From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #138 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Tuesday, May 26 1998 Volume 02 : Number 138 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 16:09:06 -0700 From: Boyd Kneeland Subject: Re: Dancing in the Blood of the Victims Yeah, well at the risk of painting a big red MS target on my face the first thing I noticed there was the page was a ".asp". I don't plan on looking for my post there for a couple days. Boyd (I -like- NT, it keeps support people like me paid) Kneeland At 5:46 PM +0500 5/23/98, Brad Alpert wrote: >> Brad, I hope you send your post in it's entirety to BBC's discussion page >> (see bills post about the poll). Boyd > >Thanks Boyd, but my experience (and others, now) with that site is >that it won't accept any new pro-gun postings. What has been your >experience with it? > >I composed a statement on it last night and when I submitted it, >there was a network error and my post was gone. Others who have >successfully gotten past that point are still waiting to see their >posts on the site. > >I think it's a rigged deal. > >Brad > > >- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 18:21:02 +0500 From: "Brad Alpert" <1911a1@gte.net> Subject: Re: Dancing in the Blood of the Victims > Yeah, well at the risk of painting a big red MS target on my face the first > thing I noticed there was the page was a ".asp". I don't plan on looking > for my post there for a couple days. > Boyd (I -like- NT, it keeps support people like me paid) Kneeland I just ran across this info, it's interesting. Looks like "rigged" pegged it, eh? > I, too, went to the BBC Site, as soon as I saw yesterday's alert > here on PRN, and found the same results you have reported above. > > I went there again just a few minutes ago to check the voting trend > again and was disturbed by what I saw. > > Consequently, I sent the following to the BBC email address: > > > Subject: Talking Point > > Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 11:59:20 -0700 > > From: "David M. Doyle" > > To: newsonline@bbc.co.uk > > I too sent them a feedback asking them whats up. I also left another long post and this time I noticed their web page said all post are read before being made public. Guess this is a quicker way to say Censorship in their country. John voyager@mo.net - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 18:53:47 -0500 From: Jacques Tucker Subject: Re: Dancing in the Blood of the Victims >I too sent them a feedback asking them whats up. I also left another >long post and this time I noticed their web page said all post are >read before being made public. Guess this is a quicker way to say >Censorship in their country. Well, at least it's only a two day weekend in the UK. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 19:00:47 -0500 From: Jacques Tucker Subject: Re: Help needed for MO CCW! Wanna help Missouri get the CCW referendum passed? http://www.wmsa.net/ > Might I suggest. For those out there who have decided not to support >the NRA. For every beg letter you recieve from the NRA send a donation >to one of these grass roots organization to fight the fight. Donate AT >LEAST two days a month to local political activities in the field. That's >16 hrs a month. Like walk for a candidate or address issues at your local >city/county meetings. Sitting at home or office reading this list don't >count. Later this morning I will be manning a table at the gun show to >pitch for Mike Carona for Sheriff. IMNSHO this is the most important >race in our county for the pro-gun effort. We need to elect pro gun >people at the local level as they are the federal candidates of the >future. We need to see to it our congress critters get reelected and the >opponents get tough sledding. We need to make the anti gunners , "feel >the heat". Later, after the June primary I will be working for Boxers >opponent Daryl Issa. To Quote one of Daryl's more quotable quotes, >"the Second Amendment is not about keeping arms, It's about BEARING >arm's. It's not about hiding guns under your bed." > >Roger Wilson >Guns Save Lives >rwilson45@juno.com > > >_____________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > >-- > (Roger K Wilson) > AirPower Information Services BBS * 610-259-2193 > http://www.airpower.com Telnet://airpower.dyn.ml.org > > - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 May 98 16:27:29 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Fratrum: Critical Infrastructure: President's Naval Academy Address (fwd) On May 23, Eugene W. Gross wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] President Clinton's May 22 address to the U.S. Naval Academy warned against our vulnerability to attacks on our infrastructure. What is at risk? He listed them: "our critical infrastructures --our power systems, water supplies, police, fire, and medical services, air traffic control, financial services, telephone systems, and computer networks." In short, everything that is presently threatened by the Millennium Bug. These attacks are referred to as "cyber." They are almost always discussed in terms of deliberate threats. They are planned attacks. What is rarely discussed is the reality of y2k and its effects on all computer-interlinked