From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Shoe protest to symbolize U.S. child deaths by guns Date: 30 Apr 1998 18:56:00 -0700 Organization: Southwestern Bell Internet Services ****************************************************** 12:37 PM ET 04/29/98 Shoe protest to symbolize U.S. child deaths by guns By Grant McCool NEW YORK (Reuters) - Gun control advocates plan Saturday to display piles of shoes, some of them once worn by young victims of firearms, in a protest against handgun makers over the shooting deaths of thousands of children. Calling it the ``Silent March,'' demonstrators will take their cause to gun manufacturers in Massachusetts, Connecticut, Maryland, Virginia and Georgia with a list of 10 demands urging changes in the way they produce and market handguns. The main display of 5,285 pairs of shoes, some of them donated by relatives and friends of people killed in gun violence, will be in the historic district of Springfield, Mass. British-owned Smith and Wesson, the largest U.S. handgun manufacturer, has its headquarters near the town. The shoes will be laid out in a two-hour silent protest in the town square and then hundreds of demonstrators are expected to go to the Smith and Wesson plant and stand in silence with posters for a further 90 minutes, the New York-based founders of The Committee on the Silent March said. They said the number of pairs of shoes represented the number of children and teen-agers killed by gunfire -- including murders, accidents and suicides -- in the United States in 1995, the last year for which statistics are available. More than 36,000 people were killed by guns in 1995. ``Media reports on gun violence don't ask the question 'where does the gun come from?' It's as if we have a country full of bad kids who have guns ... And we can't do anything about it,'' said Tina Johnstone, one of the founders of the non-profit group. Johnstone's husband was killed by a 16-year-old with a handgun in San Francisco in 1992. Americans have become accustomed over the years to hearing about firearm murders, accidents and suicides, but at least five shootings in the past six months have focused attention again on children and guns. Plans for the ``Silent March'' had begun long before the recent spate of shootings. Last Friday night, a 14-year-old in the rural northwestern Pennsylvania town of Edinboro shot dead a teacher at a school dance and on Saturday a 4-year-old boy fatally shot a 6-year-old playmate in Greensboro, North Carolina, with a semi-automatic pistol he found in his grandmother's purse. Last month, an 11-year-old and a 13-year-old using handguns and rifles shot dead four students and a teacher at school in Jonesboro, Ark. In October 1997, two were killed and seven wounded in a shooting at a Pearl, Miss. school and two months later, a 14-year-old boy killed three high school students and wounded five in Paducah, Ky. Statistics gathered from government, academic and health care sources show that 50,000 children were killed by guns in the decade from 1986 to 1995, almost 3,000 more than the number of Americans killed in the Vietnam War of the 1960s and 70s. The Silent March group urges manufacturers to participate in preventing gun violence by making a ``sea change'' in their business, including installing locking devices to make weapons childproof, putting prominent warning labels on guns and establishing manufacturer-authorized dealerships. A spokesman for Smith and Wesson, which is owned by Tomkins PLC of London, declined to comment on the protest or the demands until a news conference the company has scheduled for Friday in Springfield, Mass. Similar protests are planned Saturday at Colt in Hartford, Connecticut; Beretta in Accokeek, Maryland; Interarms in Alexandria, Virginia; Glock in Atlanta, Georgia and Sturm, Ruger in Southport, Connecticut. A separate protest is scheduled for May 16 in Los Angeles, Ca., at Bryco, makers of the so-called ''Saturday Night Specials.'' Johnstone and fellow-activist Ellen Freudenheim helped organize a similar event in 1996 that brought 40,000 pairs of shoes on display in Washington D.C. ``The idea behind the shoes is to show the numbers, put a human face on the numbers,'' said Freudenheim. The group believes that gun manufacturers, like the tobacco industry, should pay some of the billions of dollars in medical costs incurred by treatment of gun wounds. Handgun injuries cost at least $1.5 billion a year, they said. They also want Congress to impose on firearms the consumer product safety regulations that cover less lethal products such as electric toasters, teddy bears and children's pajamas. REUTERS <@{{>< <@{{>< <@{{>< <@{{>< <@{{>< <@{{>< <@{{>< http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/bible.html [Real Audio] [We have stories to learn here] PSALMS:37 Deuteronomy 28:1-68 "The First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between church and state, but that wall is a one directional wall; it keeps the government from running the church,but it makes sure that Christian principles will always stay in government." --Thomas Jefferson, 1 Jan 1802, address to the Danbury Baptists "But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet to warn the people and the sword comes and takes the life of one of them, that man will be taken away because of his sin, but I will hold the watchman accountable for his blood." Ezekiel 33:6 (NIV) __________________________________________________________ "All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void." Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. (2 Cranch) 137 (1803) -------------------------------------------------------- "Where the people fear the government you have tyranny." "Where the government fears the people, you have liberty." +++++++++++++++++++ ><> +++++++++++++++++++++ "... God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ... And what country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure." -- Thomas Jefferson, Nov. 13, 1787, letter to William S. Smith, see Jefferson On Democracy, 20 (S. Padover ed. 1939). <@{{>< <@{{>< <@{{>< <@{{>< <@{{>< <@{{>< <@{{>< - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Truth New Threat to Law Enforcement Date: 30 Apr 1998 19:22:00 -0700 by WILLIAM KEMP minutemn@internetpro.net The Vigo Examiner WASHINGTON -- Reacting to recent efforts by law enforcement to infiltrate, prosecute, and disrupt their activities, a consortium of citizens' militia groups around the nation have announced a plan to rid themselves of individuals in their midst who are actually working for various federal and local police agencies. Their plan employs a relatively obscure but fairly simple technology, using computers to analyze tape recorded statements for stress levels. The human voice displays a natural frequency. If the individual tells a lie, added stress causes the natural frequency to shift very slightly, indicating that the statement is not true. It is anticipated that this method will gain wide acceptance. Plans are being made for group members to individually and voluntarily make statements of loyalty, to be analyzed by an independent contractor who has no knowledge of the identity of the individuals making the voluntary statements, providing a double blind test. Individuals refusing to submit to analysis may no longer be included in group activities. It is further planned that individuals who wish to make accusations against other individuals shall submit statements outlining the accusations for analysis, thus allowing a quick determination of the validity of the accusations. It is anticipated that accusers unwilling to offer their accusations for analysis shall not be taken seriously. Federal law enforcement has experienced much success in recent times by infiltrating and subsequently prosecuting what they allege to be right wing extremist groups which have burgeoned in recent years. These groups, referred to by government sources as antigovernment, or as domestic terrorists, and by the groups themselves as citizens' militia, constitutionalists, common law organizations, and various Christian organizations, have grown dramatically in the wake of events they see as evidence of government out of control. These events are exemplified by the killing of white separatist Randy Weaver's son and wife. Government agents wanted Mr. Weaver to become a confidential informant to infiltrate groups such as those known as Christian Identity. Mr. Weaver, a jury subsequently found, was entrapped in order to bring pressure on him to do the bidding of government law enforcement agents. Weaver refused to cooperate, and a major effort was mounted by the government to surveil his isolated Idaho cabin. Subsequently, his son was shot in the back and killed by U.S. Marshals; his wife was killed by a shot to the head while she held her infant daughter in the door of her remote Idaho cabin by FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi. Special Agent Horiuchi acted on orders from high-placed FBI officials to "shoot on sight." Neither Mr. Weaver's son nor his wife were wanted for any violation. Special Agent Horiuchi was charged by Idaho authorities with manslaughter in the case, and a federal court has appropriated jurisdiction. The government is defending Horiuchi, and many believe that the federal court will throw out the charges against him. This event was followed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) disastrous assault on the Seventh Day Adventist church complex near Waco, Texas, following the infiltration of the church community by an agent of the ATF. This event began with ATF forces arriving at the church complex en masse, allegedly to serve a "knock" search warrant (where the warrant is to be served by knocking on the door of the building to be searched). However, ATF brought no warrant to the site, and a major gun fight erupted, with ATF suffering twenty or more casualties, the loss of two helicopters, and was routed from the scene. A jury subsequently absolved those inside the church complex who survived the initial assault by ATF, and the final assault by the FBI using tanks and poison gas, of homicide charges, declaring the actions to be self defense and therefore justifiable. In the meantime, by law enforcement's own admission, the use of confidential informants and other infiltration agents of law enforcement has continued unabated, strongly reminiscent of the FBI's COINTELPRO operations declared unconstitutional some years ago. This has resulted in many prosecutions of individuals for statutory violations which carry major prison sentences. This major effort by government to place individuals under false colors into citizens' organizations has resulted in major disruption of their activities, and a great deal of suspicion and "finger pointing" in their ranks. Many have been brought to the brink of complete dissolution. The plans to ascertain individuals of questionable loyalty and intentions threatens to become a major stumbling block for law enforcement. Law enforcement officials, apprised of these developments, are greatly disturbed. Speaking on condition of anonymity, one related "This is disastrous. Our entire effort has been to place infiltrators in these groups, and the loss of these infiltrators will require us to completely revamp our efforts. Because there is no overt manifestation of criminal intent by these groups, this could completely remove us from their inner workings. When asked of other ramifications of this approach, the official was even more distressed. "As you know, most of the people we prosecute are accused of so-called victimless, or statutory, crimes. Since there is no complaining party for these crimes, we are required to put secret agents inside the general population, who can ferret out these activities. If these agents can be identified by a cheap, quick, and simple method, our efforts could be halted. We will not be able to place agents, or coerce individuals into acting in our interests, if they know that they can be so easily discovered. If people implement these plans on a wide scale, our efforts against ownership of illegal firearms and all sorts of other illegal activities will be crippled." He continued: "We use this stress analysis ourselves, to great benefit, and there are laws against individuals using it. But the laws against individual use are inoperable when performed with permission of those being analyzed. If our agents voluntarily submit to analysis, they will be found out. If they do not submit, they will be ostracized-- in either case, they are no longer useful to us. We will be required to expend a great deal of effort at surveillance, phone taps and mail intercepts. There are simply too many people to watch on an effective basis, and when we start poking around without warrants, we will soon be forced to almost completely halt our activities. We'll have to wait until someone commits a crime, and then try to find out who did it. In the case of drugs, firearms, gambling, and the like, we will NEVER find out, for there will be no crime that we can even know occurred." Another official was even more distressed, however, when he anticipated other uses of the stress analysis technology. "The worst of this isn't even related to law enforcement. If people start analyzing statements of public officials, judges and legislators and candidates for office, the outcome will be chilling. Every politician will know that his statements will be subject to scientific scrutiny, his answers to questions will be quickly and widely known as truth or not, and the confidence of people in government will be greatly eroded." He continued "It wouldn't surprise me if most politicians simply quit rather than subject themselves to this, and the only people who will run for office will be those who have no experience in politics and government, and these folks are not likely to continue the policies which have brought us this far. It is illegal to analyze people without their permission, but it is easy enough to see that with this genie out of the bottle, there's no way that we can keep people from finding out the truth." h - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Truth New Threat to Law Enforcement Date: 30 Apr 1998 19:25:00 -0700 Clipped from previous post: http://www.Vigo-Examiner.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Incident on Long Island Date: 01 May 1998 01:31:51 -0600 Dear NBC: I noticed that there is no mention of the upcoming movie "Incident on Long Island" on your Web page. I hope that means that you have decided not to air this show. Obviously, I haven't seen the movie in question. But I am familiar with both Rep. McCarthy and Ms. Streisand and their irrational and prejudiced hatred of firearms, so I think I can rationally conclude that "Incident" will be an extremely biased piece of anti-gun propaganda. You do, of course, have the right to show whatever nonsense you choose. However, apart from the firearms issue, Rep. McCarthy is currently running for Congress. I trust you will be willing to produce a feature film about each of her opponents, utilizing the skill of your top producers to promote their political agendas as well. In the meantime, please be aware that should you show "Incident on Long Island" as scheduled, or at any future time, I will boycott each and every sponsor, and encourage everyone I know to do the same. You should also know that I do not fit your stereotype of a marginalized, sub-human, poorly-educated "gun nut". I'm a well-educated retired physician and writer, and I'm not a member of the NRA. As for your sponsors, I don't yet know who they are. But you, and they, should know that I'm planning on buying a vehicle in the next three months, I travel frequently both by car and by air, I dine out, I drink beerand soft drinks on occasion, I make long distance phone calls, I have children and pets, I buy insurance, do laundry, shop for groceries, plan vacations, run a household as well as a business, and make all decisions regarding office furniture, equipment and services. I also keep my word. Sincerely, Sarah Thompson, M.D. Sandy, UT - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: A request from you... -Forwarded Date: 01 May 1998 08:10:51 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BD74AB.120E5240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have studied the issues and the candidates for State Senate (Bob = Bennett and Hartley Anderson) and I am whole heartedly in support of = Hartley Anderson. He is a Constitutional Conservative in the Tradition = of the Founding Fathers. I am a state delegate and am going to cast my = vote for Hartley. Please contact any State Delegates you know and ask = them to support Hartley. Bob Bennett is a good man, but we have too many = good men in Washington that aren't making any difference, don't vote = right, and don't understand the Proper Role of Government. If Bob = understands it, he has chosen not to stand up for it. Please cast your votes and tell as many state delegates as you can to = cast their votes for Hartley Anderson. On the same but different note, I would like to make another suggestion. = I am not endorsing Jeremy Friedbaum (against Chris Cannon) for U.S. = Congress, but I don't believe it's good for any of us to have an = unopposed candidate (Chris Cannon). If you are a Utah County delegate I = ask you to please vote for Jeremy at the convention (please tell other = delegates the same). This will assure that Chris will be forced into a = primary and he will have to address the issues (debates, etc.). I am a = county delegate and I'm going to vote for Jeremy for this reason if = nothing else. Thanks for your time, Cullen - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Re: NBC -Forwarded Date: 01 May 1998 08:12:30 -0700 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Fri, 01 May 1998 03:28:25 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id FAA07642; Fri, 1 May 1998 05:26:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma007493; Fri May 1 05:22:39 1998 Message-Id: <9805010927.0hrj@xpresso.seaslug.org> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: noban@xpresso.seaslug.org Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list On Apr 30, TSBench wrote: >In a message dated 98-04-30 18:23:54 EDT, noban@xpresso.seaslug.org writes: > ><< >A list of sponsors will be circulated immediately after the May > >3 broadcast. Efforts to ascertain sponors in advance are still > >being made.>>> > >Just to make a suggestion. Most of the network spots have been sold during the >so-called 'up-front' season, so even if they all pull out of the show, pretty >unlikely, NBC is still going to get their financial committment for the year, >just by dumping the spots into unsold slots in other shows in order to make up >any audience guarantees (bear in mind that the big heavy hitting advertising >agencies buy time using various formulas and getting all kinds of 'deals' and >'packages'.) > >Were you can have a real immediate impact at the local level, is find out who >the "local" sponsors are and go after them with your message. These are the >folks who buy the local 'spot' advertising in the individual programs, and >where the stations make a lot of their money. Look, whatever car manufacturers >run ads on the network, they are going to sell X millions of automobiles this >year whether you buy one or not. >But, let Joe's Ford down on Main Street know that your next three automobiles >will be bought at Tom's Ford on Washington Street, and you'll get Joe's >attention real fast. > >And, remember that the networks are scared shitless of the affiliates, because >that is what makes them a network. And with the competition from Fox, UPN, WB, >etc >the last thing they are looking forward to at the annual affiliates meeting is >some bullshit general manager bitching about how being one of their affiliates >is costing him local dollars. > >Like the tree huggers say, Think Globally, Act Locally. It works, and with >very little lag time. > >Regards, >TSB Good points all. We've been doing this for some time now, and with some success in the list boycott dept., with Denny's et al, so this is more of same at the Local Level. My point though, is that a lot of folks read various news groups at all levels, and we could hit them shotgun style through the proposed method. The main msg being, "that there's lots of folks out there who care about (X), and why aggravate them by supporting programming or other stuff that gets them miffed at you in the first place?" Counter Programming for the Politically Correct/Robotically Inclined, if you will. Seems like it ought to work..... -- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: [governor@state.ut.us: Re: [[The Real Lesson of the School Shootings - WSJ])]]] Date: 01 May 1998 11:14:50 -0600 I received the following reply from Governor Leavitt's email address. Note the typical, "I support the 2nd amendment, but guns don't belong in all these different places" reponse. My initial email to him is below. Put this in the "Don't confuse me with facts" catagory. Also note the next mesage from me. ----BEGIN FORWARDED MESSGE---- X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Length: 6897 Thank you for your letter regarding the issue of concealed weapons. = I appreciate your taking the time to express your feelings. While I firmly believe in our 2nd Amendment rights, I do not = believe those rights trump private property rights of others. I do not = believe schools or churches are appropriate places for firearms. In = addition, I believe we should look at private property rights in relationsh= ip to our concealed weapons law.=20 As Governor, I represent the citizens of Utah. This process = requires the input of concerned people like you who are willing to = participate. Your ideas suggestions and opinions are vital to an = effective government and I appreciate your involvement. >>> Charles Hardy 03/27 4:05 PM >>> From today's (Friday 27 March 1998) edition of the Wall Street Journal, page A14, lower, right-hand section. Passed along for educational purposes. ----BEGIN FORWARDED MESSGE---- By JOHN R. LOTT JR. This week's horrific shootings in Arkansas have, predictably, spurred calls for more gun control. But it's worth noting that the shootings occurred in one of the few places in Arkansas where possessing a gun is illegal. Arkansas, Kentucky and Mississippi--the three states that have had deadly shootings in public schools over the past half-year--all allow law-abiding adults to carry concealed handgun for self-protection, except in public schools. Indeed, federal law generally prohibits guns within 1,000 feet of a school. Gun prohibitionists concede that banning guns around schools has not quite worked as intended--but their response has been to call for more regulations of guns. Yet what might appear to be the most obvious policy may actually cost lives. When gun-control laws are passed, it is law-abiding citizens, not would-be criminals, who adhere to them. Obviously the police cannot be everywhere, so these laws risk creating situations in which the good guys cannot defend themselves from the bad ones. Consider a fact hardly mentioned during the massive news coverage of the October 1997 shooting spree at a high school in Pearl, Miss.: An assistant principal retrieved a gun from his car and physically immobilized the gunman for a full 41/2 minutes while waiting for the police to arrive. The gunman had already fatally shot two students (after earlier stabbing his mother to death). Who knows how many lives the assistant principal saved by his prompt response? Allowing teachers and other law-abiding adults to carry concealed handguns in schools would not only make it easier to stop shootings in progress. It could also help deter shootings from ever occurring. Twenty-five or more years ago in Israel, terrorists would pull out machine guns in malls and fire away at civilians. However, with expanded concealed-handgun use by Israeli citizens, terrorists soon found the ordinary people around them pulling pistols on them. Suffice it to say, terrorists in Israel no longer engage in such public shootings--they have switched to bombing, a tactic that doesn't allow the intended victims to respond. The one recent shooting of schoolchildren in Israel further illustrates these points. On March 13, 1997, seven seventh- and eighth-grade Israeli girls were shot to death by a Jordanian soldier while they visited Jordan's so-called Island of Peace. The Los Angeles Times reports that the Israelis had "complied with Jordanian requests to leave their weapons behind when they entered the border enclave. Otherwise, they might have been able to stop the shooting, several parents said." Together with my colleague William Landes, I have studied multiple-victim public shootings in the U.S. from 1977 to 1995. These were incidents in which at least two people were killed or injured in a public place; to focus on the type of shooting seen in Arkansas we excluded shootings that were the byproduct of another crime, such as robbery. The U.S. averaged 21 such shootings per year, with an average of 1.8 people killed and 2.7 wounded in each one. We examined a whole range of different gun laws as well as other methods of deterrence, such as the death penalty. However, only one policy succeeded in reducing deaths and injuries from these shootings--allowing law-abiding citizens to carry concealed handguns. The effect of "shall-issue" concealed handgun laws--which give adults the right to carry concealed handguns if they do not have a criminal record or a history of significant mental illness--has been dramatic. Thirty-one states now have such laws. When states passed them during the 19 years we studied, the number of multiple-victim public shootings declined by 84%. Deaths from these shootings plummeted on average by 90%, injuries by 82%. Higher arrest rates and increased use of the death penalty slightly reduced the incidence of these events, but the effects were never statistically significant. With over 19,600 people murdered in 1996, those killed in multiple victim public shootings account for fewer than 0.2% of the total. Yet these are surely the murders that attract national as well as international attention, often for days after the attack. Victims recount their feelings of utter helplessness as a gunman methodically shoots his cowering prey. Unfortunately, much of the public policy debate is driven by lopsided coverage of gun use. Tragic events like those in Arkansas receive massive news coverage, as they should, but discussions of the 2.5 million times each year that people use guns defensively--including cases in which public shootings are stopped before they happen--are ignored. Dramatic stories of mothers who prevented their children from being kidnapped by carjackers seldom even make the local news. Attempts to outlaw guns from schools, no matter how well meaning, have backfired. Instead of making schools safe for children, we have made them safe for those intent on harming our children. Current school policies fire teachers who even accidentally bring otherwise legal concealed handguns to school. We might consider reversing this policy and begin rewarding teachers who take on the responsibility to help protect children. Mr. Lott, a fellow at the University of Chicago School of Law, is the author of "More Guns, Less Crime," forthcoming in early May from the University of Chicago Press. ----END FORWARDED MESSAGE---- --=20 Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. A camel is a horse designed by a committee and an elephant is a mouse built to military specifications." -- from page 321 of "Cryptoanalysis for Microcomputers" by Caxton C. Foster (University of Massachusetts), Hayden Book Co. Inc., 1982. ----END FORWARDED MESSAGE---- -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by rule of construction be conceived to give the Congress the power to disarm the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some general pretense by a state legislature. But if in blind pursuit of inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be appealed to as a restraint on both." -- William Rawle, 1825; considered academically to be an expert commentator on the Constitution. He was offered the position of the first Attorney General of the United States, by President Washington. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: [governor@state.ut.us: Re: [Vin_Suprynowicz@lvrj.com: April 26 column -- Swiss Date: 01 May 1998 11:15:51 -0600 Different message to the governor--same reply. :) This guy has got to be defeated in two years. ----BEGIN FORWARDED MESSGE---- X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 militia] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Length: 12184 Thank you for your letter regarding the issue of concealed = weapons. I appreciate your taking the time to express your feelings. While I firmly believe in our 2nd Amendment rights, I do not = believe those rights trump private property rights of others. I do not = believe schools or churches are appropriate places for firearms. In = addition, I believe we should look at private property rights in relationsh= ip to our concealed weapons law.=20 As Governor, I represent the citizens of Utah. This process = requires the input of concerned people like you who are willing to = participate. Your ideas suggestions and opinions are vital to an = effective government and I appreciate your involvement. >>> Charles Hardy 04/19 2:25 AM >>> Dear Governor This article contains some very interesting and timely information I hope you will read and consider. ----BEGIN FORWARDED MESSGE---- FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATED APRIL 26, 1998 THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz 'As long as a man has another cartridge or hand weapon to use, he does not yield' Those who would blithely abandon the greatest safeguard of liberty -- the right of the individual citizen to keep and bear military-style arms = -- aren't real strong on consistency. Aiming to gradually erode the quality of arms we have "permission" to bear -- back to the level of the muzzle-loading flintlock, if not the slingshot -- they have been disingenuously mewing for 60 years that they have no objection to arms "for which there is a legitimate sporting use." Of course, the Constitution says nothing about hunting or skeet = shooting. Rather, it says we must be allowed to keep our arms -- no "infringement" whatsoever, no tax, no registration, no "application for permit" -- = because the citizens constitute the militia, the most powerful armed force in any free state. The gun-grabbers sneer that this is an out-of-date notion, that a bunch of farmers with deer rifles could hardly stand up to the 82nd Airborne ... let along a Chinese invasion. But the logical conclusion of that argument is surely that we should encourage law-abiding citizens to keep machine guns and rocket-launchers = in the closet ... not ban AK-47s, with or without pistol grips and bayonet lugs. The victim disarmament extremists (those who would disarm law-abiding rape victims, but not their assailants, who ignore all such laws) ridicule this as the sheerest homicidal macho fantasy -- no modern nation has ever thrown out a tyrant by the simple expedient of the common folk rising up with their personal rifles, nor does any civilized nation today allow its citizens to keep machine guns at home. Wrong and wrong. Try placing a long-distance call to the American military governor of Vietnam, or the Soviet military governor of Afghanistan, to ask them how easy it was to suppress a nation of armed peasants. And as to the advisability of "allowing" citizen militias to keep modern military arms with them at home -- yes, Sarah, the kind "designed for no purpose but to kill large numbers of people" -- we turn to Virginia attorney and Second Amendment expert Stephen P. Halbrook, author of the = new book "Target Switzerland: Swiss Armed Neutrality in World War II," due = this spring from Sarpedon Press. Writing in the January 1998 edition of the excellent magazine "Chronicles," Mr. Halbrook points out that "Since the origins of the Swiss Confederation in 1291, it has been the duty of every male Swiss citizen to be armed and to serve in the militia. Today, that arm is an 'assault rifle,' which is issued to every Swiss male and which must be kept in the home. During Germany's Third Reich (1933-1945), that arm was a bolt-action repeating rifle, which was highly effective in the hands of Switzerland's many sharpshooters. "Americans of the wartime generation were familiar with the fact that brave and armed little Switzerland stood up to Hitler and made him blink. As a map of Europe in 1942 shows, the Nazis had swallowed up most of everything on the continent but this tiny speck that Hitler called 'a pimple on the face of Europe.' The Fuhrer boasted that he would be 'the butcher of the Swiss,' but the Wehrmacht was dissuaded by a fully armed populace in the Alpine terrain. ... # # # "The Swiss federal shooting festival, which remains the largest rifle competition in the world, was held in Luzern in June 1939. Hitler's takeover of Austria and Czechoslovakia was complete, both countries had been surrendered by tiny political elites who guaranteed that there would be no resistance. Swiss President Philipp Etter spoke at the festival, stressing that something far more serious than sport was the purpose of their activity. His comments demonstrated the connection between national defense and the armed citizen: " 'There is probably no other country that, like Switzerland, gives the soldier his weapon to keep in the home. The Swiss always has his rifle at hand. It belongs to the furnishings of his home. ... That corresponds to ancient Swiss tradition. As the citizen with his sword steps into the ring in the cantons which have the Landsgemeinde (government by public = meeting), so the Swiss soldier lives in constant companionship with his rifle. He knows what that means. With this rifle, he is liable every hour, if the country calls, to defend his hearth, his home, his family, his birthplace. The weapon is to him a pledge and sign of honor and freedom. The Swiss = does not part with his rifle.' Mr. Halbrook continues: "On September 1, 1939, Hitler launched World War II by attacking Poland. Within a day or two, Switzerland had about half a million militiamen mobilized out of a population of just over four = million. General Henri Cuisan, commander in chief of the Swiss militia, responded with Operations Order No. 2: " 'At the border and between the border and army position, the border troops and advance guard persistently delay the advance of the enemy. The garrisons at the border and between the border and the works and positions making up the defensive front continue resistance up to the last cartridge,= even if they find themselves completely alone.' "This astonishing order was the opposite of the policies of the other European countries, which either surrendered to Hitler without a fight or surrendered after a brief resistance. For example, in April 1940, = Denmark's king surrendered the country after a meeting with the Nazis and instructed his forces not to resist. Norway resisted, although 'unlike Switzerland' = it had no armed populace and was ill- prepared for combat. "In response to the invasions of small neutral countries, Switzerland issued its 'directions concerning the conduct of the soldiers not under arms in event of attack.' Intended as a warning to Germany, it was pasted on walls all over the country. It prescribed the reaction against surprise attack and against the fifth column as follows: " 'All soldiers and those with them are to attack with ruthlessness parachutists, airborne infantry and saboteurs. Where no officers and noncommissioned officers are present, each soldier acts under exertion of all powers of his own initiative.' "This command for the individual to act on his own initiative was an ancient Swiss tradition which reflected the political and military leadership's staunch confidence in the ordinary man. This command was possible, of course, only in a society where every man had his rifle at home. " 'Under no condition,' the order continued, 'would any surrender be forthcoming, and any pretense of a surrender must be ignored: If by radio, leaflets or other media any information is transmitted doubting the will = of the Federal Council or of the Army High Command to resist an attacker. = this information must be regarded as the lies of enemy propaganda. Our country will resist aggression with all means in its power and to the death.' ... # # # "France collapsed in June, 1940 after only a few weeks of fighting. = Paris was taken without a shot being fired. The Nazis promptly proclaimed the death penalty for possession of firearms in France and other occupied countries. "In contrast, Cuisan recalled the high duty of the soldier to resist: " 'Everywhere, where the order is to hold, it is the duty of conscience of each fighter, even if he depends on himself alone, to fight at his assigned position. The riflemen, if overtaken or surrounded, fight in = their position until no more ammunition exists. Then cold steel is next. ... The machine gunners, the cannoneers of heavy weapons, the artillerymen, if in the bunker or on the field, do not abandon or destroy their weapons, or allow the enemy to seize them. Then the crews fight further like riflemen. As long as a man has another cartridge or hand weapons to use, he does not yield. ..." Even old men and children were issued armbands, identifying them as Ortswehren (local defense) so they could not be shot as partisans under international law, when the time came for them to shoot any invader they saw. Hitler never invaded Switzerland. Would you have? Nor has any dictator -- military or otherwise -- ever attempted to rule the Swiss cantons by "executive order" ... like the one Bill Clinton haughtily signed to outlaw the import of AK-47 variants which his own ATF had found to be in full compliance with current law. "There was no holocaust on Swiss soil," Mr. Halbrook concludes. "Swiss Jews served in the militia side by side with their fellow citizens, and kept rifles in their homes just like everyone else. It is hard to believe that there could have been a holocaust had the Jews of Germany, Poland, = and France had the same privilege." Folks ask me: "I'm just one person, what can I do?" Buy an M1-A, or an AR-10, at $1,100. These are better weapons than are currently standard issue in the U.S. Army. If you can't afford those, buy = a surplus M-1 Garand at $500, or even a 1917 Enfield, at $250. For the smaller women and teens, a surplus M-1 carbine apiece, at about $350. Six magazines for each rifle and a couple thousand rounds of surplus ammunition= (in bulk) may set you back $800. Do it before autumn of 1998, when the Brady Bill allows national gun registration, even for LONG GUNS. But only if you want America to remain a free country, of course. Freedom is always optional. Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin@lvrj.com. The = web site for the Suprynowicz column is at http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/. The column is syndicated in the United States and Canada via Mountain Media Syndications, P.O. Box 4422, Las Vegas Nev. 89127. *** Vin Suprynowicz, vin@lvrj.com=20 "The right of self-defense is the first law of nature; in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and when the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction." -- Henry St. George Tucker, in Blackstone's 1768 "Commentaries on the Laws of England." ----END FORWARDED MESSAGE---- --=20 Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by rule of construction be conceived to give the Congress the power to disarm the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some general pretense by a state legislature. But if in blind pursuit of inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be appealed to as a restraint on both." -- William Rawle, 1825; considered academically to be an expert commentator on the Constitution. He was offered the position of the first Attorney General of the United States, by President Washington. ----END FORWARDED MESSAGE---- -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "From all that terror teaches, From lies of tongue and pen, From all the easy speeches That comfort cruel men, From sale and profanation of honor and the sword, From sleep and from damnation, Deliver us, Good Lord." -- G.K. Chesterton, "A Hymn" - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Re: [governor@state.ut.us: Re: [Vin_Suprynowicz@lvrj.com: Date: 01 May 1998 14:19:58 -0600 At 11:15 AM 5/1/98 -0600, you wrote: > >Different message to the governor--same reply. :) > >This guy has got to be defeated in two years. Or maybe impeached in less than two years for willfully and repeatedly violating the Utah State weapons laws.... Nah...... just wishful thinking. Sarah - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: RNC/ Clinton News Conference - "Breaking the Law is Not Date: 01 May 1998 15:17:28 -0700 Received: from web185c.bbnplanet.com (web185c.bbnplanet.com [207.121.186.185]) by web185c.bbnplanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02140; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:03:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BRONZE.RNC.ORG by BRONZE.RNC.ORG (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 15183 for PRESSLIST@BRONZE.RNC.ORG; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:56:09 -0700 Received: from web185c.bbnplanet.com (web185c.bbnplanet.com [207.121.186.185]) by web185c.bbnplanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA01765 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:56:06 -0700 (PDT) Approved-By: shenry2@IX.NETCOM.COM Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.8]) by web185c.bbnplanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA01736 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id IAA04033 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 08:47:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from unknown(207.94.140.239) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma004015; Fri May 1 08:47:31 1998 X-Sender: shenry2@popd.ix.netcom.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <199805011347.IAA04033@dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: Sean Henry Sender: RNC Press List of Those Things" RNC News Release April 30, 1998 RNC CHAIRMAN JIM NICHOLSON: "BREAKING THE LAW IS NOT JUST ONE OF THOSE THINGS!" WASHINGTON - Republican National Committee Chairman Jim Nicholson today strongly criticized President Clinton for saying in his press conference that breaking the law, perjury and telling others to lie under oath is "just one of those things." "Astonishingly, Bill Clinton was unable to bring himself to say that a president is not above the law," Nicholson said. "Instead, we heard him say that -- to him --'committing perjury' and 'breaking the law' are '"just one of those things.' "The answer to the question should have been simple. Clinton should have said: 'In America no one is above the law. Not the President. Not anyone.' "It is vital that Republicans and, yes, Democrats as well quickly reassert and emphasize this core American value. It is disgraceful and deeply disturbing that Clinton rejects this belief and asserts that he is above the law." President Clinton made his remarks today in his first and only solo presidential press conference of the year. A verbatim transcript of the exchange follows: ABC White House Correspondent, Sam Donaldson: "Mr. President, quite a few Americans seem to believe it doesn't matter what you may have done in private moments, that that's between you and your wife. And some are saying it doesn't even matter if you've broken the law - obstructed justice or committed perjury. Now, you deny wrongdoing, I understand. But as standard for presidents, what do you think? And, particularly, does it matter if you have committed perjury or in other sense broken the law?" President Clinton: "Well, since I have answered the underlying questions, I really believe it's important for me not to say any more about this. I think that I'm the last person who needs to be having a national conversation about this. What I'm trying to do - I may be the leader, but my job as leader is to lead the country and to deal with the great public issues facing the country, and to prove Justice Scalia right when he said that nothing that could be done to me in a legal way would in any way affect my job as president. It would be just one of those things and I could go right on and do my job. And I'm going to do my best to prove him correct by doing the public's business." (Visit http://www.rnc.org for the latest republican news and information) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Promised Land -Forwarded Date: 01 May 1998 17:06:22 -0700 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:48:37 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id VAA27473; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:45:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma027328; Thu Apr 30 21:40:59 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: csmart@mail.eden.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Just saw a TV movie with Gerald McRaney, Promised Land. The show's premise was a 16 year old that comes into a school house and kills a fellow student while looking for a teacher to kill. McRaney's TV wife talks the kid down and then the shooter tries to kill himself. The shooter was using a Remington 742 that looked to be a 30-06. The shooter was partially blocked in this suicide attempt by the wife. He makes it to the Hospital. The second half of the show is taken up with dealing with the topic of kids with "conduct disorder" IE, the target group of kids that do violent acts. Not ONCE does this show mention guns. Not ONCE does the show address the media hot topics of locking up guns or any other gun control topic. It addressed the issue of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY! I URGE everyone to log onto cbs.com and THANK THEM for showing this episode. The producer of the show came on before the start and said the show was filmed a week prior to the Jonesboro kid shootings and they thought about delaying airing the episode. I'm glad they didn't wait. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: ID: Chenoweth Misrepresented In The Media -Forwarded Date: 01 May 1998 18:02:49 -0700 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Fri, 01 May 1998 17:42:40 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id TAA24445; Fri, 1 May 1998 19:40:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma024254; Fri May 1 19:35:42 1998 Message-Id: <199805012232.QAA00327@mail2.rockymtn.net> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: davisda@rmi.net Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list >Return-Path: >Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:47:05 -0400 >From: Gun Owners of America >Reply-To: Gun Owners of America >To: goamail@gunowners.org >Subject: ID: Chenoweth Misrepresented In The Media > > Anti-gun Media Distorts Chenoweth's Gun Record > -- Make your voice heard in a Letter to the Editor > > by Gun Owners of America > 8001 Forbes Place, Springfield, VA 22151, (703)321-8585, fax: > 321-8408 > > > (Wednesday, April 29, 1998) -- As you know, Rep. Helen >Chenoweth (R-ID) is one of the strongest supporters of the Second >Amendment that we have in the Congress. Not surprisingly, the >anti-gun media (even in her home state) rarely pass up an >opportunity to distort her record. > > At the very bottom of this alert, we have reprinted a >recent misinterpretation from The Idaho Statesman. While their >attack is subtle, it is perhaps the most dangerous kind of >subterfuge that media pens can wield. They don't attack by >name-calling or by some other form of obvious denunciation. > > Rather, they attempt to destroy one's credibility using the >weapon of ridicule. They attempt to appear "objective" while >making a legislator's statement seem erroneous. In this case, >the Statesman pretends to factually evaluate one of Rep. >Chenoweth's advertisements. (Rep. Chenoweth placed a pro-gun ad >in a national magazine in an attempt to garner support for >repealing the obnoxious Lautenberg gun ban. As you know, Rep. >Chenoweth has courageously taken the lead in fighting to repeal >this ban.) But the journalists at the Statesman -- while trying >to sound "objective" -- cannot divorce themselves from their >anti-gun mindset. Objectivity is just not in the cards for >them. > > ACTION: GOA has printed the Statesman's distortion at the >end of this alert. We would ask that you consider choosing one >of the Letters to the Editor below and sending it as a response >to the Statesman's article. You can send your Letter to the >Editor by mail or fax to the following address/number: Idaho >Statesman, ATTN: Editorial Page Editor, PO Box 40, Boise, ID >83707 or Fax: 208-377-6449. > > >Dear Editor: > > Your "Reality Check" article from April 9 is itself in need >of a Reality Check. The new law you spoke of -- the one >introduced by Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ) -- revokes the Second >Amendment rights of ordinary citizens for committing VERY minor >"offenses." > > While you were correct in saying that being a victim of >domestic violence "doesn't [automatically] trigger the ban," the >fact is many victims DO get sucked under its purview. > > These days, when the police are called out to a home, both >parties are often charged, no matter who was at fault -- some >states even require an arrest be made. Now you can easily have a >police record, even if it only led to your paying a small fine. >The end result is a loss of your God-given rights. > > Last year, the Gun Owners of America reported on one >Illinois lady who lost her right to self-defense because she >called the police to her home. When her husband returned home >drunk one evening, more than ten years ago, an argument ensued >and he started breaking out the windows in the house. >Frightened, she called the police, but when they arrived they >claimed there was nothing they could do since it was his own >property. > > Angered by her husband's "smug look," she slapped him in >the face, right in front of the police officer. Incredibly, the >police arrested her and took her to jail, charging her with >simple assault. In order to avoid the costly expense of a trial >and hiring an attorney, she pled guilty to a misdemeanor and >paid a $25 fine. > > Now, because of the Lautenberg gun ban, she can no longer >own guns. She now has a new husband who might also be prevented >from keeping guns in their home because the wife would still be >in "possession" of those firearms. > > I agree with Rep. Helen Chenoweth that this law must be >repealed. I hope you will run your facts through a "Reality >Check" the next time you report on this law. > > >Dear Editor: > > The "Political Ad Watch" column missed the mark recently >when analyzing Rep. Helen Chenoweth's position on the Lautenberg >gun ban. > > Rep. Chenoweth is absolutely correct in her critique of this >onerous law. This gun ban is one of the most dangerous pieces of >legislation to pass in the last decade. > > This ban will disarm a person for life, for convictions >as slight as spanking a child or grabbing a spouse. > > Every year, over 200,000 women use a gun to defend >themselves against sexual assault. But the Lautenberg ban can >easily take guns away from women who have no other way of >defending themselves. > > In many localities, spanking your child is now considered >domestic violence "child abuse." How many mothers have spanked >their children as a way to correct them? But because of the >Lautenberg ban, now one can lose their right to self-defense for >merely spanking their child. > > For these and other reasons, several women's and family >groups support Rep. Chenoweth's bill repealing the Lautenberg >gun ban. > > These groups include the likes of Concerned Women for >America, Independent Women's Forum, Women Against Gun Control, >American Family Association, Safety for Women and Responsible >Motherhood, and the Home School Legal Defense Association. > > I'm glad that Rep. Chenoweth is doing something about this >dangerous law. She is a fine lady for standing up for the rights >of decent Americans. > > >Dear Editor: > > Representative Helen Chenoweth is right on the money when it >comes to gun legislation. > > Since late 1996, there has been a law in effect in this >country which has the potential of disarming millions of decent >American citizens. Thankfully, Mrs. Chenoweth is pushing a bill >that will repeal this so-called Domestic Violence Misdemeanor Gun >Ban -- a bill that will do nothing to help battered women and >abused children, as its proponents claim. > > After all, most men who abuse women and children use sheer >physical force. Women, however, often rely on a firearm to >defend themselves. > > But the real danger of the law is that it imposes a >lifetime gun ban for misdemeanors, which by definition are >supposed to be minor offenses. In many cases, a misdemeanor does >not even involve actual physical violence. > > For example, a pro-Second Amendment group that I support >recently told of an Ohio man who had a fierce verbal argument >with his father when he was seventeen. Someone called the >police, and the father let them arrest the youth to "teach him a >lesson." The next morning, the father went to the police station >to have the charges dropped, but that was not possible. The >father paid a small fine and took his son home. > > In 1996, ten years after the original incident, the son had >nearly completed training to join a local police department. >After the Lautenberg ban passed, however, this young man, who >had no other encounters with the law, was subject to a lifetime >gun prohibition. > > The Lautenberg ban is nonsensical. If there is a problem >with truly violent offenders plea-bargaining down to >misdemeanors, that should be handled in the court system. >Firearm ownership is one of the most basic liberties a free >people enjoy, and should not be taken away from persons >convicted of mere misdemeanors. > > > Excerpt from the Political Ad Watch > (The Idaho Statesman, 4/9/98) > > "The Advertisement -- AD CONTENT: In the April 5 national >weekly edition of The Washington Times, [Rep. Helen] Chenoweth >attacks an amendment sponsored by Sen. Frank Lautenberg, D-NJ, >to ban people convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence >offenses from owning guns. The measure is now law. > > "'Don't Let the Government STEAL YOUR GUNS! . . . An abused >spouse can be denied the right to own a gun,' the ad says. 