From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #240 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Friday, May 14 1999 Volume 02 : Number 240 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 May 99 23:03:08 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: RKBA Defenders - seen through the eyes of a Leftist Politician (fwd) On May 11, jurist wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] RKBA Defenders, This was an essay by Barney Frank in the aftermath of the Capitol Hill Shootings. I sense we have a general feeling of being ineffectual to stop the Leftist antigun steamroller. There is truth to that when we vacillate, complain only to ourselves and not to our congressmen, don't write letters to the editor and fail to punish corporations who - through their actions and financial support -- attack this most fundamental right. However, it is those times when we actually make the phone calls, bring legal actions and put the pressure on Congress (as one pol was quoted as saying "... when I feel the heat, I see the light..") that, for a little while longer, our freedom is secure. If we feel weak, the Left sees us quite differently. Thought you'd enjoy this as much as I did. In Liberty, Rick V. >"...Liberals must remember, however, that the political costs of gun control are also high. There are a large number of people who care fiercely about what they believe to the their right to own guns without restrictions as long as they use them lawfully. And one of the major political problems liberals face today is a failure fully to understand what this means. These people will cast their votes primarily according to a candidate's position on gun control; they vote this way because of their commitment to the issue, not because of some clever manipulation by the National Rifle Association. >"The power of these voters is what makes even moderate gun-control measures so difficult to pass. It was resentment of Senator Kennedy's position on gun control that led large numbers of union members in Iowa and Maine to oppose him in the presidential caucuses of 1980 despite his leadership on virtually every other issue that mattered to them. The total focus on the issue of unrestricted gun ownership leads many voters to support Republicans for president despite pro-Democratic sentiments on economic and environmental issues. In many Western states, for instance, it is the strength of these voters that leads many liberal Democrats to vote against gun control, not some need for PAC money from the NRA. >"This does not mean that liberals should abandon all support for gun control. But I do believe that an insufficient appreciation of the strength of these feelings leads many on the left to put far too much emphasis on this issue. Given the regional variations on the subject, when liberals insist on using gun control as a litmus test, they punish progressives in the Mountain states without in any way advancing the cause of gun control. The choice in most western states is not between liberals who favor gun control and liberals who oppose it; it is between a liberal who opposes gun control and a conservative. >"At the presidential level the more fervently Democrats advocate gun control, the more we hurt ourselves with swing votes, especially in the western states. And by trying to make anti-gun laws serve as our example of how to be tough on crime, we end up losing ground on both issues. >From "Speaking Frankly: What's Wrong with the Democrats and How to Fix it", by Barney Frank, Random House, 1992 Reprinted with permission. - --------------------------------------- http://www.arcrafts.com/think/Essays/frank.html - ---------------------------------------------------------------- The Right to Self Defense is a Fundamental Human Right - RKBA - ---------------------------------------------------------------- [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 99 00:46:51 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Guns are porno (fwd) On May 12, RichSlick@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Subj: Re: GSL> Fw: Anti Gun Thought Police on AOL --- AOL initiates war on licensed dealers Date: 5/10/99 7:55:18 PM EST From: russ45@primenet.com (Russel long) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - - Russ Tucson, AZ russ45@primenet.com & russ357@juno.com Prevent drunk driving deaths. Register cars and license drivers. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - - On Mon, 10 May 1999, Nancy wrote: > http://resistance.to > http://thePentagon.com/FullBookJacket > http://GunsSaveLives.com > | > AOL IS anti-gun folks..... Those of you on AOL might want to find another > provider.... > If you know a pro gun person on AOL , you might want to pass this on..... > > First I get this: AOL sits down with Clinton????????? > ======== > >From today's AP wire: > > > > Clinton and first lady Hillary Rodham Clinton, along with Vice > President Al Gore and his wife, Tipper, sat down in the White > House East Room with about 60 participants ranging from > America Online' s chief executive to poet Maya Angelou. > > ============== > Then this: > When I was on Compuserve Firearms list we had several people switch from AOL > to compuserve because "compuserve was more gun friendly/progun". > nh > =============== > > -----Original Message----- > From: > Date: Monday, May 10, 1999 1:40 PM > Subject: FW: Anti Gun Thought Police on AOL --- AOL initiates war on > licensed dealers > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: BEDFORDTEC@aol.com [SMTP:BEDFORDTEC@aol.com] > >> Sent: Saturday, May 08, 1999 4:19 PM > >> Subject: Anti Gun Thought Police on AOL --- AOL initiates war on > >> licensed dealers > >> > >> Gents, > >> > >> Pass this around. My website on AOL was shut down yesterday. The site > >> was > >> in compliance with their standards until after the Colarado School > >> Shootings. > >> The following is the E-mail they sent me. It puts gun owners in the > same > >> > >> category as sex offenders. Their representative said "someone complained > >> and > >> didn't like it" > >> It seems that the Shumer/Gore muscle is being exerted on AOL. Two other > >> small businesses (both FFL holders I know) were also shut down. All of > >> us > >> were told our content was accecptable but now you can't advertise > >> firearms. > >> > >> AOL has a Community Action Team apparently to monitor sites that people > >> complain about..... people like HCI!!!!! Discussions with their > >> representatives indicate a liberal anti gun sentiment. > >> > >> Anyone know a good provider in Northern Va. > >> > >> Text of their E-mail follows: > >> > >> Jim Schindler, BEDFORDTECH > >> > >> > >> Dear Hometown Member: > >> > >> As this mail has been sent to all of your screen names, you may have > >> already > >> read it under another screen name. If so, please disregard this copy. > >> > >> We have become aware of a webpage site that is part of your account. This > >> webpage violates Hometown AOL's Community Standards, which prohibits > >> sexually > >> explicit graphics, links to other sites which Hometown deems offensive, > >> harassment, the use of vulgar or sexually oriented language, discussion > of > >> > >> illegal activities, and/or other activities that may impair the enjoyment > >> of > >> our community's members. > >> > >> We have placed a note of this incident on your account history and > >> consider > > >> this a first warning. We have removed all the file(s) from your > >> webpage/ftp > >> site. A second occurrence will result in termination of your account > with > >> no > >> chance of reactivation. > >> > >> Please refer to > >> >> > HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/flanker.adp?sessionId=903974804%2e86413&resu > >> ltOr > >> der=1&cid=10000&fType=tos&findP=1&fPage=tos2a">Hometown AOL: Know the > >> Guidelines > >> for more information on our community standards. > >> > >> This Screen Name cannot accept replies, therefore if you have any > >> questions > >> please write to screen name > >> TOSGeneral. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Shannan > >> Community Action Team > >> America Online, Inc. > > > -------------------------- > GUNSSAVELIVES(TM) IS A PRIVATE, UNMODERATED LIST GOVERNED BY AN ACCEPTABLE USE POLICY AVAILABLE FROM GSL-OWNER@LISTBOX.COM. SUBSCRIPTION CONSTITUTES CONSENT TO RECEIVE SOME EMAIL THAT IS UNSOLICITED. THE OWNER TAKES NO RESPONSIBILTY FOR CONTENT. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. > TO UNSUBSCRIBE, SEND EMAIL TO MAJORDOMO@LISTBOX.COM WITH "UNSUBSCRIBE GSL" IN THE MESSAGE. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 09:54:18 -0400 (EDT) From: John Curtis Subject: Re: Guns are porno (fwd) Re: AOL terminating web pages that are legally discussing fireearms or legally advertising firearms for sale. This smells like private Facism to me. I think that a boycott of AOL by all gun owners would be a good start (Run the boycott on an AOL page, just because it would be good publicity if they canned that page.) AOL doesn't show any sign of having a clue w.r.t. individual rights. "If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem." jcurtis - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 12:28:42 -0400 From: Tom Cloyes Subject: Re: Guns are porno (fwd) At 09:54 AM 5/12/99 -0400, you wrote: > > Re: AOL terminating web pages that are legally discussing > fireearms or legally advertising firearms for sale. > > This smells like private Facism to me. > That's the way they have been since I first signed on back in 1992. Today that has changed, I just cancelled my