systems. The same kinds of failures that are listed in discussions of cyber warfare will be the effects of the millennium bug. The same kinds of military strategies for one will be applied to the other. The threat is explained as military in nature. The response is also seen as military. The meaning should be clear: a military response to a civil breakdown is martial law. The voters are being prepared to accept martial law, no later than January, 2000. The government's goal is to create a new national order: the ever popular "business-government partnership." President Clinton announced his variation: "Because so many key components of our society are operated by the private sector, we must create a genuine public-private partnership to protect America in the 21st century." There can be no partnership between business and civil government. The relationship is always hierarchical. The State has the legitimate power of violence; the State is on top. That is why we need business-government suspicion, not a partnership. Every reason is used to push private citizens into a subordinate alliance with the State. The Year 2000 will be used to justify this move, but it will ultimately destroy it. The welfare/warfare State has less than two years to go. A warfare State may replace it in the cities until it runs out of resources, but the welfare State is doomed. The two missing digits are like two missing eyes. * * * * * * * * As we approach the 21st century, our foes have extended the fields of battle -- from physical space to cyberspace; from the world's vast bodies of water to the complex workings of our own human bodies. Rather than invading our beaches or launching bombers, these adversaries may attempt cyberattacks against our critical military systems and our economic base. Or they may deploy compact and relatively cheap weapons of mass destruction -- not just nuclear, but also chemical or biological, to use disease as a weapon of war. Sometimes the terrorists and criminals act alone. But increasingly, they are interconnected, and sometimes supported by hostile countries. If our children are to grow up safe and free, we must approach these new 21st century threats with the same rigor and determination we applied to the toughest security challenges of this century. We are taking strong steps against these threats today. We've improved antiterrorism cooperation with other countries; tightened security for our troops, our diplomats, our air travelers; strengthened sanctions on nations that support terrorists; given our law enforcement agencies new tools. We broke up terrorist rings before they could attack New York's Holland Tunnel, the United Nations, and our airlines. We have captured and brought to justice many of the offenders. But we must do more. Last week, I announced America's first comprehensive strategy to control international crime and bring criminals, terrorists and money launderers to justice. Today, I come before you to announce three new initiatives -- the first broadly directed at combatting terrorism; the other two addressing two potential threats from terrorists and hostile nations, attacks on our computer networks and other critical systems upon which our society depends, and attacks using biological weapons. On all of these efforts, we will need the help of the Navy and the Marines. Your service will be critical in combatting these new challenges. To make these three initiatives work we must have the concerted efforts of a whole range of federal agencies -- from the Armed Forces to law enforcement to intelligence to public health. I am appointing a National Coordinator for Security, Infrastructure Protection, and Counterterrorism, to bring the full force of all our resources to bear swiftly and effectively. First, we will use our new integrated approach to intensify the fight against all forms of terrorism -- to capture terrorists, no matter where they hide; to work with other nations to eliminate terrorist sanctuaries overseas; to respond rapidly and effectively to protect Americans from terrorism at home and abroad. Second, we will launch a comprehensive plan to detect, deter, and defend against attacks on our critical infrastructures --our power systems, water supplies, police, fire, and medical services, air traffic control, financial services, telephone systems, and computer networks. Just 15 years ago, these infrastructures -- some within government, some in the private sector -- were separate and distinct. Now, they are linked together over vast computer-electronic networks, greatly increasing our productivity, but also making us much more vulnerable to disruption. Three days ago, we saw the enormous impact of a single failed electronic link when a satellite malfunction disabled pagers, ATMs, credit card systems, and TV and radio networks all around the world. Beyond such accidents, intentional attacks against our critical systems already are underway. Hackers break into government and business computers. They can raid banks, run up credit card charges, extort money by threats to unleash computer viruses. If we fail to take strong action, then terrorists, criminals and hostile regimes could invade and paralyze these vital systems, disrupting commerce, threatening