From: owner-utah-astronomy-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-astronomy-digest) To: utah-astronomy-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-astronomy-digest V1 #51 Reply-To: utah-astronomy-digest Sender: owner-utah-astronomy-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-astronomy-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-astronomy-digest Wednesday, August 29 2001 Volume 01 : Number 051 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:25:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Chuck Hards Subject: RE: (utah-astronomy) light pollution This guy has three kids in high-school, and there is always a late-night basketball game in his driveway. Unfortunately, the entire neighborhood is populated with people who are confrontational. When I tell them about a lighting problem, they say "sue me". Obviously I can't afford to take even a small percentage of my neighbors to court over an issue like this. These people are good, hard-working people, for the most part, but there is little sense of community. Most are taking their own personal stand against anyone or anything that threatens their command of their own property. They just don't understand the issue, and don't really want to, or don't have the capacity to. "Light Trespass" is a concept utterly foreign and incomprehensible to them. And for the few who do understand, they feel that it's a trivial issue and not worth their time to remedy. I and people like me are "whackos without enough to do". My preferred solution is to move, if I could find work in a rural community with few outdoor lights, I'd be gone tomorrow. As I said before, this place is a lost cause. You can only reason with dolts so long before realizing that you're getting nowhere. Only two things will work: Forced legislation, or a methodical, constant media campaign. Chuck - --- "Steinicke, Brett" wrote: > That is too bad. Maybe you should help shield it for > him some night, I'm > sure you could find some teenagers willing to shield > it completely with a > wrist rocket. Then you could discuss overshielding > and proper shielding. > > Brett __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - - Visit the Utah Astronomy Message Board: http://pub61.ezboard.com/butahastronomy To unsubscribe from utah-astronomy, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe utah-astronomy" in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:26:34 -0600 From: Paul Witte Subject: RE: (utah-astronomy) light pollution - ------ =_NextPart_000_01C12FBC.AD5D1400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Orem City has started installing their new streetlights and apparently = I'm not the only one that isn't happy about it. =20 This ran on the front page of the herald today: http://www.harktheherald.com/article.php?sid=3D23142&mode=3Dthread&order=3D= 0 You may want to at least mention the complaints Orem is getting in your = article, the lighting is HORRIBLE! I have driven by these new lights at = night and the glare in your eyes makes it difficult to see the road. = I've also seen that some people who have the streetlights in their front = yard have hung blankets in their windows. The sad thing is there were = several people from UVAA (Rich Tenney & Mark Dakins among them) who took = the time to attend the city council meetings and specifically warned = them about this stuff. They outright disregarded everything they said. = I'm just glad I don't live in Orem anymore or I'd be investing in some = black paint and/or a shotgun. - ---------- From: Joe Bauman Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 10:04 AM To: utah-astronomy@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: (utah-astronomy) light pollution Thanks, Chuck! -- Best, Joe - - Visit the Utah Astronomy Message Board: http://pub61.ezboard.com/butahastronomy To unsubscribe from utah-astronomy, send an email to = "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe utah-astronomy" in the body of the message. - ------ =_NextPart_000_01C12FBC.AD5D1400 