From: Scott Bergeson Subject: The female advantage in a force-free society Date: 02 Jul 2002 09:27:07 -0600 The female advantage in a force-free society ---------- Free State Project by Steve Cobb "In a society where the use of force is limited to self defense, and individuals have the right to arm themselves to deal with aggressors better endowed by nature, men's comparative advantage in using violent strategies will be nullified." (06/02) http://www.free-market.net/rd/460360573.html - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Bergeson Subject: Study: Guns No Safer When Locked Up Date: 08 Jul 2002 08:25:49 -0600 On Sun, 7 Jul 2002 19:30:53 -0600 Janalee Tobias provided to wagc-ut@yahoogroups.com : ********************** Study: Guns No Safer When Locked Up Saturday, July 06, 2002 By Dan Springer http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,57051,00.html SEATTLE - Trigger locks and gun safes don't reduce the number of gun accidents, and they actually put gun owners and their families in greater danger, a new report says. "What happens is it makes them more vulnerable to crime," said John R. Lott, Jr., a University of Chicago Law School professor who has published the study Safe-Storage Gun Laws: Accidental Deaths, Suicide and Crime. "Criminals become more emboldened to attack people in their home." Lott cited a Merced, Calif. family whose guns were put away because of the state's safe storage law. John Carpenter, who lost two children in an attack in 2000, said a gun would have stopped the man who broke into his home with a pitchfork. "If a gun had been here, today I'd have at least a daughter alive," Carpenter said. For several years, gun control advocates have been quoting a study that reached a very different conclusion. University of Washington doctors claimed that in a dozen states which had safe storage laws, 39 children's lives were saved. But the study has been widely discredited because the researchers never factored in that accidental gun deaths have been falling everywhere for decades. Nevertheless, 18 states have passed safe storage laws. Lobbyists who fight for the legislation call Lott's research nonsense. "He's argued after the tragedy at Jonesboro, Ark., the school shooting, that if the teachers had been armed, they could have prevented the shooting. This is an extremist, someone who believes that everyone in society should be armed at all times," said Matt Bennett, a spokesman for Americans for Gun Safety Foundation. But Lott counters that the number of gun accidents among law-abiding citizens is remarkably low given that about 90 million Americans own firearms. Far more children die each year from drowning and poisons. And when tragedy does strike, Lott said, it usually happens in a home where there is a criminal history. "You're having these law abiding households lock up these guns where the risks of accidental gun deaths is essentially zero," he said. Still, gun locks enjoy wide support. President Bush has said that if Congress passed a bill requiring them, he would sign it. But this latest study provides opponents with a new weapon in their arsenal. To subscribe, send a blank message to: mailto:wagc-ut-subscribe@yahoogroups.com . The WAGC homepage is at http://www.wagc.com . - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charles C Hardy Subject: Fw: Arizona again recognizes Utah Date: 11 Jul 2002 11:00:58 -0600 This is of interest to Utah CCW holders who visit Arizona or Arizona CCW holders who visit Utah. Please note, under Utah law, ANY and all CCW permits from other US jurisdictions are recognized--no need for a reciprocity agreement. However, with or without an agreement, Utah only recognizes out of State CCW permits for 60 consecutive days. I don't know exactly how that would be enforced--since we don't have passports at the Utah border--other than self-incrimination or 24-7 survellience of a subject. But in any event, be aware of that limitation. The following info is basically taken from the AZ DPS web site at http://www.dps.state.az.us/ccw/recip.htm Charles ----- Forwarded Message ----- Friends, For your information. Arizona once again recognizes Utah's permit. I should add this was NOT Arizona's decision the first place to deny alter the agreement. It was done at the behest of Utah BCI. [Charles' comment: Looks like our legislators need to remind BCI that their job is to facilitate CCW, not hinder it.] The State of Arizona recognizes permits to carry concealed from the following states: Alaska, Arkansas, Kentucky, Utah, Texas These states have an active CCW reciprocal agreement on file with the State of Arizona. This means your Arizona permit allows you to carry concealed under their respective state statute, and Arizona will reciprocate by recognizing CCW permits issued by these states. Utah Reciprocal Agreement Reinstated ARIZONA DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY POST OFFICE BOX 6638 PHOENIX, AZ 85005-6638 July 2, 2002 Arizona CCW permit holders will now be allowed to carry concealed in the state of Utah for a period of 60 days. If a person with an out-of-state permit remains in Utah for longer than 60 consecutive days, that person is required to obtain a Utah permit. Utah permit holders are allowed to carry concealed in the State of Arizona. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charles C Hardy Subject: Fw: A.G. of Utah Needs Help! Date: 11 Jul 2002 11:29:04 -0600 All, The following is forwarded from Women Against Gun Control founder, Janalee Tobias. If you have a first-hand, armed, self-defense story, and would be willing to share it to help our AG win his lawsuit against the UofU, please contact Janalee via email. Incidents on or around a college campus would be particularly helpful, but any location is fine. You're also free to send the information to me at utbagpiper@juno.com and I'll make sure it gets to the AG. Charles Hardy ----- Forwarded Message ----- Greetings! The University of Utah is suing the A.G. of Utah and the State of Utah for the right to ban guns on university and college campuses in Utah even though state allows CCW holders to carry guns without restriction except in places where there are secure facilities and even though the A.G.'s office has overturned Utah Governor Leavitt's ban on public employees and public institutions from carrying guns. To aid in this lawsuit, Mark Shurtleff, Utah's A.G., has asked Women Against Gun Control to ask people who have used a gun to defend themselves and who would be willing to sign an affidavit testifying to this to contact Women Against Gun Control. Someone from the Utah A.G.'s office will contact you if you will provide WAGC with contact information. Stories about guns being used for self-defense on campus and/or parking lots and/or college housing surrounding college and/or university campuses would be especially valuable but not necessary. Please send your name, address, e-mail address, and telephone numbers ASAP to: Nancy Herrington, WAGC EVP sw357mag@mindspring.com or Janalee Tobias, President and Founder, WAGC gunflower@earthlink.net or info@wagc.com WAGC will only provide this information to the Utah A.G.'s office. The deadline for the A.G.'s office to submit these affidavits is the first of August. Please send contact information ASAP. Best regards, Janalee Tobias, President Women Against Gun Control "Guns Give Women a Fighting Chance" "The 2nd Amendment IS the Equal Rights Amendment" www.wagc.com P.S. The people who are instigating the lawsuit against the A.G.'s office and the State of Utah are the same people who walked out on a panel discussion with Janalee Tobias and who also said that "CCW holders should be shot." ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Weapons ban results in unnecessary deaths Date: 14 Jul 2002 18:51:46 -0600 (MDT) This news story is dated April 20th BOSTON -- National guard units seeking to confiscate a cache of recently banned assault rifles were ambushed on April 19th by elements of a paramilitary extremist faction. Military and law enforcement officials estimate that 72 were killed and more than 200 injured before government forces were compelled to withdraw. Speaking after the clash, Massachusetts Governor Thomas Gage declared that the extremist faction, which was made up of local citizens, has links to the radical right-wing tax protest movement. Gage blamed the extremists for recent incidents of vandalism directed against internal revenue offices. The governor, who described the group's organizers as "criminals," issued an executive order authorizing the summary arrest of any individual who has interfered with the government's efforts to secure law and order. The military raid on the extremist arsenal followed widespread refusal by the local citizenry to turn over recently outlawed assault weapons. Gage issued a ban on military-style assault weapons and ammunition earlier in the week. This decision followed a meeting earlier this month between government and military leaders at which the governor authorized the forcible confiscation of illegal arms. One government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, pointed out that "none of these people would have been killed had the extremists obeyed the law and turned over their weapons voluntarily." Government troops initially succeeded in confiscating a large supply of outlawed weapons and ammunition. However, troops attempting to seize arms and ammunition in Lexington met with resistance from heavily-armed extremists who had been tipped-off regarding the government's plan. During a tense standoff in Lexington's town park, National Guard Colonel Francis Smith, commander of the government operation, ordered the armed group to surrender and return to their homes. The impasse was broken by a single shot, which was reportedly fired by one of the right-wing extremists. Eight civilians were killed in the ensuing exchange. Ironically, the local citizenry blamed government forces rather than the extremists for the civilian deaths. Before order could be restored, armed citizens from surrounding areas had descended upon the guard units. Colonel Smith, finding his forces overmatched by the armed mob, ordered a retreat. Governor Gage has called upon citizens to support the state/national joint task force in its effort to restore law and order. The governor has also demanded the surrender of those responsible for planning and leading the attack against the government forces. Samuel Adams, Paul Revere, and John Hancock, who have been identified as "ringleaders" of the extremist faction, remain at large. Yes, it was on April 20, 1775. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charles C Hardy Subject: Fw: FW: Mass House votes to loosen gun laws Date: 15 Jul 2002 13:31:15 -0600 Not of direct concern to Utahns, but an interesting twist that may be of interest. Ironic that as Utah's Demos and other anti-gunners continue to push for expansion of the prohibited person list, the liberals in the PR of Mass. are actually giving serious consideration to restoring rights to those who really don't pose any threat. The final paragraph sums it up well. Charles --------- Forwarded message ---------- http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/192/metro/House_votes_to_loosen_gun_law s+.shtml House votes to loosen gun laws Mass. bill would let felons buy, carry arms By Chris Tangney, Globe Correspondent, 7/11/2002 The state House yesterday overwhelmingly approved a bill that would weaken landmark gun control laws passed in 1998, voting for legislation that would allow convicted felons to legally obtain and carry a gun in Massachusetts. Backed by House Speaker Thomas M. Finneran's leadership team, the bill passed 114-32 despite outraged gun control advocates and legislators who denounced the House for loosening gun restrictions while violent crime is on the rise. "The Legislature should be looking to get illegal firearms off the street, not re-arm violent criminals", said Jerry Belair, spokesman for Stop Handgun Violence, an antigun advocacy group. State Representative Timothy J. Toomey, lead sponsor of the bill, argued that the current prohibition penalizes law-abiding citizens for minor offenses committed when they were young - someone who wants to join a police force, for example, and can't because of a schoolyard fight. "There are too many people who were convicted of a simple assault or battery", said Toomey, a Cambridge Democrat who voted in 1998 for gun control reforms. "It could have happened 20 or 30 years ago. They have since served their country and are good citizens." ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charles C Hardy Subject: Pro-Armed-Pilots editorial in today's SLTrib Date: 18 Jul 2002 12:48:44 -0600 Don't know what they've put in the water over at the Trib, but they finally got one right with regard to firearms. It is interesting to note that while the Bush administration's transportation head opposes arming pilots due to the belief that "pilots should focus on flying the plane," he is not opposed to letting them carry non-lethal weapons. Now which is going to present a bigger distraction for a longer period of time: Putting 6 or 7 bullets into the head and torso of a hijacker who has just breached the cockpit door, or holding a stun gun against the same hijacker's rib cage waiting fo rhim to go down, or even sparying the bad guy with pepper spray and waiting for him to go and stay down? Charles http://www.sltrib.com/07182002/opinion/opinion.htm Arm Pilots As the last line of defense against hijackers, airline pilots who have been trained and deputized by the federal government should be allowed to carry firearms in the cockpit. The House of Representatives passed such a bill last week, and the Senate should follow suit. The Bush administration, through the Transportation Security Administration, opposes the House bill. The TSA argues that heightened screening of passengers, reinforced cockpit doors and plainclothes federal air marshals on guard in airliner cabins are better and presumably safer means to thwart hijackings. The TSA also argues that pilots should not be distracted by security duties and should focus only on flying the aircraft. But the men and women who fly the planes overwhelmingly favor arming pilots who volunteer to be trained for the task. They reason correctly that hijackers with weapons could slip through security, and that despite the presence of air marshals, pilots should be armed to defend the cockpit of an aircraft in a last-ditch attempt to prevent hijackers from taking control. Commercial airliners carry two pilots. While one flies the plane, the other could try to stop an intruder. Under the House bill, deputized pilots with firearms would not be required or even allowed to use guns outside the cockpit itself. They would not be allowed to leave the controls to use a firearm to deal with a disturbance in the cabin. Their only role would be to defend the cockpit. It is legitimate to worry whether a hijacker could overpower a pilot and take his firearm or whether gunfire could injure or kill a pilot or passenger or could damage the aircraft. But those risks already exist with armed air marshals. While it is true that pilots would not have the depth of training or combat experience of a marshal, many pilots are military veterans, and their use of firearms in the cockpit presumably would only occur when the efforts of the marshal, if one were present, and the rest of the crew to protect the cockpit had failed. As a last line of defense, training and arming pilots is a justifiable risk. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charles C Hardy Subject: FW-- PSA : Intro gun training class Date: 22 Jul 2002 11:36:25 -0600 I'm passing the following along for any who may be interested. This looks like a very introductory class on basic firearms safety and how to go about deciding on the proper firearm to purchase for self defense. The class is scheduled at 6:00 pm, this Wednesday, July 24. Planned length is about 2 hours. It is at about 4900 S and 300 W. in the Salt Lake Valley. PLEASE NOTE THAT DUE TO LIMITED SPACE, ALL PARTICIPANTS NEED TO PRE-REGISTER BY CALLING FRANCIS TULLY AT 259-7112. Charles --------- Forwarded message ---------- For more info: Francis Tully 259-7112 Gary Travis 569-2084 DATE: July 24, 2002 - Wednesday Introduction to Firearm safety and purchasing a handgun A Free firearm safety seminar will be held Wednesday, July 24, 2002. The seminar was designed to help those who have considered a gun for personal protection, but feel intimidated or overwhelmed about the subject due to their lack of basic firearm and firearm safety knowledge. The seminar is for the complete novice who needs a basic introduction to firearms, gun safety, and purchasing a firearm for personal safety. The seminar will give hands-on training, explanation of different types of firearms and ammunition. Participants will receive: 1. An opportunity to see and handle a variety of firearms and ammunition. 