health, weakening our capacity to function in a crisis. In response to these concerns, I established a commission chaired by Retired General Tom Marsh, to assist the vulnerability of our critical infrastructures. They returned with a pointed conclusion: our vulnerability, particularly to cyberattacks, is real and growing. And they made important recommendations that we will now implement to put us ahead of the danger curve. We have the best trained, best equipped best prepared Armed Forces in history. But, as ever, we must be ready to fight the next war, not the last one. And our military, as strong as it is, cannot meet these challenges alone. Because so many key components of our society are operated by the private sector, we must create a genuine public-private partnership to protect America in the 21st century. Together, we can find and reduce the vulnerabilities to attack in all critical sectors, develop warning systems including a national center to alert us to attacks, increase our cooperation with friendly nations, and create the means to minimize damage and rapidly recover in the event attacks occur. We can -- and we must -- make these critical systems more secure, so that we can be more secure. Link: http://www.whitehouse.gov/WH/New/html/19980522-4986.html [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 May 98 16:32:42 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: Fratrum: Fw: [FP] FW: FIRST UNION BANK ROBS CUSTOMER (fwd) On May 23, Boyd Kneeland wrote: >What bank was the check drawn on?? > >I think it's a hard case in todays world to argue that presenting checks on >a third bank should be easy (IMHO this is wrong, Im not excusing it just >stating reality as seen through my bottle bottom glasses). But as I >understand it (and it's unclear now that I reread it) this was a check >written on the bank to wich it was presented. IE payor handed our guy a >first union check. Is that true? If not then he should have been talking to >the payor rather then trying to enforce the payors contract with a 3rd >member bank of the check clearing system. > >If on the other hand, this was a first union check written by a first union >customer to a non first union recipient (our guy) then the whole thing is >even scarier. That's the way I read it. > If refusing to be thumb printed is probable cause for >detention, then I know what me and my lawyer are doing teusday afternoon. >Can anyone confirm this post? Anyone know what the fellow was -charged- >with that allowed him to be cuffed? What city in SC was this branch in? (We >need phone numbers here for the branch, the PD and the district attorney.) >It would be great if something important like this came with more data. > >Boyd (I do not argue contract law with bank tellers) Kneeland I'll try and check up on that, but try to write the people listed as sources in the post, it might be quicker..... - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 17:04:10 -0700 From: Kenneth Mitchell Subject: Re: Dancing in the Blood of the Victims At 05:46 PM 5/23/98 +0500, you wrote: >> Brad, I hope you send your post in it's entirety to BBC's discussion page >> (see bills post about the poll). Boyd > >Thanks Boyd, but my experience (and others, now) with that site is >that it won't accept any new pro-gun postings. What has been your >experience with it? > >I composed a statement on it last night and when I submitted it, >there was a network error and my post was gone. Others who have >successfully gotten past that point are still waiting to see their >posts on the site. > >I think it's a rigged deal. I have to agree; my post there hasn't appeared in 3 hours. - ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken Mitchell Citrus Heights, CA kmitchel@gvn.net 916-955-9152 (vm) 916-729-0966 (fax) - --------------http://www.gvn.net/~creative/------------------------ "DeForest has said ... that it would be possible to transmit the human voice across the Atlantic before many years. Based on these absurd and deliberately misleading statements, the misguided public has been persuaded to buy stock in his company." U.S. District Attorney, during trial of vacuum tube inventor Lee DeForest - ------------------------------------------------------------------- !yaw gnorw eht su gnikat si noitartsinimdA notnilC ehT - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 May 98 17:46:26 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Fratrum: Support this! (fwd) On May 23, Ed Wolfe wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Congressional Record - May 20, 1998 Rep. James Traficant (D-OH) SUPPORT H.R. 692 TO APPOINT INDEPENDENT COUNSEL TO INVESTIGATE GOVERNMENT WRONGDOING (House of Representatives - May 20, 1998) [Page: H 3492] (Mr. TRAFICANT asked and was given permission to address the House for one minute and to revise and extend his remarks.) Mr. TRAFICANT. "Mr. Speaker, Federal agents killed his dog, they killed his 14-year-old son, and they killed his wife. Federal agents said they did not like his politics. Randy Weaver is a white separatist. My colleagues do not like his politics, and I do not like Weaver's politics either, but that is no reason for the government to gun down his family. Let me tell my colleagues something. This