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IiMSAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAYAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAYQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHV0YWgtYXN0cm9ub215 QGxpc3RzLnhtaXNzaW9uLmNvbQBTTVRQAHV0YWgtYXN0cm9ub215QGxpc3RzLnhtaXNzaW9uLmNv bQAAAAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAIgAAAHV0YWgtYXN0cm9ub215QGxpc3Rz LnhtaXNzaW9uLmNvbQAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAACQAAAAndXRhaC1hc3Ryb25v bXlAbGlzdHMueG1pc3Npb24uY29tJwACAQswAQAAACcAAABTTVRQOlVUQUgtQVNUUk9OT01ZQExJ U1RTLlhNSVNTSU9OLkNPTQAAAwAAOQAAAAALAEA6AQAAAAIB9g8BAAAABAAAAAAAAAITTwEEgAEA JQAAAFJFOiAodXRhaC1hc3Ryb25vbXkpIGxpZ2h0IHBvbGx1dGlvbgBLDQEFgAMADgAAANEHCAAc AAwAGgAiAAIARgEBIIADAA4AAADRBwgAHAAMAAwADwACACUBAQmAAQAhAAAAQzk5NTk4MDA1NTdD QUE0MzlEMzkyQzk0NjlGRUNGN0YAUwcBA5AGAHAGAAAUAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsAKQAA AAAAAwAuAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQBAq0/37i/BAR4AcAABAAAAJQAAAFJFOiAodXRhaC1hc3Ry b25vbXkpIGxpZ2h0IHBvbGx1dGlvbgAAAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABwS/u90+KI77sY/hKF6Iem1PI pxv9AAAeAB4MAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAAEgAAAHF1ZXN0b3J0QGhvbWUuY29tAAAA AwAGEFr6oB4DAAcQPgQAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAE9SRU1DSVRZSEFTU1RBUlRFRElOU1RBTExJTkdU SEVJUk5FV1NUUkVFVExJR0hUU0FOREFQUEFSRU5UTFlJTU5PVFRIRU9OTFlPTkVUSEFUSVNOVEhB UFBZQUJPVVRJVFRISVMAAAAAAgEJEAEAAADVBAAA0QQAAA4IAABMWkZ1B5dQywMACgByY3BnMTI1 /jIA/wIGAqQD5AXrAoMAUBMDVAIAY2gKwHNldP4yBgAGwwKDDlAD1QcTAoO6MxPNfQqACM8J2TsW v70OMDUCgAqBDnELYG4OELwwMxTgCwoU4gwBYwBABCBPFsBtIENpdOx5IBKABCBzAZAAIAmAJiAL gByBbGwLgGcg0HRoZWkFwG4H0RyAxQnRdB1gZ2h0BCAAcHkc4GFwCrEJ8B6gHCBJsicb0G5vBUAd sSACIG8f4QIgILAdsGEFQAQAbv4nBUASgB9wHCABoAhgIZEwdC4gIAqFCoVUaPkEACByA5ECICCD A1ECMOogCrBnILFmIIMdwCRQimwc4HQEcGF5OiMsgR7gdHA6Ly93KEBaLhKBax2xJiQuBaBtBi8c oQ3gbGUucGgEcD8AkGQ9MjMxaDQyJgRiPR2wFsBhbGQmBbAEgT0KdgqFWW0IYCAAwBwgdwBwIHFv fx8QBUAp8BxQBUAHgAIwaf8klSlhC1Me8RujJCElgAJAcx1yC4AgeQhhHxAptCwPIIMeszDTBCBI T1JSoElCTEUhIwBJHDG6diCwZAUQNBADoGIcIP8dsRKwHgMetgVAAwAe0R8TnSCSZwtgFsAxB2V5 B5G9AMBrB5EcADQwBpBmDeD8dWwtwxKwIUIgsANgK5DvIvEgEDQRB0BzOXMkoiGBZzrwB4AlUGVv C1AgsHf+aC3wM/Mgkh5bMREdtCUE5nkLETPkaHUdgQJgAHCPOFA9+gPwHzBvd3Mi8X8kAD0xK5Ad oTK1HbE3MXc/QvISsDQQJkE8BgNSIFVAVkFBIChSDeBobyPwCfAeEBwgJgXQKJEgPkQ4QB0BHxAE YB2EbSn7PHMmkG9GMCCSKcA74S3j+xzANpVjHAIFoD/ASYADIO8HgBLAHXEfBHM8EEmAOPH/HUEt cgSgHNFHIiJlQkEcYv51DpBBlCEBIqAFEDZCOMC6cxbAZwsRHNFDknlCRD8dsRwgQgAqcDpTG9Bq df8ucTcBHOAz0EFQIdIdYDQR/zERG6MAcAbABbAgsQXAIBD9HOBiN0I0EByAMNU7w0ABXmNGMAqw L8EfEi8FsWHTHHA8kHRnP8AuC0YTso8bNSMsCvQdYDE4MALR9GktKsA0DrAM0FpDC1lcMTYKoANg HMBjBUAtX1xnCodbGwwwW+ZGA2E6R11uW+YMgiBKbyCwQvxhdQOBXQ9eHQZgAjBfTzVgW1QKUHMm sTIAQXWzVvAucTI4MgAB0DAbgNEZ4DowNBQwTWHPXh0cVG9kD2BbIqBhaC3nLmElEQNweUAdYByA QYB8eG0EAS7hKVJn/2LedZxialwhah9gW1JlcHD+KGv8R2AesyVQBvAKQC7S81hvWXMzNlrnGvVp dxKA9UAwczIAQz+wVZAzoFxgf2FQVHEyAGEhIywjLFz2IO5WBAA4kSCSVWwBFDBsVu8F0AeQQgAl gUI6IAsgJuYFJ8ZwcBA2MS5levcG4AsRKVNia/JsR3sWafD/a+AAgHAQBPJUEURza/wyAH8SsB8y A6AbwAtwAyAt4SJNAMBqK8EDcG9AbUoiv3sWA/AdsISwgapr/CI+Fb80oARwIQElxAeBfVIudQ9f WudXtVvmCoUV4QCN0AAAAAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAEAAABAAAcwgNyU9+wvwQFAAAgwgNyU9+wvwQEe AD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAAMADTT9NwAA9O4= - ------ =_NextPart_000_01C12FBC.AD5D1400-- - - Visit the Utah Astronomy Message Board: http://pub61.ezboard.com/butahastronomy To unsubscribe from utah-astronomy, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe utah-astronomy" in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 16:27:11 EDT From: RStmarie@aol.com Subject: Re: (utah-astronomy) light pollution - --part1_111.496992d.28bd589f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brett, everyone knows tail lights are red in Utah due to doppler shift! Have you noticed headlights are getting bluer? - --part1_111.496992d.28bd589f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brett, everyone knows tail lights are red in Utah due to doppler shift!   
