From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #91 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Thursday, March 19 1998 Volume 02 : Number 091 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 07:02:07 -0500 From: Tom Cloyes Subject: IRS requests surveillance equipment >Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 20:27:48 -0500 >From: E Pluribus Unum >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) >To: E Pluribus Unum Email Distribution Network >Subject: IRS requests surveillance equipment > >From: John Sterling >Subject: IRS requests surveillance equipment > >Here is a Requisition Order from the IRS for high tech surveillance >equipment disguised to look like a phone company transformer. >Low-light capability, covert viewing port, audio capability- just what >every Revenue Service needs, huh? > >John > > >http://cbdnet.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate.cgi?WAISdocID=167144045+34+0+ 0&WAISaction=retrieve&WAIShighlight=off > >[Commerce Business Daily: Posted June 9, 1997] >From the Commerce Business Daily Online via GPO >Access[cbdnet.access.gpo.gov] > >PART: U.S. GOVERNMENT PROCUREMENTS (MODIFICATION) >SUBPART: SUPPLIES, EQUIPMENT AND MATERIAL >CLASSCOD: 58--Communication, Detection, and Coherent Radiation > Equipment >OFFADD: DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY, Internal Revenue Service, > (M:P), 6009 Oxon Hill Road, Suite 700, Oxon Hill, MD 20745 >SUBJECT: 58--SURVEILLANCE SYSTEMS >SOL TIRNO97R00049 >DUE 073097 >POC Contract Specialist, Steve VanderLinden, FAX (202) 283-1514 >DESC: The Internal Revenue Service requires enclosed surveillance > systems configured as transformers for mounting on telephone > poles. Salient characteristics include but are not limited > to: 2 watt frequency agile transmitter operating between -20 > and +70 degrees Celsius; remote controlled power amplifier > increasing outpout to twelve watts and controlling both transmitter > and receiver; continuously steerable dual power (46 and 56 > dB) antenna; motorized zoom lens with remote control of focus, > zoom, pan (minimum of 270 degrees), and tilt (minimum of +5 > to -30 degrees), with dual DTMF motor driver for pan and tilt > to reduce speed when zoomed in on target; precision color camera; > low light intensifier; covert viewing port (maximum 2.2 by > 3.7 inches); and automatic heater for instant video transmission > at temperatures from -23 to 0 degrees Celsius. Requirement > is indefinite quantity with maximum of 20 units per year for > a base year and four one year options. This is a correction > to a synopsis published on May 12, 1997: The acquisition will > be conducted on a 100% small business set-aside basis. Note > 1 applies. No oral requests will be honored. 10312. Note 22 > applies. No oral requests will be honored. >CITE: (I-160 SN082056) > >_______________________________ > > >-- >****************************************************************** > E Pluribus Unum The Central Ohio Patriot Group > P.O. Box 791 Eventline/Voicemail: (614) 823-8499 > Grove City, OH 43123 > >Meetings: Monday Evenings, 7:30pm, Ryan's Steakhouse > 3635 W. Dublin-Granville Rd. (just East of Sawmill Rd.) > >http://www.infinet.com/~eplurib eplurib@infinet.com >****************************************************************** > > - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 08:04:01 -0600 (CST) From: Subject: Fwd: Neal Knox Report (fwd) This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. - --1915762710-1786258450-890316241=:27571 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-ID: <0_889457292@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 09:29:20 -0600 (CST) From: pwatson@utdallas.edu To: No Gun Bans Subject: Fwd: Neal Knox Report (fwd) You never know who you will meet. At a Christmas party I was talking to my wife's company CaldwellBanker CPA and it turns out he is a big gun owner and member of the local shooting club up in Paris Texas. He has recruited several hunting friends to join the NRA. He also is thinking of running for the NRA board now that all his kids are off to college. - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:28:12 EST From: JWMPARISTX To: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Fwd: Neal Knox Report - --1915762710-1786258450-890316241=:27571 Content-Type: MESSAGE/RFC822 Content-ID: <0_889457292@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-Description: Return-Path: Received: from relay24.mail.aol.com (relay24.mail.aol.com [172.31.106.70]) by air19.mail.aol.com (v40.7) with SMTP; Sat, 07 Mar 1998 20:30:58 -0500 Received: from x4.boston.juno.com (x4.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.22]) by relay24.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id UAA02880 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:29:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from jwmparistx@juno.com) by x4.