does not sound like the FBI of Efrem Zimbalist, Jr. This sounds like the KGB of Joseph Stalin. To make matters worse, a Federal judge dropped all charges against the FBI agent who shot Vicky Weaver right between the eyes while clutching her infant son. [Daughter. -E.W.] Shame, my colleagues. Congress, the Justice Department investigates themselves and then they cover their assets every time. We are a bunch of fools. It is time to put our government in order. Support H.R. 692 and put an independent counsel on these types of cases. Shame, Congress. No American family should be gunned down." [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 May 98 20:00:22 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: [AR15-L] Re: Let Teachers CCW (fwd) On May 25, Real Name: wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Hi, http://www.mclaughlin.com/ The Mclaughlin Group, PBS program . Go vote on whether China-Gate is Treason . Voting is running 60%-80% Treason, by age group . Spread this URL far, and wide . Stay Stronger, Ken. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 98 13:40:21 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Fratrum: [Fwd: Prozac Implicated in Oregon School Shooting] (fwd) On May 25, Ron Marsh wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Received: from bruce26.thnet.com (bruce26.thnet.com [206.98.115.126]) by vader.thnet.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA22230; Mon, 25 May 1998 09:20:59 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199805251420.JAA22230@vader.thnet.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Distribution" Organization: The Vigo Examiner To: Distribution Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 09:14:47 +0000 Subject: Prozac Implicated in Oregon School Shooting Reply-to: Distribution@Vigo-Examiner.com Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Prozac Implicated in Oregon School Shooting by MAUREEN SIELAFF Maureen@Vigo-Examiner.com The Vigo Examiner SPRINGFIELD, OREGON - Before going on a wild shooting spree at his Springfield Oregon high school that left 2 dead and 22 injured, Kip Kinkel had been attending anger control classes and was taking a prescription drug called Prozac. This particular drug has factored in almost all wild shooting sprees which have taken place in the last ten years. Eli Lilly of Indianapolis, Indiana was recently sued over the homicidal tendencies this drug is alleged to induce in patients. Prozac is commonly given to youth as a treatment for depression. In the book "Prozac and other Psychiatric Drugs," by Lewis A. Opler, M.D., Ph.D., the following side effects are listed for Prozac: apathy; hallucinations; hostility; irrational ideas; and paranoid reactions, antisocial behavior; hysteria; and suicidal thoughts. The following information is taken from form PV 2472 DPP, prepared by Dista Products Company, a division of Eli Lilly and Company of Indianapolis, Indiana. It was last revised on June 12, 1997, and can be found in each package of Prozac. Anxiety and Insomnia: In clinical trials for the depressed, held in the U.S., 12% to 16% of those tested reported increased anxiety, nervousness, or insomnia. In similar trials for those diagnosed with obsessive-compulsive disorders insomnia was reported in 28% of the patients, and anxiety was reported in 14%. Altered Appetite and Weight: In controlled U.S. clinics 11% of patients treated with Prozac reported an anorexic appetite. However, only rarely have patients discontinued treatment with Prozac because of this symptom. Those diagnosed with OCD, again, came in at a higher rate of 17%. Other symptoms: (considered to be frequent by Dista) chills, hemorrhage and hypertension of the cardiovascular system, nausea and vomiting, agitation, amnesia, confusion, emotional liability, sleep disorder, ear pain, taste perversion, and tininitus. The outcome classification (%) on the Clinical Global Impression improvement scale based on two studies showed that of those who took 40mg of Prozac 0% were reported to be no worse, 33% showed no change, 28% were minimally improved, 27% much improved, and 12% very much improved. Meaning that of those tested only 39% showed any reasonable improvement from taking this drug. Though many are demanding stricter gun control laws as a solution to this sudden increase in homicidal shootings, these events do not appear to correlate to a sudden increase in firearm ownership. But when the percentage of these killers that are on Prozac is compared to the percentage of the general public on Prozac, a very disturbing pattern emerges. Though Prozac does indeed help many people suffering from depression, it appears that it does indeed also drive many into homicidal rages. When Kip Kinkel's home was investigated several bombs that he had constructed were discovered. With a ban on bombs already in place, he nevertheless managed to have several in his possession that he might well have taken to school instead of guns. So the question arises, if guns had been banned like bombs, would the danger have been averted? The unmistakable answer is that it would not. And with the shootings correlating far more closely with the psychiatric drug Prozac, why is the public put in such great danger by its