From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #312 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Tuesday, January 25 2000 Volume 02 : Number 312 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 07:36:23 -0600 (CST) From: Paul M Watson Subject: [PROVE] Medical Privacy Presentation (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 20:21:14 -0600 From: Dawn Richardson To: Undisclosed.Recipients@lion.esosoft.net Subject: [PROVE] Medical Privacy Presentation Dear PROVE members, Last year I was invited to sit on a statewide HHS task force sponsored by the Texas Conservative Coalition Research Institute which is taking a year long study on the problems in our health care system that can be addressed by applying the conservative principles of limited government, individual liberty, free markets, and traditional family values. It is composed of legislators, industry representatives, health policy think tank organizations and government employees dedicated to the principles above. = I am there representing PROVE's mission and it is the first time that vaccine issues are being represented in this type of a forum in Texas and I am very excited about it. The task force is hoping to promote their findings to other states to duplicate the efforts here. Today, in an all day session, we talked about how federal issues affect the state, and I was asked to present on medical privacy because of all our work fighting immunization registries. I want to thank my husband Scott for being willing to be Mr. Mom one day every month so I can participate. Here is my presentation that I gave today. Dawn The Federal Erosion of Medical Privacy By Dawn Richardson President, PROVE LIFT Texas HHS Task Force Member Presented to: LIFT Texas Task Force: A Principled Approach to Health and Human Services January 21, 2000 The Influence of Federal Policy on Texas Health Care Hello. My name is Dawn Richardson. I feel privileged to have the opportunity today to direct your attention to the accelerated erosion of th= e privacy and confidentiality of our individual health records by federal government initiatives and programs. There is an alarming trend of federal health programs exploiting the accessibility of an individual's electronic medical record through persistent and continuous attempts to capture and store our personal intimate medical details without our consent under the pretext of regulatin= g costs and improving public health and the quality of health care. The question we must all ask ourselves as the ownership of our medical records continues to evolve away from us and towards the federal government= , is this the path that we want health care in this country to continue on? If so, we need do nothing since the momentum is in place. However, if we value choices in treatment options, a private relationship with a health care provider we choose, individual medical care decisions being made in ou= r personal best interest, innovative medical research, and health care cost containment through free markets, we need to reverse this trend and assert that medical records are our private property and access to them should be controlled by a contract between the patient and the provider and/or payer, not the federal government. IMPENDING FEDERAL THREATS TO MEDICAL PRIVACY HHS Proposed Medical Privacy Regulations The most imminent threat to medical privacy is posed by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services' (HHS) proposed medical privacy regulations governing electronic medical records published in the Federal Register on November 3, 1999.1 Applying to all individuals, whether their health care is paid for privately or by the government, the proposed rule would dangerously grant federal, state, and local government health employees broad unrestricted access and control of our identifying and private medica= l information without our consent for anything that can be linked to the HHS-defined "national priority purposes" of research, public health, government health data systems, law enforcement and oversight of the health care system.2 The section of the proposed rule posing the greatest threat to medical privacy is entitled "Uses and Disclosures Permitted Without Individual Authorization." Unconsented disclosures are rationalized for "public healt= h surveillance, investigations and interventions." Immunization and cancer registries are cited as beneficiaries of this governmental information grab= =2E HHS states in the proposed rule, "We considered requiring individual authorization for certain public health disclosures, but rejected this approach because many important public health activities would not be possible if individual authorization were required." They also state, "We also considered limiting certain public health disclosures to de-identified health information=85While de-identified information could be appropriate f= or many public health activities, there are also many public health activities that require individual identifiers=85Instead, we rely on the judgment of public health authorities as to what information would be necessary for a public health activity."3 Specific government agencies listed as being granted access to individual identifiable medical records under the pretext of "oversight" include "Stat= e insurance commissions, State health professional licensure agencies, Office= s of Inspectors General of federal agencies, the Department of