Have you noticed headlights are getting bluer? - --part1_111.496992d.28bd589f_boundary-- - - Visit the Utah Astronomy Message Board: http://pub61.ezboard.com/butahastronomy To unsubscribe from utah-astronomy, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe utah-astronomy" in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:33:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Richard Tenney Subject: RE: (utah-astronomy) light pollution Any lawyers in our midst? Perhaps one of more of us could file a lawsuit over the pollution aspect of stray light, something like getting a noise ordinance going in a given community. I wonder what kind of wide-ranging precedent that might set for similar lawsuits that could turn the whole streetlighting thing on its ear...? Something to think about anyway... I can certainly empathize with Chuck and his frustration with the general mindset of this community. But if all the good people move away Chuck, all hope of any catalyst for good also vanishes... a sad thought! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - - Visit the Utah Astronomy Message Board: http://pub61.ezboard.com/butahastronomy To unsubscribe from utah-astronomy, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe utah-astronomy" in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 16:35:22 EDT From: RStmarie@aol.com Subject: Re: (utah-astronomy) light pollution - --part1_134.c64b28.28bd5a8a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe, I sent you a Farmington city lighting brochure which begged people to leave lights on all night. Bad, bad, bad. It encouraged waste. It encouraged the wrong type of lighting. You can get one at the Farmington City Office. If I get by there I'll pick one up and send it your way. Might be a bit as I am in Tulsa. - --part1_134.c64b28.28bd5a8a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe, I sent you a Farmington city lighting brochure which begged people to
leave lights on all night.  Bad, bad, bad.  It encouraged waste.  It
encouraged the wrong type of lighting.  You can get one at the Farmington
City Office.  If I get by there I'll pick one up and send it your way.  Might
be a bit as I am in Tulsa. - --part1_134.c64b28.28bd5a8a_boundary-- - - Visit the Utah Astronomy Message Board: http://pub61.ezboard.com/butahastronomy To unsubscribe from utah-astronomy, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe utah-astronomy" in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:48:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Richard Tenney Subject: RE: (utah-astronomy) light pollution A fine example of how stupid some people are over this issue, one woman stood up in the Orem City Council discussion over the streetlight issue and suggested that we actually needed spotlights shining on the upper stories of apartment buildings for safety sake, as some cat-burgular might want to scale up the side of a tall building and sneak in her balcony window. Heaven help us! "Paranoia runs deep" as the old song goes... I've found that it usually doesn't help to appeal to people's sense of aesthetics over the lost night sky, dim stars, lost milky way, etc. Most people unfortunately seem to give a rat's rear-end about aesthetics (just look at the kind of filth most of them are willing to call "home" and the kinds of crap they stuff down their throat that is laughably passed off as food to see how far removed they are from caring about anything as an example). But stress the economics of bad lighting and you might get their attention. - --- Paul Witte wrote: > Orem City has started installing their new > streetlights and apparently I'm not the only one > that isn't happy about it. > > This ran on the front page of the herald today: > > http://www.harktheherald.com/article.php?sid=23142&mode=thread&order=0 > > You may want to at least mention the complaints Orem > is getting in your article, the lighting is > HORRIBLE! I have driven by these new lights at > night and the glare in your eyes makes it difficult > to see the road. I've also seen that some people > who have the streetlights in their front yard have > hung blankets in their windows. The sad thing is > there were several people from UVAA (Rich Tenney & > Mark Dakins among them) who took the time to attend > the city council meetings and specifically warned > them about this stuff. They outright disregarded > everything they said. I'm just glad I don't live in > Orem anymore or I'd be investing in some black paint > and/or a shotgun. > > ---------- > From: Joe Bauman > Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 10:04 AM > To: utah-astronomy@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: (utah-astronomy) light pollution > > Thanks, Chuck! -- Best, Joe > > > > - > Visit the Utah Astronomy Message Board: > http://pub61.ezboard.com/butahastronomy > To unsubscribe from utah-astronomy, send an email > to "majordomo@xmission.com" > with "unsubscribe utah-astronomy" in the body of > the message. > > ATTACHMENT part 2 application/ms-tnef __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - - Visit the Utah Astronomy Message Board: http://pub61.ezboard.com/butahastronomy To unsubscribe from utah-astronomy, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe utah-astronomy" in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:15:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Chuck Hards Subject: RE: (utah-astronomy) light pollution Rich has it right. This needs to be approached as a matter for environmental law, and ecconomics. Sorry if I seem to be throwing my hands up in the air and walking away, but I'm tired of beating my head against a brick wall. I can't seem to make any progress alone, even in my own little corner of the world. We truly need to band together to win this fight, and enlist the power of the press. We are very lucky to have Joe Bauman in our midst in this regard. Some of my frustration stems from the fact that when we bought our lot, it was in a rather dark "pocket" of West Valley, surrounded by fields and "horse property". Within two years, we had half a dozen new car dealerships and shopping centers within a mile of the house. "If you come, they will build it", to mangle the old expression. Not just lawyers, but lighting engineers who truly know the difference between good and bad lighting need to be co-opted. Ammunition for the courts. It would really be a shame (and a sign of the times) if astronomy clubs had to start apportioning some of their meager budgets for litigation. Perhaps when SPOC-2 is complete, we can turn Siegfried loose on raising funds for our environmental-defense fund! ;) Seriously, we need to talk to the birders and Sierra Clubbers; our interests are similar with respect to light pollution. Chuck - --- Richard Tenney wrote: > Any lawyers in our midst? > > Perhaps one of more of us could file a lawsuit over > the pollution aspect of stray light, something like > getting a noise ordinance going in a given > community. > I wonder what kind of wide-ranging precedent that > might set for similar lawsuits that could turn the > whole streetlighting thing on its ear...? > > Something to think about anyway... > > I can certainly empathize with Chuck and his > frustration with the general mindset of this > community. But if all the good people move away > Chuck, all hope of any catalyst for good also > vanishes... a sad thought! > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute > with Yahoo! Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > > - > Visit the Utah Astronomy Message Board: > http://pub61.ezboard.com/butahastronomy > To unsubscribe from utah-astronomy, send an email > to "majordomo@xmission.com" > with "unsubscribe utah-astronomy" in the body of > the message. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - - Visit the Utah Astronomy Message Board: http://pub61.ezboard.com/butahastronomy To unsubscribe from utah-astronomy, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe utah-astronomy" in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:15:26 -0400 From: "Steinicke, Brett" Subject: RE: (utah-astronomy) light pollution This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C13006.8E686D70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Yes I think it is because of the big wide I-15. It seems to make feet heavier as well. Brett - -----Original Message----- From: RStmarie@aol.com [mailto:RStmarie@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 2:27 PM To: utah-astronomy@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: (utah-astronomy) light pollution Brett, everyone knows tail lights are red in Utah due to doppler shift! Have you noticed headlights are getting bluer? - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C13006.8E686D70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Yes I think it is because of the big wide I-15. It seems to make feet heavier as well.
 
Brett
-----Original Message-----
From: RStmarie@aol.com [mailto:RStmarie@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 2:27 PM
To: utah-astronomy@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: (utah-astronomy) light pollution

Brett, everyone knows tail lights are red in Utah due to doppler shift!   
Have you noticed headlights are getting bluer?
- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C13006.8E686D70-- - - Visit the Utah Astronomy Message Board: http://pub61.ezboard.com/butahastronomy To unsubscribe from utah-astronomy, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe utah-astronomy" in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:41:45 -0700 From: "Brent Watson" Subject: Re: (utah-astronomy) light pollution Perhaps we should celebrate some of the successes we have had in Utah. Last weekend the Ogden Astronomical Society sponsored a star party at a Weber County ski resort (sorry, I can't remember which one.) to help say thanks for the new lighting and anti light pollution laws passed in Weber County. There is some headway being made! Joe, Sandy City decided to install new lighting also. When I fly at night, it is VERY easy to see where the city boundary is. The city of Sandy is significantly brighter than the communities to the north. It should be very easy to get an arial photo that shows the difference. Brent - - Visit the Utah Astronomy Message Board: http://pub61.ezboard.com/butahastronomy To unsubscribe from utah-astronomy, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe utah-astronomy" in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:15:03 -0700 From: "William Kelley" Subject: Re: (utah-astronomy) light pollution - ----- Original Message ----- From: Brent Watson To: Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 3:41 PM Subject: Re: (utah-astronomy) light pollution > Perhaps we should celebrate some of the successes we have had in Utah. Last > weekend the Ogden Astronomical Society sponsored a star party at a Weber > County ski resort (sorry, I can't remember which one.) to help say thanks > for the new lighting and anti light pollution laws passed in Weber County. > There is some headway being made! > > Joe, Sandy City decided to install new lighting also. When I fly at night, > it is VERY easy to see where the city boundary is. The city of Sandy is > significantly brighter than the communities to the north. It should be very > easy to get an arial photo that shows the difference. > > Brent > > > - > Visit the Utah Astronomy Message Board: > http://pub61.ezboard.com/butahastronomy > To unsubscribe from utah-astronomy, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" > with "unsubscribe utah-astronomy" in the body of the message. > - - Visit the Utah Astronomy Message Board: http://pub61.ezboard.com/butahastronomy To unsubscribe from utah-astronomy, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe utah-astronomy" in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:16:37 -0700 From: "William Kelley" Subject: Re: (utah-astronomy) light pollution Sorry Brent- I didn't mean to hit the send button with your post on the screen. Regards- Bill Kelley - ----- Original Message ----- From: Brent Watson To: Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 3:41 PM Subject: Re: (utah-astronomy) light pollution > Perhaps we should celebrate some of the successes we have had in Utah. Last > weekend the Ogden Astronomical Society sponsored a star party at a Weber > County ski resort (sorry, I can't remember which one.) to help say thanks > for the new lighting and anti light pollution laws passed in Weber County. > There is some headway being made! > > Joe, Sandy City decided to install new lighting also. When I fly at night, > it is VERY easy to see where the city boundary is. The city of Sandy is > significantly brighter than the communities to the north. It should be very > easy to get an arial photo that shows the difference. > > Brent > > > - > Visit the Utah Astronomy Message Board: > http://pub61.ezboard.com/butahastronomy > To unsubscribe from utah-astronomy, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" > with "unsubscribe utah-astronomy" in the body of the message. > - - Visit the Utah Astronomy Message Board: http://pub61.ezboard.com/butahastronomy To unsubscribe from utah-astronomy, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe utah-astronomy" in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:50:44 -0600 From: Chris Russell Subject: Re: (utah-astronomy) light pollution I second this opinion. I live not far from a street that has these new lights on it, and the lights are terrible! I do not look forward to having one these installed in my front yard. It's almost as if Orem has so much money it doesn't know what to do with it. I have a good idea that I'm sure never crossed their minds...take the costs of the lights, cut taxes by the same amount, and then let homeowners use what they save in taxes to light their own property if they want to (preferrably with motion sensor lights). Perhaps it's time to move out of Orem... On Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:26:34 -0600 Paul Witte wrote: > Orem City has started installing their new streetlights and apparently I'm not the only one that isn't happy about it. > > This ran on the front page of the herald today: > > http://www.harktheherald.com/article.php?sid=23142&mode=thread&order=0 > > You may want to at least mention the complaints Orem is getting in your article, the lighting is HORRIBLE! I have driven by these new lights at night and the glare in your eyes makes it difficult to see the road. I've also seen that some people who have the streetlights in their front yard have hung blankets in their windows. The sad thing is there were several people from UVAA (Rich Tenney & Mark Dakins among them) who took the time to attend the city council meetings and specifically warned them about this stuff. They outright disregarded everything they said. I'm just glad I don't live in Orem anymore or I'd be investing in some black paint and/or a shotgun. > > ---------- > From: Joe Bauman > Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 10:04 AM > To: utah-astronomy@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: (utah-astronomy) light pollution > > Thanks, Chuck! -- Best, Joe > > > > - > Visit the Utah Astronomy Message Board: > http://pub61.ezboard.com/butahastronomy > To unsubscribe from utah-astronomy, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" > with "unsubscribe utah-astronomy" in the body of the message. > - - Visit the Utah Astronomy Message Board: http://pub61.ezboard.com/butahastronomy To unsubscribe from utah-astronomy, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe utah-astronomy" in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 06:52:06 -0600 From: David Dunn Subject: RE: (utah-astronomy) light pollution The star party at Powder Mountain is likely to become an annual event. Weber State has 2 acres of land at the top of Powder Mountain to build an observatory. When Weber County was debating a lighting ordinance for Ogden valley John Sohl attended the meeting and mentioned the observatory sight. The residents were interested in this and the lighting ordinance passed. He told them that we would hold a star party at the sight and invite them up to see it. The star party was real nice. Even with a first quarter moon, we were able to see the Milkyway. We were able to pick out the central star in the Cat's Eye and several other darksky wonders. We had 60 or 70 people come up and had at least 10 telescopes. It was real enjoyable. If anyone has a couple of million dollars that they need to part with, I am sure that John would love to build the observatory. - -----Original Message----- From: Brent Watson [mailto:watsonbj@qwest.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 4:42 PM To: utah-astronomy@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: (utah-astronomy) light pollution Perhaps we should celebrate some of the successes we have had in Utah. Last weekend the Ogden Astronomical Society sponsored a star party at a Weber County ski resort (sorry, I can't remember which one.) to help say thanks for the new lighting and anti light pollution laws passed in Weber County. There is some headway being made! Joe, Sandy City decided to install new lighting also. When I fly at night, it is VERY easy to see where the city boundary is. The city of Sandy is significantly brighter than the communities to the north. It should be very easy to get an arial photo that shows the difference. Brent - - Visit the Utah Astronomy Message Board: http://pub61.ezboard.com/butahastronomy To unsubscribe from utah-astronomy, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe utah-astronomy" in the body of the message. - - Visit the Utah Astronomy Message Board: http://pub61.ezboard.com/butahastronomy To unsubscribe from utah-astronomy, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe utah-astronomy" in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 10:24:41 -0400 From: "Steinicke, Brett" Subject: RE: (utah-astronomy) light pollution This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C13096.579C1900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" You gotta mention the IDA: http://www.darksky.org/ida/index.html - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C13096.579C1900 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" RE: (utah-astronomy) light pollution
You gotta mention the IDA:
http://www.darksky.org/ida/index.html

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C13096.579C1900-- - - Visit the Utah Astronomy Message Board: http://pub61.ezboard.com/butahastronomy To unsubscribe from utah-astronomy, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe utah-astronomy" in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:32:59 -0600 From: Joe Bauman Subject: RE: (utah-astronomy) light pollution Exactly! -- jb - - Visit the Utah Astronomy Message Board: http://pub61.ezboard.com/butahastronomy To unsubscribe from utah-astronomy, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe utah-astronomy" in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:54:24 -0600 From: Paul Witte Subject: RE: (utah-astronomy) light pollution - ------ =_NextPart_000_01C13081.5E655C20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Did you read some of the comments people had entered about that article? = I think it certainly proves Chuck's view of the attitudes of Utahns. = Pretty pathetic. General attitude of, "So you don't like the new = lights, then move!". =20 - ---------- From: Chris Russell Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 9:50 PM To: utah-astronomy@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: (utah-astronomy) light pollution I second this opinion. I live not far from a street that has these new = lights on it, and the lights are terrible! I do not look forward to = having one these installed in my front yard. It's almost as if Orem has = so much money it doesn't know what to do with it. I have a good idea = that I'm sure never crossed their minds...take the costs of the lights, = cut taxes by the same amount, and then let homeowners use what they save = in taxes to light their own property if they want to (preferrably with = motion sensor lights). Perhaps it's time to move out of Orem... On Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:26:34 -0600 Paul Witte wrote: > Orem City has started installing their new streetlights and apparently = I'm not the only one that isn't happy about it. =20 >=20 > This ran on the front page of