From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #195 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Tuesday, November 3 1998 Volume 02 : Number 195 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 18:54:17 -0800 From: Steve Silver Subject: GunTruths 2nd Amendment Events Page Please e-mail me re: any upcoming Second Amendment related activities you are aware of. We are developing the "Muster Call" page on GunTruths.Com. We are interested in including everything from rallies, to shooting events, to gun shows, meetings, etc. Please also check out GunTruths if you haven't done so lately. The URL is: http://www.guntruths.com/ When you get to the first page, push the "I Believe in Self-Defense" button to get to The Resource Center. You can by-pass the first page by going directly to URL: http://www.guntruths.com/GunTruths/guntruthscom_home_page.htm Thank you, Steve Silver Vice President, The Lawyer's Second Amendment Society, Inc. 18034 Ventura Blvd., No. 329, Encino, CA 91316 * (818) 734-3066 For a complimentary copy of the LSAS's newsletter, "The Liberty Pole," e-mail your snail-mail address to: LSAS3@aol.com. The LSAS is a 501(c)(4) California non-profit corporation * * * GET THE TRUTH ABOUT GUNS. VISIT: www.guntruths.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 00:20:35 -0700 From: sabutigo@teleport.com Subject: Re: GunTruths 2nd Amendment Events Page Gun Control: The idea that Black people will be safer when only Mark Fuhrman has a gun. At 06:54 PM 10/29/98 -0800, you wrote: >Please e-mail me re: any upcoming Second Amendment related activities >you are aware of. We are developing the "Muster Call" page on >GunTruths.Com. We are interested in including everything from rallies, >to shooting events, to gun shows, meetings, etc. > >Please also check out GunTruths if you haven't done so lately. The URL >is: >http://www.guntruths.com/ > >When you get to the first page, push the "I Believe in Self-Defense" >button to get to The Resource Center. You can by-pass the first page by >going directly to URL: >http://www.guntruths.com/GunTruths/guntruthscom_home_page.htm > >Thank you, >Steve Silver >Vice President, The Lawyer's Second Amendment Society, Inc. >18034 Ventura Blvd., No. 329, Encino, CA 91316 * (818) 734-3066 >For a complimentary copy of the LSAS's newsletter, "The Liberty >Pole," e-mail your snail-mail address to: LSAS3@aol.com. >The LSAS is a 501(c)(4) California non-profit corporation >* * * >GET THE TRUTH ABOUT GUNS. VISIT: www.guntruths.com > > > >- > > S. Just because I have a short attention span doesn't mean - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 98 11:20:16 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Fratrum: Packing A Gun (fwd) On Oct 29, Y2J wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Published in The Orlando Sentinel, Oct 29 1998 A new book out should dispel any doubts about using firearms for self-defense. It's The Best Defense by Robert A. Waters, and it is published by Cumberland House in Nashville. Waters, who is a former director of adult programs for an association of retarded adults and a former counselor in vocational rehabilitation, interviewed extensively people who were forced to defend their lives with a firearm. The 14 stories are well-told. Some read like a suspense story, and they put the reader into the shoes of people whose normal, peaceful lives suffered the sudden, horrifying shock of a criminal attack. You also will see clearly that neither police nor the courts offer much protection. One story is about the Stanton family in Ohio. A man with a grudge against the world set out on a killing spree. His first three victims included a small child. Then he tried to kill a former supervisor, but the supervisor, though wounded, managed to retrieve a rifle from under his bed, and the killer fled. Doug Stanton's family got a call, informing them that the man, who once, long ago, had stalked Mrs. Stanton, could be on the way. Stanton immediately gathered his four children and wife to flee. He kept them in the kitchen and went outside to make sure it was safe. There was the killer in the driveway, holding a pistol and wearing a bullet-proof vest. Stanton hustled his family back into the kitchen, instructing the children to lie flat. The killer came to back door, fired through it and then kicked it open, spraying bullets into the kitchen. Stanton took careful aim with his .45 automatic and fired. The first shot missed, but the second one struck the killer, and, despite his vest, he staggered backward, fell off the porch and fled. Later, bruised and bleeding beneath the vest, he was arrested by the police. Convicted of four murders, he was sentenced to death. Doug Stanton said it best in an interview after the incident: "People are quick to espouse the virtues of gun restrictions. They say if it saves one life, it will be worth it. Because the Stanton family had a gun, six lives were saved. Had there been restrictions on gun ownership, the Stantons would be dead. This is a fact, not a hypothetical situation." The story of a 100-pound