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id UQS26726; Sat, 07 Mar 1998 20:29:34 EST To: jwmparistx@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:04:39 +0000 Subject: RE: Neal Knox Report Message-ID: <19980307.192828.9759.0.JWMParisTX@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-45 From: jwmparistx@juno.com (John W McCoy, Jr.) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit - --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- Paul, I got your memo about Charlton Heston's participation in the 1968 gun control legislation promotion. I must say I was surprised and shocked! In general, I have been pleased with his performance and what he has said as a member of the NRA board. I recently received my 1998 ballot for the NRA board members. I am inclined to vote to continue Charlton Heston's board tenure. I do not subscribe to his philosophy, if the Knox report is accurate and continues to be true; however, I do think he is able spokesman for the organization. I respect him as an individual and admire his assumption of the gun rights promotion campaign. At his age and status in life, it has to be a large thankless responsibility to assume; especially, considering the daily flak and pot shots he has to take. Based on what I have heard him say, I believe his philosophy is acceptable. I will vote for him! I do intend to vote on my ballot to stack the board full of rebels, people the nominating committee have recommended against. After reading the materials, I am concerned about a top down philosophy instead of a bottom up (grassroots) approach. After reviewing their and the other nominee credentials, I find the rebels as well or better qualified than the nominating committee's list and in some cases superior. I also find their support of the by-laws ammendment forcing full disclosure of board member self-dealing with the NRA abolutely critical, and almost reason enough alone, to vote for them. I'm not sure how many of the rebels I will vote for but I suspect most of them. Thanks for passing this on! John - --------- End forwarded message ---------- _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - --PAAAA05984.889304355/r2.boston.juno.com-- - --------- End forwarded message ---------- _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - --1915762710-1786258450-890316241=:27571-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:25:25 -0500 (EST) From: John Curtis Subject: Re: Wisdom from Neal > >Boyd wrote: > >>>Please elucidate this, at least till it's an answer. What -part- of hard >> >>(pardon the bad form for replying to myself here) >>Wow! That was snippy. Sorry Neil, I hope you ignored this. I do not want to >>come off as one of the cacaphony of strident-to-shrill voices here. Let me >>reiterate that I -do- respect Mr. Heston and that I am reserving judgement >>on this whole gca/vp thing here. My point is that I'd like to hear him talk >>about it. > As a somewhat orthogonal view of this, my reluctance to get very enthusiastic about the NRA is based upon the view that the organization is showing all kinds of signs of late middle-age. The multiple copies of smiling Charlton Heston holding a blackpowder rifle aren't doing my house any good. The continuing stream of mass mailings are de-motivating for me. Using American Rifleman to fight for control over the board, etc. It all seems very tired. My strategy: baseline support for NRA (membership), more personal money and effort going to other organizations. I don't neccesarily believe that there is anything dark or sinister behind this, its kind of like hardening of the arteries, pretty much devoid of moral content, but debilitating nonetheless. jcurtis - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:35:44 -0600 From: neil@jove.geol.niu.edu (Neil Dickey) Subject: Re: Wisdom from Neal Skip Leuschner wrote in part: >I was trying to point out just how silly it is to indict people today >based on what they thought or did 30 years ago. I hope no one judges >me that way, but if I enter public life, they surely will. > >[ ... ] > >No offense, just one man's opinion. But I will say from long experience >that leadership is far more burden than glory, a fact which followers >ought to understand better, but can't until they've been there. When I lived in Arizona, in a small mountain town, I was elected to be president of the local school board and clerk of the newly-formed fire district. I can tell you from bitter personal experience what it is to have ones best, most public-spirited, motives vilified, at full volume, in public, by persons whose intellects would be difficult to find if you put them all together in a demitasse, and who exhibit no interest whatever in understanding exactly what it is you were in fact trying to say or do. That's democracy, and it's why the Founders of our nation gave us a constitutional republic. It's somewhat like posting to a mailing list, but you have to win an election in order to have it happen to you. The opinions which I have expressed herein are entirely my own, unless other- wise noted. No-one else should be held responsible for what I think. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- | D. N. Dickey | Virtuous motives, trammeled by inertia and | | Research Associate | timidity, are no match for armed and | | Northern Illinois Univ. | resolute wickedness. | | neil@earth.geol.niu.edu | - W. S. Churchill | | **Finger for public key** | | - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 08:33:41 -0600 (CST) From: Subject: Swing - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- [01] [Thought] Swing!!! By Casey J. Lartigue Jr. Korea Times 03/15/98 Being abroad makes it very easy to lose contact with friends. So I was absolutely delighted when a college friend of mine recently tracked me down. After a few minutes of catching up on the latest news, he asked me if I had heard about Terri. Yeah, I had heard. Terri, the self-described "country girl from Pennsylvania," was a fantastic reporter on our college newspaper. As good a reporter as she was, she never had a legitimate shot at the top spot on the paper. She had cystic fibrosis. The senior editors on the paper were worried because she was often in bad health, missing days at a time. One day she asked me if I could teach her how to play softball. Softball was the sport that everyone on the paper could play. Except, that is, for Terri. She could barely run 10 yards without start to cough. Still, she wanted to play at least once. It was the end of the semester and we had not scheduled any more games. Terri and I tried to arrange to go down to the softball field together but never found a time when we were both free. I really regretted that the following autumn when I learned she had checked into the hospital for an extended stay. Several of us made the trip down to the hospital to see her, worried that she might be dying. She did not even seem to notice that she was in a hospital. Between the coughs, she assured us that she would be back soon. She had specifically asked if I would be coming to see her. I was the only one who enjoyed listening to her complain about PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) and the AMA (American Medical Association). She blamed both for the deaths of many of the ``invisible victims'' of diseases. She hated the animal rights groups because of their opposition to animal testing. A former poster child for Cystic Fibrosis, she had memorized the names of numerous diseases that had been cured as a result of animal testing. She hated the American Medical Organization because of its opposition to the selling of organs. She was convinced that many more people would be willing to donate their organs if recipients could pay burial expenses for donors. ``Those doctors are playing God, deciding who lives and who dies.'' She asked me if I would still teach her how to play softball. Some of our colleagues from the paper broke down then. There she was, sick in the hospital, and she wanted to play softball. I promised her that I would teach her when she got healthy. She returned a few weeks later. She was upset because she knew that her long stay in the hospital had ruined her chances for a top spot on the paper. She was even angrier because I was hesitant to play softball with her. She would not talk to me for more than a minute or two. Every conversation quickly turned to, ``will you (cough) teach me how to play?''``Nope.'' I was afraid she might die on the field. Spring came and it was softball season. Terri seemed to be much healthier. After the date was set for our first game, Terri and I tried to find time to practice. Finally, it was game day, and we hadn't practiced. But there she was, ready to play, trying to figure out how to hold the bat. Just before the game started, she came to me, nervous: ``Coach, quick, teach me how to play.'' We were up to bat first, and, unfortunately for her, we had a great inning. She took a couple of weak practice swings behind the batting cage. Suddenly, she was up next. She was frantic: ``What should I do?'' ``Swing.'' She was livid. ``That's it! Swing! That's what you call coaching?'' She walked up to the plate, yelling at me the whole time. ``You liar, you promised me you were going to teach me. I'll never believe you again.'' The pitcher tossed the world's slowest pitch right down the middle. Strike one. Another pitch, and a swing. If it had been a movie, she would have hit a home run or a triple. She hit a weak dribbler that dropped right in front of home plate. I had forgotten to teach her one more thing: ``RUN!'' Glaring at me and holding the bat the whole way, she lumbered down to first base. She was halfway there when the ball arrived. Out by a Pennsylvania mile. Instead of celebrating her first