96 Greenville County August 16, 2001 ----------------- President George W. Bush =09 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. Washington, DC 20500 Dear President Bush: It has come to my attention that some of your White House staff has indicated that you support continuation of the so-called assault weapons ban of 1994. I understand this band will sunset in 2004. In 1994 Congress passed an importation and manufacture ban on the very type firearms that the U.S. Supreme Court said were protected by the Constitution in their U.S. vs. Miller decision in 1939. The America people rewarded this unconstitutional behavior in Congress by electing Republican majorities in both Houses in 1994 for the first time in 40 years. Your Attorney General John Ashcroft was reported to have said that an exception to allow support of firearms laws is of compelling government interest. I submit to you that in the case of the so-called assault weapons ban, no such compelling government interest exist. In the South Carolina General Assembly, I was the House sponsor of a successful repeal of a ban on the ownership and possession of rifles, pistols and shotguns that were made under contract to the United States Government. This law covered many more firearms than the law in California and the federal ban on so-called assault firearms. Firearms owners were very pleased and there was no protest from the media or anyone else. No additional crimes were credited to this repeal. Nothing bad happened. I would ask your consideration to allow this ban to sunset as scheduled in 2004. Sincerely, Dwight A. Loftis * * * * * DIRECT ACTION is grassroots activism at its best!=20 2ndAmendmentNews is part of the growing network of state and local groups fighting for our rights. To subscribe or unsubscribe from 2ndAmendmentNews, please send your request with correct email address included to sanews-request@direct-action.org To reach the publishers with your alerts or suggestions for future articles, please send your mail with correct email address to sanews@direct-action.org Please feel free to forward and circulate this newsletter! And check out these other grassroots projects in the network .... To receive Neal Knox's bi-monthly newsletter, send a contribution of $25 or more to The Firearms Coalition, Box 3313, Manassas, VA 20108. For current news and legislative updates contact, call 1-900-225-3006 (89 cents per minute) or visit http://www.NealKnox.com (free) and go to "Scripts from the Firearms Coalition Legislative Update Line". Learn "What To Do If The Police Come To Confiscate Your Militia Weapons" at http://www.SecondAmendment.net The Georgia Sport Shooting Association wants you! A free shooting events list is published every two weeks. Sign up at http://www.gssa.com Be sure to track the battle for our rights in the front-line state of Maryland at http://www.direct-action.org --=20 --- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RK= BA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+------------------= --- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath n= o weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand =3D Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy= a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Chr= ist ----------------+----------+--------------------------+------------------= --- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! --- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: 'Ghosts' Group Threatens IRS Employees (fwd) Date: 08 Sep 2001 21:35:00 -0700 >From Offshore & Privacy Club newsletter 9/2/2001 http://offshore-privacy.com * 'Ghosts' Group Threatens IRS Employees Mysterious warning targets agency workers for attack A group calling itself the "Ghosts of the Revolution" has issued a threatening warning to the Internal Revenue Service, claiming that agents, employees and IRS offices could be targeted for attacks after Sept. 1. "This warning is given to all Americans now employed by the Internal Revenue Service," the group said in a four-page communiqu=E9, a copy of which was provided to WND. "The IRS is a criminal organization in the service of collectivists and socialists. A condition of war now exists between free Americans and the IRS," said the warning. "The failure of the IRS to conduct itself in a lawful manner has brought about the need for this action." Several copies of the communiqu=E9 were sent out Aug. 6, bearing a Casper, Wyo., postmark. The warning comes just weeks before tax reform advocates, congressional supporters and officials from the IRS and Justice Department are to meet in Washington, D.C., to discuss the nature, scope and legality of the federal income tax and the 16th Amendment. The hearings - scheduled for Sept. 25 and 26 - are still on, despite the threat, said tax-reform expert and author Bob Schulz, who plans to attend and participate. Schulz is director of We the People Foundation, a tax reform group that is also sponsoring the hearings. Besides Schulz, tax-reform advocate Devvy Kidd, tax attorney Larry Becraft and former IRS agent Joe Banister - all hearings participants, too - also received copies. Schulz said Rep. Roscoe Bartlett, a Maryland Republican who helped arrange the hearings, also received a copy. He said he and Bartlett discussed the communiqu=E9 last week when Schulz visited Bartlett in his Washington office. However, no one in Bartlett's office was available on Friday to confirm or deny whether the congressman received a copy of the warning. Schulz said the contents of the communiqu=E9 weren't made public until this week because recipients said they weren't sure what to do. But he did say recipients immediately contacted the FBI. A spokesman at the bureau's headquarters in Washington told WND he had not heard of the communiqu=E9. But Peter Gulotta, an FBI spokesman in the bureau's Baltimore office - in Bartlett's district - said the agency "was aware of the threat." "I don't know where the threat originated, but we're taking it seriously and looking into it," he told WND. Schulz also said he had been interviewed by agents from the Treasury Department, but the agency did not return phone calls for confirmation. Schulz said he wasn't sure if the communiqu=E9 was sent by "a competitor" or not, but he suggested it could even have come from a government agency. He noted that all of the recipients, ironically, are associated in some way with this month's hearings. Some experts say the warning could be the work of a "provocateur" - either a government agent or other faction seeking to discredit the tax reform movement specifically in advance of next month's hearings, or simply to discredit the movement in general. The group claims it sent copies of its statement to other media outlets, including newspapers, television stations, magazines, and "select Internet sites." One such Internet newssite, The Sierra Times, reported that the communiqu=E9 "warns citizens to avoid IRS facilities beginning Sept. 1." Schulz told WND he did not in any way sanction the violence alluded to in the communiqu=E9. "That's not who I am," Schulz said. "I don't condone that kind of behavior. We don't want to see anyone hurt." Meanwhile, Schulz said negotiations were moving ahead in selecting tax-reform attorneys and experts to present evidence and make arguments during the upcoming hearings. However, Schulz refused to say whether his group had selected a "lead counsel" to head up the team. A week ago, WND reported that Robert Bernhoft had stepped down as the group's lead counsel. "I wish the foundation and the other interested Americans success," he told WND, saying he wasn't "at liberty" to discuss the details of why he stepped down. "The federal income tax is a slave tax. We're a free people; we're not slaves. There are so many constitutional violations and legal problems with the current tax as it's imposed and collected that the tax will unwind eventually, somehow," he said. Mike Bodine, a spokesman for the foundation, cited "personality differences" as the reason why Bernhoft resigned. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=3D24304 COMMENT: This is an interesting development, and we wouldn't put it past the government to fake this implied and threatened violence to discredit the entire tax protest movement (just as it's beginning to gather serious steam). Past government antics to vilify opponents in an unlawful manner have been commonplace. After all, the biggest lawbreaker in any nation is the lawmakers' agencies themselves (but only for "the common good" of course). The rest of us are expected to follow the rules, but government does not, unless it's convenient to do so. If these letters are in fact genuine, then it's a shame that they have more potential to sabotage the tax protest movement than to assist it. Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent, and we are not nearly so desperate at this point in time as to initiate random violence against government representatives. Only if all alternatives are exhausted, and the government itself brutal and violent and merciless in its efforts to suppress its citizens, could violence be suggested as a viable protest policy. We are not at that point yet and fervently hope that we will never will be. --=20 --- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RK= BA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+------------------= --- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath n= o weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand =3D Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy= a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Chr= ist ----------------+----------+--------------------------+------------------= --- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! --- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: a perfect example of what's wrong with cops (fwd) Date: 10 Sep 2001 09:38:29 -0700 Dear Editor: I had a very disturbing conversation with a member of local law enforcement the other day. It was during a break while we were volunteering at car seat safety check. With over 99% of child car seats installed incorrectly, it=E2=80=99s probably the best way to not ha= ve to deal with dead or dying kids during my day job working for an ambulance service. I have no recollection of how we started about talking about the Constitution, but one remark shook me. He said, "We need to rewrite the Constitution. As it was written in the 1870=E2=80=99s, it really does= n=E2=80=99t work any more." Trying to keep my voice even, and not even correcting his obvious gaff, I said, "Oh, really? What parts in particular?" "Like the 4th Amendment. If you have nothing to hide, you shouldn=E2=80=99= t have any problem with letting the police search your car or your house. The only people who are protected by the 4th are criminals with something to hide." I was stunned. Didn=E2=80=99t they teach him Constitutional Law when he w= as in the law enforcement academy? Or even history while he was in high school? Just to keep the conversation moving, I asked, "Anything else?" "Yeah, the First Amendment needs some work too. The press has entirely too much power." Tentatively, I said, "I can=E2=80=99t say that I=E2=80=99ll agree with yo= u there as I write a weekly column for a local arts and entertainment newspaper." I hoped he wouldn=E2=80=99t recognize me from my column as it looks at ne= ws from a different bent. It=E2=80=99s also as Libertarian as I can push pas= t my editor--I go out of my way chronicling the folly of the war on drugs, push a pro-2nd Amendment agenda as hard as I can, sarcastically point out the misuses of our civil rights destroying bloated and mismanaged government on all levels from city to state to federal and much more. Thankfully, he didn=E2=80=99t recognize me as I had skewered some local l= aw enforcement practices just the week before and had no desire for a body cavity search. He seemed a bit uncomfortable as we talked about some of the left leaning reporters in the other media for a few minutes. Then I asked him if there was anything else wrong with the Constitution as it was written. He rolled his eyes and said, "Don=E2=80=99t even get me started on the 2n= d Amendment." He then went on a long-winded discourse on how only police and military were =E2=80=98qualified=E2=80=99 to have guns. He sto= pped as my eyes glazed over with the effort it took to bite my tongue. I wish that I could say that I was able to convince him of the error of his ways. To tell you the truth, I didn=E2=80=99t even try as I knew a hopeless cause when I saw one. I took a couple of deep breaths, nodded and then went to find some more car seats to check. Crawling through backseats infested with moldering french fries was much better than having to deal with this example of our city=E2=80=99s finest. Afterwards, and while replaying back the conversation in my head, I did resolve that I would more fully learn my rights and exercise them. I have a concealed weapons permit from a previous job and intend to keep it and will exercise it by carrying my evil high capacity Glock 9mm as often as I can. If pulled over, I will not allow the police to search my car for any reason unless they go to the trouble of getting a search warrant. My children have been instructed to never allow a police officer into the house without a search warrant. I will make more effort in pointing out civil rights violations to the readers of my column. Most importantly, I will work to see that my children are free thinkers who won=E2=80=99t follow the cr= owd and that they should question governmental authority. In the course of my work, I spend a lot of time with local law enforcement and I=E2=80=99m finding the attitudes displayed by this offic= er are more and more the norm most particularly with younger officers. I don=E2=80=99t know if it=E2=80=99s from the dumbing down of the education= al system, the slant of media, pressures from command staff or the quality of people being hired into law enforcement, but it looks like it=E2=80=99s g= oing to be a dark future. Joe Collins (mfross@derbyworks.net) --=20 --- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RK= BA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+------------------= --- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath n= o weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand =3D Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy= a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Chr= ist ----------------+----------+--------------------------+------------------= --- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! --- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: Knives used in hijackings Date: 12 Sep 2001 11:28:16 -0400 One thing to note here. You don't need ANY weapons to hijack a plane. You just need to convince others that you have them. Just the threat of weapons is enough. I just saw an interview with a lady (who is a flight attendant with United) whose male relative was on the plane that crashed in PA. He had called using the in-flight phone in the seat back and said that the hijackers claimed to have a bomb. She said that he did not mention any other weapons like knives, razors, box cutters, or guns. They probably didn'y have a bomb and she speculated that her relative and some other male passengers probably tried to subdue these guys and in so doing made them fail their mission... Chad --On Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:59 AM -0600 Scott Bergeson wrote: > charles hardy wrote: > >> Obviously, allowing random firearms into pressurized planes >> is not a very good solution. Even LEOs have to go through >> special FAA training before they are supposed to carry their >> guns on planes. So as much as I support RKBA, you'll not hear >> me suggesting passengers--even those with CCW permits--be >> allowed to carry guns on planes. > > Although one would not want to shoot into the cockpit or damage > flight control mechanisms, small holes in the fuselage are no > big deal. It is rather unlikely to rupture, nor will several > bullet holes overwhelm the pressurization system. Nevertheless, > sky marshalls carry grooved aluminum hollowpoint bullets. > > Considering your other concerns, perhaps passengers should > carry fighting knives. Istr once seeing ads in places like > Soldier of Fortune for fiber composite knives that would > not activate metal detectors. I'm not advocating smuggling > weapons to defeat airport security, but rather emphasizing > the need to change those restrictions, as these incidents > show. In the meantime, I wouldn't fly commercial except > under duress. (assuming flights resume) Attacking brawny, > knife-wielding hijackers with bare hands and feet isn't > my first choice. However, why not an airliner enhancement > on the CCW permit (or instead of, should we get Vermont > carry), much like the motorcycle enhancement on a driver > license? > > Scott > > - > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Go get them! (fwd) Date: 12 Sep 2001 11:49:59 -0400 Hi ROC Here is a message I just sent to President Bush by email. He will probably never get it but someone there might read it. This is not a job for cruise missiles. This is a job for the boys of SF and their worldwide buddies. Chad ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises, Inc. & Shire.Net LLC" Reply-To: chad@pengar.com cc: chad@pengar.com Message-ID: <116254556.1000295219@[192.168.99.66]> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.0 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Mr. President! I wanted to let you know that we, the American people, are behind you. I'd much rather have you and Gen. Powell and the rest in charge than that spineless Wimp Algore, AKA Albore. There is a well known fictional President or two that you can use for your role models. Jack Ryan, someone who did not want to be President, but who was a damn fine President and did not take things sitting down would be the first example role model for you. The second would be the President as depicted by Harrison Ford in the movie "Air Force One." When you are sure of who was behind this, Mr. President, kill them all. If, as suspected, this Osama Bin Laden guy is behind this, with his Taliban protectors, send in a bunch of special forces hunter killer teams and kill all of Bin Ladens people and him in Afghanistan. Kill them all. Leaving any left will allow them to rebuild and seek revenge. No one will know they are there and no one will know when they do their business. As was rumored in Iraq and, with Bristish SAS in Argentina in the 80s, these soldiers can go in and stay hidden for weeks and do whatever they need to do. I'm sure Vladimir Putin will help out with access through Russia. And that Tony and Gerhardt and the rest will volunteer the SAS, and other help as needed. They realize that they are not immune to this as well. Then, tell the Taliban they had their chance to hand him over and that now it is too late. As accessories to the crime, bomb EVERY Afghanistan government building. Bomb the crap out of them, Mr. President. And then send in the relief agencies to help the poor Afghan people who are suffering. An Afghan Marshall Plan. Good luck Mr President, we are counting on you. Be a Jack Ryan President. Sincerely, Chad Leigh ---------- End Forwarded Message ---------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: Morning of Horror - by L. Neil Smith (fwd) Date: 12 Sep 2001 09:59:51 -0700 [cp] FW: [Lis-LEAF] MORNING OF HORROR -L. Neil Smith MORNING OF HORROR By L. Neil Smith Special to _The Libertarian Enterpise_ First of all, expect never to learn the truth about what happened at the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and elsewhere this morning of September 11, 2001, any more than we did with regard to the murders of Jack and Bobby Kennedy, Martin Luther King, at Ruby Ridge, Waco, or Oklahoma City. Ambiguity and uncertainty serve far too many political interests. Another certainty is that, although I'm told 50,000 people worked in the World Trade Center, more innocent individuals will die as a result of what the Old Media are lovingly referring to as a "lockdown" of Manhattan and other places, than any acts of terrorism that may have occurred. The military has just said they'll shoot down any plane they see flying. Only one civilian plane is in the air this morning, Air Force One; that's as grim a warning of things to come as I can think of. "Collateral" deaths won't just happen as a consequence, say, of somebody with a heart attack being unable to get to a hospital, but whenever and wherever some dumb kid in an army uniform gets startled by a car backfiring and starts spraying everybody and his pet poodle with automatic rifle fire. Or to whomever the martial lawyers decide it's safe to liquidate using this foul mess as a cover. Or, vastly more ominously, to people in the not-so-distant future who decide they must resist the police state that will inevitably result from these events. It's extremely difficult to think coherently about long term effects, let alone to get it all down in writing, when you learn that, not only were hijacked commercial aircraft used to commit these unspeakably evil acts, but that 90 passengers died helplessly in the first plane, and others yet unnumbered may have died in subsequent attacks. _Somebody_ has to think about it, though, or this situation will be used to turn the Bill of Rights off forever. Depending on the planning behind it, or who did the planning, it may already be too late. All airports have been shut down today, and I shudder to think about what flying will be like from now on. The Clintons, Schumers, and Waxmans will try to shut down the Internet, calling it a breeding ground for terrorism. The Bushes and Cheneys will "reluctantly" go along. Rush Limbaugh will cheer them on. What should those who value their freedom do? Every chance you have, from this moment on, whether it's on talk radio, or on the letters to the editor page, on the Internet while it's still possible, or in communication with everyone you know -- it's time for even the most apolitical to write to senators and congressmen -- emphasize two points: First, inform them that closing down the First or Second or any other Amendment is not an appropriate response to what's happened, and that any politician or bureaucrat in office who attempts to capitalize on today's horrors is committing the same sort of blatantly criminal act I've always insisted must be punished under Bill of Rights enforcement. Second, these things happen to nations with imperial ambitions. There has never been a major act of terrorism I know of that hasn't resulted from an act of government that violated somebody's rights. The way to keep this sort of thing from happening again is to stop those violations. Hideously enough, my new novel _The American Zone_, scheduled to be published next November by Tor Books, begins with an act very similar to this one, carried out to force the creation of a strong central government in the governmentless "North American Confederacy" that figures in so many of my books. As anybody who knows my work can safely predict, the evil scheme doesn't work and the villains are defeated. Life isn't as predictably pleasant as fiction. Happy endings are few and far between. But it's important to act swiftly if we're to preserve anything resembling the freedom that made this civilization great. Pass the word. http://www.smith2004.org/ **************************************************************************** "I have no reason to suppose that he, who would take away my Liberty, would not when he had me in his Power, take away everything else." John Locke **************************************************************************** "I am sure there was no man born marked of God above another for none comes into the world with a saddle upon his back, neither any booted and spurred to ride him."