divorcee who had to fight for her life against a 200-pound home invader in broad daylight inside her own home in an upper-middle-income neighborhood will raise the hairs on your neck. He slashed her face with a box cutter, knocked out four teeth and shattered her face so that one eye was knocked out of its socket. The only thing that saved her was a .25-caliber pistol. She managed to pump four bullets into the guy, and he finally bled to death before he could kill her. Her assailant had been arrested 30 times, sent to prison and released three times. So much for the protection of the law. Perhaps the scariest of the stories is that of a family whose members found themselves at the mercy of a serial killer who tied up the husband in the garage and bound the wife to a bed. He alternated between the two, torturing them with a knife. He had bashed the husband in the head and stabbed him in the chest. The assailant -- who, the family would later learn, had already killed 10 people -- worked in the same store that the wife did. The husband, though severely wounded, managed to free himself and shoot the guy with one bullet from an antique rifle. Then he beat the guy with the barrel and the stock, finally killing him. Trust me: This book is an exciting read, and the 14 stories are true. It'll make a believer in the Second Amendment out of any sensible person. - - Sent to you by: JVS a/k/a Y2J's Prepardeness & Supply "It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark." "Most people, sometime in their lives, stumble across truth. Most jump up, brush themselves off, and hurry on about their business as if nothing had happened." - Sir Winston Churchill "It is our duty still to endeavor to avoid war; but if it shall actually take place, no matter by whom brought on, we must defend ourselves. If our house be on fire, without inquiring whether it was fired from within or without, we must try to extinguish it." - --Thomas Jefferson to James Lewis, Jr., 1798. "During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." --George Orwell [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Oct 98 19:37:01 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: FW: [FP] FW: 18-year-old wins right to vote w/o SocSec registration (fwd) Three Cheers! Another Suis Juris Sovereign Citizen is born..... On Oct 31, Grubb, Ken wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] forwarded from GSL Perhaps hope remains. Ken Grubb Miami, FL ******************************************************* > SCAN THIS NEWS > 10/30/98 > > Source: WorldNetDaily > http://www.WorldNetDaily.com/exclusiv/981030_18-year-old_rebels.shtml > > 18-year-old rebels against being numbered > Wins right to vote without Social Security registration > > By David M. Bresnahan > Copyright 1998, WorldNetDaily.com > > LAS VEGAS, NV -- Even though government > agencies tried their best to stop him, an 18-year-old > will vote for the first time in the Nov. 3 election. > > Last July, Joshua Hansen, 18, went to register to vote. > A few days later he received a letter in the mail from > Kathryn Ferguson, registrar of voters of Clark County, > Nevada, rejecting his application. > > Hansen had refused to supply a Social Security > number on his application and Ferguson rejected him > as a voter. > > Hansen says he does not have a Social Security > number, driver's license, or government issued ID > card. He says that he never will. He also refuses to pay > income tax. > > He defends his stands on these issues based on his > study of the U.S. Constitution and his religious beliefs. > He says he is willing to pay any price and will not give > in to government pressure. > > Hansen takes his right to vote seriously. So seriously > that he took Ferguson to court to prove his point. With > the help of his uncle, attorney Joel F. Hansen, he got > the court to order Ferguson to permit him to vote. > > He belongs to the First Christian Fellowship of Eternal > Sovereignty, which he says is a political religion based > on Christianity and the Constitution which people of all > denominations may join. > > "It's a fellowship of anybody who's Christian who > really exercises their Christian beliefs within politics," > explained Hansen in a phone interview with > WorldNetDaily. > > "The Social Security number was much like the mark > of the beast talked about in the "Book of Revelations." > One of the main reasons is that it, I mean you can't buy > or sell without it, it's hard to do a lot of business > without it. Have you ever tried to get a job without > one, or voting or anything? A lot of the stuff talked > about in the prophecy had come to life and I said, 'I > don't want one of those.' > > "Everything around Social Security is a lie. I don't want > any of the benefits from it and I don't want to pay for > it. The system's going bankrupt. Anything I pay for I'll > never see anyway. It's blatantly unlawful and > unconstitutional," explained Hansen. > > Living without a Social Security number is a challenge, > but not a major problem for Hansen. He has no bank > account, works only for