account with those socialists and said so when I called them. The guy acted like he didn't know a thing about the dropped web page, but he sure sounded like the typical liberal bozos running that joint. If you want to cancel, the phone number is 1-888-265-8008, gotta have an account, though. Glad to be rid of AOHell, Tom - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 99 10:33:27 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: Neal Knox Post-Columbine Alert (fwd) On May 12, J. Neil Schulman wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] This is what you need to tell your Senators and Representative about, while they're considering amending the Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Act. This is a federally-funded study which found that, "Boys who own legal firearms have much lower rates of delinquency and drug use and are even slightly less delinquent than nonowners of guns." Kids and guns? Here's what a 1995 federal study investigating juvenile crime found after looking at 20,000 randomly selected households: From http://www.tyc.state.tx.us/prevention/urbdelin.htm A Summary of "Urban Delinquency and Substance Abuse Initial Findings Research Summary" March 1994 Prepared by David Huizinga, Ph.D. Denver Youth Survey Rolf Loeber, Ph.D. Pittsburgh Youth Study Terence P. Thornberry, Ph.D. Rochester Youth Development Study This research summary is sponsored by the Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, and presents initial findings regarding urban delinquency and substance abuse. Three research teams were competitively selected to participate in this program, launched in fall 1986. To order, please call the Juvenile Justice Clearinghouse at (800) 638-8736 and request Research Summary NCJ 143454. Relationship between type of gun owned and percent committing street, drug and gun crimes. Illegal gun: Street crimes = 74% Drug use = 41% Gun crimes = 21% No gun: Street crimes = 24% Drug use = 15% Gun crimes = 1% Legal Gun: Street crimes = 14% Drug use = 13% Gun crimes = 0% "The socialization into gun ownership is also vastly different for legal and illegal gunowners. Those who own legal guns have fathers who own guns for sport and hunting. On the other hand, those who own illegal guns have friends who own illegal guns and are far more likely to be gang members. For legal gunowners, socialization appears to take place in the family; for illegal gunowners, it appears to take place 'on the street.'" "Boys who own legal firearms have much lower rates of delinquency and drug use and are even slightly less delinquent than nonowners of guns." Source: U.S. Department of Justice, National Institute of Justice, Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, NCJ-143454, "Urban Delinquency and Substance Abuse," August 1995. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 99 16:31:23 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Free Life 28 & 29 now available in html (fwd) On May 12, Dr Sean Gabb wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Free Life issues 28 and 29 are now available on my web page in html format. Issues 29 and 30 are additionally available in Acrobat 3 format. All files are available from: http://freespace.virgin.net/old.whig/fl.htm As a sample, here is an aricle from Free Life issue 28 - a review by Nigel Meek of Down to Earth II by Matt Ridley Sean Gabb Editor Free Life London 13th may 1999 >From Free Life, Issue 28, September 1998 ISSN: 0260 5112 - ------------------------------------------------------------ Down to Earth II: Combating Environmental Myths, Matt Ridley Institute of Economic Affairs, London, 1996, 102pp, £8.95 (pbk) (ISBN 0 255 36383 4) The forerunner to this excellent book, the equally good Down to Earth: A Contrarian View of Environmental Problems, was reviewed by Paul Anderton in Free Life 25. Like its predecessor, it consists of a number of Dr Ridley's articles on environmental matters that appeared in The Sunday Telegraph between 1994 and 1996. The central messages of the two books are essentially the same. First, that the defeat of ideological socialism has not inevitably meant the triumph of liberal economics, but instead those with a passion for centralised economic and social planning have slithered-off into various special interest groups. Second, that they are prepared to use what has rightly come to be known as 'junk science' to further their cause. In simple terms this means publishing 'facts & figures' which range from being speculative and/or partial to outright falsehoods. Dr Ridley has some satisfyingly nasty things to say about the so-called environmental groups themselves, particularly Greenpeace (sic). He notes that Greenpeace is not really an 'environmental' group at all, but a commercial organisation whose prime concern is