widespread use, while efforts are directed instead toward something that shows no correlation? On Tuesday, May 19th, Kip Kinkel's father took away his rifle, after finding that Kip was taking the gun out of the house on unsupervised ventures into the woods. The next day, Wednesday, May 20th, 15 year old Kip Kinkel showed up at Thurston High School with a dangerous attitude and a newly purchased stolen gun that he had gotten from another student. A security guard caught wind of the arrangement and the two boys were arrested, booked, and then released to their parents. On Thursday, May 21st, Kip Kinkel walked out of his home after shooting his parents with the rifle his dad had taken away from him and proceeded to the high school. He walked into the cafeteria and fired off 51 rounds of ammunition which resulted in the deaths of two of the students and injuries of various degrees to 22 other students ages 14 through 18. The onslaught ended when one of the wounded students, a 17 year old wrestler, tackled Kip, and other students piled on top of Kip to help restrain him. Those who have known Kip Kinkel present very differing portrayals of his life and his demeanor on an everyday basis. Gun control advocates are outraged that "a gun" has again taken the lives of innocent citizens. Others are saying that Kip Kinkel is just an average kid who went about on a daily basis doing stunts that average kids do. Still other's paint a depressing picture of a child and a family in crisis and at the end of their ropes, and of a young boy who for years had displayed his unhappiness, albeit apparently reasonless, by doing acts which should have been considered highly questionable and certainly not normal. A close family friend told reporters that Bill Kinkel had begun confiding in him about four years ago about severe behavioral problems with his son. The friend stated that the boy's parent sought counseling and attempted to maintain a very structured home life. "As parents, they just kept trying." The day before the shooting spree Mr. Kinkel contacted the Oregon National Guard to inquire about having his son enrolled in the Guard's Youth Challenge Program. An official with the Guard stated that Mr. Kinkel seemed at the end of his rope, and that he wanted to get his son "mainstreamed back into school." The Guard YCP takes in children who "are on the razor's edge, ready to fall on the dark side." Obviously Kip Kinkel was already over the edge. His attitude regarding life and his subsequent behavior was irrationally ignored by not only his closest friends but also the teachers, the school nurse, school management, and police officials. Most had the attitude that he was just a kid, that no one needed to be concerned. But how could this be? All were well aware of the boys bizarre behavioral patterns. Although they might say what a nice kid they thought he was, most can follow up with one story or another of comments and actions that definitely describe a boy that is anything but "average". Apparently it is easier to drug our youth, to fill their bodies with drugs that many times have worse side effects on their minds and spirits than the problems they have. You name the attitude and there is a drug to supposedly help or cure it. It may be time to take the War On Drugs to where it can really be effective; getting these society cop-out drugs out of our children's lives. It may be time we rise and help our children through productive activities and quit drugging them senseless. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.Vigo-Examiner.com Enjoy a free 90 day trial subscription to The Vigo Examiner. You will recieve one to three of our top stories or editorials each day. Send your subscription request, and all other communication to Editor@Vigo-Examiner.com. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 15:06:53 -0700 From: Boyd Kneeland Subject: Re: Fratrum: [Fwd: Prozac Implicated in Oregon School Shooting] (fwd) Of course, one other thing all Prozac users have in common is cyclical depression. While I'm not going to leap into the Prozac argument on the side opposite the Scientologists, I am willing to state that it appears logical to me that as a generalization, clinically depressed people might on the whole have some slightly greater tendency to extreme expressions of frustration then the population as a whole. That or it's the freemasons ; ) Whatever. B - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 22:00:36 -0700 (PDT) From: sabutigo@teleport.com Subject: Re: Fratrum: [Fwd: Prozac Implicated in Oregon School Shooting] (fwd) Can anyone supply any information on the other shootings where Prozac was involved? At 01:40 PM 5/25/98 PST, you wrote: >On May 25, Ron Marsh wrote: > >[-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] > >Received: from bruce26.thnet.com (bruce26.thnet.com [206.98.115.126]) by vader.thnet.