family members who will pay > him "under the table," refuses to get a driver's license, > and won't pay taxes. Recently he started his own > Internet consulting business. > > He just finished high school this year and says he has > very few friends who believe as he does. He belongs > to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. > > "Because of my political beliefs," says Hansen, "I have > a lot of trouble getting along at church with a lot of my > fellow members." The members of his church believe in > "The Articles of Faith," a portion of it reads "We > believe in . . . obeying, honoring, and sustaining the > law." > > "They told me that the law said I had to have a > number," explains Hansen. "I said, 'This is kind of > stupid because all these numbers are obtained through > the identification I already have.' When you get a > driver's license or an ID card here, basically you show > them your birth certificate, and to prove residency you > write down on a little paper what your address is and > sign something that says you're not lying, which is all > you do on a voter registration thing." > > Ferguson didn't like Hansen's logic. She rejected his > application to vote. Hansen contacted many elected > officials for help. Some responded and some didn't, > but none were of much help so he decided to take it to > court. > > "The Constitution of Nevada establishes who can > vote," explained Hansen. "If you're an idiot, you're > insane, and if you don't have residency you can't vote. > That's it." > > Hansen filed a Writ of Mandamus in the Clark County > District Court. The purpose was to have the court > order Ferguson to register Hansen so he can vote. > > Nevada law states that the "County Clerk shall require > a person to submit official identification as proof of > residence and identity, such as a driver's license or > other official document before registering him." > > Hansen presented a diploma from high school and a > birth certificate, but Ferguson demanded a Social > Security card, driver's license, or a state ID card. > > Hansen does not have those items and in his petition to > the court his attorney stated, "therefore, he presented > alternative identification to the Registrar of Voters, but > his right to register to vote was refused and denied by > the county registrar of voters." > > Hansen was more surprised than anyone when his > petition was granted by the court. "I didn't think I'd > win," he said. On Oct. 19, the court ordered Ferguson > to register Hansen to vote, and he now plans to cast > his first ballot on Nov. 3. > > This may be just the first of many battles ahead for > Hansen. He does drive a car, and does not plan to get > a license. > > "The government has no right to regulate who can and > cannot drive unless they have proven themselves to be > a danger to the community and have been convicted > by 12 informed jurors," wrote Hansen in an e-mail > message to WorldNetDaily. > > "Assuming that everyone is already a danger and by > telling us we must have a license to drive is known > better as 'prior restraint' and according to the U.S. > Supreme Court is unconstitutional." > > Hansen also objects to the current law which will > implement a national ID card on Oct. 1, 2000. He > says that Congress passed the law using illegal > immigration control as the excuse. > > "The even more ironic twist is that most of the illegal > immigrants coming here are filtering from Mexico trying > to reap the socialist benefits offered by the federal > government. Welfare, government schools, health care, > social security, etc. If you want to stop illegal > immigration bring back the American way of work > hard and succeed as opposed to show up and leech > off the tax payers," wrote Hansen. > > He concluded his e-mail by saying, "There is nothing > they can ever do to make me surrender my personal > freedom, nothing. I don't know a lot of people who > exercise freedom to the point of fanaticism I do. I will > not pay federal income tax, I will not be marked my > their unconstitutional anti-Christ numbers. I will not > take any of their socialist benefits. I will not bow > before any bureaucracy. I will not surrender my > God-given freedom to those bastards for any reason." > > David Bresnahan is a contributing editor of > WorldNetDaily.com, and is the author of "Cover > Up: The Art and Science of Political Deception." > You may e-mail him at David@talkusa.com > > © 1998 Western Journalism Center > ----------------------- > David M. Bresnahan - Investigative Journalist > P.O. Box 1168, West Jordan, UT 84084-7168 > off: (801) 562-5362 > fax: (801) 562-1341 > book orders: 800-338-8824 > website: http://talkusa.com > e-mail: david@talkusa.com > ----------------------- > ======================================================================= > Don't believe anything you read on the Net unless: > 1) you can confirm it with another source, and/or > 2) it is consistent with what you already know to be true. > ======================================================================= > Reply to: > ======================================================================= > To subscribe to the free Scan This News newsletter, send a message to > and type "subscribe scan" in the BODY. > Or, to be removed type "unsubscribe scan" in the message BODY. > For additional instructions see www.efga.org/about/maillist.html > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > "Scan This News" is Sponsored by S.C.A.N. > Host of the "FIGHT THE FINGERPRINT!" web page: > www.networkusa.org/fingerprint.shtml > ======================================================================= [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Nov 98 07:58:50 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: FCC Public File Auto-FAQ This "FAQ" is auto-posted once a month via cron triggered script, and may be triggered off by hand from time to time in between if the info is requested by someone, such as when the House recently voted down the AW Ban and the Media threw a hissy fit. The purpose of this FAQ is to inform people what they can do about Media generated lies and misinformation. While the FCC only handles Broadcast Media, (TV and Radio), some of these techniques will work for magazines and newspapers too. If I've missed something, or you find errors, let me know and I'll add/fix it. 1.a. Send letters of complaint to the Station Manager every time it happens with all the time, details, other info, and your complaint(s). 1.b. Send an additional copy for their FCC (Federal Communications Commission) Public file. 1.c. Send an additional copy to the FCC itself, in case they don't put it in their Public file. 2.a. Send a letter of complaint to their Station Owner as per above, with copies as per above (1.b and 1.c). 3. Send copies of their replies to you along with yours to them to their FCC Public file, so that it gets nice and fat, again, with copies to the FCC itself. 4. If you can afford it, send all corespondence by Certified Mail with Return Receipt Requested. Send a copy of the Return Receipt with everything that goes to the FCC itself, so that they will have additional evidence if the Station is cheating on their Public File. 5.a. Go to the Public Library and look up "Standard Rate and Data Services" (SRDS) "Directory of National Advertisers." It is found in many major Libraries (in the business/reference stacks), and lists EVERY current advertiser, who the players are at both the company and advertising agency(s), and the appropriate telephone and fax (and probably E-Mail by now) addresses. If your Library doesn't have it, it can be requested. Otherwise you can watch their commercials for a few days to a week, listing all their advertisers. There are other references that have the addresses for the nation's business headquarters too. look them all up and pass the addresses and phone/FAX numbers etc., around so that everyone can bitch to the sponsors. IF enough people do that, it'll get back to the Station. Tell them if the Station continues their nastiness you'll _consider_ changing to brand(X), (otherwise they'll just write you off as a loss). 5.b. The above, (5.a.), can be a lot easier and less time consuming if you're dealing with a newspaper's or a magazine's ads, as they are right in front of you for the listing. 6. If they put on something good or even just more reasonable, call and compliment them on it, but do _not_ send any kudos to their FCC file, or write to them about it. That way they have to keep it up and hope, as there is nothing good in the file or in writing that they can show the FCC to justify their Station's License. 7. Federal Communications Commission, Complaints and Compliance Division Room 6218, 2025 M Street NW Washington, D.C. 20554 FAX: 202-653-9659 FCC Attn: Edythe Wise - -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | The _only_important_difference_ between Nazi-ism, Fascism, weapon in every | Communism, Communitarianism, Socialism and (Neo-)Liberalism hand = Freedom | is the _spelling_, and that the last group hasn't got the on every side! | Collective brains to figure it out. -- Bill Vance - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Nov 98 00:57:03 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Fwd: Bill Clinton reminder (fwd) Most of us probably don't need this reminder, but go ahead and pass it along to those who might..... On Nov 2, RichSlick@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Return-path: To: Judiciary@mail.house.gov Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 14:23:46 EST Let me share some thoughts with you about the next Tuesday's election. So much what we have heard and read about this election was designed to appeal how you feel rather than what you think. It's been distorted information at best, and often totally false. I'm not going to do that. I want to point out some facts and share some thoughts. I promise to call facts, only what are well documented as true, and to label my opinions as opinions or thoughts. I think the most important issue in this election is not any particular candidate. It's the behavior of the Clinton White House. I