From: Sarah Thompson Subject: NRA Dirt: Fork in the road. Date: 04 Mar 1997 17:21:46 -0700 >Return-Path: root@shell.aros.net >From: 6mysmesa@1eagle1.com >X-Authentication-Warning: 1eagle1.com: Host www.1eagle1.com [192.41.82.252] claimed to be mithoff.1eagle1.com >X-Sender: 6mesa@mithoff.1eagle1.com. >Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 08:34:17 -0700 >Subject: NRA Dirt: Fork in the road. > >We are at the penultimate fork in the road where the NRA BOD election is >concerned. There are two or more factions in the NRA, some who still >believe, even after all the losses, that we can hang on to our weapons of >self and home defense and sport use. Some of us know those rights are fast >fading and unless we act quickly and decisively, all will be lost. > >Re: The NRA BOD election. There are some questions one might ask oneself >about the NRA vote. > >1. Are we better off as a class now than 10, 8, 6, 0r even 4 years ago? >Yes or no. > >2. Should the NRA be focusing it's entire effort on PRESERVING the 2nd, or >should it be dividing it's precious and scarce resources on victim's rights, >women's issues, crimestrike and other PC "image" issues that eat money and >yield nothing except to make the executive of the NRA feel that it is >"sensitive" to Washington issues. > >3. With the LAW and the Constitution firmly on our side are we winning the >debate? If not, why not? WHY NOT? > >4. Is the Knox "no compromise" faction radical? Do we call that radical now? >Why? > >5. Did Wayne LaPierre cross forbidden lines in his tantrum and expose' to >the media? His Liddy show performance made me nauseous as he displayed his >lack of character. His public comments that Knox would "turn the NRA into >the John Birch Society" and would "cater to the Militias" was as Clinton >administration/Chuckie Schumer tactic as I have ever seen, and I was shocked >and angered when Wayne went public and effeminate in his rage, not unlike a >jilted lover. The fact is, Wayne's management has been poor, and as far as >the fund mismanagement, all wayne can do is try to distract memebership and >the BOD from it as long as possible. > >I'm no apologist for either Wayne or Neal, I know them both, and we have a >tough decision to make, affecting the future of the NRA. Unless a miracle, >generated by hard work and militancy occurs, our futures are pretty much >set, the direction of the gun abolition/confiscation movement as developed >incredible momentum, owing to a LACK of solid, informed, proactive >resistance against the gradualist erosion of the BOR. > >The question of the NRA Election boils down simply to two choices of direction. > >1. We remain on the left-centrist "offend no-one" path of compromise and >ultimate firearms abolition in our lifetimes. > >2. We take a right turn and yield our rights no further while we still have >the law on our side. Let's HAVE the Supremes rule on the 2nd. If they rule >it's a collective right and Big Gov't suggests confiscation, at least we >know where we are and what we have to do. At least we bring it out in the >open. We owe our descendants the effort, or we are not worthy of being >called Americans. > >Take yer pick. Neither is ideal, but here we are after years of one way >failing again and again. So, do we stand up for our rights like free men and >women? Do we remember how? Or do we keep kissing ass hoping we can hang on >to a shotgun, if we're good little citizens? > >Joe Horn >NRA Life > >"It is better to die on one's feet, than to continue living on your knees." > Emiliano Zapata > >"Don't call it gun control, call it what it is: >Gun abolition or gun confiscation." > Joe Horn > > > > > > > > > Sarah Thompson, M.D. PO Box 271231 Salt Lake City, UT 84119 http://www.therighter.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sarah Thompson Subject: fw: William Gray on NRA elections Date: 05 Mar 1997 13:07:50 -0700 >Subject: William Gray on NRA elections > Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 20:11:09 GMT >>> "ONE SIMPLE QUESTION" >>> In voting for the members of Board of Directors, there is really only >>> one issue, one simple question: >>> >>> DO YOU WANT WAYNE LAPIERRE TO BE THE EXECUTIVE VICE-PRESIDENT >>> OF THE NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION? >> >>I'm sorry, but this is simplistic wishful thinking. >> >>But if the question must be put in these terms, I regret that I must answer >>No, I do not want Wayne to continue as EVP. >> >>Joe Olson is a good friend of mine. We are close enough that he lent me >>the dough to buy a M1911 I had longed for for many years; with my final >>payment, I also gave him a bottle of single-cask, single-malt whiskey >>as an interest payment. As a nondrinking Mormon, I buy very few people >>booze of any kind. I bought this for Joe because he has almost single- >>handedly kept me out of prison for several years. >> >>You see, Joe works his butt off for gun owners. Joe is at the Capitol >>in St. Paul virtually every day during the session and is in contact >>with our friends often when the legislature is not in session. More, >>Joe is trusted and respected by our enemies. >> >>Joe does all this and has done all this for several years with no pay >>at all. He has more than once contributed real money of his own to cover >>his expenses (parking, impressive phone bills, printing, etc.). He has >>an unpaid network of unpaid assistants who help him learn of last minute >>schedule changes, evil amendments, waffling supporters, and so on. Without >>the unpaid labor and skill of Joe Olson, Minnesota would be the >>unquestioned star of the HCI show because every second of every session, >>our side has been in a minority. Without Joe Olson, Minnesota would have >>laws I could not obey. >> >>I know Joe and have seen him in action. He is not afraid to spend money >>when it is available and needs to be spent. And he is able to discern >>between essential spending and desirable spending, and disciplined >>enough to restrict spending when it must be restricted. >> >>Unfortunately, on this last point, the finance committee of the Board >>and the paid staff part ways. The staff has shown that they canNOT >>restrict spending to the essential and NRA finances have suffered >>badly as a result. >> >>The problem isn't active mismanagement so much as FAILURE to manage, poor >>internal controls, too much unquestioning dependence on outside vendors, >>repeated and deliberate failure to follow Board policy requiring director- >>officer approval of major expenditures, multimillion dollar "contracts" >>without any paper record until the invoice comes in, and an habitual >>overstating of revenue projections so that every year ends with something >>like last November's "fire sale" of memberships for as little as 16 cents >>on the dollar (thus avoiding another multi-million dollar loss year). >>Because of this, a majority of the Finance Committee and a majority of >>the Board have lost confidence in Wayne's ability to MANAGE the business >>and affairs of the NRA. He is a great spokesman and a great person, >>but he can't run a business. And, it is YOUR MONEY that is pouring out >>through the dike with the Finance Committee's finger trying to stop >>the flow. >> >>It isn't the mission or the message. TODAY everyone, Board and staff, >>agrees on no compromise defense of the Second Amendment. In the past, >>with K-Mart Cassidy, your rights were on sale, with a Blue Light special >>on compromise every day. The Dave Edmundson faction was so fearful of >>confrontation that they were giving our rights away faster than our >>enemies could steal them. >> >>Wayne helped stop that. But Wayne got his job because the members said >>Enough! and elected a Board with an attitude. They worked to replace the >>worst of the staff problems. They worked to revitalize the organization, >>both in its physical plant, image, and membership. Some of that took >>big bucks. Then we had two crucial elections and more big bucks got spent. >> >>We got results, but it came time to restrain spending. It seems that the >>paid staff cannot get that message and cannot show the fiscal restraint >>needed now. The board knows the members are tired of the constant >>tin cup routine from NRA HQ, but the paid staff is ignoring lawful >>orders from their employers, the Board that hired them. >> >>Do you realize that most of the 8 people on the paid staff's hit list >>are ALL the members of the finance committee up for reelection? I can >>assure you that Joe would rather eat lint than have this brawl in our >>lifeboat. But he knows the rules of the game and the paid staff is >>essentially in mutiny. >> >>I've met Wayne and liked him. I've corresponded with Tanya and enjoyed >>it. I've never met Marion Hammer, but her success with CCW in Florida >>is an inspiration. It grieves me to have to oppose them. >> >>But I know Joe and I've worked with him--for free--many long and >>thankless hours. I also know his legal expertise, and I assure you that >>you do not get an enviable reputation as a corporate tax scholar without >>being able to understand when the numbers are saying, Stop Spending. >>I know that Joe spends nearly a month a year, u n p a i d, on NRA Board >>business; do you have any idea how much he could earn as a consultant >>if he sold that amount of time in his area of expertise? (Hint: I >>could live comfortably on the tithing he'd owe if he were LDS!) >> >>So I am forced to trust him and his analysis. Reason leaves me no choice. >> >>I also know Weldon Clark. Weldon lived here for a while while he was >>a board member. He's an engineer; as he put it, he and I both a share >>a practical desire to "get the damned crate out the door," that is, to >>deliver the goods. I know something of the personal sacrifices Weldon >>has made to serve you and me on the board and in the cause. I know that >>he would not be opposing people who have delivered part of the goods >>unless he feared, with good reason, that severe damage would result >>otherwise. >> >>These are not micromanaging Dilbert bosses. And I know from their >>recommendation that the other people on the hit list are also tough, >>no-nonsense gun rights activists of the first water. >> >>I am voting Leroy Pyle's short list of 8, coincidentally the same 8 the >>paid staff want us to fire. I urge you to do the same. The stakes are >>very high and I know how much we need a brawl in our lifeboat. But >>we set a new course into the wind when the Knox coalition rescued the >>NRA a few years ago. It would be foolhardy to turn them out now; they >>are the people who provided the guts and the push that got us where we >>are once again taken seriously. >> >>Those 8 names again are: >> Richard L. Carone Weldon H. Clark, Jr. >> Howard J. Fezell Fred Griisser >> Neal Knox J.O. McFalls, III >> Prof. Joseph Olson Albert C. Ross >> >>Ten other persons who should be elected are: >> Robert G. Baer Irv Benvoin >> Cathy L. Gilronan Bill Miller >> James D. Ramm Michael Slavonic >> Wayne Stump Miles Ugarkovich >> Robert Veavie Phillip Williams >> >>Because the Board is elected by a plurality (those with the most >>votes win), you increase the power of your vote if you vote only for >>these 18 candidates. (The more candidates you vote for, the more >>likely it is that your most highly-favored candidates will not get >>enough votes to win.) >> >> >>Bill >> > >TTYL >-=JB=- > >The Patriots' Page: http://www.c2.org/~patriot > >-=-=-=-=-= > >STICK TO YOUR GUNS! > >THE FIGHT TO PRESERVE THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS >MUST BE BASED ON THE FOLLOWING BASIC FACTS: > >http://www.c2.org/~patriot/yourguns.htm > >-=-=-=-=-=- > > jaybanks@e-tex.com > P.O. BOX 194 > Montalba TX 75853 > > Sarah Thompson, M.D. PO Box 271231 Salt Lake City, UT 84119 http://www.therighter.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sarah Thompson Subject: GOA *Urgent * Federal Alert-- 03/05/97 Date: 05 Mar 1997 13:35:05 -0700 >Rep. Chenoweth to Introduce Full Repeal of Lautenberg Gun Ban > -- Ask your Rep. immediately to cosponsor bill! > > by Gun Owners of America > 8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151 > (703)321-8585, fax: 321-8408, http://www.gunowners.org > > > (Wednesday, March 5) -- Rep. Helen Chenoweth is going to >introduce a full repeal of the Lautenberg gun ban either late >today or sometime tomorrow. As you know, this ban disarms >millions of citizens for having committed minor offenses and >prevents them from owning guns for life. > > Gun Owners of America vigorously opposed the Lautenberg ban >last year as it represents one of the worst gun control laws >passed in decades. After the ban passed, the New York Times >hailed the gun ban as "progress on gun control." And more >recently, the Wall Street Journal has confirmed that the problems >which GOA warned about are now in fact occurring. According to >the December 23, 1996 article in the Wall Street Journal, the gun >ban is now: > > * Disarming many policemen across the country; > > * Disarming men and women for domestic disputes that >occurred even 20 years ago; and is > > * Threatening to disarm any parent who has been convicted >for simply spanking their children. > > While there are other bills to "tweak" the Lautenberg ban, >only Rep. Chenoweth's bill will completely repeal the ban from >the federal code. The Barr compromise (H.R. 26) would only >repeal the retroactive portion of the ban -- thus leaving the ban >in the federal code for the future. The Stupak bill (H.R. 445) >would only exempt the police, thus leaving the common people >under the effect of the gun ban. > > HERE'S WHAT TO DO: > > Call your Representative right away and urge him or her to >become an original cosponsor of Helen Chenoweth's bill. The >deadline for original cosponsorship will be late today or sometime >tomorrow. If your representative is unfamiliar with her proposal, >they can call her office for more information. Call your >Representative at 202-225-3121. Or you can also reach them at >1-800-962-3524 or 1-800-972-3524, but be prepared to let the phone >ring a few times. > > NOTE: Rep. Chenoweth's bill still does not have a number. >Your Representative can get a copy from either her office, or by >calling GOA at 703-321-8585. > >Are you receiving this as a cross-post? You can subscribe to our >E-mail Alert Network directly. Address your request to >crfields@gunowners.org and include in the body of the message either >your state of residence or the word "all". If you subscribe by state, >you will receive every federal alert plus alerts which are specific >to your home state. Requesting "all" means you will receive all >alerts generated whether federal or state in nature. > > > > > > Sarah Thompson, M.D. PO Box 271231 Salt Lake City, UT 84119 http://www.therighter.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: GOA Federal Alert--03/12/97 Date: 12 Mar 1997 23:11:00 -0700 Reps. Cannon, Cook and Hansen are conspicuously absent from the list of cosponsors. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Chenoweth Introduces Full Lautenberg Repeal -- Your work helps deliver 11 Cosponsors! by Gun Owners of America 8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102 Springfield, VA 22151 http://www.gunowners.org (Wednesday, March 12) -- Rep. Helen Chenoweth (R-ID) yesterday introduced a full repeal of the Lautenberg gun ban. Thanks to your help, phones have been ringing off the hook on Capitol Hill, and 11 Representatives have signed on to her bill as original cosponsors. [By contrast, the other leading bill to repeal the Lautenberg gun ban only had one original cosponsor when it was introduced earlier this year. That bill, introduced by Rep. Bob Barr (R-GA), would only repeal the retroactive part of the gun ban, leaving the ban in place for the future. While opposing the retroactive part of the ban, Rep. Barr endorsed the underlying principle behind the Lautenberg gun ban last Thursday (3/6/97) in USA Today, calling it "important and worthwhile legislation."] Rep. Chenoweth's bill (H.R. 1009) repeals the ENTIRE Lautenberg ban. Entitled the "States' Rights and Second and Tenth Amendment Restoration Act of 1997," the bill lays out 17 findings that help advance the pro-gun cause. For instance, the bill states that, * "Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year. Of these self-defense cases, as many as 200,000 are by women defending themselves against sexual assault." * "The Lautenberg Amendment oversteps federal authority, violating states' rights . . . [and] violates all notions of constitutional Due Process and constitutes an ex post facto law." * "The Lautenberg Amendment does not deal with a subject delegated to Congress under Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution of the United States and is therefore unconstitutional under the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution, as interpreted by United States v. Lopez." HERE'S WHAT TO DO: If you're Representative is not listed below, keep on him. Get your friends, neighbors, family, gun clubs, etc. to support the Chenoweth repeal bill. And remember to emphasize that the Chenoweth bill (H.R. 1009) is the only bill to *completely* repeal the Lautenberg gun ban from the federal code. All the other half-baked repeals would still leave the ban in the federal code for the future. WHO HAS COSPONSORED THE CHENOWETH BILL ALREADY? 1. Rep. Tom Coburn (R-OK) 2. Rep. Barbara Cubin (R-WY) 3. Rep. John Doolittle (R-CA) 4. Rep. Jim Gibbons (R-NV) 5. Rep. Virgil Goode (D-VA) 6. Rep. Wally Herger (R-CA) 7. Rep. John Hostettler (R-IN) 8. Rep. Ron Lewis (R-KY) 9. Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX) 10. Rep. Joe Skeen (R-NM) 11. Rep. Don Young (R-AK) Are you receiving this as a cross-post? You can subscribe to our E-mail Alert Network directly. Address your request to crfields@gunowners.org and include in the body of the message either your state of residence or the word "all". If you subscribe by state, you will receive every federal alert plus alerts which are specific to your home state. Requesting "all" means you will receive all alerts generated whether federal or state in nature. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: 2nd Amendment NWO Style Date: 13 Mar 1997 21:13:00 -0700 OPEN CHALLENGE: Can anyone find a lousier public official statement than this? Taken from San Jose Mercury News Letters to the Editor, apparently March 8 or 9 SECOND AMENDMENT APPLIES TO STATES, NOT TO INDIVIDUALS Some people were upset recently when I used the word "myth" to describe what the National Rifle Association refers to as "the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms." One man even wrote this paper (Letters, March 1) saying I should resign my position as a deputy district attorney for Santa Clara County because he claimed I did not believe in the Constitution. Let me assure him that, like all prosecutors in this county, I believe in all of the rights guaranteed in the Constitution, including the Second Amendment. I have also studied that amendment and the cases interpreting it. Frankly, it was generous to use the term "myth" to describe the NRA's contention that the Second Amendment gives an individual a right to own any firearm. It is actually a fraud. The Second Amendment reads "A well regualted militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." There are over 30 cases interpreting the Second Amendment. From the United States Supreme Court on down, they are unanimous that the Second Amendment only guarantees the rights of states to create militias. There has never been a single opinion which agreed with the NRA that the Second Amendment granted an individual right. There is no reason to believe there ever will be. The NRA must realize that its position has no validity, because it does not even bother to raise the issue in court any more, even though it still litigates gun issues constantly. Instead, it prefers to continue to mislead the public about the real meaning of the Second Amendment. Unfortunately, many people have been taken in by the fraud. Don't just take my word for it. Former Supreme Court Chief Justice Warren Burger was referring to their Second Amendment argument when he said "the National Rifle Association has done one of the most amazing jobs of misrepresenting and misleading the public." Former U.S. Attorney Generals Katzenbach, Clark, Richardson, Levi, Bell, and Civiletti wrote, "For more than 200 years, the federal courts have unanimously determined that the Second Amendment concerns only the arming of the people in service to an organized state militia; it does not guarantee immediate access to guns for private purpose. The nantion can no longer afford to let the gun lobby's distortion of the constitution cripple every reasonable attempt to implement an effective national policy toward guns and crime." --Stan Voyles Deputy district attorney, Santa Clara County NOTE: Talk radio caller heard last weekend reported that in applying to own a firearm, he was asked to fill out a form professing no affiliation with any militia or group believing in national sovereignty. (He does not know what would happen if he said he did, but he has heard that it is difficult if not impossible to acquire a firearm if a person claims otherwise.) So, no guns for militia men no guns for non-militia men ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sarah Thompson Subject: GOA Federal Alert-- 03/11/97 Date: 14 Mar 1997 10:09:59 -0700 > BLM Forced to Withdraw Proposed Rule Due to Your Action! > -- But they are trying to salvage what they can > > by Gun Owners of America > 8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151 > (703)321-8585, fax: 321-8408, http://www.gunowners.org > > > (Tuesday, March 11, 1997) -- Your efforts have once again >paid off as Bruce Babbitt, Secretary of the Interior, today >directed the Bureau of Land Management to halt action on a >proposed rule that we alerted you to earlier this year. > > The rule would have seriously infringed on your Second >Amendment rights while you are on public land. The powers of BLM >law enforcement personnel would have been greatly expanded, >especially as they relate to the use of firearms by law-abiding >citizens. > > But while you deserve a resounding "well done", this issue may >be far from dead. > > What follows are excerpts from today's press release by >Secretary Babbitt. > >---- begin quoted text ---- > >Secretary Babbitt Directs BLM to Halt Action, Go Back to the >Drawing Board With Law Enforcement Regulations > > This action does not diminish the legal authority of BLM law > enforcement officers on public lands > >Secretary of the Interior Bruce Babbitt announced today that he has >directed the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) to halt further >actions on a proposal to consolidate law enforcement regulations. > >"My decision to stop further action on this proposal is based on >the confusion and misinformation about how these regulations would >affect BLM's law enforcement responsibilities under existing law, >as demonstrated by the many public comments received," said Babbitt. > >"This action does not diminish the legal authority of BLM law >enforcement officers on public land. But it is very clear that we >have not done a good job of clarifying regulations and communicating >BLM's legal authority under existing federal statutes to protect >health, safety and environmental resources on America's public >lands. > >"I've been contacted personally by Idaho Governor Phil Batt and >several members of Congress, who have expressed the concerns of >many," Babbitt said. > >"We hear the users of the public lands and we will do all we can >to help them understand the legal authority of BLM under existing >federal statutes," said Sylvia Baca, acting director of the Bureau >of Land Management. "BLM will go back to the drawing board, and any >future attempt to improve existing regulations and make them more >understandable by public lands users will include better public >education efforts to explain the BLM law enforcement program." > >---- end quoted text ---- > >As you see, they are in no way acknowledging that the rule itself >was wrong in the first place. Nor do they promise not to expand >the scope of BLM's law enforcement activity-- the above statements >notwithstanding, the proposed rule would have expanded their >authority beyond what they currently wield. > >GOA has placed the text of the rule at: > >http://www.gunowners.org/gtblm1.htm > >so that you can read it for yourself. > > ** ACTION ITEMS ** > > 1. Pat yourself on the back. > 2. Grimace as you do so. > 3. Watch for future alerts. > >Are you receiving this as a cross-post? You can subscribe to our >E-mail Alert Network directly. Address your request to >crfields@gunowners.org and include in the body of the message >either your state of residence or the word "all". If you subscribe >by state, you will receive every federal alert plus alerts which are >specific to your home state. Requesting "all" means you will receive >all alerts generated whether federal or state in nature. > > Sarah Thompson, M.D. The Righter PO Box 1185 Sandy, UT 84091-1185 http://www.therighter.com NOTE NEW ADDRESS!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pengar Enterprises Inc. & Shire.Net LLC" Subject: Weber County Sheriff Date: 14 Mar 1997 12:29:28 -0700 from Neil Sagers ---- Weber County Residents call your county commissioners and urge them to appoint Terry Thompson as Weber County Sheriff. The county commissioners can be reached at 399-8401. Call each commissioner and express your preference. The commissioners are Joe Ritchie, Bruce Anderson, and Glen Burton. Now is your chance to have a pro-Second Amendment sheriff. The former sheriff, Craig Dearden, has accepted the position as head of the Utah Department of Public Safety. The top three candidates for the open position were chosen by Republican party delegates. Now the county commissioners will appoint the new sheriff. Only one of the three candidates, Terry Thompson, has had the courage to stand up for the Second Amendment. Other candidates were silent or quietly anti-gun. Terry has the endorsement of the NRA, USSC, UR&PA, LEAA and others. He has written several pro-gun editorials, most recently in the Deseret News where he pointed out the fallacies of anti-gunner's arguments. He has also written articles for the LEAA journal and testified before congress. He is for citizen rights and disgusted with political correctness. Unfortunately Terry does not have the political buddies of the other candidates and input to county commissioners is important. Second Amendment rights may not be at the top of the agenda for county commissioners, but here are a few other points for talking. Terry has the experience with the Weber County Sheriff. One candidate, Mike King, has not even worked for the Sheriff, Mike has spent the last several years working for Jan Graham in the Utah Attorney General's office. Terry has the energy and the dynamic personality that it will take for the Republican party to win the next election for Sheriff. Other candidates looked nice and spoke well but did not motivate supporters. He supports the conservative values of Weber County and will have broad appeal to voters. Commissioners will have personal interviews with each candidate on March 13 followed by a public forum the week of March 17. A final decision will be made by the last week of March. Neil Sagers Chad Leigh Pengar Enterprises, Inc and Shire.Net chad@pengar.com info@pengar.com info@shire.net Full service WWW services from just space to complete sites. WWW Wholesale including virtual domains. Tango. PHP/FI Email forwarding -- Permanent Email Addresses. POP3 and IMAP Email Accounts. mailto:info@shire.net for any of these. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sarah Thompson Subject: GOA Federal Alert-- 03/12/97 Date: 14 Mar 1997 15:37:31 -0700 >Return-Path: angio@shell.aros.net >Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:32:43 -0500 >From: Craig Fields >Reply-To: Craig Fields >To: crfields@gunowners.org >Subject: GOA Federal Alert-- 03/12/97 > > Chenoweth Introduces Full Lautenberg Repeal > -- Your work helps deliver 11 Cosponsors! > > by Gun Owners of America > 8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102 > Springfield, VA 22151 > http://www.gunowners.org > > > (Wednesday, March 12) -- Rep. Helen Chenoweth (R-ID) >yesterday introduced a full repeal of the Lautenberg gun ban. >Thanks to your help, phones have been ringing off the hook on >Capitol Hill, and 11 Representatives have signed on to her bill >as original cosponsors. > > [By contrast, the other leading bill to repeal the >Lautenberg gun ban only had one original cosponsor when it was >introduced earlier this year. That bill, introduced by Rep. >Bob Barr (R-GA), would only repeal the retroactive part of the >gun ban, leaving the ban in place for the future. While >opposing the retroactive part of the ban, Rep. Barr endorsed >the underlying principle behind the Lautenberg gun ban last >Thursday (3/6/97) in USA Today, calling it "important and >worthwhile legislation."] > > Rep. Chenoweth's bill (H.R. 1009) repeals the ENTIRE >Lautenberg ban. Entitled the "States' Rights and Second and >Tenth Amendment Restoration Act of 1997," the bill lays out 17 >findings that help advance the pro-gun cause. For instance, >the bill states that, > > * "Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves >against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year. Of >these self-defense cases, as many as 200,000 are by women >defending themselves against sexual assault." > > * "The Lautenberg Amendment oversteps federal authority, >violating states' rights . . . [and] violates all notions of >constitutional Due Process and constitutes an ex post facto >law." > > * "The Lautenberg Amendment does not deal with a subject >delegated to Congress under Article I, Section 8 of the >Constitution of the United States and is therefore >unconstitutional under the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution, >as interpreted by United States v. Lopez." > > HERE'S WHAT TO DO: > > If you're Representative is not listed below, keep on him. >Get your friends, neighbors, family, gun clubs, etc. to support >the Chenoweth repeal bill. And remember to emphasize that the >Chenoweth bill (H.R. 1009) is the only bill to *completely* >repeal the Lautenberg gun ban from the federal code. All the >other half-baked repeals would still leave the ban in the federal >code for the future. > > WHO HAS COSPONSORED THE CHENOWETH BILL ALREADY? > > 1. Rep. Tom Coburn (R-OK) > 2. Rep. Barbara Cubin (R-WY) > 3. Rep. John Doolittle (R-CA) > 4. Rep. Jim Gibbons (R-NV) > 5. Rep. Virgil Goode (D-VA) > 6. Rep. Wally Herger (R-CA) > 7. Rep. John Hostettler (R-IN) > 8. Rep. Ron Lewis (R-KY) > 9. Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX) > 10. Rep. Joe Skeen (R-NM) > 11. Rep. Don Young (R-AK) > > >Are you receiving this as a cross-post? You can subscribe to our >E-mail Alert Network directly. Address your request to >crfields@gunowners.org and include in the body of the message either >your state of residence or the word "all". If you subscribe by state, >you will receive every federal alert plus alerts which are specific >to your home state. Requesting "all" means you will receive all >alerts generated whether federal or state in nature. > > > > Sarah Thompson, M.D. The Righter PO Box 1185 Sandy, UT 84091-1185 http://www.therighter.com NOTE NEW ADDRESS!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sarah Thompson Subject: R2A! Australia spending $ on guns instead of health care Date: 14 Mar 1997 19:02:53 -0700 >Hmmmm..... Looks like GUN CONTROL may be the REAL public health problem! > >Sarah > >>The Advertiser - Adelaide - Saturday - 8 March 1997 >> >>States warn disaster looms over funding cuts to health >> >>THE STATE MINISTERS are..alarmed by reports that the (Federal) government >>is examining proposals to cut a further $1.3 billion from the health >>budget...The Health Minister, Dr. Woolridge, again refused to rule out >>further cuts. >> >>end of quote. >> >>While the government of Australia is spending 0.5 Billion $ Australian to >>confiscate a few firearms. >> >>While the firearms death rates for Australia have been trending downward >>since at least 1980. See Australian Bureau of Statistics data at: >> >>http://www.abs.gov.au/d3110122/2222.htm > Sarah Thompson, M.D. The Righter PO Box 1185 Sandy, UT 84091-1185 http://www.therighter.com NOTE NEW ADDRESS!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sarah Thompson Subject: R2A! Why don't I ever get asked? Date: 14 Mar 1997 19:34:50 -0700 And Hopkins wonders why I won't send them any money! Sheesh! Sarah >Here we go again....................... > >Copyright =A9 1997 Nando.net >Copyright =A9 1997 Scripps Howard=20 > >(Mar 13, 1997 12:43 p.m. EST) - Most Americans believe handguns ought to=20 >be regulated like automobiles. > >That's a key finding in a new survey by the Johns Hopkins School of=20 >Public Health and the University of Chicago's National Opinion Research >Center. > >The telephone survey of 1,200 Americans throughout the country disclosed=20 >for the first time an overwhelming public demand for handguns to be >treated like other consumer products. The survey showed: > >-- 82 percent favor mandatory registration of handguns. > >-- 70 percent want handgun owners to be trained and licensed. > >-- 86 percent support laws to require all new handguns be childproofed. > >-- 68 percent want new handguns "personalized" so only an authorized user= =20 >could operate the weapons. > >Tom Smith, director of the survey, characterized the public's position as= =20 >"the automobile model." > >"People want to expand the current patchwork system of regulation into a=20 >more comprehensive system of regulation analogous to what now >exists for automobiles," he said. > >"We register cars and require that people have a license to drive.=20 >Similarly, we could register guns and license gun owners." > >Almost all Americans, according to the survey, would tighten restrictions= =20 >on gun purchases by criminals and even by those convicted of >misdemeanors such as shoplifting and driving under the influence of=20 >alcohol. > >Specifically, 95 percent would prohibit handgun purchases by people=20 >convicted of displaying a firearm in a threatening manner -- and 61=20 >percent >would deny guns to people convicted of indecent exposure. > >By big majorities the public also wants stricter laws on gun sales. Seven= =20 >out of 10 believe sales should be limited to stores rather than >individuals, who currently are allowed to sell at shows or privately.=20 >Eight out of ten want sales limited to one gun per person per month. > >There are 38,000 gun-related deaths a year in the United States -- more=20 >than 100 deaths every day. An additional 17,000 are treated for >accidental, nonfatal gunshot wounds, which costs the public $4 billion=20 >annually for medical care. > >Gun homicide is the leading cause of death for black males aged 15 to 24.= =20 >And, the survey disclosed, 20 percent of all Americans have been >threatened with a gun. > > >--=20 > John Hurd =20 > =20 > The sound of gunfire on a shooting range is =20 > someone actively involved in gun control..... > NRA Endowment HKE4739F USPSA FY4161 IROI > > >---------------------------------- >To unsubscribe send a message to majordomo@pobox.com >with the following line in the body: > >unsubscribe right2arms > >***Visit http://www.wizard.net/~kc/firearms.html >to learn more about guns in America*** > >RIGHT2ARMS IS A PRIVATE UNMODERATED LIST. THE OWNER >TAKES NO RESPONSIBILTY FOR CONTENT. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. > > Sarah Thompson, M.D. The Righter PO Box 1185 Sandy, UT 84091-1185 http://www.therighter.com NOTE NEW ADDRESS!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sarah Thompson Subject: R2A! FYI Date: 15 Mar 1997 12:06:42 -0700 > I received this on another net, I forward it for your consideration. >Some important points are raised, I think, particularly with regard to >media bias. >*********************************************************** >Local reporting on the bank shooting spree here in Michigan has been very >interesting on several levels. None of the local on-scene reports that >I've seen or heard have included the kind of gunfire mentioned in these >posts, although at least some of the shots in question have been audible >on some of them. I suspect five or six is probably closer to the truth >than 200. > >Even more interesting is the fact that the perp, a black male, killed >only whites. He stepped over black people on the floor of the bank to do >it, so it was no accident. What makes this interesting is the fact that >not once has it been mentioned by anybody in the Detroit media. > >They're still wondering "what the killer's motive was" and looking into >his socially deprived background for "reasons why this tragedy happened". > I guess we're all supposed to be too stupid to notice that the faces of >the five victims are all white, and the "traumatized (but otherwise >unharmed) survivors" they're interviewing are all black. > >This was a series of racially based murders committed by a black man who >set out to kill whites -- a racist -- that much is crystal clear. I can >only imagine what would be happening just now had the races of the perp >and the victims been reversed. > >You have, of course, heard by now that the missing bank SECURITY GUARD >has been found huddled behind the furnace in the bank basement, where she >remained for almost 24 hours despite the fact that the police used the >adjacent area for preliminary interviews of the witnesses. She is being >treated by the media like some kind of heroic victim. It's enough to >empty one's stomach. > >Anyway, if there is anybody reading this who still thinks the media >reports the "news" with anything even remotely resembling "journalistic >professionalism" I can assure you that it just ain't so -- a least not in >Deeetroit. This is another triumph of Political Correctness as >administered by the spin doctors of the media. > >BTW, every time we see the replay, Ruthanne and I scream at the TV in >unison -- "HEAD SHOT, HEAD SHOT, HEAD SHOT..." but nobody's listening. >Things would be very different if we ran the zoo. >********************************* > > Curiouser and curiouser.......................... > >Charles Riggs, Gunsite 1991 - DVC! >1st vice-pres. KC3- Kentucky Coalition to Carry Concealed >"Stop Crime- Be Armed- Fight Back!" Sarah Thompson, M.D. The Righter PO Box 1185 Sandy, UT 84091-1185 http://www.therighter.com NOTE NEW ADDRESS!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: R2A! Why don't I ever get asked? Date: 15 Mar 1997 10:10:00 -0700 Sarah Thompson forwards: (BTW I had to turn off quote markers because you already had them on a *CROSSPOST*! Please forward and crosspost without adding them. They are meant to mark quoted text to which you are specifically replying.) >(Mar 13, 1997 12:43 p.m. EST) - Most Americans believe handguns ought to >be regulated like automobiles. >The telephone survey of 1,200 Americans throughout the country disclosed >for the first time an overwhelming public demand for handguns to be >treated like other consumer products. The survey showed: >-- 82 percent favor mandatory registration of handguns. Not required for automobiles unless used for commercial purposes. Of course, the LEOs think any use on a public right-of-way is a commercial use. >-- 70 percent want handgun owners to be trained and licensed. No such requirement for automobile owners, only "drivers". >-- 86 percent support laws to require all new handguns be childproofed. This a new feature on automobiles? >-- 68 percent want new handguns "personalized" so only an authorized user >could operate the weapons. Another new automotive feature? Car thieves cut out the steering lock. Though I'll be glad to sell you a personalized fuel pump lock, AFAIK installation and activation of one is not legally required. >Tom Smith, director of the survey, characterized the public's position as >"the automobile model." Excellent. Show proof you are at least 18 years of age and it's "cash and carry". Registration is only required to "drive" it off the lot. >"We register cars and require that people have a license to drive. >Similarly, we could register guns and license gun owners." LEOs and armed mercenary guards and couriers, i.e., those using firearms as weapons for commercial purposes, should be licensed and bonded. >Almost all Americans, according to the survey, would tighten restrictions >on gun purchases by criminals and even by those convicted of misdemeanors >such as shoplifting and driving under the influence of alcohol. New requirements for purchases of automobiles of which I am unaware? >Specifically, 95 percent would prohibit handgun purchases by people >convicted of displaying a firearm in a threatening manner -- and 61 >percent would deny guns to people convicted of indecent exposure. Ban car ownership by people who "drive" recklessly or rudely or commit lewd or indecent acts in them? >By big majorities the public also wants stricter laws on gun sales. Seven >out of 10 believe sales should be limited to stores rather than >individuals, who currently are allowed to sell at shows or privately. >Eight out of ten want sales limited to one gun per person per month. Cars can only be legally purchased from licensed dealers? Guess that makes me a criminal for selling a car directly to my brother without cutting a licensed dealer in for his 100% commission. >Gun homicide is the leading cause of death for black males aged 15 to 24. >And, the survey disclosed, 20 percent of all Americans have been >threatened with a gun. Bet nearly 100% have been threatened with a car. Deaths from injuries from cars also far outnumber those from guns or projectiles they have fired. CC to kaylin@inconnect.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sarah Thompson Subject: crosspost from rec.guns Date: 15 Mar 1997 12:49:06 -0700 >Return-Path: angio@shell.aros.net >From: 6mysmesa@1eagle1.com >X-Sender: 6mesa@mithoff.1eagle1.com. >Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:26:06 -0700 >Subject: crosspost from rec.guns > > >> From the Illinois State Rifle Association: >> Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 17:36:09 -0600 (CST) >> To: bigcheese@dstar.com >> From: tskuse@midwest.net (Tom Skuse) >> Subject: Regulatory Warning >> >>ISRA President Jim Valentino asks that the following be forwarded >>to your club or range: >> >> >>* * * * * * * * ISRA Regulatory Alert No. 97002 * * * * * * * * >> >> >>ATTENTION: Gun Clubs & Ranges >> >>The NRA Range Department has issued a warning that a Mr. Bruce Ryan of >>"Lead Research" is notifying gun clubs and ranges that one of his >>representatives will be visiting their facilities to investigate for >>lead contamination. >> >> >> >> This individual CAN NOT legally demand admittance to your range and >> facilities. He is NOT affiliated or associated with any federal or >>state agency, nor obtained legal process (warrants) warns the NRA. >> >> >> >>The environmental information which he states is not to be believed, >>states NRA and asks clubs and ranges to DENY HIM ACCESS. Clubs and >>ranges should contact their attorneys and the NRA IMMEDIATELY after >>being contacted by Mr. Ryan or "Lead Research". >> >>NRA believes that this organization is trying to get information to >>bring suits for damages or injunctions against clubs and ranges. >> >> >>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> >>Tom Skuse >>Committee of Correspondence >>I S R A >> >> >> >>RA-16\A0\30-02 >> >> >>Tom Skuse in Canton, IL >>@midwest.net > > Sarah Thompson, M.D. The Righter PO Box 1185 Sandy, UT 84091-1185 http://www.therighter.com NOTE NEW ADDRESS!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sarah Thompson Subject: Re: Weber County Sheriff Date: 15 Mar 1997 13:04:58 -0700 At 12:29 PM 3/14/97 -0700, Pengar Enterprises Inc. & Shire.Net LLC wrote: >from Neil Sagers >---- >Weber County Residents call your county commissioners and urge >them to appoint Terry Thompson as Weber County Sheriff. > >The county commissioners can be reached at 399-8401. Call each >commissioner and express your preference. The commissioners are >Joe Ritchie, Bruce Anderson, and Glen Burton. > >Now is your chance to have a pro-Second Amendment sheriff. The >former sheriff, Craig Dearden, has accepted the position as head of >the Utah Department of Public Safety. The top three candidates for >the open position were chosen by Republican party delegates. Now >the county commissioners will appoint the new sheriff. Does this mean that Craig Dearden, the new head of DPS is ANTI-GUN? This is of particular concern, since I believe the legislature just gave the head of DPS COMPLETE CONTROL over the CCW process by allowing him, rather than the governor, to appoint ALL members of the commission. If this is the case, is there any room in the scenario for (gasp!) citizen input? Thanks! Sarah Sarah Thompson, M.D. The Righter PO Box 1185 Sandy, UT 84091-1185 http://www.therighter.com NOTE NEW ADDRESS!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sarah Thompson Subject: Heads Up Date: 15 Mar 1997 20:37:33 -0700 > Heads Up > > A Weekly edition of News from around our country > > March 14, 1997 #26 > > by: Doug Fiedor fiedor19@eos.net > >---------------------------------------------------------- > Previous Editions at: http://mmc.cns.net/headsup.html >---------------------------------------------------------- > > >A PARADOX IN THE LAW > Those of us who were paying attention >might have learned a little about federal law this week. >Because, evidently, the law in the United States has just >been changed considerably. (see Rule of Law in the >Feb. 7 issue of "Heads Up" for the way it once was) > No more need citizens worry about the >laws passed by Congress, Vice President Al Gore implied >to the nation during a televised press conference. >Unless laws are first vetted through the courts, they >have "no controlling legal authority," the VP said. >Ozone Head served sixteen years in Congress and he is now >on his fifth year as vice-president. So . . . he must >know exactly what he is talking about. He's an authority >on law. . . . Well? Isn't he? > Never mind that 18 USC 607 says that "It >shall be unlawful for any person to solicit or receive >any contributions . . . in any room or building occupied >in the discharge of official duties. . . ." And, never >mind that the words "any person," "any contributions" >and "any room or building" are words that are very clear >and easy for all of us to understand. Ozone Head found a >cop-out: "There was no controlling legal authority." > No one asked if this also applies for >executive orders, rules and regulations, but it probably >would. If there is no court decision on the subject, >there is no controlling law! That's this week's simple >legal rule of thumb, freshly invented by the simpleton in >the White House. > The fact is, Gore made at least fifty >fund-raising telephone calls from the White House. And >now we learn, he also made quite a few fund-raising calls >from his Senate office for the campaign five years ago. >So, even if we forget the White House calls, he still >committed a series of federal felony offenses from his >Senate office. > His "no controlling legal authority" >argument is kind of interesting after you think about it >for a while. Because, how do you get a law started that >way? If something is not illegal (no controlling legal >authority), you can't get arrested for doing it. But, >if no one gets arrested, and has it tested in court, how >would there ever get to be "controlling" legal >authority? That's an attractive paradox. > And, unless we see Al "the Ozone Head" >Gore being led off by the FBI in stainless steel >bracelets, apparently his interpretation of the law is >correct (for those in government, anyway). Cause, after >all, he stood up in front of the television cameras and >admitted to the nation what he had done -- and he even >said that he was proud of it. > The Department of Justice certainly should >not need more proof than that! That is, were they >inclined to enforce the law. > >REMOVE BAD JUDGES > Surprise, surprise. Finally, it looks like >Congress is starting to take a good look at activist >judges. It's about time, too! > "The Washington Times" reported Wednesday >that House Majority Whip Tom DeLay is already writing >articles of impeachment against U.S. District Judge Fred >Biery of Del Rio, Texas. Biery, you may remember, is the >judge who postponed indefinitely the swearing in of two >Texas Republicans because members of the military voted >for them. > The local race for county commissioner and >sheriff were won by only 800 votes. Biery ruled it >unfair because many of the military votes cast were >absentee votes. > Also under consideration for impeachment >is U.S. District Judge Thelton Henderson in San Francisco >who blocked voter approved California Proposition 209, >and U.S. District Court Judge Harold Bear, Jr. who tossed >out drug evidence in a New York case because he did not >think police had reason to search the defendant's >car -- he later reversed himself. > Articles of impeachment are filed in the >House (indictment), and require a simple majority vote to >pass. Then they go to the Senate (for trial), where a >two-thirds vote is necessary to convict. To date, only >13 judges have been impeached, and only three since 1986. > With all the crazy decisions lately, it >seems like this action is way overdue. Judges must be >"encouraged" to follow the Constitution, and especially >the Bill of Rights. Any judge deviating from the >Constitution, as written, should be removed from the >bench immediately. > Already, liberal groups are calling the >proposed impeachment action "intimidation." But that's >good, actually. Hopefully, judges will think of it that >way, too. Because, if Congress "intimidates" judges into >obeying the Constitution by impeaching one or two a >year, so much the better for us citizens. > >DOWN WITH THE ESTABLISHMENT > Those of us who were adults back in the >1960's will remember the words "down with the >establishment" from the hippies back then. That's when >a "trip" required acid, "crash" had two distinctly >different meanings and the word "man" included everyone. > Where did all those hippies go, we >sometimes wonder. Obviously, most of them grew up to >become productive adults. That's because about the time >they got married and started having kids, an interesting >revelation popped into their drug-soaked minds: They >needed a dependable source of income to live >comfortably! And, to legally acquire the amount of money >required to feed and house a family requires that they >first get cleaned up and act like part of the >establishment. So, most did. > Not all did, though. Not really. > Many of the anti-establishment hippie-type >college kids managed to stay on campus. They are now >teachers. Yup, these are now the far-left instructors >teaching our children. Yes, they are still far-left >anti-establishment radicals -- most of them have never >had a real job of any sort, nor any type of life outside >of a commune or campus lifestyle. But, they get to mold >the thinking of our youngsters, nonetheless. > Another bunch of anti-establishment types >became environmentalists. You know, they commune with >nature, and all that stuff. . . . Some of them even >weaseled their way into government positions, working for >regulatory agencies. Others are members of militant >environmental organizations, pushing their government >brethren for more anti-establishment rules and >regulations. > No, the anti-establishment crowd did not >disappear. Not all of them, anyway. They just cleaned >themselves up a little and went political. And if you >look closely, they seem to be winning their fight against >the establishment, too. > It seemed a little preposterous back then >when a popular radio personality called them "long hair >hippie-type pinkos." Most of us thought them to be >totally a-political -- drop-outs rather than "pinkos." > We were wrong! > They are today's socialist teachers and >today's socialist regulators. And it shouldn't be a >surprise to anyone that the political ones are still >working against the American establishment by aiding >groups like the UN and UNESCO. > The problem is that what they consider >to be the "establishment" includes our United States >Constitution and most of our American values. > >PROTECTING PROPERTY > We're not very enthused at writing "book >reports" on this end. But there is one recently released >book that really deserves mention. And, we might add, >although we only had time to spend about fifteen minutes >thumbing through it, like many others we immediately >added our name to the list of potential purchasers. > This is essentially a self defense book for >property owners. The book is targeted at both current >and would-be property owners, and outlines dozens of >interesting signs to look for when walking rural land. > A retired biologist (who, understandably, >wishes to remain anonymous) spent a year documenting all >applicable "endangered" plants and animals for five >midwest states. Both diagrams and full color pictures >are included so as to make identification almost easy for >even the untrained eye. > But the book goes far beyond just >identification of endangered (and potentially endangered) >plants and animals. This author also offers concise >information on what to do about the potential problem. > For instance, two chapters include >information on the legal methods used by government >agencies to "restrict" the usage of private property >occupied by endangered species -- and information on how >to fight that action. > But, most interesting to current land >owners is the "proactive" preventive information >included. About one-third of the book includes >instructions concerning everything from transplanting to >total eradication of many protected plants and animals. >In other words, information on how to get it off of your >land, and keep it off of your land, before the regulators >find out it was there. > Now . . . before the environmentalists get >their shorts in a bunch, we should again report that this >book was written by a well experienced biologist. >Therefore, most instructions include information on how >to effectively move the unwanted plant or animal to >suitable public land (or the local regulator's land) -- >presumably, far away from your own property. > The book, we were told, is self-published >and advertised by word of mouth. Even so, the first >5,000 copy printing, we were told, sold out in about two >months. Another 5,000 will be printed in two or three >weeks. > It's a shame, actually, that such a book is >necessary. But, necessary it is. The environmental >wackos in government now have more stupid laws, rules >and regulations regarding endangered species (and "near" >endangered species) than any single person can learn. >And most of these laws, rules and regulations can >adversely affect private land usage. > Many of these regulations make no sense, >either. For instance, at a Kentucky meeting, we were >shown five plants that are proposed to be labeled >"threatened," and "protected," by environmentalists. We >mentioned that, in Michigan, we called those plants >"weeds," and they are very plentiful throughout the >state. We further mentioned that property owners in >Michigan would consider it a good thing if Kentucky >environmentalists came up and removed as many as they >wished. > Obviously, this was not the desired >response. For, the environmentalist ranger continued >right on with his prepared speech on why it is necessary >for government agents to do an environmental "inventory" >on all public and private land in the state. > Ulterior motives, maybe? Of course! > We were asked (told) to not advertise this >book, and we honor that request. Apparently, the books >are sold as fast as they are printed and everyone >involved is comfortable with that situation. We also >chose to not compile information about the author and the >book's distributors. Suffice to say, they all own >property locally. Readers may draw their own conclusions >from that statement. . . . > Yes, this new book will sell well. And it should. It >is an informative and well written text. But it is a >damn shame that such a book is necessary. > >ANARCHY ON HIGH > "Sometimes there is a difference between >what is legal and what ought to be done," America was >informed this week. We should all remember that message, >too. Because, those words came directly from the >nation's chief law enforcement officer, the President of >the United States! > Yup, the nation's chief lawman implied >that "there is a difference between what is legal and >what ought to be done." Those words should resonate >loudly within every patriot hall in the nation! Those >words should be framed in gold for all good citizens to >ponder. Finally, Slick Willie uttered something >bordering on truth. > Of course, he didn't mean it. Well, he didn't mean it >to apply to us American citizens, anyway. That was his >excuse for why (he thinks) he can morally violate >campaign fund-raising laws with impunity. > And, that he did! Most of the campaign laws. > Former White House chief of staff >Leon E. Panetta practically admitted on NBC last Sunday >that the 1996 Clinton reelection committee illegally >spent $35-million to $40-million in Democratic National >Committee "soft money" contributions on campaign >commercials. Yet, federal law prohibits the use of that >money in an election campaign. > "The president was looking at a Republican >Congress trying to implement a contract on America that >would impact on Medicare, on education, go after the >assault weapons ban, and the president was committed to >make sure that that would not happen and that he would be >able to be reelected," was Panetta's excuse. > Yup, and the end justifies the means. >Because, "there is a difference between what is legal and >what ought to be done." The Republicans were coming, was >the administration's rallying cry. Can't have >that . . . so anything goes in order to win! > Al Gore wasn't the only one dialing for >dollars at the White House. Slick admitted doing it, >too. And when Hillary was asked by the press if she >partook in the fund-raising activities from the White >House, she said (six times!): "I do not recall making >any [telephone calls], but I'm not going to say >absolutely never. I just don't recall being asked to >make any. I don't recall making any," she told >reporters. Uh huh. Sure. > In Hillary-speak, that means: Yes, I did >it. So what? Don't bother me with those inane questions! > But both Panetta and Secretary of Defense >William S. Cohen, who also appeared on the NBC show, >said they never solicited campaign contributions from >their Capitol Hill offices when they were in Congress >because they felt "it would have been improper." Yeah. >It could get them some prison time, too! > Attorney General Janet Reno also seemed >to acknowledge the problem. Last week she said that >federal law prohibits solicitation and receipt of >campaign funds on federal property "by any person for the >purpose of influencing any election for federal office." >She just hasn't decided to do anything about it yet. So, >let's do our civic duty and give her a few pertinent >facts: > "It is unlawful for a foreign national to >contribute to any political campaign" (2 USC 441e). Yet, >Al Gore, Ron Brown, Senator Chris Dodd, John Huang, and >quite a few others at the Democratic National Committee >headquarters knowingly and actively solicited funds from >foreign nationals. > Slick Willie intentionally accepted >campaign money from Communist China operatives. His >"plausible denial" scenario of not being informed -- that >the Chinese were laundering money into political >campaigns -- by the FBI and the National Security Council >will soon fail. Believe the FBI on this one, folks. >Clinton knew early on that the Communist Chinese were >involved laundering money into political campaigns, and >he wanted the lion's share of it. But, for him to admit >that is to admit to a serious federal felony. Hence, the >current cover-up and finger pointing in the news. > "Whoever promises any contact or other >benefit as a consideration, favor, or reward for any >political activity may be fined, imprisoned, or both" >(18 USC 600). That would include Bill and Hillary >Clinton, Al Gore, Senator Chris Dodd, and a whole cast of >characters in the Commerce Department and the DNC (most >of Congress, too!). > Slick had to know that John Huang was >probably a mole for the Chinese government. Yet, he >gave Huang a position at the Department of Commerce >anyway. As we all know now, that tactic paid off >handsomely in campaign funds! And one only need read >any current newspaper to learn of all the "coffees" and >other perks offered to major contributors by the Clinton >administration. > "Whoever illegally obtains campaign >contributions, or knowingly accepts campaign >contributions that are laundered in an attempt to conceal >the nature, source, ownership or control of the funds, >may be fined, imprisoned, or both" (18 USC 1956). That >would include Bill and Hillary Clinton, Al Gore, John >Huang, Chris Dodd, the leadership at the DNC, and quite >a few Clinton appointed ambassadors. > Half of the Clinton administration was >involved in the re-election campaign -- and therefore, >procuring campaign funds. It started as soon as they >took office, with Ron Brown and John Huang at Commerce >shaking-down business executives and foreign nationals, >and it ramped up quickly from there. > This administration did whatever it took >to get money. They sold access. They sold influence. >They sold government positions. They sold government >services. And they changed laws and regulations to >benefit major campaign contributors -- including foreign >governments. > Did they break the law? Sure. >Continuously. But, so what? The Republicans were >coming, and the end justified the means. It was >justified for the Clinton, Clinton and Gore team to >violate the law because, "sometimes there is a difference >between what is legal and what ought to be done." > Remember that. There is a difference. >But . . . only if you are an official of the federal >government. > >INTERESTING LEGAL TERMS > Below are a few legal terms that seem to >apply to the current news reports. These are provided >only because they offer interesting insight into what >some lawyers in the Department of Justice may (or should) >be thinking if they read the same news reports we do. > Just for kicks, we picked the oldest law >dictionary on our shelf: "The Cyclopedic Law Dictionary" >by James C. Cahill, dated 1922. This dictionary was >chosen because it was published before American law was >corrupted by the FDR administration. > Conspiracy: "A combination of two or more >persons by some concerted action to accomplish some >criminal or unlawful purpose, or to accomplish some >purpose, not itself criminal or unlawful, by criminal or >unlawful means." > Malfeasance: "The unjust performance >of some act which the party had no right, or which he had >contracted not, to do." > Misfeasance: "The performance of an act >which might lawfully be done, in an improper manner, by >which another person receives an injury." > Nonfeasance: "The neglect or failure of a >person to do some act which he ought to do. The term is >not generally used to denote a breach of contract, but >rather the failure to perform a duty towards the public >whereby some individual sustains special damage, as >where a sheriff fails to execute a writ. > "When a legislative act requires a person >to do a thing, its nonfeasance will subject the party to >punishment; as, if a statute require the supervisors of >the highways to repair such highways, the neglect to >repair them may be punished." > Last but not least comes a term from a >twenty year old political dictionary of obviously liberal >bent. We choose this book because we believe that, when >the subject at hand is the behavior of liberal >politicians, it is probably best to define the terms the >way the liberal politicians understand them. And, this >term was once a real favorite of the socialist >reactionaries among us: > Civil Disobedience: "Refusal to obey a >law, usually on the ground that the law is morally >reprehensible. Recent examples of civil disobedience >include Negro refusals to obey segregation laws and >actions of anti-Vietnam war groups in refusing to honor >draft regulations. Civil disobedience ordinarily takes >the form of nonviolent resistance and is aimed at >arousing public opinion against the law." > >IMPEACHMENT > Just as we completed the text for this >week's issue of "Heads Up" a very important story >popped-up. This is from "The Washington Times," and the >synopsis is included immediately below: > "The chairman of the House Judiciary >Committee has been asked to begin an impeachment inquiry >of President Clinton and Vice President Al Gore amid >accusations that a growing campaign-finance scandal has >compromised national-security interests and corrupted the >country's foreign-policy decisions. Rep. Bob Barr, >Georgia Republican, made the request this week in a three- >page letter to Chairman Henry J. Hyde, challenging fund >raising "on federal property and with federal >resources."" > This is good stuff, forks. The article is well worth >reading -- no, studying -- in its entirety. This is >history in the making, and Jerry Seper of "The Washington >Times" does an excellent job of summarizing the situation >as it exists today. > Friday's "Washington Times" is on the Internet all >weekend, so go over and check it out. The address is: >http://www.washtimes.com/fullindex/fullindex.html > > -- End -- > > Sarah Thompson, M.D. The Righter PO Box 1185 Sandy, UT 84091-1185 http://www.therighter.com NOTE NEW ADDRESS!