From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #441 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Monday, May 14 2001 Volume 02 : Number 441 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 22:01:11 -0700 From: Bill Vance Subject: [ocs@xpresso.seaslug.org: Eye witness to The 18th of April, 1995 and that relationship to OKC (fwd)] - ----- Forwarded message from ocs@xpresso.seaslug.org ----- From: "Huck" Subject: Eye witness to The 18th of April, 1995 and that relationship to OKC Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 23:27:34 -0400 To whom it may concern, There may be a few very minor discrepancies between what I have written here and the affivdavit sent to Mr. Charles Key and his private investigator L.K. However I have a copy of that affidavit should any questions arise from my statements contained in this e-mail. Oh, and please forgive any spelling errors, my spell checker is on the fritz again. :) I am sure there will be no such errors in Mr Key's book! It should by now be common knowledge that I worked in a CW ( undercover ) capacity for the FBI. With that in mind the following data was given to Special Agent Fisher who worked at the San Antonio office if the FBI. He stated that this data was of NO use to the FBI since they already had those responsible for the explosion at the Murrah Building in OKC. Even though my history while working for them was proof enough for another agent that I was always truthful and accurate, this information was dismissed quickly and I was told to forget it. This and other evidence that the FBI was not always truthful in their disclosures is why I quit. The truth will most certainly set you free, but first it will make you ............ .......!!!When you can np longer trust those who took essentually the same oath we took as soldiers, then who can we trust? On April 18, 1995, I was on my way to visit a friend in MO. and I stopped twice to call home to let my wife know that I was ok. According to phone records obtained for me by an attorney friend in San Antonio, Texas, the first call was made from near Checotah, OK, at 3:35 A.M. CST. The second call was made from Wagoner, OK at 4:55 A.M. CST and lasted for 7 minutes. It was routed through Telecom, USA. Within a few minutes ( approximatly at 5:05 a.m. CST of my finishing that phone call, I entered one of those all night combination gas station, conveinence stores. At that time I witnessed several individuals who were later identified by Glen Wilburn from my complete verbal description of the people I saw. I gace Mr. Wilburn a complete discription down to hair color, eye color, height and weight of each individual.Those included Andreas Strasmeyer, Michael Brescia at that time unidentified, and unidentified third male and a female, later identified as Esther Millar. The third male was middle eastern in appearance, with dark brown or black hair, brown eyes, about my weight and height. ( roughly 5'9'' tall and 160 pounds ) I say roughly since he was wearing a light windbreaker style jacket. I had met Andy once before at a gun show in North Texas or possibly OK ( to the best of my recollection it was in Fort Worth ) since at that time I was frequenting as many shows as possible, so I have no doubts as to Andy's identity since we had a long conversation about the necessity of civilian actions needed in restructering our government. Upon exiting the establishment I also saw what I believed to be a rental truck similar to the Ryder truck that was used in OKC on the 19th. except it did not have anything written on the side of it that was visible to me. After leaving that area I proceeded north on Rt. 69 to theBig Cabin toll booth and arrived there at 06:05:45, paid my toll, ( kept the receipt ) and headed east on lane 268 to MO 44. I arrived at my destination early on the morning of the 18th and received a call from home ( in Texas ) at 9:59 A.M. CST. To be honest, when I first heard about the explosion on the 19th. and that a rental truck had been used I thought it was these individuals who had done it. I first heard about the explosion through an employee who came up to the smoking area at the lab and told several of us that she had just heard about it on the radio. This was later confirmed by news reports that I saw on relevision that evening. There is much more to this story, including conversations with Kirk Lyons whom I feel covered up the truth about his client. I find it amusing that the FBI agent I was working with at that time asked me to see if I could locate him and it turned out that Andy had already been secreted out of the U.S. through Mexico. Not to mention the fact that he admitted in a fax to Mike Vanderbough that he had used funds that were to be used to defend the Branch Davidians to get Andy out of the country. I first told this story to Mike Kemp and he allowed me to use the alias Patrick Henry to contact Lyons about his client