urge you to give lots of thought to whether or not you want this administration's behavior to become a precedent for future administrations. Bill Clinton will be impeached. If he survives, then he will set the standard for future presidencies. We have it in our power at this time to prevent that. We can elect senators and representatives who will vote according to the evidence, or we can elect those who will vote according to party lines. I think Bill Clinton has given this country the most dishonest, corrupt administration in history. He has totally corrupted the Democratic Party. I formed this opinion because of the following facts: In 1992 Clinton campaigned on a middle class tax cut. He expressed outrage over Bush giving in to congressional pressure for a tax increase because he said "Read my lips: no new taxes" during the 1988 campaign. As soon as Clinton took office, he gave us an even bigger tax increase. He promised us the most ethical administration in history. Over the past six years, a record number of Clinton cabinet and White House staff members have been convicted, indicted, or resigned after being exposed for criminal and unethical behavior. Upon assuming office, Clinton fired all U. S. attorneys who were not his political allies. This enabled him to suppress prosecutions of people like Craig Livingstone and Ira Magaziner. Livingstone is explained below. Magaziner escaped prosecution for perjury after he lied to Congress about the makeup of illegally secret meetings for Clinton's health care reform package, the proposed government takeover of health care. During the 1996 campaign, Bill Clinton's "director of White House security", Craig Livingstone was caught with a collection of over 900 secret FBI background investigation files about political opponents. Every excuse for this incident turned out to be false. Clinton claimed that it was just a bureaucratic SNAFU and he didn't know who hired Craig Livingstone. Craig Livingstone resigned and was never prosecuted. In my opinion, Livingstone was doing exactly what he was hired to do, Clinton himself hired him, and this incident alone, was sufficient to impeach Bill Clinton. The only reason that Livingstone was never prosecuted is because Clinton prevented it. In fact, during the Nixon administration, Charles Collsen went to jail for possession of just one FBI file (his own). In spite of administration publicity to characterize it a "just a few phone calls", there was massive illegal campaign finance work done at the White House. There is proof in Clinton's own handwriting that he directed the Lincoln Bedroom visits and the White House coffees, both of which are examples of illegal (because they're on government property) fund raising operations. There is substantial evidence that government policy was changed for cash payments. John Haung, a known agent of the People's Republic of China, was granted a top secret security clearance by short-circuiting the FBI background check process. Bill Clinton's reply to this: "I don't believe you can find any evidence of the fact that I changed government policy solely because of a contribution." According to bribery statues, it is not necessary for the policy change to have been solely because of the contribution. It is sufficient to have been partially influenced by the contribution. This is in itself, an impeachable offense. Loral Corporation CEO Bernard Schwartz was under investigation illegal transfer of secret military missile guidance technology to China. After donating over $1,000,000 in campaign contributions, the investigation was canceled and process for approving the technology transfer was moved out of the State Department and placed in the Commerce Department. This sure looks like bribery to me, which is in itself, an impeachable offense. Clinton's defense team has told us repeatedly that sex and sex-lies do not rise to the level of an impeachable offense. I think it's clever to combine sex and sex-lies in the same sentence. But it's as truthful as saying that being drunk and driving drunk are not illegal. There are, in the U. S. A. Today, over 100 people in jail because they were convicted for perjury for lying under oath about inappropriate sex. The "sex-lies do not rise to the level of an impeachable offense" is just another Clinton Lie. The Clinton administration had dismissed abuses of power such as using the FBI and IRS for political purposes as "previous administrations did the same thing." That is another Clinton lie. Richard Nixon was impeached for ATTEMPTING to initiate political IRS audits and interfere with FBI investigations. The only one ever actually audited as a result of Nixon's attempts was Richard Nixon. Clinton has made a standard practice of getting many people and organizations audited for political purposes. This has included Billy Dale, who Clinton fired from the White House Travel office to give his job to Hillary's friends, Paula Jones for suing Bill Clinton, Patricia Mendoza for telling Bill Clinton "You Suck!" instead of shaking his hand, the National Review, The American