- Last words of Richard Rumbold before being hanged for planning an insurrection against the tyrant Charles II, 1679 -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: Bombings -- START TAKING NOTES (fwd) Date: 12 Sep 2001 12:20:37 -0700 --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Mike Ruppert wrote: >Now is the time that all of us need to be the best investigators that we can >possibly be. I suggest that, in the earliest moments, some of us take >responsibility for monitoring CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox and MS-NBC to log >reports as they come in. As with previous stories of lesser magnitude our >strengths lay in keeping side by side evaluations and watching for >discrepancies and alterations. I've been mostly watching the one local NYC station still operating (the other local stations all had their antennas on top of the WTC), and one thing I noticed that has been mentioned by survivors or rescue personnel who have been interviewed is the fact that all of them have mentioned secondary explosions occuring at the bottom level of the Towers after the planes struck. One rescue personnel person actually stated that vans with explosives had been parked in the lower parking level and rigged to go off after the planes struck.... I haven't heard this mentioned on any of the national media stations... A construction worker who had been working in one of the Towers was just interviewed, he said that after the first plane struck and they saw debris raining down, they debated what to do, and this guy said that 'someone' told them that they should stay put and not evacuate, but they decided to ignore that advice and leave anyway...that is the only reason this guy and his coworkers were still alive... I wonder who this person was who went around telling people to stay put, and how many vicitms can be attributed to those following that advice... June -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Go get them! (fwd) Date: 12 Sep 2001 18:46:06 -0700 BS. This approach would make all of us feel real good (well, except for lingering regret for all the women and children and other civilians who will be killed in our 'surgical' strikes). However, it won't do anything for the terrorism problem, and will likely make it worse. These terrorists have raised the art to an entirely new level: they are going after economic infrastructure, not just political targets. They started using technological and economic thinking, not acting like poly-sci/sociology/psych majors building simple bombs to make simple political statements. The western world is balanced on a tall needle of technology and techno-infrastructure. Any idiot can kick it over with minimal effort: any engineer can give you a dozen ways that 20 guys can cost us 20% of the economy's output for at least 3 months each. Some guy out of the Monterey Naval Graduate School wrote papers on this, said he could put the US into a long-term recession for $20M (memory here), 20 people and make $1B while he was doing it. Osama Bin Laden should have made a lot of money trading stocks yesterday, having had advance knowledge of what stocks were going to have problems. We can avoid a war on/with terrorism. Go back to the Constitution: abrogate all of our mutual defense treaties, withdraw from the UN, bring all the troops home, defend our borders, announce free and open trade, lower taxes to the best in the world. We will continue to be the world leader as we are now, but without any of the burdens of Empire. Nobody has ever won one, not where the terrorists have reasonable community support. No Empire has ever survived its ascent to this level, and they die faster and faster. The complexity has killed them all, and I have no faith that our politicians are up to the task. Go read "Un-intended Consequences" again guys. The British people lost Civil Rights, the IRA didn't stop bombing. Half the British Army wasn't sufficient to control a couple of small counties. We are in much more danger from our own out-of-control gov than we are from foreign Terrorists. Indeed, our foreign terrorism problem is entirely due to the prior actions of our out-of-control government. More 'solutions' by our gov is certainly not the answer. Lew Glendenning -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises, Inc. & Shire.Net LLC Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:50 AM Hi ROC Here is a message I just sent to President Bush by email. He will probably never get it but someone there might read it. This is not a job for cruise missiles. This is a job for the boys of SF and their worldwide buddies. Chad ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises, Inc. & Shire.Net LLC" Reply-To: chad@pengar.com cc: chad@pengar.com Message-ID: <116254556.1000295219@[192.168.99.66]> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.0 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Mr. President! I wanted to let you know that we, the American people, are behind you. I'd much rather have you and Gen. Powell and the rest in charge than that spineless Wimp Algore, AKA Albore. There is a well known fictional President or two that you can use for your role models. Jack Ryan, someone who did not want to be President, but who was a damn fine President and did not take things sitting down would be the first example role model for you. The second would be the President as depicted by Harrison Ford in the movie "Air Force One." When you are sure of who was behind this, Mr. President, kill them all. If, as suspected, this Osama Bin Laden guy is behind this, with his Taliban protectors, send in a bunch of special forces hunter killer teams and kill all of Bin Ladens people and him in Afghanistan. Kill them all. Leaving any left will allow them to rebuild and seek revenge. No one will know they are there and no one will know when they do their business. As was rumored in Iraq and, with Bristish SAS in Argentina in the 80s, these soldiers can go in and stay hidden for weeks and do whatever they need to do. I'm sure Vladimir Putin will help out with access through Russia. And that Tony and Gerhardt and the rest will volunteer the SAS, and other help as needed. They realize that they are not immune to this as well. Then, tell the Taliban they had their chance to hand him over and that now it is too late. As accessories to the crime, bomb EVERY Afghanistan government building. Bomb the crap out of them, Mr. President. And then send in the relief agencies to help the poor Afghan people who are suffering. An Afghan Marshall Plan. Good luck Mr President, we are counting on you. Be a Jack Ryan President. Sincerely, Chad Leigh ---------- End Forwarded Message ---------- - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: Seven Deadly Sins (fwd) Date: 15 Sep 2001 09:09:22 -0700 Lord Mountbatten--"...For in the last resort, civilization stands or falls not by covenants, but by the sword..." "The Seven Deadly Sins of Terrorism: Lord Mountbatten Didn't Die For Your Sins" written by Paul Johnson (British journalist; former editor of the New Statesman) The unedited version can be found in the New Republic, September 15, 1979, page 19-21. Most of you will recall that Mountbatten, (related to the Queen of England and was also a British Lord), was assassinated in a terrorist attack carriedout by the Provisional IRA. --------------- "The Seven Deadly Sins of Terrorism: Lord Mountbatten Didn't Die For Your Sins" by Paul Johnson (edited) September 15, 1979 The wrong approach to terrorism is to see it as one of many symptoms of a deep-seated malaise in our society . . . . This analysis usually ends in the meaningless and defeatist conclusion that society itself is to blame: 'We are all guilty.' International terrorism is not part of a general human problem. It is a specific and identifiable problem on its own. . . . It is a remediable problem. To say it is remediable is not to underestimate the size and danger of the problem. On the contrary: it is almost impossible to exaggerate the threat that terrorism poses for our civilization. . . . One reason why it constitutes such a grave and growing threat is that very few people in the civilized world--governments and parliaments, TV and newspapers, the public generally--take terrorism seriously enough. Most people, lacking an adequate knowledge of history, tend to underestimate the fragility of a civilization. They do not appreciate that civilizations fall as well as rise. . . . There was a common factor in all these great [falls]. They occurred when the spread of metals technology and the availability of raw materials enabled the forces of barbarism to equal or surpass the civilized powers in the quality and quantity of their weapons. For in the last resort, civilization stands or falls not by covenants, but by the sword. . . . Menacing improvements in terrorism have been brought about by the international availability of terrorist support, supply, and training services. Terrorism is no longer a purely national phenomenon, which can be destroyed at the national level. It is an international offensive--an open and declared war against civilization itself--which can only be defeated by an active alliance of the civilized powers. The impact ofterrorism . . . is intrinsically evil . . . for a number of . . . reasons--what I call the seven deadly sins of terrorism. First - Terrorism is the deliberate and cold-blooded exaltation of violence over all forms of political activity. The modern terrorist employs violence not as a necessary evil, but as a desirable form of action. The Second deadly sin is the deliberate suppression of the moral instincts in man. Terrorist organizers have found that it is not enough to give their recruits intellectual justifications for murder: indeed the abandonment of any system of moral criteria becomes an essential element in its training. (Recruits are made to experience and participate in moral depravity like murder or rape because they cannot be expected to be an effective terrorist as long as they retain moral elements of a human personality.) Third is the rejection of politics as the normal means by which communities resolve conflicts. To terrorists, violence is a substitute for the entire political process. [Which explains the difference between Bin Laden and Arafat and Sinn Fein, which used terrorism as a bargaining chip to gain themselves a place in the political process, but now that they are at the table, want to participate in the political process.] The Fourth Deadly Sin is that it necessarily and actively assists the spread of the totalitarian state. Countries that finance and support terrorism are without exception despotic states. Fifth, international terrorism poses no threat to the totalitarian state. That kind of state can always defend itself by judicial murder, preventive arrest, torture of prisoners and suspects, and complete censorship of terrorist activities. Terrorism can only get a foothold in a state where the executive is under some kind of restraint, legal, democratic, and moral. Sixth is that terrorism exploits the apparatus of freedom in liberal societies, and thereby endangers it. In meeting the threat of terrorism, a free society must arm itself, but that process of arming itself threatens the freedoms, decencies and standards that make the society civilized, because of the emergency actions that must be taken. These actions may threaten those freedoms. The Seventh deadly sin is that if a free society reacts to terrorism by invoking authoritarian methods, it damages itself. But even worse, if free societies in their anxiety to avoid authoritarian excesses, FAIL to arm themselves against the terrorist threat, then the terrorists triumph. The seventh and deadliest sin is that terrorism can sap the will of a civilized society to defend itself. We have seen it happen. We find governments negotiating with terrorists . . . to concede to their demands. We find governments providing ransom money . . . releasing convicted criminals in response to demands . . . conceding them the status of political prisoners. . .. We find newspapers and TV networks placing democratic governments and the terrorists on a level of moral equality. We find governments failing time and again, in their duty to persuade the public that terrorists are not misguided politicians. They are criminals. They are extraordinary criminals, indeed, in that they pose a threat not merely to the individuals they murder without compunction, but to the whole fabric of society. In short, the seventh and deadliest sin of terrorism is its attempt to induce civilization to commit suicide. ----------------------- Charles Riggs - Gunsite 1991 - DVC! "Fight Crime - Be armed - Fight back!" President, KC3 - GOA - NRA ********************************* A parable for our times: http://www.kc3.org/sheep.htm ********************************* The Kentucky IDPA Studies Group: http://www.electricrain.com/~tyler/IDPASG/index.shtml -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Seven Deadly Sins (fwd) Date: 15 Sep 2001 10:23:24 -0700 In fact, no free society has WON over a terrorist movement that had wide-spread support. The IRA is 300 guys with very few resources, and half the British Army can't prevent them from planting bombs at will. Despite Britain having suspended civil liberties-- torture, killings, imprisonment without trial. The Northern Ireland terrorist problem is a remnant of the British Empire. Sri Lanka ditto. All the existing terrorist movements are 'liberation' movements of some kind. We can expect them in China, various parts of the ex-Soviet Union, ... Our problem with the Islamic world is that we have been mucking around trying to control their world for a long time. We overthrew ?? and installed the Shah, reaped an Islamic fundamentalist whirlwind. We helped Afghanistan, trained Bin Laden. Continuing support for Israel, whose actions match those of South Africa. (My wife and son are Jewish, FYI). Embargo against Iraq that the UN says is killing 10,000 women, children, old people each month via mal-nutrition and lack of medicine. (Every Moslem knows those numbers very well, no matter how you and I may suspect them.) The list of our 'end justifies the means' actions is very long. These actions have resulted in a more screwed up situation in the world. Of course, we know that is the effect of large, out-of-control government. The idea that we can see enough moves ahead in the game of foreign policy to have ANY idea what to do next is delusional. Everything in these systems is attached to everything else, there are far more side-effects than anyone can think of, most negative. The solution to the United State's problem is easy: Get out of the empire business. Switzerland doesn't have a terrorism problem, and is simultaneously the richest per-capita company in the world. It is greatly in our self-interest to get out from under our Empire. No Empire has survived, and most of the nations who tried it have died also. We could Restore Our Constitution, if we did so. Empire is far outside of the Constitutional boundaries. Retaliation that involves killing women and children or innocent civilians is far outside of my ethical/moral boundaries. As a purely practical matter, such actions perpetuate the cycle and make genuine, long-term peace less likely. Without genuine, long-term peace our social, political and economic future is stunted. In the year 2001, World War I is killing more people than died in the trenchs at the height of the war itself. These people die because the economy didn't develop, because scientists were killed in the war, and technology of all kinds was slowed down by 40 years as a result. Including medical technology. Lew -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 9:09 AM Lord Mountbatten--"...For in the last resort, civilization stands or falls not by covenants, but by the sword..." "The Seven Deadly Sins of Terrorism: Lord Mountbatten Didn't Die For Your Sins" written by Paul Johnson (British journalist; former editor of the New Statesman) The unedited version can be found in the New Republic, September 15, 1979, page 19-21. Most of you will recall that Mountbatten, (related to the Queen of England and was also a British Lord), was assassinated in a terrorist attack carriedout by the Provisional IRA. --------------- "The Seven Deadly Sins of Terrorism: Lord Mountbatten Didn't Die For Your Sins" by Paul Johnson (edited) September 15, 1979 The wrong approach to terrorism is to see it as one of many symptoms of a deep-seated malaise in our society . . . . This analysis usually ends in the meaningless and defeatist conclusion that society itself is to blame: 'We are all guilty.' International terrorism is not part of a general human problem. It is a specific and identifiable problem on its own. . . . It is a remediable problem. To say it is remediable is not to underestimate the size and danger of the problem. On the contrary: it is almost impossible to exaggerate the threat that terrorism poses for our civilization. . . . One reason why it constitutes such a grave and growing threat is that very few people in the civilized world--governments and parliaments, TV and newspapers, the public generally--take terrorism seriously enough. Most people, lacking an adequate knowledge of history, tend to underestimate the fragility of a civilization. They do not appreciate that civilizations fall as well as rise. . . . There was a common factor in all these great [falls]. They occurred when the spread of metals technology and the availability of raw materials enabled the forces of barbarism to equal or surpass the civilized powers in the quality and quantity of their weapons. For in the last resort, civilization stands or falls not by covenants, but by the sword. . . . Menacing improvements in terrorism have been brought about by the international availability of terrorist support, supply, and training services. Terrorism is no longer a purely national phenomenon, which can be destroyed at the national level. It is an international offensive--an open and declared war against civilization itself--which can only be defeated by an active alliance of the civilized powers. The impact ofterrorism . . . is intrinsically evil . . . for a number of . . . reasons--what I call the seven deadly sins of terrorism. First - Terrorism is the deliberate and cold-blooded exaltation of violence over all forms of political activity. The modern terrorist employs violence not as a necessary evil, but as a desirable form of action. The Second deadly sin is the deliberate suppression of the moral instincts in man. Terrorist organizers have found that it is not enough to give their recruits intellectual justifications for murder: indeed the abandonment of any system of moral criteria becomes an essential element in its training. (Recruits are made to experience and participate in moral depravity like murder or rape because they cannot be expected to be an effective terrorist as long as they retain moral elements of a human personality.) Third is the rejection of politics as the normal means by which communities resolve conflicts. To terrorists, violence is a substitute for the entire political process. [Which explains the difference between Bin Laden and Arafat and Sinn Fein, which used terrorism as a bargaining chip to gain themselves a place in the political process, but now that they are at the table, want to participate in the political process.] The Fourth Deadly Sin is that it necessarily and actively assists the spread of the totalitarian state. Countries that finance and support terrorism are without exception despotic states. Fifth, international terrorism poses no threat to the totalitarian state. That kind of state can always defend itself by judicial murder, preventive arrest, torture of prisoners and suspects, and complete censorship of terrorist activities. Terrorism can only get a foothold in a state where the executive is under some kind of restraint, legal, democratic, and moral. Sixth is that terrorism exploits the apparatus of freedom in liberal societies, and thereby endangers it. In meeting the threat of terrorism, a free society must arm itself, but that process of arming itself threatens the freedoms, decencies and standards that make the society civilized, because of the emergency actions that must be taken. These actions may threaten those freedoms. The Seventh deadly sin is that if a free society reacts to terrorism by invoking authoritarian methods, it damages itself. But even worse, if free societies in their anxiety to avoid authoritarian excesses, FAIL to arm themselves against the terrorist threat, then the terrorists triumph. The seventh and deadliest sin is that terrorism can sap the will of a civilized society to defend itself. We have seen it happen. We find governments negotiating with terrorists . . . to concede to their demands. We find governments providing ransom money . . . releasing convicted criminals in response to demands . . . conceding them the status of political prisoners. . .. We find newspapers and TV networks placing democratic governments and the terrorists on a level of moral equality. We find governments failing time and again, in their duty to persuade the public that terrorists are not misguided politicians. They are criminals. They are extraordinary criminals, indeed, in that they pose a threat not merely to the individuals they murder without compunction, but to the whole fabric of society. In short, the seventh and deadliest sin of terrorism is its attempt to induce civilization to commit suicide. ----------------------- Charles Riggs - Gunsite 1991 - DVC! "Fight Crime - Be armed - Fight back!" President, KC3 - GOA - NRA ********************************* A parable for our times: http://www.kc3.org/sheep.htm ********************************* The Kentucky IDPA Studies Group: http://www.electricrain.com/~tyler/IDPASG/index.shtml -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: From an Afghani in the US - good think piece (fwd) Date: 16 Sep 2001 10:20:07 -0700 Food for thought for the Militarists Written by an Afghani in the U.S. I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age." Ron Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done." And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing. I speak as one who deeply hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. My hatred comes from first hand experience. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters. But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden,think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country. Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban. We come now to the question of "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age". Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that. New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs would not really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time. So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West. And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the West would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Unfortunately, Bin Laden does. Anyone else? In Peace, Tamim Ansary Charles Riggs - Gunsite 1991 - DVC! "Fight Crime - Be armed - Fight back!" President, KC3 - GOA - NRA ********************************* A parable for our times: http://www.kc3.org/sheep.htm ********************************* The Kentucky IDPA Studies Group: http://www.electricrain.com/~tyler/IDPASG/index.shtml -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Sylvester Subject: Re: roc-digest V2 #465 Date: 16 Sep 2001 16:07:49 -0500 At 11:08 AM 9/16/2001 -0600, roc-digest wrote: >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:46:06 -0700 >From: "Lew Glendenning" >Subject: RE: Go get them! (fwd) > >BS. > >This approach would make all of us feel real good (well, except for >lingering regret for all the women and children and other civilians who will >be killed in our 'surgical' strikes). The civilians you are worried about are already evacuating Kabul. >However, it won't do anything for the terrorism problem, and will likely >make it worse. >These terrorists have raised the art to an entirely new level: they are >going after economic infrastructure, not just political targets. They >started using technological and economic thinking, not acting like >poly-sci/sociology/psych majors building simple bombs to make simple >political statements. > >The western world is balanced on a tall needle of technology and >techno-infrastructure. Any idiot can kick it over with minimal effort: any >engineer can give you a dozen ways that 20 guys can cost us 20% of the >economy's output for at least 3 months each. > >Some guy out of the Monterey Naval Graduate School wrote papers on this, >said he could put the US into a long-term recession for $20M (memory here), >20 people and make $1B while he was doing it. > >Osama Bin Laden should have made a lot of money trading stocks yesterday, >having had advance knowledge of what stocks were going to have problems. Reports indicate that he apparently did just that. Call it a form of collateral damage of his chosen form of strike. >We can avoid a war on/with terrorism. Go back to the Constitution: >abrogate all of our mutual defense treaties, withdraw from the UN, bring all >the troops home, defend our borders, announce free and open trade, lower >taxes to the best in the world. We will continue to be the world leader as >we are now, but without any of the burdens of Empire. Sorry but the war is already begun, and we did not begin it. Otherwise I like your ideas. >Nobody has ever won one, not where the terrorists have reasonable community >support. Nobody has ever tried to win one like this one, because there has not been one like this. It's not some group with "community support", its a network of groups in many countries. While they may have support of the local thugs in government, not a one of them exists in anything like a free country. The exception to that being the really small groups in Europe, Ireland and Japan, which can hardly be said to have community support in those countries either. >We are in much more danger from our own out-of-control gov than we are from >foreign Terrorists. Indeed, our foreign terrorism problem is entirely due >to the prior actions of our out-of-control government. More 'solutions' by >our gov is certainly not the answer. But we can't set the clock back, what's done is done, and we go forward from where we are. Your suggestions certainly have much merit, and most should indeed be adopted. However they will not solve the current problem. We replaced the old Articles of Confederation mainly because the national government it created was not strong enough or independent enough to perform the tasks that need to be performed at a national level. The very first of those is to provide for the common defense. We must not throw out that baby with the bathwater, but rather insist upon a return to a federal government that acts only within its charter, which is the Constitution. There is a theory that the Barbary pirates helped lead to the replacement of the Articles by the Constitution, by demonstrating this weakness. Given the proper tools, including the USS Constitution, which was ordered once the Constitution was passed. see: http://www.geocities.com/freewalt5/barb_paphtml.html and http://www.history.navy.mil/biblio/biblio4/biblio4a.htm Given the proper tools by the Federalist government of President Adams, and the proper powers by the Constitution, President Jefferson knew what to do concerning the Barbary Pirates, starting in 1801, And he did it, sending in that very same USS Constitution was in to handle those pirates. Pirates is not quite the correct term for what are often called the Barbary Corsairs, since they, like bin Laden, had the support of and where somewhat integrated with such govenment that existed in the region, Tripoli for example. http://www.stephendecatur.net/ The whole situtation with the states and quasi state entities along the northern coast of Africa back at the turn of the 19 th Century is not a bad analog of the one we find ourselves in today. This is the way that one ended and it did indeed take a long time, starting under Jefferson, ending under Madison (with the distraction of the war of 1812 in between) ("He" is Stephen Decatur): from http://www.stephendecatur.net/ He arrived off Algiers on 28 June, 1815, where peace was concluded on terms very favorable to the United States. It was stipulated that the United States should never pay tribute to the dey of Algiers, and all Christian captives were to be released. This treaty and the demands of Decatur gave the deathblow to that cruel system which for centuries, to the shame of Christendom, had elevated the Barbary powers into baneful importance. Decatur next went to Tunis and demanded indemnity from the bey for violating treaty stipulations, which demand was conceded. He then made a similar demand on the pacha of Tripoli, and for the release of Neapolitan and Danish prisoners, all of which was granted, thus ending forever the pretensions of the Barbary powers. Even Jefferson knew how to handle threats from stateless pirates. He sent in the Navy to take out the Barbary pirates. >Lew Glendenning The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. --Doug McKay" Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! Molon Labe! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: roc-digest V2 #465 Date: 16 Sep 2001 15:10:17 -0700 Good analogy. And indeed, all of our arguments about anything use analogy of one form or other. Nevertheless, no analogy is exact. The Barbary pirates indeed threatened international trade. They were primitive, negative-sum government, a protection racket. They did not threaten the US proper, tho they were a threat to citizens while traveling. It was proper to eliminate the threat to both commerce and citizens of all nations. In that case, nothing but military force would have worked. In that case, the win was large relative to the potential loss. The facts of the current situation are that we cannot prevent terrorist attacks that can cut the economic output of the US in half for a period of 6 months. 