From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #356 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Monday, June 19 2000 Volume 02 : Number 356 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 14:33:28 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [Fratrum] Re: It's Amazing What One Has To Believe... (fwd) On Jun 16, Huck wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Think you might enjoy this. I really like the point made on the National Guard. Huck Patricia Neill wrote: > It's Amazing What One Has To Believe...To Believe In Gun Control > By Michael Z. Williamson > > That the more helpless you are, the safer you are from criminals. > > That Washington DC's low murder rate of 69 per 100,000 is due to > gun control, and Indianapolis' high murder rate of 9 per 100,000 is > attributable to the lack of gun control. > > That an intruder will be incapacitated by tear gas or oven spray, > but if shot with a .44 Magnum will get angry and kill you. > > That firearms in the hands of private citizens are the gravest > threat to world peace, and China, Pakistan and Korea can be trusted > with nuclear weapons. > > That Charlton Heston as president of the NRA is a shill who should > be ignored, but Michael Douglas as a representative of Handgun > Control, Inc. is an ambassador for peace who is entitled to an > audience at the UN arms control summit. > > That ordinary people, in the presence of guns, turn into > slaughtering butchers, and revert to normal when the weapon is > removed. > > That one should consult an automotive engineer for safer seat > belts, a civil engineer for a better bridge, a surgeon for spinal > paralysis, a computer programmer for Y2K problems, and Sarah Brady for > firearms expertise > > That the 2nd Amendment, ratified in 1787, allows the states to > have a National Guard, created by act of Congress in 1917. > > That the National Guard, paid by the federal government, occupying > property leased to the federal government, using weapons owned by > the federal government, punishing trespassers under federal law, is a > state agency. > > That it is reasonable for California to have a minimum 2 year > sentence for possessing but not using an assault rifle, and reasonable > for California to have a 6 month minimum sentence for raping a female > police officer. > > That it is reasonable to jail people for carrying but not using > guns, but outrageous to jail people for possessing marijuana. > > That minimum sentences violate civil rights, unless it's for > possessing a gun. > > That door-to-door searches for drugs are a gross violation of > civil rights and a sign of fascism, but door-to-door searches for guns > are a reasonable solution to the "gun problem." > > That the first amendment absolutely allows child pornography and > threats to kill cops, but doesn't apply to manuals on gun repair. > > That free speech entitles one to own newspapers, transmitters, > computers, and typewriters, but self defense only justifies bare > hands. > > That with the above, a 90 lb woman attacked by a 300 lb rapist and > his 300 lb buddy, has the "right" to kill them in self defense, > provided she uses her bare hands. > > That gun safety courses in school only encourage kids to commit > violence, but sex education in school doesn't encourage kids to > have sex. > > That the ready availability of guns today, with only a few > government forms, waiting periods, checks, infringements, ID, and > fingerprinting, is responsible for all the school shootings, compared > to the lack of school shootings in the 1950's and 1960's, which was caused > by the awkward availability of guns at any hardware store, gas station, and > by mail order. > > That we must get rid of guns because a deranged lunatic may go on > a shooting spree at any time, and anyone who owns a gun out of fear > of such a lunatic is paranoid. > > That there is too much explicit violence featuring guns on TV, and > that cities can sue gun manufacturers because people aren't aware of > the dangers involved with guns. > > That the crime rate in America is decreasing because of gun > control, and the increase in crime requires more gun control. > > That statistics showing high murder rates justify gun control, and > statistics that show increasing murder rates after gun control are > "just statistics." > > That we don't need guns against an oppressive government, because > the Constitution has internal safeguards, and we should ban and seize > all guns, therefore violating the 2nd, 4th, and 5th Amendments of that > Constitution, thereby becoming an oppressive government. > > That guns are an ineffective means of self defense for rational > adults, but in the hands of an ignorant criminal become a threat to > the fabric of society. > > That guns are so complex to use that special training is necessary > to use them properly, and so simple to use that they make murder > easy. > > That