Spectator, the Christian Coalition, the Freedom Alliance, the Heritage Foundation, the NRA, etc. These are in themselves, impeachable offenses. In my opinion, may people dismiss Clinton abuses as affecting only politicians. Private citizens are not affected. Nothing can be further from the truth. During the Clinton years, there has been a massive increase of private property confiscated by the government without any trial, even though the Constitution says: "No person shall be ... deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation." And yet, government agencies all over the country have followed administration guidelines to write rules for Non-Judicial Civil Forfeiture. This means taking your property with no trial, often without even charging you with a crime. In my opinion, this one fact presents the greatest threat to you and me. Under laws enacted during the Clinton administration, the government can confiscate your home, your vehicle, and your bank account with unproven evidence that someone (doesn't even have to be you!) sold drugs in you home, transported drugs in your car, or deposited drug profits in your bank account. This is happening all over the country at a rate of over 30,000 people per year! It's going to get worse. Jennet Reno's Department of Justice wants the power to confiscate cash from anybody carrying more then $10,000. In my opinion, Bill Clinton has lied so often about so many things that there is reason to doubt everything he says. He must be impeached and removed from office for the future of this country. Please think about this before you vote. I know many of you are Democrats. Bill Clinton has been no friend to the Democratic Party. But he has corrupted the party so badly, that no candidate supporting the Clinton lies is worthy of your vote. The reasons for removing Clinton for office have nothing to do with political ideology and everything to do with the rule of law in the United States. Go vote! And vote your conscience, not your emotions. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Nov 98 20:29:53 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Fw: US Congress members of Socialist party (fwd) On Nov 2, Kevin McGehee wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] A useful voter guide. If you live in a district represented by one of the congressional Socialists listed at the website linked below, you *really* need to get to the polls! Kevin McGehee North Pole, Alaska mcgehee@mosquitonet.com http://www.mosquitonet.com/~mcgehee/ "When you run out of things to say, it's usually wise to stop talking." - -----Original Message----- From: Stephen McGehee To: info@adjutant.com Date: Sunday, November 01, 1998 11:51 AM Subject: US Congress members of Socialist party >Check out the following web site: > >. > >This is the Democratic Socialist Alliance USA web site. This page contains >the names of current members of the US Congress who are quite proud to be >card carrying Socialists. Scary thought. > >It reminds me of the scene in the Wizard of Oz when Toto pulls back the >curtain and you hear the booming voice say "Pay no attention to that man >behind the curtain. I am Oz, the great and powerful wizard." > >Take a guess as to who's really pulling the levers behind the curtain! > >Stephen McGehee [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 09:24:23 -0800 (PST) From: wbg Subject: Re: Fw: US Congress members of Socialist party (fwd) Bill Vance forwarded to us: - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Nov 2, Kevin McGehee wrote: > A useful voter guide. If you live in a district represented by one of the > congressional Socialists listed at the website linked below, you *really* > need to get to the polls! > > Kevin McGehee > > >Check out the following web site: > > > >. > > > >This is the Democratic Socialist Alliance USA web site. This page contains > >the names of current members of the US Congress who are quite proud to be > >card carrying Socialists. Scary thought. I think both you and Kevin need to be much, much more careful about how you characterize information. I am as opposed as either of you are to every single one of the disgusting leftist congresscritters on this list, but if you go to the site and look carefully, you will learn that if we characterize these people as card-carrying Socialists, or even as members of the DSA, we are essentially casting ourselves as as big a pack of liars as we already know they are. This sort of thing has the potential to really harm our side's credibility. What the DSA's site has done is link to something called the Progressive Caucus; an org within Congress containing most all of the most leftist members therein. It *is* accurate to characterize these tirebiters as members of the Progressive Caucus - it is *not* accurate to call them members of the DSA, or "Socialists", even though we all know that is exactly what they are. Imagine my shame when I noticed that one of my state's congressthugs, one Peter DeFazio, is on the Exec.Board of the Progressive Caucus. Retch! Please be careful how you fling words