mainly to protect my identity. Mike was very helpful although there seemed to have been several players in what I was sending to Kirk including Mike Vanderbough and Jeff Randall. BTW, for those that have condemned Jeff Randall, all I can say is from my privete conversations with certain fedgov individuals that unless the agencies were playing the old game of cat and mouse to cover their inside man he is innocent of anything oter than what a true God fearing American would have done. As for the so called VSA evidence, by a certain individual, he knew nothing until we took an evening stroll up the street from his home where Imrevealed the entire truth of what I had been doing. Including this complete story as well. We did that so in case their were bugs our conversation could be private. I hold no grudges against any of these individuals despite some accusations made by at least one of them. NOW I have an accusation of my own. Since ONLY three individuals knew of Patrick Henry, one of the three, Jeff Randall, Mike Kemp, or Mike Vanderboegh gave my identity up to Kirk Lyons. So in your parlance, who is the SNITCH??? Seems to me it's my turn to ask that seemingly popular question of paranoid patriots! Kind of like a case of the pot calling the kettle black. I'm curious if that hate monger Martin Linsdedt will be so eager to find the real snitch. I sincerely doubt it since this entire letter on my part proves on which side of the fence my loyalties belong. Seems that someone gave Kirk Lyons my real name and phone number ( that's called a snitch ) and he quickly called me about his client. His story was that Andy and Mike were fixing fence on that morning and left early because of the rain. I find that interesting since it also rained the day before. After wasting considerable energy discussing this issue with Lyons, I feel he knows his client is guilty at least within the confines of a conspiracy to blow up a federal building either in Tulsa or OKC. My photo record of Mike B. has convinced me that he was JD #2. That and his tattoos which were readily visible that morning. Feel free to send this data to anyone you like. Everything written here is substantiated by records that I have kept since I quit working with the FBI. I'm sure that those who have accused me of still being a snitch will have a field day with this, but I feel the truth needs to be told, especially since one man is going to die for the work and guilt of many. I swear that the above information is as honest and accurate as I can make it after so many years have passed, and that most of this was taken from records I have retained for my own protection. Those of you who have known me personally know that since my conversion to ChristianityI have tried to be as honest and above board as is humanly possible. Kenneth McWilliams - ----- End forwarded message ----- - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 10:50:24 -0700 From: Bill Vance Subject: Min: Emotional gunfight looms at Capitol SV. (fwd) - ----- Forwarded message from fap@xpresso.seaslug.org ----- Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 11:16:40 -0400 From: Brad3000 Subject: Min: Emotional gunfight looms at Capitol SV. FYI Emotional gunfight looms at Capitol Conrad deFiebre - Sunday, May 13, 2001 http://www.startribune.com/viewers/qview/cgi/qview.cgi?template=politics_a&slug=gun13 After one of Anna Ravenscroft's roommates was kidnapped from in front of their home and raped years ago, Ravenscroft decided she should carry a handgun for self-protection. But Minneapolis police officials decided otherwise. Her application for a permit to carry a handgun was denied on grounds that she lacked a sufficient personal safety hazard. Ravenscroft says she's law-abiding - "I've never even had a traffic ticket" -- and wants the law in Minnesota changed to allow people like her to defend themselves. "I shouldn't have to decide whether my kids and I are going to be victims or criminals because someone decided my right to self- protection is subject to their whim," she said. It's stories like Raven- scroft's - with a strong dose of pressure from the National Rifle Association and other gun groups - that are driving a long-running debate in the Minnesota Legislature to a climactic Senate vote expected this week. Observers say the outcome is too close to call. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Any other views expressed herein, are my own, not bought or sponsored in any shape or form, by or for any organization, currently existing or not. It should be noted: the URL posted is very likely to suddenly expire & if the reader wants to read the full article, they should should visit the copyright holders listed site very promptly. References & partial texts are given for EDUCATIONAL & INFORMATIONAL purposes only as per the "Fair Use" as described in Title-17, Sect 107 below. ---------------------------------------------------------------- **COPYRIGHT NOTICE** In accordance with Title 17 U. S. C. Section 107, any copyrighted work in this message is distributed under fair use without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for nonprofit research & educational purposes only. [Ref. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml] ---------------------------------------------------------------- ===================================== Axiom - There is NO Truth, only data to be manipulated. ===================================== - ----- End forwarded message ----- - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 11:56:56 -0700 From: Bill Vance Subject: F.B.I demands server logs (fwd) From: BOBWORN@aol.com Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 01:16:46 EDT Subject: F.B.I demands server logs In a message dated 5/12/01 8:25:24 PM Central Daylight Time, docucine@flash.net writes: > Source: > COUNTER INSURRECTION > http://www.counterinsurrection.com > > Turn 'em in OR ELSE. F.B.I demands server logs. > http://seattle.indymedia.org/display.php3?article_id=3D3014 > > > IN THE MATTER OF THE APPLICATION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA FOR AN ORDER AUTHORIZING THE DISCLOSURE OF RECORDS AND OTHER INFORMATION PERTAINING TO ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATION SERVICE PROVIDED BY INDYMEDIA. THIS MATTER having come before the Court pursuant to the Application of the United States of America, which Application requests that an Order be issued= : (1) directing that INDEPENDENT MEDIA, and any other provider of electronic communications service and their agents and employees, not disclose to the user of said electronic communication service, nor to any other person, the existence of this Application and Order or the existence of this investigation unless and until otherwise ordered by the Court; (2) directing INDEPENDENT MEDIA, a provider of electronic communications service, as defined by Title 18, United States Code, Section 2510(15), to examine all account records and system/accounting log files and supply the Federal Bureau of Investigation with all Information listed on Attachment A to this Order; and (3) directing that the Application and Court's Order be sealed; IT APPEARING that there is an ongoing criminal investigation into acts which= would constitute violations of Sections 322 (theft) and 430 (mischief) of th= e Criminal Code of Canada, and that one or more of the subjects of said investigation are unknown, and IT APPEARING that Independent Media is an Internet publisher of information,= administered by Jonathon Jay at 1415 3rd Avenue, Seattle, Washington 98101, and IT APPEARING that the Application has been made in good faith in the @erance= of a pending criminal investigation, and the Court finding that the Applicant, as the attorney for the United States, has offered specific and articulable facts showing that there are reasonable grounds to believe that the records of electronic communication sought are relevant and material to an ongoing criminal investigation. IT APPEARING that there is reason to believe that notification of the existence of this Order will result in destruction of or tampering with evidence, or will otherwise seriously jeopardize the investigation, IT IS ORDERED, pursuant to Title 18, United States Code, Section 2703(c) and= (d);Title 28, United States Code, Section 1651; and Rule 41, Federal Rules o= f Criminal Procedure, that INDEPENDENT MEDIA, 1415 3rd Avenue, Seattle, Washington 98101, a provider of electronic communications service, as define= d by Title 18, United States Code, Section 2510(15) examine all account and system/accounting log files and supply the Federal Bureau of Investigation with all information described in Attachment A to this Order. IT IS FURTHER ORDERED, pursuant to Title 18, United States Code, Section 5(b), that INDEPENDENT MEDIA, and their agents and employees, shall not disclose to the user of electronic communication service, nor to any other person, the existence of this Application or Order, or the existence of this= investigation, unless and until otherwise ordered by the Court; and IT IS FURTHER ORDERED, pursuant to Title 28, United States Code, Section 165= 1 that this Order and the Application be sealed until otherwise ordered by the= Court. DATED this 24 day of April 2001. STEPHEN C SCHROEDER Assistant United States Attorney UNITED STATES ATTORNEY Seafirst Fifth Avenue Plaza Building 800 Fifth Avenue, Suite 3600 Seattle, Washington 98104 (206) 553-7970 ATTACHMENT A All user connection logs for 216.213.32.98 for the time period beginning April 20, 2001, to the date of this Order for any connections to or from tha= t IP address. User connection logs should contain the following: 1. Connection time and date; 2. Disconnect time and date; 3. Method of connection to system (e.g., SLIP, PPP, Shell); 4. Data transfer volume (e.g., bytes); 5. Connection information