'The >ban applies to couples who get into shouting matches with each >other or their children. The amendment is retroactive and >creates a new penalty for many law enforcement men and women who >may have been a past victim of domestic violence.'" > > "REALITY CHECK: The Lautenberg law applies only to people >who have been convicted by a jury or have pleaded guilty to a >misdemeanor crime of domestic violence. Being accused of >domestic violence -- or being a victim -- doesn't trigger the >ban. [Note: Rep. Chenoweth never said that "being accused" of >domestic violence automatically triggers the ban. This type of >subtle misrepresentation makes it appear as though the >Representative is spouting untruth.] > > "Graham Paterson, Chenoweth's campaign aide, defends the ad >by saying that some people may be wrongly accused and simply >plead guilty to the crime 'to put the issue behind them' or >because they can't afford a lawyer. > > [Note: Here the Statesman makes a slight concession.] >"Chenoweth is correct in saying that the law applies to people >in the armed services and law enforcement. No one who has been >convicted of a misdemeanor domestic violence offense is exempt >from the measure. And it is retroactive in the sense that >convictions before 1996, when the law took effect, can strip >people of the right to own or carry a gun. . . ." > > >*********************************************************** >Are you receiving this as a cross-post? To be certain of >getting up-to-the-minute information, please consider >joining the GOA E-mail Alert Network directly. The service >is free, your address remains confidential, and the volume >is quite low: five messages a week would be a busy week >indeed. To subscribe, simply send a message (or forward >this notice) to goamail@gunowners.org and include your >state of residence in either the subject line or the body. > > > > ****************** Firearms, self-defense, and other information, with LINKS are available at: http://shell.rmi.net/~davisda Latest additions are found in the group NEW with GOA and other alerts under the heading ALERTS. For those without browser capabilities, send [request index.txt] to davisda@rmi.net and an index of the files at this site will be e-mailed to you. Then send [request ] and the requested file will be sent as a message. Various shareware programs are archived at: ftp://shell.rmi.net/pub2/davisda To receive the contents of the FTP site, send [request index.ftp] to davisda@rmi.net ******************** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: "Death Merchants - 81; U.S. Taxpayers - 19" - a letter to Date: 04 May 1998 08:20:03 -0700 Received: from bob-dj (slip129-37-227-11.az.us.ibm.net [129.37.227.11]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id EAA29046; Sun, 3 May 1998 04:16:40 GMT Message-Id: <4.0.1.329.19980502211430.00f94140@mail.djurdjevic.com> X-Sender: bobdj@mail.djurdjevic.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1.329 (Beta) editor of the New York Times (May 2, 1998) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" PHOENIX, ARIZONA Thought you may be interested in the enclosed letter to the editor of the New York Times. If you're not, and don't care to receive any such reports which upset your 'happy-go-lucky NWO nirvana" state of mind, just send us your e-mail address and write REMOVE or UNSUBSCRIBE. We'll be happy to oblige. But be sure to specify the EXACT e-mail ID to which this is being sent. Bob Dj. Toby Harshaw Letters Editor THE NEW YORK TIMES New York, NY -------------- Dear Mr. Harshaw: Mr. Thomas Friedman's outrage is understandable when he writes that, "we are in the age of midgets." And when he quotes a distinguished American statesman, George Kennan, now age 94, as saying that, "I think it (the Senate vote) is the beginning of a new cold war... I think it is a tragic mistake. There was no reason for this whatsoever. No one was threatening anybody else. This expansion would make the Founding Fathers of this country turn over in their graves." But I am afraid that there is a perfectly good reason for the Apr. 30 Senate vote ratifying the NATO Expansion Treaty which neither Mr. Friedman nor Mr. Kennan mentioned. It is the $33 million dollars or so which the U.S. death merchants have pumped into our legislators' campaigns since 1990 in the hope this may help "sharpen their (the Senators) thinking" when the time to vote comes, according to Col. David Hackworth, America's most decorated living soldier and a syndicated columnist. It did. The final score was: Death Merchants - 81; Taxpayers - 19. In other words, it was a blow-out, to borrow a sports term. Which is why we, the U.S. taxpayers-losers, need to show our ire by holding the 81 Senators' feet to the fire when they next ask for our votes. "Remember your NATO hot potato?" we should respond. "Well, it burned right through your right hand, Senator, the one with which you swore to uphold the U.S. Constitution and vote your constituents' interests in Congress. Good luck in your job hunt!" Sincerely, Bob Djurdjevic Founder TRUTH IN MEDIA ---- Bob Djurdjevic TRUTH IN MEDIA Phoenix, Arizona e-mail: bobdj@djurdjevic.com Visit the Truth in Media Web site for more articles on geopolitical affairs. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Thompson" Subject: USSC Meeting CHANGE!! Date: 04 May 1998 14:17:10 -0600 Hi all! The USSC meeting scheduled for THIS EVENING, Monday, May 4, has been CANCELLED. The meeting has been rescheduled for THURSDAY evening, May 7. The location is the same, 7 N. Main Street in Kaysville. (Crossroads of the West offices). Time is 7 PM. If anyone needs directions or is interested in carpooling, please let me know. I don't have a formal agenda for Thursday's meeting, but we will be discussing candidate evaluation questionnaires. Other possible topics include a proposed change in the date for elections, and proposed policies and strategies for the remaining interim sessions as well as next year's legislative session. Also, if anyone has a complete list of sponsors for last night's NBC movie "Incident on Long Island", please forward it so I can post and distribute it. Thanks! Apologies for the late notice. I didn't get the notice of the change until about two hours ago. Sarah To subscribe to the USSC mail list, send a message to: USSC@therighter.com In the SUBJECT of the message put: SUBSCRIBE USSC - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Thompson" Subject: USSC Meeting CHANGE AGAIN! Date: 04 May 1998 20:19:34 -0600 Hi all! Apologies once again for providing incorrect (or at least not up to date) information. The USSC Board meeting scheduled for THURSDAY, MAY 7 has also been CANCELLED. The meeting will be held in approximately two weeks, but I have no information regarding the actual date, place or time. (At least this is good news for Jazz fans like me! ) I feel absolutely horrible about providing so much misinformation. I know some of you have made efforts to arrange your schedules to accomodate meetings and then rescheduled to accomodate changes. Since the Board appears to be having some communications problems which are resulting in my not having accurate information to disseminate, my only option is to close down the USSC e-mail alerts until these problems are resolved. So, effective immediately, there will be no further USSC e-mail alerts originating with me until the problems are resolved. I hope they will be resolved quickly so that the alerts can resume. In the meantime, should you have questions about meeting schedules or any other USSC business, please contact one of the Board members listed below. I apologize for the inconvenience, but I believe it is better to provide no information than to provide incorrect information. Thanks for your understanding and cooperation. Sarah Thompson The following Board members have volunteered to have their contact info made public. Please feel free to contact them, but please do not abuse their open-door policy. Doug Henrichsen, 771-3196(h), cathounds@aol.com Elwood Powell, 426-8274 or 583-2882 (h), 364-0412 (w), 73214.3115@compuserve.com Shirley Spain, 963-0784, agr@aros.net Bob Templeton, 544-9125 (w), 546-2275 (h) Sarah Thompson, 566-1067, righter@therighter.com (I prefer e-mail to phone calls when possible). Joe Venus, 571-2223 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry larsen" Subject: Fw: The Incident on Long Island Date: 04 May 1998 22:12:24 -0600 This seems like a good place to spread this very good letter around too. larry (fred's address removed by me as courtesy) -----Original Message----- Cc: api@lists.best.com Larry-- Here is my response to NBC. I really think they can be attacked for their role in providing soft money support for a candidate to Congress. At the very least maybe they can be forced into giving equal time to her opponent. If anyone knows the opponent, pass the idea on. DOG/DVC Fred -----Original Message----- >Your above noted movie is a travesty to every American and a slap in the >face to, and an attack on, the millions of law abiding gun owners in this >country. The movie, purportedly to be a "true" story, is filled with lies, >distortion, deceit, and is a poor attempt at disguising a political >advertisement in the form of a real life movie. I will write letters to each >of your advertisers for this movie so that they will understand why I am >boycotting their products, and why I am encouraging one and all to boycott >their products. In fact, I am so angry that I will be writing letters to all >your advertisers protesting their support of NBC. Either our Constitution >means what it says or it doesn't. You either believe in the Constitution and >what it stands for or you don't. I will also ask the appropriate federal >authorities to investigate NBC providing election support to a woman running >for Congress. It's what I believe Congress identifies as soft money. I am >truly sorry to see what was once a fine entertainment network degraded to a >left leaning organ. >Fred Muller > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Protesters in five states ask gun makers to step up controls Date: 04 May 1998 19:55:00 -0700 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>> Organization: CWA Ladies & Gentlemen: Here they go again. The anti-gun nuts now want an end to hollow point bullets! You know, if it were /_really_/ about saving lives they'd ban alcohol again -- or even cars. If it were /_really_/ about saving lives, they'd be damanding action on the fact that 100,000 people die each year from fatal reactions to /_prescribed_/ medicines. (Only 5,000 to 10,000 people die each year from taking /_illegal_/ drugs) If it were /_really_/ about saving lives, these anti-gun activists would push for a ban on the consumption of alcohol outside a person's private home, which would drastically cut down the number of alcohol-related automobile deaths. But it's not about saving lives: It's about disarming the citizens. All these gripes are just a ploy. When the BATF got their asses shot off trying to do a fund raiser at a church congregation's expense at Waco, Clinton took notice. He knew the FBI's own crime figures showed that semi-automatic long guns were used in less than two-tenths of all gun crimes committed, yet he pushed through the Assualt Weapons Ban. Why? Because he and that baby-butcher Janet Reno didn't want their storm troopers breaking down doors in fear of their lives. Clinton wants to disarm American's from owning the same kind of weapons his own forces use in order to gain a tactical advantage over the citizens the government finds disagreeable. Well, Mr. Clinton, we aren't going to allow that. You can pass any law you want to, but we will not be disarmed from those weapons necessary to the preservation and efficiency of the Militia without a very bloody fight. History has consistently proven that a disarmed citizenry always leads to genocide, and we, the American Militia, know that history very, very well. Carl F. Worden Liaison & Intelligence Officer Southern Oregon Militia Protesters in five states ask gun makers to step up controls 8.07 p.m. ET (008 GMT) May 2, 1998 SPRINGFIELD, Mass. (AP) Protesters marched outside America's largest handgun maker Saturday to demand safeguards they say will cut down on the thousands of gun deaths that happen each year. "We are holding the gun industry responsible because they have refused to design, advertise and market their products to save the lives of children,'' said Arlene Locicero, 58, of Hawthorne, N.J. Locicero, whose daughter was one of six people killed in a 1993 shooting aboard a Long Island commuter train, was among 150 people protesting outside Smith & Wesson. The protest was one of several scheduled to be held Saturday outside the country's largest gun makers in Connecticut, Georgia, Maryland, Massachusetts and Virginia. Protesters laid out 5,285 pairs of shoes to represent the number of young people age 19 and under who died from gunshots either by homicide, suicide or accident in 1995, the latest year for which statistics were available. The Silent March protesters as they called themselves want weapons manufacturers to make guns childproof, drop laser sights and hollow-point bullets, display prominent warning labels on guns, reduce production and raise prices. "I think the gun manufactures have created this environment,'' said Tina Johnstone, the Silent March founder whose husband was killed in San Francisco in 1992. "The country is awash in handguns that are killing people.'' About 100 people showed up in Southport, Conn., to protest at Sturm, Ruger & Co. Another hundred protested in Baltimore. Maryland is home to the gunmaker Beretta. "I think it's far more important that we work together,'' said Nancy Fenton, executive director of Marylanders Against Handgun Abuse. Gunmakers, she said, "can become the best salesman for firearm safety. They really have the opportunity, and we feel they have the responsibility to provide that kind of education.'' Congress is now considering a child access prevention bill intended to educate parents about proper gun storage. Ed Shultz, Smith & Wesson's CEO and president, said his company already sells guns with trigger locks and takes many of the measures suggested by the protesters. However, "There is no substitute for proper training of those that are using firearms.'' He said gun owners must learn the importance of safe storage that keeps guns away from children. About 50,000 people died in gun-related violence between 1985 and 1995. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Welcome to Gestapo Amerika 1/2 Date: 04 May 1998 19:55:00 -0700 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- I just sent this off to the Idaho Observer. I'm a little late on delivery, and the paper goes to press tomorrow, so it may or may not get published, depending on whether the editor buys my flimsy excuses or not. I've been trying to call Mr. Evan Nappan, but he's not available/out of the area, etc., so I can't yet produce an address for Mr. Schaefer's defense fund, but will as soon as someone let's me know what it is, or the Nappan answers the phone. Contribute. And let's find some dirt on these New Jersey Gestapo. Patty Welcome to Gestapo Amerika Patricia Neill (c) 1998 Can there be any more reasonable doubt that we as a country have been overtaken by Gestapo police, BATF, FBI, IRS, EPA organizations that have taken Hitler's techniques and now use them regularly? In New Jersey, an FFL licensed gunsmith was attacked in his household. He was seriously abused, as was his wife and stepson. The BATF made the charges, but the New Jersey Police "served the search warrant." How much longer, people, will we put up with this? Good friends of Mr. Schaefer have contributed their opinions to this horrible story. Their long-term friendships of Mr. Schaefer speak for themselves. I will quote a few things they have to say before you read what occurred early in the morning of April 22, 1998. From Charles Riggs: "John is 53 and a veteran of the U.S. Army, works in computers with one of the largest phone companies in the country, holds an FFL, andis a gunsith andconsultant in on firearms and ammunition. His clients have included police departments in the past." More from Mr. Riggs: Mr. Schaefer is a Christian, a gun owner, knowledgable about weaponry, and is thus scheduled for attack by the BATF, although this raid was carried out by the New Jersey State Police. The charges against him for not filling out a form correctly or whatever come from the BATF. The NJSP, seemingly having taken some drugs to make them even more evil and unlawful, attacked his home and family. Immediately after the word of John Schaefer's attack by the BATF/NJSP went on the net, some media donkey kicked in with slurs of how he deserved it--because he was a "felon"--although from the reports, this "reporter" got his information directly from the cops in question, in the same manner all the mainstream "reporters" got their "news" about the Branch Davidians from the BATF. The NJST kicked, hit, sprayed with pepper spray. Just read Mr. Shaefer's own words about what happened to him. Does this ring any bells to anyone? Isn't this precisely how the Jews were treated in Germany when Hitler came to power? Apparently "gun owners" are the new Jews, the new victims. Can't let the little people have guns. I cannot write about this: I refuse to be objective over such abuses. Mr. Schaefer's story follows. A contact with friends of his, and a phone number for his attorney comes next. He will have a defense fund. Contribute what you can. If you do not, then do not expect help from others when it happens to you. I would have liked to have written a good "news" article about this, but frankly, I am too angry to do so. Emotions do have a place in "news" reporting. I want you all to react, and strongly. Unless, of course, you want to live in the Nationalist Socialist Germany of Hitler's time. Or in the Communist regime of Good Ol' Uncle Joe Stalin. Both men are responsible for the murder of millions. First thing they did was to take any weaponry away from whom they conside the "serfs." For a time, in America, we have not been "serfs." Shall we willingly return to that state? Shall we put up with Gestapo? It is up to you. The minority of us who are angry, and who hate these Gestapo attacks will be the first killed. Then your Glorious Leaders will come for you. I will not be a slave. Neither will Mr. John Schaefer. Call his attorney, write to the people with "power" over his case, and help out. Or don't. And cry later. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Welcome to Gestapo Amerika 2/2 Date: 04 May 1998 19:55:00 -0700 In the words of John Schaefer himself, here's what happened. "At 7:15 this morning (4/22) over a dozen machine-gun armed agents of the NJ State Police broke down my front door and invaded my home screaming obscenities. We were rousted from our beds at gun point. I was ordered to the floor, and when I couldn't get down on my knees fast enough because of my artificial knee and arthritis I was kicked to the floor, and my back and neck repeatedly stomped. When one trooper yanked on my arm that had been injured several years ago and I yelled in pain I was Maced [pepper sprayed, ED] and then kicked in the head at least twice resulting in a bloody lip and head pain. Of course none of the storm troopers were wearing name tags. We were forced into our living room, made to stand about in handcuffs for about four hours in our pajamas while they trashed the house. "They took all of my firearms, MOST of the ammunition (go figure), my cartridge collection of US military ammo, my lead ingots and a couple of buckets of cast bullets, all of my business records, and get this, my Gunsite 260 certificate (they left my 499 certificate), and my NRA Instructors certificate. They panicked at a dummy 60mm mortar round (the kind you can pick up in surplus stores) and a blue dummy 100lb "practice bomb" (empty sheet metal casing) yet left a couple of M79 practice grenade rounds that were on display in my office. "My wife and stepson were verbally abused and my stepson was grabbed and roughed up by one young punk agent and threatened when he asked for some clothes. "All of the agents were pacing nervously about pointing their weapons all over and were REALLY psyched up. They were really enjoying what they were doing. I overheard several comments about "well we got another gun nut." They joked about the fact that I was in excruciating pain from my shoulder and knee. One storm trooper wanted to know what my "fucking problem was." I was finally taken to the local PD where I was at least treated with a little respect and compassion. "I was finally released on $7,500 bail and my wife took me to the hospital were I was x-rayed, catscanned and given some serious pain medication and released. None of the hospital staff could believe what happened to me. "When I finally got back to our house I was amazed to find that they had left ammunition in my vault, and a lot of reloading components in my basement. "We have retained a big time attorney (NRA member) but have no idea how we are going to afford him and my retirement papers are in. "Your prayers for my family and I will be greatly appreciated in this terrible time." Mr Schaefer, by the advice of his attorney, is keeping quiet. A good idea. You can contact his attorney, however, and learn the address for the defense fund. New Jersey links: Gov. Christine Todd Whtiman (R) http:/www.state.nj.us/governor/contact.htm NJ Division of Criminal Justice http://www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/index.htm email: citizens@oag.lps.state.nj.us John and Sue Schaefer's Home page: http://home.sprynet.sprynet/frfrog (don't bother them personally, they got enough on their plate) Friends: cas@alaska.net Charles Riggs: http:/www.wk3.com Mr. Schaefer's attorney, who is also handling his defense fund is Evan Nappen, in Eatontown, NJ (732-389-8888). note from Mr. Schaefer to me: Patty: Cas asked me to drop you a note. Sorry I haven't returned your messages but I have been inundated with mail. I have been asked by my attorney, Evan Nappen, in Eatontown, NJ (732-389-8888) not to make any comments other than, I am NOT a felon. PERIOD. Such action is reasonable and prudent in any legal matter. Evan is also handling the legal defense fund for me. Thanks for your support. John Schaefer -- __________________________________________________ John C. Schaefer frfrog@sprynet.com Excalibur Associates FAX: 732.341.4361 People's Republic of NJ http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/frfrog "He who goes about unarmed in paradise had better be sure that that is where he is." -- James Thurber ___________________________________________________ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: WACO video -Forwarded Date: 05 May 1998 08:06:31 -0700 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Mon, 04 May 1998 18:29:49 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id UAA18399; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:28:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma018010; Mon May 4 20:24:09 1998 Message-Id: <354E5516.41CD@GunsSaveLives.com> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: chairman@gunssavelives.