simply to raise money which it spends on more stunts to obtain publicity to raise more money. Much of the sound and fury surrounding the Brent Spar, about which Greenpeace was wholly wrong, had more to do with reversing a dramatic decline in its membership from 5 million in 1990 to less than 3 million by 1995. As for the junk science ... In the case of Brent Spar Greenpeace appear to have simply made it up so I suppose that cannot really count. But what about global warming, acid rain, the greenhouse effect et al? Firstly, being hopelessly wrong is a time-honoured tradition amongst many environmental doom-sayers. Remember the 'coming ice-age' fiasco put about by a now-prominent exponent of global warming? Or the predictions of the late 1960's that millions would die in wide-spread famines in the 1980's in the USA? Or that by the 1970's the oil would have run out (proven reserves are larger than ever before)? Their more recent record is little better. Carefully controlled experiments (you know, like proper, grown-up science) in this country have clearly demonstrated that 'acid rain' never existed as such at all but was rather a result of disease and drought. Indeed, spraying compounds containing sulphur onto groups of trees improved their health! With 'global warming', satellite data, which is more reliable than that from ground stations, has detected no world-wide warming trend; carbon dioxide levels actually fell during the 1990's. Computer models here and in Germany which claimed to be able to show global warming patterns did so by being programmed in the first place on the assumption that global warming was a reality. In fact, as much as we can tell, climate change this century has been no more severe than in most other centuries. Yet scientists who dare to dispute the new Environmentalist orthodoxy are treated in a manner with which Galileo would have been very familiar. The Greens never admit that they are wrong, never apologise. The nearest they and their tame 'scientists' ever get is to 'revise' their predictions in an ever more 'conservative' direction. When discussing the melting ice caps and the resultant rise is sea-level, in 1980 it was confidently predicted that this would be all of 5 metres (16'5"). By 1989 this was down to 1 metre (1'3"), by 1990 0.65 metres (2'1"), and by 1993 0.2 metres (8"). Oh yes, and they were not too sure about this either because of other variables involved that could not fully control for. Mainstream politicians fare little better in Dr Ridley's critique. Environmentalism is now clearly the zeitgeist and politicians have played a leading part in bringing this about. To start off with, such is the regrettable level of moral prestige possessed by groups such as Greenpeace, Oxfam and Compassion in World Farming that politicians are terrified of receiving any adverse comments from them. Then they, along with the media and the Environmentalists themselves, tend to be appallingly ignorant about basic science and the proper use of statistics. The complete hash made by just about everyone of the BSE scare is a recent example. Even if BSE can cross the species barrier is can only do so with very great difficulty between two such different species as cattle and humans and the numbers affected can only ever be tiny. Besides, the panic was too late anyway since the cattle appear to have got the BSE from eating infected sheep which we have continued to munch away at all the while. Politicians are also not above misusing environmental concerns when it suits them, often for crudely nationalistic and protectionist reasons. Dr Ridley notes the sick joke of German and Dutch politicians latching on to the Brent Spar controversy when more pollutants flow out of the mouth of the Rhine every ten minutes than was ever in the Brent Spar. Dr Ridley also takes aim at the fraudulent sanctimoniousness of the Danes. They turn out to have a dreadful record due to the pollution caused by the run-off of manure into the sea which they simply do not measure in the way that Britain does and which allows them to claim, via this piece of methodological legerdemain, their place as arch-environmentalists. Another of Dr Ridley's targets is the Rousseauian fantasy of the 'myth of mystical conservation'. Proper anthropological studies have shown that the Amazon Indians, for example, practice decidedly non eco-friendly methods but simply lack the technology to do too much damage. Even so, those much-extolled natural conservationists the 'Native Americans' had nonetheless almost managed to exterminate large game from the Rockies before any Europeans got in on the act. Also, as the case of the Yanomamo indicates, these 'noble savages' are rather more of the latter than the former, often possessing shockingly violent social systems where