Justice, State Medicaid fraud control units, Defense Criminal Investigative Services, the Pension and Welfare Benefit Administration, the HHS Office for Civil Rights= , the FDA, the Social Security Administration, the Department of Education, the Occupational Health and Safety Administration and the Environmental Protection Agency."4 HHS also proposes "to permit covered entities to disclose protected health information to a law enforcement official without individual authorization for the conduct of lawful intelligence activities"5 and "to permit covered entities to use and disclose protected health information for research without individual authorization"6 thus making all citizens nonconsenting research subjects in a wide variety of federal public health policy experiments. If you can believe it, HHS even proposes to release our private medical details without our consent to banks to process health care payments and premiums.7 According to the comments submitted in opposition to the proposed rule by the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, "=85the Secretary is asserting the authority to circumscribe individual privacy to the narrowest possible realm, which is contrary to the stated purpose of both the statute and the regulations. Neither the statute nor the U.S. Constitution gives th= e Executive Branch the authority to define national priorities that override fundamental individual rights, or to monitor all medical care."8 I would like to encourage each individual member of this task force and the task force as a body to submit comments to HHS recommending that this rule be withdrawn and rewritten entirely to conform to statutory and constitutional limitations. HHS will accept public comment on the proposed rule until February 17th. Detailed analysis of the rule congruent with the founding principles of the Texas Conservative Coalition Research Institute and directions for submitting comments can be found at the web sites for Th= e Institute for Health Freedom9 and The Association of American Physicians an= d Surgeons10. EXISTING FEDERAL EFFORTS UNDERMINING MEDICAL PRIVACY Rule Making Authority HHS has a previous history of encouraging the abuse of the rule process to circumvent legislative intent by authorizing the release of protected information on individuals without their consent for inclusion in state and federal medical databases. Even though The Privacy Act of 1974, as passed by Congress, protects a person=92s Social Security number from certain misuse, the Social Security Administration, under recommendation from HHS, used the rule making process to change the Privacy Act by posting new uses for Social Security numbers i= n the Federal Register. They enacted this rule for the benefit of states to create immunization tracking system files to be linked in a national database on all children without parental consent. The rule states "The proposed routine use would permit SSA to send the SSNs of newborns, and as a one time disclosure, the SSNs of children born since December 31, 1990, to the State BVS in which a birth is recorded without having to secure parental consent=85. Public health program uses of the SSN= s would include, but are not limited to, establishing public immunization registries=85 Using the SSN as the primary identifying record number would facilitate the process and lower the cost of creating and operating a national network of coordinated statewide immunization registries."11 The National Immunization Program of HHS's Centers for Disease Control has publicly declared federal plans for expanding these immunization registries to include adults and grow into full-scale medical databases for children centrally operated by the federal government.12 Federal Grant Requirements and Incentives Another justification by state health agencies used for collecting and maintaining personally identifiable and sometimes sensitive private health care information is to satisfy federal grant requirements or to collect available federal grant incentives. In late 1996, a survey of all Texas Department of Health (TDH) programs was conducted to identify health related databases maintained within the agency= =2E Information on more than 190 TDH databases was extracted from the survey results. Many of these databases list that there are no restrictions for access to the data. Additionally, while there is no legislative authority cited for the creation of the vast majority of these databases, a common reason cited to collect and store medical data is to satisfy federal grant requirements.13 One of the reasons given by the TDH for ignoring consent provisions in the state law and mining data for the immunization registry on children cared for by private providers in Texas14 was "Immunization grant guidelines require the department to implement an immunization registry as a condition of receiving federal immunization funds."15 Special interests tried to create a national immunization registry with The Comprehensive Childhood Immunization Act of 1993, but parents and privacy groups successfully defeated the registry portion. However, in September an= d November of 1993, the Act was quietly amended to create the registry anyway= , sidestepping public opposition, by providing the funding to individual states to create their own nationally connectable tracking systems. $417 million dollars were initially appropriated with additional incentives called the "Performance Based Grant Program" whereby individual states coul= d collect discretionary income awards as high as $100 per two year old child proven to be fully immunized according to federal immunization standards by including them in their state immunization registry.16 CONCLUSION Although cost and "burden" are the most often cited rationalizations by government health program employees for taking our medical information without our consent, we all need to seriously examine what the real costs will be in terms of health care quality and freedom if we continue to allow this to occur. Additionally, we would all be wise to heed the warnings of the experts on the threats to our civil liberties that comprehensive and centralized healt= h databases and registries pose. Agneta Breitenstein, director of the Health Law Institute in Boston, spoke in opposition to registries at the April 6, 1998 CDC Initiative on Immunization Registries meeting in New Orleans. She said, "There are three things that are always true when registries are created: "One, there will always be more information collected than is needed to complete the task; two, it will always be kept longer than we are told; and, three, it will always be used for purposes other than intended." SOURCES CITED 1 http://aspe.hhs.gov/admnsimp/ 2 http://aspe.hhs.gov/admnsimp/pvcsumm.htm 3 http://aspe.hhs.gov/admnsimp/nprm/pvc19.htm 4 http://aspe.hhs.gov/admnsimp/nprm/pvc20.htm 5 http://aspe.hhs.gov/admnsimp/nprm/pvc23.htm 6 http://aspe.hhs.gov/admnsimp/nprm/pvc27.htm 7 http://aspe.hhs.gov/admnsimp/nprm/pvc26.htm 8,10 http://www.aapsonline.org./aaps/confiden/hhsp.htm 9 http://www.forhealthfreedom.org/Publications/Privacy/NeedToKnow.html 11 The Federal Register, March 9, 1995, Volume 60 Number 46, pages 12964-12965 12 Centers for Disease Control's National Immunization Program, National Immunization Registry Clearinghouse Fact Sheet, March 3, 1998. 13 Bureau of State Health Data and Policy Analysis, The Texas Department of Health "Inventory of Health Related Data 1997", 1100 W. 49th Street, Austin= , TX 78756, July 1998, p. vii. 14 http://www.vaccineinfo.net/txregistry/outline.htm 15 Letter from Health Commissioner Dr. William R. Archer III to Senator Jerry Patterson dated April 2, 1998. 16 Comprehensive Child Immunization Act of 1993, Sec. 2. Monitoring of Childhood Immunizations, Section 2157 Performance Based Grant Program, (b) Payments to States. PROVE (Parents Requesting Open Vaccine Education) P.O. Box 1071 Cedar Park, TX 78630-1071 (512) 918-8760 prove@vaccineinfo.net (email) http://vaccineinfo.net (web site) PROVE provides information on vaccines, and immunization policies and practices that affect the children and adults of Texas. Our mission is to prevent vaccine injury and death and to promote and protect the right of every person to make informed independent vaccination decisions for themselves and their families. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 07:39:59 -0600 (CST) From: Paul M Watson Subject: Video contends Davidians were machine-gunned, crushed by tanks (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 23:28:10 -0700 From: Joe Horn To: "Undisclosed-Recipient:;"@theriver.com Subject: Video contends Davidians were machine-gunned, crushed by tanks FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATED JAN. 23, 2000 THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz Video contends Davidians were machine-gunned, crushed by tanks Is it possible David Koresh didn't lose his confrontation with the Godless state he and his followers identified as "Babylon," at all? Throughout their 51-day Texas standoff in the spring of 1993, Koresh and his followers repeatedly compared their plight to that of God's people facing the "flaming chariots" of Babylon in the biblical prophesies of Nahum and Habakkuk. A follower says Koresh believed he would be the one to "bring down Babylon" by sacrificing himself and his denomination. Will it turn out that -- like an earlier group of Texas martyrs who died buying time for Sam Houston at the Alamo -- the Branch Davidians still retain the power to reach out from the grave and smight their oppressors? After completing the documentary "Waco: The Rules of Engagement' -- nominated for an Academy Award -- researcher Mike McNulty continued to delve into the central mystery of Waco: Why would scores of perfectly sane and decent Christian Americans apparently choose to condemn themselves and their "unusually bright and well-treated" children (per Texas child welfare authorities) to death in the flames, rather than coming out and surrendering to the federal tanks and helicopters that surrounded them? Mr. McNulty appears to have found some answers -- at least to the extent anyone still can, given the determined after-the-fact efforts to bleach and bulldoze the "crime scene." Those answers are offered in the new video: "Waco: A New Revelation," directed by Jason Van Vleet. The documentary is not strident. If anything, the new evidence is piled up in such a measured and matter-of-fact way -- superposed with the sneering denials of FBI spokesmen and apologists like U.S. Rep. (now Sen.) Charles Schumer -- that its full impact may not register without a second viewing. But at that point, any thoughtful viewer of conscience must wonder how willfully the Congress and populace of this country must (start ital)want(end ital) to ignore the truth, to be able to close their eyes to facts