20 guys, 2 successive mornings, make a billion $ while you do it. And their scenarios didn't include suicide bombers. Remember Chernobyl? Ready to lose a few states, millions of casulties? Sure. We can prevent any particular calamity, although at increasing cost as we include more and more of them. However, to defend against terrorism is to bet against human ingenuity. Ingenuity driven by genuine hate, and not un-reasonable hate, given our 'end-justifies-the-means' behavior as an Empire. Balanced against our potential future losses, what are we going to WIN with a WAR on terrorism? I am not arguing against persecuting Bin Laden. Go after him as an international criminal. Law enforcement exercise, not a military exercise. Track down the money, all the collaborators, etc. Prosecute, any way you want, with full respect for everyone's human rights. Meanwhile, declare THEM victorious, the dissolution of our Empire, and bring all the troops home. End the mutual defense treaties, retreat to the Constitution. Defend our shores. Cut taxes, and win economically. That gives us a chance of winning in the only arena that matters, our economic/social/political future. The other paths decrease the probability that we have a Constitution to defend, an economy to worry about, ... To reiterate the context: next time a loved one is sick or dies, realize that it is a direct result of prior gov actions, e.g. WWI. That 'remedy', along with the 'fixes' to our banking system and the 'improvements' to international trade embodied in the Smoot-Hawley tarrifs, caused Hitler, and the next 'remedy' was WWII. These two actions killed the economy for 40 years, and a lot of the scientists and engineers that would have produced the technical/medical/economic progress that would have resulted in cures for most of the diseases that kill us. (You do not doubt we will gain that much in the next 40 years!) Declaring a war, an un-winnable war, is giving up another ?? years of progress in all of these areas. The 20th century has been a cascade of ever-larger government fixes for problems caused by the previous government fixes. It is time to stop the cascade. It is time to go back to the Constitution. Lew Glendenning -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Joe Sylvester Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 2:08 PM At 11:08 AM 9/16/2001 -0600, roc-digest wrote: >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:46:06 -0700 >From: "Lew Glendenning" >Subject: RE: Go get them! (fwd) > >BS. > >This approach would make all of us feel real good (well, except for >lingering regret for all the women and children and other civilians who will >be killed in our 'surgical' strikes). The civilians you are worried about are already evacuating Kabul. Except for the ones so poor they can't. The widows, maimed orphans that are the result of 20 years of warfare, first the Soviets and then the Taliban. >However, it won't do anything for the terrorism problem, and will likely >make it worse. >These terrorists have raised the art to an entirely new level: they are >going after economic infrastructure, not just political targets. They >started using technological and economic thinking, not acting like >poly-sci/sociology/psych majors building simple bombs to make simple >political statements. > >The western world is balanced on a tall needle of technology and >techno-infrastructure. Any idiot can kick it over with minimal effort: any >engineer can give you a dozen ways that 20 guys can cost us 20% of the >economy's output for at least 3 months each. > >Some guy out of the Monterey Naval Graduate School wrote papers on this, >said he could put the US into a long-term recession for $20M (memory here), >20 people and make $1B while he was doing it. > >Osama Bin Laden should have made a lot of money trading stocks yesterday, >having had advance knowledge of what stocks were going to have problems. Reports indicate that he apparently did just that. Call it a form of collateral damage of his chosen form of strike. >We can avoid a war on/with terrorism. Go back to the Constitution: >abrogate all of our mutual defense treaties, withdraw from the UN, bring all >the troops home, defend our borders, announce free and open trade, lower >taxes to the best in the world. We will continue to be the world leader as >we are now, but without any of the burdens of Empire. Sorry but the war is already begun, and we did not begin it. Otherwise I like your ideas. >Nobody has ever won one, not where the terrorists have reasonable community >support. Nobody has ever tried to win one like this one, because there has not been one like this. It's not some group with "community support", its a network of groups in many countries. While they may have support of the local thugs in government, not a one of them exists in anything like a free country. The exception to that being the really small groups in Europe, Ireland and Japan, which can hardly be said to have community support in those countries either. >We are in much more danger from our own out-of-control gov than we are from >foreign Terrorists. Indeed, our foreign terrorism problem is entirely due >to the prior actions of our out-of-control government. More 'solutions' by >our gov is certainly not the answer. But we can't set the clock back, what's done is done, and we go forward from where we are. Your suggestions certainly have much merit, and most should indeed be adopted. However they will not solve the current problem. We replaced the old Articles of Confederation mainly because the national government it created was not strong enough or independent enough to perform the tasks that need to be performed at a national level. The very first of those is to provide for the common defense. We must not throw out that baby with the bathwater, but rather insist upon a return to a federal government that acts only within its charter, which is the Constitution. There is a theory that the Barbary pirates helped lead to the replacement of the Articles by the Constitution, by demonstrating this weakness. Given the proper tools, including the USS Constitution, which was ordered once the Constitution was passed. see: http://www.geocities.com/freewalt5/barb_paphtml.html and http://www.history.navy.mil/biblio/biblio4/biblio4a.htm Given the proper tools by the Federalist government of President Adams, and the proper powers by the Constitution, President Jefferson knew what to do concerning the Barbary Pirates, starting in 1801, And he did it, sending in that very same USS Constitution was in to handle those pirates. Pirates is not quite the correct term for what are often called the Barbary Corsairs, since they, like bin Laden, had the support of and where somewhat integrated with such govenment that existed in the region, Tripoli for example. http://www.stephendecatur.net/ The whole situtation with the states and quasi state entities along the northern coast of Africa back at the turn of the 19 th Century is not a bad analog of the one we find ourselves in today. This is the way that one ended and it did indeed take a long time, starting under Jefferson, ending under Madison (with the distraction of the war of 1812 in between) ("He" is Stephen Decatur): from http://www.stephendecatur.net/ He arrived off Algiers on 28 June, 1815, where peace was concluded on terms very favorable to the United States. It was stipulated that the United States should never pay tribute to the dey of Algiers, and all Christian captives were to be released. This treaty and the demands of Decatur gave the deathblow to that cruel system which for centuries, to the shame of Christendom, had elevated the Barbary powers into baneful importance. Decatur next went to Tunis and demanded indemnity from the bey for violating treaty stipulations, which demand was conceded. He then made a similar demand on the pacha of Tripoli, and for the release of Neapolitan and Danish prisoners, all of which was granted, thus ending forever the pretensions of the Barbary powers. Even Jefferson knew how to handle threats from stateless pirates. He sent in the Navy to take out the Barbary pirates. >Lew Glendenning The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. --Doug McKay" Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! Molon Labe! - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: Sobran's recent column, etc. Date: 16 Sep 2001 15:20:20 -0700 http://www.sobran.com/columns/ He says it better than I do. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: Arming cockpit crews (fwd) Date: 16 Sep 2001 18:55:54 -0700 Organization: Second Amendment Coalition of FLA (SACFLA) Ok, guys lets see if we can help this pilot!> Greg Webster wrote: > > George, > > Greg Webster here...I took an NRA Instructor course from you a little > over a year ago. I don't know if you remember but I'm a pilot with > American Airlines. The reason I'm writing to you is, I need your help. > After the attacks on New York and Washington, I've been very active in > trying to force my union to pressure the FAA to authorize our cockpit > crews to carry weapons. Momentum is building, some of the folks in the > FAA are starting to listen, even some support on Capitol Hill, but my > request of you is can you utilize all of your people to increase the > flow of mail and phone calls to our Congressional Reps and Senators to > turn the heat up? There is a window of opportunity here, even Peter > Jennings liberal ass seemed to support the idea of arming pilots. The > following is an excerpt of what I've been sending out feel to use any > part of statement or modify it as you see fit: > > > > ABC News ran a story last night about the inadequacies of cockpit > security among U.S. Airlines. Several inadequacies were discussed, > among them were cockpit access, how little protection the cockpit door > actually provides and the fact that U.S. Airline Pilots are unarmed. I > was quite suprised to see this topic dealt with in the media. ABC > stated that the Pilots of El Al and "other" foreign carriers require > that their Pilots are equipped with sidearms, mentioning that these > carriers operate on a war footing. After what may turn out to be the > single most bloodiest day in American history, perhaps we need to > operate on a war footing as well. I am licensed by the State of > Florida to carry a concealed firearm, this is for my own personal > protection. Why don't you insure I have this ability to protect not > only myself but to prevent my aircraft from falling into enemy hands > potentially protecting thousands of American lives. We, the Pilots of > American Airlines should have the ability to arm ourselves, this > statement may have seemed a bit over the edge on Monday Sept. 10, 2001 > but today I believe many American families wish our crews had been > armed, thousands of lives would have been spared. It's your > responsibility to make this lifesaving safeguard a reality. > > > > Thanks for whatever you support you are able to muster for this cause. > > Greg Webster -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: Holy War: Mr. President, are You on Our Side? (fwd) Date: 16 Sep 2001 23:51:41 -0700 Maybe if a whole lot of folks sent him this one, and to our Congress Critters, too..... Dear Mr. Bush and fellow Americans: People all over the country are being asked to offer words of support to our president, and shows of unity. I offer this, in support of all Americans. This is our wake-up call. The vast bulk of our government has been far too busy terrorizing our own sovereign people to pay attention to what it is supposed to be doing, which is ensuring our national security. It has instead created national insecurity, both within and from without. Now we are being asked for our support, while fools and media talk of a police state (as if that would offer us any "safety" from terrorists). Certainly I don't think anyone in this country fails to see that cohesiveness is needed. So, here is my suggestion to our government: BACK OFF AND START DOING YOUR REAL JOB. Now, please. We American sovereigns will do our part; I have observed that there have not even been any reports of looting yet, instead many heroic efforts by so many people. Perhaps this was a harsh dose of reality. So, do you want the support of families? Then stop (STOP NOW) paying DSS to steal them from parents without cause. Give back the children of America to their own families. Now. Stop forcing the drugging of schoolchildren. Right now. Want the support of farmers? Stop destroying them, leave them alone to get back to the vital job of feeding our people. Stop harassing them over made-up "environmental" issues which all intelligent people> recognize as false excuses for more controls. Give them back their> water and grazing rights. Now. Want the support of free people? Stop incarcerating and criminalizing people for non-crimes. Those who commit real crimes are so often released (when they should not be) to reoffend against innocent people, yet ironically the jails are filled with people against whom no citizen has even offered a complaint. Start turning over the incriminating documents, and prosecuting acts of treason committed by officials. Now. Want patriotism? Stop persecuting patriots. Now. Tell the whiners and frightened rabbits who are thinking that a police state can "protect" them to shut up and get with the program. Apologize (sincerely - we can tell the difference) for Waco, Ruby Ridge, and all of the recent similar events which should shock people more than any outside terrorist attack. Now, please; it is long overdue. While you are at it, prosecute all who were in any way responsible for those terrorist attacks, too. Want a secure nation and support for the military? Tell the mindless gun control freaks that their party is over. Give us all of our guaranteed rights back, now. Get our military (and our homeland) back out from under foreign U.N. control. Right now. Want the financial support of Americans? Stop the wholesale government agency confiscation of land and property. Give it back. Now. While you are at it, give back our public lands which the federal government cannot even lawfully "own". We would be impressed. A people who truly have no private property have nothing left which they want to give you. Want to see enthusiasm and cohesive support? Want us to demand justice for the crime of terrorism that was committed? Then give us back our due process, lawful courts, and constitutional rights. Reinstate justice in our own courts, right here in America. Why should we be outraged at what happened, when many of us have had things just as life-shattering happen to us already at the hands of such entities as the family courts? In short, sir, give us back the kind of government our country is supposed to have, and we will give you support the likes of which you have never dreamed. We Americans love our country and our countrymen, no matter how persistent the divisive elements have been in trying to change these facts. We have all been issued a challenge. Our question is, are you on our side? Lorri Ellen Carr, sui juris all rights reserved, without prejudice > state of Washington JAILer > jail4judges@mindspring.com -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: Chechnya is the precedent Date: 17 Sep 2001 09:33:41 -0700 http://www.nj.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/cgi-free/getstory_ssf.cgi?a0615_BC_Ru ssia-Chechnya&&news&newsflash-international The Russians have done all they can to sterilize this country. Small country, not much outside help, ... The result is they lose about 20 people a week. They 'won' the war some time ago. Any idea that we are going to 'win' by putting ground troops somewhere is insane. Meanwhile, the assault on civil liberties/human rights here at home continues. That is the danger, not Moslem terrorists. Chuckie Schumer's people are responsible for the WTC catastrophe. Restore our Civil Rights and avoid these problems in the future. Lew - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kenneth Mitchell" Subject: Nice montage of WTC photos Date: 17 Sep 2001 17:36:28 -0700 http://www.ragz-international.com/god_bless_america2.htm Ken Mitchell Citrus Heights, CA ken@creativemindssacramento.com 916-955-9152 (voice) 916-729-0966 (fax) ----------------http://www.creativemindssacramento.com------------- "Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein hailed the attack on the Pentagon and World Trade Center Tuesday as the Operation of the Century. He has forgotten that the Bush family's favorite game is Iraqi Bingo. The only number they ever call is B-52. " Comedian Argus Hamilton The Heroes of United Flight 93 Jeremy Glick told his wife to have a good life, and to take care of their baby. Thomas Burnett, who made replacement heart valves, called his wife to tell her that he loved her. Mark Bingham was a passenger. Todd Beamer used the AirPhone to report the hijacking, and then called "Let's roll!" as these four heroes attacked the hijackers who were on their way to..... an empty field in Pennsylvania. They were the first four heroes of the war. Let their names live in honor! http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010916phonecallnat3p3.asp http://opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=95001147 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: AIRLINE SECURITY: Brazil Parliament Votes To Allow Air (fwd) Date: 18 Sep 2001 11:29:59 -0700 I'm not sure what sort of addresses got snipped, unless maybe, there was = a long list of them, but this is something that can be verified through the braz= ilian news. Anyone speak/read/write Portuguese? Passengers To Carry Light Firearms Sent FYI. This is more than interesting. Maybe it should happen=20 here.//////////////// >(Snip addresses) > >What the Brazilian Parliament has done (see below) is the very type of >immediate action that 'We the People' should demand of President Bush, a= nd >what the FAA, DOT and the Department of Justice should have allowed in t= his >Nation a long time ago. But even more appropriately, it should be the >airline pilot crewmembers themselves who should be armed and trained in = the >use of small arms aboard ALL domestic and international flights. Had the >pilots aboard the two American Airlines and United Airlines 757's and 76= 7's >been armed, the outcome of events on September 11, 2001 would be entirel= y >different, and we would not now be witness to draconian intrusions into = our >civil liberties being undertaken in this so-called 'War on Terrorism." P= ass >this information to Attorney General John Ashcroft, Secretary of >Transportation Norman Mineta, FAA Administrator Jane Garvey, and the >American news media organizations and DEMAND that U.S. Government offici= als >take these immediate steps for future security of the airlines and their >passengers. Enforcing the Second Amendment to the Constitution for the >United States of America (1787) will ensure that the rest of the covenan= ts >therein will be obeyed and respected. > > >http://www.sierratimes.com/archive/files/sep/17/arbz091701.htm > >Brazil Parliament Votes To Allow Air Passengers To Carry Light Firearms > From Thomas Buyea ranger116@webtv.net > From Tom=E1s Mano de Carvalho Alliance >Nacional do Brasil 09.15.01 >---- > >RIO DE JANEIRO - To avoid that an aircraft is used as bomb against >important buildings, the Brazilian parlament decided today to liberate >light weapons (calibre less than 0.38) for all passengers over 21 years = old. > >As 65% of all Brazilians with income more than US$ 2000 always walks >equipped with gun, the government finds it safe and guaranteed that >sufficient persons will react against any eventual highjackings. > >Extra information will be distributed and presented by the air hostess. >When they show the safety equipment they will also inform the passengers= to >prepare eventual shot with precision, always take aim at chest to avoid >that bullets perforate the shell of the aircraft. > >The president, Fernando Henrique Cardoso, wanted to make his veto agains= t >the proposal, but was rejected by the astounding majority of 234 against= 6 >votes. > >Pass this information to American news-agencies to lighten a new angle i= n >perspective of criminality. --=20 --- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RK= BA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+------------------= --- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath n= o weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand =3D Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy= a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Chr= ist ----------------+----------+--------------------------+------------------= --- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! --- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: UN E-mail addresses. (fwd) Date: 18 Sep 2001 11:31:03 -0700 Might be useful if some nation decides to balk at assisting us in solving the coward problem in afgahanistan. CWSIV Afghanistan afghanistan@un.int Albania albania@un.int Algeria algeria@un.int Andorra andorra@un.int Angola angola@un.int Antigua and Barbuda antigua@un.int Argentina argentina@un.int Armenia armenia@un.int Australia australia@un.int Austria austria@un.int Azerbaijan azerbaijan@un.int The Bahamas bahamas@un.int Bahrain bahrain@un.int Bangladesh bangladesh@un.int Barbados barbados@un.int Belarus belarus@un.int Belgium belgium@un.int Belize belize@un.int Benin benin@un.int Bhutan bhutan@un.int Bolivia bolivia@un.int Bosnia and Herzegovina bosnia@un.int Botswana botswana@un.int Brazil braun@delbrasonu.org Brunei Darussalam brunei@un.int Bulgaria bulgaria@un.int Burkina Faso burkinafaso@un.int Burundi burundi@un.int Cambodia cambodia@un.int Cameroon cameroon@un.int Canada canada@un.int Cape Verde capeverde@un.int The Central African Republic caf@un.int Chad chad@un.int Chile chile@un.int China china@un.int Colombia colombia@un.int Comoros comoros@un.int Congo congo@un.int Costa Rica costarica@un.int Cote d'Ivoire ivorycoast@un.int Croatia croatia@un.int Cuba cuba@un.int Cyprus cyprus@un.int The Czech Republic czechrepublic@un.int The Democratic Republic of Congo drcongo@un.int Denmark denmark@un.int Djibouti djibouti@nyct.net Dominica dominica@un.int The Dominican Republic dr@un.int Ecuador ecuador@un.int Egypt egypt@un.int El Salvador elsalvador@un.int Equatorial Guinea eqguinea@un.int Eritrea eritrea@un.int Estonia estonia@un.int Ethiopia ethiopia@un.int Fiji fiji@un.int Finland finland@un.int France france@un.int Gabon gabon@un.int Gambia gambia@un.int Georgia georgia@un.int Germany germany@un.int Ghana ghana@un.int Greece greece@un.int Grenada grenada@un.int Guatemala guatemala@un.int Guinea guinea@un.int Guinea-Bissau guinea-bissau@un.int Guyana guyana@un.int Haiti haiti@un.int Honduras honduras@un.int Hungary hungary@un.int Iceland iceland@un.int India india@un.int Indonesia indonesia@un.int Iran iran@un.int Iraq iraq@un.int Ireland ireland@un.int Israel israel@un.int Italy italy@un.int Jamaica jamaica@un.int Japan japan@un.int Jordan jordan@un.int Kazakhstan kazakhstan@un.int Kenya kenya@un.int The Dem. People's Republic of Korea dprk@un.int Republic of Korea korea@un.int Kuwait kuwait@un.int Kyrgyzstan kyrgyzstan@un.int Lao P. Dem. Republic laos@un.int Latvia latvia@un.int Lebanon lebanon@un.int Lesotho lesotho@un.int Liberia liberia@un.int Libya libya@un.int Liechtenstein liechtenstein@un.int Lithuania lithuania@un.int Luxembourg luxembourg@un.int The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia macedonia@un.int Madagascar madagascar@un.int Malawi malawi@un.int Malaysia malaysia@un.int Maldives maldives@un.int Mali mali@un.int Malta malta@un.int Marshall Islands marshallislands@un.int Mauritania mauritania@un.int Mauritius mauritius@un.int Mission of Mexico mexico@un.int The Federated States of Micronesia micronesia@un.int Moldova moldova@un.int Monaco monaco@un.int Mongolia mongolia@un.int Morocco morocco@un.int Mozambique mozambique@un.int Myanmar myanmar@un.int Namibia namibia@un.int Nepal nepal@un.int Netherlands netherlands@un.int New Zealand newzealand@un.int Nicaragua nicaragua@un.int Niger niger@un.int Nigeria nigeria@un.int Norway delun@mfa.no Oman oman@un.int Pakistan pakistan@un.int Palau palau@un.int Panama panama@un.int Papua New Guinea png@un.int Paraguay paraguay@un.int Peru peru@un.int Philippines philippines@un.int Poland poland@un.int Portugal portugal@un.int Qatar qatar@un.int Romania romania@un.int Rwanda rwanda@un.int The Russian Federation rusun@un.int Samoa samoa@un.int Marino sanmarino@un.int Sao Tome and Principe stp@un.int Saudi Arabia saudiarabia@un.int Senegal senegal@un.int Seychelles seychelles@un.int Sierra Leone sierraleone@un.int Singapore singapore@un.int Slovakia slovakia@un.int Slovenia slovenia@un.int Solomon Islands solomonislands@un.int Somalia somalia@un.int South Africa southafrica@un.int Spain spain@un.int Sri Lanka srilanka@un.int St. Kitts and Nevis stkn@un.int St. Lucia stlucia@un.int St. Vincent & the Grenadines stvg@un.int Sudan sudan@un.int Suriname suriname@un.int Swaziland swaziland@un.int Sweden sweden@un.int Syrian Arab Republic syria@un.int Tajikistan tajikistan@un.int Thailand thailand@un.int Togo togo@un.int Trinidad and Tobago tto@un.int Tunisia tunisia@un.int Turkey turkey@un.int Turkmenistan turkmenistan@un.int Uganda uganda@un.int Ukraine ukraine@un.int United Arab Emirates uae@un.int United Republic of Tanzania tanzania@un.int The United Kingdom uk@un.int The United States of America usa@un.int Uruguay uruguay@un.int Uzbekistan uzbekistan@un.int Vanuatu vanuatu@un.int Venezuela venezuela@un.int Viet Nam vietnam@un.int Yemen yemen@un.int Yugoslavia yugoslavia@un.int Zambia zambia@un.int Zimbabwe zimbabwe@un.int Observer of the Asian-African Legal Consultative Commitee aalcc@un.int Observer of the Caribbean Community caribcomun@un.int Observer of the International Committee of the Red Cross RedCrossCommittee@un.int Observer of the European Community ec@un.int Observer of the Francophonie francophonie@un.int Observer of the Holy See holysee@un.int Observer of the International Federation of the Red Cross redcross@un.int Observer of the International Labour Organization ilo@un.int Observer of the International Seabed Authority isa@un.int Observer of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea seaun@un.int Observer of the League of Arab States las@un.int Observer of the Organization of African Unity oau@un.int Observer of the Organization of Islamic Conference oic@un.int Observer of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta sm-malta@un.int Observer of Switzerland switzerland@un.int Observer of the Palestinian National Authority palun@undp.org -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kenneth Mitchell" Subject: RE: AIRLINE SECURITY: Brazil Parliament Votes To Allow Air (fwd) Date: 18 Sep 2001 12:48:03 -0700 Nice if true, but there doesn't appear to be any mention of this on any Brazilian web site. Granted, I don't speak Portugese, but AltaVista's "Babel Fish" translations aren't THAT bad.... I suspect this may be a pleasant fantasy. Ken Mitchell Citrus Heights, CA ken@creativemindssacramento.com 916-955-9152 (voice) 916-729-0966 (fax) ----------------http://www.creativemindssacramento.com------------- "Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein hailed the attack on the Pentagon and World Trade Center Tuesday as the Operation of the Century. He has forgotten that the Bush family's favorite game is Iraqi Bingo. The only number they ever call is B-52. " Comedian Argus Hamilton The Heroes of United Flight 93 Jeremy Glick told his wife to have a good life, and to take care of their baby. Thomas Burnett, who made replacement heart valves, called his wife to tell her that he loved her. Mark Bingham was a passenger. Todd Beamer used the AirPhone to report the hijacking, and then called "Let's roll!" as these four heroes attacked the hijackers who were on their way to..... an empty field in Pennsylvania. They were the first four heroes of the war. Let their names live in honor! http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010916phonecallnat3p3.asp http://opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=95001147 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 11:30 AM > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Subject: AIRLINE SECURITY: Brazil Parliament Votes To Allow Air (fwd) > > > I'm not sure what sort of addresses got snipped, unless maybe, > there was a long > list of them, but this is something that can be verified through > the brazilian > news. Anyone speak/read/write Portuguese? > > From: Charles Nawrocki > Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:51:53 -0500 > Subject: AIRLINE SECURITY: Brazil Parliament Votes To Allow Air > Passengers To Carry Light Firearms > > Sent FYI. This is more than interesting. Maybe it should happen > here.