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: R2A! Why don't I ever get asked? (fwd) Date: 15 Mar 1997 23:29:00 -0700 Forward since Kaylin is not on the utah-firearms list. Please copy responses to her as well as the list. On Sat, 15 Mar 1997 15:04:17 "Kaylin Robinson" wrote: > >(Mar 13, 1997 12:43 p.m. EST) - Most Americans believe handguns ought to > >be regulated like automobiles. > >The telephone survey of 1,200 Americans throughout the country disclosed > >for the first time an overwhelming public demand for handguns to be > >treated like other consumer products. The survey showed: > >-- 82 percent favor mandatory registration of handguns. > Not required for automobiles unless used for commercial purposes. > Of course, the LEOs think any use on a public right-of-way is a > commercial use. > >-- 70 percent want handgun owners to be trained and licensed. > No such requirement for automobile owners, only "drivers". > >-- 86 percent support laws to require all new handguns be childproofed. > This a new feature on automobiles? > >-- 68 percent want new handguns "personalized" so only an authorized user > >could operate the weapons. > Another new automotive feature? Car thieves cut out the steering > lock. Though I'll be glad to sell you a personalized fuel pump lock, > AFAIK installation and activation of one is not legally required. > >Tom Smith, director of the survey, characterized the public's position as > >"the automobile model." > Excellent. Show proof you are at least 18 years of age and it's "cash > and carry". Registration is only required to "drive" it off the lot. > >"We register cars and require that people have a license to drive. > >Similarly, we could register guns and license gun owners." You missed a point here , my dear, anyone can buy a car if they have cash to do so. You really dont have to be licensed to buy one OR drive it off the lot. You only need a license to test drive it or register it??? Am I wrong??? > LEOs and armed mercenary guards and couriers, i.e., those using firearms > as weapons for commercial purposes, should be licensed and bonded. > >Almost all Americans, according to the survey, would tighten restrictions > >on gun purchases by criminals and even by those convicted of misdemeanors > >such as shoplifting and driving under the influence of alcohol. > New requirements for purchases of automobiles of which I am unaware? I am aware of no regulations which would stop you from "test driving" (except a license) or buying (not even a license) a car. > >Specifically, 95 percent would prohibit handgun purchases by people > >convicted of displaying a firearm in a threatening manner -- and 61 > >percent would deny guns to people convicted of indecent exposure. > Ban car ownership by people who "drive" recklessly or rudely or > commit lewd or indecent acts in them? I dont even think they ban a car to those convicted of "automobile homicide" > >By big majorities the public also wants stricter laws on gun sales. Seven > >out of 10 believe sales should be limited to stores rather than > >individuals, who currently are allowed to sell at shows or privately. > >Eight out of ten want sales limited to one gun per person per month. > Cars can only be legally purchased from licensed dealers? Guess that > makes me a criminal for selling a car directly to my brother without > cutting a licensed dealer in for his 100% commission. I am so ashamed of you for your criminal activity :) > >Gun homicide is the leading cause of death for black males aged 15 to 24. > >And, the survey disclosed, 20 percent of all Americans have been > >threatened with a gun. > Bet nearly 100% have been threatened with a car. Deaths from injuries > from cars also far outnumber those from guns or projectiles they have > fired. I have been more often threatened with a car!!! Tis true some 20 years ago I was threatened with a gun. But every time I drive downtown I am facing death at the hands of idiots... (much more frequent) One more thing. Do you know that if you kill someone with a gun it is either manslaughter or murder??? (10 to life) However if you kill someone with a car and happen to be drunk or on drugs at the time it is "vehicular homicide" and the max you can get is 5 years in jail??? And I can drive a unlicensed car for a while. God forbid I ever shot one!!!:) Want to regulate guns like they do cars???? I am all for it. at least it would be a start in the right (less intrusive) direction. KR ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Web of Fraud & Deceit 3/3 Date: 17 Mar 1997 10:41:00 -0700 [Missing text?] "death-wish"! The Centers for Disease Control's National Center for Injury Prevention and Control [NCIPC] is funded by you and me. Since 1992, millions of the CDC's annual budget for injury prevention and control have gone to "research" on gun injuries and studies on how handgun availability affects homicide rates. Even more specifically, over the last few years, the CDC has funded the politically driven, scientifically-corrupt firearms-related "research" of Dr. Arthur Kellermann with over $1.7 million of YOUR money! The CDC also funds newsletters that urge people to lobby for "gun-control". A 1989 article in JAMA quoted a CDC official's statement that his work there involved "systematically building a case that owning firearms causes death." And, in the words of NCIPC's own director, Dr. Mark Rosenberg, he "envisions a long term campaign, similar to tobacco use and auto safety, to convince Americans that guns are, first and foremost, a public health menace." It couldn't be stated more plainly. 2 A DIFFERENT BREED In contrast to the phonies like Kellermann and Rosenberg, there are some concerned medical doctors out there who do take the Hippocratic Oath to heart, and put their patients' welfare above all else. These are "working" physicians --- they have practices to tend to, and real patients to care for. Their activities to preserve our Constitution and its Second Amendment are funded, in contrast, by their own incomes, and by individual, concerned private citizens, not by government grants that allow them to sit in an office all day and think up ways to do us gun-owners in. Some of the medical doctor-players in the fight against the politicization of American medicine: Dr. Edgar Suter is a family doctor, and the Chairman of Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research, a nationwide group of health- care professionals --- the name says it all! Dr. Miguel A. Faria, Jr. is a Prof. of Neurosurgery and Adjunct Prof. of Medical History at Mercer University School of Medicine in Macon, Georgia. Dr. Faria fled the shores of Castro's persecution, and knows, firsthand, all about the price of Liberty and freedom. Dr. Martin Fackler is the foremost authority on wound ballistics. He is a tenacious fighter against the tide of politically-correct medical "opinion" when it comes to the diagnosis and treatment of gun-shot wounds. Dr. Timothy Wheeler is Chairman of Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership, a California-based nationwide group of like-minded physicians. Dr. Sarah Thompson is [was-SB] Executive Director of Women Against Gun-Control. Unlike the other "Sarah", Dr. Thompson does not pull in thousands of dollars every time she opens her mouth in public. When not treating patients, Dr. Thompson works tirelessly on our behalf. 3 NO, NOT "TEFLON BULLETS" Spiders are usually helpful to man --- their webs catch insects which are ultimately harmful to our food crops. In this case, however, the web's function is less benevolent, for this web is spun to catch and destroy the truth, and our guns, in the process. The web of fraud and deceit is badly in need of a teflon coating, so the lies can't stick anymore. But a good, Dr. Paul Gallant is engaged in the private practice of Family Optometry, Wesley Hills, NY. He is Chairman, Committee for Law-Abiding Gun-Owners, Rockland [LAGR], a 2nd Amendment grassroots PAC based in Rockland County, NY. The authors may be reached at: LAGR, P.O. Box 354, Thiells, NY 10984-0354. --- --- --- COPYRIGHT 1997 by Conservative Consensus (unless otherwise noted). Please redistribute widely, provided nothing is changed, and our headers and trailers remain intact. Publications may reprint provided credit is given. CURIOUS about what the media and political elite have planned for the rest of us? Want to find out what they'd rather not tell you? Send email with SUBSCRIBE as the subject to: VISIT our Website: Get free, downloadab[text missing, all V3X8] D N DIPR NCIPC disarmament P E Pediatrics Eisen, Joanne Dr. perpetrators=victims F R Faria, Miguel Dr. Rosenberg, Mark Dr. G S Gallant, Paul Dr. sampling procedures sampling-apple/orange H statistics re-cooked Hippocratic Oath study, fraudulent Suter, Edgar Dr. J journal-JAMA T journal-NEJM Thompson, Sarah Dr. Trauma K trust doctor-betrays Kellermann, Arthur Dr. W L Web of Fraud & Deceit Loftin, Colin Ph.D. Wheeler, Timothy Dr. M media medical politicians Subscribe/Unsubscribe requests: consensus-L-request@eskimo.com Advertising, Editorial, etc: ccnrs@eskimo.com Distribution: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Edelman Letter 1/2 Date: 17 Mar 1997 10:41:00 -0700 ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subj: I have never seen this is so clear and in such certain terms... http://TeamInfinity.com/bible http://TeamInfinity.com/urls.html (updated) http://TeamInfinity.com/~ralph/irs.audit.html <-SCATHING GAO Audit of IRS Again I have never seen the denial of Second Amendment rights to the citizens so completely expressed in so certain unequivocal pat terms. I have seen the fax of this actual letter. This should leave absolutely no doubt that this administration (and others I am sure) believes and creates policy that says without reservation that the private citizens in this nation do NOT have the right to possess firearms of ANY TYPE WHATSOEVER. We are NOT talking shades of grey here at all. ralph@TeamInfinity.com "The Constitution shall NEVER be construed to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms..." Samuel Adams Mo10Cav@aol.com wrote, Mike Kemp forwards: 10 March 1997 1 ACR JUSTICE DEPARTMENT CONFIRMS EDELMAN LETTER: CLINTON ADMINISTRATION ADOPTS KING GEORGE III's FIREARMS POLICY The following letter on U.S. Department of Justice official stationery, hand stamped "Feb 20 1997" (date received) was sent by Ms. Ronnie Edelman, Principal Deputy Chief, Terrorism and Violent Crime Section, Criminal Division, Department of Justice to a citizen of Alabama. In the letter, Ms. Edelman answers the addressee's question regarding Clinton Administration policy on the Second Amendment in clear and unequivocal terms. Today, 10 March 1997, the letter was confirmed by both the addresseee and the Justice Department as genuine. This letter, and the policy interpretation it enunciates, is of vital interest to all defenders of the Constitution and particularly, the Second Amendment. The letter reads as follows, in it's entirety: Your electronic mail to President Clinton was forwarded to the Criminal Division of the Department of Justice for response. You asked about reciprocity between the states for recognition of another state's concealed weapons permits, the administration's views on the Second Amendment and handguns, and whether the administration is familiar with the University of Chicago Law School Study on the effects of concealed weapons statutes. As envisioned by the founders of this nation, the federal government was one of limited powers. It was intended, under the Tenth Amendment, that state governments would retain all powers not specifically delegated to the federal government. While this balance has altered over the years, the states have retained certain perogatives and rights. Among those rights retained by the states is the ability to establish the the qualifications necessary to carry a concealed weapon within a given state. As you may be aware, a number of states have adoptive permissive, or "shall issue", concealed weapons statutes. Other states have not elected to pursue this path. The federal government does not participate in this debate. Therefore, this administration does not take a position on the issue of requiring the states to grant recognition of another state's concealed weapons permits. The Second Amendment, whether in regard to handguns or all guns, is a matter of growing scholarly debate. The current state of federal law does not recognize that the Second Amendment protects the rights of private citizens to possess firearms of any type. Instead, the Second Amendment is deemed to be a collective right belonging to the state, not to an individual. Accordingly, the Second Amendment is interpreted by this administration as prohibiting the federal government from preventing a state government from forming or having a state-recognized militia force. With this understanding in mind, the source of a citizen's authority to possess a handgun has never been particularly identified in American law. Since the beginning of the creation of various gun control laws, beginning in 1934, no administration has sought to clarify this ambiguity. Finally, your description of the "University of Chicago Law School study on the effects of concealed weapons statutes" was too general a description for use in locating that study. We have seen a concealed weapon study presented in Volume 62 of the Tennessee Law Review in 1995, which suggests that there is a corresponding drop in crime as the number of concealed weapon permits rise. Nevertheless, the issue of concealed weapons permits remains a matter for state decision. Like the reciprocity provision discussed above, and for the same reasons, the federal government does not currently participate in this debate. Sincerely, (Signature) Ronnie L. Edelman Principal Deputy Chief Terrorism and Violent Crime Section Criminal Division Addendum: The six listed here constitute one half of the U.S. Court of Appeals. The following cases by name, case number and which circuit Courts of Appeals have rendered such decisions: From the Third: United States vs. Tot; 1321 F.2d 261 (1942) From the Sixth: United States vs. Marin; 530 F.2d 103 (1976) From the Seventh: Quilici v. Village of Morton Grove; 532 F. Supp. 1169 (N.D. Illinois 1981) From the Eighth: United States v. Wilber Hale; 978 F. 2d 1016 (1992) From the Ninth: Hickman v. Block; 81 F.3d 98 (1996) From the Tenth: United States vs. Oakes; 564 F. 2nd 384 (1977) This is the current state of the Federal law, ie: The Second Amendment does not protect the right of private citizens to possess firearms of any type. (End of letter) WHAT PART OF "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" DON'T THEY UNDERSTAND?!?!? Contact your Congressman & Senators, now! It is but one step from this policy to federal gun confiscation raids. If you think the Feds won't try it, ask the Davidians-- if you can find any. In their arrogance of power & willful ignorance of the Constitution, the Clintonistas believe that the Second Amendment is just so much toilet paper as far as "the peasants" are concerned. We must convince them otherwise with our phone calls & faxes NOW. If we fail to roll back this "policy" peacefully, we will have to fight to retain the God-given liberties bequeathed us by the sacrifices of our ancestors. [ Continued In Next Message... ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Edelman Letter 2/2 Date: 17 Mar 1997 10:41:00 -0700 [ ...Continued From Previous Message ] 1. I CALL ON ALL FREEDOM-LOVING AMERICANS TO BURN UP THE FAX AND PHONE LINES! DEMAND THAT THE REPUBLICAN MAJORITY IN CONGRESS REPUDIATE THIS DANGEROUS AND UNCONSTITUTIONAL POLICY! DEMAND TO KNOW WHEN IT WAS THAT THIS COUNTRY REVERTED TO THE MONARCHY OF KING GEORGE III (OR KING WILLIAM THE WORST)! 2. DEMAND THAT LEGISLATORS AT ALL LEVELS, FEDERAL, STATE AND LOCAL, AS WELL AS GOVERNORS AND SHERIFFS, DECLARE THEIR OPINION BY RECORDED VOTE OR WRITTEN STATEMENT ON THIS POLICY! WE NEED TO KNOW NOW WHERE THEY STAND, NOW! 3. Clean, bore sight, and take your rifle (or pistol) to the range this Saturday. Post a copy of the above Edelman letter on your target stand and fire the tightest group into it that you can muster-- dead center. Remove the "target", circle the group, make the notation "This is the only kind of 'gun control' the Founding Fathers endorsed", and mail it to your Congressman or local media talking head. 4. Pass on this gentle reminder to all politicians of whatever stripe-- if you imitate King George's policies you may get King George's results. -- Mike Vanderboegh, 1 ACR Constitutional Militiaman "One if by land, Two if by sea, Three if by air assault." El Jeffe, El Capiton, Generalissimo Klintonista speaks out about the US Constitution: "When we got organized as a country and we wrote a fairly radical Constitution with a radical Bill of Rights, giving a radical amount of individual freedom to Americans ..." "And so a lot of people say there's too much personal freedom. When personal freedom's being abused, you have to move to limit it. That's what we did in the announcement I made last weekend on the public housing projects, about how we're going to have weapon sweeps and more things like that to try to make people safer in their communities." President Bill Clinton, 3-22-94, MTV's "Enough is Enough" "We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans ..." Bill Clinton (USA TODAY, 11 March 1993, page 2A) Why can't any of these be considered a violation of the oath of office to uphold the Constitution and qualify as TREASON !! "The road to tyranny, we must never forget, begins with the destruction of the truth." (William J. Clinton, from his 10/15/95 speech at the University of Connecticut to mark- "Fifty Years After Nuremburg: Human Rights & The Rule Of Law") "Gun registration is not enough." Attorney General Janet Reno, December 10, 1993 (Associated Press) "Waiting periods are only a step. Registration is only a step. The prohibition of private firearms is the goal." - Janet Reno ++++++++++++++++++++ ><> ++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are constitutional rights secure." Albert Einstein "Resistance to Tyranny is obedience to God." "Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom? Congress shall have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American ....The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or the state governments, but where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the People."--Tench Coxe, Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788. "We, the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts -- not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution." -- Abraham Lincoln Lest anyone should doubt the INTENT which IS the FORCE of the LAW read on: ralph@TeamInfinity.com The following are some quotes from some of our founding fathers (many of whom were very dedicated Christians, not to mention the framers of the government and thereby whose ORIGINAL intent, is the FORCE of the LAW): 1) "A well regulated [trained] Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Second Amendment (emphasis mine) 2) "No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms ..." Thomas Jefferson 3) "... The people have the right to bear arms for the defense of themselves and the state ..." Pennsylvania declaration of 1776 4) "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined." Patrick Henry 5) "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people... To disarm the people, that is the best and most effective way to enslave them..." George Mason 6) "Americans [have] the right and advantage of being armed -- unlike citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust people with arms." James Madison 7) "... Arms like laws discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order to the world as well as property. The balance of power is the scale of peace." Thomas Paine 8) "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword because the whole body of people are armed and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States..." Noah Webster 9) "Liberty and order will never be perfectly safe until a trespass on the Constitutional provisions for either, shall be felt with the same keenness that resents an invasion of the dearest rights..." James Madison 10) "They that give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin 11) "Arms in the hands of individual citizens may be used at individual discretion...in private self defense." John Adams 12) "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms..." Samuel Adams 13) "Those who reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it." Thomas Paine Am I ignorant to think that I can understand the intent of the Second Amendment without guidance from current day anti-gun "elites"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sarah Thompson Subject: Web of Fraud and Deceit Date: 17 Mar 1997 14:57:54 -0700 >Conservative Consensus(tm) >---------------------------------------------------------------- > Events * Analysis * Commentary * Forecasts * Readers' Opinions >---------------------------------------------------------------- >What in the world is going on? www.eskimo.com/~ccnrs/news.html > >Security Column * V3X8 * 15/Mar/97 * ISSN 1074-245X > > > WEB OF FRAUD AND DECEIT > > >by Dr. Joanne D. Eisen and >Dr. Paul Gallant > >1 A FLY IN THE OINTMENT > > "Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we > practice to deceive!" > > Sir Walter Scott penned those words 150 years ago. But he >must have had a crystal ball to see into the 1990s, because he >sure pegged the medical politicians of America's >anti-self-defense lobby to a tee! > > We're going to untangle this web for you. > > One of the dictums of medicine has always been "Do your >patient no harm". Yet, there are some doctors in high places >who are doing just that. For there are medical "professionals" >in this country who have, by their actions, truly aligned >themselves on the side of the criminals who prey upon society, >both the common street-variety of criminal, as well as the >government-variety. > > They've done this by corrupting a once-prestigious body of >medical literature with lies and fraudulent studies, in the name >of "public health". They've suppressed and distorted legitimate >research on firearms and violence when it disagrees with their >own preconceived notions. > > They've even gone so far as to force the resignation of the >only editor of a medical journal who dared print the truth --- >Dr. Miguel Faria was editor of the Journal of the Medical >Association of Georgia [JMAG] until the summer of 1995. Dr. >Faria's resignation was forced, not because he was an >incompetent editor, but because he refused to mix politics with >medicine [see sidebar]. > > These unscrupulous doctors have done all this to achieve a >goal of civilian disarmament. Well, Hippocratic Oath or not, if >they succeed, the medical politicians will have done irreparable >harm to their collective "patient" --- America's law-abiding >citizens. > >2 BLACK IS WHITE, RIGHT? > > Just as the spider meticulously spins his web, strand by >strand, the medical politicians have used their journals --- >JAMA, NEJM, Trauma, Pediatrics --- and some government agencies >--- the CDC --- to spin their own intricate web of fraud and >deceit. But the target of this web is a different sort of prey >--- it's guns --- our guns! And gun-owners! > > Each strand in the medical politicians' web is another lie, >couched in "scientific" language. Each lie is systematically >leaked to willing accomplices in the media, and heralded as a >great new medical discovery. Each lie is accepted, and repeated >ad nauseum, until liberal folk who, often unfamiliar with >firearms, become fearful of those who themselves, casually and >naturally, regard firearms as tools, as beloved collectibles, as >sporting equipment, and most importantly, as emergency >equipment. > > Law-abiding American gun-owners have been told that WE are >the murderers in society, that WE are responsible for all of >America's problems. We're told guns are "dangerous", and that >if you own a gun, it'll more than likely be used against you! >We're told that if you own a gun, you're magically going to >become transformed into some raging, homicidal sociopath. We're >told, in short, that no thinking, caring, civilized person >should even want to own one of these horrible things in the >first place! > > And, to make sure we buy all this malarkey, the medical >politicians whip up "studies" designed to "prove" their lies, >and tell us black is white, and white is black. > > It is said that "figures lie, and liars figure", and while >the anti-self-defense lobby relies on the "new" math to figure, >the old math works just fine to debunk the figures of the >medical politicians. Most of the tricks used to try to fool us >are not difficult to understand. The tough part comes in >identifying, in a particular study, just which tricks are >employed by these charlatans to skew the results to their >desired conclusion. Here's some of the "how". > >3 A SAMPLE OF BIAS > > As an example, scientific studies depend on sampling >procedures --- that means taking a small portion of the whole, >and using it to base conclusions about the whole from that small >portion which was actually chosen. If that sample is large >enough, and selected properly, it will represent the whole well >enough for most purposes. But, instead of using scientifically >rigorous representative samples, unscrupulous researchers often >use small, carefully selected, non-representative samples, so >that they can build their bias into the study from the very >start. Then, by using data from those unrepresentative samples, >they extrapolate their conclusions to the whole. > > Suppose, for example, we consider a shipment of "fruit", >equally divided into apples and oranges. Apples are high in >pectin, and low in Vitamin C. Oranges, on the other hand, are >higher in Vitamin C, and lower in pectin. However, we could >design a "study" which will "prove" that apples are as high in >Vitamin C as oranges are. All we'd need to do is carefully >select samples of the "fruit" in our shipment, making sure that >we only choose the oranges, and use them as our "representative >fruit sample". Once we determine the Vitamin C content of those >oranges, we can then project the Vitamin C content of this >"fruit" "sample" back to the entire shipment of "fruit". > > Voila! "New Medical Studies Prove Apples Are Just As Good A >Source of Vitamin C as Oranges Are." > > We could devise a similarly dishonest "study" to "prove" >that apples and oranges have the same pectin content. > > Honest researchers take into account the entire shipment. >Dishonest ones generally don't. And, they won't tell you that, >either! > >4 OF DARKNESS AND ICICLES > > Another example of the statistical chicanery used by the >medical politicians is called the "post-hoc" fallacy. This >trick is often camouflaged by a wealth of impressive, but >irrelevant, statistics cited within a study. The post-hoc >fallacy goes like this: If "A" follows "B", then "B" has caused >"A". A variation of this occurs when there may be some >legitimate relationship between the variables "A" and "B", but >it is not possible to be