for other systems to which user connected via , including: a. Connection destination; b. Connection time and date; c. Disconnect time and date; d. Method of connection to/from system (e.g., telnet, ftp, http); e. Data transfer volume (e.g., bytes); add your= own comments IP Address 216.213.32.98 isn't even IMC (!) by Incompetecy vs. fascism... who will win? 8:21pm Fri Apr 27 '01 n/a > > > Did a trace on the IP listed above-- It looks like its from Jersey City (!?) Here's the readout: IP Address: 216.213.32.98 Location: Jersey City (40.704N, 74.013W) Network: QV Trading Didn't the FBI even bother to look up the right address before they started visiting judges? I suppose if they can't be bothered to read the big print of article 1 of th= e US Constitution's Bill of Rights, they can't be expected to get minutia such= as the IP of the computer they want info from correct. Slackers... The Burning Bush....... by davido'brien 3:31am Thu May 10 '01 phone: +61 2 83001925 dogon@bigpond.com= > > > IN MY WORLD In my world there are men As holy as their wisdom As wild as they are gentle As creative as they are giving In my world there are men What about in your world? There are no mystical men here. They do not understand manhood They have not journeyed into themselves They have not yet shed their childhood skin They are lost and being punished by their anger. They live in the shadow of their fears They create that which manipulates They vibrate on levels, which disintegrate love They abscond from the commitment to exude love They defy all universal and spiritual law. They are men with no purpose. They're synthetic to the touch Their cold hearts feel me as I gaze into their abandoned eyes Their souls covered with obsolete emotion Passed on to them by fathers who never knew what a man was They are drowning in the strategic repression of man By other men. Hierarchic vampires Devouring all creative life Giving them fear, hate, anger, bewilderment Offering these tombstones to the innocence So they can watch our children become spiritless So that they may feel their desolation. Their inescape in this void of guilt and doubt. This is where they exist, their hell on earth. Where is the true wisdom men hold? When will it be unlocked from the tomb they've buried it in? When will men start taking responsibility for themselves? Instead they perish, leaving behind more turmoil. When will they stop to look? Stop to feel their true power Stop to listen to the wind Stop to love their children Stop to listen to their soul Stop to forgive other men Stop to be vulnerable to love Stop to take account of themselves When will they stop? When will they be men? And give the boy within a safe and secure resting-place. I sell fulfillment to men I castrate them from their past Disseminating stale or rotten myths I offer them a journey inward To the spectrum of manhood I want to dance with men Into the new millennium Tell them I love them Tell them I will care for them Tell them I will guide them Tell them not to fear Tell them to go home and find the love That they were denied as boys They won't find it on the outside Tell them to confront the issues, which plague their hearts Tell them to be strong Tell them to love other men Tell them to find their purpose here Tell them to turn away from old ways Tell them to look towards other men for peace Tell them to lose the addiction of lust Tell them to look at woman and be amazed Tell them to find the warrior within Tell them to be quiet Tell them to be silent Tell them to stop I sit in the playground of belligerence I watch my child play; I feel the strength of our love I am bound to this incident of my mortality I find a surety in offering her a new vision of men. Without their shrouds of silence With no exceptions With unconditional love I tell her they're in pain I tell her their daddies never loved them And their daddies didn't have time for love I tell her to give them love I tell her to find their souls for them I tell her I will show her how Then she looks at me and says 'You're a good boy dad' Then I go away and wonder if I am still a boy. I am a fanatic, I am erratic, I am psychotic I sit in my den of equilibrium Concocting spiritual warfare against naive man I am a prelude to Armageddon I am not to be taken before bed I am as real as acid rain I joust with an unevolved language Keep my visions to myself And voice my opinion only when asked. - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 11:58:24 -0700 From: Bill Vance Subject: U.N. Targets American Gun Owners (fwd) From: BOBWORN@aol.com Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 01:25:19 EDT Subject: U.N. Targets American Gun Owners In a message dated 5/12/01 10:22:50 AM Central Daylight Time, btweeksmd@mindspring.com writes: > U.N. Targets American Gun > Owners > > >> Wayne R. >> LaPierre >> Saturday, May 12, 2001 > The endgame ... includes overriding > national sovereignty