//////////////// > > >(Snip addresses) > > > >What the Brazilian Parliament has done (see below) is the very type of > >immediate action that 'We the People' should demand of President > Bush, and > >what the FAA, DOT and the Department of Justice should have > allowed in this > >Nation a long time ago. But even more appropriately, it should be the > >airline pilot crewmembers themselves who should be armed and > trained in the > >use of small arms aboard ALL domestic and international flights. Had the > >pilots aboard the two American Airlines and United Airlines > 757's and 767's > >been armed, the outcome of events on September 11, 2001 would be entirely > >different, and we would not now be witness to draconian > intrusions into our > >civil liberties being undertaken in this so-called 'War on > Terrorism." Pass > >this information to Attorney General John Ashcroft, Secretary of > >Transportation Norman Mineta, FAA Administrator Jane Garvey, and the > >American news media organizations and DEMAND that U.S. > Government officials > >take these immediate steps for future security of the airlines and their > >passengers. Enforcing the Second Amendment to the Constitution for the > >United States of America (1787) will ensure that the rest of the > covenants > >therein will be obeyed and respected. > > > > > >http://www.sierratimes.com/archive/files/sep/17/arbz091701.htm > > > >Brazil Parliament Votes To Allow Air Passengers To Carry Light Firearms > > From Thomas Buyea ranger116@webtv.net > > From Tomás Mano de Carvalho Alliance > >Nacional do Brasil 09.15.01 > >---- > > > >RIO DE JANEIRO - To avoid that an aircraft is used as bomb against > >important buildings, the Brazilian parlament decided today to liberate > >light weapons (calibre less than 0.38) for all passengers over > 21 years old. > > > >As 65% of all Brazilians with income more than US$ 2000 always walks > >equipped with gun, the government finds it safe and guaranteed that > >sufficient persons will react against any eventual highjackings. > > > >Extra information will be distributed and presented by the air hostess. > >When they show the safety equipment they will also inform the > passengers to > >prepare eventual shot with precision, always take aim at chest to avoid > >that bullets perforate the shell of the aircraft. > > > >The president, Fernando Henrique Cardoso, wanted to make his veto against > >the proposal, but was rejected by the astounding majority of 234 > against 6 > >votes. > > > >Pass this information to American news-agencies to lighten a new angle in > >perspective of criminality. > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** > RKBA! > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | > sword.--Jesus Christ > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > > Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > > - > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Cloyes Subject: Re: AIRLINE SECURITY: Brazil Parliament Votes To Allow Air Date: 18 Sep 2001 16:02:06 -0400 Unfortunately this is another hoax.....if only it were true. Tom At 11:29 9/18/01 -0700, you wrote: >I'm not sure what sort of addresses got snipped, unless maybe, there was a= =20 >long >list of them, but this is something that can be verified through the= brazilian >news. Anyone speak/read/write Portuguese? > >From: Charles Nawrocki >Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:51:53 -0500 >Subject: AIRLINE SECURITY: Brazil Parliament Votes To Allow Air > Passengers To Carry Light Firearms > >Sent FYI. This is more than interesting. Maybe it should happen >here.//////////////// > > >(Snip addresses) > > > >What the Brazilian Parliament has done (see below) is the very type of > >immediate action that 'We the People' should demand of President Bush,= and > >what the FAA, DOT and the Department of Justice should have allowed in= this > >Nation a long time ago. But even more appropriately, it should be the > >airline pilot crewmembers themselves who should be armed and trained in= the > >use of small arms aboard ALL domestic and international flights. Had the > >pilots aboard the two American Airlines and United Airlines 757's and= 767's > >been armed, the outcome of events on September 11, 2001 would be entirely > >different, and we would not now be witness to draconian intrusions into= our > >civil liberties being undertaken in this so-called 'War on Terrorism."= Pass > >this information to Attorney General John Ashcroft, Secretary of > >Transportation Norman Mineta, FAA Administrator Jane Garvey, and the > >American news media organizations and DEMAND that U.S. Government= officials > >take these immediate steps for future security of the airlines and their > >passengers. Enforcing the Second Amendment to the Constitution for the > >United States of America (1787) will ensure that the rest of the= covenants > >therein will be obeyed and respected. > > > > > >http://www.sierratimes.com/archive/files/sep/17/arbz091701.htm > > > >Brazil Parliament Votes To Allow Air Passengers To Carry Light Firearms > > From Thomas Buyea ranger116@webtv.net > > From Tom=E1s Mano de Carvalho Alliance > >Nacional do Brasil 09.15.01 > >---- > > > >RIO DE JANEIRO - To avoid that an aircraft is used as bomb against > >important buildings, the Brazilian parlament decided today to liberate > >light weapons (calibre less than 0.38) for all passengers over 21 years= old. > > > >As 65% of all Brazilians with income more than US$ 2000 always walks > >equipped with gun, the government finds it safe and guaranteed that > >sufficient persons will react against any eventual highjackings. > > > >Extra information will be distributed and presented by the air hostess. > >When they show the safety equipment they will also inform the passengers= to > >prepare eventual shot with precision, always take aim at chest to avoid > >that bullets perforate the shell of the aircraft. > > > >The president, Fernando Henrique Cardoso, wanted to make his veto against > >the proposal, but was rejected by the astounding majority of 234 against= 6 > >votes. > > > >Pass this information to American news-agencies to lighten a new angle in > >perspective of criminality. > >-- >---------------------------------------------------------------------------= - >RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** = RKBA! >----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------= - >An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no >weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his >hand =3D Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a >on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus= Christ >----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------= - > > Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------= - > >- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: UN E-mail addresses. (fwd) Date: 18 Sep 2001 17:59:47 -0700 Strange definition of 'coward': Someone willing to die for his religion. Used to call that a 'martyr', perhaps a 'patriot'. Strange definition of 'Restore Our Constitution': Calling for bigger, badder government. Strange approach to restoring soverignity to the US: Using the UN to do our work. Strange indeed are the ways of Empire. Lew Glendenning -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 11:31 AM Might be useful if some nation decides to balk at assisting us in solving the coward problem in afgahanistan. CWSIV Afghanistan afghanistan@un.int Albania albania@un.int Algeria algeria@un.int Andorra andorra@un.int Angola angola@un.int Antigua and Barbuda antigua@un.int Argentina argentina@un.int Armenia armenia@un.int Australia australia@un.int Austria austria@un.int Azerbaijan azerbaijan@un.int The Bahamas bahamas@un.int Bahrain bahrain@un.int Bangladesh bangladesh@un.int Barbados barbados@un.int Belarus belarus@un.int Belgium belgium@un.int Belize belize@un.int Benin benin@un.int Bhutan bhutan@un.int Bolivia bolivia@un.int Bosnia and Herzegovina bosnia@un.int Botswana botswana@un.int Brazil braun@delbrasonu.org Brunei Darussalam brunei@un.int Bulgaria bulgaria@un.int Burkina Faso burkinafaso@un.int Burundi burundi@un.int Cambodia cambodia@un.int Cameroon cameroon@un.int Canada canada@un.int Cape Verde capeverde@un.int The Central African Republic caf@un.int Chad chad@un.int Chile chile@un.int China china@un.int Colombia colombia@un.int Comoros comoros@un.int Congo congo@un.int Costa Rica costarica@un.int Cote d'Ivoire ivorycoast@un.int Croatia croatia@un.int Cuba cuba@un.int Cyprus cyprus@un.int The Czech Republic czechrepublic@un.int The Democratic Republic of Congo drcongo@un.int Denmark denmark@un.int Djibouti djibouti@nyct.net Dominica dominica@un.int The Dominican Republic dr@un.int Ecuador ecuador@un.int Egypt egypt@un.int El Salvador elsalvador@un.int Equatorial Guinea eqguinea@un.int Eritrea eritrea@un.int Estonia estonia@un.int Ethiopia ethiopia@un.int Fiji fiji@un.int Finland finland@un.int France france@un.int Gabon gabon@un.int Gambia gambia@un.int Georgia georgia@un.int Germany germany@un.int Ghana ghana@un.int Greece greece@un.int Grenada grenada@un.int Guatemala guatemala@un.int Guinea guinea@un.int Guinea-Bissau guinea-bissau@un.int Guyana guyana@un.int Haiti haiti@un.int Honduras honduras@un.int Hungary hungary@un.int Iceland iceland@un.int India india@un.int Indonesia indonesia@un.int Iran iran@un.int Iraq iraq@un.int Ireland ireland@un.int Israel israel@un.int Italy italy@un.int Jamaica jamaica@un.int Japan japan@un.int Jordan jordan@un.int Kazakhstan kazakhstan@un.int Kenya kenya@un.int The Dem. People's Republic of Korea dprk@un.int Republic of Korea korea@un.int Kuwait kuwait@un.int Kyrgyzstan kyrgyzstan@un.int Lao P. Dem. Republic laos@un.int Latvia latvia@un.int Lebanon lebanon@un.int Lesotho lesotho@un.int Liberia liberia@un.int Libya libya@un.int Liechtenstein liechtenstein@un.int Lithuania lithuania@un.int Luxembourg luxembourg@un.int The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia macedonia@un.int Madagascar madagascar@un.int Malawi malawi@un.int Malaysia malaysia@un.int Maldives maldives@un.int Mali mali@un.int Malta malta@un.int Marshall Islands marshallislands@un.int Mauritania mauritania@un.int Mauritius mauritius@un.int Mission of Mexico mexico@un.int The Federated States of Micronesia micronesia@un.int Moldova moldova@un.int Monaco monaco@un.int Mongolia mongolia@un.int Morocco morocco@un.int Mozambique mozambique@un.int Myanmar myanmar@un.int Namibia namibia@un.int Nepal nepal@un.int Netherlands netherlands@un.int New Zealand newzealand@un.int Nicaragua nicaragua@un.int Niger niger@un.int Nigeria nigeria@un.int Norway delun@mfa.no Oman oman@un.int Pakistan pakistan@un.int Palau palau@un.int Panama panama@un.int Papua New Guinea png@un.int Paraguay paraguay@un.int Peru peru@un.int Philippines philippines@un.int Poland poland@un.int Portugal portugal@un.int Qatar qatar@un.int Romania romania@un.int Rwanda rwanda@un.int The Russian Federation rusun@un.int Samoa samoa@un.int Marino sanmarino@un.int Sao Tome and Principe stp@un.int Saudi Arabia saudiarabia@un.int Senegal senegal@un.int Seychelles seychelles@un.int Sierra Leone sierraleone@un.int Singapore singapore@un.int Slovakia slovakia@un.int Slovenia slovenia@un.int Solomon Islands solomonislands@un.int Somalia somalia@un.int South Africa southafrica@un.int Spain spain@un.int Sri Lanka srilanka@un.int St. Kitts and Nevis stkn@un.int St. Lucia stlucia@un.int St. Vincent & the Grenadines stvg@un.int Sudan sudan@un.int Suriname suriname@un.int Swaziland swaziland@un.int Sweden sweden@un.int Syrian Arab Republic syria@un.int Tajikistan tajikistan@un.int Thailand thailand@un.int Togo togo@un.int Trinidad and Tobago tto@un.int Tunisia tunisia@un.int Turkey turkey@un.int Turkmenistan turkmenistan@un.int Uganda uganda@un.int Ukraine ukraine@un.int United Arab Emirates uae@un.int United Republic of Tanzania tanzania@un.int The United Kingdom uk@un.int The United States of America usa@un.int Uruguay uruguay@un.int Uzbekistan uzbekistan@un.int Vanuatu vanuatu@un.int Venezuela venezuela@un.int Viet Nam vietnam@un.int Yemen yemen@un.int Yugoslavia yugoslavia@un.int Zambia zambia@un.int Zimbabwe zimbabwe@un.int Observer of the Asian-African Legal Consultative Commitee aalcc@un.int Observer of the Caribbean Community caribcomun@un.int Observer of the International Committee of the Red Cross RedCrossCommittee@un.int Observer of the European Community ec@un.int Observer of the Francophonie francophonie@un.int Observer of the Holy See holysee@un.int Observer of the International Federation of the Red Cross redcross@un.int Observer of the International Labour Organization ilo@un.int Observer of the International Seabed Authority isa@un.int Observer of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea seaun@un.int Observer of the League of Arab States las@un.int Observer of the Organization of African Unity oau@un.int Observer of the Organization of Islamic Conference oic@un.int Observer of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta sm-malta@un.int Observer of Switzerland switzerland@un.int Observer of the Palestinian National Authority palun@undp.org -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: Alternate Invasion plan Date: 18 Sep 2001 18:50:09 -0700 I received this from a friend. An Alternate Invasion Plan If we are to pull off an invasion into Afghanistan that will have a lasting impact, we may need to use some special forces from President Clinton's era. First step, Congress must pass a law rescinding Clinton's 1995 "Clean Hands" Act that throttled the CIA's ability to do its intelligence job and otherwise constrains certain actions by the Federal government that I am outlining as follows: I suggest we first send in Janet Reno and her ATF tanks to blast through the terrorists' training camp walls and burn down their bunkers. Al Gore would then step in and stop all oil drilling, industrialization and economic growth with radical environmental policies; he will establish supreme rights for all animals and plants. Clinton would wrap up this invasion by dismantling the family structure through immorality and deceit, while ensuring all remaining defense secrets are sold to other countries. Should any of the above missions fail, our backup plan is for California Governor Gray Davis to be deployed to destroy their energy supplies and create massive power outages. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: Columbine and Bloody Tuesday (fwd) Date: 18 Sep 2001 19:35:38 -0700 Subj: COLUMBINE AND BLOODY TUESDAY COLUMBINE AND BLOODY TUESDAY By L. Neil Smith The catastrophic events of the morning of September 11, 2001 are being described now as unprecedented in American or world history, although comparisons have been made to the morning of December 7, 1941. What came to my mind, however, once the bleakly undeniable fact had penetrated to the depths of my being, that the events I was seeing were neither movie special effects nor some kind of horrible accident, was another "day that will live in infamy", the morning of April 20, 1999, the date of the Columbine High School massacre in Littleton, Colorado. There are similarities. Both were despicable acts of criminality or terrorism (and there are fewer distinctions between the two in my mind than there may be in the minds of others) carried out by a small number of sociopaths or fanatics (ditto) against innocent and helpless individuals. Both were -- and are still being -- mercilessly exploited by the carrion-eating mass media, partly, it is to be charitably assumed, for the sake of ratings and advertising revenue, but primarily for the benefit of socialist politicians and the evil, despotic, anti-freedom agenda that they -- both mass media and politicians -- unswervingly serve. But the most important resemblance that the two events, Columbine and Bloody Tuesday, bear to one another is that both had precisely the same cause: illegal denial by the government of the fundamental rights of ordinary people -- particularly the right enumerated by the Second Amendment -- the unalienable, individual, civil, Constitutional, and human right of every man, woman, and responsible child to obtain, own, and carry, openly or concealed, any weapon, rifle, shotgun, handgun, machinegun, _anything_, any time, any place, without asking anyone's permission. I said it at the time: Columbine happened, not because there were too many guns at the school that day, but because there were too few. Twelve people died because there were too few guns, and now the same error has cost the lives of five thousand unique, irreplaceable human beings. This is the price we've paid -- the butcher's bill -- for gun control. And now it's plain for anyone to see, in letters of fire written across the sky, why the proper name for gun control is victim disarmament. Something else is plain, as well. The claim governments have been making for six thousand years that they protect us -- at an enormous and increasing cost to us in money and freedom (which is why the claim has to be made) -- has now been proven by both of these events, beyond any possible lingering shadow of a doubt, to be utterly, murderously fraudulent. Over just the past two hundred years, we have paid out trillions in taxation, sacrificed our liberties as well as those of our children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren, for exactly _nothing_. For worse than nothing, in terms of the lives that could have been saved (not to mention what some of those lives might have accomplished) if they had not been cruelly and illegally denied adequate tools for self-defense. This time, it's gone too far. This time, the malignant con-game of government protection has deprived our civilization of more than 5000 precious lives, snuffed out on a single day because there was no one -- and no tools -- to stop the killers. And what do the con-men -- the mass media and the politicians, their vile fingers still dripping with the blood of their innocent and helpless victims -- want to give us now to make up for that? Less freedom, of course, and more government protection! A diffuse threat, whether it's everyday crime or terrorism, can only be deflected by a diffuse defense -- like a well-armed citizenry. Until the 20th century (with occasional shameful exceptions here and there) the fundamental right of Americans to carry weapons on their persons was unquestioned, and until the 20th century crime was so rare that even to this day we remember the names of individual 19th century criminals. Does anybody doubt now that a single, determined individual, armed with a five-shot .38 (let alone a high-capacity semiautomatic pistol in a larger caliber) could easily have defeated a handful of fanatics wielding box-cutters, preventing the destruction of the World Trade Center? Does anybody doubt now that certain knowledge on the part of such fanatics -- that individuals regularly fly with weapons like that under their jackets or in their purses -- would have prevented the thought of hijacking commercial aircraft from ever entering their minds? We see the effect every day: initially in Florida, where a small change in the law, making it slightly easier for people to carry guns, cut violent crime by forty percent; in other states that have followed suit with similar results; in Vermont -- the safest state in America -- because it is the only state that acts lawfully, in accord with the Bill of Rights, and has no law, and never did, against carrying whatever you want, whenever and wherever you want, in any way you want. The simple, undeniable fact is that both events, Columbine and Bloody Tuesday, would have happened very differently or -- what's far more likely -- never have happened at all, if the right of individuals to own and carry weapons had been stringently and energetically enforced. That's why, no matter how bizarre or radical the proposition may sound to an ignorant and frightened majority, indoctrinated all their lives by the public school system and the socialist mass media, it's necessary to insist -- to demand -- that, instead of this stampede to fascism we see all around us, the Bill of Rights be enforced. We must continue to insist -- and continue to demand -- until it is inevitable that the Bill of Rights will indeed be enforced, if not sooner, then later. If sooner, then that will be wonderful. The Fourth of July will mean what it did once again, and December 15th -- Bill of Rights Day -- will be something to celebrate, as well. Fireworks on new-fallen snow. But if it's later, then those who presently stand in the way of it being sooner must eventually find themselves being prosecuted, both for illegal suppression of the rights of the American people, and for aiding and abetting, before the fact, the murderous criminality of creatures like Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold, and the World Trade Center hijackers. And any politician or bureaucrat -- especially any member of the media -- who advocates restricting the rights of Americans (or anyone else, for that matter) using as an excuse the atrocities of Bloody Tuesday, should be viewed in the same light as those who perpetrated them. -- ...................................................................... L. NEIL SMITH is the award-winning author of more than 20 novels about individual liberty and the right to own and carry weapons. Read more than 80 articles and speeches: buy _LEVER ACTION: ESSAYS ON LIBERTY_, for $21.95+$6 S&H from http://www.webleyweb.com/lneil/leveraction.html Order Neil's latest novel, _HOPE_ (with Aaron Zelman), get free stuff and a special offer: click on: or read about MAKING A MOVIE OF _The Mitzvah_ the action-adventure thriller by Aaron Zelman and L. Neil Smith -- and maybe even help get it done! -- click on . Watch for L. Neil Smith's long-awaited _THE AMERICAN ZONE_ plus a new _trade_ paperback edition of _The Probability Broach_ from Tor Books, respectively, in November and December, 2001. AUTOGRAPHED COPIES of _Lever Action_, _Hope_, _Forge of the Elders_, _Henry Martyn_, and a few others (sorry, supplies of _The Mitzvah_ are sold out) are available from the author. For details, write to Neil at . -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: Campaign to Preserve Civil Liberties (fwd) Date: 18 Sep 2001 19:36:37 -0700 Subj: [LPCampusActivist] Announcing the Campaign to Preserve Civil Liberties in the USA Reply-to: LPCampusActivist@yahoogroups.com Hello All, Like you, I am deeply saddened by the terrible attacks on the United States this past Tuesday. I want the perpetrators brought to justice. However, I fear that the US Government will over-react, and use their "War Against Terrorism" as an excuse to take away our civil liberties. This email is to inform you of the launch of the Campaign to Preserve Civil Liberties in the USA. Our goal is to collect 100,000 signatures by December 31st, 2001. That's a short amount of time, but if we wait any longer, congress will have already plunged into yet another orgy of law making. Our website is: http://freedom.123ie.com/ Please visit it, and sign our petition, then foreword it to your friends. As time passes, we will improve the website, and do other things to promote the petition. However, we must act now. Time is short. They will take our civil liberties before we know it. Please, go to the website, http://freedom.123ie.com/, and sign the petition, then ask ALL of your friends to sign it as well. We can't protect freedom by abridging it! Thanks, Kyle Varner Coordinator, Campaign to Preserve Freedom in the USA -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Sylvester Subject: Re:Chechnya is the precedent Date: 19 Sep 2001 02:20:55 -0500 At 01:49 PM 9/18/2001 -0600, roc-digest wrote: >Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:33:41 -0700 >From: "Lew Glendenning" >Subject: Chechnya is the precedent > >http://www.nj.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/cgi-free/getstory_ssf.cgi?a0615_BC_Ru >ssia-Chechnya&&news&newsflash-international > >The Russians have done all they can to sterilize this country. Small >country, not much outside help, ... > >The result is they lose about 20 people a week. They 'won' the war some >time ago. > >Any idea that we are going to 'win' by putting ground troops somewhere is >insane. The difference would be that we wouldn't be there to hold the territory. Our mission would be an in and out. The Russians were and are attempting to do just that in Chechnya. Why not, from their point of view, they were able to for a good long time. Of course the commies messed that all up, and lost all the the "stans" that the Russians had taken and held. We did manage to pacify the Phillipines, more or less, by giving them semi autonomy which was leading to full autonomy before the Japanese rudely interrupted the process, and even through that, they stayed loyal to the United States, not their Asian "brothers". 'Course the Japanese were stupid, as most totatlitarian states are, and did not treat the Philipinos even like true little borhters, something like the Nazis and the Ukranians. And we would not need to hold Iraq, or Afgahnistan. Only parts of it/them, for very short times. A snatch and grab, almost. As far as the suggestion to handle it as a police matter, well that's going to be kind of hard if the only government the place has is protecting him, whether the place is Afgahnistan or Iraq. The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. --Doug McKay" Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! Molon Labe! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Chechnya is the precedent Date: 19 Sep 2001 04:33:26 -0700 We tolerate countries that refuse to extradite a wide variety of criminals. Most cooperating countries require some evidence of a crime and a connection to the individual. I haven't seen that yet for OBL. Don't know enough about Phillipine history to explain that example, although the Phillipinos are an extraordinarily kind and gentle people, in my experience. Afghanistanis don't seem to fall into that personality type. I think that even 'snatch & grab' will piss off a lot of countries and kill enough people to generate a number of new terrorists at least as large as those we capture. (BTW: If OBL did make $ selling short on his inside knowledge, it means that terrorism on these scales no longer needs state sponsorship. We can expect mafias to support it next.) Whatever we do, it should be in the long-term interests of the US. From my reading of history, calculating long-term interests in international relations, especially warfare, is extra-ordinarily difficult. Even in successful cases (rarer than anyone likes to admit), there are generally side-effects that are as bad or worse than the problem being solved. Bin Laden, after all, is a side-effect of our efforts to undermine the USSR. WWII was a side-effect of our attempts to help the British in WWI (and our progressive reform of the banking laws and the Smoot-Hawley tarrif). etc. Again, the larger context: More people are dying in 2001 of the effects of WWI than died at the height of the trench warfare. TANSTAFL. We are really deciding between a 'War on Terrorism' and, for example, eliminating a particular set of cancers in 2 years rather than 10 years. Or developing an AIDS vaccine in 2 years, not 10 years. We need to end the cascade of ever-larger gov fixes to previous gov-caused problems. WTC 2001 was entirely caused by government: 80 years of playing Empire and 60 of ever more stringent gun control laws. (OK, Sarah Brady et all deserve some of the credit.) Lew -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Joe Sylvester Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 12:21 AM At 01:49 PM 9/18/2001 -0600, roc-digest wrote: >Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:33:41 -0700 >From: "Lew Glendenning" >Subject: Chechnya is the precedent > >http://www.nj.