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA22230; Mon, 25 May 1998 09:20:59 -0500 (EST) >Message-Id: <199805251420.JAA22230@vader.thnet.com> >Comments: Authenticated sender is >From: "Distribution" >Organization: The Vigo Examiner >To: Distribution >Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 09:14:47 +0000 >Subject: Prozac Implicated in Oregon School Shooting >Reply-to: Distribution@Vigo-Examiner.com >Priority: normal >X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) > > Prozac Implicated in Oregon School Shooting > >by MAUREEN SIELAFF >Maureen@Vigo-Examiner.com >The Vigo Examiner > >SPRINGFIELD, OREGON - Before going on a wild shooting spree at his >Springfield Oregon high school that left 2 dead and 22 injured, Kip Kinkel >had been attending anger control classes and was taking a prescription drug >called Prozac. This particular drug has factored in almost all wild >shooting sprees which have taken place in the last ten years. Eli Lilly of >Indianapolis, Indiana was recently sued over the homicidal tendencies this >drug is alleged to induce in patients. > Prozac is commonly given to youth as a treatment for depression. In >the book "Prozac and other Psychiatric Drugs," by Lewis A. Opler, M.D., >Ph.D., the following side effects are listed for Prozac: apathy; >hallucinations; hostility; irrational ideas; and paranoid reactions, >antisocial behavior; hysteria; and suicidal thoughts. > The following information is taken from form PV 2472 DPP, prepared by >Dista Products Company, a division of Eli Lilly and Company of >Indianapolis, Indiana. It was last revised on June 12, 1997, and can be >found in each package of Prozac. > Anxiety and Insomnia: In clinical trials for the depressed, held in >the U.S., 12% to 16% of those tested reported increased anxiety, >nervousness, or insomnia. In similar trials for those diagnosed with >obsessive-compulsive disorders insomnia was reported in 28% of the >patients, and anxiety was reported in 14%. > Altered Appetite and Weight: In controlled U.S. clinics 11% of >patients treated with Prozac reported an anorexic appetite. However, only >rarely have patients discontinued treatment with Prozac because of this >symptom. Those diagnosed with OCD, again, came in at a higher rate of 17%. > Other symptoms: (considered to be frequent by Dista) chills, >hemorrhage and hypertension of the cardiovascular system, nausea and >vomiting, agitation, amnesia, confusion, emotional liability, sleep >disorder, ear pain, taste perversion, and tininitus. > The outcome classification (%) on the Clinical Global Impression >improvement scale based on two studies showed that of those who took 40mg >of Prozac 0% were reported to be no worse, 33% showed no change, 28% were >minimally improved, 27% much improved, and 12% very much improved. Meaning >that of those tested only 39% showed any reasonable improvement from taking >this drug. > Though many are demanding stricter gun control laws as a solution to >this sudden increase in homicidal shootings, these events do not appear to >correlate to a sudden increase in firearm ownership. But when the >percentage of these killers that are on Prozac is compared to the >percentage of the general public on Prozac, a very disturbing pattern >emerges. Though Prozac does indeed help many people suffering from >depression, it appears that it does indeed also drive many into homicidal >rages. > When Kip Kinkel's home was investigated several bombs that he had >constructed were discovered. With a ban on bombs already in place, he >nevertheless managed to have several in his possession that he might well >have taken to school instead of guns. So the question arises, if guns had >been banned like bombs, would the danger have been averted? The >unmistakable answer is that it would not. And with the shootings >correlating far more closely with the psychiatric drug Prozac, why is the >public put in such great danger by its widespread use, while efforts are >directed instead toward something that shows no correlation? > On Tuesday, May 19th, Kip Kinkel's father took away his rifle, after >finding that Kip was taking the gun out of the house on unsupervised >ventures into the woods. The next day, Wednesday, May 20th, 15 year old Kip >Kinkel showed up at Thurston High School with a dangerous attitude and a >newly purchased stolen gun that he had gotten from another student. A >security guard caught wind of the arrangement and the two boys were >arrested, booked, and then released to their parents. > On Thursday, May 21st, Kip Kinkel walked out of his home after >shooting his parents with the rifle his dad had taken away from him and >proceeded to the high school. He walked into the cafeteria and fired off 51 >rounds of ammunition which resulted in the deaths of two of the students >and injuries of various degrees to 22 other students ages 14 through 18. >The onslaught ended when one of the wounded students, a 17 year old >wrestler, tackled Kip, and other students piled on top of Kip to help >restrain him. > Those who have known Kip Kinkel present very differing portrayals of >his life and his demeanor on an everyday basis. Gun control advocates are >outraged that "a gun" has again taken the lives of innocent citizens. >Others are saying that Kip Kinkel is just an average kid who went about on >a daily basis doing stunts that average kids do. Still other's paint a >depressing picture of a child and a family in crisis and at the end of >their ropes, and of a young boy who for years had displayed his >unhappiness, albeit apparently reasonless, by doing acts which should have >been considered highly