warfare, feuds and sexual competition are endemic. Dr Ridley also spends time talking about more nuts-and-bolts issues, which are no less important for all that. The catastrophe that has been the EU's Common Agricultural and Common Fisheries Policies; the confusion between sensible and unsentimental natural conservation and bunny-hugging animal welfare; the whole issue of 'public choice' in the current bureaucratic political settlement; the nationalisation-by-stealth of land carried out under the former Conservative government; the relentless support for interventionist 'solutions' to environmental issues and the equally relentless opposition to market-led ones; and so on. The inchoate but essentially statist political creed that is Environmentalism, in contrast to a sensible concern for, and the scientific study of, mankind's impact on the environment, stands as a metaphor for modern anti-liberalism and Dr Ridley's two volumes are a majestic sword and shield against its effects. Now, if only we could give a copy of each to every school-child in this country before their 'teachers', the media et al have fully brain-washed them ... Nigel Meek - -- Dr Sean Gabb | "Over himself, over his own | E-mail: old.whig@virgin.net | body and mind, the individual| | is sovereign" | Mobile Number: 0956 472199 | J.S. Mill, On Liberty, 1859 | [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 99 13:14:55 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: McGehee's News & Comment - May 13, 1999 (fwd) On May 13, Kevin McGehee wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] McGEHEE'S NEWS & COMMENT (c) 1999 KEVIN McGEHEE North Pole, Alaska mcgehee@mosquitonet.com http://www.mosquitonet.com/~mcgehee/ Permission granted to anyone wishing to forward, redistribute, or broadcast this article WITH FULL ATTRIBUTION. ================================================================ PROPORTION Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold violated more than a dozen gun laws that were already on the books, even before they fired a single shot or set off a single explosion. There are thousands of gun laws in this nation, and enforcement of these laws has virtually ceased since Bill Clinton has become President. But it isn't just the President's misfeasance that is responsible for the lack of enforcement; many gun laws are left unenforced because they're *unenforceable.* This is the fact that is so often ignored in the hysterical aftermath of a notorious violent act by a criminal: while demagogues like the President rant and rave about the need for *more* laws, reality demonstrates that we can easily afford *fewer* laws. Reduction of the volume of laws on the books would save money by reducing the amount of time needed by lawyers, congressional aides and consultants to research the law, would simplify the jobs of police and regulators who are bound to follow the law, and would simplify the lives of ordinary citizens by making it easier to obey the law. But you'll rarely if ever hear this being argued, because the concept of proportionality has no place in post-modern politics. Even now, after the Senate has responded to the President's call for more laws by suggesting that existing laws ought to be more diligently enforced, the proportionality of those existing laws isn't in play. The presumption is that all the laws we have now are right and proper, and it's only the *new* laws Clinton wants that cross the line. Given the Senate's squishy record, and the sheer ridiculousness of where it has chosen to draw the line, I fully and reasonably expect that body to cave under aggressive pressure from the White House. The moral of the story: One unnecessary and unenforceable law justifies an infinite number of additional unnecessary and unenforceable laws. A sense of proportion would have been useful in 1968, that most hysterical of years, after the assassinations of Martin Luther King, Jr. and Robert F. Kennedy. The men who committed these acts did not represent all gun owners, and the millions of mainstream, innocent, law-abiding American gun owners should not have had to pay for the acts of Ray and Sirhan with even one shred of their constitutional and moral rights. A sense of proportion would also have been useful in the 1930s, that most hysterical of decades. America didn't need to turn its back on the constitutional limits on the size and scope of the federal government to weather the Depression. This was a nation that wrenched itself free of the world's supreme imperial power in the 1770s (over the strenuous objections of that empire, let's not forget), built itself from the ground up as a federal republic, and withstood a bloody Civil War. An economic crisis, no matter how Great or how Depressing, was no excuse for introducing panic into the legislative process. Nor was the violence associated with the recently ended experiment with alcohol prohibition any excuse for scapegoating an inanimate object. I am sick and tired of suffering for the infamous acts of others. I am sick and tired of Government By Panic Button. I have had more than my fill of watching my freedom be whittled away because of the sustained hysteria of a woman whose husband had the misfortune of being in the path of a bullet intended for Ronald Reagan -- a bullet that was fired, not by a mainstream, innocent law-abiding gun owner, but by a @#$!!