sure which is the cause, and which is >the effect. > > For example, it is always darker on each successive 3rd >Thursday between the months of October and December. Suppose we >measure the temperature on each 3rd Thursday of these months --- >it is highly likely that the 3rd Thursday in November will be >colder than the 3rd Thursday in October, and the 3rd Thursday in >December will be even colder. > > Voila --- "Researchers Make New Discovery: Studies show >that the darker it is, the colder it is!" Just think of the >money that the manufacturers of energy-efficient [plugless] >refrigerators could rake in by marketing a large, dark box! >Sounds silly? Well, when the equation reads "more guns = more >crime", the logic's the same, but that one apparently doesn't >sound quite so silly to some people. > >5 WHO'S LYING HERE? > > Sometimes, finding the truth can seem an almost impossible >task. Sometimes, it's a matter of one person's word against >another, with no other witnesses to help set the record >straight. Today, we have two camps of medical scientists, and >each tells a different story. One side says guns are bad. The >other says guns are only tools --- it's some people who are bad. >If one camp is telling the truth, the other must be lying. But >which one? > > Sometimes, it's easy enough to tell who the liar is, and >one doesn't need 20/20 vision, or a PhD, to see through the web >--- just some plain, old-fashioned common sense. > > In 1986, a study by a Dr. Arthur Kellermann was published >in the New England Journal of Medicine [NEJM] which claimed >something rather incredible to us gun-owners --- this study said >that "a gun-owner is 43 times more likely to kill a family >member than an intruder." Yet, another group of medical >scientists said this was simply not true. > > Who's the liar? You make the call. Hint: The authors of >this study used the bad-guy body-count as the sole measure of >the protective benefits of guns --- totally ignoring the lives >saved, the injuries prevented, the medical costs saved, and the >property protected by the presence of a gun. > > Just 5 years later, in 1991, another study appeared in the >NEJM authored by Colin Loftin, PhD, which, to us gun-owners, >told another incredible tale --- it said that in Washington DC, >the city's ban on all handguns, rifles and shotguns, led to a >reduction of violent crime in the nation's capitol. And, again, >another group of medical scientists said that this was simply >not true. > > Who's the liar here? You make the call. Hint: Just 2 years >after the NEJM published this "study", the mayor of Washington >DC proposed that the National Guard be called in to patrol the >streets of Washington D.C. to keep what little was left of the >"peace". > > Fast forward to 1993. Yet another study appeared in the >NEJM, also authored by Arthur Kellermann, claiming this time >that "a gun-owner is 2.7 times more likely to kill a family >member than an intruder". And, again, another group of medical >scientists said this was simply not true, either. > > Who's the liar? Again, you make the call. Hint: Kellermann >lumped the good guys with the bad guys, and called the bad guys >"victims". Kellermann had the unmitigated chutzpah to label >perpetrators killed by the police, in the line of duty, as >"victims"! > > The claim that a firearm ban could somehow lower the rate >of violent crime in Washington DC was outrageous. That "a >gun-owner is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than >an intruder" was equally so. In hoping to create a more >plausible hoax, Kellermann merely re-cooked the statistics on a >lower flame in order to come up with his "2.7" number. > > What gave Kellermann the confidence to think he could get >away with the perpetration of such a hoax? Banking on the high >esteem most Americans hold their doctors in, Kellermann betrayed >this trust, and in the process, gave Americans corrupted, >statistical and scientific horse-puckey! > > One additional hint --- a week after publication of this >study, during his presentation to a firearm-prohibition advocacy >group, Kellermann made an emotional admission of his already >well- known anti-gun bias! > >6 NOT ALL THE SAME > > In this indictment of the medical politicians of the >anti-self-defense lobby, we'd hate to leave you with the >impression that all doctors come from the same mold as the >Kellermanns and the Loftins. They don't. In fact, there are >some true American patriots within the medical community in the >vanguard of the counter-assault against the web of fraud and >deceit of the medical politicians. > > In stark contrast, Dr. Edgar Suter is a once-unassuming >family doctor from California. Now, Dr. Suter is the >outspoken, foremost expert on firearms and violence in the >medical literature on firearms today. He is, not so >coincidentally, also Chairman of Doctors for Integrity in Policy >Research. > > In the June 1995 Journal of the Medical Association of >Georgia, Dr. Suter wrote: > > It is increasingly common to hear that 'guns are a > virus', or discussion of the 'bullet as pathogen'. As > appealing as the claim may be to some, guns are not > pathogens, and crime is not a disease. Crime is a > social problem that does not lend itself to analysis > or treatment under the medical model. > > Treating crime as a disease --- the essence of the > 'public health' approach to gun violence --- is as > illogical and ineffectual as the converse --- treating > disease as a crime. It is a distorted concept, > indeed, that the rights of good people, the most > virtuous and productive citizens, should be defined > --- or more precisely, restrained --- by the criminal > actions of predators in our society." > > In 1994, there was a study published in the Journal of the >Medical Association of Georgia, authored by Dr. Edgar Suter: >Guns in the Medical Literature --- A Failure of Peer Review". >Calling most of the medical literature on firearms "politicized, >incompetent results-oriented research", Dr. Suter concluded: > > Errors of fact, design, and interpretation abound in > the medical literature on guns and violence. The > overwhelming preponderance of data we have examined > shows that between 25 to 75 lives may be saved by a > gun for every life lost to a gun. Guns save far more > lives than they cost. > > Again, another group of medical scientists says that this >was simply not true. Who's the liar? > > Go ahead --- you make the call. But no hints on this one. > > We don't think you'll need any! > > > > Sidebar Insert --- YOU'RE TWICE A VICTIM --- Sidebar Insert > > >1 A GUN-OWNER'S DEATH-WISH? > > Just who's funding this web of fraud and deceit? Well, >guess what --- we are! Adding insult truly to injury, these >fraudulent "studies" are funded by taxpayer monies --- as >law-abiding gun- owning Americans, who choose only to exercise a >fundamental, Constitutionally-guaranteed right, WE'RE actually >paying to have our own rights stripped away! Talk about a >"death-wish"! > > The Centers for Disease Control's National Center for >Injury Prevention and Control [NCIPC] is funded by you and me. >Since 1992, millions of the CDC's annual budget for injury >prevention and control have gone to "research" on gun injuries >and studies on how handgun availability affects homicide rates. >Even more specifically, over the last few years, the CDC has >funded the politically driven, scientifically-corrupt >firearms-related "research" of Dr. Arthur Kellermann with over >$1.7 million of YOUR money! The CDC also funds newsletters that >urge people to lobby for "gun-control". > > A 1989 article in JAMA quoted a CDC official's statement >that his work there involved "systematically building a case >that owning firearms causes death." And, in the words of NCIPC's >own director, Dr. Mark Rosenberg, he "envisions a long term >campaign, similar to tobacco use and auto safety, to convince >Americans that guns are, first and foremost, a public health >menace." It couldn't be stated more plainly. > >2 A DIFFERENT BREED > > In contrast to the phonies like Kellermann and Rosenberg, >there are some concerned medical doctors out there who do take >the Hippocratic Oath to heart, and put their patients' welfare >above all else. These are "working" physicians --- they have >practices to tend to, and real patients to care for. Their >activities to preserve our Constitution and its Second Amendment >are funded, in contrast, by their own incomes, and by >individual, concerned private citizens, not by government grants >that allow them to sit in an office all day and think up ways to >do us gun-owners in. > > Some of the medical doctor-players in the fight against the >politicization of American medicine: > > Dr. Edgar Suter is a family doctor, and the Chairman > of Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research, a > nationwide group of health- care professionals --- the > name says it all! > > Dr. Miguel A. Faria, Jr. is a Prof. of > Neurosurgery and Adjunct Prof. of Medical History at > Mercer University School of Medicine in Macon, > Georgia. Dr. Faria fled the shores of Castro's > persecution, and knows, firsthand, all about the price > of Liberty and freedom. > > Dr. Martin Fackler is the foremost authority on wound > ballistics. He is a tenacious fighter against the > tide of politically-correct medical "opinion" when it > comes to the diagnosis and treatment of gun-shot > wounds. > > Dr. Timothy Wheeler is Chairman of Doctors for > Responsible Gun Ownership, a California-based > nationwide group of like-minded physicians. > > Dr. Sarah Thompson is Executive Director of Women > Against Gun- Control. Unlike the other "Sarah", Dr. > Thompson does not pull in thousands of dollars every > time she opens her mouth in public. When not treating > patients, Dr. Thompson works tirelessly on our > behalf. > > >3 NO, NOT "TEFLON BULLETS" > > Spiders are usually helpful to man --- their webs catch >insects which are ultimately harmful to our food crops. In this >case, however, the web's function is less benevolent, for this >web is spun to catch and destroy the truth, and our guns, in the >process. > > The web of fraud and deceit is badly in need of a teflon >coating, so the lies can't stick anymore. But a good, >continuous dose of the truth will do the trick, just as well! > --- --- --- >Copyright 1996 by McMullen Argus Publishing, Inc. Reprinted >from the April 1996 issue of American Survival Guide magazine. >Used with permission. > >Dr. Joanne D. Eisen is engaged in the private practice of >Family Dentistry, Old Bethpage, NY. She is President, >Association of Dentists for Accuracy in Scientific Media, an >organization of Dentists concerned with educating the Dental >profession and the populace about the real truth concerning >"gun-control". > >Dr. Paul Gallant is engaged in the private practice of Family >Optometry, Wesley Hills, NY. He is Chairman, Committee for Law- >Abiding Gun-Owners, Rockland [LAGR], a 2nd Amendment grassroots >PAC based in Rockland County, NY. > >The authors may be reached at: LAGR, P.O. Box 354, Thiells, NY >10984-0354. > > --- --- --- >COPYRIGHT 1997 by Conservative Consensus (unless otherwise >noted). Please redistribute widely, provided nothing is >changed, and our headers and trailers remain intact. >Publications may reprint provided credit is given. > >+--------------------------------------------------------------------+ >| SUBSCRIBER OFFER ::: O T T O S C O T T ' S C O M P A S S | >+--------------------------------------------------------------------+ >| "I find it not so surprising that a lot of Otto Scott's ideas and | >| observations have been borrowed," his editor recently told me. | >| As the editor of Conservative Consensus, I agree! Otto Scott | >| writes on today's topics from a unique, historical perspective, | >| that gives you a looking-glass into the future. | >+--------------------------------------------------------------------+ >| Conservative Consensus subscribers can get a free issue by | >| writing to: Otto Scott's Compass, POB 69006 Seattle, WA 98168, or | >| umedia@newway.net for email. Subscriptions are $50 per year. | >+--------------------------------------------------------------------+ > >CURIOUS about what the media and political elite have planned >for the rest of us? Want to find out what they'd rather not tell >you? Send email with SUBSCRIBE as the subject to: > > CONSENSUS-L-REQUEST@eskimo.com > >VISIT our Website: Get free, downloadable news releases that you >can copy and pass on to friends. Updates, back issues, reader >comments. All TEXT -- visit us with any browser. > > http://www.eskimo.com/~ccnrs/news.html > >A CUMULATIVE INDEX of our releases for 1997 will be available on >our Website after mid-March. Release numbers, rather than >pages, will be cited. Here are the entries for this release: > > >" F >"bullet as pathogen" V3X8 fallacy post-hoc V3X8 >"gun as virus" V3X8 > J >D journal-JAMA V3X8 >DIPR V3X8 journal-NEJM V3X8 > >E M >Eisen, Joanne Dr. V3X8 media V3X8 > medical politicians V3X8 >F >Faria, Miguel Dr. V3X8 P > perpetrators=victims V3X8 >G >Gallant, Paul Dr. V3X8 S > sampling procedures V3X8 >H sampling-apple/orange V3X8 >Hippocratic Oath V3X8 statistics re-cooked V3X8 > study, fraudulent V3X8 >K >Kellermann, Arthur Dr. V3X8 T > trust doctor-betrays V3X8 >L >Loftin, Colin Ph.D. V3X8 > >N >NCIPC V3X8 > >P >Pediatrics V3X8 > >R >Rosenberg, Mark Dr. V3X8 > >S >Suter, Edgar Dr. V3X8 > >T >Thompson, Sarah Dr. V3X8 >Trauma V3X8 > >W >Web of Fraud & Deceit V3X8 >Wheeler, Timothy Dr. V3X8 > >D >disarmament V3X8 > >---------------------------------------------------------------- > Subscribe/Unsubscribe requests: consensus-L-request@eskimo.com > Advertising, Editorial, etc: ccnrs@eskimo.com >---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sarah Thompson, M.D. The Righter PO Box 1185 Sandy, UT 84091-1185 http://www.therighter.com NOTE NEW ADDRESS!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sarah Thompson Subject: Hundreds of Millions of Dollars Arms and Bribery at White House Date: 17 Mar 1997 15:05:39 -0700 I guess Clinton's pro-money beliefs are even stronger than his anti-gun beliefs.... .... or could it be he just doesn't HAVE any standards?? Sarah >Unbelievable. Payed off to ship HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars >of arms into the US. Fugitives running from smuggling cases. >Bribery at the White House. And this came out last Friday, and >no news story on network TV!!! > > It was a huge shipment of arms, about 100 containers, said Robert > Sanders, a Washington lawyer who was representing China Jiang An in > negotiations with the Customs Service, the Bureau of Alcohol > Tobacco and Firearms and the State Department over the weapons. ''It > was mostly ammunition, but there was about 100,000 automatic > weapons. Altogether it was a couple hundred-million dollar deal, > he said. > >Arkansas Democrat-Gazette/KARL STOLLEIS >March 14, 1997 >BY MICHAEL HEDGES >SCRIPPS-HOWARD NEWS SERVICE >WASHINGTON > >A massive shipment of Chinese guns and ammunition, which had been >banned by order of President Clinton, was approved for delivery into >the United States four days before the head of a major Chinese gun >company met Clinton in the White House. > >On Feb. 2, 1996, the federal government issued importation permits >for a multimillion dollar shipment of more than 100,000 >semiautomatic weapons and millions of rounds of ammunition. The >permits were for a company called China Jiang An to deliver arms >made by Chinese government owned arms manufacturers Norinco and Poly >Technologies. > >Four days later at the White House, President Clinton met Wang Jun, >chairman of the government owned conglomerate that runs Poly >Technologies. > >Wang was taken to the White House by Charlie Trie, a Little Rock >restaurant owner who tried to donate $644,000 to the Clinton legal >defense fund and had helped raise hundreds of thousands of dollars >for the Democratic National Committee. President Clinton has said he >didn't know Wang Jun until the White House meeting and didn't >discuss business with him. > >The guns never made it into the country because Chinese government >officials involved in their import were, at about the same time, the >target of a massive federal sting operation. While the Chinese >companies were trying to bring guns in legally, there was a backdoor >operation to smuggle in other weapons involving executives of >Norinco and Poly Technologies, federal indictments charged. > >State Department and Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms >officials said the issuing of permits after the ban was appropriate. >A bureau spokesman said the permits were issued under a 1994 >amendment that said Chinese guns in the pipeline for delivery before >the presidential ban would be allowed. But some experts found that >explanation unconvincing. > >It was a huge shipment of arms, about 100 containers, said Robert >Sanders, a Washington lawyer who was representing China Jiang An in >negotiations with the Customs Service, the Bureau of Alcohol >Tobacco and Firearms and the State Department over the weapons. ''It >was mostly ammunition, but there was about 100,000 automatic >weapons. Altogether it was a couple hundred-million dollar deal, >he said. > >Sanders said he had been negotiating with U.S. officials for months >seeking clearance for the weapons to enter the country. > >All of a sudden there was a breakthrough, he said. I can't >account for it. > >Officials at China Jiang An, who listed an address in Michigan on >import permits, couldn't be reached for comment. > >Others were equally surprised. Another attorney said the government >was tying other arms importers in knots to keep guns out of the >country because the Clinton administration was opposed. > >All of a sudden the Chinese can bring in the largest shipment >anyone ever heard of, said the attorney, who asked not to be >identified. I was highly suspicious. > >As representatives of the Chinese gun companies worked to get the >guns approved, they were planning to sneak in other guns, according >to a federal indictment issued in May. > >Lu Yi Lun, identified as an assistant president of Norinco, was in >Washington in late 1995 and early 1996 working to secure import >permits, said American lawyers who met with him. > >Lu told associates that he was under pressure to get Chinese weapons >past the Clinton embargo and that he couldn't go home until the arms >shipment was approved. Just weeks later, Lu was named a central >figure in the indictment issued in the San Francisco gun smuggling >case. He is now a fugitive. > >A federal law enforcement official involved in a huge sting of >Chinese gun pushers said, I don't think it is farfetched to assume >these people (Chinese arms officials) were doing anything and >everything to get legal shipments approved. It was a major source of >hard currency for them. I can't explain why the government would >allow it to happen, especially with the president on record as >adamantly opposed to it. > >After the 1996 indictments, efforts to import the approved guns >stopped, according to attorneys. The Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and >Firearms said no weapons ever arrived under those permits, and they >expired last month. > >The smuggling case continues to cause alarm, however, and is being >discussed in the debate over whether to lease a closed Navy base in >Long Beach, Calif., to a Chinese government owned company. > >Wednesday, Sen. Jon Kyl, R-Ariz., questioned the port deal and >raised the issue of Chinese gun smuggling. Are we allowing this >adjunct to the Chinese military to penetrate our country or >influence us? To me it's quite astounding there was no national >security review of this. > >The San Francisco indictments say Lu and others conspired to smuggle >2,000 machine guns and other munitions into the United States. > >William Schaefer, an assistant U.S. attorney in San Francisco, said >Lu is an indicted defendant who is a fugitive so I am obviously >not in a position to comment about matters involving him. These were >weapons designated as military weapons which were illegal even >before the president's ban of May 1994. > >The indictment said Chinese arms merchants, including Lu, had agreed >to deliver those weapons to undercover agents posing as members of >organized crime. In February 1996, just days after the White House >meeting, Lu and co-conspirators illegally imported the machine guns, >the indictment said. > >Federal enforcement officials were confident that they had >penetrated the upper echelons of the Chinese government's arms >industry, and planned to sting high officials before ending their >undercover operation. But word of the undercover operation leaked in >Washington. > >We had to end this at a very inopportune time, a top federal law >enforcement official said. Some of those indicted who are >fugitives (like Lu) would likely have been arrested. They benefited >from the leak of this story. > >Lu worked under Wang Jun at Norinco, officials said. > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Liberty's Educational Advocacy Forum, Indiana-FIJA, Inc. > Url: http://www.iquest.net/~rjtavel/ > ************************* > Not a high-tech law firm brochure. > Dr. Tavel's Self Help Clinic and Sovereign Law Library > promotes "action that raises the cost of state violence > for its perpetrators (and) that lays the basis for > institutional change " -- Noam Chomsky > For Liberty in Our Lifetime, R.J. Tavel, J.D. > ************************* > Updated Daily by > The Other One Computer Consulting International, Ltd. > mailto:rjtavel@iquest.net > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Sarah Thompson, M.D. The Righter PO Box 1185 Sandy, UT 84091-1185 http://www.therighter.com NOTE NEW ADDRESS!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: HR 1009 Date: 18 Mar 1997 10:47:59 -0700 I put in calls to Hansen, Cook, and Cannon this morning (800-962-3524 or 800-972-0524 gets you the capital switchboard for free. Just ask for Utah Rep whoever.) concerning HR1009, "The States' Rights and 2nd and 10th Amendment Restoration Act of 1997", by Helen Chenoweth. This bill would completely repeal the Lautenberg Gun ban on those convicted of misdemeener domestic violence charges. The staffers who handle such issues were unavailable in both Hansen's and Cannon's offices so I left them messages on their machines. I was able to speak with the fellow in Cook's office who handles these things. He said he was unaware of the bill but would pull it off the computer, look it over, and get Cannon's position on it. I let him know that I had called a week ago and left a message with the secretary concerning the bill before it had even been assigned a number, that it had 11 original co-sponsors, and I was surprised that none of Utah's reps were on the list. We had a nice exchange. He told me what a rat race things were and how tough it was to keep up on bills without constituents letting them know which bills were of concern. I let him know that I wanted Cannon to co-sponsor and support the bill. He was surprised when I pointed out that in some jurisdictions, spanking a child in public could land a "domestic violence" conviction and thus forever deprive someone of the right to own a gun. Moral here is don't assume the staffer or even the congressmen are aware of things we consider obivious. Point them out, and let them hear them again and again. I pointed out that this bill had caused problems for police departments AND for decent law abiding citizens who were now stripped of their rights to hunt, recreate, or defend themselves and their families over some minor mistake that may have occurred 20 or 30 years ago. I also pointed out that while police unions were now working for an exemption for cops, that was a dangerous and unwise course of action. I said, "Even the president must not be above the law." (He liked that.) "Neither should our locol police officers. If it is a bad law for them, it is a bad law for you and me." I told him that it should be up to the States to decide if a particular action warrented removal of basic rights. If it did, they should charge the individual with a felony. In any case, I encourage all of you to take a few minutes and call our three congressmen. Ask to speak to the staffer who handles firearms issues. Speaking with the secretary is like sending an email to the bit bucket I've decided. If the staffer is not available, ask to leave a message on their voice mail. Inform them of the bill (number, name, and sponsor's name, along with what it does), ask them to co-sponsor and support it, and ask for a return call with their position if the staffer doesn't know it. Once again, 800-962-3524 or 800-972-0524. -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on (801)588-7200 | these topics, I'm sure I'm not | the one he would have express it. "Poor people have access to the courts in the same sense that the Christians had access to the lions. . ." -- Judge Earl Johnson Jr. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: HR 1009 -Reply Date: 18 Mar 1997 12:30:21 -0700 Charles: Good to see a post from you. I have talked to Cook's SLC office on three occasions about HR 1009. A few days ago one of Cook's staff called me to discuss the bill. Her name is Helen, and she was surprised that the conservative people from Idaho would favor a bill that gave guns back to domestic abusers. We talked for a few minutes then I faxed her a letter summarizing my reasons for supporting the Bill. I also included some of the releases from GOA and the Dec. '96 WSJ article by Bovard (sic). Cook's SLC staff can not honestly continue to claim they are not aware of the bill, or the reasons Rep. Cook should support it. Helen also promised that Rep. Cook would have a letter out to me soon explaining his position on this bill. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: Re: HR 1009 -Reply Date: 18 Mar 1997 16:57:38 -0700 On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, DAVID SAGERS posted: >A few days ago one of Cook's staff called me to discuss the bill. Her >name is Helen, and she was surprised that the conservative people from >Idaho would favor a bill that gave guns back to domestic abusers. This is where it is important to frame the discussion correctly. "Giving guns back to domestic abusers aka wife beaters" is a losing issue. However, taking taking guns away, removing basic rights, over misdemeaner convictions is the real issue here. By all means, if someone commits a violent and heinous act, whether it be against a family member or a total stranger, charge and convict of a felony, AND then keep them off the streets for a long while. But don't remove basic rights over a public swat on a child's bottom, a shoving match between brothers, or raised voices. I've been thinking that I was basically immune from this legislation and was just fighting it on principle until I remembered today the fights my younger brother and I used to have with each other. We could go at it pretty good one minute and be best buddies again the next. Kept it up until I was 16--past the age when one could be charged as an adult for certain things. Usual stuff among siblings close in age and size I'd guess. But it would probably qualify as some kind of "domestic violence" in today's new world. If someone insists on sticking to the "giving guns back to wife beaters" line, then we can at least back them into the corner of explaining why "wife beaters" who happen to be cops should be given an exemption so they can pack guns around. After all, they can do just as much damage with their service arms (which are taken and stored at home) as they could with a privatly owned gun. >Cook's SLC staff can not honestly continue to claim they are not aware >of the bill, or the reasons Rep. Cook should support it. I've never called any of the local offices. I'm never sure how much communication there is between them and DC during the session. With the 800 numbers and 2 hour time difference it is really easy to call DC at 7:00 am before leaving for work or even over a lunch break. > >Helen also promised that Rep. Cook would have a letter out to me soon >explaining his position on this bill. I'd like to see a copy or at least summary of that letter when you get it. If his position is anything but unequivacable support and co-sponsorship, he's got a LOT of explaining to do. ;) -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on (801)588-7200 | these topics, I'm sure I'm not | the one he would have express it. "Liberals, it has been said, are generous with other peoples' money, except when it comes to questions of national survival when they prefer to be generous with other people's freedom and security." -- William F. Buckley ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: FYI HR 339 Date: 18 Mar 1997 17:05:10 -0700 While speaking to Cook's staffer about HR1009 this morning, he mentioned HR 339 also sponsored by Chenoweth. Apparently, this bill would require States to honor out of State CCW permits. I haven't looked at the bill and don't intend to as it's sure to be DOA. I did mention to the staffer that while I thought it sounded pretty good on the surface, I'd like him to look at how it would treat residents of Vermont who are not required to get a permit to CCW. It would also be interesting to know if it would force the Federal Government to honor CCW permits on the land it controls. EG national parks, forest service, BLM, Washington DC(!). ;) Anyway, for those interested, I'm sure the bill can be found in the usual places. -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on (801)588-7200 | these topics, I'm sure I'm not | the one he would have express it. "Liberals, it has been said, are generous with other peoples' money, except when it comes to questions of national survival when they prefer to be generous with other people's freedom and security." -- William F. Buckley ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pengar Enterprises Inc. & Shire.Net LLC" Subject: Re: HR 1009 -Reply Date: 18 Mar 1997 17:16:47 -0700 Bro Charles said said quoting bro Neil: > >>Cook's SLC staff can not honestly continue to claim they are not aware >>of the bill, or the reasons Rep. Cook should support it. > >I've never called any of the local offices. I'm never sure how much >communication there is between them and DC during the session. With >the 800 numbers and 2 hour time difference it is really easy to call >DC at 7:00 am before leaving for work or even over a lunch break. > Someone told me that the local office is the most important to call. Constituents are more likely to call the local office and so they are taken a little more resiously. So I was told. Call them all! Chad Chad Leigh Pengar Enterprises, Inc and Shire.Net chad@pengar.com info@pengar.com info@shire.net Full service WWW services from just space to complete sites. WWW Wholesale including virtual domains. Tango. PHP/FI Email forwarding -- Permanent Email Addresses. POP3 and IMAP Email Accounts. mailto:info@shire.net for any of these. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: HR 339 Addendum Date: 18 Mar 1997 17:30:58 -0700 OOPPPS. Despite what I posted, curiosity got the best of me and I pulled up the bill on thomas. It is sponsored by Stearns, Bartlett, Hostetler and Barr. Not by Chenoweth. Further, there are serious problems with the bill IMHO. First of all, if the State you are in issues CCW permits, your permit is valid but only with all of the same restrictions of the permits issued by the State you are in. In theory, a State could implement a CCW permit but make it valid only on private property or invalid within 10,000 feet of schools, churches, etc, etc. Or a State could issue permits to carry a concealed firearm, but make it valid only for transport to or from a range for target shooting. (Massachusetts issues two types of gun permits. The easier one to obtain is very similar to the hypothetical "target permit" above.) Your permit would carry the same restrictions and you'd be liable for knowing these restrictions. So anti gun States could circumvent the bill and you gain nothing. The bill handles States which do not issue permits much better by listing those areas--schools, non-gun sporting events, airports, govt buildings, etc--where the permit is not valid. The list is too long, IMO, but at least it is only one list to remember and most places on it are places where we have come to expect our rights(privleges?) will be infringed. Secondly and much more importantly, the bill would also exempt current AND FORMER LEOs sans permits of any kind. However, they are simply exempted from all State laws against CCW without the restrictions above. IE, you or I would be subject to all the restrictions of State issued permits, or to the federal list of restrictions if the State didn't issue permits, while former and current cops would not. They are free to carry into bars, sporting events, schools, churches, govt buildings, polling places, etc, etc, etc. Talk about creating a duel class system! These are not cops on active duty, these are joe citizen in either their home or another State who either currently or at some point in the past worked for a police department somewhere and retired on good terms. So this is a big winner for the LEO establisment while gaining us peons little. With this kind of baggage, I take comfort in the fact that the bill should be DOA. -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on (801)588-7200 | these topics, I'm sure I'm not | the one he would have express it. "Liberals, it has been said, are generous with other peoples' money, except when it comes to questions of national survival when they prefer to be generous with other people's freedom and security." -- William F. Buckley ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: Re: HR 1009 -Reply Date: 18 Mar 1997 17:34:02 -0700 On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, "Pengar Enterprises Inc. & Shire.Net LLC" posted: >Someone told me that the local office is the most important to call. >Constituents are more likely to call the local office and so they are taken >a little more resiously. > >So I was told. > >Call them all! I hadn't though of that. I do make a point of always giving my name and letting them know I am calling from Utah. I then leave a phone number and/or address that proves the point. Of course, calling both may give twice the bang for the buck as I doubt they communicate who has called with which position, only how many have called. -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on (801)588-7200 | these topics, I'm sure I'm not | the one he would have express it. "Liberals, it has been said, are generous with other peoples' money, except when it comes to questions of national survival when they prefer to be generous with other people's freedom and security." -- William F. Buckley ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sarah Thompson Subject: Dunblane vigils end tragically Date: 19 Mar 1997 19:30:15 -0700 Clearly we need to ban candles, matches, lighter, perfume, and perhaps even children and cats! Then again what we REALLY need to do is make stupidity a crime! Sarah >This was so funny I had to forward it - > >From: M Collinson, INTERNET:mcol@starlt.demon.co.uk > >>From the Yorkshire Post 15/3/97 > >A man is recovering in hospital after his Bradford home was set on fire >by a candle he lit in memory of the children of Dunblane. > >Harold Coates suffered burns to his upper body and shock following the >blaze which is believed to have been started by a candle that fell on >the floor from the window ledge of his home in New Cross street. > >Firemen found the ground floor well alight and had to rescue Mr Coates >who was asleep upstairs. He is now recovering in Bradford Royal >Infirmary. > >...Paramedic Ted Wilson gave Mr Coates's pet cat heart massage after it >had been overcome with smoke. > >In Leeds single mother of four Beverley Cosgrove narrowly missed losing >her home when a Dunblane candle set up by her 13 year old son filled the >house with thick black smoke. > >...."The problem is that there could have been thousands of children >doing this around the country, and if their parents didn't know it could >lead to tragedy. Everyone wants to do something for Dunblane, but I >think they should consider something else instead of candles" she said >-- >Also, a pensioner in Ladywood, Birmingham was seriously >injured by flying glass after mounting a candle in the >top of a perfume bottle. The heat caused the perfume >to ignite, causing an explosion which blew out the >window of her apartment. > >Gotta love the anti-gunners here. My God are they STOO-PID! > >Also you will no doubt be happy to know that Sean Connery >is doing an anti-handgun ad which will be shown in cinemas >here. > >Steve. > > Sarah Thompson, M.D. PO Box 1185 Sandy, UT 84091-1185 http://www.therighter.com NOTE: NEW ADDRESS!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sarah Thompson Subject: David Caplan - NRA election Date: 19 Mar 1997 20:08:28 -0700 >I am in receipt of a scurrilous letter attacking long time NRA board member >David I. Caplan and urging that he not be reelected. The letter purports to >be signed by "Tim Wilson" who purports to be writing from "The Paladin >Group" and to state its position. I am informed: a) that there is no "Tim >Wilson" who wrote this letter at the "Paladin Group"; b) that the Paladin >Group is not Paladin Press, has no connection w/ firearms or the NRA and >does not take any of the positions attributed to it in the letter -- nor is >it opposed to those positions. It simply has no relevance to such issues; >they are as irrelevant to it as the Filoque Question is to the AFL-CIO. > > Indicative of the accuracy of this letter is the fact that it >claims Caplan supports the unseating of Wayne LaPierre. In fact, Caplan is >a supporter of LaPIerre's and is supported by him for reelection, as anyone >can determine by looking at the full page ad in the AMERICAN RIFLEMAN. When >this letter cannot be trusted as to matters that can be checked, no >credence can be put on its subjective or other non-verifiable claims. > > The fact is that David Caplan is a very able >physicist-turned-patent lawyer who has labored long and selflessly not only >on the NRA board and various committees but in bringing gun cases (without >compensation) in the NT court, including one major legal victory from that >states highest court. He also pioneered Second Amendment issues having >written several law review articles in the 1970s and 1980s. > > Please do not take the foregoing as making any statement on the >issue of Wayne LaPierre, Neal Knox etc. I have literally NO OPINION on that >issue because I don't know enough to make a judgment. My support for David >Caplan does not relate to this at all. I also unreservedly endorse Law >Professor Joe Olson, who is also the president of Academics for the Second >Amendment. As reference to the American Rifleman etc. will show, Joe is a >strong supporter of Neal's and opponent of Wayne LaPierre. > Don Kates > > Sarah Thompson, M.D. PO Box 1185 Sandy, UT 84091-1185 http://www.therighter.com NOTE: NEW ADDRESS!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sarah Thompson Subject: NRA elections (fwd) Date: 19 Mar 1997 22:38:30 -0700 A note from Joe Olsen... > Normally I wouldn't burden this list with a blatent Ad for my >reelection but Kates brought the issue up and since the strength of >America's premier civil liberties guardian is at stake, I'll send you some >stuff. > 1st. The election isn't about Mr. LaPierre as a person. It is >about his abysmal lack of business/finance management talent AND his >evasion of Board directives attempting to bring financial stability to the >organization. In my opinion, it is desireable to keep (if that is still >possible) him on as a spokesman/lobbiest but it is imparitative to get him >away from business/financial side of the house. On this point, notice >that all four of the Finance Committee (which passed a unanimous lack of >confidence straw vote in December) are targeted for unelection by Mr. >LaPierre's supporters. > > 2nd. Mr LaPierre poured gasoline on the bridge by calling the >New York Times into his office for a press conference in which he called >those Directors who aren't enamored with his management "extremeists," >supporter of "militias" and worse. That is indicative of his poor >judgement. In a business corporation, he wouldn't have lasted another >day. But he did succeed in distracting some Directors from the REAL >business/financial failings of his leadership. > > 3rd. Neal Knox did not start this to get LaPierre's job. Neal >doesn't want it and won't take it. What happened was that concerned >Directors (like me) went to Neal because he is an acknowledged NRA leader, >a man of vast experience within the NRA, and the First Vice-President with >our concerns that the business/financial leadership was worse than >terrible. We discovered the problem, "pulled" information out of a >reluctant staff, and brought the matter to Neal when it became obvious >that Mr. LaPierre's continuance as Executive Vice President (General >Manager) of the NRA threatened the financial future of the entire >organization. > > 4th. There is no philosophical split on the Board regarding the >need for vigorous defense of the Constitutional right to keep and bear >arms. > >For more, see The Minnesota Director's Letter at http://www.visi.com/~gray >and read the attached plug for my reelection (it has some discussion of >the problems at NRA). > I attended a seminar of the Academics for the Second Amendment where I had the chance to get to know Joe, and I endorse him unequivocally. Sarah Sarah Thompson, M.D. PO Box 1185 Sandy, UT 84091-1185 http://www.therighter.com NOTE: NEW ADDRESS!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynne, Steve" Subject: RE: Dunblane vigils end tragically Date: 20 Mar 1997 09:08:00 MET Alternatively we could ban all gun owners who are notoriously stupid as this on-line group regularly proves. A entire class of schoolchildren were killed by someone who was allowed to have a gun license. I'm not sure that those of you that have children who seem to be able to dismiss this tragedy so easily would be so happy if they were your kids that were massacred whilst in gym. The righter ? You're just very very sad. Please, all of you, stay on that side of the Atlantic and just continue to ruin your own country. ---------- edgarsuter; jneil; sfbearcop; gardner; gunflower; jerry; jbovard; 102062.2510; 6mysmesa; keeva; Matti; 70274.1222; rjtavel; wapette; WAGC; drgotww; utah-firearms; Stonewall Clearly we need to ban candles, matches, lighter, perfume, and perhaps even children and cats! Then again what we REALLY need to do is make stupidity a crime! Sarah >This was so funny I had to forward it - > >From: M Collinson, INTERNET:mcol@starlt.demon.co.uk > >>From the Yorkshire Post 15/3/97 > >A man is recovering in hospital after his Bradford home was set on fire >by a candle he lit in memory of the children of Dunblane. > >Harold Coates suffered burns to his upper body and shock following the >blaze which is believed to have been started by a candle that fell on >the floor from the window ledge of his home in New Cross street. > >Firemen found the ground floor well alight and had to rescue Mr Coates >who was asleep upstairs. He is now recovering in Bradford Royal >Infirmary. > >...Paramedic Ted Wilson gave Mr Coates's pet cat heart massage after it >had been overcome with smoke. > >In Leeds single mother of four Beverley Cosgrove narrowly missed losing >her home when a Dunblane candle set up by her 13 year old son filled the >house with thick black smoke. > >...."The problem is that there could have been thousands of children >doing this around the country, and if their parents didn't know it could >lead to tragedy. Everyone wants to do something for Dunblane, but I >think they should consider something else instead of candles" she said >-- >Also, a pensioner in Ladywood, Birmingham was seriously >injured by flying glass after mounting a candle in the >top of a perfume bottle. The heat caused the perfume >to ignite, causing an explosion which blew out the >window of her apartment. > >Gotta love the anti-gunners here. My God are they STOO-PID! > >Also you will no doubt be happy to know that Sean Connery >is doing an anti-handgun ad which will be shown in cinemas >here. > >Steve. > > Sarah Thompson, M.D. PO Box 1185 Sandy, UT 84091-1185 http://www.therighter.com NOTE: NEW ADDRESS!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises Inc and Shire.Net" Subject: RE: Dunblane vigils end tragically Date: 20 Mar 1997 08:26:18 -0700 >Alternatively we could ban all gun owners who are notoriously stupid as this >on-line group regularly proves. >A entire class of schoolchildren were killed by someone who was allowed to >have a gun license. I'm not sure that those of you that have children who >seem to be able to dismiss this tragedy so easily would be so happy if they >were your kids that were massacred whilst in gym. >The righter ? You're just very very sad. >Please, all of you, stay on that side of the Atlantic and just continue to >ruin your own country. It is a sad tragedy. But gun laws did nothing to prevent it. Your UK gun laws are very draconian, and, though you won't believe it, do nothing to protect you. They didn't stop this tragedy. Sometimes tragedies happen. That is part of the human experience. With a population of 5 billion, the world will statistically see tragedies like this on a regular basis, and with improved communications the rest of the world hears about it. Similar tragedies happened in the past but nobody knoew except those involved because the world's communications were very non-existant. The "news" item of the burnings is sad. Forwarding around the "news" article was probably in bad taste. What some people found "funny" is that in all the rush for "feel good" reactions people were causing more problems. Personally, I didn't find it humorous. Let me assure you. No one was laughing at the tragedy itself. Only sadness. (And frustration knowing full well that those anti-gun zealots would capitalize on this tragedy to push their irrational fears into the mainstream media again to push their agenda) The bigger tragedy is that people, in their fear of tragedies, try very hard to force people to live the way they want them to. People in the modern world want everything to be "idyllic" and "good" and are willing to trample on their neighbors to force their neighbors to live according to their ideals. That is the real tragedy of today's society. The intolerance of people for their neighbors. Especially intolerance rooted in irrational fear. Guns play a greater role for good in a society then they do for bad. Too bad the UK doesn't have a few more guns. You might find less crime on your streets and in your homes. A growing body of scholarly research shows that more crime is averted through the use of a firearms than is caused by a firearms existence. Almost no crime is caused by a firearms existence. Lots of crime is averted by a firearms being at the right place at the right time. Steve, your posting was very condescending. Calling people stupid and talking down to them because you have an irrational fear that you cannot deal with is condescending. I suggest you acquaint yourself with some rational thoughts concerning guns, not fearful reactional thoughts. Acquaint yourself with the body of supportable research that discounts the notion of "gun control" as a way to stop crime. Learn the sociological reasons that the UK has less firearms crime than the US. Become informed. Stop being a reactionary and start being an agent of action based on knowledge, reason, and logic. Chad Chad Leigh Pengar Enterprises, Inc and Shire.Net chad@pengar.com info@pengar.com info@shire.net Full service WWW services from just space to complete sites. Low cost virtual servers. DB integration. Tango. Email forwarding -- Permanent Email Addresses. POP3 and IMAP Email Accounts. mailto:info@shire.net for any of these. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: RE: Dunblane vigils end tragically Date: 20 Mar 1997 12:07:19 -0700 On Thu, 20 Mar 97 09:08:00 MET, "Wynne, Steve" posted: > >Alternatively we could ban all gun owners who are notoriously stupid as this >on-line group regularly proves. I understand that Great Britain, Japan, and many other nations have come very close to banning the private ownership of guns altogether. Yet, even as restrictions get tighter, crimes, both tragic and mundane, involving firearms continue to increase. are not your police now asking for guns for their own defense while fighting crimes? I seem to recall an article recently which said the carrying of knives was also coming under regulation in England. Seems crimes with knifes are also increasing. What's next, cricket bats, walking sticks, shovels, and steel toed work boots? As the failures of the total ban on certain drugs and certain pornography in the U.S. and the increasingly tight restrictions on guns and knives in the UK go to prove, you cannot prevent people from obtaining anything if they want it badly enough. The only people affected by a prohibition on guns are those who are law abiding and would pose no threat to their fellow men anyway. Academic studies in the U.S. indicate that making it easy for law abiding citizens to carry weapons for self defense, results in roughly a 7% decrease in violent crime. It is also interesting to note deToqueville's observations on America's very low crime rate in spite of having almost no professional police forces in her cities. That observation was made at a time when freemen were allowed to arm themselves as they saw fit. >A entire class of schoolchildren were killed by someone who was allowed to >have a gun license. I'm not sure that those of you that have children who >seem to be able to dismiss this tragedy so easily would be so happy if they >were your kids that were massacred whilst in gym. What occured in that school is a tragidy and I've yet to see anyone, on this list or elsewhere, suggest otherwise. That tragidy, however, was not cause by "stupidity" on the part of a gun owner. It was caused by an evil, homicidial maniac who likely had something in his background which should have prevented him from owning a gun LEGALLY under your laws. But anyone callous enough to perpetuate such an atrocity, is not going to think twice about whether they have a license for the weapon they use. Atrocities committed using guns make for striking headlines and prompt grand and glorious speaches by politicians. But laws prohibiting the private ownership of guns will not prevent the criminally depraved from obtaining them and using them towards evil ends. As a similar situation in a Roadside Diner in the U.S. shows, they do prevent decent and law abiding people from being able to effectively defend themselves and loved ones from the maniacs who have, since time immemorial, preyed upon the weak and defenseless. You would seem to like to make us all defenseless against armed or even simply numerous thugs. And such laws will do absolutly nothing to prevent such fiends from committing acts of terror through other means. One of the largest massacures in U.S. history was perpetuated using nothing more than 2 gallons of petro and a match. Shall we outlaw gasoline and matches? Very few of the rioters in L.A. used guns. Bricks, fists, bats, and matches are all mobs need to destroy entire cities. It's illustritave how a couple of diminuative Asian shop keepers were able to save their life's work from the mob's terror just by having a gun or two handy. It's tragic how many more decent people were prevented by California's strict gun licensing laws from obtaining guns when they really needed them. I do not yet have children. Regardless, neither I, nor anyone I know has dismissed this tragedy, easily or otherwise. On the contrary, the absolute inability of the school system to provide even rudamentary security for the children in their care (in both the U.K. and the U.S.) is one more evidence that perhaps when I do have children, I should seriously consider schooling them at home. However, I also realize that life is, by its very nature, an uncertain and risky business. No parent would ever want to lose a child. But neither can a parent protect their child from all possible harm. Even attempting to do so will cause more harm than good. I grew up riding horses, motercycles, and snowmobiles. I also did some rapelling and a lot of camping. These things all pose fairly high levels of danger compared to sitting at home watching the Television. But the rewards are much greater as well. My parents understood this and allowed me the opportunities afforded by such activities. So it is with countries. Japan and England are probably safer places to live so far as crime is concerned than is the U.S. Singapore is certainly safer and cleaner than any of the above. But to me, freedom is more important than safety. I would rather die on my feet fighting for that freedom, than live on my knees begging for mercy and privlege. And whether it is government forces, a crazed homicidal maniac, or just a common street thug who is trying to deprive me my freedom, a firearm is the best tool available to assist me in maintaing that freedom. >The righter ? You're just very very sad. >Please, all of you, stay on that side of the Atlantic and just continue to >ruin your own country. I'm more than happy to do just that. As were my forefathers some 225 years ago. I think I and my countrymen would simply return your own request back to you. Please, stay on your side of the atlantic and run your country as you see fit. But don't try to run mine. Please quit using the U.N., your diplomats, and your media to try to impose gun control in my nation. Quit complaining when I reject your efforts to impose gun control in my nation. We certainly have never attempted to force you to allow ownership of guns. And also please have the backbone to live with the consequences of your decision to be an unarmed nation. Please do not repeat your pleas, already made twice in this century, for my nation to become involved in your wars when you find you can't quite handle them yourselves. Please do not ask ever again for the decent, law abiding citizens of this nation, whom you would, if you had your way, disarm today, to donate their private guns--the very guns you would have taken from them by force and destroyed--so that your own unarmed populace can be prepared to repell what seems an imminent invasion of your nation. You were once the greatest empire in the world--an empire on which the sun never set. You are now little more than a tiny island nation. What possible evidence have you to offer that ANY of your country's policies in any area should be adopted by anyone? I sorrow in the death of your children. But do not expect me to allow the death of a few dozen children in your nation--deaths that may well have been prevented simply by providing their teachers with the proper training and equipment to offer some defense--to browbeat me into surrendering my God-given and blood-won--the blood of nearly 1 million Americans who have died and countless more who have been wounded since we decided to stay on our side of the Atlantic and "ruin [our] own country" in 1776--rights and freedoms. Yes, I sorrow in the death of your children. My freedom loving countrymen sorrow in the death of your children. And we have no intention of having to sorrow in the death of our, or our children's freedom. We intend to do everything we can to prevent that death. For that would be an even greater tragidy than what happened in your schoolhouse. With best regards and deepest condolances, -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on (801)588-7200 | these topics, I'm sure I'm not | the one he would have express it. "... The answer is that one would like to be both the one and the other; but because it is difficult to combine them, it is far better to be feared than loved if you cannot be both. ...Men worry less about doing an injury to one who makes himself loved than to one who makes himself feared. The bond of love is one which men, wretched creatures that they are, break when it is to their advantage to do so; but fear is strengthened by a dread of punishment which is always effective." - - Machiavelli - The Prince; Chapter 17 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: RE: Dunblane vigils end tragically Date: 20 Mar 1997 12:07:19 -0700 On Thu, 20 Mar 97 09:08:00 MET, "Wynne, Steve" posted: > >Alternatively we could ban all gun owners who are notoriously stupid as this >on-line group regularly proves. I understand that Great Britain, Japan, and many other nations have come very close to banning the private ownership of guns altogether. Yet, even as restrictions get tighter, crimes, both tragic and mundane, involving firearms continue to increase. are not your police now asking for guns for their own defense while fighting crimes? I seem to recall an article recently which said the carrying of knives was also coming under regulation in England. Seems crimes with knifes are also increasing. What's next, cricket bats, walking sticks, shovels, and steel toed work boots? As the failures of the total ban on certain drugs and certain pornography in the U.S. and the increasingly tight restrictions on guns and knives in the UK go to prove, you cannot prevent people from obtaining anything if they want it badly enough. The only people affected by a prohibition on guns are those who are law abiding and would pose no threat to their fellow men anyway. Academic studies in the U.S. indicate that making it easy for law abiding citizens to carry weapons for self defense, results in roughly a 7% decrease in violent crime. It is also interesting to note deToqueville's observations on America's very low crime rate in spite of having almost no professional police forces in her cities. That observation was made at a time when freemen were allowed to arm themselves as they saw fit. >A entire class of schoolchildren were killed by someone who was allowed to >have a gun license. I'm not sure that those of you that have children who >seem to be able to dismiss this tragedy so easily would be so happy if they >were your kids that were massacred whilst in gym. What occured in that school is a tragidy and I've yet to see anyone, on this list or elsewhere, suggest otherwise. That tragidy, however, was not cause by "stupidity" on the part of a gun owner. It was caused by an evil, homicidial maniac who likely had something in his background which should have prevented him from owning a gun LEGALLY under your laws. But anyone callous enough to perpetuate such an atrocity, is not going to think twice about whether they have a license for the weapon they use. Atrocities committed using guns make for striking headlines and prompt grand and glorious speaches by politicians. But laws prohibiting the private ownership of guns will not prevent the criminally depraved from obtaining them and using them towards evil ends. As a similar situation in a Roadside Diner in the U.S. shows, they do prevent decent and law abiding people from being able to effectively defend themselves and loved ones from the maniacs who have, since time immemorial, preyed upon the weak and defenseless. You would seem to like to make us all defenseless against armed or even simply numerous thugs. And such laws will do absolutly nothing to prevent such fiends from committing acts of terror through other means. One of the largest massacures in U.S. history was perpetuated using nothing more than 2 gallons of petro and a match. Shall we outlaw gasoline and matches? Very few of the rioters in L.A. used guns. Bricks, fists, bats, and matches are all mobs need to destroy entire cities. It's illustritave how a couple of diminuative Asian shop keepers were able to save their life's work from the mob's terror just by having a gun or two handy. It's tragic how many more decent people were prevented by California's strict gun licensing laws from obtaining guns when they really needed them. I do not yet have children. Regardless, neither I, nor anyone I know has dismissed this tragedy, easily or otherwise. On the contrary, the absolute inability of the school system to provide even rudamentary security for the children in their care (in both the U.K. and the U.S.) is one more evidence that perhaps when I do have children, I should seriously consider schooling them at home. However, I also realize that life is, by its very nature, an uncertain and risky business. No parent would ever want to lose a child. But neither can a parent protect their child from all possible harm. Even attempting to do so will cause more harm than good. I grew up riding horses, motercycles, and snowmobiles. I also did some rapelling and a lot of camping. These things all pose fairly high levels of danger compared to sitting at home watching the Television. But the rewards are much greater as well. My parents understood this and allowed me the opportunities afforded by such activities. So it is with countries. Japan and England are probably safer places to live so far as crime is concerned than is the U.S. Singapore is certainly safer and cleaner than any of the above. But to me, freedom is more important than safety. I would rather die on my feet fighting for that freedom, than live on my knees begging for mercy and privlege. And whether it is government forces, a crazed homicidal maniac, or just a common street thug who is trying to deprive me my freedom, a firearm is the best tool available to assist me in maintaing that freedom. >The righter ? You're just very very sad. >Please, all of you, stay on that side of the Atlantic and just continue to >ruin your own country. I'm more than happy to do just that. As were my forefathers some 225 years ago. I think I and my countrymen would simply return your own request back to you. Please, stay on your side of the atlantic and run your country as you see fit. But don't try to run mine. Please quit using the U.N., your diplomats, and your media to try to impose gun control in my nation. Quit complaining when I reject your efforts to impose gun control in my nation. We certainly have never attempted to force you to allow ownership of guns. And also please have the backbone to live with the consequences of your decision to be an unarmed nation. Please do not repeat your pleas, already made twice in this century, for my nation to become involved in your wars when you find you can't quite handle them yourselves. Please do not ask ever again for the decent, law abiding citizens of this nation, whom you would, if you had your way, disarm today, to donate their private guns--the very guns you would have taken from them by force and destroyed--so that your own unarmed populace can be prepared to repell what seems an imminent invasion of your nation. You were once the greatest empire in the world--an empire on which the sun never set. You are now little more than a tiny island nation. What possible evidence have you to offer that ANY of your country's policies in any area should be adopted by anyone? I sorrow in the death of your children. But do not expect me to allow the death of a few dozen children in your nation--deaths that may well have been prevented simply by providing their teachers with the proper training and equipment to offer some defense--to browbeat me into surrendering my God-given and blood-won--the blood of nearly 1 million Americans who have died and countless more who have been wounded since we decided to stay on our side of the Atlantic and "ruin [our] own country" in 1776--rights and freedoms. Yes, I sorrow in the death of your children. My freedom loving countrymen sorrow in the death of your children. And we have no intention of having to sorrow in the death of our, or our children's freedom. We intend to do everything we can to prevent that death. For that would be an even greater tragidy than what happened in your schoolhouse. With best regards and deepest condolances, -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on (801)588-7200 | these topics, I'm sure I'm not | the one he would have express it. "... The answer is that one would like to be both the one and the other; but because it is difficult to combine them, it is far better to be feared than loved if you cannot be both. ...Men worry less about doing an injury to one who makes himself loved than to one who makes himself feared. The bond of love is one which men, wretched creatures that they are, break when it is to their advantage to do so; but fear is strengthened by a dread of punishment which is always effective." - - Machiavelli - The Prince; Chapter 17 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: Cop shoots Cop Date: 20 Mar 1997 12:47:47 -0700 And they worry about private citizens losing their cool. Why was a cop brandishing a weapon in the first place? From today's trib.. [Image] [Image] [Image] Thursday, March 20, 1997 [Image] [Image] Mistaken Identity As Cop Kills Cop THE ASSOCIATED PRESS LOS ANGELES -- Two motorists exchanged words, one waved a gun and was fatally shot by the other without either man realizing that they were police officers, one off-duty and the other undercover, authorities said. Undercover Det. Frank Lyga, 40, fired two shots after Officer Kevin Gaines, 31, waved his weapon on a busy street in a commercial neighborhood Tuesday afternoon, Police Chief Willie Williams said. Neither officer was wearing a uniform and both were driving unmarked cars. Gaines' car ended up in the parking lot of a North Hollywood gas station a few blocks from Universal Studios Hollywood. Lyga, who was working a sting operation, pulled Gaines from his car as other undercover officers converged on the scene, police said. Gaines was identified as an officer from the Pacific Division in West Los Angeles after he arrived at the hospital, where he was pronounced dead an hour and a half after the shooting. Police did not know why the two men were arguing. Each had at least 10 years of experience with the department. ''All we know is that a tragic and confusing confrontation took place and neither knew the other was a police officer,'' said Officer Eduardo Funes, a department spokesman. -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on (801)588-7200 | these topics, I'm sure I'm not | the one he would have express it. "You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift. You cannot strenghten the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot further the brotherhood of man by encouraging class hatred. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot build character and courage by taking away a man's initiative and independence. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves." --Abraham Lincoln ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pengar Enterprises Inc. & Shire.Net LLC" Subject: Utah-Firearms/ROC project proposal: Fed buildings to allow check Date: 20 Mar 1997 13:27:18 -0700 I have a proposal for all of us. Let's get Merrill Cook (R - UT 2) to propose a bill in the House and then lets get Reps all over to support it. Federal Buildings and Federal Property could not be off limits to legally carried weapons (in the states where that is possible) UNLESS they provided a mechanism for safe checking of weapons (like I understand AZ does). This would include Post Offices and any Federal Building located in states with CCW (of any type). What say ye? Chad Chad Leigh Pengar Enterprises, Inc and Shire.Net chad@pengar.com info@pengar.com info@shire.net Full service WWW services from just space to complete sites. WWW Wholesale including virtual domains. Tango. PHP/FI Email forwarding -- Permanent Email Addresses. POP3 and IMAP Email Accounts. mailto:info@shire.net for any of these. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pengar Enterprises Inc. & Shire.Net LLC" Subject: Utah-Firearms project 2 Date: 20 Mar 1997 13:33:59 -0700 Private Eye magazine and some other events rag magazine in the same vein as Private Eye are always publishing anti-gun drivel. A recent issue of the events one I saw at a sandwich store was claiming (through undercover reporting from the gun show) that the Salt Palace gun show is just a den of Naziism (and implying that gun owners are a bunch of Nazi skin head sympathizers) and nothing else. Private Eye regularly publishes opinion pieces by Ron Yengich, some attorney of the bleeding heart liberal do gooder type, and these often are anti-gun using outrageous and inflammatory language to describe gun owners and those who would resist his statist ideas. We need to respond to these whereever and whenever they occur. We need to use intelligent, rational, and logical thinking without resorting to name calling or "extremist" language. We need to make these people and their ideas look stupid and extreme to the public using rational and logical speach. We can use this mailing list to report such drivel and to help each other in formulating responses. Both directly to the publishes and authors as well as indirectly through other Utah/SL-area media like the Trib and Deseret News opinion letters column. Who is on board? Chad Chad Leigh Pengar Enterprises, Inc and Shire.Net chad@pengar.com info@pengar.com info@shire.net Full service WWW services from just space to complete sites. WWW Wholesale including virtual domains. Tango. PHP/FI Email forwarding -- Permanent Email Addresses. POP3 and IMAP Email Accounts. mailto:info@shire.net for any of these. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Utah-Firearms project 2 -Reply Date: 20 Mar 1997 13:57:23 -0700 I am ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: The Ithaca Auto and Burglar (fwd) Date: 20 Mar 1997 13:40:00 -0700 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- THE ITHACA AUTO AND BURGLAR By L. Neil Smith Exclusive to _The Libertarian Enterprise_ The faded magazine ad haunts us across six long decades of stupidity and corruption: "Here's the Ithaca Auto and Burglar gun, the so-called "Sawed Off Shot Gun" which holdup men fear because its load of sixteen buckshot spread over such a wide circle that a poor gun pointer, who would miss with a revolver or pistol ... is very sure to hit ... handy to carry in the pocket of an auto or in a holster ... Detective Harry Loose ... first induced the banks in and around Chicago to use it, then its use spread to sheriffs, police departments, paymasters, watchmen, express messengers, and it's a wonderful home protector. The U.S. Army demonstrated what American shotguns ... would do during the late war. This Ithaca Auto and Burglar Gun weighs about 1 1/4 pounds, it has 20 gauge 12 1/4" barrels, cylinder bore ... Price, including excise tax, $40.55." The Ithaca Auto and Burglar was a veritable marvel in its time, a near-perfect blue steel and walnut "magic wand" of self-defense, against strong-arm artists and protection racketeers in the age in which it was introduced, ideal -- because of its light weight, moderate caliber, limited range, and short length -- for women, the elderly, and children who might require it, not only against house burglars, muggers, and the like, but against an abusive or incestuous parent. If John Lennon had been carrying an Ithaca Auto and Burglar under his coat, the Fab Four would be selling live albums of their fifth reunion concert by now. It is illegal -- or, more accurately and revealingly, placed beyond the reach of all but an economic and political elite -- and has been since 1934, because its 12 1/4" barrels are 5 3/4" shorter than federal law mandates, and its overall length -- roughly 20" -- is shy, by about the same amount, of the minimum length specified by a statute that should never have been passed or judicially upheld in a nation with something like a Second Amendment in its Constitution. When I was a kid, my first lesson in politics arose from the fact that my home town, Fort Collins, Colorado, was "dry" -- which is to say that it was illegal to sell "adult beverages" within the city limits, and had been since Prohibition. What made it educational was that this imbecilic situation was maintained at the polls every year by a tacit coalition of self-righteously muttering church ladies like my own grandmother, and -- to begin with -- by bootleggers who plied their trade inside the town, and later on, by proprietors of bars and liquor stores that came to surround the "Choice City" in a tight ring. If you understand that, you understand the politics of victim disarmament -- commonly and improperly known as "gun control". National politics of the 1930s were dominated by an unprecedented violence and corruption that sprang directly from trying to outlaw production, distribution, and consumption of ethanol. Every bit of the criminal activity -- gang-wars, drive-by shootings, summary search and seizure, asset forfeiture -- that we have come to associate in our times with drug prohibition arose, to begin with, in the "Roaring Twenties". In those days, Al Capone was the most politically powerful individual in Chicago, in the Midwest, and possibly in the United States. He purchased city councilmen, state legislators, congressmen and senators the same way that I (the daddy of an electronic-age seven-year-old) purchase AA batteries. Others of his kind did as much of the same thing as they could. I leave it to _you_ to figure out whose interests were _really_ being represented in Congress in 1934. The "weapon of choice" for creatures like Al Capone was hardly the Ithaca and Auto Burglar, or even the infamous Thompson Submachinegun, it was the lives of countless revolver-carrying cannon-fodder thugs, and the influence of crooked politicians. Who was really protected by the Ithaca and Auto Burglar and the Tommy Gun? Shopkeepers, householders, and especially truck drivers whose vehicles were often stopped and stolen (just as Florida pleasure boats are today) to serve as disposable conveyances for illicit alcohol. One store proprietor with a "sawed off" scattergun could discourage three or four goons who'd come to collect. One truck driver with a "Chicago Piano" could run off a dozen highwaymen. As surely as the Gun Control Act of 1968 was passed to disarm the militant _non_-nonviolent blacks who were threatening to overturn the political apple cart ... As surely as the Brady Bill was passed because a certain variety of men -- well-represented in politics -- are mortally afraid to see women begin to arm themselves ... As surely as Bill Bennett and Bill Clinton's rifle and magazine law was passed because -- in this dangerous age of multiple assailants, when a single individual's only chance against a gang is often firepower, and the ideal weapons of self-defense are semiautomatic rifles and pistols -- both right wing and left wing socialists couldn't bear the humiliation of Korean store owners successfully defending themselves against their clients during the LA riots ... The Ithaca Auto and Burglar was stamped out because it threatened gangsters and hijackers who were the real constituency of the congressmen who outlawed it. Now Daniel Patrick Moynihan crawls dripping out of his butt of Malmsey to attack expanding handgun bullets with a proposed 10,000 percent tax, exactly as he earlier attacked small caliber cartridges. Why? Could it be because they're _effective_ for use by ordinary productive class people against the freelance thieves and muggers who, as a statist, Moynihan naturally identifies with? Write Moynihan. Ask him. And while you're at it, ask the sonofabitch why he shouldn't spend his long-overdue retirement behind bars, for having tried to deprive every man, woman, and responsible child in this country of their unalienable individual, civil, Constitutional, and human right to obtain, own, and carry, openly or concealed, any weapon -- rifle, shotgun, handgun, machinegun, _anything_ -- any time, any place, without asking anyone's permission. Ask him. *** Permission to redistribute this article is hereby granted by the author, provided it is reproduced unedited, in its entirety, and appropriate credit given. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: Re: Utah-Firearms/ROC project proposal: Fed buildings to allow check Date: 20 Mar 1997 16:40:49 -0700 I'm all for it and forward the following since it saves me typing it in myself. --included email--- I received a "franked" mailing today from Rep. Merrill Cook on a series of town meetings at the following times and locations: March 25, 7pm, Churchill Junior High Auditorium March 27, 7pm, West Jordan City Council Chambers March 29, 2pm (smart thinking), Salt Lake City Library April 1, 7pm, Whitmore Library Auditorium April 2, 7pm, National Guard Armory (12953 South Minuteman Drive) April 3, 7pm, Park Library Auditorium --end included email-- -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on (801)588-7200 | these topics, I'm sure I'm not | the one he would have express it. "Never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never -- in nothing, great or small, large or petty -- never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense." -- Winston Spencer Churchill Address at Harrow School, October 29, 1941 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Rep. Paul Introduces Semi-Auto Ban Repeal! Date: 22 Mar 1997 08:01:00 -0700 Rep. Paul Introduces Semi-Auto Ban Repeal! by Gun Owners of America 8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102 Springfield, VA 22151, (703)321-8585, fax: 321-8408 http://www.gunowners.org (Friday, March 21, 1997) -- Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX) has introduced a bill to repeal the Clinton ban on certain semi-automatic firearms. Rep. Paul introduced H.R. 1147 yesterday, and his office has asked GOA members and activists for their help in getting cosponsors to the bill. Here's what the bill would do: * Repeal the ban on more than 180 types of semi-automatic firearms; * Repeal the ban on large capacity magazines (that is, clips that hold over 10 rounds of ammunition); * Repeal the other draconian gun control provisions in the 1994 crime bill, which have helped to drive more than 50% of the gun dealers out of business.(1) ACTION ITEM: Urge your Representative to cosponsor H.R. 1147, the "Second Amendment Restoration Act of 1997." Call your Representative at 202-225-3121. Or you can also reach them at 1-800-962-3524 or 1-800-972-3524, but be prepared to let the phone ring a few times. The GOA website contains mailto: links for those Representatives who have e-mail. Always include your postal address when sending e-mail to your member of Congress. UPDATE on Chenoweth bill (H.R. 1009): You will remember that Rep. Helen Chenoweth (R-ID) has introduced a bill to fully repeal the Lautenberg gun ban which disarms millions of Americans for very slight misdemeanors, even those committed as long as 20 years ago. Her bill has 11 cosponsors -- the same 11 that cosigned the bill upon introduction. Many of you have reported that your Representative claims to be a cosponsor, even though we didn't list him in our March 12 alert. Be forewarned: your Rep. could be just feeding you a line. (Or, it could just mean that he wants to cosponsor the bill, but just hasn't gotten around to it. If so, then press him to do it right away.) The list we have given you is from LegiSlate, one of the premier Congressional tracking services. If your Rep. is not listed below, then he is NOT on the bill. Here are the Reps. who have cosponsored the bill as of 12:00 P.M. on Friday: Tom Coburn (R-OK), Barbara Cubin (R-WY), John Doolittle (R-CA), Jim Gibbons (R-NV), Virgil Goode (D-VA), Wally Herger (R-CA), John Hostettler (R-IN), Ron Lewis (R-KY), Ron Paul (R-TX), Joe Skeen (R-NM), and Don Young (R-AK). Correction: Our March 12 e-mail alert stated that H.R. 1009 "lays out 17 findings that help advance the pro-gun cause." In fact, two findings were merged together right before introduction, and thus, the bill officially contains only 16 findings. 1 The 1994 crime bill states that gun dealers can not operate a business unless "the requirements of State and local law applicable to the business have been met." This means the BATF now has arbitrary authority to use zoning laws to shut down gun dealers. And in fact, this has greatly contributed to the massive drop in federally licensed firearms (FFL) dealers. FFL's have now plummeted nearly 57 percent to the lowest level in 22 years -- for a total of more than 150,000 dealers who have lost their licenses. *********************************************************************** Are you receiving this as a cross-post? You can subscribe to our E-mail Alert Network directly. Address your request to goamail@gunowners.org and include in the body of the message either your state of residence or the word "all". If you subscribe by state, you will receive every federal alert plus alerts which are specific to your home state. Requesting "all" means you will receive all alerts generated whether federal or state in nature. That address should also be used if you wish to unsubscribe. *********************************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Love Letter to the Alphabet Soup Dudes Date: 22 Mar 1997 17:58:00 -0700 LETTER TO A GUN-GRABBER: THE WRATH TO COME By Victor Milan Exclusive to _The Libertarian Enterprise_ I'm here to deliver an indictment -- and a warning. You speak of "gun control legislation." What a world that conveys! Ah, democracy, the Great Insulator: it enables you to commit crimes without exposing yourself to physical or moral payback. You can impose your will on others at gunpoint -- which is rape, and also politics -- but without having to dirty your precious palm with an actual gun, not to mention risk actually getting hurt. Our society calls this "citizenship." I name it cowardice and hypocrisy. Let's get real: what you want is for mercenaries -- paid in part by wealth looted from gun owners -- to do your bidding by disarming us at gunpoint: kicking down our doors, stomping our pets to death, killing us and our families if we resist complying with your desires. That's about the size of it, isn't it, Mr. Democracy? Because we will _not_ flop onto our backs and let you stick it in. The gun owners of America will not disarm themselves. If you want our guns you must come and take them. I take for granted that you won't try this yourself: that would be exposing yourself to harm. And it would be, rest assured. Instead you'll send hirelings. Or should we perhaps call them scapegoats? For you imagine they can absorb your sins -- including the additional sin of exposing others to risks you're too craven to take yourself -- and leave you pure and safe and infinitely holier than Neil or Vin or I or scum of our ilk. We will not be disarmed peaceably. It is illegal. It is immoral. Ultimately it would be fatal. For if we are disarmed, our property and lives become entirely dependent upon the judgment and humanity of those who rule us. For some reason this puts me irresistibly in mind of the "medical" experiments carried out in Nazi concentration camps. That's what happens when humans are placed irremovably under the control of others. When the minions of the benevolent State can act without any fear of consequences. Don't imagine it's any different here. You obviously believe there are evil, slavering, kill-crazy freaks in the world -- it's how you see us gun owners, no? It's how Charles "Julius Streicher" Schumer and Morris "Goebbels" Dees portray us. Are you absolutely confident that _no one_ who resembles your vision of us will ever occupy a position of power in your disarmed America? Dream on. Consider Waco. Passing up opportunities to capture David Koresh on his fre- quent and predictable solo trips out of Mt. Carmel, declining an invitation from Koresh to come out and inspect his guns, BATF deliberately chose to stage a firefight at a church filled with women and children -- the flashier and bloodier, the better the media play. They were willing to kill kids for appropriations. Maybe you're still in denial over Waco. Maybe you think it's all "right wing anti-government hate;" the pro-government hate groups certainly want you to believe that. So maybe you're a good German and accept what you're told. But I challenge you: look into a mirror. Look into your soul. Do you _really_ want the men who made the plans, sent the troops, or pulled the triggers at the Seventh Day Adventist Church outside Waco to have absolute power over you? Would you like for the confessed felon from the FBI who destroyed an internal critique of the Bureau's handling of Ruby Ridge -- for fear that the man they had set out to destroy every bit as thoroughly might be able to use it to ensure himself a fair trial -- to have the power to poke his finger against your name on a computer screen and say, "This one dies"? _That's the power you want to give him._ Think it'll never come to that? You're probably right. Let's say you win: your mercenaries disarm us. _Then what?_ You have the votes, and the warm fuzzy sense of accomplishment. They have the guns. In which case you're _slaves_, mother******. As we are, so shall you be. You shall know the feel of a suppressed MP5 muzzle in your ear and a jackboot's **** up your ***. That's the price of being conquered, always. Though you will have raped us, plundered us, enslaved us, and killed us by proxy, by proxy we will have our vengeance. Through the agency of your own myrmidons. Your hash will be settled long before you have to worry about Michael Kahoe or Larry Potts in charge of the Bureau of Population Reduction. Yes, the world is becoming more "democratic." It's also filling up with strife. Your democracy is upheld by bayonets -- like all political power. The brute truth we see around the globe -- from Somalia, where US and UN troops disarmed the common folk and left them to be butchered in thousands by bandits, to central Africa where megamurder is brewing fresh, to Kabul where over a million unarmed citizens cower in shadows praying for deliverance from a few thousand religious cranks with Kalashnikovs, and that their deliverers don't exact a greater price than Taliban -- is this: only those with guns _count_. The rest are livestock. So hear my warning: fear the wrath to come. And it's not even _ours._ We'll never hurt you, unless testosterone poisoning actually induces you to get off your futon and try to grab our guns yourself. And we both know that won't happen. You are bringing on a civil war. _You_ are, because of your sick need to dominate, because you cannot bear to let others live who are different from you. You will not like the results. Because if civil war does come, you'd best hope we win. That's specifically we libertarian types; in the society we'd build, you would be perfectly free to spew your anti-gun hate: only if you tried to put your ideas into effect would you be at risk -- like any violent criminal. If the populists or conservatives dominate -- well, you'll just have to go along with whatever they want, because they have the guns and you have your self-righteousness, and guess which wins. But above all things pray _your_ side doesn't win. Because then you'll learn the hideous truth: your selfless servitors, those ninja-clad upholders of democracy, are really Jeffrey Dahmer with a Black & Decker, and you're an Asian teen. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Looking for Militia Bob Date: 24 Mar 1997 13:14:11 -0700 Please s let me know how I can contact you. Thanks, David Sagers ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: Letter to Editor Date: 24 Mar 1997 18:07:14 -0700 For those who may have missed it, there was a front page article in yesterday's Tribune reporting BYU's support of a law that would allow it to prohibit CCW on campus. I certainly support the right of private property owners to control access to that property, but am afraid this kind of statement from BYU may lead to a blanket prohibition of CCW at all schools and campuses State wide. Below is my letter to the Tribune editor. Feel free to use it for ideas and send your own letters as the Tribune seems to have quit printing mine. I'm going to watch the DesNews for any similar article and plan to send them a letter on the irony of the church, whose members where once disarmed by government troops and then left to the mercy of armed mobs in Missouri and whose founder, Joseph Smith carried a 6 shooter for self defense even into Liberty Jail (this gun can be seen at the church musuem west of temple square and has 6 barrels that rotate to fire), disarming their own members who have passed not only an FBI background check to CCW but also a bishop's interview prior to being admitted to BYU. If anyone wants to pursue that angle and needs some more info, let me know I'll try to dig out specific dates and locations. The church is not terribly open to lobbying, but maybe we can at least keep the restrictions private rather than becoming blanket. Be sure to include your s-mail address and phone if you submit any letters via email. Tribune--. Also, the Deseret News poll for this week is on wilderness designation. Surf over and log your opinions, . --include letter-- Charles Hardy xxx xxx xxx March 24, 1997 Editor, Salt Lake Tribune Dear Editor I'd like to comment on your front page article of March 23, concerning BYU policy on guns. As private property, BYU is, or should be, absolutely free to control access to their campus. That control does or should include the ability to prohibit the carrying of firearms or other weapons onto campus simply by posting signs to that effect at all campus entrances. If current law does not support this right, or is vague or conflicting, it should be amended. However, just as BYU would not ever attempt to impose their own admissions, conduct, or other internal policies on the other colleges and universities in this State, neither should their weapons policy be foisted upon the UoP, the UCMT, or any other institution through some legislative blanket prohibition. Any institution or business wishing to prohibit law abiding adults from carrying guns should be willing to post signs to that effect and then (as one video chain did) bear the economic consequences of those signs. Of course, before BYU posts those signs, they may wish to consider for whom they are making the campus safer by prohibiting law abiding adults from carrying guns for self defense. Not a single concealed weapons permit holder has ever been charged with a weapons violation on any campus in this State. So they don't seem to pose any danger at all. Criminals, on the other hand, will surely ignore signs and statutes as they always have. Only now, those criminals will be secure in the knowledge that every intended mugging, assault, or rape victim is safely unarmed and unable to offer any real resistance. It seems to me the safer this world is for criminals, the more dangerous it is for the rest of us. Sincerely Charles Hardy -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on (801)588-7200 | these topics, I'm sure I'm not | the one he would have express it. "When values are sufficient, Laws are unnecessary. When values are insufficient, Laws are unenforceable." -Barry Asmus ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: H.R. 1009 Date: 25 Mar 1997 12:02:52 -0700 This message is being sent to both utah-firearms and lputah as I think members of both lists are interested in this topic. Please be sure to trim headers on responses if appropriate. I have some good news, some bad news, some worse news, and some appalling news concerning H.R. 1009, Chenoweth's bill to entirely repeal the Lautenberg gun ban. The good news: I spoke with Steve in Cannon's office and Bryan in Hansen's office this morning. Cannon supports the bill and agrees that whatever is done, the law must apply equally to both private citizens and cops. Hansen has not yet read the bill, but is likely to support it in principle. I've preveiously heard from Cook's office that he supports it. The bad news: None have signed on as co-sponsors yet. Part of this is due to the current recess. They can't co-sponsor even if they want to until after they reconvine. Part of it is due to question on strategy. Realistically, the odds of this bill making past the president are about 0. Some are wondering if it wouldn't be better to chip away at the edges of the bill and pass what they can rather than work on what they can't. The worse news: Hansen's office claims to have received 8 to 10 communications concerning this bill. All have been in favor of repeal. Cannon's office has received some 700(!!) communications concerning this bill. All but about 12 have been in favor of keeping the ban in place. Fortunately, virtually all of those 700 communications favoring the ban have come from outside the State of Utah and appear to be part of some organized effort. Cannon knows these are not the views of his constituents, but is concerned he may be being set up and some anti gun group located in Utah will claim to know that his mail was "100 to 1" in favor of the ban or something similar. Regardless, there are more than 12 of us on this list and the phone call, or email is free. Please take a few minutes to email, call, or write our three reps and let them know how you feel on this issue so the numbers are more in our favor. In any communication, be sure to indicate you are a Utah resident--Mailing addresses and phone numbers on letters and emails, at least a phone number left on phone messages or simply stating you are calling from Utah if you get to speak to a live person. You can always ask for "Whoever is handling firearms issues for the Congressman." The appalling news: One reason none have co-sponsored is the NRA and other gun groups have not yet decided what they want to do and are suggesting a wait and see approach for a few weeks. The GOA is not included in those "other gun groups" as they have not made contact with our reps yet. Folks, it's no wonder we can't get pro-gun legislation passed when the NRA and her affiliates are so indecisive. With their historical pandering to the police community, I'm afraid the NRA may support exemptions for cops while leaving the rest of us twisting in the wind. One thing I think is clear, we are never going to repeal this thing unless the police unions are forced to work with us rather than having the luxery of working against us. Once cops are no longer being put out of work over this law, it will cease to be an issue and we will not get rid of it. Things to do: 1-Contact the three reps and let them know where you stand. Be sure they know you are a Utah resident. Emphasize the point that whatever is done, whatever is politically feasable, cops and citizens must be treated alike. If the bill can't be repealed this year, so be it. But then the cops continue to live under the law like the rest of us. I also make the point that my views and votes do not depend on NRA postitions. Contact info: Phone: 1-800-962-3534 and 1-800-972-3534 will get you the capital switchboard for free. Mail: Utah Congressman _____ House of Reps. U.S. Congress Washington D.C. will find them in plenty of time especially given the current recess. email: . They are also having town meetings over the next week or so. 2-If anyone has any contacts with the NRA, GOA, local affiliates, or other pro gun groups, please urge them to support a complete repeal and to contact our reps on that point. WAGC would be a great one to contact the reps on this one, both as an organization and as indivuals through an organized effort--Sarah? 