guns cause crime, which is why there are so many mass > slayings at gun shows. > > That guns aren't necessary to national defense, which is why the > army only has 3 million of them. > > That banning guns works, which is why New York, DC, and Chicago > cops need guns. > > That the Constitution protects us, so we don't need guns, and can > confiscate them, thereby violating the 5th amendment of that > constitution. > > That one should ignore as idiots, politicians who confuse Wicca > with Satanism and exaggerate the gay community as a threat to society, > but listen sagely to politicians who can refer to a self-loading small > arm as a "weapon of mass destruction" and an "assault weapon." > > That Massachusetts is safer with bans on guns, which is why Teddy > Kennedy has machine-gun toting guards. > > That most people can't be trusted, so we should have laws against > guns, which most people will abide by, because they can be trusted. > > That a woman raped and strangled with her panties is morally > superior to a woman with a smoking gun and a dead rapist at her feet. > > That the right of online child pornographers to exist cannot be > questioned because it is a constitutionally protected extension of > the Bill of Rights, and the claim that handguns are for self defense > is merely an excuse, and not really protected by the Bill of Rights. > > That the ACLU is good because it uncompromisingly defends certain > parts of the Constitution, and the NRA is bad, because it defends > other parts of the Constitution. > > That police operate in groups with backup, which is why they need > larger capacity magazines than civilians, who must face criminals > alone,and therefore need less ammunition. > > That we should ban "Saturday Night Specials" and other inexpensive > guns because it's not fair that poor people have access to guns too. > > That guns have no legitimate use, but alcohol does, which is why we > issue cops beer instead of guns. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 16:31:18 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: NRA-ILA FAX ALERT (fwd) [excerpt] On Jun 16, alerts@nra.org wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] NRA-ILA FAX ALERT Vol. 7, No. 24 6/16/00 SENATOR CRAIG REQUESTS ACCOUNTS OF DEFENSIVE USES OF FIREARMS U.S. Senator (and NRA Board Member) Larry Craig (R-Id.) recently gave an impassioned defense of our Right to Keep and Bear Arms, and also called on law-abiding gun owners who have used their firearms to defend themselves or their family to send him their accounts. (You will be able to find the full text of Senator Craig's speech posted on NRAILA.org, under the section called Research & Information.) Several anti-gun Senators have recently stood on the Senate floor to read the names of crime victims, implying that lives could be saved by their anti-gun, anti-personal protection agenda. Craig responded in part by speaking of the defensive uses of firearms by law-abiding citizens that take place every day in America, citing specific examples where firearms in the hands of responsible gun owners saved lives, as well as referencing the extensive research that indicates firearms are used as many as 2.5 million times every year in self-defense. Craig also addressed those who misinterpret the meaning of the Second Amendment in order to promote "gun control" and their false claim that the reference to a "well regulated Militia" merely "means that it is a right of our Government to keep and bear arms." Senator Craig was quick to point out, however, that "under this standard, the Bill of Rights would protect only the right of a government to speak, or the right of a government to criticize itself, if you were taking that same argument and (applying it to) the First Amendment. In fact, the Bill of Rights protects the rights of people from being infringed upon by Government -- not the other way around." He then went on to state that the "framers of our Constitution wrote the Second Amendment with a greater purpose. They made the Second Amendment the law of the land because it has something very particular to say about the rights of every man and every woman....That is: The first right of every human being (is) the right of self-defense....Our Founding Fathers wrote the Second Amendment to tell us that a free state cannot exist if the people are denied the right or the means to defend themselves." Craig ended his oration with a specific invitation. "I encourage all listening today, if you have heard of someone using their Second Amendment rights to prevent a crime, to save a life, to protect another life, then send us your story," he said. "Send me those stories from your local newspapers about that law-abiding citizen who used his constitutional right of self-defense. Send that story to me, Senator Larry Craig, Washington, DC, 20510, or send it to your own Senator." If you wish to take Senator Craig up on his invitation, but need to know the address of your U.S. Senators, you can call the Grassroots Division at (800) 392-8683, or use the "Write Your Reps" feature at www.NRAILA.org. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jun 00 13:46:45 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [Fratrum] [Fwd: [FPE] WDC:Global governance introduced in Congress] (fwd) We've seen these Anti-Gun/Gun Owner names before, but now it looks like they're _really_ coming out of the closet..... On Jun 18, Margi Crook wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] From: "F.M.Sielaff" Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 12:28:18 -0700 Reply-To: FPE@egroups.com Subject: [FPE] WDC:Global governance introduced in Congress Forwarded courtesy of Jackie Juntti. ====================================== Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 09:58:33 -0400 To: (Recipient list suppressed) From: CE Subject: Global governance introduced in Congress http://www.eco.freedom.org/el/20000602/tobin.shtml Sunday, June 18, 2000 Global governance introduced in Congress eco-logic report The idea of a global tax for the United Nations is seen as nothing more than "wishful thinking" by Americans who believe that Congress would never let it happen. Nor would Congress allow the U.N. to create an independent standing army, say the disbelievers. Wake up! It is Congress that can make both happen. Two Congressmen, elected by the people, have introduced a resolution calling for the Tobin Tax. This is one of the highest priority items on the agenda of the U.N. Millennium Assembly, and fully supported by the NGO Forum. Two different bills have been introduced which call for a U.N. standing army. HR 4453 , introduced by James McGovern (D-MA), John Porter (R-IL), and Connie Morella (R-MD); and H.Con.Res. 346 , introduced by Albert Wynn (D-MD). Read it for yourself. Study the proposed bills and Explore the links at the end of this Resolution and discover just how much momentum the global tax initiative has generated. Global taxation and a U.N. standing army will occur unless a new breed of representatives are sent to Washington. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- U.S. Congress Concurrent Resolution on Taxing Cross-border Currency Transactions to Deter Excessive Speculation (H.Con.Res.301) Congressman Peter DeFazio (D-OR) and Senator Paul Wellstone (D-MN) (Introduced April 11, 2000) - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- It is the sense of the Senate and the House of Reprentatives that the United States should show leadership by enacting, in concert with the international community, transaction taxes on short-term, cross-border foreign exchange transactions to deter speculation. The adoption of such Tobin-style taxes should be done in coordination with a large number of nations, in a fully transparent and accountable manner, with the revenue dedicated to urgent global needs. A. Introduction WHEREAS every day over $1.8 trillion in currency exchanges moves across national borders, a volume far greater than in the last decade; and WHEREAS such rapid movement of foreign currency has created some additional opportunities for legitimate productive investment, but also has created the potential of triggering national currency collapses and resulting financial crises; I. Currency Market's Volume and Volatility WHEREAS daily trading in currency markets increased from $0.2 trillion to over $1.8 trillion in just over a decade, from 1986 to 1998; by comparison, the trade in goods and services for all countries for an entire year is only $4.3 trillion; and, therefore, in less than a week, foreign exchange transactions exceed the entire annual volume of world trade in goods and services; WHEREAS over 85 percent of these transactions are of a purely speculative nature where investors bet on whether currency values and interest rates will move up or down, and thus bear little or no relationship to the production and trade in goods or services; WHEREAS more than 40 percent of all these transactions involve round trips of fewer than three days; and over 80 percent of global foreign exchange transactions involve round trips of less than a week; WHEREAS the vast majority of transactions take place in relatively few financial centers, particularly the United Kingdom (32 percent), the United States (18 percent), Japan (8 percent), Singapore (7 percent), Germany (5 percent), Switzerland (4 percent), Hong Kong (4 percent), and France (4 percent); WHEREAS these speculative transactions themselves often cause short-term fluctuations of exchange rates, thus provoking more speculation; II. Sovereignty and Stability of Nations Threatened WHEREAS such volume and volatility of liberalized capital flows not only threatens national currency devaluation and financial crises, but disrupts the ability of nations to establish equitable and just economic policies; to intervene to