like the following: On the evening of Feb. 28, three Branch Davidians who had not been present for the initial BATF raid and shoot-out attempted to get home to their wives and children in the Mount Carmel church. They were intercepted and fired upon by 17 agents "dressed as trees." Two were captured, but Michael Dean Schroeder -- not charged with any crime -- was shot seven times and killed. As the other two Davidians were led away -- after Schroeder was down -- they report hearing two final shots behind them, in quick succession. An autopsy showed Michael Dean Schroeder had two neat bullet holes immediately behind his right ear. His body was left lying in the ravine for five days. Far from inviting an exodus and surrender, tape recordings reveal that by late March, FBI negotiators told the Davidians: "No one is authorized to come out of there for any reason. The patience of the bosses is no longer what it was. If anyone tries to come out, they will be treated in such a way that they'll be forced to retreat." Former FBI Director William Sessions wanted to fly to Waco to negotiate with David Koresh face-to-face, but the Justice Department refused to let him board his plane. Sessions' wife, Alice Sessions, explains: "The FBI did not want it negotiated. They wanted to show they could win with military type tactics; it was a paramilitary organization." When the final government attack with toxic and disabling CS gas finally began early on the morning of April 19, the buried school bus was gassed first, forcing the women and children to retreat to the reinforced concrete records vault, which the FBI referred to as "the bunker." Gas was then pumped into the bunker, which had no ventilation, for two hours. Rep. John Mica, R-Fla., tells Congress: "At the very least that resulted in the babies and children being tortured for at least three to four hours." Manning sniper post Sierra 1 in the "undercover house," Lon Horiuchi (who eight months earlier had shot the unarmed Vicky Weaver as she stood holding a baby in her kitchen in Ruby Ridge, Idaho), "accompanied by most of the FBI team from Ruby Ridge," swore he did not fire into the church on April 19. But other FBI agents swore they heard fire from his position, and four expended .308 shell casings were later found there. At 9:02 a.m. On April 19, a Branch Davidian is spotted trying to exit the building across the roof. "Falcon 2," an FBI helicopter, is seen approaching in ground-level footage. It hovers, and muzzle flashes can be seen from its port waist gun. Dr. Edward Allard, formerly of the U.S. government's Night Vision Directorate, says his analysis shows at least three, five-shot machine gun bursts. "It's indicative of a machine gun firing 600 rounds per minute," he says. "It's impossible for these to be solar flashes." Other close-range video -- not high-altitude footage -- clearly shows full-sized machine guns in cradle mounts in the waist doors of the FBI helicopters, which the government long swore were unarmed. Branch Davidians Phillip Henry and Jimmy Riddle appear to have been shot behind the building at this time. Neither had soot in their lungs of carbon monoxide in their blood -- both died before the fire. An autopsy showed half of Riddle's body torn away, which the medical examiner said could have been consistent with "an encounter with a tank tread." However, when the family re-opened Riddle's casket for a follow-up examination of his fatal bullet wounds, the evidentiary portion of his skull was missing. The widow says the local medical examiner was instructed by Texas authorities and U.S. marshals not to release his autopsy results to the family. The film's researcher, Mike McNulty, tells me the most likely scenario is that Henry and Riddle were shot behind the building by government agents around 9 a.m. A lull followed, as the FBI pondered what to do. Them, closer to noontime, their bodies were bulldozed back into the church dining room by tanks, and the final government assault -- with machine guns and incendiary grenades -- began in earnest. Viewing the government's high-altitude infrared footage of the final battle, Dr. Edward Allard, formerly of the U.S. government's Night Vision Directorate, explains: "What we have here is a tank-infantry type of operation. As the tank advances, two men have dropped out of the escape hatch. They then roll over, and as they roll over they open up with automatic gunfire. The shots occur at one-thirtieth of a second. There is absolutely nothing in nature that can cause thermal flashes to occur in a thirtieth of a second." Dr. Allard reports he stopped counting the gunshots into the dining room - -- the last available escape route from the building after the fire broke out -- "after 62 individual shots." The filmmakers report Maurice Cox, a former analyst with the U.S. intelligence community, determined that for an aircraft circling at 9,000 feet to pick up rhythmic flashes at a rate of 600 per minute from "reflected sunlight" as the government claims, the reflective surfaces would have to be placed in a precise array, and the aircraft would have to be traveling at the absurd speed of Mach 1.8. FBI officials have refused to respond to Cox's findings, and have dragged their feet in the face of demands that they re-create the footage to see if sunlight reflections can be made to look like the flashes in the Forward-Looking Infrared (FLIR) footage. Absurdly, the FBI claims cameras