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list get gun books and all books at: http://thePentagon.com/training (a portion goes to pro-gun groups) You can use the following link to order the videotape of "Waco: The Rules of Engagement," the oscar-nominated documentary. small commissions to pro-gun groups. non-profit. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0966210506/gunssavelives/ THANKS -- Don't agonize. Organize. http://GunsSaveLives.com (Opinions here are personal and not those of any organization.) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Chris VanOcur -Forwarded Date: 05 May 1998 08:53:04 -0700 Received: from legacy.lgcy.com ([209.63.171.101]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Sat, 02 May 1998 09:02:39 -0600 Received: from mail.lgcy.com by legacy.derail.org (NTList 3.02.13) id ga663448; Sat, 2 May 1998 08:55:53 -0600 Received: from async-lgcy-08-113.lgcy.com (async-lgcy-08-113.lgcy.com [209.63.185.113]) by mail.lgcy.com (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ha474403 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 08:55:54 -0600 Reply-To: X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <14555443404152@lgcy.com> X-Info: Evaluation version at legacy.lgcy.com X-ListMember: dsagers@ci.west-valley.ut.us [discussion@derail.org] Greetings, If you saw the Cover Story regarding the debate on the right to carry concealed weapons on Channel 4 as reported by Chris VanOcur on Wed., April 29, you may want to offer Chris VanOcur some feedback. Here's my personal thoughts on the Cover Story: Channel 4 has always made an attempt to present a balanced story on the gun issue. I've received several media inquiries from Channel 4 asking for my humble opinion :) I've referred them to several incidents of examples of people using guns for self-defense and/or people who have been positively affected by guns in their life and they've reported them. If Channel 4 continues to receive positive feedback from people who believe in the RKBA, they will most likely continue to present both sides of the story. Of special interest is that Chris VanOcur told me that he cleared the story with people who work at the station who have conceal carry permits. In dealing with the media with this issue, I've found that many camera crew members are gun owners and believe in the RKBA. They just love it when people stand up to protect the 2nd Amendment and will cover the story if they have time. I mean, heck, it sure seems like they're making a lot better effort than Channel 5--with their latest editorial on "Girls and Guns." Chris VanOcur's phone number: 975-4413 Chris's E-mail: cvanocur@4utah.com Thanks for your patriotism! Janalee Tobias :) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Re: WalMart Donates to anti-gun cause (fwd) -Forwarded Date: 05 May 1998 12:55:53 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id OAA25055; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:30:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma024986; Tue May 5 14:29:47 1998 Message-Id: <9805051819.0i5a@xpresso.seaslug.org> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: noban@xpresso.seaslug.org Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list On May 05, John Wilson wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Steve Jones wrote: > ALERT: Wal-Mart Supports Anti-Gun Group in Missouri > > This problem is occurring in Missouri, but the issue is national. > Please > help. > > Missourians against Handgun Violence (MAHV) is the most prominent > anti-gun > organization in Missouri, and lobbies against the interests of lawful > gun > owners at every turn. The Spring issue of their newsletter is on the > > street, and contained an item that gun owners may find shocking. I > have > now verified that Wal-Mart intends to financially support this > organization. > > On "Mitzvah Day" this Sunday May 17th, MAHV will have a booth at > Wal-Mart > on St. Charles Rock Road in St. Ann Missouri where they will raise > funds, > promote trigger locks, and conduct a "say no to guns" art session for > young > children. Im sure the MAHV will have an ample supply of red crayons > standing by. Wal-Mart has pledged to match any funds the MAHV raises. > > Phone calls and letters to the store manager, a Mr. Tom Yarbrough, > explained the concerns of gun owners, and offered to provide trained > firearms experts from the Second Amendment Coalition of Missouri > (SACMO) to > set up an educational booth to explain the limitations and the dangers > of > misapplying trigger locks, and to show the public how to safely use > them in > an overall scheme of safe firearms storage. Yarbrough declined. I jusy got off the phone with the store manager Tom Yarbrough, first off I must say he was extreamly and causiously NICE to me. I told him I was very concerned about what I had heard on the internet about the fund raiser by MAHV Mr. Yarbrough told me he had only learned of this issue yesterday, and that he had an NRA member call him and inform him of this situation. He told me that he told this NRA member that the issue was not a done deal. and that the NRA member told him he was going to put it out over the internet anyway. I went ahead and told him I was a pro-gunner and an NRA member to get that out of the way and I told him I was also a stock holder. I informed him that I was trying to approach this issue with him as a stock holder. I thought this would get better results then the pro-gun stand. It don't matter to me what they think motivates me, all I care about is the end result. I think if the stock holders as well come out and express their concern it will help greatly. He listened to everything I said to him, I told him I could not believe Wal-Mart would get involved in such a politicaly charged issue and that it was unwise to open themselves up to such an issue as this. I expressed to him that it would be best if Wal-Mart would just stick to helping out the Childrens Merical Network and like causes. He told me that thats one of the reasons he was doing this in the first place because Wal-Mart lets individual stores donate so much money per year to charities. ( which is indeed true ) But I told him I do not think that this gun control organization is considered a charity and that you would not even be able to deduct contributions on your tax's. He told me that this group did have a tax letter, so I guess he was saying it was classified as a charity. I asked him to reconsider and elect not to hold this event and he said they were going to rethink thier decision to hold this thing. He told me that his store was approched by this organization and was asked if they could just setup a booth and hold a small fund raiser. I then questioned their decision to match the funds which led us to the point I typed above about the Miracle Network. I myself DO NOT believe this organization is listed as a charity but that is just my belief nothing more. Thats what happened on my end, my own personal opinion of the matter ::: Remember this is my opinion of mine based on how this guy acted with me on the phone. The manager seemed scared, like he got himself into something far bigger then he ever expected. He seemed willing to cave in if he caught enough slack from this. He seemed really worried about the fallout from this since it has been posted on the Internet. Of course I helped out his fear, I told him I have been on Internet for a long time and when something like this gets spread on the internet, he would have about 2 days before his phone will be jammed. He seemed quite concerned. I know Wal-Mart, and Wal-Mart has and will at times yank a manager from a store or demote them for screwups like these. They pretty much let the managers of the stores handle their own local stuff pertaining to this sort of thing. That is as long as they dont screwup. I dont think this will result in something happening like this though. Usually they will be warned a number of times before something drastic happens. But then again mabye this guy already messed up in the past, you never know. Anyway everyone needs to call the local store where this is happening and the Wal-Mart headquarters. It may help prevent this in the future. John voyager@mo.net [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Wal-Mart boycott again Date: 05 May 1998 13:07:05 -0600 >ALERT: Wal-Mart Supports Anti-Gun Group in Missouri > >This problem is occurring in Missouri, but the issue is national. Please >help. > >Missourians against Handgun Violence (MAHV) is the most prominent anti-gun >organization in Missouri, and lobbies against the interests of lawful gun >owners at every turn. The Spring issue of their newsletter is on the >street, and contained an item that gun owners may find shocking. I have >now verified that Wal-Mart intends to financially support this organization. > >On "Mitzvah Day" this Sunday May 17th, MAHV will have a booth at Wal-Mart >on St. Charles Rock Road in St. Ann Missouri where they will raise funds, >promote trigger locks, and conduct a "say no to guns" art session for young >children. Im sure the MAHV will have an ample supply of red crayons >standing by. Wal-Mart has pledged to match any funds the MAHV raises. > >Phone calls and letters to the store manager, a Mr. Tom Yarbrough, >explained the concerns of gun owners, and offered to provide trained >firearms experts from the Second Amendment Coalition of Missouri (SACMO) to >set up an educational booth to explain the limitations and the dangers of >misapplying trigger locks, and to show the public how to safely use them in >an overall scheme of safe firearms storage. Yarbrough declined. > >After taking time to consider the matter, Mr. Yarbrough has specifically >refused to amend his plans. Yarbrough said of MAHV "They are against >handgun violence, not against handguns." And then asked, "Are you an NRA >member?" When I said yes, he said "Oh." I don't know what his purpose in >asking that question was, and don't know if NRA members should feel less >welcome in his store than other customers. > >So, we can expect MAHV to deliver their message of fear and ignorance to >the public at the St. Ann store on the 17th, and can further expect WalMart >to write them a check at the end of the day. Speaking as a gun owner and >frequent Wal-Mart customer, I am outraged that any place I shop would take >the profit from my business and turn it against me like this. I will not >stand for it, and know you will not either. > >Wal-Mart national HQ has specifically refused to address the issue. If you >dont mind the long wait on hold, you might want to share your thoughts on >that. The number is (800) WAL-MART (925-6278). More effective might be >calls or letters to the district manager and the store manager: > >Ronny Hayes, District Manager >1307 Highway K >OFallon, MO 63366 >(314) 980-3700 > >Tom Yarbrough, store manager >10835 St. Charles Rock Road >St. Ann, MO 63074 >(314) 291-2300 or fax at (314) 291-8634. > >You may also want to email copies to letters@wal-mart.com in order to >demonstrate to their national headquarters the fact that this is a matter >of concern to gun owners. > >Do not let this pass without your voice being heard. > >As I write this, there are only 13 days until the event. If we respond >immediately, it may well be possible to convince Wal-Mart that it would be >a mistake to provide financial support to an anti-gun organization. Last >year, activism played a role in getting a local business organization to >rescind their financial support of MAHV. It is time to act again. Call or >write today. > >I originally spoke with Yarbrough on Wednesday April 12th. After having >been given adequate time to consider my input, on Monday May 4th he >encouraged me not to alert you, saying "We may change our minds, and you >would look pretty silly protesting an event that isn't going to happen." >Of course that was merely a tactic designed to keep us quiet. I'm not >about to let that happen. > >If anyone gets any form of verbal or written response either locally or >nationally, I'd appreciate a copy or brief summary. I can be reached at >stevejones@bigfoot.com, or faxed at 314-451-5624. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >| Steve Jones | "Outdoor Guide Magazine" - Hunting | >| stevejones@bigfoot.com | & Fishing in Missouri & Illinois. | >| http://www.evenstar.com/sjones/ | Call (800)706-2444 for a free copy. | >|-----------------------------------------------------------------------| >| "KTRS OUTDOOR GUIDE". Live hunting & fishing talk Sunday evenings | >| from 7 till 8 Central time at http://www.a-zuc.com/azlive.ram using | >| RealAudio from http://www.real.com. Talk Radio St. Louis, 550-KTRS. | > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This part is from Sarah: I received the following text of the MAHV newsletter article from a reader yesterday, but at that time was not able to confirm at what level this decision was made. If, as noted above, it is a national policy (or the national HQ refuses to intervene), then I'd agree that a nationwide protest/boycott is indicated. >From: Missourians Against Handgun Violence newsletter spring 1998 > >Making a Difference > >MAHV has 60 trigger locks, donated by Master Lock. >They are available free of charge to people who have >children and guns in their home. Donations are appreciated >to allow us to continue this program. The cost of each lock is >approximately $8. > >Shaare Emeth is asking for volunteers to help distribute MAHV >information and trigger locks. On "Mitzvah Day," May 17, MAHV >will have a booth at WalMart on St. Charles Rock Road to >encourage parents to buy locks for their guns at home. >There will be a "Say No to Guns" art session for younger children. > >A UNIQUE OPPORTUNITY To Help > >WalMart will match any funds MAHV can raise, so we are >looking for baked goods donations for May 17. If you can >contribute cookies, cakes, pies or brownies, please call >MAHV at 997-6301. AND if you have any other ideas for >money raising at this May 17th event, call MAHV immediately. >WalMart has generously offered to have their greeters >stationed at the entrance with donation jars for MAHV. Since I've also been asked about "Mitzvah Day", I'm including the follwing commentary. The opinions expressed are mine alone, and I'm solely responsible for any errors or misinterpretations. There is no such holiday or occasion as "Mitzvah Day"; it's a term made up by Shaare Emeth. (Shaare Emeth, by the way, means "Gateway of Truth" - a name which nicely belies its propagation of politically-correct, anti-Jewish lies.) Mitzvah most properly refers to a religious commandment, i.e. one of the commandments prescribed by G-d in the Bible or by the rabbis. More recently a "mitzvah" has taken on the meaning of any good deed. As far as I know, a mitzvah is an _individual_ responsibility, not one that accrues to a group. However, a mitzvah fulfilled through wrongdoing is considered an "averah" or transgression. I'm not a rabbi, nor in any way qualified to judge such things, but in my _opinion_, what Shaare Emeth is doing is an averah. While there is nothing inherently wrong with a trigger lock, if the person using it is fully informed as to its benefits and risks, that does not seem to be the intent of MAHV. If MAHV supports gun control, which appears to be the case, then Shaare Emeth is raising funds for a policy which is responsible for the deaths of millions of Jews at the hands of Russian czars, Hitler, Stalin, and others just during this century. And since Jews are specifically commanded (i.e. a mitzvah) to consider the plight of oppressed people everywhere (for we were slaves in Egypt and G-d delivered us), Jews may also not turn their backs on the genocide of other people either - roughly 60 million this century - all preceded by gun control. Thus Shaare Emeth, no matter how well-intentioned, is promoting policy that is unquestionably evil, and possibly even violating the true commandment to remember all who are oppressed. I have requested confirmation and additional information from Shaare Emeth. Depending on their response, polite letters of protest to them, especially from Jewish gun owners, might be in order. For more information on Jews and firearms, check out Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership, at http://www.jpfo.org In the meantime, looks like it's time to start a Wal-Mart boycott. Sarah - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Re: Chris VanOcur -Forwarded Date: 05 May 1998 13:30:10 -0600 At 08:53 AM 5/5/98 -0700, you wrote: >Greetings, > >If you saw the Cover Story regarding the debate on the right to carry >concealed weapons on Channel 4 as reported by Chris VanOcur on Wed., April >29, you may want to offer Chris VanOcur some feedback. > >Here's my personal thoughts on the Cover Story: > >Channel 4 has always made an attempt to present a balanced story on the gun >issue. I've received several media inquiries from Channel 4 asking for my >humble opinion :) I've referred them to several incidents of examples of >people using guns for self-defense and/or people who have been positively >affected by guns in their life and they've reported them. If Channel 4 >continues to receive positive feedback from people who believe in the RKBA, >they will most likely continue to present both sides of the story. > >Of special interest is that Chris VanOcur told me that he cleared the story >with people who work at the station who have conceal carry permits. In >dealing with the media with this issue, I've found that many camera crew >members are gun owners and believe in the RKBA. They just love it when >people stand up to protect the 2nd Amendment and will cover the story if >they have time. > >I mean, heck, it sure seems like they're making a lot better effort than >Channel 5--with their latest editorial on "Girls and Guns." > >Chris VanOcur's phone number: 975-4413 > >Chris's E-mail: cvanocur@4utah.com > >Thanks for your patriotism! > >Janalee Tobias :) > > I watched the Channel 4 cover story and thought it was entirely worthless fluff. It presented no information, facts, or anything that could be considered "news", even given the very loose definition of "news" currently rampant. It was a collage of images and emotions, nothing else. The only actual assertion made was my Mr. Edwards, that _when_ Salt Lake City is plagued by vast numbers of shoot-outs between gun owners, it will be too late to stop the carnage. (That's not a direct quote, but as close as I can remember, and essentially what he said.) This blatant lie went completely unchallenged. Further, while Mr. VanOcur made an _attemtp_ to be fair, his obvious anti-gun agenda was completely transparent, at least to this viewer. I have no doubt that Janalee was sincere in working to get positive press for gun owners in Utah. But if this is the best press coverage we can get in Utah, we're in sorry shape. Chris VanOcur gets a "thumbs down" from this reviewer. On the other hand, Jerry Andersch has always done an excellent job of covering firearms issues. Sarah Sarah Thompson, M.D. http://www.therighter.com GO JAZZ!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Fw: The Incident on Long Island -Reply Date: 05 May 1998 16:55:06 -0700 I am looking for a list of sponsors for the LIRR lie. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Thompson" Subject: NBC's advertisers Date: 06 May 1998 00:06:35 -0600 The following was forwarded to me by Brian Wilson. I have not verified the information, but consider him a reliable source. Note that the list does not necessarily include your local sponsors. Sarah <<<<<<<< >>>> X-Sender: bmw@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) >LIST OF ADVERTISERS ON BARBARA STREISAND'S RECENT ANTI-GUN MOIVE List of Advertisers on NBC's sunday night propaganda movie >> >>Advil (pain medicine) >>Midas mufflers >>Digiorno pizza's >>Taco Bell >>Arm & Hammer >>Certs breath mints >>Benadryl allergy medicine >>Prudential Insurance >>Almay makeup >>Right Guard >>Monistat 3 >>Enterprise car rental >>MCI >>Loreal makeup >>JC Penny >>Discover card >>Sears >>Dr Pepper >>McDonalds >>Polaroid >>Mazda >>AT&T Brian Wilson Talk Show Host/Author "the little black book on WHITEWATER" http://www.brian-wilson.com When looking for a reason why things go wrong, never rule out sheer stupidity. <<<<<<<< - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Thompson" Subject: WalMart $: Victory! Date: 06 May 1998 00:14:24 -0600 If you have no idea of what this is about, hit DELETE. I can't remember who all wrote to me about this or to whom I sent messages. Sorry! To those of you who helped stop the Wal-Mart "Mitzvah Day" abomination, my sincere thanks and congratulations. Sarah >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) >Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 22:24:34 -0500 >To: FIREARMS Discussion List >From: Steve Jones >Subject: WalMart $: Victory! > >To all who helped with the St. Ann Missouri Wal-Mart issue: > >What can I say but wow! > >A quick and decisive response has apparently won the day. The district >manager called me twice this afternoon, but I was in meetings. > >Two other people have spoken with the DM and been assured the event has >been called off. > >I will speak with the DM in the morning and post the "post mortem". > >Thanks everybody! Great job. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >| Steve Jones | "Outdoor Guide Magazine" - Hunting | >| stevejones@bigfoot.com | & Fishing in Missouri & Illinois. | >| http://www.evenstar.com/sjones/ | Call (800)706-2444 for a free copy. | >|-----------------------------------------------------------------------| >| "KTRS OUTDOOR GUIDE". Live hunting & fishing talk Sunday evenings | >| from 7 till 8 Central time at http://www.a-zuc.com/azlive.ram using | >| RealAudio from http://www.real.com. Talk Radio St. Louis, 550-KTRS. | > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: guns in Canada (fwd) -Forwarded Date: 06 May 1998 17:49:56 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id JAA04016; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:08:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma003693; Wed May 6 09:06:10 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: pwatson@utdallas.edu Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list ---------- Forwarded message ---------- [101] Feds exaggerate gun crimes: RCMP By PETER WORTHINGTON Toronto Sun April 30, 1998 When the federal government's controversial gun control law was passed (Bill C-68), a critical factor was statistics attributed to the RCMP that in 1993 there were 623 cases of violent crimes involving guns. In a country that has some 700 murders a year, this was alarming and helped persuade the influential Canadian Police Association to support the law that requires all rifles and shotguns to be registered between 1998 and 2003 - some seven million guns owned by three million Canadians. It's always been the law to regulate and register handguns - something that doesn't deter criminals, who have no prejudice against illegal pistols or revolvers. Estimates of implementing Bill C-68 range from $85 million to $1 billion-plus. The gun law has caused real and imagined rifts in Canada. Hunters, farmers, assorted gun lovers and those in remote areas view the legislation - probably correctly - as a step toward the confiscation of all guns. Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario and the territories are challenging the law. Meanwhile, the anti-gun lobby views the law as a civilized curb on violence and a means of cutting down criminal and domestic violence. Under Access to Information laws, Reform MP Garry Breitkreuz (Yorkton-Melville) has released an extraordinary letter written last year by RCMP Commissioner J.P.R. Murray, accusing the federal justice ministry of misrepresenting RCMP crime statistics involving firearms. In RCMP investigations of 88,162 violent crimes during 1993, "our statistics showed that there were 73 firearms involved in violent crime compared to the department of justice findings of 623 firearms involved in violent crime," Commissioner Murray wrote in July, 1997. He added that it was "of particular concern that the minister of justice and the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police relied on these statistics (attributed to the RCMP) while Bill C-68 was being processed in Parliament." The firearms research unit of the justice department used the phony statistics in its reports. Rather than a misprint or typographical error, it seems a deliberate attempt to mislead. Murray noted that the firearms unit claimed 51% of violent firearm crimes involved rifles or shotguns, while in 19% of firearm crimes handguns were used - giving momentum to the campaign to register or ban rifles and shotguns. Murray pointed out that 51% of crimes involving long guns boils down to barely 37 in all of Canada - out of a total 88,162 violent crimes, or .08%. Hardly a statistic that justifies the mania for long gun registration and control. Unmentioned by the government, but remarked by Commissioner Murray was that of 333 homicides and attempted homicides investigated by the RCMP in 1993, a grand total of six involved firearms. Hardly a crisis of gun violence. Murray's polite but firm "request" that "something must be done to correct the (erroneous) data or remove it from circulation," has largely been ignored. As well, the Canadian Firearms Centre didn't make corrections and used the false statistics in a 1995 report on firearms. In a letter dated March 30, 1998, Scott Newark, executive officer of the Canadian Police Association, wrote Justice Minister Anne McLellan, saying it was "deeply disturbing" that the RCMP found it "necessary to urge correction of grossly flawed and misleading firearms data prepared by the justice department ... " Worse, the police association says, is that when the RCMP pointed out the error and tried to meet with the Canadian firearms people, "the RCMP were rebuffed in their efforts to correct the public record which they knew to be false." Insisting it was "imperative" that accurate, reliable information on crimes involving firearms be available to Canadians, the police association warned: "Failure to meet these most basic requirements will result in a justifiable lack of confidence amongst Canadians that the government knows what it is doing when it purports to regulate firearms .. " I'd argue that the government knows exactly what it is doing - that its aim is not so much to reduce violent crime, but to take guns from law-abiding citizens when there's frail evidence that gun controls reduce gun crimes, most of which are committed with illegal guns. Justice officials have explained the discrepancy in statistics by saying many of the guns recovered by police weren't actually used in crime - just that they might be. Garry Breitkreuz wonders if public servants manipulate, distort and invent RCMP statistics to help achieve questionable political objectives, "How will we ever know when justice department officials are telling the truth?" McLellan wasn't justice minister when the false gun crime statistics were disseminated, but seems determined to keep quiet as long as there's no widespread pressure to explain. Western Canada seems especially hostile toward gun controls and more offended by the government's abuse of RCMP statistics than Eastern Canada is. Although it's a legitimate concern, the least expensive, most effective way to reduce the gun violence is mandatory prison sentences for those carrying a gun in a crime. Reality is that knives are a more violent threat to the public than guns. So, probably, are fists, baseball bats and frying pans. Registration anyone? Jack Perrine | ATHENA Programming, Inc | 626-798-6574 | ---------------- | 1175 No. Altadena Drive | fax 398-8620 | jack@minerva.com | Pasadena, CA 91107 US | - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: IP: Sarah Brady Statement on Gun Control Debate in N.Y., Date: 06 May 1998 17:51:59 -0700 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Wed, 06 May 1998 17:01:41 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id SAA27069; Wed, 6 May 1998 18:59:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma026937; Wed May 6 18:57:59 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: pwatson@utdallas.edu Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Source: US Newswire Sarah Brady Statement on Gun Control Debate in N.Y., Conn. U.S. Newswire 5 May 16:25 Sarah Brady Statement on Gun Control Debate in New York, Connecticut To: City and State desks Contact: Naomi Paiss of Handgun Control Inc., 202-289-5784, or 800-465-0334 (pager) WASHINGTON, May 5 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Following is a statement by Sarah Brady, chair of Handgun Control Inc.: "I want to applaud the Connecticut Legislature for unanimously passing comprehensive measures aimed at protecting children and keeping guns out of the wrong hands. Connecticut's legislators have resoundingly said "yes" to protecting children and "no" to pressure from the gun lobby. In an extraordinary move, every legislator voted in favor of this impressible package of gun violence prevention proposals. "Once again, Connecticut has led the nation in gun violence prevention legislation. H.B. 5746, which passed unanimously in the House on Friday and unanimously in the Senate on Monday, requires the sale of a child safety locking device with every handgun sale, expanding the current law which only required the locks on sales at retail. Of equal importance are provisions which: -- trace all guns recovered from crimes; -- mandate FBI fingerprint background checks for all gun permit applicants; -- allow private property owners to ban guns on their property; -- allow schools to keep all guns off school grounds -- even concealed license holders; -- establish strict criteria for reporting of involuntary commitments for psychiatric reasons; -- prohibit gun ownership of persons convicted of serious offenses when they were juveniles; and -- prohibit carrying firearms by intoxicated persons. "Any one of the provisions standing alone would be a significant improvement in Connecticut's law. The complete package, and the fact the every legislator supported them, is a major victory for supporters of reasonable gun control legislation. I especially want to thank Senate Majority Leader George Jepsen (D-27) and the Chair of the House Judiciary Committee, Michael Lawlor (D-99), for sponsoring and shepherding this legislation. Connecticut has a history of bipartisan support for gun control legislation, the vote on H.B. 5746 should set a new standard for our nation. "I also want to commend the New York State Assembly for passing Child Access Prevention Legislation (A 651). The New York State Senate should follow the lead of their neighbors in Connecticut and unanimously pass this responsible legislation. The children of New York deserve their attention. ------ Handgun Control Inc. (HCI), chaired by Sarah Brady, is the nation's largest citizens' gun control lobbying organization. Based in Washington, D.C., HCI works to enact stronger federal, state and local gun control laws, but does not seek to ban handguns. Founded in 1974, HCI has more than 400,000 members nationwide and works with local groups around the country to enact and protect reasonable gun control laws. More information about HCI and its affiliated organization, the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence, can be found on the HCI website at http://www.handguncontrol.org. -0- /U.S. Newswire 202-347-2770/ 05/05 16:25 Copyright 1998, U.S. Newswire ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. ----------------------- ********************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com with the message: subscribe ignition-point email@address or unsubscribe ignition-point email@address ********************************************** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: VPC Says Heston Remarks Inflammatory, Illustrates NRA Date: 06 May 1998 17:55:22 -0700 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Wed, 06 May 1998 17:50:23 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id TAA00732; Wed, 6 May 1998 19:46:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma000606; Wed May 6 19:46:16 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: pwatson@utdallas.edu Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Source: US Newswire VPC Says Heston Remarks Inflammatory, Illustrates NRA Agenda U.S. Newswire 4 May 14:34 Violence Policy Center Says Heston Remarks Inflammatory, Illustrates NRA 'Far-Right' Agenda To: National Desk Contact: Josh Sugarmann of the Violence Policy Center, 202-822-8200, ext. 101 WASHINGTON, May 4 /U.S. Newswire/ -- In a Hollywood press conference announced for 10:30 a.m. PDT today, NRA First Vice President Charlton Heston -- billed in the NRA media advisory for the event as a "civil rights activist" -- is expected to attack the NBC television movie "The Long Island Incident." In response, the Violence Policy Center (VPC) today released the transcript and video of a December 1997 speech Heston delivered before the Free Congress Foundation in which he made inflammatory statements attacking women, gays and lesbians, African-Americans and Hispanic-Americans. Heston, as detailed in a full-page ad in The New York Times this morning, is expected to challenge Barbra Streisand, the movie's producer, to a "one-on-one" debate about the Second Amendment. He is also expected to denounce the film, which aired last night and told the story of the 1993 Long Island Railroad shooting and the subsequent campaign for the House of Representatives on a pro-gun control platform by Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-N.Y.). VPC Executive Director Josh Sugarmann states, "Once again the NRA has revealed its extremist stripes. Will the real Charlton Heston please stand up? In Hollywood, he calls himself a 'civil rights activist.' Speaking before ultra-conservatives inside the Beltway, he talks of 'white pride.' Heston's remarks go beyond gun control, to the very heart of diversity in America." Heston's statements have been endorsed by David Duke, who on his website states, "I was astounded to read these courageous remarks by Charlton Heston. I am thankful to hear a man with such high esteem say essentially the same things for which I have reviled by the liberal media. His words should be reproduced and put into the hands of every American." Excerpts from the Heston speech follow. The full transcript and video are available from VPC. ------ Excerpts from NRA First Vice President Charlton Heston's Speech Before the Free Congress Foundation, December 1997 The Constitution was handed down to guide us by a bunch of those wise old dead white guys who invented this country. Now, some flinch when I say that. Why? It's true...they were white guys. So were most of the guys who died in Lincoln's name opposing slavery in the 1860s. So why should I be ashamed of white guys? Why is "Hispanic pride" or "black pride" a good thing, while "white pride" conjures up shaved heads and white hoods? Why was the Million Man March on Washington celebrated in the media as progress, while the Promise Keepers March on Washington was greeted with suspicion and ridicule? I'll tell you why: cultural warfare. Mainstream America is depending on you -- counting on you -- to draw your sword and fight for them. These people (mainstream America) have precious little time or resources to battle misguided Cinderella attitudes, the fringe propaganda of the homosexual coalition, the feminists who preach that it's a divine duty for women to hate men, blacks who raise a militant fist with one hand while they seek preference with the other...We've reached that point in time when our national social policy originates on Oprah. I say it's time to pull the plug. Rank-and-file Americans wake up every morning, increasingly bewildered and confused at why their views make them lesser citizens...Heaven help the God-fearing, law-abiding, Caucasian, middle class, Protestant, or -- even worse -- Evangelical Christian, Midwest or Southern, or -- even worse -- rural, apparently straight, or -- even worse -- admittedly heterosexual, gun-owning or -- even worse -- NRA card-carrying, average working stiff, or -- even worse -- male working stiff, because not only don't you count, you're a downright obstacle to social progress. I find my blood pressure rising when Clinton's cultural shock troops participate in homosexual rights fundraisers but boycott gun-rights fundraisers...and then claim it's time to place homosexual men in tents with Boy Scouts, and suggest that sperm donor babies born into lesbian relationships are somehow better served and more loved. Such demands have nothing to do with equality. They're about the currency of cultural war -- money and votes -- and the Clinton camp will let anyone in the tent if there's a donkey on his hat, or a check in the mail or some yen in the fortune cookie. But you don't see many other Hollywood luminaries speaking out on this one, do you? It's not because there aren't any. It's because they can't afford the heat. They dare not speak up for fear of CNN or the IRS or SAG or the ATF or NBC or even WJC. I remember when European Jews feared to admit their faith. The Nazis forced them to wear six-pointed yellow stars sewn on their chests as identity badges...So, what color star will they pin on our coats? There may not be a Gestapo officer on every street corner yet, but the influence on our culture is just as pervasive. -0- /U.S. Newswire 202-347-2770/ 05/04 14:34 Copyright 1998, U.S. Newswire ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. ----------------------- ********************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com with the message: subscribe ignition-point email@address or unsubscribe ignition-point email@address ********************************************** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Will Thompson Subject: [Fwd: Private Arsenals and Public Peril] Date: 07 May 1998 12:53:48 -0600 Received: from [192.40.29.55] by toro.phbtsus.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA28767; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:31:31 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from wanderer.ssi by philipsdvs.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA29403; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:31:15 -0600 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by wanderer.ssi (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA22194; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:25:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "wanderer.ssiinc.com" via SMTP by localhost, id smtpdAAAa005QE; Thu May 7 09:24:55 1998 Message-Id: <181C8655E8E@law1.law.ucla.edu> Errors-To: volokh@law.ucla.edu Reply-To: firearmsreg@ssiinc.com Originator: firearmsreg@ssiinc.com Sender: firearmsreg@ssiinc.com Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas ------------- Begin Forwarded Message ------------- Excerpt from today's New England Journal of Medicine http://www.nejm.org/public/1998/0338/0019/TOC/1.htm I suggest comments addressed to Dr. Kassirer about the large number of Americans injured and killed by medical mistakes and drug reactions and interactions along with additional controls and registration of mistake making doctors be directed to comments@nejm.org You might also suggest criminalizing the more egregious cases! jab Though we may never know precisely why the boys did what they did, we certainly know how. They first tried to break into the 11-year-old boy's parents' cache of firearms, but failing that, took three guns from unsecured places in that house. They then broke a window in the basement of the same boy's grandfather's house and removed many more firearms. Positioning themselves in the woods the length of a football field away from the school door, they opened fire. Telescopic sights helped their aim: 27 rounds hit their targets. Given these facts, how can anyone accept the contorted logic that lawful arms ownership has nothing to do with this tragedy, or that this is not a gun issue? The vast array of powerful firearms available to the boys is remarkable. Would the carnage have been so great if the boys had been unable to gain access to the grandfather's private arsenal? Would so many people be dead if such lethal weapons had not been in either collection? Parenthetically, it goes without saying that even a single semiautomatic weapon left loaded, unlocked, and accessible is a dangerous arsenal in itself. Does anyone need to have a private arsenal of high-powered weapons? They are of no value for hunting, and their use for target practice seems dispensable. They are certainly not needed for protection against crime. Moreover, they are worse than useless. In recent years, large stashes of firearms have figured importantly in other major losses of life. Hundreds of guns were found at Waco, and cash from the sale of stolen weapons was used to build the bomb that devastated the federal building in Oklahoma City. Children and adolescents are by definition immature, and many lack judgment. Life's embarrassments, rejections, and torments may send them into fits of temper, even rage, and may prompt a desire for revenge. Impulsively, some children lash out at others and at themselves. Nonetheless, they are only murderous when they have the means, and a loaded gun is the "perfect tool." We must ratchet down our nation's firepower. It is time to eliminate semiautomatic firearms from private homes. The 1994 federal ban on new assault weapons with high-capacity ammunition clips must be tightened to stop the manufacture and sale of military weapons modified to have a sporting appearance. A ban on these large ammunition clips should also include those produced before 1994. Kits to convert semiautomatic weapons into fully automatic machine guns should be outlawed. A federal code for storing firearms in the home should be developed, and all firearms should be registered with local authorities. It is time to end the firearm industry's status as America's last unregulated industry; a federal agency should be given standard-setting authority over the industry and its products. It is also time to lay to rest the myth that keeping firearms in the home protects people against personal injury. (7) Obvious, serious methodologic errors in the design of surveys that purport to demonstrate a protective effect invalidate such conclusions. (8,9) Mass shootings such as the one in Jonesboro are avoidable, as are local epidemics of gun-related suicide in teenagers. It would take political will to buck the well-funded lobbies of the gun manufacturers and the National Rifle Association. So far, unfortunately, few courageous legislators have stepped up to the plate. Our children are murdering our children. Oliver North, the former Iran-Contra figure, now a radio personality, said recently that it would be unconscionable for gun-control advocates to try to make political hay out of the Jonesboro shooting. (6) Quite the contrary, in my opinion. Perhaps it is still possible to derive some good from this unspeakable tragedy. Jerome P. Kassirer, M.D. ------------- End Forwarded Message ------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: piml] Gun-totin' urban Jewish liberal lady (fwd) -Forwarded Date: 08 May 1998 10:03:44 -0700 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Sat, 02 May 1998 08:33:42 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id KAA14567; Sat, 2 May 1998 10:31:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma014432; Sat May 2 10:28:52 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: gonzalez@mcs.net Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Folks--- Thought that you should see this one! ---David ---------- Forwarded message ---------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- - From Gun-Shy to Target Shooter: A Journey of Discovery by Riva Freifeld "Are you ready?" the range officer behind me asks. I nod, and take one last peek at the row of targets in the sand. The buzzer goes off. I run forward, draw my Para-Ordnance P-13 from its nylon holster and line up the sights. I pull the trigger. The gun goes bang. The steel falls over. My first IPSC match has begun. What exactly is a 51 year old half-Canadian New York Jewish liberal woman, public television producer, doing out on Long Island on a hot August Sunday with a bunch of mostly younger guys who do this every weekend? A little over a year ago I was someone who had never touched a gun, didn't know anyone who owned guns, and, to the extent that I thought about them at all, thought only the police should have them. One day my sister called to tell me that her son had been shot accidentally in the arm by another kid who was playing with his father's loaded home defense gun. What outraged both of us was the fact that the father could not be criminally prosecuted for negligence. So I decided to make a documentary for PBS about the evils of guns in our society. I started my research by calling my ex-husband, a mystery writer who had always owned a few guns. He suggested I take up target shooting, so I could get to know gun owners, which would make it easier for me to get interviews. I went down to New York's rather seedy Westside Pistol Range, and started the arduous application process which would result, approximately six months later, in a license for target shooting only. In the meantime, I would get some "instruction" from Darren, the range officer. Later that day, Darren showed me how a Browning Buckmark .22 worked and explained the safety rules. We went out to the firing line. I pulled the trigger. Bang. This is kind of fun, I thought, as I went bang a few more times and actually hit the black circle. It became even more fun as I got better at it. The next time, I tried a S&W .38, a Beretta .380, then a Browning Hi-Power. I started to learn that guns themselves are not inherently evil. I then discovered a forum on CompuServe where the politics of guns were discussed. I remember reading a few messages and thinking, these people are saying things that make a lot of sense. Yes, we do have a right to our own self-defense. Banning guns won't deprive criminals of them. Having a gun around isn't going to make people automatically go crazy and shoot each other. And I thought to myself, becoming competent with firearms is probably the ultimate thing a woman can do for self-protection. But I was picking up something else that concerned me. Most gun owners seemed to be stereotypical conservatives. Not fiscal conservatives, not law-and-order conservatives (which I could relate to), but the kind that make us urban liberals most uncomfortable, the family values, anti-abortion, Christian Coalition folks. There seemed to be a lot of talk about "personal freedom", but it wasn't my idea of freedom. It was often a code word for something else. They seemed to be primarily interested in bashing liberals. I had little in common with these people. One day I saw a message from a Phill Jackson, of Democrats for the Second Amendment. He was the first person I actually contacted. What he said made a lot of sense, and clarified for me what I had begun to feel. Gun rights and the right to self-defense are actually part of classical liberalism, the Jeffersonian kind. This was exciting, because I was already extremely disenchanted with the Democratic party. I was sick of the political correctness, sick of their using my tax money to pay for problems they created. I began to realize that I agreed with the conservatives on certain issues, that I could actually talk to ...Republicans! I then met other gun rights activists on the forum. A bright articulate engineer from Washington who played a key role in Speaker Foley's downfall [...] *** [Stand up and take a well-deserved bow, Mr. Hartman! ---DMG] [...] A woman member of an upstate New York militia. The Jewish moderator of a pro-RKBA internet mailing list. A top computer programmer for IBM who used to be anti-gun. What I realized is that all of these people, while claiming to be conservatives, shared many of my liberal beliefs. Some of them defined themselves as libertarians, others said "big government" was what turned them away from the Democratic party. All of them agreed that the gun issue was paramount. It was a barometer of government's respect for its citizens. As my feelings about guns changed, so did the proposal for my film. I rewrote it. But I soon found that many sources of funding were now closed to me. Saying anything positive about guns is unacceptable in the Northeast. I quickly learned why. It was not about guns, it was about being a liberal or a conservative. The media only understands the stereotypes. You can't be associated with anything "those people" believe in. And the gun issue to them is irrevocably associated with conservatives. In the meantime, I have acquired a .22, a 9mm, and a .45. I've taken LFI1, and have started competing. An outdoor range in Staten Island is where I went for bullseye, steel plate, and silhouette matches. Most of my friends disapprove. They don't know what they're missing. Riva Freifeld lives in New York City's liberal Democratic Upper West Side. She is a independent documentary filmmaker and editor. [PGP stuff snipped] - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Re: Wal-mart -Forwarded Date: 08 May 1998 11:04:37 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id RAA22526; Thu, 7 May 1998 17:32:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma022261; Thu May 7 17:30:40 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: BMichael@aol.