protect their own currencies; and to provide support for needed social and environmental programs; WHEREAS in the past, central bank reserves were sufficient to combat any speculation on their country's currency; now, however, financial speculators have created a daily market volume which dwarfs all of the world's central banks combined; and therefore, when a country cannot defend its currency, it effectively loses control of its monetary policy; WHEREAS such speculative pressure on a currency results in higher interest rates than is warranted by internal monetary conditions; leading to a lowering of economic growth and an increase in domestic unemployment with the related social problems; WHEREAS there is overwhelming evidence that the lack of stability helps to cause financial crises with increasing frequency (1992/93 Europe, 1994 Mexico, 1997 Southeast Asia, 1998 Russia, 1999 Brazil), even in countries where basic economic fundamentals are sound, and the market reacts irrationally to rumors ("herd behavior"), causing "speculative bubbles" to burst when speculators flee a particular currency; WHEREAS such financial crises can have enormous impact worldwide; for example, the Asian currency crisis lowered the world growth projection for 1998 by one percent and increased worldwide unemployment by 10 million; and unpredictable exchange rate fluctuations create additional uncertainties for entrepreneurs, making rational planning more difficult; WHEREAS such crises have not only economic impact, including exacerbation of global economic inequality; but also social impact including increased unemployment, price increases and disruptions, plant closures, poverty, human rights violations, diversion of resources from sustainable development, and social upheaval; which burden poor, indigenous, and middle-income populations most heavily; WHEREAS such impacts in other nations have a spillover effect in the United States and elsewhere by contributing to increased trade imbalances, dumping of low-price products on overburdened markets, and contributing to increased unemployment, volatility in agriculture markets, and stagnant or falling wages; WHEREAS de facto support by governments and international institutions of excessive financial speculation may undermine desired macroeconomic policies and contribute to moral hazard and irresponsible market behavior; III. Transaction Taxes as a Partial Solution WHEREAS excessive speculation could be curbed by a very small tax of between 0.1 percent and 0.25 percent on each cross-border currency transaction (now commonly called "Tobin-style taxes", as proposed in 1978 by Nobel prize winning economist James Tobin), or an alternate two-tiered version (proposed in 1996 by German economist and IMF consultant Paul Bernd Spahn); WHEREAS such a tax reduces incentives for short-term speculation while remaining small enough to leave longer-term investments intact; with the resulting increased stability of exchange rates serving as a stimulus for productive trade; WHEREAS the senior economist of the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco has written, "...if your goal is to limit short-term speculation, it is hard to beat the Tobin tax"; WHEREAS the revenues from such a tax, projected to be between $50 billion and $300 billion a year, would provide urgently needed resources to combat global and local crises; WHEREAS concerns voiced about tax havens and the collection and enforcement of such taxes have been researched by economists, and plans proposed to answer these concerns, such as collection at settlement sites to ensure universality and to track derivative instruments, as proposed by Schmidt; WHEREAS there is already an international movement in support of a transactions tax, including passage of a resolution in the Canadian Parliament, introduction of resolutions in the European Parliament, the French Parliament, and British House of Commons, substantive discussion of the issue in the European Parliament and the parliaments of Switzerland and Germany, plus a chapter in the current Finnish government rules; Now, therefore be it resolved by the U.S. House of Representatives, that - - (1) It is the Sense of the House that - (A) The United States should show leadership by enacting, in concert with the international community, transaction taxes on short-term, cross-border foreign exchange transactions to deter speculation. The adoption of such Tobin-style taxes should be done in coordination with a large number of nations, in a fully transparent and accountable manner, with the revenue dedicated to urgent global needs; (B) The United States should build support for and advocate this position at the World Bank and the IMF, as well as within other regional and international organizations, including the OECD, the G-8, and the newly established G-20; (C) This should not be done in isolation of other initiatives for reform of global finance. Instead, the United States should continue to explore other options together with the international community. These options include, but are not limited to: tougher transparency rules, tighter reserve requirements, creation of exchange rate "target zones", national currency controls, cash requirements for mutual funds, and stronger source-country measures such as disincentives for short-term lending. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- The office of Congressman DeFazio is located at: 2134 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington DC 20515 202.225.6416 ph 202.225.0032 fx E-mail: peter.defazio@mail.house.gov Web: www.house.gov/defazio/index.htm The office of Senator Wellstone is located at: 136 Hart Senate Office Building, Washington DC 20510 202.224.5641 ph 202.224.8438 fx E-mail: senator_wellstone@exchange.senate.gov Web: wellstone.senate.gov For further information, contact Tom Vinson tom.vinson@mail.house.gov - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Tobin Tax Initiative CEED/IIRP, PO Box 4167 Arcata, CA 95518-4167 phone: (707) 822-8347, fax: (707) 822-4457 e-mail: cecilr@humboldt1.com Home | Who Are We | What are Tobin Taxes | Tobin Tax Policy | Tobin Tax Bibliography US Campaigns | Campaigns Around the World | Contact the Initiative The Tobin Tax Initiative is a project of the Center for Environmental Economic Development. Copyright (C) 2000 Freedom.org, All rights reserved - ----------- NOT FOR PROFIT -- forwarded for educational purposes only - ----------- ~~~~!~~~!~~~!~~~~!~~~!~~~!~~~!~~~!~~~!~~~!~~~!~~~!~~~!~~~!~~~!~~! In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, any copyrighted work in this message is distributed under fair use without profit or payment for non-profit research and educational purposes only. [Ref. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml] - -. -. -. -. -. -. -. -. -. -. -. -. -. -. -. -. -. -. - -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. Washington Grassroots Email Network (WGEN) idzrus@earthlink.net (Jackie Juntti, moderator) Where the Conservative message is posted - UNEDITED http://www.insidetheweb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi/mb70701 - Politics [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 11:16:59 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: US a "Police State" (fwd) On Jun 18, ASSETNJ@AOL.COM wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Leading Democrat Decries US "Police State" Prominent Democratic congressman James A. Traficant (Ohio) says America has become a virtual police state, and he wants to create a new federal agency to investigate crimes committed by the U.S. Department of Justice. Rep. Traficant made his astonishing remarks after observing suspicious events in the current Waco investigation, culminating in the sudden death in April of Carlos Ghigliotti, a forensic expert investigating Waco deaths. Ghigliotti, 42, was hired by the House Government Reform Committee to analyze infrared film taken by the FBI during its April 1993 Waco assault. He was highly critical of FBI and Justice Department claims about Waco. His body, badly decomposed, was found in his office in late April. A local medical examiner's office declared the cause of death was a heart attack in his sleep. Traficant is skeptical. "We have developed a stone cold police state in America, believe me, from Waco, Ruby Ridge, to Miami, Florida," Traficant said. "Every American knows it, [but] no one is doing anything about it." Traficant has introduced legislation to create the Fair Justice Agency, a new federal agency that would have the power to investigate and prosecute misconduct, criminal activity, corruption or fraud by an officer or employee of the Justice Department. The head of the FJA would be appointed by the President, confirmed by the Senate, and would serve a 10-year-term -- unless, of course, murdered first. (Source: "Congressman Fears Police State, Says Waco Expert May Have Murdered" by Stephan Archer, May 30, 2000, Newsmax.com) [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 11:19:20 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Boycott of Toys R Us (fwd) On Jun 18, Swftl@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] In a message dated 06/18/2000 3:09:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, goodwid@bigfoot.com writes: << I read the attached story in the New York Post on line today at http://www.nypostonline.com/business/6190.htm . I posted the following on the Toys R Us Website, on their contact page at http://www15.toysrus.com/handler.cfm?sn=pg_help_contact_us : I am the father of a 9-year-old girl, and live within a half mile of your Toys R Us store in Culver City, California. I have spent thousands of dollars on merchandise at Toys R Us in the last 9 years, starting with infant supplies, and ranging from toys, games, athletic equipment, computer software, videos, and