-ing LUNATIC, of the same breed as Harris and Klebold. It is high time for an unmistakable message to be sent to those like Clinton who scramble to be at the front of every stampeding mob, that we will no longer sit still for these circuses. Bury their offices in protest mail. Organize *MASSIVE* counter-demonstrations wherever hysterical rent-a-mobs gather. Maybe even interfere with TV crews who try to play up the rent-a-mobs instead of reporting what's *really* happening. In other words, borrow a few hysterical tactics from Clinton's "wonder years." If proportion is no longer in vogue, perhaps what is needed is a *disproportionate* response. - -30- May 13, 1999 ================================================================ **Visit the McGEHEE'S NEWS & COMMENT archives** http://www.mosquitonet.com/~mcgehee/news&comment/ The views expressed herein are entirely those of the author(s), and do not reflect those of any person or group with whom the author(s) may be affiliated, unless explicitly labelled as doing so. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:00:23 -0400 (EDT) From: John Curtis Subject: AP story on NRA fold Looks like Senator Larry Craig, an Idaho Republican and Director of the NRA has folded to pressure to make background checks for private sales at gun shows mandatory. draw your own conclusions from this one. jcurtis AP wire story at ~4:15 - ------------------------------ WASHINGTON (AP) -- Under pressure from the White House and some wavering Republicans, Senate GOP leaders today moved to reverse an earlier vote and require background checks for all private firearm sales at gun shows. Sen. Larry Craig, the author of the original legislation that rejected mandatory checks for certain sales, told reporters today that he decided to ``correct'' that legislation after a half-dozen Republicans complained to him Wednesday night. ``I am back making those corrections now,'' said Craig, R-Idaho, a member of the National Rifle Association's board of directors. Republicans were making the change as part of a package of amendments to Judiciary Committee Chairman Orrin Hatch's juvenile violence bill in its third day of debate on the Senate floor. The new proposal ``requires 24-hour background checks for all transfers of firearms at gun shows,'' according to a summary distributed by Hatch's aides. Craig's amendment, passed on Wednesday, made background checks voluntary for private gun sales. Craig told reporters that the NRA ``grudgingly'' supported the new language. [balance of article deleted] - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 99 23:40:18 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Fw: Executive Orders (fwd) On May 13, Kevin McGehee wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] When you look at just the executive orders *Bill Clinton* has signed -- never mind any similar orders that may have been signed by previous presidents -- it's not hard to understand why so many people are scared to death of this guy. My comments are in brackets: [...] Kevin McGehee Fairbanks/North Pole, AK mcgehee@mosquitonet.com http://www.mcgeheezone.com/ *New URL!* (same old website) - ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Williams To: Amelu Sent: Thursday, May 13, 1999 9:07 PM Subject: Executive Orders >From the Augusta Chronicle Our president has drafted and signed 10 executive orders, to be activated in times of increased international tension or economic or financial crisis. ["...economic or financial crisis." I refer you to http://www.mcgeheezone.com/news&comment/990513.htm, in particular my comments on the Depression of the 1930s. No economic crisis justifies restrictions on the freedom of law-abiding Americans; in fact, that very freedom is the most potent weapon America has for dealing with such crises.] EO10995; Authorized seizure of communications and media in the U.S. [And judging from the way the "news" is reported on TV, this one has already been invoked. I wish I could be 100% kidding...] EO10997; Authorizes seizure of all electrical power, fuel, and minerals, public and private, in the U.S. [I guess declaring them national monuments is no longer an option.] EO10999; Provides for seizure of all means of