regarding firearms. > > A push for United Nations action on global gun bans - expected in July - > has > been preceded with release of a propaganda video that paints its message > blood > red, and I quote: "A gun born ... a killer is on the loose ... small arms > are > not fussy about the company they keep ... and they can murder > indiscriminately." > > > This film - "Armed to the Teeth: The Worldwide Plague of Small Arms" -is a > prelude to a U.N. conference on a global gun control scheme that could > affect > Americans' future right to keep and bear arms. > > "The United Nations Conference on the Illicit Trade in Small Arms and All > Its > Aspects" will be held in July at U.N. headquarters in New York. > > This sounds like an effort to target gunrunners and terrorists, but only in > part. And therein is the trap. Opposition to the U.N. summit will be > smeared as > support for international crime. That would be a lie. Our opposition stems > from > something that should be dear to all Americans - our national sovereignty > and > individual freedom. > > This summer's conference culminates years of work by a host of leftist > groups, many working under the direction of the International Action > Network on > Small Arms (IANSA) and the U.N. Preparatory Committee (PrepCom), which met > this > past January and published a manifesto they hope will override our Bill of > Rights. > > It is called the "Draft Programme of Action ... ." In its foggy dialectic, > "illicit" doesn't mean what a reasonable person might think it means. In > their > translation, our guns are also ultimately "illicit" guns. Further, "All Its > Aspects" also covers legal commerce in firearms, and legal private > ownership. > > Among those associated with IANSA's worldwide gun ban efforts are: > Coalition > for Gun Control, Canada; Coalition for Gun Control, New Zealand; Coalition > to > Stop Gun Violence, U.S.; Million Mom March, U.S.; and National Coalition > for Gun > Control, Australia. > > These groups seek worldwide gun control measures that include international > firearms registration and primacy of the "world criminal court" over > violations. > > > The IANSA lists among its major funding sources: the Ford Foundation, the > Rockefeller Foundation, Ploughshears Fund, The Compton Foundation, Belgian > Ministry for Development Cooperation, Swedish Ministry for Foreign Affairs, > Netherlands Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the United Kingdom Department > for > International Development. > > Virtually alone against this array of richly funded international pressure > groups is the NRA. > > The Bulletin of Atomic Scientists advises, "If activists want to fight the > NRA and like-minded groups on the international level, they must confront > them > at home, because domestic and international weapons issues are > intertwined." > > Anyone who argues that this international battle is only about terrorists > and > illegal guns need only look at what the global gun control forces are > saying. In > a pre-conference planning session in January, IANSA reported, "The speakers > urged the Conference to take action in key areas affecting both the legal > and > illegal trade including ... controls on the availability, use and storage > of > small arms within states, including strong domestic firearms regulation as > well > as a prohibition on the sale and possession of military weapons by > civilians." > And in their view, any firearm ever used by any armed forces or based on > military design is a "military" weapon. > > The endgame - which includes the aggressive use of "transnational" power, > thus overriding national sovereignty regarding firearms - is the collection > and > destruction of firearms, including guns from what they condescendingly call > in > U.N. bureaucratese "civil society." That's you and me. > > The Draft Programme demands the U.N. be empowered: "To ensure that all > confiscated, seized or collected small arms and light weapons are destroyed > expeditiously ... To encourage States [countries], in the interests of > awareness > raising and confidence building, to carry out public destruction events. To > develop a reference manual on ecologically safe methods of small arms and > light > weapons destruction." > > What they are really after is all guns, worldwide, save for those in the > hands of governments and the elite. > > There is no doubt that American gun owners are the target. In the short > term, > the global disarmament crowd, at the very least, will open a campaign to > shame > America into joining its English-speaking cousins in Canada and > crime-ravaged > Britain and Australia. > > The stated goal of the U.N. gun control boosters is "eliminating the > conditions that foster reliance on private arms for self-defense." Well, > the > primary "conditions" are a knowledge of history and a love of freedom. > > There are watchwords for who we are: independent, strong, and free. > > And at the forefront of our independence, strength and freedom today is the > NRA. > > Wayne R. LaPierre is executive vice president of the National Rifle > Association. > > > > Read more on this subject in related Hot Topics: > > Guns/Gun Control > > United Nations - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 23:23:00 -0700 From: Bill Vance Subject: The rights of juries take another hit. (fwd) From: Swftl@aol.com Subject: {SD-2} The rights of juries take another hit. Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 18:33:36 EDT Like a cancer, the police state just keeps growing. Politicians continue to pass laws which erorde the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Judges continue to uphold these laws. (Isn't that a surprise? After all, guess who appoints the judges?) And judges continue to try to take away the rights of juries. >From http://www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/2001/May-13-Sun-2001/opinion/16064853.html Sunday, May 13, 2001 Copyright Las Vegas Review-Journal COLUMN: Vin Suprynowicz The rights of juries take another hit The courts this week took another stab at gutting the traditional power of jurors to refuse to enforce bad or stupid laws, as the seven-member California Supreme Court unanimously backed a Santa Clara County judge's actions in dismissing a juror who expressed the opinion during deliberations that statutory rape shouldn't be a crime. "Under California's 1998 `snitch' rule," Associated Press writer David Kravets reports, "judges routinely order jurors to inform the court if a juror is not applying the law during deliberations. That is what happened in the case decided Monday." An alternate juror stepped in to replace the uncooperative member of the panel, and the jury --thus reorganized and stacked in favor of conviction -- duly rendered a conviction. "Jury nullification is contrary to our ideal of equal justice for all and permits both the prosecution's case and the defendant's fate to depend upon the whims of a particular jury, rather than upon the equal application of settled rules of law," Chief Justice Ronald M. George wrote for the seven San Francisco lawyer-politicians. Which is nonsense on several counts. First, the Sixth Amendment means precisely that a defendant can be acquitted based on "the whims of a particular jury." What else does the dishonored Mr. George think it means? That the government gets to keep trying the case before jury after jury, no matter how many choose to acquit? Second, no jury can convict a defendant of any charge beyond what prosecutors have presented and the judge has allowed -- any such conviction would be instantly set aside by the court. So this stated concern for "the defendant's fate" is pure doggerel. Fully-informed juries can displease the courts only by acquitting when both prosecutors (the one in front of the bench, and the black-robed one behind it) would rather cut another notch in their barrels -- they can err only on the side of mercy. But more significantly, the D.C. Court of Appeals confirmed in 1972, in one of the biggest Vietnam draft-dodger cases, that our modern juries today still retain "an unreviewable and irreversible power ... to acquit in disregard of the instructions on the law given by the trial judge. The pages of history shine upon instances of the jury's exercise of its prerogative to disregard instructions of the judge; for instance, acquittals under the fugitive slave law." Not to mention the case that gave America its freedom of the press, the 1735 prosecution of John Peter Zenger for publishing "seditious libels" against the king. Defense attorney Andrew Hamilton admitted Zenger had published the stuff (truth was considered no defense.) But the jury acquitted him anyway -- they simply decided the law sucked. I called Houston appellate attorney Clay Conrad, author of the 1998 book "Jury Nullification: The Evolution of a Doctrine" (Carolina Academic Press) to ask about this latest pathetic attempt by the professional judges to dilute the traditional rights and powers of the increasingly inconvenient citizen jury. "This is one area where the courts blunder and stumble and can't figure out what to do," Conrad told me. "All they can do is stomp their feet and say, `We don't like it.' ... "But now that you know the other jurors can snitch on you, what's that going to do? Jurors will be less willing to raise a discussion of whether the law is appropriate, but they're still free to just say, 'I refuse to convict; I still think there's a reasonable doubt.' So since there can't be a forthright discussion of the possible reasons to acquit, the chances grow that you'll have hung juries." Isn't that almost as good for defendants? Few prosecutors will continue to re-try cases where juries are hung time after time. "What we'll see now are more hung juries, and then their next target will be the unanimous