books. I just read in the New York Post that Toys R Us is trying to prevent the NRA from opening its theme facility in New York's Times Square, by refusing to sign a lease there if the NRA opens. As the bestselling author of two books on the self- defense issue, a writer for prime-time network TV, an award-winning novelist, a journalist published in major newspapers and national magazines, a person who has passed California's Peace Officers Standards and Training, a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm in nine states, the son of a concert violinist who saved his life five or more times because he carried a licensed, concealed firearm, and as an NRA member who wishes to pass on the right to keep and bear arms to his daughter, I will never again spend a cent in a Toys R Us store, or on the Toys R Us website. Consider yourself boycotted. This message is being passed along to everyone I know, asking them to join the boycott. J. Neil Schulman, webmaster The World Wide Web Gun Defense Clock at http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/ author, Stopping Power: Why 70 Million Americans Own Guns & Self Control Not Gun Control Personal website at http://www.pulpless.com/jneil/ - - - - -- The Libertarian Party has no power. That is its prime virtue. The Republican Party isn't the Democratic Party. That is its prime virtue. The Democratic Party is obvious in its thirst for power. That is its only virtue. J. Neil Schulman, April 23, 2000 EaZychair, Inc.: http://www.eaZychair.com Pulpless.Com Book Catalog: http://www.pulpless.com/ The World According to J. Neil Schulman: http://www.pulpless.com/jneil/ The World Wide Web Gun Defense Clock: http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/ Petition: Report the News on DGU's: http://www.i-charity.net/sw.cgi/ptn/40 [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 12:21:27 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Million Moms Changed Mind of Local Man -- Against Them] (fwd) On Jun 19, Margi Crook wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] From: HenriettaBowman@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:40:09 EDT Subject: [piml] Million Moms Changed Mind of Local Man -- Against Them Keep and Bear Arms http://www.keepandbeararms.com/newsarchives/XcNewsPlus.asp?cmd=view&articleid= 197 Million Moms Changed Mind of Local Man -- Against Them by Wolf N. Rose No one denies we need to curb violence involving misused guns, but I was still at least partially undecided about some gun-related issues until some weeks ago, on May 14th. I am writing to you in hopes of sharing my own experiences with you and your readers. I live in a semi-rural neighborhood, where police OPENLY admit to a 15 minute (or longer) response time to 911 calls. In fact, one unexpectedly forthright DC officer I spoke with said that 45 minutes is not at all uncommon in his precinct, and "We [officers] frequently [first repond and] take the first report the day after the crime if the call comes in at night [when there are apparently fewer officers on duty]." When I asked when most emergency calls actually come in, he half-smiled/half-grimaced for a moment and simply said "At night." Fearing reprimand, he asked I not give his name in any of my writings. Knowing that both MMM and Second Amendment Sisters would be present on the Mall in DC, I spoke with a few participants of both of their rallies, with the intent to educate myself before wholly passing judgment for either group. I asked both groups the same, somewhat open question : "Why are you, personally, here today?" When I spoke to one member of the Million Moms, I was told "Because I have a great Mom, and it's Mother's Day!" When more specifically asked about guns, this person said they support fewer gun laws, and own several guns -- they had no idea what Million Moms was asking for, and claimed they would be joining the SAS march after I spoke to them. One younger gentleman very tellingly simply said "I get school credit for being here today. I don't think I do if I support the SAS march." One family said they attended MMM because "The City of Richmond paid to bus my family up, and it's a nice day for a picnic." One mother was wearing a stack of photos of her children around her neck -- when I questioned her, she said three of her children were gang members, and had sadly been shot to death by Police. She said she "was [there] to ban guns because [she doesn't] know what else to do." While my heart very sincerely goes out to her for her loss of her children, I couldn't make a connection between banning civilian (non-Police) guns and the Police being forced to shoot gang members. There are just too many things wrong with that logic. Another Mom said "I don't want to own a gun because I am sometimes suicidal, and I tend to lose my temper frequently; I am afraid I might shoot my own children." I must sincerely applaud her choice for not