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Just received... >Thank you for taking the time to share your concerns with Wal-Mart >regarding a local fundraiser by the Missourians Against Handgun >Violence (MAHV). > >After reviewing this matter further, we have canceled the event and >it will not be rescheduled. > >We appreciate your interest. > > >Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: News from the GOP convention Date: 09 May 1998 14:28:10 -0600 I'll write more later, but for now, most interesting to most here is probably the fact that Senator Stephensen managed to avoid a primary race. It is a safe bet the UEA will be pumping a lot of support to his oppositon as will the gun-phobes--many of whom seem to control the UEA/NEA. He will be in need of our support. Also of interest, Jeremy Freidembaum (I know I've misspelled his last name) just managed to force a primary against Cannon. -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by rule of construction be conceived to give the Congress the power to disarm the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some general pretense by a state legislature. But if in blind pursuit of inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be appealed to as a restraint on both." -- William Rawle, 1825; considered academically to be an expert commentator on the Constitution. He was offered the position of the first Attorney General of the United States, by President Washington. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry larsen" Subject: Fw: Agreement reached in landmark Utah land swap Date: 10 May 1998 08:13:04 -0600 Looks like our good gov, as made a "good" deal for all of us. BS. -----Original Message----- Ravenvolk; Salt Lake City. In a rare moment of bipartisanship, Interior Secretary Bruce Babbitt and Utah Gov. Mike Leavitt announced an agreement that is being called the largest land swap in the history of the continental United States. Ending a debate over Utah trust lands that had simmered for six decades. Babbitt and Leavitt broke the deadlock, Friday after intense one-on-one negotiations. The federal government will get 376,739 acres of Utah schools lands sprinkled through national forests, parks and monuments and the mineral rights to others. In exchange, Utah schools get $50 million in cash as well as minerals and 145,000 acres outside the parks and areas proposed for wilderness. Congress and President Clinton still must approve the deal, which Leavitt has called "the largest public land exchange in the continental United States." Utah also is dropping two lawsuits against the federal gov., one challenging Clinton's 1996 creation of the 1.7 million-acre Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument in southern Utah and another seeking a ruling on the value of 240,000 acres of state land within federal boundaries. Friday's ceremonial signing was a rare moment in conservative Utah as Babbitt, a Democratic cabinet member, was lauded along with the Republican governor by Utah's entire Republican congressional delegation. ( Ohhhhhhhhhh it's a political thing.) If the federal gov., keeps taking land there will be no place to shoot, how about that? Raveness Jerri Lenehan Daniel 1:4 Children in whom was no blemish, but well-favored, and skillful in all wisdom, an cunning in knowledge, and understanding science, and such as had ability in them to stand in the kings palace, and whom they might teach learning and the tongue of the chal-de'-ans. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry larsen" Subject: Fw: Agreement reached in landmark Utah land swap Date: 10 May 1998 08:13:49 -0600 Explaination of good land deal -----Original Message----- Raveness Jerri-- Let's see if I got this right. Utah trades 376,739 acres of presumably prime land (otherwise why would the Feds want it) with mineral rights for $50 million cash and 145,000 acres of Federal land. Hmmmm! Assuming the acre for acre land being exchanged is equal in value, that means that Utah sold some of it's school trust lands for just under $216 per acre which includes the mineral rights. I wonder if they have any more of that $216/acre land available. DOG/DVC Fred -----Original Message----- >Ravenvolk; >Salt Lake City. In a rare moment of bipartisanship, Interior Secretary Bruce >Babbitt and Utah Gov. Mike Leavitt announced an agreement that is being called >the largest land swap in the history of the continental United States. Ending >a debate over Utah trust lands that had simmered for six decades. Babbitt and >Leavitt broke the deadlock, Friday after intense one-on-one negotiations. > >The federal government will get 376,739 acres of Utah schools lands sprinkled >through national forests, parks and monuments and the mineral rights to >others. >In exchange, Utah schools get $50 million in cash as well as minerals and >145,000 acres outside the parks and areas proposed for wilderness. > >Congress and President Clinton still must approve the deal, which Leavitt has >called "the largest public land exchange in the continental United States." > >Utah also is dropping two lawsuits against the federal gov., one challenging >Clinton's 1996 creation of the 1.7 million-acre Grand Staircase-Escalante >National Monument in southern Utah and another seeking a ruling on the value >of 240,000 acres of state land within federal boundaries. > >Friday's ceremonial signing was a rare moment in conservative Utah as Babbitt, >a Democratic cabinet member, was lauded along with the Republican governor by >Utah's entire Republican congressional delegation. ( Ohhhhhhhhhh it's a >political thing.) If the federal gov., keeps taking land there will be no >place to shoot, how about that? > > Raveness Jerri Lenehan > >Daniel 1:4 >Children in whom was no blemish, but well-favored, and skillful in all wisdom, >an cunning in knowledge, and understanding science, and such as had ability in >them to stand in the kings palace, and whom they might teach learning and the >tongue of the chal-de'-ans. > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Salt Lake City Weekly electronic poll on Utah's gun laws. Date: 11 May 1998 14:29:52 -0600 I received the following from former USSC lobbyist Scott Engen. My comments follow his. >The Salt Lake City Weekly, a local "alternative" newspaper with a stridently >anti-gun, anti-hunting and anti-conserative editorial slant is conducting an >electronic e-mail poll on the issue of Utah's concealed firearms laws. > >To quote their invitation to make your opinion known on the subject: > >"The concealed weapons debate is on fire in Utah-tell us where in Salt Lake >City you most feel the burning desire for cold steel in the grip of your >sweaty, shaking palm." > >You may give your opinion on firearms freedom and protecting your right to >protect yourself by carrying a firearm without restriction under the authority >of a Utah concealed firearms permit by visiting the their website. > >The address is www.slweekly.com > >It is suggested that you IMMEDATELY voice your support for maintaining the >current "without restriction" provisions of Utah law. > >Please forward this information IMMEDIATELY to your friends, family members >and fellow firearms owners so they can participate as well. > >Thank you. > The comments below are mine. I checked out the site, but couldn't get any poll to appear. However, if you check out "City Beat", you can read David Madison's stridently anti-gun article "Guns don't kill people, kids do." (During our interview, I told Mr. Madison that I believed that the First and Second Amendments were co-equal. He told me that was nonsense and that he "didn't buy it". So much for unbiased reporting. HE has rights. _I_ don't.) Comments can be sent to comments@slweekly.com Sarah Thompson (for myself) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: [Fwd: Permanent Brady Info] -Forwarded Date: 11 May 1998 16:44:26 -0700 Received: from (lizard) [166.70.8.172] by mail.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yYiVR-0003cX-00; Sun, 10 May 1998 20:39:58 -0600 Message-ID: <355666A9.4A54@xmission.com> Reply-To: ajgaunt@xmission.com Organization: XMission X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------C216E2C4ACE" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C216E2C4ACE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI and action. --------------C216E2C4ACE Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: Envelope-to: ajgaunt@xmission.com Delivery-date: Sun, 10 May 1998 17:05:56 -0600 Received: from (imo21.mx.aol.com) [198.81.17.65] by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yYfAJ-0007Xw-00; Sun, 10 May 1998 17:05:55 -0600 Received: from TJJOHNSTN@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4SHOa02431 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:53:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 The ATF has published proposed regulations for the PERMANENT Brady Law. You may comment, but comments must be received before May 20. Don't guess. Download the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking and participate. http://www.atf.treas.gov/core/firearms/rules/notice857.htm --------------C216E2C4ACE-- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: A Surprise -Forwarded Date: 11 May 1998 16:53:58 -0700 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:45:27 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id RAA05607; Mon, 11 May 1998 17:43:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma005549; Mon May 11 17:40:51 1998 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980511214146.008d35cc@inet.skillnet.com> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: rlh@recon.org Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list I did NOT expect to see the conclusion of this article. I was following some relatively "politically correct" links on the Web, started reading this, and couldn't believe my eyes. ----- A major concern these days is the high crime rate. How much of that is due to the actual crime rate and how much is due to media sources that thrive on being alarmist and stressing the bad is a possible subject for debate, but it's certainly true that crime is a "bad thing" that we should try to reduce as much as possible. The traditional answers all center on police, the legal system, and/or the prison system. I think those three lumped together are often what is meant by "the justice system" (though that term is also used to mean just the courts), so that's how I'll use it here until someone suggests a better term. Speaking as one who has had more opportunities than most (and certainly more than I ever wanted) to observe our justice system in action, I can say that I've often wondered what it's for. It is patently obvious to me that whatever we have all these cops and lawyers for, it certainly is not for the benefit of the average honest citizen. In fact, I have deduced that the primary function of our justice system is to keep honest citizens in line. Go sit in any courtroom for a day and see what cases are typically tried. The most common will be traffic cases. Notice how our manpower is allocated. What do police spend their time on? Are overdue library books and illegal left turns more important than murder and robbery? They are in our justice system, but is that how you would allocate priorities? This is especially obvious around here. I live in a rural area where local police functions are handled by the county sheriff's department. A good big chunk of the deputies never leave the office, but handle internal matters like running the county jail and lining up juries. Of the ones that actually do get out and ride around, I am told that 90% or better of what they do is serve papers on people. After that, they spend time on local speed traps and checking cars for radar detectors (which are illegal around here for some strange reason). This leaves them with no extra manpower for dealing with the crack dealers and other assorted crimes. One resident in this town has had a building of hers demolished by trespassers and vandals and many others fear for their lives if they go out at night -- or even if they stay home! Again, how would you allocate priorities? Okay, I've ranted enough about the problem. How about answers? First of all, there aren't a whole lot of resources to spend on it. We all know the Federal government is downsizing (which many, including me, regard as a good thing). At the local level things are even worse. Here in this town our annual town budget is so small we almost qualify for food stamps. Given the whole historic trend of the justice system, more cops, lawyers, and jails isn't going to be the answer. We need to look more closely at the fundamentals. Consider crime as a career alternative. It is, you know. Granted it's not a viable alternative for me or you. The consequences of being caught would be far too great -- we have too much to lose. But consider, of all the things we're not willing to risk sacrificing, there are lots and lots of people who don't have those things. For someone in that position, consider the advantages: 1.No education requirements. 2.No previous experience needed. 3.No startup capital required in most cases, and minimal capital required in any case. 4.Flexible work hours. 5.Be your own boss. 6.Medical and retirement plans provided free by the government. 7.Low risk. Low risk? Well, yes. The odds of being apprehended at all are very low, and even if you are arrested you'll get free legal assistance, and the odds of actually going to jail are pretty low too. On top of that, how bad is going to jail? The Supreme Court has ruled that it can't be too unpleasant, and most especially it can't be bad for you. Given this state of affairs, it's no wonder that lots of people with nothing else going for them are opting for crime as a career path. How can we change it? About the only advantages cited above that can be altered by an act of political will (meaning your vote) are the benefits package and the low risk. There are sufficient problems with getting rid of Medicare and Social Security that it isn't practical as an anti-crime measure, and it wouldn't work anyway. Muggers would simply be on par with any other self-employed person in having to provide their own benefits. That leaves the low-risk factor as the only thing practical to change. The usual answer is to increase the risk by hiring more cops and lawyers, making jails more unpleasant, and so forth, but I've already discussed why that won't help. Suffice to say that for someone with nothing jail is not a punishment but a reward, since for some term of years food, clothing, and housing will be supplied free. So here's the answer: Greatly liberalize the concealed-carry laws. Make it possible (easy, even) for any honest citizen who wants one to tote a gun in his/her back pocket or purse. Very few will, and very few need to. If only one percent of the people were packing at any given time, then a mugger would have a one out of a hundred chance of getting shot at during any given crime, or an 18% chance of being shot at before mugging twenty people. This changes crime from a career alternative to a gigantic form of Russian Roulette. Oooh, scary! Won't a lot of people get shot? Well, yes, but consider who is going to be shot at. I predict that if, say, New York City went with liberal concealed carry laws, then very shortly there would be a lot of dead muggers, and then it would settle down quickly with a much lower crime rate. People would be more polite, too. But won't ordinary citizens start shooting each other if they're all armed all the time? Well, no. Ordinary citizens still stand to lose too much if convicted of a crime, and it would still be a crime to shoot somebody without a darned good reason like self defense. Remember, that's what our justice system is good at -- keeping honest people in line. But isn't it dangerous to take on an armed mugger by yourself? Yep, sure is. The media has really beaten this one to death over the years. Remember, just because you could carry a gun doesn't mean you have to. And even if you are carrying a gun, that doesn't mean you have to use it. Anyone who wants to would still be perfectly free to be as nonviolent and as nonthreatening as they like. Anyone who feels differently would be able to accept the risks if they so decide. It's called making a personal choice, and it's supposed to be highly regarded in this country. What about innocent bystanders? What about them? What about crime victims, for that matter? Consider that a greatly reduced rate of violent crime would result in far fewer things to be innocently standing by in the first place, which results in lower risk for everyone. Consider also the innocent bystanders on occasions like the nut who opened fire in a restaurant in Texas, or the nut who started shooting on a Long Island commuter train. In both of those cases, the gunman stopped to reload at least once, giving a perfect opening for an armed innocent bystander to stop the killing, except there were no armed innocent bystanders, so lots of other innocent bystanders are now dead. So why concealed carry? Why not open carry? (Visions of Gary Cooper walking down the dusty main street.) A few reasons: 1.The idea is to increase risk in the mugging lifestyle. Carrying a visible gun is like putting The Club on your steering wheel. It might keep your car from being stolen, but it doesn't do much about car theft in general. 2.A gun can be a provocation, but only if it's visible. 3.It causes comment, and can make for awkward social situations. This is undoubtedly the main reason why open carry is unusual in places where it is legal. 4.It can make the owner a target. If a madman is scoping out a restaurant for his little shooting spree, and sees one person carrying openly, guess where the first shot goes? Well anyway, there's my $1.57 (or $0.02 in seasonally adjusted 1965 dollars). - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Payback time for ALL gunowners! (Time to dump Cunneen) Date: 11 May 1998 17:40:49 -0700 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Mon, 11 May 1998 17:22:07 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id TAA12853; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:20:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma012766; Mon May 11 19:18:54 1998 Message-Id: <3557798C.77268C10@ix.netcom.com> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: cyrano@ix.netcom.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Is your freedom worth $5? How about $10 or $20? Do you believe in your right to defend your family from violent criminals? Do you believe we should punish violent criminals instead of law-abiding gun owners? If you answered =93yes=94 to these questions, your help is urgently needed. During the next few weeks, gun owners have a unique opportunity to teach the anti-gunners an important lesson, to remind the Republican party it cannot ignore gun owners, and to punish a turncoat Republican who stabbed us in the back. Here's what it's all about: In the 1997 session, the California Legislature nearly passed AB 23, the onerous =93Assault Weapons Ban=94 wh= ich would have significantly infringed on our inalienable right to self defense. Thanks to the heroic efforts of the NRA Members Councils, Gun Owners of California, Gun Owners of America and the NRA, this bill was narrowly defeated. But that wasn't the end of it. AB 23 is back, and worse than ever. Any handgun which can =93accept=94 a magazine with a capacity of 19 or more rounds would be an =93assault weapon.=94 Of course, virtually any semi-au= to handgun meets this definition. Assemblyman Jim Cunneen (24th Assembly District, Santa Clara) voted in favor of AB 23 each time. He's a Republican. He's supposed to understand the Constitution and be on our side. However, despite intense pressure brought to bear by pro-Second Amendment activists, Assemblyman Cunneen has steadfastly opposed our right to self defense. Here's the good news: Mr. Cunneen is running for re-election next month. Here's the better news: Donna Courtwright, his opponent, is a staunch Second Amendment supporter who regularly attends her local Member's Council meetings. The plan is for gunowners from the whole country to knock Mr. Cunneen out of the race in the primary stage. Remember the old saying: As California goes, so goes the nation. If we do this, it will get state and national attention. There are two simple steps: (1) make a financial donation (as much as you can spare) to Donna Courtwright and (2) send a photocopy of your donation to Mr. Cunneen. Please be sure to indicate your name, address, occupation and employer when you make a donation. Here are the addresses: Donna Courtwright 2464 El Camino Real, Suite 34 Santa Clara, CA 95051 (408) 378-1908 Assemblyman Jim Cunneen 901 Campisi Way, #300 Campbell, CA 95008 (408) 369-8170 -- Steve Silver - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: What I wrote vs. what they print - WASHINGTON POST Date: 12 May 1998 10:32:52 -0700 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Mon, 11 May 1998 06:16:23 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id IAA19107; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:14:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma019031; Mon May 11 08:13:29 1998 Message-Id: <8d1f2c06.35562180@aol.com> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: EdgarSuter@aol.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list WHAT THEY PRINT: LET'S SEE IF I GOT BOB THOMPSON'S scorecard correct. The heroic public health researchers: Brian Wiersema is a "soft-spoken man, tall and handsome in a Clark Kent-ish way." Arthur Kellermann "speaks with a warm drawl," while Mark Rosenberg "cracks a tiny smile." The merchants of death: Gary Kleck is "scornful" and "angry." Paul Blackman uses information for "rhetorical escalation." Don B. Kates Jr. "has muddied the waters of truth so thoroughly that wading into them is a daunting task." My scorecard reads a bit differently. My articles in the peer-reviewed medical literature notedmany invalidating errors in the methodology and interpretation in Kellermann's research. Is it any wonder that the nation turns to the Internet to avoid your transparent propaganda? Is there really any doubt who has muddied the waters of truth? EDGAR A. SUTER WHAT I WROTE: Dear Editor, Let's see if I got Trigger Point's (Bob Thompson, Sunday, March 29, 1998; Page W12) scorecard correct. The heroic public health researchers: Wiersema is a "soft-spoken man, tall and handsome in a Clark Kent-ish way." Teret "talks," Wiersema "says," Cook "works," Wintemute "seeks," Christoffel "creates, " and Kellermann "discovers" and "speaks with a warm drawl" while Rosenberg "evangelizes" while he "cracks a smile." Public health is a "can-do culture" doing "sophisticated data collection." The merchants of death: Gun rights advocates "howl." Kleck is "scornful" and "angry" while his research is "deployed" A "rumpled" Blackman "stockpiles information" for "rhetorical escalation." Kates "damns the many for the sins of the few" and "displays no trace of embarrassment over his own relationship with the gun lobby" and has "has muddied the waters of truth so thoroughly that wading into them is a daunting task." I "crow" that Congress unfunded CDC's incompetent and politicized research and I am the guy who reached for my pistol because 3 innocent lads were "coming at [me]." My scorecard reads a bit differently. As I explicitly told your reporter, I was attacked by 3 gang-bangers who demanded money as they tried to pin me against a brick wall before I reached for my pistol. My first article in the peer-reviewed medical literature noted four dozen substantive invalidating errors in the methodology and interpretation in Kellermann's "peer reviewed" research. My subsequent articles and publications have also noted Kellermann's habitual pattern of false and fabricated citations and, "embarrassment" or not, his membership in Christoffel's radical gun prohibition group, a group so radical that, in response to a discussion of Hemenway's flawed and biased methodology in a "peer reviewed" article, exhorted her associates not to engage in scientific discourse, but to "dig up some dirt" on our think tank. "Handsome" Wiersema is the guy who, in the face of Washington DC's tripled homicide rate, published "peer reviewed" articles that pretended DC's gun freeze had reduced homicide and, in attempting to portray concealed handgun licensing (like mine) as dangerous, "studied" a couple of Florida cities in which homicide rates increased while ignoring dramatic statewide homicide rate reductions. Honesty fares no better in the hands of the rest of the prohibitionist "usual suspects," but space limitations intrude. Is it any wonder that the nation turns to the internet to avoid your transparent and amusing propaganda? Is there really any doubt who "has muddied the waters of truth so thoroughly that wading into them is a daunting task"? Still "crowing," Edgar A. Suter MD National Chair Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research Inc. 5201 Norris Canton Rd. #220 San Ramon CA 94583 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: [byron@code-co.com: Proposed Court Rules] Date: 12 May 1998 11:55:49 -0600 THis may be of interest to somebody here. ----BEGIN FORWARDED MESSGE---- X-Sender: byron@code-co.