like the one used in 1993 can no longer be obtained. Meantime, ground level footage -- not distant aerial shots -- clearly show men in Kevlar army helmets firing projectiles from an M-79 grenade launcher into the church's storm shelter the morning of the final assault. Seconds later, white smoke pours from the shelter. Although the government has consistently denied the Army's Combat Applications Force -- the "Delta Force" -- was present at Waco, previously classified Army documents reveal that four Delta Force "observers" were deployed to Waco on March 21. Gene Cullen, a senior case officer with the CIA's Special Forces Group, reports on camera he was "initially told they would just be observers. But at (an April 14) CIA briefing, we were told there were more than 10, and that they would be actively participating" in the April 19 attack. March Bell, who headed the staff of the last congressional investigation into Waco, tells the filmmakers: "They were in the tanks and the sniper posts. They were not giving advice back in some conference room -- they were working shoulder to shoulder with the (FBI's) Hostage Rescue Team." Rep. Stephen Buyer, R-Ind., explains that it is a federal crime -- a violation of the Posse Comitatus Act -- to use any part of the Army or Air Force "to enforce the law in this country." But CIA agent Cullen says he met Delta Force operators in Europe who "told me not only were they forward deployed at Waco, Texas, but they were actually involved in a gunfight with the Branch Davidians." Steven Barry, a retired Special Forces sergeant, concurs: "I did talk to some Combat Applications Group guys, and they did confirm that, yes, portions of B Squadron were there pulling triggers." Most chilling of all, Sgt. Barry reports: "Their operators had penetrated the building on several occasions, and on one occasion, late April 17 or early on the 18th, they saw Koresh within six feet of them. They radioed back to the Tactical Operations Center for permission to grab him, and within minutes the word came back from the Justice Department, 'No, we already have a plan in place,' that being what happened on April 19." "People ask why we didn't let the children out," sobs Davidian survivor Clive Doyle. "If they saw all that was happening, and they were there with their children, would they have sent them out to the animals outside that were shooting at them and doing all those terrible things? No. ... When there was shooting going on it's kind of tongue in cheek to then turn and say, 'Well, why didn't you come out?' " Although the government long denied its agents fired any incendiary projectiles into the church -- which was lined with hay bales against government gunfire, heated with kerosene heaters after the government shut off the electricity, and then flooded with combustible propellant for the CS gas -- photographs taken after the fire clearly show a U.S. military Mark 651 pyrotechnic CS gas projectile lying in the ashes. When researcher McNulty finally broached the evidence room with the aid of the Freedom of Information Act in 1998, the pyrotechnic devices visible in those photographs were missing from the evidence boxes. But two additional pyrotechnic 40mm devices were found. The film's investigators also found -- mislabeled as gun parts or silencers -- six spent government flash-bang grenades, which were recovered from the dining room, the chapel, and the southwest corner of the building -- "all three points of origin of the fire." Asked at a press conference whether she is embarrassed that independent filmmakers could find this evidence, when the FBI had been unable to turn it up in six years, Attorney General Janet Reno responds: "I'm not embarrassed. I'm very, very upset." At 12:10 p.m. on April 19 the overhead FLIR footage shows at least two automatic weapons being fired into the rear of the dining room, the only remaining undamaged exit from the now-burning building. According to a Justice Department report, at least 15 people were found shot to death at this location. The FBI conducted ballistic tests which the DOJ later termed "inconclusive and rudimentary at best." "I cannot remember anything more sickening" than watching that gunfire into the building's last exit, comments Dr. Allard. Asked whether the Davidian gunshot victims appeared to have committed suicide, a former FBI forensic crime scene analyst who preferred to be filmed only in silhouette responds: "The majority of people, the bodies that I saw, were clear-cut homicide victims. ...I don't know who fired the bullets into their bodies. So in fact what we have here is an open homicide." Congressional investigator March Bell says the treatment of those bodies was "very troubling. The bodies were preserved in a semi-frozen state in two trailers for the purposes of investigation. For some reason those trailers under the control of the FBI were allowed to not have any electricity running to them and the bodies deteriorated beyond the point where any sort of forensic evidence could be gathered. We were very disturbed by that." Indeed, the scene of the massacre was declared a "bio-hazard," and since the FBI had predetermined this was a mass suicide, "The FBI investigators were instructed to sift, wash, and bleach the evidence associated with the bodies, destroying much of its evidentiary value." The large hole in the roof of the concrete records vault where the women and children were sheltering -- the rebar bent downwards as though from an external blast -- has never been explained. Military explosives expert Brig. Gen. Benton Partin, USAF retired, says "What it tells me is that you had a demolition charge that went off on the roof." The FBI bulldozed the "bunker" to rubble. Six years later, in 1999, when Davidian attorneys were granted permission to recover the portion that might bear traces of the explosive used, that portion of the bunker ceiling was found to be missing. Gen. Partin concludes the rudimentary gunpowder possessed by the Branch Davidians would not have been capable of blowing that hole through six inches of reinforced concrete. Special Forces Sgt. Steven Barry reports the damage inside the records vault was "consistent with a shaped charge," as does retired USAF ordnance engineer Col. Jack Frost. "In military operations, it's standard procedure to do this," Barry explains, in order to reduce casualties among the attacking forces. The FBI's White House contact during the Waco operation was presidential aide Vince Foster, who committed suicide 90 days later. His widow told the FBI that the Waco tragedy was "very high on his list of concerns." She says he told the FBI he "believed everything was his fault," though Foster also commented: "The FBI lied to me." After his suicide, the White House kept the Department of Justice and the Parks Police from reviewing Foster's files. Witnesses saw Maggie Williams -- Hillary Clinton's chief of staff -- removing Waco files from Foster's office. The staff was told "The contents of the box needed to be reviewed by the First Lady." Sgt. Barry of the Special Forces: "If the Special Combat Applications Group were on the ground that day actually pulling triggers, the origin of that operation would have come from the White House. It would have come from the president. Because the Special Combat Applications Group is, for all intents and purposes, the president's private army." So: The ATF, the FBI, and the Army Combat Applications Group (the "Delta Force" -- which can only have been dispatched to the scene by the special authorization of William Jefferson Clinton) stand accused of murder at Waco. Why are there still no trials? Vin Suprynowicz is assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas Review-Journal. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 00 10:57:37 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Danger, Danger (fwd) On Jan 24, Joe Sylvester wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Congress is back in session tommorrow. Watch your guns..And your checkbook. The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. ---Doug McKay" Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 00 21:30:27 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Dallas News Gun Poll (fwd) On Jan 24, CJE wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] In the FWIW dept., this one asks the question "does gun control reduce crime." http://dmnweb.dallasnews.com/polls/process2.asp?HdUniqueValue=poll121200018248 As of 2050 hrs. AK, the results are: Yes 11.0% No 88.1% Not Sure 0.9% Cliff [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 07:50:47 -0700 From: "George T. Felbeck, Jr." Subject: Re: Danger, Danger (fwd) - -----Original Message----- From: Bill Vance To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com Date: Monday, January 24, 2000 12:01 PM Subject: Danger, Danger (fwd) >On Jan 24, Joe Sylvester wrote: > >[-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] > >Congress is back in session tommorrow. > >Watch your guns..And your checkbook. > > > > The Second Amendment is the RESET button > of the United States Constitution. > ---Doug McKay" > >Joe Sylvester >Don't Tread On Me ! > >[------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] > >-- >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - >RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! >----------------+----------+--------------------------+-------------------- - - >An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no >weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his >hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a >on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ >----------------+----------+--------------------------+-------------------- - - > >-Dear Mr. Vance: Our local pastor says there is no such statement in the Christian Bible such as you have quoted above as being the words of Jesus. Do you have the biblical chapter and verse where the above is stated? If so, I would be very appreciative of you sending it on to me. Many thanks for your consideration. Sincerely, George T. Felbeck, Jr. gfelbeck@wyoming.com > - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:22:26 -0500 From: "Chad Leigh, Shire.Net LLC and Pengar Enterprises, Inc." Subject: Re: Danger, Danger (fwd) - --On Tuesday, January 25, 2000 7:50 AM -0700 "George T. Felbeck, Jr." wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Vance > To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > > Date: Monday, January 24, 2000 12:01 PM > Subject: Danger, Danger (fwd) > >> An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath >> no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell >> his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and >> buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | >> sword.