owning a gun, and her self awareness! When questioned "Do you think all mothers have the potential to kill their children?" she greatly surprised me by saying "Of course! Don't you ever lose your temper?" I had to respectfully confess that while I HAVE been forced to defend my life several times, I have never ONCE lost my tempter enough to raise a fist, much less a gun. And to utterly lose control enough to raise a gun to an innocent child!?!? Quite honestly, anyone that would even distantly consider such a thing truly sickens me. Ultimately, the emotion I got more than anything from the MMM group was simply an unfocused fear of their fellow armed citizens, ignorance of gun-related facts, and complete confusion as to what to do about violence in general. The one mother above said it best : "I just don't know what else to do... so I'm here." When I spoke to people at the Second Amendment Sister's gathering, I heard heartbreaking stories of being raped, family members being murderred in their own houses and in restaurants, churches and schools (where current laws forbid concealed carry), and over and over the same gist was independantly restated : "If I had the gun I now carry, it would have been an easy shot to stop [that crime]." Even if I didn't already generally agree with guns, I have to admit that this smaller group, to a one, had rational and strongly moving reasons for what they supported. Not one person I spoke with in the SAS group had any confusion over what they were there for. Since I visited the SAS group second, they began their march while I was still talking to one indulgent young man. What happened next clinched my admittedly rapidly firming views : while I continued to talk to this gentleman, the opposing crowd we walked by began to throw things. At more than one intesection, we were actually spit on by the Million Mom supporters, many of whom were small children, apparently already being taught intolerance and disrespect of others. Several times, young shirtless men with red paint 'bullet wounds' shouted at us language I haven't heard from seasoned sailors. When one of these boys yelled "I don't trust you with a gun!" I have to admit agreeing with a woman next to me who answered "How can I trust YOU without one?" At the end of the SAS march, the participants chanted "Thank You, Police" to our escorts, who unquestionably stopped several of the more violent attacks from the Million Moms. As a result of the above fact finding and demonstrations, I personally believe in the right of responsible people to carry completely unrestricted; to choose how to secure their "life preservers" if they have children in their homes. I also support holding parents absolutely responsible for the actions of their children, whether those children abuse an otherwise legal firearm or abuse those who choose to legally own one. Wolf N. Rose For subscription info, go to: http://www.egroups.com/subscribe/piml [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 13:32:10 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Boycott of Toys R Us (fwd) (fwd) OOPS! Better hang fire on that boycott..... On Jun 19, Paul A. Miller wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] >I posted the following on the Toys R Us Website, on their contact page at > http://www15.toysrus.com/handler.cfm?sn=pg_help_contact_us : > I am the father of a 9-year-old girl, and live within a half mile of > your Toys R Us store in Culver City, California. I have spent thousands of > dollars on merchandise at Toys R Us in the last 9 years, starting with > infant supplies, and ranging from toys, games, athletic equipment, > computer software, videos, and books. I just read in the New York Post > that Toys R Us is trying to prevent the NRA from opening its theme > facility in New York's Times Square, by refusing to sign a lease there if > the NRA opens. >From another list... From: Philip Van Cleave To: gsl@listbox.com Subject: GSL> Toys R Us - important new info Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:21:52 -0400 I took the initiative last Friday (late) to contact ToysRUs and find out if the story about Times Square was true. This morning a Susan McLaughlin, Director of corporate communications, called me back and stated that the story is FALSE. They have no intentions of putting a store in Times Square whether or not the NRA is there. Susan further stated that they have contacted the reporter to get the story straight. She sounded very frustrated. When I asked her if they were going to put out a press release, she said that ToysRUs has a corporate policy of not publicly commenting on rumors one way or the other. I thought everybody should know so we don't boycott an innocent company. Also, please feel free to forward this message to other lists to help get the word out. Regards, Philip Van Cleave [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #356 *************************