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1475 Code-Co's INTERNET ACCESS TO UTAH LAW Update ============================================ TOPIC: Changes to Utah Court Rules The Administrative Office of the Courts requests comments on proposed amendments to various Utah Court Rules. Changes are being proposed to the following sets of rules: Utah Rules of Civil Procedure Utah Rules of Appellate Procedure Utah Rules of Evidence Code of Judicial Administration Rules of Professional Conduct Rules of Lawyer Discipline and Disability The comment period runs from now until July 6, 1998. You can see exactly what is being changed (no subscription required) by clicking on the 'Proposed Rule Amendments' link on this page: http://www.code-co.com/utah/court Hope you find this useful. Byron Harward Webmaster Code-Co Law Publishers 1-800-255-5294 byron@code-co.com You received this update either because you are as subscriber to our service or you registered for updates and a free password on our webpage. If you are not a subscriber and wish not to receive these messages, please reply to the message with "remove from updates" in the SUBJECT LINE. You will receive an automatic acknowledgment that your request was received and we will remove you from the list. Please feel free to use our 800 number to reach us with any problems. If you know others that would like to receive these updates, please have them register on the web at: http://www.code-co.com/utah/regut.htm or email me directly. ----END FORWARDED MESSAGE---- -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by rule of construction be conceived to give the Congress the power to disarm the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some general pretense by a state legislature. But if in blind pursuit of inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be appealed to as a restraint on both." -- William Rawle, 1825; considered academically to be an expert commentator on the Constitution. He was offered the position of the first Attorney General of the United States, by President Washington. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Excellent piece on McCarthy and guns Date: 12 May 1998 11:59:18 -0600 This was forwarded to me by Howard Last of NY. >Subject: Excellent piece on McCarthy and guns > >Opinion in Newsday on McCarthy. > >Howard Last > [begin your Research] > >Taking Up Arms Against Rep. McCarthy > >Matthew Carolan; Raymond J. Keating. Matthew Carolan is executive >editor at National Review. Raymond J. Keating is chief economist for >the Small Business Survival Committee. > >IF THE recent flap between Charlton Heston and Barbra Streisand over >"The Long Island Incident," says anything, it says that even Ben Hur >would be hard pressed to defeat Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-Mineola) this >fall. The suffering she endured in the Long Island Rail Road massacre >has even her most ardent opponents at the National Rifle Association >walking on eggshells when criticizing her legislative responses to her >tragedy. Yet unless criticisms are made, McCarthy's re-election >campaign, to the chagrin of many, will be a sequel. > Local Republicans, including Assem. Greg Becker (R-Lynbrook), >McCarthy's likely opponent, cannot win a popularity contest or a debate >about constituent service. McCarthy still enjoys too much good will for >that. Becker has no choice but to address McCarthy's image and take >advantage of his opportunities. Politics is about defining your >opponent. > For example, McCarthy's voting record shows she is liberal. She has >an 80 percent rating from the leftist Americans for Democratic Action >and a 16 percent rating from the American Conservative Union, based on >her support for the National Endowment for the Arts, for cuts in the >military budget, and voting against school choice and parental >notification in family planning matters, etc. She is also, as >Streisand's film demonstrated, a darling of the liberal media. The >film's fictitious elements - i.e., distorting Second Amendment history > - were defended in some quarters as necessary "propaganda" to combat >the evil NRA. > That leads to the issue of guns. McCarthy made her name by >attacking predecessor Rep. Dan Frisa's vote against the federal ban on >so-called "assault weapons," and she continues to demonize the NRA after >tragedies like those at the observation deck of the Empire State >Building and in Jonesboro, Ark. But making law in response to tragedies >perpetrated by disturbed people is legislating by hard case, which is >ineffective. No piecemeal legislation can prevent such tragedies, only >a total ban on guns. That in turn leads to dangers of tyranny foreseen >by the founding fathers - and carried out by this century's madmen who >killed millions of people. > Liberal antigun activists write bad laws the same way they try to >reform health care, with an eye toward failure so as to whip the >populace into accepting stronger, more restrictive legislation. The >"assault weapon" about which McCarthy claims such outrage is a case in >point. Contrary to popular belief, it is not an automatic weapon like a >machine gun, and as a class is not significant in crime. The class is >based entirely on what the gun looks like, not how it shoots. The ban >has proved a triumph of symbolism over substance, and a failure, which >only harasses law-abiding gun owners. > Becker must raise these and other aspects of the gun issue because >McCarthy surely will. If he is to defeat this "national icon," he has to >become a national leader on this and other issues, including the very >nature of federal law itself, which cannot always be written, as >McCarthy says, "for the children." It makes - for him - a >tremendous burden, but also a tremendous opportunity. > A final word about children. McCarthy voted against the >partial-birth abortion ban, despite the protestations of the American >Medical Association that it was medically unnecessary. She told The New >York Times Sunday Magazine that her decision was tearful. But in the >end, it all came back to the same thing, the Carolyn McCarthy myth: "I >started to think about gun violence," she said. Her support for abortion >was about "backing" mothers, thereby stopping the "cycle of violence, >which contributes to child abuse, and all the other things that go with >it." > As the Times reporter noted, for Carolyn McCarthy, "everything comes >back to guns" - even defending the violence of abortion. Greg Becker, >take heed. > >Copyright 1998, Newsday Inc. > >Taking Up Arms Against Rep. McCarthy., pp A34. > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: Administrative rules committee review of State Hospital Gun ban Date: 12 May 1998 12:46:43 -0600 I submitted a comment to the State Mental Hospital during their comment period on their proposed total gun ban in which I protested the rule and asked to be kept informed of hearings, etc on the topic. Becuase of that I just received a phone call from an Art Hunsaker on the staff of the Legislative Administrative Rules Review Committee. The Committee will be meeting next Monday, the 18th, at 9:00 am, State Capital Room 305, to review this proposed rule and take public comment. This is the first item on the agenda after approval of prior meeting's minutes. I encourage as many of you as possible to be at the meeting to provide the law-abiding-gun-owners' perspective. Bear in mind that this is the same committee that could review Gov. Mikey's public employee gun ban and overturn it. This could be a good warm-up session for getting to know legislators, process, etc. Sen Stephenson chairs this committee. Once again: Monday, May 18th, 9:00am State Capital, Room 305. Get there early to get a good seat. -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by rule of construction be conceived to give the Congress the power to disarm the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some general pretense by a state legislature. But if in blind pursuit of inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be appealed to as a restraint on both." -- William Rawle, 1825; considered academically to be an expert commentator on the Constitution. He was offered the position of the first Attorney General of the United States, by President Washington. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: It's a free market! -Forwarded Date: 13 May 1998 13:45:41 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id MAA17605; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:27:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma017367; Wed May 13 12:25:08 1998 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980513162420.008d35a8@inet.skillnet.com> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: rlh@recon.org Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list ORLANDO, Fla. (Reuters) - A gun-swap organized by an Orlando radio station nearly misfired Wednesday when local bad guys offered cash instead of sneakers to youths turning in their firearms. Russ Rollins, host of the Russ & Bo Show on WTKS-FM, persuaded local stores and athletes to donate high-priced sports shoes for the "Kicks for Guns" swap. Kicks is a slang word for the shoes. "This was a pretty relaxed afternoon until we heard people were trying to buy the guns," Orlando Police Chief Will Kennedy told Reuters. Individuals set up shop a block away and were offering kids cash instead of sneakers for their guns. "They were all over me," said 14-year-old Shawn, showing off the .38 caliber revolver he was about to hand over to police at the Florida Citrus Bowl. "One guy wanted to give me $50. Then another guy said $70. Then another guy said $80." - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Excellent piece on McCarthy and guns -Forwarded -Forwarded Date: 13 May 1998 13:56:50 -0700 Received: from WVC-Message_Server by wp.ci.west-valley.ut.us with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 12 May 1998 17:01:42 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0yZJKt-0003lT-00; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:59:31 -0600 Received: from (mail.xmission.com) [198.60.22.22] by lists.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0yZJKq-0003lI-00; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:59:28 -0600 Received: from (mars.aros.net) [207.173.16.20] by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yZJKo-0000TG-00; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:59:26 -0600 Received: from sarahtho (dm7-31.slc.aros.net [207.173.24.80]) by mars.aros.net (8.8.7/8.8.4) with SMTP id LAA10562 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:57:16 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980512115918.00d69c40@aros.net> X-Sender: righter@aros.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-utah-firearms@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: utah-firearms@lists.xmission.com This was forwarded to me by Howard Last of NY. >Subject: Excellent piece on McCarthy and guns > >Opinion in Newsday on McCarthy. > >Howard Last > [begin your Research] > >Taking Up Arms Against Rep. McCarthy > >Matthew Carolan; Raymond J. Keating. Matthew Carolan is executive >editor at National Review. Raymond J. Keating is chief economist for >the Small Business Survival Committee. > >IF THE recent flap between Charlton Heston and Barbra Streisand over >"The Long Island Incident," says anything, it says that even Ben Hur >would be hard pressed to defeat Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-Mineola) this >fall. The suffering she endured in the Long Island Rail Road massacre >has even her most ardent opponents at the National Rifle Association >walking on eggshells when criticizing her legislative responses to her >tragedy. Yet unless criticisms are made, McCarthy's re-election >campaign, to the chagrin of many, will be a sequel. > Local Republicans, including Assem. Greg Becker (R-Lynbrook), >McCarthy's likely opponent, cannot win a popularity contest or a debate >about constituent service. McCarthy still enjoys too much good will for >that. Becker has no choice but to address McCarthy's image and take >advantage of his opportunities. Politics is about defining your >opponent. > For example, McCarthy's voting record shows she is liberal. She has >an 80 percent rating from the leftist Americans for Democratic Action >and a 16 percent rating from the American Conservative Union, based on >her support for the National Endowment for the Arts, for cuts in the >military budget, and voting against school choice and parental >notification in family planning matters, etc. She is also, as >Streisand's film demonstrated, a darling of the liberal media. The >film's fictitious elements - i.e., distorting Second Amendment history > - were defended in some quarters as necessary "propaganda" to combat >the evil NRA. > That leads to the issue of guns. McCarthy made her name by >attacking predecessor Rep. Dan Frisa's vote against the federal ban on >so-called "assault weapons," and she continues to demonize the NRA after >tragedies like those at the observation deck of the Empire State >Building and in Jonesboro, Ark. But making law in response to tragedies >perpetrated by disturbed people is legislating by hard case, which is >ineffective. No piecemeal legislation can prevent such tragedies, only >a total ban on guns. That in turn leads to dangers of tyranny foreseen >by the founding fathers - and carried out by this century's madmen who >killed millions of people. > Liberal antigun activists write bad laws the same way they try to >reform health care, with an eye toward failure so as to whip the >populace into accepting stronger, more restrictive legislation. The >"assault weapon" about which McCarthy claims such outrage is a case in >point. Contrary to popular belief, it is not an automatic weapon like a >machine gun, and as a class is not significant in crime. The class is >based entirely on what the gun looks like, not how it shoots. The ban >has proved a triumph of symbolism over substance, and a failure, which >only harasses law-abiding gun owners. > Becker must raise these and other aspects of the gun issue because >McCarthy surely will. If he is to defeat this "national icon," he has to >become a national leader on this and other issues, including the very >nature of federal law itself, which cannot always be written, as >McCarthy says, "for the children." It makes - for him - a >tremendous burden, but also a tremendous opportunity. > A final word about children. McCarthy voted against the >partial-birth abortion ban, despite the protestations of the American >Medical Association that it was medically unnecessary. She told The New >York Times Sunday Magazine that her decision was tearful. But in the >end, it all came back to the same thing, the Carolyn McCarthy myth: "I >started to think about gun violence," she said. Her support for abortion >was about "backing" mothers, thereby stopping the "cycle of violence, >which contributes to child abuse, and all the other things that go with >it." > As the Times reporter noted, for Carolyn McCarthy, "everything comes >back to guns" - even defending the violence of abortion. Greg Becker, >take heed. > >Copyright 1998, Newsday Inc. > >Taking Up Arms Against Rep. McCarthy., pp A34. > - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Administrative rules committee review of State Hospital Gun Date: 13 May 1998 13:57:42 -0700 Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0yZK4C-0006wK-00; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:46:20 -0600 Received: from (mail.xmission.com) [198.60.22.22] by lists.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0yZK4A-0006wF-00; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:46:18 -0600 Received: from (yoda.corp.es.com) [130.187.95.61] by mail.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yZK48-0004Z8-00; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:46:17 -0600 Received: by yoda.corp.es.com (8.6.10/e&s/sunos/client/5.1) id MAA22923; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:46:43 -0600 Message-Id: <199805121846.MAA22923@yoda.corp.es.com> Bcc: Sender: owner-utah-firearms@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: utah-firearms@lists.xmission.com I submitted a comment to the State Mental Hospital during their comment period on their proposed total gun ban in which I protested the rule and asked to be kept informed of hearings, etc on the topic. Becuase of that I just received a phone call from an Art Hunsaker on the staff of the Legislative Administrative Rules Review Committee. The Committee will be meeting next Monday, the 18th, at 9:00 am, State Capital Room 305, to review this proposed rule and take public comment. This is the first item on the agenda after approval of prior meeting's minutes. I encourage as many of you as possible to be at the meeting to provide the law-abiding-gun-owners' perspective. Bear in mind that this is the same committee that could review Gov. Mikey's public employee gun ban and overturn it. This could be a good warm-up session for getting to know legislators, process, etc. Sen Stephenson chairs this committee. Once again: Monday, May 18th, 9:00am State Capital, Room 305. Get there early to get a good seat. -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by rule of construction be conceived to give the Congress the power to disarm the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some general pretense by a state legislature. But if in blind pursuit of inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be appealed to as a restraint on both." -- William Rawle, 1825; considered academically to be an expert commentator on the Constitution. He was offered the position of the first Attorney General of the United States, by President Washington. - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Fwd: Live by the Gun, Die by the Gun -Forwarded Date: 13 May 1998 16:07:34 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id QAA10378; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:57:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma010155; Wed May 13 16:56:07 1998 Message-Id: <199805132040.PAA21906@monarch.papillion.ne.us> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: mriddle@monarch.papillion.ne.us Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list ==================BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE================== >Received: from aspensys.com (aspensys3.aspensys.com [198.77.70.84]) by monarch.papillion.ne.us (8.7.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA19682 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:46:00 -0500 (CDT) >Received: (qmail 17055 invoked by uid 221); 13 May 1998 16:43:03 -0000 >Received: (qmail 16430 invoked by alias); 13 May 1998 16:39:02 -0000 >Received: (qmail 16423 invoked from network); 13 May 1998 16:39:01 -0000 >Received: from srv1.aspensys.com (198.77.70.131) > by aspensys.aspensys.com with SMTP; 13 May 1998 16:39:01 -0000 >Received: from proxy.ojp.usdoj.gov by srv1.aspensys.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) > id MAA03344; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:39:00 -0400 >Received: from ojp.usdoj.gov (ojpmail [10.121.16.126]) by proxy.ojp.usdoj.gov (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id MAA26808 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:27:39 -0400 (EDT) >Received: from GATEWAY-Message_Server by ojp.usdoj.gov > with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:37:37 -0400 >Message-Id: >Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:37:16 -0400 >Reply-To: juvjust@aspensys.aspensys.com >Sender: owner-juvjust@aspensys.aspensys.com >Precedence: first-class >From: Earl Appleby >To: juvjust@ncjrs.org >Subject: Live by the Gun, Die by the Gun >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain >Content-Disposition: inline >X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 >X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN > >From the Administrator The deadly mix of kids and guns continues to take its toll on the lives of our youth, their families, and communities. "Live by the Gun, Die by the Gun" will premiere the week of May 16 on Public Broadcasting System (PBS) stations across the Nation. The PBS program will examine why kids are carrying guns in cities and small towns, their devastating impact, resolving conflict peacefully, coping with losing a loved one to gun violence, and how teens are taking action to get guns out of their communities. The special will air on In the Mix, a national PBS weekly series for teens, and will be hosted by actor Billy Baldwin, rap artist Chuck D, and In Mix reporter Andrea Barrow. "Live by the Gun, Die by the Gun" profiles teen ex-gang members in Los Angeles who carried a gun and were seriously injured in gun violence incidents. These same teens are now part of Teens on Target, a program where they are trained to go into schools and conduct workshops with students to show the real effects of gun violence and to change their attitudes. Next, In the Mix travels to the suburbs of New York to look at kids carrying guns outside of the city. In the Mix sees the pain of losing a loved one to gun violence through the eyes of Victor who lost his cousin during the production of this In the Mix special. Victor, who used to carry a gun, talks about the anger he feels following his cousin's death. Barrow, whose friend died of a gunshot wound, sits in on a coping session with a social worker and other teens who are dealing with losing a loved one to gun violence. Later, In the Mix follows them to The Door Youth Center for a performance of "Free Floating Anger," a scene on gun violence, followed by a discussion in which teens speak out on self defense, hanging out with the wrong crowd, and how to walk away from a fight. In the Mix, then, travels to Washington, DC, to catch up with Sarah Brady, Chair of the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence. She points out ways teens can get involved to help pass antigun legislation and urges them to raise awareness among adults. An In the Mix montage highlights programs where teens have worked to reduce gun violence in their communities. Please check the listings for your local PBS station for the time and date "Live by the Gun, Die by the Gun" may air in your area. Further information about the program and related resources, including a free Discussion Guide, is available from the PBS Web site at http://www.pbs.org/wnet/mix. The site also provides information about the In the Mix Gun Violence Prevention Contest. ===================END FORWARDED MESSAGE=================== - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Party Resolutions Date: 14 May 1998 13:18:06 -0700 Some of the folks very involved in the creation of the resolutions presented at the late Republican State Convention have informed me that the POWERS THAT BE have decided to re-write the resolutions passed at that convention by forming an ad hoc committee during a meeting of the Republican State Central Committee. The meeting will occur at 10:00 AM in Room 303 at the State Kapital. Mssrs. Bishop, Hatch, Leavitt et al feel that the resolutions will not stand and will not become party dogma. The resolution people are organizing a gathering of resolution stakeholders to express indignation at the Central Committee meeting and will gather about 15 minutes before (9:45 AM) outside the meeting room (Rm. 303). - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Re: Party Resolutions Date: 14 May 1998 13:41:35 -0600 At 01:18 PM 5/14/98 -0700, you wrote: >Some of the folks very involved in the creation of the resolutions >presented at the late Republican State Convention have informed me that >the POWERS THAT BE have decided to re-write the resolutions passed >at that convention by forming an ad hoc committee during a meeting of >the Republican State Central Committee. The meeting will occur at 10:00 >AM in Room 303 at the State Kapital. Mssrs. Bishop, Hatch, Leavitt et al >feel that the resolutions will not stand and will not become party dogma. >The resolution people are organizing a gathering of resolution >stakeholders to express indignation at the Central Committee meeting and >will gather about 15 minutes before (9:45 AM) outside the meeting room >(Rm. 303). Thanks for the info. But what DAY is this meeting being held? If it's Monday, I'll be there, assuming the Legislative Rules Committee is finished discussing the Utah State Hospital gun ban by 9:45 or 10. Sarah - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Utah State Hospital Gun Ban hearing Date: 14 May 1998 14:04:23 -0600 Charles Hardy previously posted the following, so I'll just repeat it: (Thanks, Charles!) >I submitted a comment to the State Mental Hospital during their >comment period on their proposed total gun ban in which I protested >the rule and asked to be kept informed of hearings, etc on the topic. > >Becuase of that I just received a phone call from an Art Hunsaker on >the staff of the Legislative Administrative Rules Review Committee. >The Committee will be meeting next Monday, the 18th, at 9:00 am, State >Capital Room 305, to review this proposed rule and take public >comment. This is the first item on the agenda after approval of prior >meeting's minutes. I encourage as many of you as possible to be at >the meeting to provide the law-abiding-gun-owners' perspective. > >Bear in mind that this is the same committee that could review >Gov. Mikey's public employee gun ban and overturn it. This could be a >good warm-up session for getting to know legislators, process, etc. >Sen Stephenson chairs this committee. > >Once again: > >Monday, May 18th, 9:00am >State Capital, Room 305. > >Get there early to get a good seat. After some further research, I've found out two other things of which we should be aware. 1) The rules committee focuses ONLY on whether a rule conforms with state law. Therefore any testimony should address the reasons why this rule violates state law. There is no need to get into any other issues, such as the evidence that concealed carry decreases violent crime. 