the herald today: >=20 > = http://www.harktheherald.com/article.php?sid=3D23142&mode=3Dthread&order=3D= 0 >=20 > You may want to at least mention the complaints Orem is getting in = your article, the lighting is HORRIBLE! I have driven by these new = lights at night and the glare in your eyes makes it difficult to see the = road. I've also seen that some people who have the streetlights in = their front yard have hung blankets in their windows. The sad thing is = there were several people from UVAA (Rich Tenney & Mark Dakins among = them) who took the time to attend the city council meetings and = specifically warned them about this stuff. They outright disregarded = everything they said. I'm just glad I don't live in Orem anymore or I'd = be investing in some black paint and/or a shotgun. >=20 > ---------- > From: Joe Bauman > Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 10:04 AM > To: utah-astronomy@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: (utah-astronomy) light pollution >=20 > Thanks, Chuck! -- Best, Joe >=20 >=20 >=20 > - > Visit the Utah Astronomy Message Board: > http://pub61.ezboard.com/butahastronomy > To unsubscribe from utah-astronomy, send an email to = "majordomo@xmission.com" > with "unsubscribe utah-astronomy" in the body of the message. >=20 - - Visit the Utah Astronomy Message Board: http://pub61.ezboard.com/butahastronomy To unsubscribe from utah-astronomy, send an email to = "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe utah-astronomy" in the body of the message. - ------ =_NextPart_000_01C13081.5E655C20 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IiERAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAYAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAYQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHV0YWgtYXN0cm9ub215 QGxpc3RzLnhtaXNzaW9uLmNvbQBTTVRQAHV0YWgtYXN0cm9ub215QGxpc3RzLnhtaXNzaW9uLmNv bQAAAAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAIgAAAHV0YWgtYXN0cm9ub215QGxpc3Rz LnhtaXNzaW9uLmNvbQAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAACQAAAAndXRhaC1hc3Ryb25v bXlAbGlzdHMueG1pc3Npb24uY29tJwACAQswAQAAACcAAABTTVRQOlVUQUgtQVNUUk9OT01ZQExJ U1RTLlhNSVNTSU9OLkNPTQAAAwAAOQAAAAALAEA6AQAAAAIB9g8BAAAABAAAAAAAAAITTwEEgAEA JQAAAFJFOiAodXRhaC1hc3Ryb25vbXkpIGxpZ2h0IHBvbGx1dGlvbgBLDQEFgAMADgAAANEHCAAd AAsANgAYAAMAWQEBIIADAA4AAADRBwgAHQALADMANQADAHMBAQmAAQAhAAAANkY5NDgwOTkzQ0Qz QzI0N0EwN0ZDNjY3MTk0Q0M2Q0MARAcBA5AGAAQJAAAUAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsAKQAA AAAAAwAuAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQBA/2ajszDBAR4AcAABAAAAJQAAAFJFOiAodXRhaC1hc3Ry b25vbXkpIGxpZ2h0IHBvbGx1dGlvbgAAAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABwTCzo2a9HarmTPtNhqbJvb/n J+oZAAAeAB4MAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAAEgAAAHF1ZXN0b3J0QGhvbWUuY29tAAAA AwAGEPO5bzkDAAcQKwgAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAERJRFlPVVJFQURTT01FT0ZUSEVDT01NRU5UU1BF T1BMRUhBREVOVEVSRURBQk9VVFRIQVRBUlRJQ0xFP0lUSElOS0lUQ0VSVEFJTkxZUFJPVkVTQ0hV Q0tTVklFV09GVEhFQVQAAAAAAgEJEAEAAABqBwAAZgcAAKwNAABMWkZ1jrNMdQMACgByY3BnMTI1 /jIA/wIGAqQD5AXrAoMAUBMDVAIAY2gKwHNldP4yBgAGwwKDDlAD1QcTAoO6MxPNfQqACM8J2TsW v70OMDUCgAqBDnELYG4OELwwMxTgCwoTsgwBYwBAQCBEaWQgeQhgIBUWwGEbwHMDcGUgb7BmIHRo HKAFoG0HgOMCMAQgcGVvC1AcoBKA7xvAHXEEkAmAIAGgCGAFQG0c8GEFQArAdA3gHgA/GCAgSRzh C4BrIGmdBUBjBJABkAuAbHkdsAUDYHYHkUNodWNr+icEIHYIkAfgHMUfcB/AXHR1DnAEIBzBVQGQ aPUAgC4gIFAWwAJAIXEfcPcdAB/BJHFHCfAEkAdAIzdBHLEsICJTbxvTZMUCICcFQGxpaxygHPLn JeAH4CfwZ2gdkCbwHPHnA6AEYCHAISIkcQqFCosRJ/AxODAC0WktMTw0NA6wDNAsAwtZMTbXCqAD YB6QYwVALS4nCofXLNsMMC2mRgNhOi8uLaZPDIIh8QUQBCBSdQQQZfxsbC7PL90GYAIwMQ8yG0JU ClBzZGF5JvBBzHVnM1AFQDI4JvAB0EIwG4A5OjUwJJBN8zO/L91UbzX/MhsfICQwLC1hOKADYG4D cHlApyfwOKAkYHhtBAFpAiCOLh0xOd80znViai3hUzv/MhtSZUJQKD3cKf8otB2wBvAKQB/AAiAq Lysz/DM2LKcU4gwBLaYgQBKw3QWgbhvAIGEjwXALgD9ynyAiJ/AhwChwLcAgZgrB/wNSHuAcYD5A CeAfNRKABCD/HPESsCh5HLADoCDAJvAAcP9J4hygTfUKwCghBJAFEAJg3ynAICInkEtTFlBvIKAC EPxydwsRHOAnMBKAIoAZwP9OUSgjTYELgDigB0AeABvA/wuAKYAhcANRAjAb0AsRSsJ+dCJRB0AE YDihTSEGkCB+TxbATBBNEhxwKYAiIGh/KYEl4CFwIMEnkAeQJ7Jr+z5wB+B3H2JSEVDRA/Ac8M8g sUrDUkEjISBnUVBT0acOcEwwH1NJJ0wQcwhwfyhiIcAFwAUAVaASsE7zaf8FwD8wSdAkYF2gAZAo FQWglz7hHLYoxmMfImF4B5HmYiFwHPJzYRyRYNAIYP8CME63A6AeAEzxHIFYgCXh/wQgM1AcoFi0 HQAhcGDASzH/U/Ff9FIRRYRc9GKhIYIdwH8AIFeRHNMhcFHAVIFSESj/IZAOgFARAaAhYVljBGBG Mk9JgQCABbEoxCkuRnxQ+wSQEoBwVfFVMh/AHJFSEX8pkhywHyEcwVZCXaFGfE93A6A30TjxODhS OQQOIDqgMjY6MzQuEDBH4NEKdlBhdQMgVyDAHpC4IDxxN+FSEAAgQGJi7T+iPligLbI6RnxysFZD /kMgwCFwVpMBkAAgU8NTc/9Sclz0KIJMVE9WSdFrMAqx/x1xIWFbgktiHPICICFhUrTvH3EEACey ayFwIXAe9Fmz+3Onc6dUShImAAOgTmEc8vtUVAqwZxynHQAmAVHyOBEHcyZ8KSjwdHA6Ly/qd4FQ LhKBaxzxfvQ/ooIvH6UucGhwPwCQkGQ9MjMsADImBGK2PRzwHCImBbAEgT0Kdv18KVkb8QDAZvgf cR4APiH/KYAdcWjiHPULUx2RVkMzEf9+UCNRUoFT8RvhBcAfpSkjByi0iiMEIEhPUlJJ2EJMRVCD WiNkBRAhwH8DoGBUTYwfcQMARaJO1mf/C2BP0YpmV4AHkQDAKBBrUu8ngAaQK9BfsGxY4xKwKCTX A2AcQErCJ1pCbFbRkuH/fXIfcRxzHcVYsFIjKCR26/9kQl0DVFhaFCIQUoECYABw/ygQl0oD8EnQ WIAkYnzQYKLvSeOMFBzxT9F3nEISsFwxhyYRHcVL41VWQUFEYLZSDeBXMFQJ8FdyJgXQv4GhG5Bd 4FNRYQJ2FG1FYP+V0lIQUWEc8mvGI0EJ8E70/mN0kgWgYUCi0AMgB4AlUfsZwHeUcx3AotCSQVOR ZvK/BKBcxEwRHwUzETigdQ6Qv5rkeZEfIAUQRaKSEHMWwO5nCxEewVwieZuUY6UbsPuTo0wQajiS