2. Basic safety instruction. 3. Basic legal information regarding concealed carry. 4. Information on what to look for when selecting a firearm. 5. An opportunity to fire different types of firearms on a pistol range. Attendants must pre-register by calling Armed Response Institute at 569-2084 or calling Fran Tully at 259-7112. Additional information: Participants are not to bring any firearms to the seminar. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DarvellHunt@webtv.net (Darvell Hunt) Subject: My Daily Herlad letter to the editor Date: 23 Jul 2002 11:08:59 -0600 (MDT) The Daily Herald (Provo, Utah) published my letter to the editor today (July 23) about the illegal gun ban of the University of Utah. I wrote the letter in response to a letter to the editor commending Utah university presidents who support a gun ban on their campuses. See this other letter by Amy Hart at: http://www.harktheherald.com/article.php?sid=54084 My response letter from today can be found at: http://www.harktheherald.com/article.php?sid=54653 I just wanted to point this out so you wouldn't miss it. Darvell Hunt Saratoga Springs, Utah - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Sagers" Subject: Re: My Daily Herlad letter to the editor Date: 23 Jul 2002 12:30:56 -0600 Excellent response. Thanks! >>> Darvell Hunt 07/23/02 11:08AM >>> =20 The Daily Herald (Provo, Utah) published my letter to the editor today (July 23) about the illegal gun ban of the University of Utah. I wrote the letter in response to a letter to the editor commending Utah university presidents who support a gun ban on their campuses. See this other letter by Amy Hart at: http://www.harktheherald.com/article.php?sid=3D54084=20 My response letter from today can be found at: http://www.harktheherald.com/article.php?sid=3D54653=20 I just wanted to point this out so you wouldn't miss it. Darvell Hunt Saratoga Springs, Utah - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Bergeson Subject: Rights and Revolution Date: 24 Jul 2002 15:05:34 -0600 On the moral use of violence in revolution and why government ought to conform its behavior to what gets taught in civics classes, Clayton Cramer's fantastic article in Shotgun News. http://www.claytoncramer.com/RightsAndRevolution.PDF You'll need Acrobat, alas. Scott Bergeson - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Military Homilies Date: 24 Jul 2002 18:53:34 -0600 (MDT) --- This item was forwarded by a retired USAF major who says, "These have merit."... --rc --- "Sometimes I think war is God's way of teaching us geography." --Paul Rodriguez "A slipping gear could let your M203 grenade launcher fire when you least expect it. That would make you quite unpopular with what's left of your unit" -- Army's magazine of preventive maintenance. "Aim towards the Enemy" -- Instruction printed on US rocket launcher When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend. Cluster bombing from B-52s is very, very accurate. The bombs always hit the ground. If the enemy is in range, so are you. It is generally inadvisable to eject directly over the area you just bombed. Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons. Try to look unimportant; they may be low on ammo. Tracers work both ways. Five second fuses only last three seconds. Don't ever be the first, don't ever be the last, and don't ever volunteer to do anything. Bravery is being the only one who knows you're afraid. If your attack is going too well, you may have walked into an ambush. No combat ready unit has ever passed inspection. Any ship can be a minesweeper . . . once. Never tell the Platoon Sergeant you have nothing to do. Don't draw fire; it irritates the people around you. Mines are equal opportunity weapons. If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly. -- Randy Cassingham, author of THIS is TRUE * http://www.thisistrue.com and Publisher of HeroicStories * http://www.HeroicStories.com FIGHT SPAM! See http://www.SpamPrimer.com or email Info@SpamPrimer.com ============================================================ Forwarding these messages is fine -- keeping the next line is appreciated: To SUBSCRIBE to this list, e-mail RandysRandom-subscribe@topica.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charles C Hardy Subject: http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,405019944,00.html Date: 25 Jul 2002 12:15:22 -0600 I haven't read the particulars, and the devil is always in the details. But this report makes this bill look like a worthy effort--though simply allowing such firearms to be kept sans registration would be far better. Charles From today's DesNews: http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,405019944,00.html Cannon offers bill on 'war-trophy' guns WASHINGTON — Rep. Chris Cannon worries that veterans who brought home war-trophy machine guns but never registered them could face prison and fines. So he and Rep. Jim Gibbons, R-Nev., introduced a bill Tuesday that could give them time to legally register and keep the guns. "When veterans returned home from fighting overseas, they were concerned about reuniting with family and finishing school, not registering their firearms," Cannon, R-Utah, said. "Now the machine guns they brought back are illegal and cannot be registered, and veterans or their family members are required to surrender them to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for destruction," Cannon said. "In many cases these war relic firearms are worth thousands of dollars. But in all cases they are meaningful souvenirs for our nation's veterans," he said. The bill would give veterans a 90-day period to register such firearms. To qualify, the arms must have been acquired before Oct. 31, 1968, by a member of the armed forces while stationed outside the continental United States. The bill will also allow family members to register firearms inherited from veterans. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Bergeson Subject: FW: First article up Date: 27 Jul 2002 08:39:37 -0600 -------- Original Message -------- The Chief decided to run with the review of "Boston's Gun Bible" I cobbled together. http://www.sierratimes.com/02/07/26/hunter.htm Should any of you be talking to or ordering books from Javelin Press (or bump into BTP), point out the review to them. I've been trying to email the main Javelin Press email address, and their mailbox is full. Had hoped to let him know about it so the massive surge of sales from my promotion of the book wouldn't overwhelm them... --- Hunter's Eighty-Ninth Rule: If you're no damn good, at least be good at it. Ceterum censeo fiscum delendum esse - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charles C Hardy Subject: ID. Sen. Craig with Schumer, Kennedy, McCain on background checks Date: 30 Jul 2002 17:16:06 -0600 This doesn't look like good news to me. Just another step away from actually treating RKBA as a RIGHT rather than a privlege. Charles http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/07/30/gun.checks.ap/index.html Senate bill would strengthen background checks July 30, 2002 Posted: 4:06 PM EDT (2006 GMT) WASHINGTON (AP) -- A self-described "odd-quad" of senators urged the government Tuesday to strengthen its gun buyer instant background check system by requiring federal agencies to contribute to the system and states to computerize their criminal records. The bill, introduced by Democratic Sens. Charles Schumer of New York and Edward Kennedy of Massachusetts, and Republican Sens. John McCain of Arizona and Larry Craig of Idaho, would require states and federal agencies to automate their records and add them to the FBI's National Instant Criminal Background Check System. Background checks for prospective gun buyers have been required since February 1994 under the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act. More than 689,000 people have been denied a gun for failing a background check. But faulty records allowed at least 9,976 prohibited buyers to buy a gun from December 1998 to June 2001, according to a report by Americans for Gun Safety. Schumer, Kennedy, McCain and Craig all have different ideas about gun ownership in America and usually are on different sides in the Senate. But "the background check system is something we all agree on," Schumer said at a joint news conference. "When you see the four of us together, we're not an odd couple, we're an odd-quad," Craig said. "But on this issue we have a very common and very important purpose. We do not believe that those (criminals and the mentally ill) ought to have the right to own a gun." The FBI's system is supposed to identify felons, drug addicts, domestic abusers, illegal immigrants, people who were involuntarily committed to a mental institution and others legally barred from having a gun. It relies on states and other federal agencies to provide criminal, mental health and other records, but many are incomplete or outdated. McCain said officials estimate that there are 30 million records missing from the national database. The legislation authorizes Congress to spend more than $1.1 billion for states and courts to update their records and submit them to the database. It also requires agencies like the Immigration and Naturalization Service and Veterans Affairs to provide their records to it to ensure illegal aliens or the mentally ill don't get weapons. "In a nation where you can walk into any store and swipe your credit card and have an instant accounting of financial capability, and we cannot do something similar to determine whether that individual is legal or illegal in the action of purchasing a firearm? Shame on us," Craig said. A similar bill awaits a vote in the House. The senators say there is agreement on both sides to get the legislation done quickly. "I have every expectation that in September we will pass this legislation and it will be signed by the president," McCain said. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Bergeson Subject: The Goose and Gander Amendment Date: 30 Jul 2002 18:56:00 -0600 -------- Original Message -------- Not a bad plan, though I don't think Dave Kopel carries it far enough. Why restrict the idea to just firearms law? http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel073002.asp --- Hunter's Hundred Seventy-Fourth Rule: A wise man watches his allies at least as closely as his enemies. Ceterum censeo fiscum delendum esse =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- http://www.LibertyRoundTable.org/ =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >LIBERTY ROUND TABLE DISCUSSIONS LIST v2.13 http://www.vader.com/lrtdiscuss/ >TO POST TO THE LIST: send mail to lrt-discuss@vader.com >TO UN/SUBSCRIBE TO LIST: send blank mail with command as subject -