--Jesus > Christ >> ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------------- >> --- > - >> >>-Dear Mr. Vance: Our local pastor says there is no such statement in the > Christian Bible such as you have quoted above as being the words of Jesus. > Do you have the biblical chapter and verse where the above is stated? If > so, I would be very appreciative of you sending it on to me. Many thanks > for your consideration. > > Sincerely, > George T. Felbeck, Jr. gfelbeck@wyoming.com >> > Well, a quick look at some online search tools found Luke 22:36 Chad - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:08:03 -0800 From: boyd@seanet.com Subject: Re: Danger, Danger (fwd) "Chad Leigh, Shire.Net LLC and Pengar Enterprises, Inc." wrote: > > --On Tuesday, January 25, 2000 7:50 AM -0700 "George T. Felbeck, Jr." > wrote: > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bill Vance > > To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > > > > Date: Monday, January 24, 2000 12:01 PM > > Subject: Danger, Danger (fwd) > > > >> An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath > >> no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell > >> his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and > >> buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | > >> sword.--Jesus > > Christ > >> ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------------- > >> --- > > - > >> > >>-Dear Mr. Vance: Our local pastor says there is no such statement in the > > Christian Bible such as you have quoted above as being the words of Jesus. > > Do you have the biblical chapter and verse where the above is stated? If > > so, I would be very appreciative of you sending it on to me. Many thanks > > for your consideration. > > > > Sincerely, > > George T. Felbeck, Jr. gfelbeck@wyoming.com > >> > > > > Well, a quick look at some online search tools found Luke 22:36 > > Chad I hope everyone here will do this. If you give money to a modern christian church the likelihood that you are working against your own ethical right to self preservation is -very- -high-. Did God give you - -life-, so that you could "turn the other cheek" and be murdered by some criminal who is unhappy that you were only carrying fifty bucks? Should you -gamble- your most precious gift on the mercy of a violent (ie threatening) deviant (ie criminal)? Toss life to the wind and see if it's taken be mere whimsy of some criminals knife? Most church hierarchies believe the answer to that is yes. If you are a christian you owe it to your self, to your ethical sense, and to your church to -research- the bible. Look stuff like this up (it is -easy-, there are numerous online and CD resources available) and bear in mind most other people doing this have already adopted the fundamentally unethical mindset that you -owe- a criminal your cooperation. Read critically. Then talk to your pastor and determine wether the money that you give the church (the money that represents part of the finite time you are given, and therefore responsible for, here on earth) is being used in a manner that you believe is basically ethical. If they're part of the Greater Seattle Council of Churches then - -your- church financially supports victim disarmament. Go and -talk- to them about Luke 22:36, -ask- them if they understand that the Commandments talk about murder and not "killing", and be ready for the surprise of your life. I certainly wish I had been. Boyd Kneeland, former member Newport United Presbyterian. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:16:34 -0800 From: "Harry Barnett" Subject: Re: Danger, Danger Luke 22:34-37 22:34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me. 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. This is from the KJV. What the politically correct "New", "Revised" versions say, I don't know. Your local pastor might like to take heed of my .sig, too. Harry E. Barnett harryb@hbbse.com http://www.hbbse.com - -- It isn't what we don't know that hurts us. It's what we know that isn't o. --Will Rogers - ----- Original Message ----- From: Chad Leigh, Shire.Net LLC and Pengar Enterprises, Inc. To: ; George T. Felbeck, Jr. Cc: Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 9:22 AM Subject: Re: Danger, Danger (fwd) > > > --On Tuesday, January 25, 2000 7:50 AM -0700 "George T. Felbeck, Jr." > wrote: > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bill Vance > > To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > > > > Date: Monday, January 24, 2000 12:01 PM > > Subject: Danger, Danger (fwd) > > > >> An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath > >> no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell > >> his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and > >> buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | > >> sword.--Jesus > > Christ > >> ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------------- > >> --- > > - > >> > >>-Dear Mr. Vance: Our local pastor says there is no such statement in the > > Christian Bible such as you have quoted above as being the words of Jesus. > > Do you have the biblical chapter and verse where the above is stated? If > > so, I would be very appreciative of you sending it on to me. Many thanks > > for your consideration. > > > > Sincerely, > > George T. Felbeck, Jr. gfelbeck@wyoming.com > >> > > > > > Well, a quick look at some online search tools found Luke 22:36 > > Chad > > - > > - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #312 *************************