at-bat, the ingrate came at me, yelling and laughing hysterically. As I dodged her punches, I shouted more advice:``Practice makes perfect.'' She played in several other games, even getting a ``hit'' in an intra-squad game. She had managed to actually hit the ball past the pitcher and directly to me at shortstop. I must have tossed the ball at least 10 yards over the first baseman's head. Terri ended up with a double. I will never forget that big grin on her face as she stood there on second base, mocking me for making such a bad throw. ``Those who can, do. Those who can't, play shortstop.'' Anyway, who cared. We were playing softball to have fun, and it was fun. That is my best memory of my three years of working with her. About three years ago when I was in the States to visit family, I happened to see her picture as I was thumbing through the Boston Globe. Incredible! Was it really her? If it had been a movie, it would have been a wonderful story about her getting the lung transplant. There she was, in the obituary section. She had taken a leave of absence shortly after she had started working at the Boston Globe. She had gone to England in search of a lung transplant. She had spent most of her life silently waiting for a lung transplant; she finally gave up on America and decided to wait somewhere else. For some reason, she chose England. She died there. The writer is a resident of Pundang, Songnam City, Korea. =============================================== - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:39:56 -0600 From: neil@jove.geol.niu.edu (Neil Dickey) Subject: Re: Wisdom from Neal "E.J. Totty" wrote: > Not so. It does follow: > 1. An inference or conclusion that does not >follow from the premises or evidence. 2. A statement that >does not follow logically from what preceded it. > > Therefore, if Jane Fonda were to run for NRA board >member, because she felt she could win, she would. That's not the line of the syllogism I originally read . . . > It therefore follows that it is possible, and it follows >the premise of what she did, is equivalent to what Heston did, >ie., he spoke against firearms, she has spoken against the >same. Therefore it follows. . . . which was: Jane Fonda behaved like a treasonous commie wretch at one point in her life, and still apparently holds the same, or similar, views. Charleton Heston came out in favor of a gun-control measure 30 years ago, and has since changed his mind. Therefore it does not follow -- we *were* talking about Mr. Heston's conversion. If you didn't state your syllogism clearly, that's not my problem. > Me: > What's the darned diff between a nuke war >and the loss of our Right? > > You: > Again, a non sequitur. > [...] > > Guffaw! > > Come now, Neil, If we were all eliminated in >one very large nuclear blast, we wouldn't have the need >of Rights. No kidding. So what's your point? > If were all deprived of our Rights, the only way out >is live free or die - that is, live free, or die fighting for them. > If you die, what need have you of Rights? This is certainly a rather simplistic analysis. History demonstrates that there are any number of alternatives. The British and the Australians have been deprived of their rights in living memory, and have neither died in great numbers nor risen up in arms. I doubt that they ever shall. Guess what: If it happened in this country, and it well may, there won't be any significant rebellion either. Americans enjoy their comfort too much, and rebellion is far too uncomfortable an enterprise for us to undertake. If you go out to live free or die, you'll die in the company of a stunningly small group of people. You've set up a false dichotomy. > [...] > You: > Insofar as Mr. Clinton may be as . . . > [...] > > WJC is a questionable character at best. > You can't tell me for a second, that if he really >felt that even 43 percent of the country backed him, >that he _would not_ nuke Iraq - or anyplace else that he >felt needed nuking. I certainly could, and would. This country doesn't rule the world in some sort of political vacuum. As a matter of fact, it doesn't rule the world at all. What is more, there are restraints upon Mr. Clinton other than his moral code, such as it may be. There are more than a few other countries and their populations, not to mention the Congress, who would also have to be convinced it was a good idea. In any event, the country didn't back Clinton when he wanted to use *conventional* bombs on Iraq, why on earth would it back his use of nuclear weapons? Mr. Clinton is far too worried about his place in history to do something like that, even if he *did* have the backing of the nation. It just isn't going to happen. The next nuke that gets thrown will be from the inventory of some terrorist group, not from ours. > Me: > As far as I'm concerned, if what you did thirty >years ago won't fly in a government position in the >U.S. of A, what the hey is the difference at the NRA??? > Did we all of a sudden get a liberal line on >things here? > > You: > I don't understand your meaning in these two sentences. > What Clinton did 30 years ago in Moscow obviously didn't >keep him out of a government job, whatever one thinks of that. > Just as obviously, what *I* think of that isn't particularly >relevant. The fact is: There he is. > [...] > > Ya know, Neil? That's one of the neatest sidestep jobs >I've seen in years! Are you sure you not related to some politician? The fact that you wrote something incomprehensible makes me a politician? Sorry, you'll have to do better than that. > Billy J was _elected_ to the job, not hired, not appointed, >and not advanced to it. So? We, the people, interviewed him and then gave him a government job that comes with the highest security clearance in the land. > Tell me that he would have been allowed _any_ clearance >to access classified data in _any_ military position, and I'll tell you >that either the atmosphere for clearances has changed, or I need to >reevaluate what the U.S. Government security manual has to say. The requirements for clearance *have* changed. Lobbyists for China get them routinely now, without vetting. Hadn't you heard? > [...] > I didn't use the word "extremist," by the way, it was "purist." > [...] > > I never said you did. > I was referring to Mr. Heston's own remarks at the Seattle >convention. Don't you remember them? It wasn't at all clear from your text that you were referring to his remarks at the convention. > Insofar as being one myself, I accept that others feel that >way about me, in the consideration that I do not accept the current >definition of liberty as what some bureaucrat says it is. > I am vociferous in that regard, and while I'm neither proud >of it, nor carrying my heart around on my sleeve, I do take advantage >of every opportunity to assess others of our losses when the matters >of liberty arise. I will grant that you are vociferous. > [...] > Again, you're welcome to your opinion, but advocating >unregulated private ownership of machineguns is probably one of >the quickest routes to political oblivion that I can think of offhand. > It's right next to repealing the vote for women, but I'm not >sure whether it's the near or the far side. > [...] > > Well, Neil, then I guess your advocating of Constitutional >liberties is nothing more than window dressing? Do try not to be a twit. > Extremism is what defines the _limits_ of our >community. Obviously you have fallen prey to the "kinder, gentler" >message, ie., let's not be too difficult. You clearly have misunderstood. Based on the tenor of your discourse thus far I doubt that there is any point in trying to explain, but, briefly stated, my position is this: There is a huge gulf between what I would like to see done, and what is possible. At each step, I work to achieve the possible and then improve it at the next step. Kindly do not misrepresent me in the future. > The extremists are who got us into this current socialistic >orgasm of liberties taking. That's simply not true. The appeal was to that vast sea of middle-of- the-road people, who "just wanted to do something good." We got where we are because most of the people in the country wanted us to go this way, whether or not they really understood the implications. Most people simply don't care about the issues which mean so much to you. Al Salvi just won the Republican primary for Secretary of State in Illinois, and it wasn't close. > If you can't be equally extreme in gaining them back, then >you may as well, park your butt on a park bench and retire from the >scene. Another false dichotomy. One can be diligent, persistent *and* successful without being extreme. > Politicians understand only one thing: force. > The forces that got them into office. > The forces that flood their mail boxes with opinions. > The forces that express rage over a lousy vote. > The forces that will remove them from office, for >having voted the wrong way. > When the number of letters and phone calls that >are in *extreme* opposition to his current leanings, are what >causes him/her "to see the light", then the 'unseen forces' win >the day. Extreme opposition is dismissed out of hand because the majority of people aren't extreme and view extremists with considerable alarm. There is no possible way anyone could succeed with such an approach. The Libertarian Party is living proof that the method is doomed to failure. > [...] > This is patently repulsive, even as a rhetorical response, >and not worth further comment. > [...] > > And, here I thought you had a sense of humor . . . It stops short of the puerile. The opinions which I have expressed herein are entirely my own, unless other- wise noted. No-one else should be held responsible for what I think. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- | D. N. Dickey | Virtuous motives, trammeled by inertia and | | Research Associate | timidity, are no match for armed and | | Northern Illinois Univ. | resolute wickedness. | | neil@earth.geol.niu.edu | - W. S. Churchill | | **Finger for public key** | | - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:42:38 -0600 From: neil@jove.geol.niu.edu (Neil Dickey) Subject: Re: Wisdom from Neal roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) wrote: [ ... Snip, my comment that I understand most Marines don't like Ollie North ... ] >Couldn't say for sure, but when his show was still on KVI a month or two >ago, I caught it from time to time, and most of the Marines I heard on it >seemed pretty supportive..... It could be. My information comes from some Marines I know out at my sportsmen's club. We're probably both seeing a biased population. The opinions which I have expressed herein are entirely my own, unless other- wise noted. No-one else should be held responsible for what I think. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- | D. N. Dickey | Virtuous motives, trammeled by inertia and | | Research Associate | timidity, are no match for armed and | | Northern Illinois Univ. | resolute wickedness. | | neil@earth.geol.niu.edu | - W. S. Churchill | | **Finger for public key** | | - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:45:23 -0600 From: neil@jove.geol.niu.edu (Neil Dickey) Subject: Re: Wisdom from Neal roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) wrote in part: >With respect to the Knox/Heston debate, Knox is pretty much a known quantity >whether you like him or not. I've seen some good points and bad points made >and for what it's worth, he genreally manages to hold his own. While in >some respects, the same could be said of Heston, I get the feeling that he's >a, "Soup Kitchen Christian", (in it for the bucks). It's been some time >since he last made any films, and he just might be feeling the pinch. Just a quibble on that last sentence: He's made some specials for cable TV recently that I saw on the History Channel, and had a part in Kenneth Brannaugh's (sp?) recent production of "Hamlet." The opinions which I have expressed herein are entirely my own, unless other- wise noted. No-one else should be held responsible for what I think. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- | D. N. Dickey | Virtuous motives, trammeled by inertia and | | Research Associate | timidity, are no match for armed and | | Northern Illinois Univ. | resolute wickedness. | | neil@earth.geol.niu.edu | - W. S. Churchill | | **Finger for public key** | | - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:20:49 -0600 (CST) From: Subject: London Times report on Wakefield Study (fwd) My daughter has Autism. FYI Paul Watson - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 -0500 From: Nagla & Alvin To: grand1ka@airmail.net, Cc: ; Subject: London Times report on Wakefield Study I ran across this post and lots of others disscussing this new research thought you guys would be interest. Nagla Return-Path: >X-Sender: lwo@mail.airmail.net >Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:54:11 -0600 >Reply-To: SJU Autism and Developmental Disablities List > >Sender: SJU Autism and Developmental Disablities List > >From: Walter & Susan Owens >Subject: London Times report on Wakefield Study >To: AUTISM@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU > >>From the London Times: > >February 27 1998 > BRITAIN > > > > Disease discovery offers hope for damaged babies, writes Ian > Murray > > Measles vaccine's link with autism > studied > > A POSSIBLE link between autism and the multiple MMR vaccine > is to be investigated by an independent panel set up by the > Medical Research Council. > > The investigation has been agreed because of the publication in > The Lancet today of a study among 12 autistic children who > developed the condition soon after being given the vaccine > against measles, mumps and rubella. > > The authors of the report, from the Royal Free Hospital Medical > School in Hampstead, North London, admit that their study does > not prove there is a link. However, they say that they have > discovered a previously unknown bowel disease that can be > caused by the measles virus, which in turn can cause autism. > > All of the 13 researchers involved insist that measles > vaccinations must continue but some, led by Andy Wakefield, > reader in experimental gastroenterology who was in charge of the > study, think that the combined MMR vaccine should be > abandoned until research can prove it is safe. Instead he wants > vaccinations to be given separately for each of the three illnesses > over a year. "In all conscience I cannot support the idea of using > all three vaccines together," he said yesterday. > > Arie Zuckerman, Dean of the medical school, disagreed: "If this > were to precipitate a scare that