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/cgi-free/getstory_ssf.cgi?a0615_BC_R u >ssia-Chechnya&&news&newsflash-international > >The Russians have done all they can to sterilize this country. Small >country, not much outside help, ... > >The result is they lose about 20 people a week. They 'won' the war some >time ago. > >Any idea that we are going to 'win' by putting ground troops somewhere is >insane. The difference would be that we wouldn't be there to hold the territory. Our mission would be an in and out. The Russians were and are attempting to do just that in Chechnya. Why not, from their point of view, they were able to for a good long time. Of course the commies messed that all up, and lost all the the "stans" that the Russians had taken and held. We did manage to pacify the Phillipines, more or less, by giving them semi autonomy which was leading to full autonomy before the Japanese rudely interrupted the process, and even through that, they stayed loyal to the United States, not their Asian "brothers". 'Course the Japanese were stupid, as most totatlitarian states are, and did not treat the Philipinos even like true little borhters, something like the Nazis and the Ukranians. And we would not need to hold Iraq, or Afgahnistan. Only parts of it/them, for very short times. A snatch and grab, almost. As far as the suggestion to handle it as a police matter, well that's going to be kind of hard if the only government the place has is protecting him, whether the place is Afgahnistan or Iraq. The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. --Doug McKay" Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! Molon Labe! - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: Trading war criminals Date: 19 Sep 2001 04:43:29 -0700 http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig2/wallace1.html A bit of perspective. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Chechnya is the precedent Date: 19 Sep 2001 04:53:32 -0700 Perhaps there is no precedent: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia_china/story.jsp?story=94638 -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Joe Sylvester Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 12:21 AM At 01:49 PM 9/18/2001 -0600, roc-digest wrote: >Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:33:41 -0700 >From: "Lew Glendenning" >Subject: Chechnya is the precedent > >http://www.nj.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/cgi-free/getstory_ssf.cgi?a0615_BC_R u >ssia-Chechnya&&news&newsflash-international > >The Russians have done all they can to sterilize this country. Small >country, not much outside help, ... > >The result is they lose about 20 people a week. They 'won' the war some >time ago. > >Any idea that we are going to 'win' by putting ground troops somewhere is >insane. The difference would be that we wouldn't be there to hold the territory. Our mission would be an in and out. The Russians were and are attempting to do just that in Chechnya. Why not, from their point of view, they were able to for a good long time. Of course the commies messed that all up, and lost all the the "stans" that the Russians had taken and held. We did manage to pacify the Phillipines, more or less, by giving them semi autonomy which was leading to full autonomy before the Japanese rudely interrupted the process, and even through that, they stayed loyal to the United States, not their Asian "brothers". 'Course the Japanese were stupid, as most totatlitarian states are, and did not treat the Philipinos even like true little borhters, something like the Nazis and the Ukranians. And we would not need to hold Iraq, or Afgahnistan. Only parts of it/them, for very short times. A snatch and grab, almost. As far as the suggestion to handle it as a police matter, well that's going to be kind of hard if the only government the place has is protecting him, whether the place is Afgahnistan or Iraq. The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. --Doug McKay" Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! Molon Labe! - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: Israeli assassination policy Date: 19 Sep 2001 08:53:55 -0700 http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/fr/fr010919_1_n.sh tml Based on the evidence presented here, adopting Israeli's assassination policy is precisely wrong. This is a tale of ever-increasing levels of retaliation, with lousy precision of targeting on both sides. Therefore, increasing levels of hatred and recruiting of more hard guys on both sides. Pretty much like all the great race/religious hatreds in history. Lew Glendenning The CONSTITUTION, the WHOLE Constitution, and NOTHING BUT the Constitution - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: Disarming the People (fwd) Date: 19 Sep 2001 11:17:13 -0700 The senate is trying to pass a bill to mandate destruction (demil) of all former DoD firearms, aircraft, boats, military vehicles, radios, ground support equipment, technical documents, and spare parts. In plain language, if you own a surplus aircraft, vehicle or firearm, from whatever era, regardless of its historical significance these bozos want you to render it inoperable. Yes, they are talking about making people who legally acquired surplus military equipment cut it up so it doesn't function... and you won't be compensated for your loss - whether it's $400 you paid for an M-1 carbine or $2 million you paid for a P-51 Mustang. Own an M-1 Garrand that was used to storm the beach on D-Day? Cut up the receiver. A Model 1911 that your dad carried? Destroy it. An antique warbird aircraft? Grounded forever. A vintage jeep? Take it to the car cruncher. The demil standards are generally designed to ensure a piece of equipment is not operable, and cannot be made operable. Details at http://www.aero-news.net/. (You have to scroll down a bit to the picture of the P-51 Mustang...) The real cost of terrorism is in freedoms lost in the name of security. K. -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: S.1155 Targets Warbirds (and your dad's M1) (fwd) Date: 19 Sep 2001 11:17:57 -0700 S.1155 Targets Warbirds There isn't time to stop, to get our breath: the budget is rolling to completion, and, in the rewriting that is sure to happen in the wake of Terror Tuesday, a terrible bill may be included, unless we all act, and act now. "S.1155" doesn't ring any bells, probably; but it's just this year's version of HR 4205, the hated piece of legislation we -- you, me, and our friends -- were able to excise from last year's budget. What it would do is allow the DoD to order the destruction ("demilitarization") of anything the DoD ever owned, like a P-51 or a P-38, or a Corsair, for instance; or the B-17 manual in your town's library; or the antique field radio your VFW post trots out every July 4th. The only difference we can see between this year's S.1155 and last year's HR 4205, is that, this year, there is one tiny exception -- the DoD won't mandate the destruction of your M-1, provided you got it through the DCM. If your Grandpa brought it home from Guadalcanal, though, you're out of luck -- it will need to be destroyed. If your Aunt Millie has one of Patton's ivory-handled revolvers, she'll have to render it useless. The situation is once again critical. Please contact your Federal Representatives ... and make them aware of S.1155, Section 921 and its implications. For the WHOLE story, http://www.aero-news.net" -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: Articles and "Infinite Justice" Date: 20 Sep 2001 08:41:35 -0700 Is it possible our rhetorical gain control has been set higher with every administration over the last 20 or so years? The guys in Washington have http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/galvin3.html Ultimately, we can find out if the terrorists are targeting our cultural ideas or our foreign military and political misadventures. We can either (1) adopt a policy of non-intervention into the Middle East, or (2) lobotomize 280 million Americans. If you haven't had a lobotomy recently, the choice is clear. http://www.lewrockwell.com/ostrowski/ostrowski17.html "Smoking them out" is not new in the Middle East http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=94825 Guardian articles on Afghanistan http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,554371,00.html http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,554913,00.html Guaradian analysis of Chechan parallel: http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,554283,00.html http://www.guardian.co.uk/chechnya/Story/0,2763,553712,00.html - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: Your gov at work: Surely they will be better at war !! Date: 20 Sep 2001 08:51:38 -0700 http://www.mises.org/fullstory.asp?control=783 Safe Travel by Jay Chris Robbins and Jamie Beckett [Posted September 20, 2001] New regulations that the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has handed down in the wake of last Tuesday's murderous attack include several that are arbitrary, burdensome, and unlikely to make our airplanes or airports any safer. Some of these rules have left pilots, passengers, and security experts scratching their heads. Abolishing curbside check-in. Firing most of the nation's skycaps and doing away with fast and efficient check-in will likely hurt, not help, airport security. It will result in longer lines and greater confusion inside. Bags checked at the curb are typically subject to the same X-ray and inspection facilities inside the airport. The real issue, therefore, is strengthening security and realizing production-line efficiencies after bags hit airport conveyor belts. Even without such improvements, it is important to remember that there have been no reported instances of terrorists blowing up planes after sneaking past any one of the nation's 25,000 skycaps. Many of these workers will lose their jobs. It is also a blow to consumer convenience, one that will particular affect elderly Americans. Elimination of mail and cargo. For airlines, mail and cargo is often cream off the top. Since boxes and envelopes can be subject to even more rigorous searches than people's bodies and baggage, they pose no greater risk. If we want our airlines to survive this incident and our fares to remain reasonable, the ban must be lifted. Keeping cars 300 feet from airport gates. Dozens of airports nationwide lost thousands of prime, revenue-generating parking spaces that did not conform to the 300-feet rule. Yet when was the last time a plane was hijacked with a car bomb? Because cars can still drop off and pick up luggage and passengers mere yards from jetliners, the FAA rule will have no more effect than an aspirin on a brain hemorrhage. Ban on VFR flights. To date, the FAA has banned VFR flights except in Alaska. The rule has grounded most of the country's 288,000 private pilots. This prohibition is also decimating the $8.6 billion private aviation business and serves no purpose. Most small planes carry less than 60 gallons of fuel and weigh under 3,000 pounds. They pose no threat to national security. In fact, private pilots across the nation aid law enforcement with surveillance and search and rescue in all fifty states. The ban must be lifted immediately. By contrast, there are several proposals that enjoy support by pilots and experts that the FAA should consider: Side arms. Arming the cockpit crew with side arms is a must. The pilot in command, like a captain at sea, should have superior arms commensurate with his authority. In the future, pilots, many who have prior military training, will not think twice about facing terrorists with box-cutters and plastic knives. In addition, airline employees should be permitted to carry stun guns and a variety of other weapons. The FAA's decision, undertaken decades ago, to either forbid or heavily discourage these from being carried by pilots and crew has left airlines vulnerable to the most malicious passengers. You can' t screen for malice; you have to deter it with force. Tighter restrictions on access. Only authorized personnel should be permitted access to certain secured areas in the airport. Access-card technology currently exists that could limit access to ramps, gates, fuel facilities, and other sensitive areas. Cockpit access. Parts of the plane should also be off limits. Cockpits are the "holy of holies." They should be physically inaccessible to everyone except flight crew. Lightweight, bulletproof Kevlar doors, favored by most pilots, can provide added security. Some of these measures would be undertaken by airline companies themselves, provided they can be released from onerous federal restrictions. After all, no institution has a greater incentive to increase airline security than the airlines themselves, who have both property and paying customers to protect. Americans deserve the most secure airports, aircraft, and airspace system that can be devised. Nevertheless, even in times of crisis, administrative agencies like the FAA must ensure that there is adequate cause and effect between its rules and the results that follow. The initial round of regulations does not give grounds for optimism. -------- Jamie Beckett holds a commercial pilot's license. He is also a flight instructor and certified mechanic. Jay Chris Robbins is a Miami-based writer. He has soloed and logged sixty hours flight time in small planes. You can contact them at jcr@jcrobbins.com. Subscribe or Unsubscribe Join the Mises Institute Online Texts for Austrians Home | About | Email List | Search | Contact Us | Periodicals | Articles Coming Events | News | Resources | Catalog | Shopping Basket | Contributions C 2001 Mises.org - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Curtis Subject: Re: Articles and "Infinite Justice" Date: 20 Sep 2001 11:53:05 -0400 (EDT) Quickly scanned your material. Comments inline. > >Is it possible our rhetorical gain control has been set higher with every >administration over the last 20 or so years? > >The guys in Washington have > >http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/galvin3.html > I don't believe that any responsible person is advocating carpet bombing Arab civilians. This guys screed is full of empty rhetorical flourishes and he appears to be jealous of Ann Coulter's larger audience for her screeds. I don't believe that some random businessman from Cincinati and one journalist (Coulter) are by any means a complete data set on what "Washington" is doing. >Ultimately, we can find out if the terrorists are targeting our cultural >ideas or our foreign military and political misadventures. We can either (1) >adopt a policy of non-intervention into the Middle East, or (2) lobotomize >280 million Americans. If you haven't had a lobotomy recently, the choice is >clear. You're losing us here. Total non-intervention in the Middle East is a wild policy swing. Are you suggesting that Americans are going to be instantly lobotomized by some level of pro-intervention propaganda? You appear to be arguing by assertion. Oh. Your paragraph above is a quote from the URL below. I thought it was your writing. Seems nonsensical rhetoric to me. We are very unlikely to abandon our ally in the area (Isreal) or our "friends" Egypt and Saudi, so (1) is never going to happen. Lobotomize 280 million Americans? Propaganda is effective, but not that effective. Always remember: 50% of the population has an IQ below 100, by definition. I'm hearing more sense out of the administration than the news media. ciao, jcurtis >http://www.lewrockwell.com/ostrowski/ostrowski17.html > >"Smoking them out" is not new in the Middle East >http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=94825 > >Guardian articles on Afghanistan >http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,554371,00.html >http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,554913,00.html > >Guaradian analysis of Chechan parallel: >http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,554283,00.html >http://www.guardian.co.uk/chechnya/Story/0,2763,553712,00.html > > >- > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Curtis Subject: Reason Mag on Face Recognition Date: 20 Sep 2001 16:50:10 -0400 (EDT) Interesting stuff in Reason on surveillance and increased size of government as a response to terrorism: http://reason.com/rb/rb091901.html http://reason.com/hod/sr090601.html http://www.notbored.org/reich.html (last URL is a piece of poster-performance art performed in front of various surveillance cameras) jcurtis - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Articles and "Infinite Justice" Date: 20 Sep 2001 22:08:11 -0700 I think you are absolutely correct: We won't abandon our 'friends', no matter what is good for the US. Because we can't abandon Israel, whose behavior I can't distinguish from South Africa's behavior under Apartheid, we will continue to have terror attacks, and the country will be delivered to our FBI and CIA. (It is quite a common fate for countries to be controlled by their intelligence/security organs, we don't have any guarantees it won't happen here. Can't, in fact, be sure it hasn't already largely happened. Both FBI and CIA are clearly above serious criticism.) It is not possible to WIN a war on terrorism. Nobody has done this where there is significant community support for the terrorists. There is obviously international support for these terrorists. It is not possible to have a growing, modern economy in the face of significant (that is, technological/economic) terrorism. It is probably not possible to have a free society in the face of significant terrorism over a longer term. It is certainly not possible to have a modern, growing economy without a free society. Palestinian terrorism isn't really significant by the standards of the WTC, IMHO. If Palestinians were attacking the economic infrastructure, it would do a lot more damage than killing a few people via suicide bombers. So, our only hope, IMHO and by the logic above, is to stop doing the things which piss off such a large and serious-minded segment of the world's population. Ending the Empire is the only way to do this. Switzerland is simultaneously the richest (per capita) country in the world and the most peaceful. No terrorism problem. Lots of contributions to science nad medicine. Good world citizen, making a better place for us all. The US could be that and more: e.g. the largest contributor of private charity, beloved by all. But, we have to get rid of the empire, get the country back inside the Constitution in order to do so. Start by abolishing all the gun control laws, and increase everyone's security. Lew -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of John Curtis Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 8:53 AM Quickly scanned your material. Comments inline. > >Is it possible our rhetorical gain control has been set higher with every >administration over the last 20 or so years? > >The guys in Washington have > >http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/galvin3.html > I don't believe that any responsible person is advocating carpet bombing Arab civilians. This guys screed is full of empty rhetorical flourishes and he appears to be jealous of Ann Coulter's larger audience for her screeds. I don't believe that some random businessman from Cincinati and one journalist (Coulter) are by any means a complete data set on what "Washington" is doing. >Ultimately, we can find out if the terrorists are targeting our cultural >ideas or our foreign military and political misadventures. We can either (1) >adopt a policy of non-intervention into the Middle East, or (2) lobotomize >280 million Americans. If you haven't had a lobotomy recently, the choice is >clear. You're losing us here. Total non-intervention in the Middle East is a wild policy swing. Are you suggesting that Americans are going to be instantly lobotomized by some level of pro-intervention propaganda? You appear to be arguing by assertion. Oh. Your paragraph above is a quote from the URL below. I thought it was your writing. Seems nonsensical rhetoric to me. We are very unlikely to abandon our ally in the area (Isreal) or our "friends" Egypt and Saudi, so (1) is never going to happen. Lobotomize 280 million Americans? Propaganda is effective, but not that effective. Always remember: 50% of the population has an IQ below 100, by definition. I'm hearing more sense out of the administration than the news media. ciao, jcurtis >http://www.lewrockwell.com/ostrowski/ostrowski17.html > >"Smoking them out" is not new in the Middle East >http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=94825 > >Guardian articles on Afghanistan >http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,554371,00.html >http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,554913,00.html > >Guaradian analysis of Chechan parallel: >http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,554283,00.html >http://www.guardian.co.uk/chechnya/Story/0,2763,553712,00.html > > >- > - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: Another good Robert Fiske article Date: 20 Sep 2001 22:28:21 -0700 http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=94254 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Curtis Subject: Re: Articles and "Infinite Justice" Date: 21 Sep 2001 09:01:39 -0400 (EDT) Comments inline. > >I think you are absolutely correct: We won't abandon our 'friends', no >matter what is good for the US. > >Because we can't abandon Israel, whose behavior I can't distinguish from >South Africa's behavior under Apartheid, we will continue to have terror >attacks, and the country will be delivered to our FBI and CIA. (It is quite >a common fate for countries to be controlled by their intelligence/security >organs, we don't have any guarantees it won't happen here. Can't, in fact, >be sure it hasn't already largely happened. Both FBI and CIA are clearly >above serious criticism.) > I think that the CIA and FBI are living large, in that they finally have a high profile post Cold War mission. I disagree with you on Isreal, I can distinquish them from South Africa they have been living with people who hate them for 50 years now. > >It is not possible to WIN a war on terrorism. Nobody has done this where >there is significant community support for the terrorists. There is >obviously international support for these terrorists. > The miracle here is that the magic curtain of the continental U.S. has been pierced, could have happened 30 years ago. >It is not possible to have a growing, modern economy in the face of >significant (that is, technological/economic) terrorism. > >It is probably not possible to have a free society in the face of >significant terrorism over a longer term. It is certainly not possible to >have a modern, growing economy without a free society. > Agree on the latter. I think that this terrorism battle is not going to have an end. I believe that the reason mag article got it right in that the most likely effect is a ratcheting up of the size of government here. >Palestinian terrorism isn't really significant by the standards of the WTC, >IMHO. If Palestinians were attacking the economic infrastructure, it would >do a lot more damage than killing a few people via suicide bombers. > >So, our only hope, IMHO and by the logic above, is to stop doing the things >which piss off such a large and serious-minded segment of the world's >population. Ending the Empire is the only way to do this. > I disagree in that the fundamentalist hatred isn't grounded in specific U.S. policies -> it really is a pre-modern vs. modern societal conflict. >Switzerland is simultaneously the richest (per capita) country in the world >and the most peaceful. No terrorism problem. Lots of contributions to >science nad medicine. Good world citizen, making a better place for us all. > >The US could be that and more: e.g. the largest contributor of private >charity, beloved by all. But, we have to get rid of the empire, get the >country back inside the Constitution in order to do so. > >Start by abolishing all the gun control laws, and increase everyone's >security. > >Lew > regards, jcurtis - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: This just in... (fwd) Date: 21 Sep 2001 18:51:10 -0700 Recently, I was asked to look at the recent events through the lens of military history. I have joined the cast of thousands who have written an "open letter to Americans." Dear friends and fellow Americans 14 September, 2001 Like everyone else in this great country, I am reeling from last week's attack on our sovereignty. But unlike some, I am not reeling from surprise. As a career soldier and a student and teacher of military history, I have a different perspective and I think you should hear it. This war will be won or lost by the American citizens, not diplomats, politicians or soldiers. Let me briefly explain. In spite of what the media, and even our own government is telling us, this act was not committed by a group of mentally deranged fanatics. To dismiss them as such would be among the gravest of mistakes. This attack was committed by a ferocious, intelligent and dedicated adversary. Don't take this the wrong way. I don't admire these men and I deplore their tactics, but I respect their capabilities. The many parallels that have been made with the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor are apropos. Not only because it was a brilliant sneak attack against a complacent America, but also because we may well be pulling our new adversaries out of caves 30 years after we think this war is over, just like my father's generation had to do with the formidable Japanese in the years following WW II. These men hate the United States with all of their being, and we must not underestimate the power of their moral commitment. Napoleon, perhaps the world's greatest combination of soldier and statesman, stated "the moral is to the physical as three is to one." Patton thought the Frenchman underestimated its importance and said moral conviction was five times more important in battle than physical strength. Our enemies are willing - better said anxious -- to give their lives for their cause. How committed are we America? And for how long? In addition to demonstrating great moral conviction, the recent attack demonstrated a mastery of some of the basic fundamentals of warfare taught to most military officers worldwide, namely simplicity, security and surprise. When I first heard rumors that some of these men may have been trained at our own Air War College, it made perfect sense to me. This was not a random act of violence, and we can expect the same sort of military competence to be displayed in the battle to come. This war will escalate, with a good portion of it happening right here in the good ol' U.S. of A. These men will not go easily into the night. They do not fear us. We must not fear them. In spite of our overwhelming conventional strength as the world's only "superpower" (a truly silly term), we are the underdog in this fight. As you listen to the carefully scripted rhetoric designed to prepare us for the march for war, please realize that America is not equipped or seriously trained for the battle ahead. To be certain, our soldiers are much better than the enemy, and we have some excellent "counter-terrorist" organizations, but they are mostly trained for hostage rescues, airfield seizures, or the occasional "body snatch," (which may come in handy). We will be fighting a war of