3-In letters to the editor and whatever other pubplicity you can muster, make the point that the problem is not with guns in the hands of wife beaters--real wife beaters should not be running free in the first place. The problem is with a justice system that too often allows felony offenses to be ple bargained down and thus turns felony offenders lose on our streets. This is not just a gun issue. It is a States' and communities' rights (powers) issue. It is a civil liberty question. In fact, were it anything other than gun rights being treated in this manner, I'm sure we'd have the ACLU climbing all over it. Try revoking voting rights over a misdemeener, let alone retroatively, and see what would happen. Anyway, it only takes a few minutes to make a free call or send an email. In ony takes a few minutes and a stamp to send a letter. Let's at least make contact on this one. -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on (801)588-7200 | these topics, I'm sure I'm not | the one he would have express it. "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it." -- Santayana ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Let's Support The Gun Grabbers! Date: 25 Mar 1997 10:05:00 -0700 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Hey, gang! Here's a "public information campaign" that could really use our support! They even have an 800 number so we can ALL call them on their nickel and have them send us a neat-o information packet at their expense! The California Wellness Foundation makes grants like $15,000 to the Orange County Citizens for the Prevention of Gun Violence. Here's a little something I snipped from that group's web page: http://members.aol.com/stopgunvio/index.htm "We need to deal with gun violence as a true health epidemic that is costing us tens of thousands of American lives yearly. We need to move beyond the criminal justice system and the Second Amendment so that we may focus on the overall preventability of gun violence rather than continuously lamenting its deadly results." So: let's all call 1-800-64-YOUTH and receive our "citizen's involvement kits" on how we can help stop youth violence in our communities. Remember! It's Free! Everyone please call... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: TO A JAIL AFAR? Date: 25 Mar 1997 10:05:00 -0700 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Dear Americans: One of the events that led to the American war for independence was the fact that when citizens were arrested for what amounted to political crimes, those citizens were jailed without trial and sent abroad to prisons far from home. Well, it appears that practice has again appeared in Pennsylvania. There is probably similar legislation in your own state since this looks like an ACIR sponsored bill. The following piece was passed unanimously, without debate, in the Pennsylvania House of Representatives and took effect immediately. HOUSE BILL #86 INTRODUCED BY DALEY, HANNA, AND ROBINSON, JANUARY 28, 1997. REFERRED TO THE COMMITTEE ON JUDICIARY, JANUARY 29, 1997 AN ACT Amending Title 42 (Judiciary and Judicial Procedure) of the Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes, empowering the Governor to authorize the transfer of certain convicted offenders pursuant to outstanding treaties. The General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania hereby enacts as follows: Section 1. Chapter 91 of Title 42 of the Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes is amended by adding a subchapter to read: SUBCHAPTER D EXCHANGE OF OFFENDERS UNDER TREATY Sec. 9171. Exchange of offenders under treaty. Whenever a treaty is in force providing for the transfer of convicted offenders between the United States and a foreign country, the Governor or his designee, upon application of the Secretary of Corrections, is authorized to give the approval of the Commonwealth to transfer as provided in the treaty. Section 2. This act shall take effect immediately. END I asked those knowledgeable in legislative affairs if this means that if the US and Russia had a treaty to exchange prisoners, could an American arrested for, lets say a firearm violation, could he be sent there? The answer was YES> It does not specify the type of crimes, it does not specify whether the prisoner is or is not an American, nor does it specify whether the crime committed is a misdemeanor or a felony or even an infraction. It does not specify whether the crime is a federal or a state offense. All it says is that a treaty exist between the countries and that prisoners may be sent to the foreign jurisdiction. I sure dont like the looks of this one. Better check your own state legislature for this snake-in-the-grass. Mike I. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: H.R. 1009--addendum Date: 25 Mar 1997 14:22:42 -0700 I failed to mention in my earlier post on this topic that I was told one addittional hurdle for this bill before even getting to the president's desk is the fact that Speaker Gingrich _supports_ the ban and isn't going to help Chenoweth's bill along at all. The ambitious may want to contact his office after contacting our own reps. -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on (801)588-7200 | these topics, I'm sure I'm not | the one he would have express it. "I've got a firm policy on gun control. If there's a gun around, I want to be the one controlling it." - Clint Eastwood ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: Re: Letter to Editor Date: 25 Mar 1997 14:58:48 -0700 On Tue, 25 Mar 97 08:03:00 -0700, scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) posted: > >I saw that too, and was quite disgusted that BYU is in league with >Utahns Against Gun Violence. Have you considered also sending letters >to the First Presidency and to the BYU administration? I've thought about it, but for reasons I'm not really free to discuss here, think it best to hold off for at least a couple of weeks. Others here though should certainly consider letters to LDS church headquarters and/or BYU administration. As I said in my post, I can't imagine either is too apt to be swayed by lobbying, but perhaps their position could be better clarified as one in support of private property rights rather than one that is (at least now tacitly) interpretable as anti-gun. > >On a related topic, what is the legal consensus whether a church, >for example, could post a sign promising to prosecute anyone other >than a LEO carrying a firearm, concealed or not, into the premises, >and then successfully prosecute? If this is an option, why have none >of the churches or businesses (Did Blockbuster or Home Depot ever >prosecute?) bleating for a law availed themselves of it? I'm no lawyer, but I've heard it argued both ways. My personal opinion is that any private property owner should be free to abosultely control access to their property. That includes prohibiting any person short of a sworn LEO with a signed warrant from entering for any or no reason whatsoever. Of course, civil rights laws disagree if that private property happens to be a business generall open to the public. ;) In all seriousness though, BYU as church owned property would probably have no problems getting an arrest, indictment, and conviction for criminal trespassing on anyone who refused to leave after being requested to do so for any reason. Blockbuster and Home Depot, so far as I know, never even saw anyone carrying a gun to make a request to leave or file a complaint. That's not to say that no one carried a gun in. Only that (surprise, surprise!!) no one even knew they had the gun, let only was in any danger. I suspect there are two reasons businesses and churches would want a specific law. The first is that it eliminates market forces. Blockbuster dropped their signs not only because of their stated reason that it was unenforcable (no duh!), but also because they were singled out for boycott. Nobody wants to take the responsibility of posting signs that actually say to the whole State, "We don't support your gun rights" or "We don't trust you with guns." This is why one of the many bills that would have modified the permit said that guns were prohibited in churches unless the church specifically authorized you to carry the gun. The default then becomes no guns as someone would have to take affirmitave action to allow them. At the same time it prevents lawsuits from any church that may actaully support gun rights since they do have the ability to allow guns. We must be very vigilant to be sure that any bill which specifically allows the prohibition of guns in one area or another sets the default value as allowing guns and requires the property owner to take affirmitave action to prohibit guns. No church in this State is likely to ever post signs that say, "You and your guns are welcome." But neither are very many likely to go to the trouble of posting signs that say, "Your gun is not welcome." They may offer statements about what is "appropriate," they may make requests from the alter or in their newsletters, but I don't think they are going to post signs. It will be left, as it should, a private decision. This is very important because most bills banning guns from churches and schools ban them not just from the actaul property, but also ban them within a certain distance of said property--500 to 1000 feet is fairly common. That's creeping up on a 1/4 of a mile radius around every church, school, daycare, temple, synagoge, etc, etc, etc in the State. Similar bills introduced in Arizona include school crossings as school zones. Ever notice how many churches and schools and daycares and school zones we have in this State? Try driving to work without passing right in front of one, let alone a 1/4 mile within one. The second reason certain groups want a specific law rather than using existing tresspassing laws is that a specific law would likely cite a person with some kind of weapons violation. Current law would not necessarily do that. In other words, under current law, there is never going to be a demonstrable problem with people carrying guns into businesses and churches since even if there were a lot of people doing it and being cited, those infractions would only appear as tresspassing charges, the same as if they were leafleting without persmission or sleeping on the lawn without permission. But add a specific law and now everyone of those gets reported as a gun violation at a church. Also, it is one more crime with which to charge criminals who are doing something more than just CCWing. Of course we all know that the vast majority of such convictions WOULD be real criminals. If my gun isn't welcome at Blockbuster, I'll just rent elsewhere. If someone gets arrested for a gun violation at Blockbuster, it is probably because he pulled it out and tried to rob the place. Of course the antis will make every such statistic look like it was a CCW permit holder to prove there is a problem and thus lobby for tighter restrictions. Once again, I'm not a lawyer and the foregoing is little more than rational conjecture on my part. Bottom line as I see it, there is no problem with CCW, so the antis need to create a problem. -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on (801)588-7200 | these topics, I'm sure I'm not | the one he would have express it. "I've got a firm policy on gun control. If there's a gun around, I want to be the one controlling it." - Clint Eastwood ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sarah Thompson Subject: GOA Special Request Date: 25 Mar 1997 18:41:58 -0700 >Return-Path: angio@shell.aros.net >Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:30:31 -0500 >From: Gun Owners of America >Reply-To: Gun Owners of America >To: crfields@gunowners.org >Subject: GOA Special Request > > > Are You a Small Dealer Put Out of Business by BATF Regulation? > > > A reporter from The New Republic magazine is doing a story on >how the BATF has put small, hobbyist dealers out of business. If >you want to talk to him, call Steve Glass at the magazine: >1-202-331-7494. > > This request was posted on 3/25/97. Please call within a >week. > > > Sarah Thompson, M.D. PO Box 1185 Sandy, UT 84091-1185 http://www.therighter.com NOTE: NEW ADDRESS!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: GOA Special Request Date: 25 Mar 1997 18:39:00 -0700 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Are You a Small Dealer Put Out of Business by BATF Regulation? A reporter from The New Republic magazine is doing a story on how the BATF has put small, hobbyist dealers out of business. If you want to talk to him, call Steve Glass at the magazine: 1-202-331-7494. This request was posted on 3/25/97. Please call within a week. "It is an infallible rule that a prince who is not wise himself cannot be well advised"-- Machiavelli - The Prince. Qui desidererat pacem, prepaerat parabellum.-- Vegetius Qui non prepaerat parabellum, requiescat in pacem.-- Joe Horn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises Inc and Shire.Net" Subject: Larry Pratt on the Radio now and Cook tomorrow night Date: 26 Mar 1997 08:41:14 -0700 Hi All Larry Pratt from GOA is on KTALK right now (8:35 am Wed 3/26). -- Merrill Cook has his "Town Meeting" in West Jordan tomorrow night at 7PM in the WJ City Council Chambers at 8000 S Redwood Road. I am going to be there with a draft of my fed buildings law as well as HR1009 info. Let's get a bunch of us there! Who will be there? A caller to the show this morning where Pratt is on claimed that Merrill Cook won't sponsor or vote for HR1009 because domestic violence offenders shouldn't have guns (according to a conversation with a Cook staffer named RP). Boy does Cook need some education. So, who will be there? We should all meet. I am going to where my Bill of Rights VOID WHERE PROHIBUTED BY LAW tshirt. Chad Chad Leigh Pengar Enterprises, Inc and Shire.Net chad@pengar.com info@pengar.com info@shire.net Full service WWW services from just space to complete sites. Low cost virtual servers. DB integration. Tango. Email forwarding -- Permanent Email Addresses. POP3 and IMAP Email Accounts. mailto:info@shire.net for any of these. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Will Thompson Subject: Re: Dunblane vigils end tragically] Date: 24 Mar 1997 14:28:45 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6CF8471638F3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sent from wrong address last time, try again.... --------------6CF8471638F3 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <33317056.5311@phbtsus.com> Organization: Philips Broadcast Televison Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: "102062.2510" <102062.2510@compuserve.com>, 6mysmesa <6mysmesa@1eagle1.com>, "70274.1222" <70274.1222@compuserve.com>, agr , bmw , "Claire.wolfe.freedom" , davebres , drbraces , drgotww , dsagers , edgarsuter , gardner , gunflower , jbovard , jerry , jneil , keeva , Matti , owner-utah-firearms , rjtavel , sfbearcop , silbergd , Stonewall , utah-firearms , WAGC , wapette References: <3330F1E2@msm_smtp.orbit.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises Inc and Shire.Net wrote: > > >Alternatively we could ban all gun owners who are notoriously stupid as this > >on-line group regularly proves. > >A entire class of schoolchildren were killed by someone who was allowed to > >have a gun license. I'm not sure that those of you that have children who > >seem to be able to dismiss this tragedy so easily would be so happy if they > >were your kids that were massacred whilst in gym. > >The righter ? You're just very very sad. > >Please, all of you, stay on that side of the Atlantic and just continue to > >ruin your own country. > [Deletions of Chad's reasoned, rational and empathetic reply] > > Steve, your posting was very condescending. Calling people stupid and > talking down to them because you have an irrational fear that you cannot > deal with is condescending. I suggest you acquaint yourself with some > rational thoughts concerning guns, not fearful reactional thoughts. > Acquaint yourself with the body of supportable research that discounts the > notion of "gun control" as a way to stop crime. Learn the sociological > reasons that the UK has less firearms crime than the US. Become informed. > Stop being a reactionary and start being an agent of action based on > knowledge, reason, and logic. > > Chad > Steve, Chad is a nice guy who happens to own a gun. (or two) He seems quite willing to "turn the other cheek" and try and show you that not all gun owners are "fanatic wingnuts". I'm not so nice. Stupidity: Would that happen to have something to do with subscribing to a mail list concerning something you fear and loath, and then whining that you find the ideas expressed on the list "offensive"? I'd say that's as good a definition as any I've read recently. Coming on this list and calling me names and expecting me to "come round to your propah way of thinking" is an equally good definition. If my children were massacred whilst in gymansium, my anger would be focused on the person who did it, not on the tool the person used to do it. Getting angry at the bat someone uses to bash in someone else's head instead of the person with the bat, is yet another fine example of stupidity in my book. If, perhaps, said person had been found guilty of bashing someone else in the head with a bat previously, yet still allowed to purchase a bat, I suppose I would be angry at the barrister and constable who allowed him to purchase a bat. Being angry at the bat is stupid. Mrs. Thatcher had it right when she complained about the "nanny state". With all of your "mind your head" "mind the step" "look left" "rules of the park" etc, you seem to have come to the conclusion that no one is responsible for protecting themselves without the nanny first pointing to it and gently reminding you that your head needs protecting. Life has problems and dangers, Steve. You can continue to complain that life is "not exactly cricket", but that doesn't change the basic unfairness and danger of rising upon your hind legs. If you find this soooo discomforting, might I suggest you send the following: mail utah-firearms@xmission.com unsubscribe and then kindly, bugger off? Cheers Will --------------6CF8471638F3-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: 5 letters Date: 26 Mar 1997 12:57:55 -0700 This morning on KTKK (am 630) the #Preacher# called in and discussed a conversation he had with one of Merrill Cook#s aids concerning the repeal of the domestic violence gun ban (HR 1009). Jack Stockwell was the host and Larry Pratt, President of GOA was the guest. Cook is not supporting Chenoworth's HR 1009, rather he supports the Barr repeal. The only change Barr's repeal makes is to remove the retrospective provision. You will still lose your Second Amendment rights for a misdemeanor! Since the first of the year I have personally faxed 4 or 5 letters to Rep. Cook and called his office another 4 or 5 times. According to Helen at Cook#s office I am now the most active and vocal constituent. I am quite surprised to learn that 5 letters and 5 calls make me the most vocal constituent! In other words, it appears that most constituents don#t make much of an effort to work with and educate their representatives. If all it takes to bring attention to an issue is a few letters and phone calls, please get moving on it today. Letters are easy, especially if you receive any kind of alerts from GOA or NRA, then follow up with a phone call and basically repeat what you said in the letter. 60 million gun owners in America, 3 million members of the NRA and even less in GOA. Some gun owners are MIA. The Honorable Merrill Cook US House Of Representatives 515 Cannon House Office Building Washington, D.C. 20515-3808 (202) 225-3011 or (800) 872-8513 / (800) 962-3524 Local: 125 South State, Suite 2311 Salt Lake City, Utah 84138 Ph: 524-4394 Fax: 524-5994 Merrill Cook has his "Town Meeting" in West Jordan tomorrow night (Thurs) at 7 PM in the WJ City Council Chambers at 8000 S Redwood Road. Lets all show up and remind Cook that he was elected on a strong pro gun campaign, not as a luke warm Bob Dole moderate. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: Re: 5 letters Date: 26 Mar 1997 13:37:26 -0700 On Wed, 26 Mar 1997, DAVID SAGERS posted: >guest. Cook is not supporting Chenoworth's HR 1009, rather he >supports the Barr repeal. The only change Barr's repeal makes is to >remove the retrospective provision. You will still lose your Second >Amendment rights for a misdemeanor! In Cook's defense, this seems to be the approach the NRA is pushing right now. How can we expect our congressmen to support a gun bill if the self proclaimed voice of the gun owners doesn't support the bill? We can only expect that if lots of us tell our congressmen we do want them to support it and let them know that position is not dependant on NRA position. Maybe the NRA thinks Barr's bill has a chance and Chenoweth's doesn't, but there is no reason they can't urge support of both. Also, let's remember that this wouldn't even be showing up on the political radar scope except cops are not exempt and some have been put out of work. Removing just the ex post facto aspect may be viewed as the only inch we can get this time. Or one may consider that it will immediately allow all those cops to go back to work and thus remove police union support of a repeal. What about future convictions of police officers you ask? I'm betting you'll see almost zero cops ever charged or convicted of anything that might be considered "domestic violence" ever again. Instead of pleading felonies to misdemeeners, they will simply plea domestic violence to some sort of very general disorderly conduct. >I am quite surprised to learn that 5 letters and 5 calls make me the most >vocal constituent! In other words, it appears that most constituents don#t >make much of an effort to work with and educate their representatives. >If all it takes to bring attention to an issue is a few letters and phone calls, >please get moving on it today. It also means that a few people can have tremondous sway if they all contact on the same side of the issue. Letter, calls, and visits are needed. >60 million gun owners in America, 3 million members of the NRA and even >less in GOA. Some gun owners are MIA. I might say the NRA is MIA on gun rights. I might say it, but I won't so as to not offend anyone. > > >The Honorable Merrill Cook >US House Of Representatives >515 Cannon House Office Building >Washington, D.C. 20515-3808 >(202) 225-3011 or (800) 872-8513 / (800) 962-3524 > >Local: >125 South State, Suite 2311 >Salt Lake City, Utah 84138 >Ph: 524-4394 Fax: 524-5994 > >Merrill Cook has his "Town Meeting" in West Jordan tomorrow night >(Thurs) at 7 PM in the WJ City Council Chambers at 8000 S Redwood >Road. Lets all show up and remind Cook that he was elected on a >strong pro gun campaign, not as a luke warm Bob Dole moderate. > > -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on (801)588-7200 | these topics, I'm sure I'm not | the one he would have express it. "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers." -- William Shakespeare; Henry VI, Act IV, Scene II, spoken by Dick the Butcher. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WILL THOMPSON Subject: Re: 5 letters Date: 26 Mar 1997 14:09:48 -0700 Charles Hardy wrote: > > On Wed, 26 Mar 1997, DAVID SAGERS posted: > > >guest. Cook is not supporting Chenoworth's HR 1009, rather he > >supports the Barr repeal. The only change Barr's repeal makes is to > >remove the retrospective provision. You will still lose your Second > >Amendment rights for a misdemeanor! > > In Cook's defense, this seems to be the approach the NRA is pushing > right now. How can we expect our congressmen to support a gun bill > if the self proclaimed voice of the gun owners doesn't support > the bill? We can only expect that if lots of us tell our congressmen > we do want them to support it and let them know that position is not > dependant on NRA position. > Also, I would suggest an invite be sent to Janalee Tobias Gunflower@aol.com (WAGC) I know she's worked hard to gather signatures, etc. to repeal the Lautenb??? Act and is a buddy of Merril's. Dunno if Sarah or I can make it yet...moving's taking longer than we'd hoped, gettin' expensive... > > Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on > (801)588-7200 | these topics, I'm sure I'm not > | the one he would have express it. > > "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers." -- William > Shakespeare; Henry VI, Act IV, Scene II, spoken by Dick the Butcher. Do you have the context of that quote? -- Some scientists say that the major building block of the Universe is hydrogen, because it is the most plentiful element. But my theory is that the Universe is made up of stupidity, because it is more plentiful than hydrogen. -Frank Zappa ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pengar Enterprises Inc. & Shire.Net LLC" Subject: Cook in West Jordan tomorrow -- Get together beforehand for food Date: 26 Mar 1997 15:42:56 -0700 OK Tomorrow at 7pm is Merrill Cook's town meeting in West Jordan at 80th South and Redwood. A bunch of us are meeting at 5:30-5:45 for food and to talk shop and we will be at the meeting between 6:30 and 6:45. I believe there is a Boston Market or similar Deli like place across from the WJ City building. Meet there. Wear your urban camo (ie, tie, shirt, maybe a jacket or other respectable attire. Chad Chad Leigh Pengar Enterprises, Inc and Shire.Net chad@pengar.com info@pengar.com info@shire.net Full service WWW services from just space to complete sites. WWW Wholesale including virtual domains. Tango. PHP/FI Email forwarding -- Permanent Email Addresses. POP3 and IMAP Email Accounts. mailto:info@shire.net for any of these. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pengar Enterprises Inc. & Shire.Net LLC" Subject: US Forest service and Shooting in N Utah Date: 26 Mar 1997 16:07:39 -0700 >Envelope-to: chad@pengar.com >Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 12:40:45 -0700 >From: Neil W. Sagers >To: chad@pengar.com >Subject: Chad, >Encoding: 54 Text > >Chad, > >Would you take a look at the following and consider posting it to the >Utah firearms alert. > >---------------------------------------------- >U.S. Forest Service to Ban Shooting in Parts of Salt Lake, Davis, and >Weber County > >The Forest Service has made a proposal which would ban shooting >(target, hunting and archery) along a half-mile wide corridor next to >city limits from Salt Lake County to Weber County. The proposal >would also ban use of off-highway vehicles (OHVs). Public comments >are being taken until April 15. > >Noise control and accident prevention have been cited as the >reasons to ban all shooting. However, there have been few noise >complaints and no serious accidents ever reported from hunting and >shooting in the area. > >Forest Service spokeswoman, Patti Klein, claims support of local >governments, but is unable to name persons or localities. The Utah >Division of Natural Resources opposes the proposal because it would >interfere with efforts to manage local deer populations. The NRA is >also looking at getting involved in the fight. > >The proposal is touted as a model for future regulation of hunting in >Utah and other states. The underlying reason seems to be another >attempt by the Federal Government to close public lands and to >eliminate hunting and legitimate uses of firearms. > >If you value the right to hunt in Utah, your help is needed now. > >1. Call Patti Klein at 801 943-1794 and request an information >package. Let Patti know that you do not support her proposal to >close public lands and eliminate hunting near city limits. Ask her >respectfully to withdraw the proposal. Patti > >2. Call your elected officials and ask them to oppose efforts by the >Forest Service to close public lands to shooting and OHVs. U.S. >Senators and Representatives, State Senators and Representatives, >County Commissioners, Mayors and Utah DWR officials should all be >asked to oppose the proposal. > >3. Comment to the Forest Service and find as many reasons as you >can to oppose the closure of public lands to shooting and OHVs. > >Patti has apparently not been answering her calls and not returning >messages, so make sure her phone does not get any rest until the >proposal is withdrawn. Make a record of the times you called and >how hard it was to get in contact with Patti to build a case for >extension of the comment period. > >Neil Sagers > Chad Leigh Pengar Enterprises, Inc and Shire.Net chad@pengar.com info@pengar.com info@shire.net Full service WWW services from just space to complete sites. WWW Wholesale including virtual domains. Tango. PHP/FI Email forwarding -- Permanent Email Addresses. POP3 and IMAP Email Accounts. mailto:info@shire.net for any of these. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: [Advantage Rent a junk] Date: 26 Mar 1997 17:50:38 -0700 For those who rent cars... ----BEGIN FORWARDED MESSGE---- * Crossposted from: GUNS From last week: =C4 Area: GUNS=20 Msg#: 533 Date: 18 Mar 97 = 18:17:24 From: GARY WESTFALL Read: Yes Replied:= No=20 To: ALL Mark: = =20 Subj: Anti-firearms car rentals Just came back from Phoenix, AZ. I had rented a vehicle from ADVANTAGE through my travel agent. When I arrived I found out they have a=20 "NO HANDGUNS ALLOWED" sign. Those of you travelling to AZ might want to find another car rental agency that doesn't have such a=20 policy. I am informed by the local folks their policy is set at headquarters. Advantage Rent-A-Car may be contacted at: Mr. James Walker, CEO PO Box 5D San Antonio, TX 78217-8064 X-Posted to PRN, AZRKBA & !RIGHT2ARMS ----END FORWARDED MESSAGE---- -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on (801)588-7200 | these topics, I'm sure I'm not | the one he would have express it. What light is to the eyes - what air is to the lungs - what love is to the heart, liberty is to the soul of man. -- Robert G. Ingersoll (1833-1899) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises Inc and Shire.Net" Subject: Re: Cook in West Jordan tomorrow -- Get together beforehand for Date: 26 Mar 1997 22:17:29 -0700 >OK > >Tomorrow at 7pm is Merrill Cook's town meeting in West Jordan at 80th South >and Redwood. A bunch of us are meeting at 5:30-5:45 for food and to talk >shop and we will be at the meeting between 6:30 and 6:45. > >I believe there is a Boston Market or similar Deli like place across from >the WJ City building. Meet there. Wear your urban camo (ie, tie, shirt, >maybe a jacket or other respectable attire. > >Chad well, I drove by there tonight to see what there is and there is no Boston Market there... So meet at the West Jordan WINGERS right south of the 90th S and Redwood on the East side. 5:30-5:45 . We'll choose a place (WINGERs, Marquee, and some Pizza place) and meet face to face and plan etc. chad Chad Leigh Pengar Enterprises, Inc and Shire.Net chad@pengar.com info@pengar.com info@shire.net Full service WWW services from just space to complete sites. Low cost virtual servers. DB integration. Tango. Email forwarding -- Permanent Email Addresses. POP3 and IMAP Email Accounts. mailto:info@shire.net for any of these. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Veto of anti-gun legislation Date: 27 Mar 1997 08:46:00 -0700 WAGC take note! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- ListServer: fwolist (Free World Order) There is much more to the story than what is said in the following news clip. Doug *** Anti-gun group blasts Virginia governor over veto A major gun control group blasted Virginia Gov. George Allen Tuesday for vetoing a bill to bar guns from a county's youth recreation areas, but the National Rifle Association praised him and his understanding of gun laws. Handgun Control Inc., founded by former presidential press secretary James Brady and his wife, Sarah, said the conservative Republican governor had given in to the gun lobby. Allen vetoed Monday a measure that would have barred guns, knives and other weapons from teen centers in Fairfax County, Va. For the full text story, see http://www.merc.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=2106386-a02 Treason seems to be popular with Sarah Brady. We who love freedom should get the governor's address and write him letters of support. I will pass this along to WAGC to see if they can help us. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: [cartero@NETWRX.NET: ACTION: Order Waco matchbooks by this Wednesday.] Date: 27 Mar 1997 11:54:13 -0700 First I've heard of this, but thought some here might be interested... Forwarded from AZRKBA: ----BEGIN FORWARDED MESSGE---- >Return-Path: >X-Sender: caravel@mail.halcyon.com >Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 17:05:34 -0800 >To: lpus-misc@dehnbase.fidonet.org >From: Erik Hermansen >Subject: ACTION: Order Waco matchbooks by this Wednesday. > >Please read this announcement and pass along where appropriate. If you >repost the message to someplace non-"L"-ibertarian, then edit the message >so it only contains points of interest to your readers. Keyword search for >"Libertarian" and you'll see what I mean. >-- >GREAT AMERICAN SNUFF-OUT UPDATE > >Big thanks to all of those that ordered matchbooks! I was feeling a bit >silly--like I had a real boondoggle on my hands--until I started hearing >from you all. Also thanks for the imaginative cards and stationary--it is >good for my morale. The first case of 2500 matchbooks has been sold and >there is a real possibility of distributing a 3rd case for a total of 7500 >matchbooks. > >If I can get past the 4000 matchbook order mark by tomorrow, I will take >the leap of faith and order one more case. If not, then I will stay at >5000 and hope that this will be enough for everyone. (It's a bit like >playing Blackjack.) > >So if you have mailed an order yesterday or today, please inform me by >e-mail (caravel@halcyon.com) or telephone (206-362-6812) and let me know >how many you've ordered. If you plan to order, also inform me as soon as >you can. > >You may order as late as March 31, but I'm hoping that you can place an >order or at least inform me by tomorrow. See ordering info at end of >message. E-mail me for statement of goals and strategy. > >DISTRIBUTION IDEAS > >Show up at your LP supper club or other meetings and pass out matchbooks to >people. I imagine the average LP member knows about 5 people that think >the ATF/FBI are a bunch of jackbooted thugs, so without any hardcore >activism, I bet you could get 100 matchbooks effectively distributed. If >your meeting is not within the week of April 19, then print out this >message, take it to the meeting, and see if you can get some people >interested in ordering. (I am going to try this myself, but since I >haven't gone to any meetings for 2 years, they will all think I'm some >lousy jerk that only shows up to peddle matchbooks.) > >Gun shops--call ahead and see if the owner is interested in letting you >leave a couple dozen laying in the shop for customers to pick up. > >Conventions--Richard Lopez has offered to pass out matchbooks at >"Preparedness Expo 97" in Dallas, Texas on April 11, 12, and 13. This is >the right idea! Thousands of independence-oriented individuals wandering >around to get the message to. > >Colleges--I've spent some time petitioning in the local University District >in Seattle, and I believe that this is the best place to find idealists and >intellectuals. Look for bookstores, coffeehouses, student lounges. Staple >matchbooks to telephone poles (students are curious enought to wonder why >the hell somebody would do that). > >Other places? > >Now, if you guys really want this to pay off, then let's start talking >about some ideas for April 19 protest events. The matchbooks all have info >that points the reader to Gene Trosper's web page and a recorded event line. > >I have some ideas I will post on the Libertarian Activist list tomorrow. >I've been trying to come up with ways to make an interesting event that >will attract participants and even media attention. Ideas from you for >this would be great. If you are simply interested in participating in >protest events, but not necessarily committed, would you drop me an e-mail >to let me know? > >ORDERING INFO (Repeat from 3/18 post) > >In summary, each matchbook briefly describes the Federal onslaught at Waco >and gives instructions to mail the matchbook to Janet Reno. There is a >phone# to a recorded event line, and an URL to a Waco website maintained by >Gene Trosper. The matchbook is "Sponsored by the Libertarian Committee for >Safe Government". See full text at end of this message. > >I paid for the initial printing and am selling the matchbooks at-cost. Get >as many as you can handle and order AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, since possibly I >will be able to adjust my printing order up from the first quantity before >the press starts rolling--which means more matchbooks circulating around >carrying our message. If the price is keeping you from ordering as many as >you could distribute, let me know and I'll see what I can do. > >The deadline for orders is 3/31--but get them in sooner and more things >will be possible. > >Price: $4 per 100 matchbooks + $3.50 shipping (US Postal--United States only) > >Include: >- Check or money order made out to "Erik Hermansen" >- Address to which matchbooks will be shipped >- Phone# and/or e-mail for contacting you if needed > >Send to: >Erik Hermansen >1315 Madison St., #445 >Seattle, WA 98125 > >I won't give your name out to anyone. If I can't ship the matchbooks you >order, I will send you a refund, or not cash your check and notify you. > >You can e-mail me at caravel@halcyon.com (preferred) or call at (206) >362-6812. > >--- >Front cover text: > >The Great >American >Snuff-Out > >Back cover text: > >REMEMBER WACO! >On April 19, 1993, agents >of the US government >rammed & gassed the Mount >Carmel home of Branch >Davidians in Waco Texas, >killing 76 men, women, >& children. > >Inside cover text: > >Let those responsible know >that you remember. Mail >this matchbook to: >Attorney General Janet Reno >950 Pennsylvania Ave. NW >Washington DC, 20530 > >For info about planned >protest events: >(206) 362-6812 >http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/9119/waco.html > >Sponsored by the >Libertarian Committee >for Safe Government > > ========================================================= Do Freedom!!! http://home.utah-inter.net/don-tiggre/lrthp.htm ========================================================= ======================================================================== To subscribe: send a message to the LRT_list@sportsmen.net with the word SUBSCRIBE in the subject/topic field. Use UNSUBSCRIBE to remove yourself from the list. Questions/comments/problems? email: Not Moderated@sportsmen.net or listmgmt@sportsmen.net For info about this system and its lists email: info@sportsmen.net ======================================================================== via: Sportsman's Paradise~~Online 602-922-1639 - www.sportsmen.net ----END FORWARDED MESSAGE---- -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on (801)588-7200 | these topics, I'm sure I'm not | the one he would have express it. "Those rights, then, which God and nature have established, and are therefore called natural rights, such as life and liberty, need not the aid of human laws to be more effectually invested in every man than they are; neither do they receive any additional strength when declared by the municipal laws to be inviolate. On the contrary, no human legislature has power to abridge or destroy them, unless the owner shall himself commit some act that amounts to a forfeiture." -- Sir William Blackstone ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sarah Thompson Subject: Women's Firearms Alliance Date: 27 Mar 1997 12:49:47 -0700 Dear fellow gun enthusiasts and RKBA'ers, I am very pleased to announce the formation of the Women's Firearms Alliance, effective immediately. WFA is a 501(c)4 non-profit, lobbying organization committed to protecting the individual right to keep and bear arms. We believe that all living creatures have an inherent right to self- defense and that knowledge of self-defense empowers women in self- reliance and self-respect. Women's Firearms Alliance supports training in the safe use and handling of firearms as part of responsible citizenship. Through our lobbying efforts we strive to educate legislators, law enforcement officers and the public about firearms issues, particularly as they relate to women. Although our focus is on firearms issues as they apply to women, men are welcome to join and participate. We have several classes on personal protection and self defense for women scheduled for this spring. The first will be held on April 19 at the Lee Kay Center. The Women's Firearms Alliance unequivocally opposes the Lautenberg Amendment, and supports Rep. Chenoweth's HR 1009 to repeal it in its entirety. We plan to have representatives at the meeting with Rep. Merrill Cook this evening, as well as at the pre-meeting planning dinner. Although we believe in maintaining our independence and unique perspective, we are eager to work cooperatively with other pro- firearms groups. For further information, please contact: Women's Firearms Alliance 201 S. Main Street, Suite 900 Salt Lake City, UT 84111 (801) 535-4630 We will have our e-mail and Web page up and running shortly. In the meantime, you may address e-mail inquiries to me at gunmoll@therighter.com. Please note that in order to help form this new organization, I have resigned from the Board of Directors of Women Against Gun Control and am no longer formally affiliated with that group. We look forward to working with you and would appreciate your assistance in getting the word out about our new organization. Yours in liberty, Sarah Sarah Thompson, M.D. PO Box 1185 Sandy, UT 84091-1185 http://www.therighter.com NOTE: NEW ADDRESS!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises Inc and Shire.Net" Subject: Report on Rep Merrill Cook's Town Meeting in W Jordan Utah 3/27/97 Date: 28 Mar 1997 00:11:08 -0700 Several Utah-Firearms people and acquaintances of Utah-Firearms people and I met beforehand for dinner at a restaurant. We took a few minutes to get aquainted and then talked about 2 thing: Lautenberg repeal (HR 1009 [Chenowith] and the Barr bill) and my CCW in Fed Buildings bill. We agreed that the Lautenberg thing would be the talker in the meeting and that the other thing, my CCW in Fed Building bill would be presented afterwards and that we would start following up on that after he got it (this is where ROC comes in). We then went to the meeting. The first question asked was whether cook would vote for the Chenowith Bill. He said that he supported Barr. It was discussed for the next hour by everyone in the meeting almost and basically Merrill said he though Chenowith was DOA and that Barr had a lot better chance to get out. He would not co-sponsor Chenowith. He did say that he would vote for Chenowith if that was the one to reach the floor which he believes won't happen. Ie, he is not pro Lautenberg but sees no future for Chenowith. [Someone who was there please correct any misrepresentations I make]. The most important thing is that he agreed to be educated and to work with us on Amendments to Barr to beef it up to a Chenowith like bill. We have a committment from him to sit down with some of us before he goes back to DC on April 6. This is something each one of us needs to do wherever we are: contact our Rep. and try and convince them to work to amend Barr to keep cops and non-cops joined together sink or swim, and to remove the misdemeanor part. Cook posed the question about guns in the Capitol building and whether the 2A meant anyone should be able to visit the Capitol Building with a gun and he thought not (cannot blame him even though philosophically I think you should). I got up and asked him if he would support the disarming of visitors to the Capitol (assuming DC were to allow CCW) if there was a check station provided to safely disarm and if the Fed Government would assume all liability for the safety of people disarmed. He said he would. After the meeting I talked with him a moment and gave him a draft copy of my law (as written by me :-) and he said he would look at it and was glad to get it. So I am going to get some LSAS people to write it up the way a law should be in the law language baloney and submit it again and then I need everyone in the USA to write him and convince him to submit this as a bill. I will let you know but he has my ideas on the proposed law and I will follow this up. He also, after the meeting was over, gave his support again on getting himself educated on the RKBA and the facts and statistics and to allow us to work with him on Barr amendments to make it better. I need Lobo to contact me on this (Barr thing as well as my CCW in Fed Buildings thing) as well. Chad Chad Leigh Pengar Enterprises, Inc and Shire.Net chad@pengar.com info@pengar.com info@shire.net Full service WWW services from just space to complete sites. Low cost virtual servers. DB integration. Tango. Email forwarding -- Permanent Email Addresses. POP3 and IMAP Email Accounts. mailto:info@shire.net for any of these. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises Inc and Shire.Net" Subject: Addendum to: Report on Rep Merrill Cook's Town Meeting in W Date: 28 Mar 1997 00:17:51 -0700 Ok Folks There were several of us there. We can go again to the ones on Sat and next Tues Wed and Thurs but those who were already there cannot get up and speak again. He needs to see new faces. We need people to go to these meetings Merrill is having. We also want to know about you so we can support one another and agree to common tactics and strategies... He basically supports us and we don't want to antagonize him. He can be educated. We do need to impress on him the importance of this in a polite and "working together" attitude. A few people (not utah-firearms people) there in WJ tonight were a little antagonistic because he wasn't a strict 2A "guns everyone" person. This does us no good to be antagonistic as he is 75% or so on our side and willing to work and learn! Charles Hardy previously sent around this which he got from someone else [ my comments in [Chad: ]: --included email--- I received a "franked" mailing today from Rep. Merrill Cook on a series of town meetings at the following times and locations: March 25, 7pm, Churchill Junior High Auditorium March 27, 7pm, West Jordan City Council Chambers March 29, 2pm (smart thinking), Salt Lake City Library [Chad: This is a Saturday so not so bad at 2pm] April 1, 7pm, Whitmore Library Auditorium [Chad: 2xxx E and 7000 South ] April 2, 7pm, National Guard Armory (12953 South Minuteman Drive) April 3, 7pm, Park Library Auditorium [Chad: Taylorsville] --end included email-- ----- Chad ask me about @rkba.com email address! Show your support for the 2A and the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Chad Leigh Pengar Enterprises, Inc and Shire.Net chad@pengar.com info@pengar.com info@shire.net Full service WWW services from just space to complete sites. Low cost virtual servers. DB integration. Tango. Email forwarding -- Permanent Email Addresses. POP3 and IMAP Email Accounts. mailto:info@shire.net for any of these. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sarah Thompson Subject: Advisory: NJ gun lawsuit Date: 31 Mar 1997 14:25:04 -0700 >----------------------------------------- >ADVISORY FROM THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY >News from the National LP headquarters for >members & supporters of the Libertarian Party >----------------------------------------- >Watergate Office Building >2600 Virginia Avenue, NW, Suite 100 >Washington DC 20037 >Phone: (202) 333-0008 Ext. 226 >E-mail: 73163.3063@CompuServe.com >For information about the party: (800) 682-1776 >----------------------------------------- >March 29, 1997 >----------------------------------------- > > >New Jersey Libertarians lose lawsuit over tardy gun permits > > WASHINGTON, DC -- Libertarians in New Jersey have lost a >lawsuit to force local police departments to stop their foot-dragging >when issuing gun permits. > > On March 21st, Somerset County Superior Court Judge Edward >Coleman dismissed a lawsuit filed by Diane Adler, Chair of the >Libertarian Party of Somerset & Middlesex Counties -- and ruled that >police do not have to issue or deny gun permits within 30 days, despite >a state law which requires them to do so. > > Coleman said it would be contrary to the "spirit" of the >gun-control statute to require a police chief to "blindly" issue >permits within 30 days of receiving an application. > > County LP spokesperson John Paff criticized the decision, >saying, "[This] ruling basically gives police chiefs as long as they >want to issue gun permits. In our anti-gun society, it gives them too >much leeway." > > Adler had filed the lawsuit in August 1996 after waiting 34 >days without being granted a permit by Franklin Township police. >According to N.J.S.A. 2C:58-3(f), local police chiefs must issue a >"Firearm Purchaser Identification Card" within 30 days of receipt of >application, unless good cause for denial is present. > > Adler eventually received a permit on September 17, 1996 -- and >asked, "If I had not filed the suit, how long would it have taken?" > > At the court hearing, Franklin police said it took so long to >issue permits because of the lengthy FBI background and fingerprint >checks required to prevent "disastrous" consequences if a gun was sold >to a felon. > > But Adler's attorney Elizabeth Macron noted that her client had >applied for a gun for protection, and said: "Talk about the tragedy >that can happen if a woman who wants to be armed isn't." > > However, Superior Court Judge Coleman ruled that the state's >interest in keeping guns out of criminals' hands overrode Adler's >interest in having her permit issued within the statutory 30-day limit. > > Adler dismissed that argument, and said, "Criminals are not >going to go through this process to get a gun." > > Paff also expressed disappointment over the decision, and said >Libertarians had hoped that a victory would "pressure police chiefs to >issue permits more quickly" so other New Jersey citizens would not have >to wait as long as Adler did. > > Adler is now considering an appeal. > > "If funds are available, Adler wants to appeal the decision to >the Appellate Division of the Superior Court, and to the state Supreme >Court if necessary," said Paff. > > Despite the disappointing outcome, the case won the LP of >Somerset & Middlesex Counties considerable publicly -- and some >criticism. > > For example, the Home News and Tribune (East Brunswick, NJ) >called the Libertarians' defense of the Second Amendment "bizarre," and >editorialized that their legal "quest should be silenced." > > "I suspect that Libertarians in other parts of the country >don't realize how politically unpopular the right to keep and bear arms >is in 'liberal, free-thinking' New Jersey and how hostile the New >Jersey media is toward those who exercise those rights," said Paff. > > But Paff said Libertarians won't back down on their defense of >gun rights -- and will continue to publicly proclaim that Libertarians >"oppose all forms of gun control," and "believe that an armed citizenry >is essential to a free society." > >-- >The Libertarian Party http://www.lp.org/ >2600 Virginia Ave. NW, Suite 100 voice: 202-333-0008 >Washington DC 20037 fax: 202-333-0072 > >For subscription changes, please mail to with the >word "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" in the subject line -- or use the WWW form. > > Sarah Thompson, M.D. PO Box 1185 Sandy, UT 84091-1185 http://www.therighter.com NOTE: NEW ADDRESS!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pengar Enterprises Inc. & Shire.Net LLC" Subject: more on Forest Service etc. Date: 31 Mar 1997 15:52:12 -0700 Received: from WVC-Message_Server by wp.ci.west-valley.ut.us with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 14:38:28 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Yesterday an E-mail message alerted me to the following situation. ===================================================== The Forest Service has made a proposal which would ban shooting (target, hunting and archery) on Forest Service land along a half-mile wide corridor next to city limits from Salt Lake County to Weber County. The proposal would also ban use of off-highway vehicles (OHVs). Public comments are being taken until April 15. Noise control and accident prevention have been cited as the reasons to ban all shooting. However, there have been few noise complaints and only one incident reported several years ago from hunting and shooting in the area. No problems have been reported from archery. Forest Service spokeswoman, Patti Klein, claims support of local governments, but is unable to name persons or localities. The Utah Division of Natural Resources opposes the proposal because it would interfere with efforts to manage local deer populations. The proposal is set forth as a model for future regulation of hunting in Utah and other states. The underlying reason seems to be another attempt by the Federal Government to close public lands and to eliminate hunting and legitimate uses of firearms. Patti Klein is listed as the spokeswoman and can be reached at 801 943-1794 for information and information packages. I let Patti know that I do not support her proposal to close public lands and eliminate hunting near city limits. ======================================================== I called and talked with Patti Klein (943-1794). She said these measures were being considered because of safety reasons. Although she did not have know of any reports, details or general, about accidents or noise complaints, the Forest service believes these rules are needed to prevent what might happen. Patti also said that the Forest Service was working on this with the Davis County Planning Commission and Farmington City. She said that if I wanted to find out if there were any incidents or complaints I would need to contact the county sheriff's office. In other words, they didn't even bother to find out if there was a problem before making up new regulations. This decision is being made at the local level. She swore that Washington had nothing to do with this! Mike Sieg is apparently the decision maker on this one and you should direct you comments to him at the address below. I was given the old line about Mike Sieg being a gun owner and a hunter. Kinda' reminds me of Karen Shepherd claiming she believed in the Second Amendment. The forest service will be taking comments until April 15, 1997. Send your comments to: Mike Sieg, District Ranger 6944 South 3000 East Salt Lake City, Utah 84121 Chad Leigh Pengar Enterprises, Inc and Shire.Net chad@pengar.com info@pengar.com info@shire.net Full service WWW services from just space to complete sites. WWW Wholesale including virtual domains. Tango. PHP/FI Email forwarding -- Permanent Email Addresses. POP3 and IMAP Email Accounts. mailto:info@shire.net for any of these. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: [Church shooting] Date: 31 Mar 1997 17:10:27 -0700 Forwarded from AZRKBA. Pass along to anyone who thinks guns have no place in a church.... ----BEGIN FORWARDED MESSGE---- Southern Baptist Press news service. Deacon shoots would-be robber following morning service By Elizabeth Young APACHE JUNCTION, Ariz. (BP)--Four members of Crossroads Southern Baptist Church in Apache Junction, Ariz., ended up face-to-face with an armed gunman despite taking precautions while counting the money following the morning service March 16. The situation ended when deacon Bob MacMillan shot the would-be robber, Rusty Gabriel Rhynard, who was listed in serious condition immediately after the shooting and remained hospitalized March 27. Pastor Dale Buchman expressed dismay at how the church and its members have been portrayed by the media. Newspaper and television reports made it sound like the members were protecting the offerings at all costs, when, in reality, their lives were being threatened, he said. "The people did what the people needed to do," the pastor said. Following the service, MacMillan's wife, Gerri, and another woman went to the church office, where they locked the dead bolt lock on the door and closed the curtains before proceeding to count the morning's offering. Rhynard, who had attended the morning service, knocked on the door and said he wanted to pray with someone. MacMillan, who was closing up the building, went out another door and talked to Rhynard for about 25 minutes. When Rhynard became more and more agitated, MacMillan tried to place a call to the pastor and then called deacon Bill Hayes, who came back to the church from his home. While waiting for Hayes, MacMillan, who was feeling increasingly uncomfortable around Rhynard, went to his truck to get his handgun and told Rhynard he was getting his sunglasses. MacMillan had a permit to carry the weapon. Buchman estimated that in the area "80 percent of the people who go around the desert any carry a gun." When Hayes arrived, MacMillan left Hayes with Rhynard and went back into the church through another door to warn the women and call the police. Meanwhile, Rhynard pulled a gun on Hayes and ordered him to open the office door. Hayes explained the door was locked and he couldn't get in. He offered to give Rhynard the money, but the robber insisted that Hayes have the women open the door, which they then did. When MacMillan arrived in the office, Rhynard had his gun pointed at his wife's head. Upon seeing MacMillan, Rhynard swung his gun toward him, and MacMillan shot Rhynard once in the stomach. Rhynard staggered out the door to his car and started to drive away when he crashed. The church members slammed and locked the door and waited for police. "The money had nothing to do with it," Buchman said. Rhynard "wanted in where those people were." MacMillan "wasn't trying to be a hero," the pastor said; the church members were "fearful for their lives." Had MacMillan not acted as calmly as he did, the situation could have been much worse, Buchman said. The church "did what we should have done," Buchman said. "I don't see us changing anything in our procedures." Even banks with sophisticated security systems get robbed, he noted. ----- END ------- ----END FORWARDED MESSAGE---- -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on (801)588-7200 | these topics, I'm sure I'm not | the one he would have express it. "As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, ... the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear arms." -- Tench Coxe in "Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution", Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sarah Thompson Subject: Fwd: Oppose HR 85 the "No more Handloaders" bill Date: 31 Mar 1997 16:32:19 -0700 > Subject: Oppose HR 85 the "No more Handloaders" bill > Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 01:05:49 -0600 > Organization: Texas Networking, Inc. > > Please call your Congressmen and women, > > HR 85 the "Bombing Prevention Bill" by Rep. Louise Slaughter > would impose a $100 permit fee on anyone wishing to buy reloading > components. > > Kyle Odom > kodom2texas.net (replace 2 with a @ to return email) > > NO COMMERCIAL EMAIL PLEASE! > >---- End Forwarded Message ---- > > > >"It is an infallible rule that a prince who is not wise himself cannot be >well advised" > - Machiavelli - The Prince. > > Sarah Thompson, M.D. PO Box 1185 Sandy, UT 84091-1185 http://www.therighter.com NOTE: NEW ADDRESS!!