jury rule," Conrad responded. "The Constitution lets them go down to 9-to-3, so that's what you can expect them to start pushing next." Is there any chance these judges are right -- that jurors aren't supposed to judge the law? "The way we interpret what trial-by-jury means is by the common law, what the practice was at the time of the Founders," Conrad replied. "And the history is unassailable, that this is a power the jury had, the history is just rock solid on this. ... Indiana and Maryland still have it in their state constitutions, that juries have the right `to judge the law as well as the facts.' ... "And then a lot of states are in the situation we have here in Texas. The Texas Constitution says, `In libel cases the jury shall have the right to decide the law as well as the facts, as in other cases.' But the state courts have simply ruled that's no longer relevant, because it's an anachronism. Can you imagine? They've ruled their own constitution is `an anachronism.' " Nearly as anachronistic, I suppose, as the words of John Jay, first Chief Justice of the United States, who said in charging the jury in Georgia vs. Brailsford, 1794, "You [the jurors] have, nevertheless, a right to take upon yourselves to judge of both, and to determine the law as well as the fact in controversy." Thank goodness our judges, like those in California, no longer have to take an oath of office binding them to "protect and defend" a Constitution written by such men as John Jay. Think how inconvenient that would be. Vin Suprynowicz, the Review-Journal's assistant editorial page editor, is author of "Send in the Waco Killers." His column appears Sunday. - ----- End forwarded message ----- - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 23:24:46 -0700 From: Bill Vance Subject: Hannity is talking about getting the US out of the UN; let's support him! (fwd) From: Rich Martin Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 20:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: {Radio} Sean Hannity is talking about getting the US out of the UN; let's support him! Subject: [piml] Sean Hannity is talking about getting the US out of the UN; let's support him! Friends, Sean Hannity has a large audience and can put pressure on to get us out of the clutches of the UN. Let's support him by letting him know that we appreciate him talking about it on his highly rated TV show, and ask that he keep up the momentum. I wrote and asked him if he would get Congressman Ron Paul on to talk about it. Maybe you all can think of other folks we can suggest. It's at least a start! God bless, Barb ======================================================================= Subject: Our crusade is heating up. Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 05:57:55 EDT Come on, let's all take an active part in this and see how far we can make it go, it could catch fire...Bill ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ MORE GOOD NEWS! NEWS UPDATE! Our crusade is heating up. "GET US OUT! OF THE UNITED NATIONS" Mr. Sean Hannity at FOX TV NEWS says he is hearing from folks back home, and so, he continues asking this wonderful question: "SHOULD THE US GET OUT OF THE UNITED NATIONS?" Unbelievably, Hannity has asked that perfect question at least four times on two separate tv programs in five days, once being a May 9th interview with Jeane Kirkpatrick, former Ambassador to the UN. Recommended action: Let's turn up the heat! Catch the wave and create a wave. A continuing stream of support to Hannity by email, snail mail, phone and fax. Hannity has a small army of mail readers, so that is why I am sending several pieces of snail mail and several pieces of email each day plus faxes and phone calls. You can too. Emails to hannity@foxnews.com, and news@foxnews.com. Snail mail to: Hannity Fox News 1211 Ave. of the Americas NY, NY 10036 Phone: Call Fox News with your comments 24 / 7 toll free 1-888-369-4762, press extension 3. Fax : 212-301-8274 Support Hannity's efforts to focus on the subversive United Nations, and let Hannity know he needs even more discussion about the UN. Hannity should contact the National Committee to Get US out of the UN, located in Appleton, Wisconsin. You could be very surprised at what a few dedicated Americans can accomplish. Please forward this letter to others who are already informed. Those wanting to brush up on the UN can go to www.thenewamerican.com "The truth can set us free" Don C Hannibal, MO - ----------------------------- A Christian Patriot Hosea 4:6 - ----- End forwarded message ----- - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 10:32:58 -0500 From: "Ira Wilsker " Subject: S&W Bought out! Look at: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/010514/0301.html S&W has been taken over! ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.ih2000.net - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #441 *************************