annihilation, because if their early efforts are any indication, our enemy is ready and willing to die to the last man. Eradicating the enemy will be costly and time consuming. They have already deployed their forces in as many as 20 countries, and are likely living the lives of everyday citizens. Simply put, our soldiers will be tasked with a search and destroy mission on multiple foreign landscapes, and the public must be patient and supportive until the strategy and tactics can be worked out. For the most part, our military is still in the process of redefining itself and presided over by men and women who grew up with - and were promoted because they excelled in - Cold War doctrine, strategy and tactics. This will not be linear warfare, there will be no clear "centers of gravity" to strike with high technology weapons. Our vast technological edge will certainly be helpful, but it will not be decisive. Perhaps the perfect metaphor for the coming battle was introduced by the terrorists themselves aboard the hijacked aircraft -- this will be a knife fight, and it will be won or lost by the ingenuity and will of citizens and soldiers, not by software or smart bombs. We must also be patient with our military leaders. Unlike Americans who are eager to put this messy time behind us, our adversaries have time on their side, and they will use it. They plan to fight a battle of attrition, hoping to drag the battle out until the American public loses its will to fight. This might be difficult to believe in this euphoric time of flag waving and patriotism, but it is generally acknowledged that America lacks the stomach for a long fight. We need only look as far back as Vietnam, when North Vietnamese General Vo Nguyen Giap (also a military history teacher) defeated the United States of America without ever winning a major tactical battle. American soldiers who marched to war cheered on by flag waving Americans in 1965 were reviled and spat upon less than three years later when they returned. Although we hope that Usama Bin Laden is no Giap, he is certain to understand and employ the concept. We can expect not only large doses of pain like the recent attacks, but! also less audacious "sand in the gears" tactics, ranging from livestock infestations to attacks at water supplies and power distribution facilities. These attacks are designed to hit us in our "comfort zone" forcing the average American to "pay more and play less" and eventually eroding our resolve. But it can only work if we let it. It is clear to me that the will of the American citizenry - you and I - is the center of gravity the enemy has targeted. It will be the fulcrum upon which victory or defeat will turn. He believes us to be soft, impatient, and self-centered. He may be right, but if so, we must change. The Prussian general Carl von Clausewitz, (the most often quoted and least read military theorist in history), says that there is a "remarkable trinity of war" that is composed of the (1) will of the people, (2) the political leadership of the government, and (3) the chance and probability that plays out on the field of battle, in that order. Every American citizen was in the crosshairs of last Tuesday's attack, not just those that were unfortunate enough to be in the World Trade Center or Pentagon. The will of the American people will decide this war. If we are to win, it will be because we have what it takes to persevere through a few more hits, learn from our! mistakes, improvise, and adapt. If we can do that, we will eventually prevail. Everyone I've talked to In the past few days has shared a common frustration, saying in one form or another "I just wish I could do something!" You are already doing it. Just keep faith in America, and continue to support your President and military, and the outcome is certain. If we fail to do so, the outcome is equally certain. God Bless America Dr. Tony Kern, Lt Col, USAF (Ret) Former Director of Military History, USAF Academy -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Articles and "Infinite Justice" Date: 21 Sep 2001 19:31:19 -0700 I agree about Islamic fundamentalists hating economic and social progress. They get their power from primitive people. Not too different than our own fundamentalists. However, the specific events and conditions that motivate most people are concrete, not at all abstract. Our support of Israel, our embargo of Iraq, our troops in Saudi Arabia, our support of repressive (at least) govs in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, ... These all have a serious element of injustice, the fuel that drives extremist actions. As for Israel: A) they have 'death squads' (called by other names, and out in the open, but extra-judicial murder for the convenience of the state) and these death squads kill a lot of civilians -- 'collateral damage'. B) They imprison people without trial. C) They use torture. D) They dis-enfranchise people who should be citizens both by makeing them part of the Palestinian State (called 'bantustans' by SA) and by preventing former citizens of the area from re-entering the country after the war. In SA there were periodic attempts by whites and blacks to marry, and lots of illicit living together. You don't hear of such a thing in Israel, and by this measure both sides are seriously racist. All of this said, and despite the fact that there are no doubt many wonderful people in both groups, and real friendships across the divide, the Palestinians are a pretty primitive people in their political and religious views. (Or, perhaps, our media only filters for the extremist views. Certainly that happened with, for example, the militia movements in the US.) I don't have a solution here, except a 25 year solution of economic development and Internet connections for the Palestinians. (I am NOT proposing another foreign aid program. Yassar Arafat would steal most of it.) The economic development is largely gated by Palestinian willingness to go on with the Intifada, so perhaps there is no solution. If not, I believe the Israelis will have to leave Israel. I think our 'war on terrorism', at which we will be seriously defeated, makes the above more likely, and sooner. Again, we have to stop supporting the injustices that fuel the terrorism. There is no alternative if we are to keep our freedom. One more thought: We each have at least 20 years lower life expectancy because of WWI. That is, medicine is increasing life-expectancy at a rate about 6 months per year, and the rate is increasing. WWI/WWII stopped economic and scientific progress for nearly 40 years. Just one of the unfortunate side-effects of the war that nobody could have forseen. This WOT will have serious side-effects also. Was WWI worth it from your POV? Do you feel confident in making such choices for your great grandchildren? Lew -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of John Curtis Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 6:02 AM Cc: roc@lists.xmission.com Comments inline. > >I think you are absolutely correct: We won't abandon our 'friends', no >matter what is good for the US. > >Because we can't abandon Israel, whose behavior I can't distinguish from >South Africa's behavior under Apartheid, we will continue to have terror >attacks, and the country will be delivered to our FBI and CIA. (It is quite >a common fate for countries to be controlled by their intelligence/security >organs, we don't have any guarantees it won't happen here. Can't, in fact, >be sure it hasn't already largely happened. Both FBI and CIA are clearly >above serious criticism.) > I think that the CIA and FBI are living large, in that they finally have a high profile post Cold War mission. I disagree with you on Isreal, I can distinquish them from South Africa they have been living with people who hate them for 50 years now. > >It is not possible to WIN a war on terrorism. Nobody has done this where >there is significant community support for the terrorists. There is >obviously international support for these terrorists. > The miracle here is that the magic curtain of the continental U.S. has been pierced, could have happened 30 years ago. >It is not possible to have a growing, modern economy in the face of >significant (that is, technological/economic) terrorism. > >It is probably not possible to have a free society in the face of >significant terrorism over a longer term. It is certainly not possible to >have a modern, growing economy without a free society. > Agree on the latter. I think that this terrorism battle is not going to have an end. I believe that the reason mag article got it right in that the most likely effect is a ratcheting up of the size of government here. >Palestinian terrorism isn't really significant by the standards of the WTC, >IMHO. If Palestinians were attacking the economic infrastructure, it would >do a lot more damage than killing a few people via suicide bombers. > >So, our only hope, IMHO and by the logic above, is to stop doing the things >which piss off such a large and serious-minded segment of the world's >population. Ending the Empire is the only way to do this. > I disagree in that the fundamentalist hatred isn't grounded in specific U.S. policies -> it really is a pre-modern vs. modern societal conflict. >Switzerland is simultaneously the richest (per capita) country in the world >and the most peaceful. No terrorism problem. Lots of contributions to >science nad medicine. Good world citizen, making a better place for us all. > >The US could be that and more: e.g. the largest contributor of private >charity, beloved by all. But, we have to get rid of the empire, get the >country back inside the Constitution in order to do so. > >Start by abolishing all the gun control laws, and increase everyone's >security. > >Lew > regards, jcurtis - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: Terrorism Date: 22 Sep 2001 07:52:14 -0700 That is, interwoven with social ties, commerce, diplomacy, internal politics, ... The idea that we can win a war on terrorism is so simplistic. Clearly another example of the 'big lie' propaganda technique. Just like the war on drugs, with an equal chance of success. Lew 0000000000000000000000000000000000 Let's Target Irish Terrorists Too By Frederick Forsyth, a novelist. Wall Street Journal http://interactive6.wsj.com/articles/SB1001030017899536000.htm LONDON -- President Bush was pretty explicit. He did not have to mince his words. We are, he said, at war with global terrorism. If there was any ambiguity, it was about the "we." We the Americans or we the Western alliance? For the British this was rapidly cleared up by Tony Blair. We Brits are in this with you, a decision about 90% of Brits agree with totally. But here I have to say -- and readers must imagine a polite cough -- that this leaves us both with a bit of unfinished business. It's called the Irish Republican Army. Let's see how the IRA measures up with the definition of the enemy that Mr. Bush has outlined. That the IRA, either the Provisional or "Real" branch, is a terrorist organization can hardly be doubted. Nothing of course can compare with the sheer scale of the death toll in Manhattan, but the deliberate evil of placing a large bomb in a building or public place swarming with civilians is exactly, exactly the same. Twenty-eight dead, men and women and children, in Omagh, Northern Ireland; more than five times that number in Oklahoma City; a hundred times that in Manhattan. The evil is the same. The following, partial list of IRA bombings or other outrages will mean little to most non-British readers: Guilford (pub); La Mon (restaurant -- napalm in the vent pipes, they fried alive the Ulster Collie-Dog Society that night); Grand Hotel (attempt to assassinate Margaret Thatcher and her cabinet); Bishopsgate (heart of London); Old Bailey (law court); Downing Street (attempt to murder John Major and his cabinet); Dover barracks (music cadet school); Alders (shopping mall). I guess that qualifies them as terrorists. But that is just the tip. There have been close to 400 attacks in all, and about 2,000 that were intercepted and defused. Death toll? Over 30 years, the IRA has murdered 302 police officers, 651 soldiers and reservists, around 2,000 civilians. As I say, the "score" cannot match Manhattan on a single day, but it shares approximate parity with Hamas and Hezbollah. Next question: Is the IRA truly "global," the president's second qualification? Well, they are trained in Lebanon, Libya and Sudan; they have liaised with every known Mideast terror group. They have killed or attempted to kill in five countries in Western Europe. Some years ago they happily accepted five entire shiploads of arms from Moammar Gadhafi, when he was at the height of his terror-supporting mode. (Four got through, we intercepted the fifth.) Only a few weeks ago, three of their top reps were exchanging bomb-making technology with the FARC in Colombia. Beirut via Dublin to Colombia seems pretty "global." But President Bush went further. Not only would the terrorists themselves be hunted down and put out of business, but also those who supported, armed and funded them. Fine. So where has the main support, funding and weapon-source for the IRA been? I am afraid the answer is the United States. Over here we still recall the oily endorsements of the "Irish struggle" by Sen. Ted Kennedy. We recall the avid backing by Rep. Peter King (R., N.Y.). We remember the interviews with Martin Galvin of Noraid, the American group through which aid to Northern Irish terrorists is funneled, openly jubilant at every fresh death of a soldier or policeman. And we have reeled at the gullible acceptance by a section of the American public of the lies put out by the IRA and their supporters. There are two things that have to be borne in mind. The first is that Ireland is not a land of easy simplicities; it is an extremely complicated place with an extraordinarily complex history. The six counties that comprise Ulster today are a leftover from the Irish war of independence and the Irish civil war that followed immediately. It is an enclave that chose by a massive majority to remain British upon the arrival of Irish independence 80 years ago. Unfortunately it contains two populations: about a million fiercely British Unionists and some half a million Republicans. The Unionists have made very plain that, having remained utterly loyal to the United Kingdom through two world wars, they do not deserve to be abandoned for absorption into a state of which they do not wish to be citizens. The Republicans have made equally plain that they would like the enclave to be united with the Republic of Ireland. If the proportions were reversed, our course would be easy: referendum, self-determination, the full Monty. But the proportions are not reversed. The second fact is that the IRA has sold a section of the Irish-American community a bill of goods, of which the IRA men themselves believe not a word. This is the myth of a once-and-future Irish Utopia, wall-to-wall leprechauns and shamrocks, with everyone living in brotherly harmony -- prevented by the brutal Brits who insist on keeping them in subjection. For the past 30 years the British presence in Ulster has not been in order to subjugate anyone but to prevent two communities from tearing each others' throats out. As the Americans discovered in Somalia, that is a very dangerous and utterly thankless task. The Republic of Ireland and the U.K. are two democracies. In each country, just as in the U.S., if you want to change the political map, you convince enough of your fellow citizens, you get elected, and then you govern by popular consent. It is no more legitimate to put a Semtex bomb in a shopping mall than it was for Timothy McVeigh to blow up the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City. Despite all this, Irish-Americans have contributed millions of dollars via Noraid to the slaughter pile, and successive administrations, fearful of the power of the Irish vote, have turned a blind eye. Americans must have been offended to see Palestinians and others dancing for joy at America's agony. They can imagine how the British felt as jigs were danced and toasts raised to "the lads" in the bars of Boston when another British Tommy was carried, flag-decked, to his grave. They can also guess at how Brits felt when men we know to have shot our policemen in the back were received at the White House with a warm Clintonian embrace. We are either united in this fight against terrorism -- all terrorism -- or we are not. But you cannot cherry-pick the acceptable killers who shoot Brits and the unacceptable ones who kill Americans. So the next time Mr. Galvin rattles the collecting tin for the IRA, Americans should tell him to take a hike. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: WOT == more violations of the Constitution Date: 22 Sep 2001 08:02:16 -0700 Strange Views on War Powers Steve Montgomery & Steve Farrell Friday, Sept. 20, 2001 http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/9/21/33228.shtml Audaciously, last week White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer, confronted for the second time in as many minutes to clarify the president's position on the necessity of a formal declaration of war from Congress, responded rousingly that it's "nice" that Congress is behind the president, but its consent is not needed. The Constitution grants the president, as commander in chief, all the authority he needs. Question for the White House: To which Constitution is the Bush administration referring? Quoting from the U.S. Constitution, Article 1, Section 8, we read: "The Congress shall have the power ... to declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal [i.e., letters authorizing U.S. troops to snuff out foreign terrorists], and make rules concerning captures on land and water. (our emphasis) "To raise and support armies. "To provide and maintain a navy. "To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces. "To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions. "To provide for organizing, arming and disciplining the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States. ..." Clear enough. Only Congress can declare war, make military law, call up the Guard and finance the war. As for commander-in-chief powers, we refer President Bush, his advisers and Congress to Federalist 69. Hamilton begins by quoting from Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution: The President [shall] be the commander-in-chief of the army and navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several States, when called into the actual service of the United States [via a declaration of war from Congress]. (our emphasis) He then clarifies what commander in chief means: In this respect his authority would be nominally the same with that of the king of Great Britain, but in substance much inferior to it. It would amount to nothing more than the supreme command and direction of the military and naval forces, as first general and admiral of the Confederacy; while that of the British king extends to the declaring of war and to the raising and regulating of fleets and armies all which, by the Constitution under consideration, would appertain to the legislature. Head general, that's all. Get over it. War on the World? We've previously stated that we unequivocally support a tough military, economic, intelligence, and as needed, domestic response against the perpetrators, sponsors, harborers, and economic backers of last week's attack. Yet we can't help but raise a hue and cry over the fact that President Bush's sidestepping of the constitutional requirement for a congressional declaration of war coincides with his insistence that this act of war was an attack on not just the United States, but "on the world." Or, to take our complaint to the next level, the Bush administration deemed it not just nice but vital that the U.N. surrogate NATO authorized military action (1,500 soldiers from 20 nations), and we suspect, before all is said and done, that the president will give in to China's demands and Russian "advice" that the U.N. Security Council sanction U.S. military action. Truth is, NATO's charter requires it. Maybe you think this laughably insignificant. You do so at the peril of your nation and its Constitution. We should defend America with the authorization of Americans not communists, not socialists, not terrorists, not thugs in U.N. blue. No, not even with the consent of U.N. subsidiary NATO, whose ideological makeup prefers Marx more than Madison. President Bush, Congress and our fellow Americans, we adjure you to fight this war under the U.S. Constitution, and only the U.S. Constitution! Like Father, Like Son? This War on Terrorism is being portrayed as a transformational, defining moment in our history. What does that mean? Here's a hint. In another "defining moment," in August of 1990, President Bush's father, for 48 days, committed our troops to what was then being advertised as the "Mother of All Wars" a war against the supposed awesome military might of Iraq. Bush did so, first by his own will, then with the vital consent of the United Nations Security Council, which came on Nov. 29, 1990, and lastly, as if an afterthought, with the "support" of Congress, which forwarded him a mere we-won't-abandon-our-troops-in-the-field resolution for this fait accompli. This was an unprecedented power grab for both the presidency and the U.N. (1) Bush (Sr.) then sounded just like his son now: "I have the constitutional authority, many attorneys having advised me." (2) Later, before the Texas Republican State Convention in 1992, he arrogantly added: "I didn't have to get permission from some old goat in Congress to kick Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait." (3) On the campaign trail, we remember, President George W. Bush Jr. rebuked a Republican-controlled Congress for proposing a pullout date for U.S. troops (under NATO) in Kosovo. He didn't want them to "tie his hands." Godsends Looking back again to Bush the father, the historians tell us that the defense of dictatorial, Soviet-backed Kuwait was in our national interest, but why don't they take it from the horse's mouth? Bush Sr. unabashedly declared: "Out of these troubled times, our fifth objective a new world order can emerge. ... We are now in sight of a United Nations that performs as envisioned by its founders." (4) In a National Security Strategy document, he enthused: "I hope history will record that the Gulf crisis was the crucible of the new world order." (5) Will this heinous act of terrorism be exploited as but another "godsend" for the glory of the U.N. and the glory of its bastard child, NATO? Assassinations? OK for the U.N.! These mass murderers must be put to death. Justice shouts it to our souls. And yet we've heard debate over whether or not we should have the authority to "take out" foreign leaders. Ironically, on March 31, 1991, President Bush (Sr.) in his "Pax Universalis" speech at the United Nations, placed our nation on record as favoring a new U.N. power to settle "national passions" within the borders of any nation, and yes, to remove a nation's leader. So why didn't he grant the same authority to the U.S. to take out Saddam? Did the alliance need an enemy to justify a standing army in Iraq? Prediction Prediction: The War on Terrorism will be utilized as another "defining moment" in the progress of the new world order. The greased wheels are already churning. We pray Congress, the president, both political parties, and a vigilant citizenry will prove us wrong. Stand up and Be Counted Legislation That Matters Here's a chance to do just that prove us wrong. Congressman Bob Barr , R-Ga., caring enough about the Constitution and the importance of debate over dictatorship in deciding the life-and-death issue of sending our sons to war, last Thursday introduced House Joint Resolution 62, a formal declaration of war by Congress. The pathetic truth is the resolution went nowhere, accruing only eight co-sponsors. As of this writing, his office informs us, the issue appears dead. Nevertheless, Mr. Barr, appearing Friday on "The Savage Nation." encouraged listeners to contact their representatives and senators and insist they sustain the Constitution. We do the same. Contact your president, senators, and congressman and tell them to support H.J. 62. And while you're at it, remind them that the only consent we need is from our government, not NATO and not the U.N. Security Council. Tell them to co-sponsor Ron Paul's HR Support H.R. 1146, the American Sovereignty Restoration Act of 2001. Contact Steve & Steve at StiffRightJab@aol.com. If you haven't already, read Part 6 of Steve Farrell's Democrats in Drag and Part 9 of Missing the Mark With Religion. Missed a Stiff Right Jab? Visit our NewsMax archives. Footnotes 1. Foreign Affairs, January/February 1991. The Road to War. Return 2. Lewis, Anthony. "Not in a Single Man." New York Times, September 12, 1994. Return 3. McManus, John F. Changing Commands The Betrayal of America's Military. Appleton, Wisc.: The John Birch Society, 1995, p. 32. Return 4. September 11, 1990, televised address by President Bush. Return 5. National Security Strategy of the United States, August 1991, signed by President George Bush (Sr.). Return - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: Various news items on Central Asia Date: 22 Sep 2001 08:52:28 -0700 http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/21/wstee 121.xml http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$DAN0MWAAAAIMPQF IQMFCFFOAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/09/21/wstee21.xml http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$DN5RR1AAAAUPRQF IQMFCFF4AVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/09/19/wwar119.xml Jane's is a good site for intel of all kinds. Good articles by analysts on the ME situation. www.janes.com BTW: "Army capable of sustained land warfare" is incompatable with all the statements that "Clinton lowered readiness levels, etc.) Bush hasn't been in control long enough to have changed that much. Lew - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: ALERT: FREE CONGRESS FOUNDATION ESTABLISHES ONLINE (fwd) Date: 22 Sep 2001 13:37:46 -0700 Sent Fyi. This is well worth your time to fill out and send. They may not listen but you will of done your duty.///////////////////// One Dictator in the 1930's is enough for history.