transportation, including personal cars and trucks. [Especially, I'm sure, those eeeeeeeeevil SUVs.] EO11000; Provides power to assign citizens to work forces under federal supervision, and authorizes separation of family members, if deemed necessary. [Arbeit macht frei.] EO11001; Authorizes seizure of all health, education and welfare facilities, both public and private. [No more competition for those teachers' unions.] EO11002; Empowers the Postmaster General to register all residents of the nation, men, women, and children. [This is redundant. We already have Social Security numbers.] EO11003; Authorizes seizure of all airports and aircraft, both public and private. [There's that business of seizing private property again. I don't know why he bothers with these when he can eliminate the problem simply by redefining the word "private" -- again.] EO11004; Authorizes creation of Housing and Finance Authority to "establish forced relocation from designated areas to be abandoned as unsafe". [A Housing and *Finance* Authority to force relocation from unsafe areas? I guess the finance part is the campaign contributions you'll have to give to get your home and property back.] EO11005; Authorizes seizure of railroads, waterways, and storage facilities. EO11051; Authorizes creation of and designates responsibility of, Office of Emergency Planning; Establishes the authority to put all Executive Orders in effect in times of "increased international tensions, and times of economic and financial crisis. [Office of Emergency Planning -- a.k.a. "Gore 2000"] [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 99 09:54:33 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: RE: Time Magazine poll.......... (fwd) On May 14, Bob Mueller wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] It dawned on me while looking at the results that we should be answering NO to question 1 - that way they can't necessarily pass it off as "gun owners stacking the results." Not that we ever WOULD do something like that... - -----Original Message----- From: fap-approval@world.std.com [mailto:fap-approval@world.std.com]On Behalf Of RHill@MICKEY.GC.WHECN.EDU Sent: Friday, May 14, 1999 11:03 AM To: fap@world.std.com Subject: Time Magazine poll.......... Got this from another shooter...... > Time is conducting one of those net polls. Figures a not what they > wanted, so I'm told they reset the counters, and started over. While > this kind of poll is highly unscientific, the media types love to use it > as propaganda. Go screw up their day for them at > http://www.pathfinder.com/time/polls/gunpoll.html. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 99 09:55:14 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: I CAN'T BELIEVE IT!!!!!! (fwd) On May 14, Bill Utterback wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] The NRA has compromised away more of our rights as they have been doing for years. See the next to last paragraph with stars. The Republican Senators have clearly shown that they do not honor the Bill of Rights, something they have demonstrated for years also. The Second Amendment says "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." It seems to me that if a person can no longer buy arms that it makes it very difficult to either keep or to bear arms. Understand this clearly - this unconstitutional so-called "law" says that a private individual can not sell a gun to another private individual at a gun show unless they first get the approval of the federal government, approval that is supposed to be immediate but is not. From that point it is a very small step to where no private individual can sell a gun to another without federal government approval. Then it is another very small step to where nobody can sell a gun unless they are licensed by the federal government. The ATF has eliminated the majority of Federal Firearms License holders (dealers) in the past few years. Do you get the picture? Do you like where we are clearly headed? THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A BETTER REASON TO VOTE LIBERTARIAN OR TO SUPPORT GUN OWNERS OF AMERICA . Right now there is a slim chance that house Republicans can stop this. I suggest you contact your representative if you value your rights. for Liberty, Bill Utterback Senate Republicans Change Stance On Gun Shows 9.10 p.m. ET (111 GMT) May 13, 1999 WASHINGTON =97 In a remarkable day of rapid shifts that had the powerful gun lobby on the defensive, the U.S. Senate Thursday passed two new gun control measures and reversed itself on the controversial issue of requiring background checks on buyers at gun shows. Pounded by Democrats who accused them of caring more about the National Rifle Association than the public outrage over 15 deaths in a Colorado high school, Republicans closed a