reduced the rate of immunisation, > children will start dying from measles." > > The study found that all 12 children were suffering from a new > bowel infection similar to Crohn's disease and irritable bowel > syndrome, and there was research that showed both of these > conditions were caused by the measles virus. If the bowel is > damaged during a critical period of brain growth then it may be > unable to cope with the opiates formed in the intestine from foods > such as milk and wheat. These opiates can then get into the brain > where they may influence behaviour, stunt brain growth and > development. > > The first symptoms of autism usually occur in a child's second > year, at the same time MMR is normally given, so this may be a > false association. "Nonetheless, we are concerned that MMR > may give rise to this complication in a small number of children," > the reasearchers say. > > Whether the link is shown or not, the new bowel syndrome is the > first to be associated with autism and treating it could be an > important breakthrough in controlling this condition. > > An editorial in The Lancet advises treating the study with > caution. There has to be a proper system for distinguishing cause > and effect from medicines, it says. "Without such a system, > vaccine safety concerns may snowball into social tragedies when > the media and the public confuse association with causality and > shun immunisation." > > The Health Department said the report showed no satisfactory > evidence that the MMR vaccine caused autism or the bowel > disease. "MMR vaccine should continue to be used as > recommended." > > Dr Wakefield said that since preparing the paper last August his > team had seen 48 other children with behavioural problems that > started after an MMR vaccination. Of these, 46 had the new > bowel condition. "We were amazed there were so many," he said. > "We expected there to be only one or two." > > Inoculation given to a million babies a year > > A combined vaccination against measles, mumps and rubella - > known as MMR - was introduced in Britain in October 1988, after > being widely used for several years in America (Ian Murray > writes). > > In September 1992, after research linked a cluster of cases of > meningitis in Nottingham to batches of the mumps strain in the > vaccination, products made by two of the three manufacturers, > SmithKline Beecham and Merieux, were withdrawn. In 1994, these > two manufacturers supplied measles and rubella strains for a > double vaccination programme, called Operation Safeguard, > introduced by the Government. About seven million > schoolchildren were vaccinated, of whom 530 were said to have > suffered severe side-effects. > > Since 1992 all the triple vaccines have been produced by Merck > Sharpe and Dohme, with about a million babies a year being > immunised in this way. MMR is routinely offered to children in > their second year but can be given at any time after this. Those > who have not had it before can be given it at the same time as > their pre-school diphtheria, tetanus and polio boosters. In 1995 > the Royal Free Hospital published research in The Lancet linking > the inflammatory stomach condition, Crohn's disease, to the > vaccination. The publicity led to a 2 per cent drop in the number > of children being immunised. > > Separate vaccinations against all three diseases have been > available since the Second World War. > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >------ >Listmates: You can subscribe to the London Times on the web. It is a great >site, has free access and is well-indexed. >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > (Walter & Susan Owens) > lwo@iadfw.net > Dallas, Texas USA > > Alvin Crofts II amc2@flash.net Visit the ASCC web page at http://www.flash.net/~amc2 - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:23:11 -0600 (CST) From: Subject: The MMR Controversy (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 -0500 From: Nagla & Alvin To: grand1ka@airmail.net, Cc: ; Subject: The MMR Controversy >Return-Path: >Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:59:17 +0000 >Reply-To: "P.SHATTOCK" >Sender: SJU Autism and Developmental Disablities List > >From: "P.SHATTOCK" >Subject: The MMR Controversy >To: AUTISM@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU > >I apologise for stepping into this debate at such a late stage but I have >been following events from Madrid (en Espanol and via Satellite TV) and >have only just had the opportunity to read the papers and the debate on >the list. > >Perhaps some of the following comments have already been recorded here >but may, in any case, be worth repeating. > >As is well known, Andrew Wakefield is a paediatric gastro-enterologist of >repute. He was struck by the numbers of young children who were appearing >at his hospital with the symptoms of Crohn's Disease which had, until >recently, been a very unusual disorder in children. When he investigated the >bowels he found what looked like evidence of viral involvement and having >studied all the available texts came upon a number of possibilities and >measles was one of these. He (and his team) performed gut biopsies on a >number of these subjects and reported the presence of evidence of measles >infection. Since these cases had all arisen since the introduction of the >triple MMR he hypothesised that the measles element of this could be a >factor. > >This made the press and was spotted by a number of parents of children >with autism. A number of these are known to me and always been convinced >that the MMR triple vaccine precipitated the onset of symptoms and, in >particular, the loss of bowel function. They contacted Wakefield and >persuaded him to look at their children. At first he was not keen and >wondered whether or not it was ethical to examine children, from whom it >is difficult to get informed consent in this way. However, if these had >been asymptomatic children who had lost bowel function in this way then >they would have been examined. Is it right that children with >disabilities should be penalised by not having their symptoms thoroughly >investigated? (His point not mine) > >The first of the 5 papers came out last week after very severe scrutiny. >Normally papers are sent to 2 reviewers; this was sent to 4. It was >accompanied in the Lancet by a hostile editorial and a brief report >appearing to cast doubt on Wakefield's previous papers linking the MMR to >Crohn's (and IBS). What a coincidence! > >In fact, in spite of the fact that his data are actually quite good, >Wakefield's claims are comparatively understated. The bottom line is >"Further investigations are needed to examine this syndrome and its >possible relation to this vaccine." > >I hope no-one would argue with that. > >Surely no-one thinks that these results should have been suppressed. I >know that the researchers went through a lot of soul searching on this >one. The results were not what they wanted or expected and they have, in >my opinion, acted totally correctly throughout. The parents of the >children who were studied also deserve credit for keeping quiet in spite >of various inducements from the press. > >I don't have any real quarrels with the editorial. There are some very >good points and some rather silly ones too but it would take a very big >effort to satisfy all the requirements of the editorial and make a 100% >watertight case. It requires a proper investigation of individual cases >and not just statistical manipulations of epidemiological data. > >The other article, by Afzal, Minor, Begley et al. and entitled "Absence >of measles-virus genome in inflammatory bowel disease" is a fascinating >piece of work in that it has been quoted as destroying the Wakefield >argument about the role of the MMR in Crohn's disease (and IBS etc) >whereas it actually does completely the opposite. It adds credence to it. >In the original Wakefield paper, he reported on children who had been >exposed to the MMR vaccine and measles particles had been found. Afzal >looked at a sample of people with Crohn's disease and, using a very >sensitive technique, did not find any evidence of measles of any sort in >the guts. > >Interestingly, the ages of Afzal's patients are not (as far as I can see) >quoted but there are clues in the text. Only "Five of the thirty patients >had a history of measles vaccination" and since all 30 had antibodies we >can assume they must have been exposed to wild measles strains at some >time. Since about 1988 we have had vaccination figures of around 90% (?) >with the MMR and before that for (and I am guessing here) we used the >monovalent measles vaccine. It seems most unlikely, therefore,that this >was a population of children. > >Therefore: Adults with Crohn's Disease (and no MMR) = No Measles in guts; > Children with Crohn's (and MMR) = Measles in guts. > >Their concluding sentence was "We concluded that with the best available >RT-PCR-nested PC technology, measles virus genome is not present in gut >mucosal biopsies from patients with Crohn's disease or ulcerative >colitis." It seems a rather dogmatic statement compared to Wakefield's. > >This does not prove that the MMR caused the problem but it certainly does >not prove that it doesn't and yet that is how it is being used. > >No-one doubts that measles, mumps and rubella can be life threatening and >serious diseases. It may well be that vaccination is the best way to >control them but let's just be sure that the methods we use are as safe >as they possibly can be. > >Apologies for the length - congratulations on getting to the end. > >Paul Shattock > > Alvin Crofts II amc2@flash.net Visit the ASCC web page at http://www.flash.net/~amc2 - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #91 ************************