///////////////////// >Delivered-To: cfrocky@comwerx.net >Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 02:07:28 -0700 >From: "Dee Gonzalez" >Subject: LERT: FREE CONGRESS FOUNDATION ESTABLISHES ONLINE PETITION > > >The Free Congress Foundation's Coalition for Constitutional >Liberties is establishing a website with an online petition >to President Bush in support of our civil liberties and >constitutional rights. It can be found at > > http://www.DefendYourFreedom.org/ > >I strongly urge Coalition members to go to the website, sign >the petition and forward this to everyone you know! > >"After this horrendous series of attacks our new FBI Director >has suggested that we may have to limit some of our freedoms >in order to deal with terrorists. The truth is that if we >further emasculate our Constitution the terrorists will have >achieved the greatest victory imaginable. Their triumph won't >just be the thousands of people they killed, the triumph will >be if they see our democratic institutions crumble." -- Paul >Weyrich, http://www.freecongress.org/ > >Free Congress Foundation thinks America is strong enough to >protect our freedoms and to defeat the terrorists. That is >why Free Congress is proudly joining the new coalition, In >Defense of Freedom. We do so with the desire to help President >Bush and our nation's lawmakers to chart the right course that >ensures the terrorists and the governments that harbor them >will receive their just due while making sure what has always >been special about America remains as strong as ever. > >The petition is a project of the Free Congress Foundation's >Coalition for Constitutional Liberties. > >For more information on the Coalition: > > http://www.freecongress.org/centers/technology/ccl/ > >To Make a Tax-Deductible Contribution to this effort, please >designate your contribution to the Free Congress Foundation's >Coalition for Constitutional Liberties. Use our safe, secure >online form. Click here: > >https://www.econtributor.net/Contribution/Contribution.cfm?AID=XDHIDOF >KZFDF >[if the URL wraps remember to copy-and-paste the whole thing >into your browser] > >CONTACT INFO: info@freecongress.org > >Forwarded FYI by The Liberty Crew > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Original Material in CCOPS ALERTS are Copyright 2001 CCOPS, Inc. >Permission is granted to reproduce this alert in full, so long >as the following contact information is included: > >CCOPS: Concerned Citizens Opposed to Police States >P.O. Box 270205 >Hartford, WI 53027 > > Phone: (262) 670-9920 > Fax: (262) 670-9921 > Web: http://www.ccops.org/ -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: Homeland Security Czar Tom Ridge is a proven gun grabber (fwd) Date: 23 Sep 2001 21:50:56 -0700 Just an FYI, re what sort of policies "Homeland Security"'s alpha male favors. Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns grabber http://www.gunowners.org/alt96075.htm "In May of 1994, then Rep. Tom Ridge teamed up with President Bill Clinton, Sarah Brady (HCI) and Rep. Charles Schumer (D-NY) to pass the semi-auto gun and magazine ban. By casting his vote for the gun ban in a narrow 216 to 214 loss for America's gun owners, Ridge's one vote can arguably be blamed for its passage and subsequent inclusion in the Clinton crime bill of 1994. "In August of 1994, after GOA led a coalition of grassroots activists which nearly defeated the Clinton crime bill, Ridge continued his opposition to America's gun owners. He voted for the rule to bring the crime bill and its gun ban to the floor for a vote. (Ridge was one of only 42 Republicans to do so.) He then voted for final passage of the crime bill -- one of only 46 Republicans to do so. "In the Spring of 1995, Sarah Brady teamed up with newly elected Gov. Tom Ridge to push one of Pennsylvania's most restrictive state gun control laws in a long time -- Act 17. As Pennsylvania's Governor, Ridge presided over the passage of Act 17, and then signed it into law. GOA opposed this bill from its inception and teamed up with several pro-gun state organizations to lead the national charge against the bill. Act 17 registered and taxed long gun buyers and placed other restrictions on Pennsylvanians' gun rights." -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin "The latest New York Times/CBS News poll revealed Americans were ready to change lifestyles and sacrifice some freedoms in return for higher levels of safety." http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010916/pl/attack_bush_poll_dc_ 3.html ----- End forwarded message ----- ========================================================== Mary Lou Seymour Liberty Activists http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/1797 Liberty Books http://www.libertymls.com/la.htm Self Reliance Books http://www.libertymls.com/book1.html Think the info in the Liberty Activist news is worth 2 cents? http://two-cents-worth.com/?104799&libertymls@yahoo.com Gulchers guide http://www.libertymls.com/gulch/ ===================================== Free State Project http://www.freestateproject.com/ ==================================== "A libertarian is a person who believes that no one has the right, under any circumstances, to initiate force against another human being, or to advocate or delegate its initiation. Those who act consistently with this principle are libertarians, whether they realize it or not. Those who fail to act consistently with it are not libertarians, regardless of what they may claim." L.Neil Smith, http://www.smith2004.org/ -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: A place to tell the FAA what you think. (fwd) Date: 23 Sep 2001 21:51:43 -0700 It's true. The Federal Aviation Administration has a web page on which you can tell them what's on your mind regarding airplane and airport safety and security. http://www.faa.gov/apa/tellfaa/tellfaa.htm I'll bet a quarter this page is a sham, but it's free so I used it. Terry ******************************************************************* Pilots and the other members of the cockpit crew are highly trained. That means they are highly trainable. It also demonstrates that they are intelligent, have good eye-hand co-ordination and judgment, and are able to function in emergencies. Arm them. Put them through firearm training and close quarters firearm combat training. The last round of aircraft hijackings ended the era of hijackings with negotiated outcomes. From now on, the assumption MUST be that the hijackers intend to use the plane as a flying bomb. That means pilots no longer will have to choose between complying with their demands or causing the deaths of some or all of the occupants. The choice now is kill all the occupants or kill all the occupants AND hundreds or thousands of people on the ground. Take your worst possible scenario: hijackers somehow get firearms on board. They attempt their hijacking and there is a gunfight between them and the crew. The crew loses, the hijackers take over the controls and fly the plane into a building. We're no worse off than we were with the pilots disarmed, are we? Terry -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kenneth Mitchell" Subject: RE: A place to tell the FAA what you think. (fwd) Date: 23 Sep 2001 23:42:13 -0700 Here's a copy of a letter I posted to the "TELLFAA" web page, as well as snail-mailed to the FAA, the Prez, and all my so-called "representatives"; As a retired Naval Officer, I fully understand the need for increased security precautions here during the buildup of our war against terrorism. But would it be too much to hope for that the increased security be subject to a little rational thought, rather than knee-jerk reactions driven by blind panic? In airport security, the terrorist attacks of September 11 have shown that the entire basis of airport security prior to that time has completely failed. More of the same failed techniques will be ineffective. Many of the newly announced “security” measures have a recycled ring to them; haven’t they failed before? “Major Strasser has been shot. Round up the usual suspects!” For example: Curbside check-in of checked baggage is now banned. Why? Are we afraid of bombs in checked baggage? We ought to welcome the increased time that the suitcases are in airline control that personnel would be able to find it. Are the counter personnel so much better trained that they might recognize a bomb that the curbside porters might miss? Train the porters; don’t put them out of work! The WTC terrorists had no checked luggage, anyway. Perhaps if their baggage had been checked, they’d have failed! Only ticketed passengers are allowed on the concourse. Why? The WTC terrorists HAD tickets, and the Al Qaeda organization can certainly afford to buy as many tickets as they need. This useless precaution makes it impossible for children to fly alone, threatens to bankrupt shops and restaurants on airport concourses, and prevents families from seeing off or meeting their loved ones at the gates. More ID checks are being conducted. Fine, but useless. The terrorists had ID. And even though some of them were wanted by the FBI, most of them seem to have bought tickets in THEIR OWN NAMES, and showed proper ID to match! Besides which, ID is too easy for a wealthy organization to forge. Want to do something useful? Match airline passengers’ names against the FBI’s computerized list of wanted fugitives. Airlines are forbidden to give steak knives to passengers. This particular “precaution” doesn’t affect me at all, since Southwest Airlines never serves anything that can’t be wrapped in foil and eaten with the fingers. But is it really needed? The WTC terrorists hijacked the aircraft with their own knives and box cutters, and did so BEFORE the meal service began. And will this precaution be at all possible, unless knives are banned from concourse restaurants as well? The Subway Sandwich shop at McCarren Airport in Las Vegas uses a GREAT BIG knife to cut the sandwiches; in Denver, the TGI Friday’s restaurant on the concourse serves steak! Will all surviving concourse restaurants be de-knifed, and prohibited from serving anything that can’t be eaten with a spoon? No steak knives? No curbside check-in? This isn’t a war on terrorism; this is a war on First Class! The fundamental assumption of airport security is that by making the inspections onerous enough, you can detect and eliminate all dangerous weapons. This is false. What you fail to recognize is that there are no “dangerous weapons”; THERE ARE ONLY DANGEROUS PEOPLE. The terrorists who destroyed the World Trade Center, blew a hole in the Pentagon and killed 7000+ people (a number which will certainly rise!) did so with nerve, bluff, and improvised knives that couldn’t be detected on an X-ray or a metal detector. You can now purchase, from several mail-order catalogs, many sporting goods stores or over the web, knives made of carbon polymers which are non-metallic, non-magnetic and transparent to X-rays. Strip-search all passengers and wrap them in towels if you like; a person who intends to be dangerous will find a way to improvise a weapon. For example, a terrorist might rip the hem from his towel and presto! Instant garrote. If a defense is to be successful, it must have “depth”. This is a fundamental axiom of military planning. No defense is perfect; something or someone will get through. But airport security has ignored this basic fact, now with catastrophically fatal results. A good defense has DEPTH. The first (and currently ONLY) layer is airport terminal security, which is extremely ineffective, as we have seen. X-rays are no better than their operators, and bomb-sniffing dogs are no better than their handlers. Up to now, X-ray operators have been undertrained minimum wage idiots; better training and commensurate pay are good starting points, but won’t solve the problem. Some hijackers WILL get through. So will the weapons. It wouldn’t be too expensive, I think, to bribe an airline mechanic to place a knife, a gun, a weapon of some kind, aboard an airliner. If I were you, I’d be looking at recently-hired flight line personnel of Middle-Eastern or Irish ancestry. (It’s not improbable that terrorist groups might work together.) I believe that such allegations are currently being investigated in the WTC case. So what’s the next layer of defense? It has to be aboard the aircraft itself, and be able to take down the hijacker AFTER he has shown himself. Many such tools are available. Self-defense training for flight attendants. A policy of actively defending the aircraft; submitting to the will of the hijackers was always a stupid idea. The original policy assumed that the hijackers were rational (never a valid assumption) and that the hijacker had escape plans. We’ve now seen that terrorists can read history, and know that the Japanese kamikaze nearly defeated the U.S. Navy at Okinawa. We can never again assume that a hijacker doesn’t intend to kamikaze any valuable target. The “Air Marshal” program is being revived. Good! It was originally cancelled for expense. It can be made vastly less expensive by recruiting retired military officers, NCO’s and police officers who are in their “second careers”, and who are traveling on business anyway, as “Reserve Air Marshals”. Arm them, or allow them to arm themselves. Currently, active duty police are not allowed to carry their firearms aboard an airliner; this can be changed overnight. All active duty military officers and NCO’s ought to be armed at all times anyway, but that’s another subject. Arm the flight crew. Israeli El Al flight attendants carry firearms, and the cockpit crew is armed as well. El Al has never had a hijacking. Rep. Ron Paul’s proposal H.R. 2896 will allow flight crews to be armed. Imagine the effect on the WTC terrorists had the flight crew emerged from the cockpit bearing shotguns… Encourage the flight crews to disable or kill hijackers by other means. Had the pilots disabled the passenger oxygen system and decompressed the aircraft at FL 370, the hijackers would have had perhaps 30 seconds of useful consciousness before passing out from lack of oxygen. The co-pilot, wearing a portable oxygen bottle, would have had plenty of time to secure or kill the terrorists before diving to a safe altitude, in time to revive the passengers. Alternatively, airliners could be equipped to deliver a soporific gas into the passenger cabin to subdue everyone. Passengers and crew could be revived by medical personnel on the ground. Encourage passengers to act independently against hijackers. It’s their lives, after all! Paul Harvey reported, on his 9/21/01 radio program, that an airline captain out of Denver encouraged his passengers to “throw things” at anyone who attempted to hijack the aircraft. Other knee-jerk panic reactions have been noticed. Among other restrictions, general aviation was grounded until today, including airborne traffic reporters. Here in Sacramento, KFBK Radio employs Bill Eveland as their airborne traffic reporter. That’s COL William Eveland, USAF (RET). Did he really need to be grounded for two weeks? I note that Washington D.C.’s National Airport remains closed. I recommend that it remain closed; it should have been shuttered years ago. No other major city tolerates an airport so close to downtown. I urge you to consider the impact of Federal security directives on our Constitutional liberties. The WTC terrorists didn’t attack New York City so much as they attempted to attack the American system of personal liberties and freedom. It would be a shame if the terrorists were to win the larger war against freedom itself while being themselves destroyed. Ken Mitchell Citrus Heights, CA ken@creativemindssacramento.com 916-955-9152 (voice) 916-729-0966 (fax) ----------------http://www.creativemindssacramento.com------------- "Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein hailed the attack on the Pentagon and World Trade Center Tuesday as the Operation of the Century. He has forgotten that the Bush family's favorite game is Iraqi Bingo. The only number they ever call is B-52. " Comedian Argus Hamilton The Heroes of United Flight 93 Jeremy Glick told his wife to have a good life, and to take care of their baby. Thomas Burnett, who made replacement heart valves, called his wife to tell her that he loved her. Mark Bingham was a passenger. Todd Beamer used the AirPhone to report the hijacking, and then called "Let's roll!" as these four heroes attacked the hijackers who were on their way to..... an empty field in Pennsylvania. They were the first four heroes of the war. Let their names live in honor! http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010916phonecallnat3p3.asp http://opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=95001147 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 9:52 PM > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Subject: A place to tell the FAA what you think. (fwd) > > > Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 20:15:59 -0400 > From: "Terry M. Wintroub" > Subject: A place to tell the FAA what you think. > > It's true. The Federal Aviation Administration has a web page on which > you can tell them what's on your mind regarding airplane and airport > safety and security. > http://www.faa.gov/apa/tellfaa/tellfaa.htm > I'll bet a quarter this page is a sham, but it's free so I used it. > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Neil Dickey Subject: RE: [tgo-l] MSN Slate Date: 24 Sep 2001 10:49:40 -0500 (CDT) Here's something to hit your congressvermin with: The four hijacked aircraft used as weapons against us were a gun-banner's dream: Not only were there no firearms on board, but there were no weapons of any kind *except* in the hands of the BadGuys(TM). Look what happened. It's short, to-the-point, and quite true. Let's flog 'em with it. The opinions which I have expressed herein are entirely my own, unless other- wise noted. No-one else should be held responsible for what I think. | | | | D. N. Dickey | Virtuous motives, trammeled by inertia and | | Research Associate | timidity, are no match for armed and | | Northern Illinois Univ. | resolute wickedness. | | neil@earth.geol.niu.edu | - W. S. Churchill | | | | - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: Patriotism is more than Flag waving (fwd) Date: 25 Sep 2001 07:44:24 -0700 Patriotism is more than flag-waving By Don Feder 2001 WorldNetDaily.com Suddenly, every day is the Fourth of July. Flags sprout from lawns, car antennas, caps and lapels. Dan Rather cries while reciting a stanza from "America the Beautiful." Ordinary Americans are responding to our national crisis in the only way they know how. By displaying Old Glory, they are silently affirming their allegiance to the republic for which it stands and the values the republic represents. That's a good beginning, but not nearly enough. Americans must rediscover patriotism E28093 rescue a virtue assigned to obscurity by cynics and grudge-bearers. As it was by the World War II generation, patriotism must again be proudly proclaimed. Patriotism is a love of country expressed as a set of attitudes and ideals. A patriot knows his nation's history E28093 the events and personalities that shaped our character. His patriotism is informed as well as impassioned. It's high time that we began to teach American history to American children again. Our educational system has been preoccupied with inculcating an appreciation of other cultures to the detriment of our own saga. James C. Reese, overseer of Mount Vernon, observes, "George Washington has been virtually eliminated from elementary school textbooks." In a survey last year, nearly 80 percent of seniors at schools like Harvard and Princeton earned a D or F grade on a high-school level American history test. If the coming elite is so woefully ignorant of our past, what hope is there for the future? A patriot defends America from baseless charges. Under the guise of revisionism, multiculturalism and victimology, the assault on America is relentless. We saw it in the aftermath of the World Trade Center carnage, when the usual suspects declared America had brought this on itself through an aggressive foreign policy, an arrogant disregard for the aspirations of others and hogging the world's resources. Patriots must remind their fellow citizens of our greatness. It was America that defeated the 20th century's twin horrors E28093 Nazism and communism. After World War II, we could have colonized Europe and much of Asia. That we chose not to, but instead poured our wealth into devastated lands, including our conquered foes, is a testament to this nation's nobility. For more than two centuries, our democracy, which balances majority rule with individual rights, has served as a model for developing nations. Military cemeteries around the world bear mute testimony to the price we've paid for manning the ramparts of civilization. When Saddam Hussein occupied Kuwait, the call didn't go up to send in the Swedish army. It's true, we use a lot of the world's resources E28093 to make the products that give Liberians and Laplanders a better life. In the century past, invention after marvelous invention flowed from American workshops and laboratories. American capitalism may not be perfect, but it does a remarkable job of floating smaller craft in foreign ports. A patriot promotes national cohesion by championing that which unites us as one people. This includes English as our common tongue E28093 the language of American democracy from the Declaration of Independence to last week's presidential address. A patriot resists efforts to fragment our people. He opposes hyphenation in all its manifestations. He scorns politicians who frame appeals to Latinos, Asian-Americans, Catholics or Jews. The only legitimate appeal to Americans is as Americans. A patriot understands the intimate connection between faith and our identity as a people. Washington said no man could call himself a patriot who seeks to undermine religious principles. After Sept. 11, people sang, "God Bless America," not, "We Are the World." Patriots must model themselves after the fighters referred to in "America the Beautiful": "O beautiful for heroes proved in liberating strife. Who more than self the country loved, and mercy more than life." While we rally round the flag, let us understand what so proudly we hail. There's 225 years of struggle and sacrifice entwined with those broad stripes and bright stars. It's a banner woven of dreams by millions of anonymous hands, preserved with their blood and anointed with their tears. -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: Saved by the Militia...?? (fwd) Date: 26 Sep 2001 06:31:45 -0700 An interesting thought... Cell-phone calls from the plane have now revealed that it was members of the general militia, not organized law enforcement, who successfully prevented Flight 93 from reaching its intended target at the cost of their own lives. http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-barnett091801.shtml -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: Good overview of our terrorist problem, interesting solution for Israel / Palestine Date: 26 Sep 2001 07:14:42 -0700 http://www.fff.org/comment/ed0901g.asp - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Curtis Subject: Re: Good overview of our terrorist problem, interesting solution for Israel / Palestine Date: 26 Sep 2001 16:59:37 -0400 (EDT) > >http://www.fff.org/comment/ed0901g.asp > Read the article. His "solution" to Palestinian/Israeli problems is: a. have a town-by-town, village-by-village plebescite, as to whether they wished to be ruled by Israel or Palestine. b. "And then, after, this political division had been decided upon, any minorities still living in one of these political states would have their individual rights to life, liberty, and property protected under an impartial rule of law with a regime of free trade reigning between the two states and between them and the rest of the world." Wow! Why didn't I think of that! I'm sure the suicide bombers will just thump their heads and say, "Allah be praised, that's what we need, individual rights protected under an impartial rule of law!". I'm just sorry that Professor Ebeling wasn't available earlier to convince the Soviets, the Nazis and all the other thugs of the last century that free markets were the way to go. What a shame, if Professor Eberling had patiently explained the virtues of individual rights and free markets to them we wouldn't have needed Churchill or Eisenhower, or any of that nasty World War stuff. We could have stopped the killing of 80 million people by Communists with a few Von Mises Institute seminars. Oh great! Prof. Eberling *has* edited a book, "The Failure of America's Foreign Wars". Too bad he was born too late to propose his interesting solutions in time. Complete drivel. Good example of sophomoric Libertarian debate. ciao, jcurtis - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Good overview of our terrorist problem, interesting solution for Israel / Palestine Date: 26 Sep 2001 18:17:54 -0700 Seems to me that "impartial rule of law" would be a big improvement on both sides. I agree with your implicit criticism that it would likely have to be stuffed down both sides' throats, but that doesn't invalidate the concept. Delaware should be trying to franchise its laws, the ABA should be trying to contract judges and lawyers to make them work while both sides learn about actual 'rule of law', Constitutions, etc. In any case, this proposal has a hell of a lot more chance of working than anything I have seen proposed so far (and would cost the US less $), so if it is sophmoric, our foreign policy gurus are about 8th grade. Which they are, of course ... Lew -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of John Curtis Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 2:00 PM solution for Israel / Palestine > >http://www.fff.org/comment/ed0901g.asp > Read the article. His "solution" to Palestinian/Israeli problems is: a. have a town-by-town, village-by-village plebescite, as to whether they wished to be ruled by Israel or Palestine. b. "And then, after, this political division had been decided upon, any minorities still living in one of these political states would have their individual rights to life, liberty, and property protected under an impartial rule of law with a regime of free trade reigning between the two states and between them and the rest of the world." Wow! Why didn't I think of that! I'm sure the suicide bombers will just thump their heads and say, "Allah be praised, that's what we need, individual rights protected under an impartial rule of law!". I'm just sorry that Professor Ebeling wasn't available earlier to convince the Soviets, the Nazis and all the other thugs of the last century that free markets were the way to go. What a shame, if Professor Eberling had patiently explained the virtues of individual rights and free markets to them we wouldn't have needed Churchill or Eisenhower, or any of that nasty World War stuff. We could have stopped the killing of 80 million people by Communists with a few Von Mises Institute seminars. Oh great! Prof. Eberling *has* edited a book, "The Failure of America's Foreign Wars". Too bad he was born too late to propose his interesting solutions in time. Complete drivel. Good example of sophomoric Libertarian debate. ciao, jcurtis - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: Got this from a friend, very positive attitude! (fwd) Date: 27 Sep 2001 00:49:43 -0700 ******************************** Pseudo-Military History Americans unleashed. By Victor Davis Hanson, author most recently of Carnage and=20 Culture: Landmark Battles in the Rise of Western Power. September 24, 2001 1:50 p.m. =20 =20 he bombings of the last two weeks have raised a number of analogies= =20 with wars of the past - nearly all of them false and, in fact, dangerous.= =20 Afghanistan We are hectored ad nauseam about the horror of a dreaded landlocked= =20 and rugged Afghanistan, the quagmire that has swallowed Alexander the=20 Great, the 19th-century British colonialists, and Soviet Communists=20 alike. Yet Alexander, in fact, did overrun Afghanistan - and with fewer=20 than 30,000 troops, despite factional rivalry in his army and his=20 self-destructive murders of his own top lieutenants. Britain withdrew=20 because of the errors of arrogance, logistics, and tactical incompetence,= =20 the Soviets largely on account of the gift of billions of U.S. aid and=20 weapons to their enemies, and their own foolhardy and evil attempt to=20 wipe out Islam. The Russian army, in the last decade of Communism, was=20 not the force that stopped Hitler in the far more difficult=20 street-fighting at Stalingrad.