loophole, voted for a ban they had previously rejected, and accepted the mandatory gun show background checks that they had repudiated only one day earlier. But Democrats remained skeptical, particularly on the gun show question. They said the Republicans' revised gun show plan still contains concessions to the NRA, and that the gun lobby might have had a bad day but was by no means defeated. Administration experts who studied the new Republican plan said they had found loopholes, or at least ambiguities, that could allow some gun purchasers to evade checks. They also said the lack of record-keeping could hamper law enforcement. Under current law, people buying guns from licensed dealers must undergo background checks. No such checks are required from more informal vendors at gun shows, and the Senate rejected changing that Wednesday. "In the aftermath of their victory over common sense, Republicans are scrambling around the Senate floor trying to figure out how to explain yesterday's appeasement at the hands of the gun lobby,'' said New York Democrat Charles Schumer. "They are truly the gang that couldn't shoot straight,'' he added. The gun show controversy will not be resolved until at least Friday when the Senate resumes work on its juvenile crime bill. But the Senate did vote on gun measures that had foundered in the past. By a 96-2 vote, the Senate closed a loophole in a law that bans anyone under age 18 from buying a handgun. They extended that prohibition to youth purchases of semi-automatic assault weapons like Uzis or AK-47s. Two Republicans, Bob Smith of New Hampshire and Mike Enzi of Wyoming, voted no on the amendment by Missouri Republican John Ashcroft. They also accepted a Democratic ban on importing all high-capacity ammunition clips. Those clips, which let people fire scores of bullets without stopping to reload, cannot now be manufactured in the United States but are still imported. "The NRA said no and it passed anyway,'' said its sponsor, California Democrat Dianne Feinstein. But she noted that there are still many hurdles `and opportunities for the NRA to flex its muscles' before the measure gets enacted into law. "I've been down this road before,'' she said. "It's not over until the thin lady sings.'' Outlining the new Republican gun show proposal, Idaho Republican Larry Craig, who is an NRA board member, shunned words like reversal but said he was "making corrections.'' The Senate Wednesday narrowly rejected a measure by New Jersey Democrat Frank Lautenberg to make background checks mandatory at shows. Senators in both parties reported intense lobbying by the NRA against it although opinion polls show broad public support for it after Littleton. Later that night, the Senate went a step further, voting for a Craig amendment that called for voluntary background checks and also contained several elements that Democrats, including Attorney General Janet Reno, said undermined existing gun law and gave new breaks to gun dealers. Earlier Thursday President Clinton had urged the Senate to reconsider, "For the life of me I can't figure out how they did it, or why they passed up this chance to save lives,'' he said at the White House. "There is simply no excuse for letting criminals get arms at gun shows they can't get at gun stores.'' A few hours later, Craig was on the Senate floor arguing for a new Republican package of gun measures =97 and making the case for mandatory background checks at gun shows. Craig said his office had not received angry calls about Wednesday's vote. But he acknowledged that fellow Republicans had received calls, and that some were "not happy in totality'' with his original measure. Craig in his revised version dropped some, but not all, of the other provisions to which Democrats had objected. For instance, the FBI now keeps records of background checks for up to several months. The NRA opposes such a data base, and Craig's revised amendment still does away with any such record-keeping, which he said infringes on rights of law-abiding private gun-owning citizens. *NRA executive vice president Wayne LaPierre said in a telephone interview *that the organization has said it would accept the gun show background checks* if the FBI records, which he said were illegal, were dropped. He also repeated the NRA attack on the Clinton administration for failing to enforce current laws while drafting new ones. "It's a little bit disingenuous,'' he said, saying the government was letting criminals "walk out the door scot-free'' instead of throwing them in jail. comments@newsdigital.com 1999, News America Digital Publishing, Inc. d/b/a Fox News Online. All rights reserved. Fox News is a registered trademark of 20th Century Fox Film Corp. Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #240 *************************