questionable and certainly not normal. > A close family friend told reporters that Bill Kinkel had begun >confiding in him about four years ago about severe behavioral problems with >his son. The friend stated that the boy's parent sought counseling and >attempted to maintain a very structured home life. "As parents, they just >kept trying." > The day before the shooting spree Mr. Kinkel contacted the Oregon >National Guard to inquire about having his son enrolled in the Guard's >Youth Challenge Program. An official with the Guard stated that Mr. Kinkel >seemed at the end of his rope, and that he wanted to get his son >"mainstreamed back into school." The Guard YCP takes in children who "are >on the razor's edge, ready to fall on the dark side." Obviously Kip Kinkel >was already over the edge. > His attitude regarding life and his subsequent behavior was >irrationally ignored by not only his closest friends but also the teachers, >the school nurse, school management, and police officials. Most had the >attitude that he was just a kid, that no one needed to be concerned. But >how could this be? > All were well aware of the boys bizarre behavioral patterns. Although >they might say what a nice kid they thought he was, most can follow up with >one story or another of comments and actions that definitely describe a boy >that is anything but "average". > Apparently it is easier to drug our youth, to fill their bodies with >drugs that many times have worse side effects on their minds and spirits >than the problems they have. You name the attitude and there is a drug to >supposedly help or cure it. > It may be time to take the War On Drugs to where it can really be >effective; getting these society cop-out drugs out of our children's lives. >It may be time we rise and help our children through productive activities >and quit drugging them senseless. >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >http://www.Vigo-Examiner.com >Enjoy a free 90 day trial subscription to The Vigo Examiner. >You will recieve one to three of our top stories or editorials >each day. Send your subscription request, and all other >communication to Editor@Vigo-Examiner.com. > >[------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] > >-- >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** >----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- >An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no >weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his >hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a >on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ >----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- > >- > > S. "Getting the facts right is a fundamental requirement of morality." - -- Peter W. Huber - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 01:01:38 -0700 From: Kenneth Mitchell Subject: Re: Fratrum: [Fwd: Prozac Implicated in Oregon School Shooting] (fwd) At 03:06 PM 5/25/98 -0700, Boyd Kneeland wrote: >Of course, one other thing all Prozac users have in common is cyclical >depression. While I'm not going to leap into the Prozac argument on the >side opposite the Scientologists, I am willing to state that it appears >logical to me that as a generalization, clinically depressed people might >on the whole have some slightly greater tendency to extreme expressions of >frustration then the population as a whole. That or it's the freemasons ; ) > Whatever. B I went through a bout of mild depression some years back, and spent a few months on each of the anti-depressant drugs such as Prozac and Elevil. None worked worth a damn for me, and I eventually "bounced back" without chemical help. But I did spend quite a bit of time studying the "disease", and one thing that I found is this: People in severe depression feel helpless. They are incapable of action, rational or otherwise. Depressed people don't even have the energy to commit suicide. Frankly, it isn't until they're on their way back up that they have the energy to kill themselves, or to "go postal". I always figured that the homicidal rage and suicidal tendencies of Prozac patients merely meant that it was working, that the patients were on their way back up instead of bottomed out. But the beginning of recovery from depression is THE MOST DANGEROUS TIME, and I'm not sure that even the shrinks properly understand this. Which isn't to say that Prozac didn't play a role in this or other shootings. But maybe the message is that when kids are on Prozac or other antidepressants, that we parents/teachers/friends need to watch them like hawks for the warning signs. - ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken Mitchell Citrus Heights, CA kmitchel@gvn.net 916-955-9152 (vm) 916-729-0966 (fax) Registered Libertarian - --------------http://www.gvn.net/~creative/------------------------ Bureau of Justice statistics report that every day, 14 people will be murdered, 48 women raped, and 570 people robbed by criminals free on parole and probation. Keeping criminals in jail DOES reduce crime! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- Proud Member of the "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy" since 1992! - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #138 *************************