kFEbwFCyJ7T/ZBRWQwBwBsAFsByhBcBbgP0bwGJTMiHBihYcc5lRIjB3JQGJEU7CLwWxTDFiYHR/ OIA/kIVPLh90ATDFMqJK+VfwIEJw8AOBc6c1tTef0ziqGeA6MHAAQTnGfLH/O+I9nz6vP7i0kUH3 Q/9FD/9GG3wrmXEpESIDUICxoLOwf3HBJvCzgb5fwa+xgXOnIP5WBAAgwRzyJBIUMLj2BdD3B5Bg wH5RQpNwCyB/uIDWgnBB8DYxLmV6BuD7VMKCcmK4krjnw3g70LiA/wCAQfAE8q1hS+O4nCbwaSG/ HtEDoFZgC3ADIFIRIgDApmqE0QNwb0C56iLDeO1ZYyLKaricIpdlYEAEcP95kRzUB4HF0rB/CoUu tsQP/8UfxivHH8gvyTvKL8s/zE//zV/Ob8+f0K/Rv9LPR08ayBctpgqFFeEA57AAAAMAEBAAAAAA AwAREAEAAABAAAcwABuaSbMwwQFAAAgwABuaSbMwwQEeAD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAAMADTT9 NwAAMRk= - ------ =_NextPart_000_01C13081.5E655C20-- - - Visit the Utah Astronomy Message Board: http://pub61.ezboard.com/butahastronomy To unsubscribe from utah-astronomy, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe utah-astronomy" in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:25:48 -0600 (MDT) From: "Chris Russell" Subject: RE: (utah-astronomy) light pollution On the other hand, there were many comments on the site that were encouraging. You know, I can't really blame those who are upset at those that don't like the lights. Sometimes in our society it seems that there is a group against anything anyone tries to do. Someone ought to just form a "Coalition Against Everything" group and merge all the various groups together. Right now, to them, those of us against these ghastly lights probably look like just another "Coalition Against Anything" group. One of our challenges is to convince them otherwise, that our views have merits beyond just a whim. I know there have been many that have tried. It seems, according to the comments posted on this list over the last day or so, that there have been some successes. Unfortunately for now, Orem has been an abysmal failure and an example of what should be prevented from happening elsewhere. > Did you read some of the comments people had entered about that > article? I think it certainly proves Chuck's view of the attitudes of > Utahns. Pretty pathetic. General attitude of, "So you don't like the > new lights, then move!". > > ---------- > From: Chris Russell > Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 9:50 PM > To: utah-astronomy@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: (utah-astronomy) light pollution > > I second this opinion. I live not far from a street that has these new > lights on it, and the lights are terrible! I do not look forward to > having one these installed in my front yard. It's almost as if Orem > has so much money it doesn't know what to do with it. I have a good > idea that I'm sure never crossed their minds...take the costs of the > lights, cut taxes by the same amount, and then let homeowners use what > they save in taxes to light their own property if they want to > (preferrably with motion sensor lights). > > Perhaps it's time to move out of Orem... > > On Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:26:34 -0600 > Paul Witte wrote: > >> Orem City has started installing their new streetlights and apparently >> I'm not the only one that isn't happy about it. >> >> This ran on the front page of the herald today: >> >> http://www.harktheherald.com/article.php?sid=23142&mode=thread&order=0 >> >> You may want to at least mention the complaints Orem is getting in >> your article, the lighting is HORRIBLE! I have driven by these new >> lights at night and the glare in your eyes makes it difficult to see >> the road. I've also seen that some people who have the streetlights >> in their front yard have hung blankets in their windows. The sad >> thing is there were several people from UVAA (Rich Tenney & Mark >> Dakins among them) who took the time to attend the city council >> meetings and specifically warned them about this stuff. They outright >> disregarded everything they said. I'm just glad I don't live in Orem >> anymore or I'd be investing in some black paint and/or a shotgun. >> >> ---------- >> From: Joe Bauman >> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 10:04 AM >> To: utah-astronomy@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: Re: (utah-astronomy) light pollution >> >> Thanks, Chuck! -- Best, Joe >> >> >> >> - >> Visit the Utah Astronomy Message Board: >> http://pub61.ezboard.com/butahastronomy >> To unsubscribe from utah-astronomy, send an email to >> "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe utah-astronomy" in the >> body of the message. >> > > - > Visit the Utah Astronomy Message Board: > http://pub61.ezboard.com/butahastronomy > To unsubscribe from utah-astronomy, send an email to > "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe utah-astronomy" in the body > of the message. - - Visit the Utah Astronomy Message Board: http://pub61.ezboard.com/butahastronomy To unsubscribe from utah-astronomy, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe utah-astronomy" in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of utah-astronomy-digest V1 #51 *********************************** - To unsubscribe to $LIST, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe $LIST" in the body of the message. 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