=20 Also unlike the prior invaders, Americans are prepared to strike=20 with no illusions about the ease of their task and with no wish for=20 conquest, lucre, or obeisance. We are not arrogant or naive as past=20 armies were; and we have no interest in occupying the country or in=20 turning the people from medieval Islam to the benefits of popular=20 American culture. Our mission is simply to destroy the Taliban; the=20 tragic chaos that follows will be no worse than what exists now. The=20 destruction of the Taliban can be accomplished through concerted air=20 attacks against their conventional military installations and terrorist=20 camps, as counterinsurgency teams and commandos target their leadership,=20 and mobile ground forces, perhaps with indigenous forces, advance on the=20 major cities.=20 Vietnam The chimaeras of Vietnam are often raised. Few conflicts are more=20 misunderstood. Then we were fighting a distant war against foes supplied=20 on their borders by our two chief nuclear rivals, China and the Soviets.=20 Our target list against the North was small and it often shrank. We=20 defined victory as creating a democratic, enlightened culture where none=20 had existed before. The draft ensured that our elite youth in=20 universities would take to the streets. Even with all that, our military=20 forces fought superbly. At the so-called bloodbath at Hue, the U.S.=20 Marines lost 147, killed over 5,000 of the enemy, and freed the city, in=20 the worst street-fighting since the Korean War. The siege of Khe Sahn was= =20 an enemy failure and resulted in 50 communist dead for each American=20 lost. In the horrific Tet offensive, a surprised American military=20 inflicted 40, 000 fatalities upon the attackers while losing fewer than=20 2,000.=20 Vietnam itself was a defeat, but this was largely due to politics.=20 Yet the political landscape of contemporary America is hardly comparable.= =20 Our home soil has now been attacked; we have lost nearly as many=20 civilians as we did soldiers at Shiloh and Pearl Harbor combined. Nor is=20 the country likely to see an American war as the nexus of racial, sexual,= =20 and cultural unrest. Instead, most Americans are slowly accepting the=20 grim reality that our enemies, far from apologizing for the slaughter,=20 wish to kill even thousands more of us at work, in our streets, and in=20 our beds.=20 Israel Other choruses have chanted, "Israel could not wipe out terrorism,=20 so how could we?'" Again, the analogy is false - and should be apparent=20 immediately in the grim reality of the post-September 11 world: It is=20 safer to fly on El Al than on United, and the towers of Tel Aviv are=20 apparently more secure than those in lower Manhattan. Israel's collective= =20 losses from the much-feared Palestinian uprising are far less than those=20 inflicted against the terrorists. Indeed, Middle Eastern fundamentalists=20 have now killed more Americans than all the Israelis lost to terrorism in= =20 the last three decades, and perhaps from the inception of the Jewish=20 state. But far more important, in the past a tiny Israel has been=20 isolated - with no financial, cultural, or economic assistance in its=20 struggle from Europe or others in the eastern Mediterranean, states that=20 at least could have ostracized terrorist hosts and supporters. In=20 contrast, we have the power to shutdown - or, better yet, physically=20 destroy - banks, communications, and corporations that facilitate,=20 encourage, or tolerate the terrorism of our enemies.=20 Unending War A decade of war is often promised. But rarely in history do we see=20 such lengthy fighting. The European civil conflicts of the Seven=20 (1756-1763), Thirty (1618-1648), or Hundred Years' Wars (1337-1453) were=20 marked by cyclical rather than continual battles; even the nightmares of=20 the Civil War, and the two world wars of the past century, lasted fewer=20 than five years. The tragic fact is that since classical times, war in=20 Western society is truly destructive when it pits Western power against=20 Western power. Caesar and Pompey and their followers killed more Romans=20 than did Hannibal; more Greeks were killed in single intramural battles=20 in the Peloponnesian War than in all the fighting against Persians at=20 Marathon, Thermopylae, Salamis, and Plataea combined. Alexander lost=20 fewer than a 1,000 soldiers in three pitched battles against the Persians= =20 while destroying an empire of 70 million. His greatest worry was not=20 Afghani tribesmen or Bactrian cavalry but tough Greek mercenaries.=20 Zealots The much-feared Cetshwayo and his dreaded Zulu militarist state of=20 some 200,000 were annihilated in less than a year at a cost of fewer than= =20 2,000 British dead. The Mahdists, ensconced at Khartoum and swollen with=20 British blood, promised a jihad to end all jihads; instead they were=20 annihilated by Kitchener. Hernan Cort=E9s, despite seeing the beating=20 hearts of his men ripped out at Tenochtitlan, wrecked an enraged empire=20 of millions with fewer than 2,500 Castilians. We should not always be=20 proud of these bloody accomplishments, but in military terms they remind=20 us that, for good or evil, the chief fear of a Western army is one like=20 itself. Yet, that horrific scenario seems unlikely in the present=20 conflict. Real powers that have elements of Westernized discipline,=20 advanced weapons, logistics, and training - Russia, India, and China -=20 are more likely to aid or remain neutral than to oppose us. If anything,=20 the United States may find itself closer to such strong states as it=20 distances itself from weak and "moderate" Arab regimes. Microbes, Nerve Gas, and Atoms We are told that we must worry constantly about biological or=20 nuclear weapons. Such caution is prudent and will remain wise advice for=20 the next decade. Microbes and atoms are formidable threats, which, unlike= =20 conventional arms, leave lethal, material aftershocks that ripple outward= =20 from their points of explosion. Yet Americans must pause to digest fully=20 the magnitude of their own catastrophe of September 11 - over 6,000 dead=20 in our cities, far more than what terrorists' nerve gas killed in Japan,=20 and more than the toll of Saddam's reported use of biological agents=20 before and after the Gulf War. Physicists could do us a great favor by=20 calculating the combined destructive power of the thousands of gallons of= =20 metal and fuel striking the towers of the World Trade Center at high=20 speed. Surely the magnitude of that conflagration was equivalent to two=20 or three kilotons of TNT - in other words comparable to the ruin left by=20 a small, primitive nuclear device of the type perhaps now in terrorists'=20 hands. We should be vigilant - and angry - but realize that we have=20 endured a horrible attack, and are still more powerful, not enfeebled,=20 for our ordeal. And because we know that our enemies have access to=20 biological weapons and perhaps nuclear bombs, and indeed wish to kill our= =20 children, it should make our resolve stronger, not weaker. What Is Ahead? An annus terribilis is upon us - the most unpredictable year since=20 1941, ushering in a frightening contest that we did not seek, but now=20 must enter and win. Yet the study of military history should offer us=20 more reassurance than dejection. This is the first occasion since World=20 War II in which we can and should use the entire arsenal of our defense.=20 The strategies of halting before Baghdad and lecturing Saddam Hussein=20 have been shown bankrupt; cruise missiles shall bring us no comfort, much= =20 less deterrence. The world has been turned upside down; with that=20 upheaval, the voices of proportionality, accommodation, and consultation=20 are discredited and now relegated to increasingly rare appearances on=20 late-night television. Good and kind men like Sandy Berger, William=20 Cohen, and Warren Christopher have been shown not prudent as they=20 promised, but in fact reckless through their past inaction.=20 The terrorists, in their eagerness for blood, have blundered=20 terribly, both in their barbarity and in their timing. It is hard to=20 arouse Americans, especially in the last two decades of their greatest=20 wealth, leisure, and license. Yet they have accomplished a radical=20 reversal in temperament and ideology in mere days by killing innocents=20 and striking both at the heart of American power and prestige and at the=20 very heartstrings of innate American kindness. There is a new=20 administration different in character from the past that in turn now=20 governs a changed citizenry. The next bloody months will not be the easy=20 police actions of Grenada and Panama. Perhaps they will require more=20 sacrifice than the fighting in the Balkans and the Gulf War, whose=20 combined American dead was comparable to a bloody week on our freeways.=20 But our war to come will not be Vietnam either. And this time, if we=20 choose to, we shall prevail. The terrorists and their sympathetic hosts=20 have no idea what they have unleashed. =20 Charles Riggs, RN=20 President, KC3 (Kentucky Coalition to Carry Concealed) "Fight Crime - Be armed - Fight back!" ********************************* A parable for our times: http://www.kc3.org/sheep.htm ********************************* --=20 --- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RK= BA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+------------------= --- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath n= o weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand =3D Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy= a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Chr= ist ----------------+----------+--------------------------+------------------= --- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! --- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: On the Positive Side (fwd) Date: 27 Sep 2001 02:02:38 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 10:01 PM > > By now everyone has been hearing the death toll rise and reports of > the > > destruction from the terrorist attacks on the US. These were > deplorable > acts > > that we will never forget. But now is a time to look at the other > side of > > the numbers coming out of New York, Washington and Pennsylvania. > > > > The sad but somewhat uplifting side that the mainstream media has not > > reported yet - the SURVIVAL rates and some positive news about the > attacks. > > > > *** The Buildings *** > > > > The World Trade Center - > > The twin towers of the World Trade Center were places of employment > for > some > > 50,000 people. With the missing list of just over 5,000 people, that > means > > 90% of the people targeted survived the attack. A 90% on a test is an > > 'A'. > > > > The Pentagon - > > Some 23,000 people were the target of a third plane aimed at the > Pentagon. > > The latest count shows that only 123 lost their lives. That is an > amazing > > 99.5% survival rate. In addition, the plane seems to have come in too > low > > and too early to affect a large portion of the building. On top of > that, > > the section that was hit was the first of five sections to undergo > > renovations that would help protect the Pentagon from terrorist > attacks. > It > > had recently completed straightening and blastproofing, saving untold > lives. > > This attack was sad, but a statistical failure. > > > > *** The Planes *** > > American Airlines Flight 77 - > > The Boeing 757 that was flown into the outside of the Pentagon could > have > > carried up to 289 people, yet only 64 were aboard. Luckily 78% of the > > seats > > were empty. > > > > American Airlines Flight 11 - > > This Boeing 767 could have had up to 351 people aboard, but carried > only > 92. > > Thankfully 74% of the seats were unfilled. > > > > United Airlines Flight 175 - > > Another Boeing 767 that could have sat 351 people only had 65 people > on > > board. Fortunately it was 81% empty. > > > > United Airlines Flight 93 - > > This Boeing 757 was one of the most uplifting stories yet. The > smallest > > flight to be hijacked with only 45 people aboard out of a possible 289 > had > > 84% of its capacity unused. Yet these people stood up to the > attackers > and > > thwarted a fourth attempted destruction of a national landmark, saving > > > untold numbers of lives in the process. > > > > *** In Summary *** > > Out of potentially 74,280 Americans directly targeted by these inept > > cowards, 93% survived or avoided the attacks. That's a higher > survival > rate > > than heart attacks, breast cancer, kidney transplants and liver > > transplants - all common, survivable illnesses. > > > > The hijacked planes were mostly empty, the Pentagon was hit at it's > > strongest point, the overwhelming majority of people in the World > Trade > > Center buildings escaped, and a handful of passengers gave the > ultimate > > sacrifice to save even more lives. > > > > Pass this information on to those in fear and the media. Don't fear > these > > terrorists. The odds are against them. -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: Is the Bill of Rights "anti-government" (fwd) Date: 29 Sep 2001 12:52:00 -0700 On Fri, 28 Sep 2001 21:11:30 -0500, Jerry King wrote: QUESTION TO THE MEDIA is the Bill of Rights "anti-government" too? Dorothy Anne Seese 09.10.01 ------------------------------------------------------------------- This is a general question to those reporters and editorialists who love to toss around the phrase "anti-government" when citizens or citizens groups challenge their individual, property or other rights when a government agency takes action. The Bill of Rights states what powers and rights belong to the people, upon which the government may not trespass. Does that make the Bill of Rights "anti-government?" If not, why not? Why is it that individuals and groups who assert their rights under the Bill of Rights become "anti-government"? The Bill of Rights gives to us, as citizens, certain rights upon which the government may not infringe, and when we assert those rights, you, the media, immediately attach to us the label "anti-government." If the Bill of Rights gives us our rights, and it is still the law of the land, then are you guilty of libel when you label people who invoke such rights as "anti-government"? Maybe that's one that should be tested in a court of law. You're banking on the lack of funding behind people's groups to keep them out of a court of law in such tests, or you, the media, would not be so careless about the invective with which you label people who merely stand up for what our founding fathers gave us to protect us from government oppression. You use your First Amendment rights of freedom of the press. If some of us use our right of freedom of speech, we're "anti-government." Dual standard for the fourth estate versus the common man? Or it is just that you, the liberal media, are so bent on taking our Bill of Rights away from us that short of labeling the Bill of Rights itself as "anti-government" you attach the label to those of us who dare .... dare ... to defend our rights against government intrusion? Do you, the media, realize that fully two-thirds of the laws now on the books in the United States would likely be declared unconstitutional if put to the test by a fair and just Supreme Court? That if we had elected constitutionally-conscious representatives as our lawmakers, such laws would not be laws today? Or is that an anti-government question? Your freedom of the press is abused by your use of it to intimidate, label, libel and malign United States citizens who invoke their constitutional rights. Pravda could do no better, and Xinhua, the state-controlled Chinese press, could do no worse! Is it any wonder that thinking Americans are turning to certain cable networks in the hope of obtaining honest information rather than biased reporting? Is it any wonder that newspaper circulation is dropping like a rock while internet news thrives? We not only need an honest government in this nation, we need an honest national media system, and if we had the latter, we might have the former! Now take the above and shove it down your anti-constitutional presses and think before you write or blather on the airwaves. I just exercised my First Amendment right of freedom of speech. -------------------------------------------------------------------- > You can contact Dorothy at "Dorothy A. Seese" Cut out the middlemen. Send your donation to: Boys Scouts of America National HQ 1329 Walnut Hill Ln. Irving, TX 75162 http://www.SaveOurScouts.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Cloyes Subject: Re: Is the Bill of Rights "anti-government" (fwd) Date: 29 Sep 2001 17:24:38 -0400 This is a great piece, but she makes one glaring error, the Bill of Rights does not give us any rights, it is an instrument to tell government what Rights we reserve that they may not engage in legislating upon. Tom At 12:52 9/29/01 -0700, you wrote: >From: Rich Martin >Subject: Is the Bill of Rights "anti-government" >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 00:27:01 -0700 (PDT) > >On Fri, 28 Sep 2001 21:11:30 -0500, Jerry King wrote: > > > QUESTION TO THE MEDIA > is the Bill of Rights "anti-government" too? > Dorothy Anne Seese 09.10.01 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > This is a general question to those reporters and editorialists who love >to toss around the phrase "anti-government" when citizens or citizens groups >challenge their individual, property or other rights when a government >agency takes action. > > The Bill of Rights states what powers and rights belong to the people, >upon which the government may not trespass. Does that make the Bill of >Rights "anti-government?" > > If not, why not? > > Why is it that individuals and groups who assert their rights under the >Bill of Rights become "anti-government"? The Bill of Rights gives to us, as >citizens, certain rights upon which the government may not infringe, and >when we assert those rights, you, the media, immediately attach to us the >label "anti-government." > > If the Bill of Rights gives us our rights, and it is still the law of the >land, then are you guilty of libel when you label people who invoke such >rights as "anti-government"? Maybe that's one that should be tested in a >court of law. You're banking on the lack of funding behind people's groups >to keep them out of a court of law in such tests, or you, the media, would >not be so careless about the invective with which you label people who >merely stand up for what our founding fathers gave us to protect us from >government oppression. > > You use your First Amendment rights of freedom of the press. If some of us >use our right of freedom of speech, we're "anti-government." > > Dual standard for the fourth estate versus the common man? Or it is just >that you, the liberal media, are so bent on taking our Bill of Rights away >from us that short of labeling the Bill of Rights itself as >"anti-government" you attach the label to those of us who dare .... dare ... >to defend our rights against government intrusion? > > Do you, the media, realize that fully two-thirds of the laws now on the >books in the United States would likely be declared unconstitutional if put >to the test by a fair and just Supreme Court? That if we had elected >constitutionally-conscious representatives as our lawmakers, such laws would >not be laws today? > > Or is that an anti-government question? > > Your freedom of the press is abused by your use of it to intimidate, >label, libel and malign United States citizens who invoke their >constitutional rights. Pravda could do no better, and Xinhua, the >state-controlled Chinese press, could do no worse! > > Is it any wonder that thinking Americans are turning to certain cable >networks in the hope of obtaining honest information rather than biased >reporting? > > Is it any wonder that newspaper circulation is dropping like a rock while >internet news thrives? > > We not only need an honest government in this nation, we need an honest >national media system, and if we had the latter, we might have the former! > > Now take the above and shove it down your anti-constitutional presses and >think before you write or blather on the airwaves. > > I just exercised my First Amendment right of freedom of speech. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > You can contact Dorothy at "Dorothy A. Seese" > > Cut out the middlemen. > Send your donation to: > > Boys Scouts of America National HQ > 1329 Walnut Hill Ln. > Irving, TX 75162 > http://www.SaveOurScouts.com > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >-- >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! >----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- >An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no >weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his >hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a >on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ >----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- > > Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Vance Subject: Ron Paul and Bob Smith Airline legislation (fwd) Date: 29 Sep 2001 23:34:00 -0700 Gun Owners of America E-Mail/FAX Alert 8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151 Phone: 703-321-8585 / FAX: 703-321-8408 http://www.gunowners.org ACTION: Please contact your two senators and ask them to cosponsor Sen. Bob Smith's legislation, S. 1463. Do not accept a non-committal reply. Demand to know whether your senators will cosponsor the bill. Call 202-224-3121 -- to identify your senators, as well as to send a pre-written message via e-mail, see the Legislative Action Center at http://www.gunowners.org/activism.htm on the GOA website. (Wednesday, September 26, 2001) -- It appears that the crusade for concealed carry is gaining momentum -- especially as it applies to pilots. Here's what has happened in the last two weeks: * Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX) introduced H.R. 2896 to let pilots carry guns on airplanes for the purpose of defending not only the lives of their passengers, but other innocent civilians as well. * Pilots, en masse, are speaking out in favor of this legislation. * The Air Line Pilots Association has even petitioned Congress, asking the legislature to let pilots carry guns. * Web polls, such as one conducted by CNN with over 100,000 votes, are finding that the overwhelming majority of the public (72%) favors arming pilots. And now, Senator Bob Smith (R-NH) has introduced S. 1463 to accompany the Paul legislation. Similar to the House bill, the language of S. 1463 is sufficiently flexible so that it would overturn the current FAA regulation encouraging airlines to veto firearms for pilots. In addition, it would preempt a rumored FAA regulation which would absolutely outlaw firearms in the hands of pilots. Sen. Smith is prepared to force a vote on his language as soon as the number and range of Senate cosponsors suggest that the language would prevail in a Senate vote. Therefore, it is imperative that we get a massive number of cosponsors on this bill. IMPORTANT NOTE TO PILOTS: Your role is critical in this battle. Please make sure that you contact your two senators and that you ask your fellow pilots to do the same. If possible, arrange for a meeting with your senators so that you and a couple of other pilots can meet with them. DEBUNKING THE MYTHS OF GUNS ON PLANES One objection that Senate offices may throw at you is this supposed idea that a bullet hole in an airplane's hull can cause catastrophic depressurization or cause the ship to crash. First, one should note that such an argument against pilots carrying guns would also apply to Federal Air Marshals. But the fact is, pre-fragmented ammo can minimize the supposed risks of a bullet puncturing a plane's hull. Having said that, writer David Kopel (along with author and pilot, Captain David Petteys) notes that the risks related to the hull being punctured are greatly exaggerated. In a recent National Review Online article dated September 16, they state, "There is only one known instance in which a bullet hole in an aircraft frame yanked objects across the plane, expanded, and sucked a person out into the sky. That was the James Bond movie Goldfinger. The movie was not intended to teach real-life lessons about physics." (Go to http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel091401.shtml to read the entire article.) Aircraft engineers have likewise downplayed the ability of a few bullets to depressurize a plane. "If one round, or two or three for that matter pierce the skin [of a plane]," says Dan Todd, a licensed aircraft engineer for 20 years, "it's not necessarily catastrophic." Todd says that in such a case, "air will go whistling out the hole, and the outflow valve will close a little further to maintain the desired cabin pressure." Another engineer notes that "a Boeing 747 can lose five cabin windows and maintain cabin pressure." (Go to https://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=2474 for articles dispelling myths relating to guns & planes.) If you are not currently receiving the full GOA membership benefits (such as The Gun Owners newsletter in the mail), go to http://www.gunowners.org/ordergoamem.htm on the web to sign up; or call toll-free at 1-888-886-GUNS. GOA's upcoming newsletter will be a SPECIAL ISSUE entirely devoted to this month's bombing, and will include some of the best commentary on the myths and realities of allowing guns on planes. ----- Pre-written letter ----- Dear Senator: Senator Bob Smith has introduced one of the most important bills this Congress. S. 1463 will help drive a stake into the heart of terrorism by virtually guaranteeing that no American airplane will ever be skyjacked again. S. 1463 will allow pilots to carry guns onto a plane, and thus, allow them to not only protect the lives of their passengers, but the lives of other innocent civilians as well. I urge you to cosponsor this legislation right away. At a time when Americans are fearful of flying and the airlines are laying off workers by the thousands; at a time when the economic aftershocks of the September 11 skyjackings are still reverberating on Wall Street; it is high time to ensure the absolute safety of airline passengers. Please don't believe those fear-mongers who would peddle the Hollywood myth that a bullet hole in a plane's hull can cause catastrophic depressurization or force the aircraft to crash. That is science fiction. Think about all the military planes that, in the midst of battle, have been riddled with dozens of bullets and continued flying -- only to land safely miles away. As noted by author David Kopel and pilot Captain Petteys: "There is only one known instance in which a bullet hole in an aircraft frame yanked objects across the plane, expanded, and sucked a person out into the sky. That was the James Bond movie Goldfinger. The movie was not intended to teach real-life lessons about physics." Kopel also quotes retired Air Force General James Chambers who points out that "the Air Force has plenty of pressurized planes, such as AWACS, which are able to sustain penetration/damage from bullets from enemy fighter jet machine guns." It is imperative that America not continue its current policy of making airplanes into gun free zones. America is rejecting this idea. The Air Line Pilots Association supports arming pilots. According to a CNN web poll, 72% of the American public supports arming pilots. The Smith legislation may be the most important bill you cosponsor this year. Again, I urge you to sign on to S. 1463. Gun Owners of America will keep me abreast as to who is signing on to this bill. Thank you. Sincerely, -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! -