around - or we'll put ourselves in the position of being perceived as as big a gang of deceivers as they are. Brewster -- ************************************************************************* " The dirty little secret of liberal politics is that it is not about the poor or 'social justice' but is about the political careers and moral exaltation of liberals themselves. The actual consequences of liberal policies on the poor or others seldom receives anything like the amount of attention given to promoting these policies and demonizing the critics of these politics. Thomas Sowell ************************************************************************* W. Brewster Gillett wbg@hevanet.com Portland, Oregon USA *********************************************************************** - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 11:37:16 -0700 From: Skip Leuschner Subject: Re: Fw: US Congress members of Socialist party (fwd) wbg wrote: [snip, snip] > > I think both you and Kevin need to be much, much more careful about how you > characterize information. I am as opposed as either of you are to every > single one of the disgusting leftist congresscritters on this list, but > if you go to the site and look carefully, you will learn that if we > characterize these people as card-carrying Socialists, or even as members > of the DSA, we are essentially casting ourselves as as big a pack of > liars as we already know they are. This sort of thing has the potential > to really harm our side's credibility. > [snip] > > Please be careful how you fling words around - or we'll put ourselves in > the position of being perceived as as big a gang of deceivers as they are. > > Brewster > -- To add my vote to Brewster's point, I checked out the web site as recommended, and found that I'd been lied to, as Brewster points out. The effect, on me at least, was to identify the sender as a "Carville class" hothead with no credibility - one of those "delete before reading" folks. FWIW. Skip. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Nov 98 12:34:46 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: Fw: US Congress members of Socialist party (fwd) I made no characterizations whatsoever, I simply passed along the info I received. As to that though, it's the Left itself that does that with respect to the name of whatever rock they're hiding under _this_week_. The only real thing to do when you find them, is to drop the rock hard enough to squish them. On Nov 3, wbg wrote: >Bill Vance forwarded to us: >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Nov 2, Kevin McGehee wrote: >> A useful voter guide. If you live in a district represented by one of the >> congressional Socialists listed at the website linked below, you *really* >> need to get to the polls! >> >> Kevin McGehee >> >> >Check out the following web site: >> > >> >. >> > >> >This is the Democratic Socialist Alliance USA web site. This page contains >> >the names of current members of the US Congress who are quite proud to be >> >card carrying Socialists. Scary thought. > >I think both you and Kevin need to be much, much more careful about how you >characterize information. I am as opposed as either of you are to every >single one of the disgusting leftist congresscritters on this list, but >if you go to the site and look carefully, you will learn that if we >characterize these people as card-carrying Socialists, or even as members >of the DSA, we are essentially casting ourselves as as big a pack of >liars as we already know they are. This sort of thing has the potential >to really harm our side's credibility. > >What the DSA's site has done is link to something called the Progressive >Caucus; an org within Congress containing most all of the most leftist >members therein. It *is* accurate to characterize these tirebiters >as members of the Progressive Caucus - it is *not* accurate to call them >members of the DSA, or "Socialists", even though we all know that is >exactly what they are. > >Imagine my shame when I noticed that one of my state's congressthugs, >one Peter DeFazio, is on the Exec.Board of the Progressive Caucus. Retch! > >Please be careful how you fling words around - or we'll put ourselves in >the position of being perceived as as big a gang of deceivers as they are. > >Brewster > -- >************************************************************************* > " The dirty little secret of liberal politics is that it is not about > the poor or 'social justice' but is about the political careers and > moral exaltation of liberals themselves. The actual consequences of > liberal policies on the poor or others seldom receives anything like > the amount of attention given to promoting these policies and > demonizing the critics of these politics. > > Thomas Sowell >************************************************************************* >W. Brewster Gillett wbg@hevanet.com Portland, Oregon USA >*********************************************************************** - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #195 *************************