2) Any group may propose a rule change, and the committee must consider and hold hearings on such a proposed rule change. So if you belong to a group which is legitimately concerned with this issue, encourage the group to submit a proposal that protects the rights of law-abiding gun owners. I believe the proposals should be sent to the same address as comments, but I need to check on that for sure. That address is: Danette Faretta-Brady Human Services Mental Health, State Hospital 1300 East Center Street PO Box 270 Provo, UT 84606 (801) 344-4217 (801) 344-4291-fax The sections of Utah Code that deal with this issue are: 76-8-311.1, 76-8-311.3 Hope this is of some help! Sarah (for myself) Sarah Thompson, M.D. http://www.therighter.com GO JAZZ!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Federal Agents gain "right" to murder innocent citizens! Date: 14 May 1998 14:19:50 -0600 "I was just following orders." Does this sound familiar? [home page] [Image] Top News Charge in Ruby Ridge Case Dismissed Sports BOISE, Idaho (AP) -- A federal judge today dismissed state involuntary manslaughter charges against FBI Lotteries sharpshooter Lon Horiuchi, who killed the wife of white separatist Randy Weaver during the 1992 siege International at Ruby Ridge, Idaho. National U.S. District Judge Edward Lodge accepted the Justice Department argument that Horiuchi was acting in the Washington line of duty when he fired and was protected by the Supremacy Clause of the U.S. Constitution, in that he Business was working within the scope of his job. Wall Street Boundary County Prosecutor Denise Woodbury charged Horiuchi last August with firing the shot that went Entertainment through the cabin door and killed Vicki Weaver as she held her baby daughter. Health/Science It was the third death in the 11-day standoff that Regional began when federal marshals maneuvering around the isolated mountain cabin trying to arrest Weaver on a gun charge encountered Weaver's son, Samuel, and his dog. An exchange of gunfire left the 14-year-old boy and Deputy Marshal William Degan dead. Woodbury maintained Horiuchi acted negligently. Horiuchi contended throughout that he was following the procedures set out for dealing with the Ruby Ridge confrontation. ``I think it's a travesty the people of Idaho can't have their day in court with Lon Horiuchi because he's a federal agent,''said Chuck Peterson, one of the attorney's who represented Weaver during the criminal case against him five years ago. ``That seems absurd,'' Peterson said. ``This clearly isn't a vindication of Horiuchi. It's like the Simpson verdict. We all knew he did it. There's just nothing we can do about it.'' Woodbury did not immediately respond to a telephone call requesting comment. But Robert Huntley, the former Idaho Supreme Court justice who was one of the attorneys representing Horiuchi, speculated that an appeal was unlikely. ``I would be surprised if there was anyone who would want to put up the money for an appeal because the judge wrote a very carefully thought-out opinion based on factual circumstances,'' Huntley said. Weaver, who is now living in Montana and writing a book about the incident, and associate Kevin Harris were acquitted of all federal charges, including murder, resulting from the siege. A state charge of murder against Harris filed last August was dismissed under the double jeopardy protection. Another Horiuchi attorney, Patricia Maher, maintained the agent fired with the understanding that Harris was holding a rifle outside the cabin, that Harris was a suspect in Degan's killing and that Harris might open fire on an FBI helicopter that was circling overhead at the time. And the fact that he was charged with involuntary manslaughter meant he acted without malice, she said. The U.S. Justice Department decided in 1994 against prosecuting Horiuchi, or any of his FBI superiors and reaffirmed the decision last year. Larry Potts, once the FBI's No. 2 official, and his chief aide, Danny Coulson, were accused of destroying records to cover up the identity of the official that allowed agents to shoot at any adult male seen outside the Weaver cabin. Potts was suspended and ultimately denied the bureau's No. 2 job. E. Michael Kahoe, former chief of the violent crimes section, was sentenced to 18 months in prison for destroying a report criticizing the bureau's role in the shootout. A $10 million lawsuit filed by Harris against the federal government is pending. Weaver filed a similar lawsuit, which last year resulted in a $3.1 million settlement. =03AP-NY-05-14-98 1559EDT Copyright =A9 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Home | Top of Page 05/14 NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Will Thompson Subject: Re: Federal Agents gain "right" to murder innocent citizens! Date: 14 May 1998 16:13:18 -0600 S. Thompson wrote: > > ``I think it's a travesty the people of Idaho can't > have their day in court with Lon Horiuchi because > he's a federal agent,''said Chuck Peterson, one of > the attorney's who represented Weaver during the ^^^^^^? This was written by the AP? - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: #Death Trap: Oklahoma City# Date: 14 May 1998 17:16:32 -0700 Recently I ordered a book by Chuck Harder & JD Cash, titled #Death Trap: Oklahoma City# This book is an extensive investigation of the bombing and subsequent events of the OK City bombing. Because of a shipping mix up I received and paid for two copies. I called the company that sold me the book and I can return it. However, if anyone is interested in purchasing the extra copy before I send it back, call me at 339-1499. The price including S&H is $23.45. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Re: Federal Agents gain "right" to murder innocent citizens! Date: 14 May 1998 18:29:39 -0600 At 04:13 PM 5/14/98 -0600, you wrote: >S. Thompson wrote: >> >> ``I think it's a travesty the people of Idaho can't >> have their day in court with Lon Horiuchi because >> he's a federal agent,''said Chuck Peterson, one of >> the attorney's who represented Weaver during the > ^^^^^^? >This was written by the AP? > Yup. Got at least two copies now, and they all have the same "typo", assuming you want to give those illiterate idiots the benefit of the doubt. Sarah - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Alert! Heritage River fiasco (fwd) -Forwarded Date: 15 May 1998 09:59:08 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id PAA00370; Tue, 12 May 1998 15:40:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma029934; Tue May 12 15:38:41 1998 Message-Id: <9805121914.0isn@xpresso.seaslug.org> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: noban@xpresso.seaslug.org Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list There goes our Hunting and Fishing..... On May 12, Josh Amos wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Please pass this on! Josh >Subject: Heritage River fiasco > >I am sending an Alert on the American Heritage Rivers Initiative that Pres. >Clinton will select the first 10 rivers to be in the program on May 13. >Once he puts them into the program the communities that are affected cannot >get out. It is a land grab and the President is using his Executive powers >to do it. It will affect all the communities that are next to the rivers >and watersheds. In other words the land next to the land. There will be Non >Governmental Agencies controlling the water and land, and that will affect >farming, fishing, hunting , and living in those areas. They will set up >river navigators and even your local Indian tribes will have control. They >can also use satellites to monitor if communities and people comply. Only >communities that can get 2 U.S. Senators and Supervisors opt to get out. >Please call Senators and Congressman to oppose this land grab. > >Good hunting, >Delbert > >Western Fish and Wildlife Federation, Inc. >"Wolves or Watchdogs, it's hard to say from which the sheep have most to >fear" [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: YOU WILL PAY FOR THIS SOMEDAY (fwd) -Forwarded Date: 15 May 1998 09:51:39 -0700 Received: from legacy.lgcy.com ([209.63.171.101]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Fri, 15 May 1998 09:16:04 -0600 Received: from cor.oz.cc.utah.EDU by legacy.derail.org (NTList 3.02.13) id na668135; Fri, 15 May 1998 09:14:49 -0600 Received: from localhost (shb4391@localhost) by cor.oz.cc.utah.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA14443; Fri, 15 May 1998 09:14:43 -0600 (MDT) X-Sender: shb4391@cor cc: "Dr. E. Jackson Stockwell" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Info: Evaluation version at legacy.lgcy.com X-ListMember: dsagers@ci.west-valley.ut.us [discussion@derail.org] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- This certainly says it better than I ever could. Patty KTAN YOU WILL PAY FOR THIS SOMEDAY By Claire Wolfe *Thursday, May 14, 1998; 4:05 p.m. EDT: BOISE, Idaho (AP) -- A federal judge Thursday dismissed involuntary manslaughter charges against the FBI sharpshooter who killed the wife of white separatist Randy Weaver during the 1992 siege at Ruby Ridge, Idaho. U.S. District Judge Edward Lodge accepted the Justice Department argument that Lon Horiuchi was acting in the line of duty when he fired and was protected by the Supremacy Clause of the U.S. Constitution, which keeps federal agents from state prosecution for actions within the scope of their job.* ----- It is now a federal agent's "duty" to shoot nursing mothers in the face. The argument, "I vass only following orders," which failed the Nazis so righteously at Nuremberg is now enshrined in America. Anything a federal agent does - as long as it can be stretched to be considered within the scope of his job - is now above any state law, anywhere in this land. I just learned a few minutes ago that Horiuchi walked free. I may not be entirely coherent expressing my loathing. He had only been charged with involuntary manslaughter. *Involuntary* manslaughter, for god's sake! It was a token charge. A slap on the wrist. Nothing but a gesture in the direction of justice. It was the least, the very least, we had a right to expect from even an unjust government. Yet for Judge Edward Lodge, Janet Reno and the federal Justice Department, it was too much. Allow one of their own to suffer any consequence for his own actions? Never. Allow a mere rural county government to imagine it could seek even token justice against an aristocrat? Don't be absurd. We are the federal government. We are Supreme. Horiuchi ought to die. Ought at least to spend many years in prison, thinking about what he did. Instead, he gets to go home and laugh with his FBI buddies about how he got away with it. Just like they did at Waco. Just like future assassins will, as long as they work for the FBI or ATF or Marshals Service, IRS, Forest Service, HUD...or any of the other government agencies that now arm their agents, operate SWAT teams and play with military weapons. I don't know whether an elite sniper like Mr. Lon Horiuchi hobnobs with regular FBI troops. But I can picture Horiuchi hoisting a celebratory beer with the agent seen in *Waco: The Rules of Engagement*, joking (Or was it bragging?) about what a trained and powerful killer he is. Nothing new, nothing new. There's nothing new in federal murder. Nothing new in jackboot tactics. And they've been getting away with it all along, so why should anyone be so outraged now? Just because one more judge-member-of-the-club protects one more federal good ole boy? Objectively, I'd say it's the use of the Constitution's supremacy clause this way - to give carte blanche to any crime a federal employee cares to commit. Even a casual reading of the Constitution - by an honest person, that is - reveals that clause was never intended to turn federal agents into a privileged class, exempt from all state punishment for crimes. But that isn't it. There's nothing new in the Constitution being abused. Nothing new in corrupt judges and twisted rulings. Nothing new in federal arrogance. Nothing new. For me it's more personal and more difficult to express. I know that, for a lot of people in the freedom movement, it was Waco that moved them beyond doubt and into irredeemable disgust. But for me, the horrors of Waco have seemed so huge they've been an abstraction. Unless I'm hearing tape of the little Davidian girl begging the BATF sniper/negotiator not to come in and kill her...or unless I'm seeing those very normal "religious nuts" on the videotapes they made of themselves during the siege...unless I'm watching that terrible film... my mind has never really been able to grasp, in any personal terms, what happened at Waco. But the moment I first saw the wavering, fuzzy footage of the Weaver cabin on August 22, 1992, my heart tore out of my chest. My lungs wouldn't hold any more air. I can't even remember, at that point, whether they'd announced that Sammy was dead. Certainly, they were still pretending they had no intention of killing Vicki. (Only later would I see the documents and hear the testimony that made it clear that getting rid of Vicki, one way or another, was a top priority, since the government perceived her as the strong, decision-making member of the Weaver family.) All I remember is that little cabin in the woods and all the forces of the federal government brought against one isolated family. They were calling them white supremacists at that point. I didn't know whether it was true or not; in any case, it wasn't a reason for 200...400?...agents to descend upon one plywood cabin. It wasn't a reason. What was the reason? That Randy was an "illegal gun dealer" as they put it then? Two hundred agents? Four hundred? Tanks? Humvees? Helicopters? Against a single family on a mountaintop? What was the reason? And if these people, this family in the cabin, were so evil, so dangerous, so depraved, so violent, why would hundreds of neighbors and friends stand at barricades on their behalf for days? Why would women cry for them? Why would men demand a halt? All I knew, as I sat there in my own one-room cabin set in its own dark and isolated woods, was that, wherever the truth lay, it didn't lay in the mouths of the government spokesmen. Whatever was true or false about *that* family up there, *everything* was false about those who sought to destroy them. Everything. And everything was false. And everything is false. And so a murderer walks free. And more murderers will walk free tomorrow. The same false and arrogant government that murdered Vicki Weaver will murder again. They don't realize how much better off they'd be if they allowed just a few of their most public villains, like Horiuchi and the planners of the Waco raid, to receive public wrist slaps. They don't realize that if we saw even token agents receive token punishments, many of us would be appeased. "See," we'd say, "justice is done. There's hope. The system hasn't entirely failed yet." But what can we say when, year after year, monsters walk free? They don't realize that the need for justice doesn't go away, just because justice goes away. They don't realize what a fury they turn loose in the land. It's not *their* fury that will ultimately be the most terrible. Those bureaucrats with guns don't have enough true, gut passion to be furious. All they have is sadism, brutality and a cool, calculating will to power. If rage could be measured in kilowatts or megatons, the rage of American freedom lovers would be as powerful as a dozen atom bombs. Understand. This power will go somewhere. It will drive the engine of our hope and despair. It will. You will not murder and celebrate your murders this way forever. You *will not*. (c)1998 by Claire Wolfe - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Horiuchi poll on the net (fwd) -Forwarded Date: 15 May 1998 17:19:11 -0700 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Fri, 15 May 1998 16:53:19 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id SAA25218; Fri, 15 May 1998 18:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma024881; Fri May 15 18:48:14 1998 Message-Id: <9805152118.0j2t@xpresso.seaslug.org> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: noban@xpresso.seaslug.org Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list On May 15, Rich Zellich wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] http://www.newsindex.com has a poll running: Do you agree with the decision to dismiss the charges against...[Horiuchi]? Current tally is 6.81% Yes 93.19% No Good numbers! -Rich [if you see this in time to vote, the poll dialogue is at the very bottom of the left-hand navigation frame] [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Rep. Key: concealed carry constitutionally allowed Date: 15 May 1998 17:27:05 -0700 http://www.tulsaworld.com/scripts/tulsaworld/tulsaworld.dll?VBEXE=C:\inetsrv\scripts\tulsaworld\tulsaworld.exe&DSPLY=Story&ID=980514_Ne_a15keyed Key, Edmondson in gun battle By Brian Ford World Capitol Bureau 5/15/98 OKLAHOMA CITY -- Rep. Charles Key's assertion that citizens are constitutionally allowed to carry concealed firearms without a permit sparked verbal fire Thursday between Key and Attorney General Drew Edmondson. ``You are simply wrong,'' Edmondson said in a letter to Key. Key responded that the letter makes Edmondson look like a ``horse's ass.'' Key said he was asked Wednesday by a member of a gun owner group whether citizens were allowed to carry concealed firearms without a state license. He said Thursday that he believes the state's concealed weapons permit law violates the Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, which allows citizens to keep and bear arms. He said the state permit law, which subjects applicants to a background check, does not allow all citizens to legally carry firearms. Responding to Key's statement, Edmondson wrote a letter advising Key, ``Don't take your guns to town.'' Edmondson said the Second Amendment ``has never been interpreted by the Supreme Court to allow individuals, not members of a state sanctioned militia, to carry firearms in contravention of state law.'' ``Our law prohibits carrying a concealed weapon without obtaining a license. . . . You are simply wrong,'' Edmondson continued. Edmondson urged Key to heed his advice or seek a formal opinion on the issue. ``If you carry a concealed weapon without a license, you are sub ject to arrest and incarceration,'' Edmondson said. ``I will be releasing this letter to prevent others from reading your comments and inadvertently violating the law by relying on the credibility of your position.'' Key responded that Edmondson's letter was ``politically motivated.'' Key noted that a year ago he was called in by a multicounty grand jury that was operated through the Attorney General's Office to answer questions about his fund-raising activities for the Oklahoma City Bombing Investigation Fund. The private fund is touted as helping to investigate the April 19, 1995, bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building that killed 168 people. ``They were willing to drag me and two other people publicly before a grand jury when there was no basis in law for doing so,'' Key said. ``That is what he is doing with this letter right now.'' Edmondson said Key had violated state law by raising more than $10,000 in private donations and failing to report his organization to the state. Edmondson said he issued the letter because Key made an ``incorrect statement of the law and a dangerous statement -- it could get you arrested.'' He likened Key's statement to a legislator saying the state speed limit has been raised to 90 miles per hour when it fact it had not. As for being likened to a portion of a horse's anatomy, Edmondson said, ``Normally I would not dignify name calling with a response, but I would say this showed more intellectual content than a lot of Representative Key's comments.'' - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Fwd: DRUDGE-REPORT-OCDE RED UPDATE 5/14/98 -Forwarded Date: 15 May 1998 19:20:32 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_895264290_boundary Content-ID: <0_895264290@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII ...just a quick heads-up for those who haven't seen it yet... In a message dated 14-05-98 23:56:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, drudge@drudgereport.com writes: << Subj: DRUDGE-REPORT-OCDE RED UPDATE 5/14/98 Date: 14-05-98 23:56:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: drudge@drudgereport.com Reply-to: drudge@drudgereport.com To: DRUDGE@drudgereport.com XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT CODE RED UPDATE XXXXX MAY 14 1998 XXXXX 22:57 ET BY MATT DRUDGE Democratic fund-raiser Johnny Chung has told federal investigators that he funneled dollars from a Chinese military officer to the Democrats during President Clinton's 1996 re-election campaign, the NEW YORK TIMES is set to report in Friday editions. The exclusive report written by Jeff Gerth took official Washington by storm late Thursday night. "Chung's account, coupled with supporting documents such as bank records, is the first direct evidence obtained by the Justice Department that elements of the Chinese government made illegal contributions to the Democratic Party," reports Gerth. As sneaked earlier this week in this space, Gerth has been building a story that expands on his initial report of a possible illegal sale of U.S. tech intelligence to the Chinese. Gerth, who was described as completely exhausted late Thursday night after filing the story, was assisted by the paper's Justice Department hotshot David Johnston and Don Van Natta. The sound of Pulitzer has been ringing in the air all week at the TIMES Washington bureau. "It's the first in a series of reports that appears to as serious as anything we've seen here," one story watcher told the DRUDGE REPORT. Chung has told investigators, the paper reports, that a large part of the $100,000 he gave to Democratic causes in the summer of '96 came "from China's People's Liberation Army, through a Chinese lieutenant colonel and aerospace executive whose father was Gen. Liu Huaqing." Liu was then not only China's top military commander but also a member of the top leadership of the Communist Party, reveals Gerth. "It is not clear whether other Chinese officials or executives were involved in the purported payments by Ms. Liu, or what her motivation or the Chinese military's was." "At the time, Clinton was making it easier for American communication satellites to be launched by Chinese rockets, a key issue for the People's Libertation Army and for Ms. Liu's company, which sells missiles for the military and also has a space subsidiary." Jim Kennedy, adviser to White House counsel, told the paper on Thursday: "We had no knowledge about the source of Mr. Chung's money or the background of his guest." "The TIMES looks like it is exploiting the emotional atmosphere that has developed around the state of China's military since India tested its nuclear bombs earlier this week," a well-placed Democratic congressional source told the DRUDGE REPORT. The story runs thousands of words and is set above the fold on Page One of Friday's NEW YORK TIMES. Developing... XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT CODE RED XXXXX MAY 14 1998 XXXXX --part0_895264290_boundary-- Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Fri, 15 May 1998 15:11:25 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id RAA17935; Fri, 15 May 1998 17:09:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma017732; Fri May 15 17:06:23 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: ThRealDuke@aol.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_895264290_boundary Content-ID: <0_895264290@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII ...just a quick heads-up for those who haven't seen it yet... In a message dated 14-05-98 23:56:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, drudge@drudgereport.com writes: << Subj: DRUDGE-REPORT-OCDE RED UPDATE 5/14/98 Date: 14-05-98 23:56:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: drudge@drudgereport.com Reply-to: drudge@drudgereport.com To: DRUDGE@drudgereport.com XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT CODE RED UPDATE XXXXX MAY 14 1998 XXXXX 22:57 ET BY MATT DRUDGE Democratic fund-raiser Johnny Chung has told federal investigators that he funneled dollars from a Chinese military officer to the Democrats during President Clinton's 1996 re-election campaign, the NEW YORK TIMES is set to report in Friday editions. The exclusive report written by Jeff Gerth took official Washington by storm late Thursday night. "Chung's account, coupled with supporting documents such as bank records, is the first direct evidence obtained by the Justice Department that elements of the Chinese government made illegal contributions to the Democratic Party," reports Gerth. As sneaked earlier this week in this space, Gerth has been building a story that expands on his initial report of a possible illegal sale of U.S. tech intelligence to the Chinese. Gerth, who was described as completely exhausted late Thursday night after filing the story, was assisted by the paper's Justice Department hotshot David Johnston and Don Van Natta. The sound of Pulitzer has been ringing in the air all week at the TIMES Washington bureau. "It's the first in a series of reports that appears to as serious as anything we've seen here," one story watcher told the DRUDGE REPORT. Chung has told investigators, the paper reports, that a large part of the $100,000 he gave to Democratic causes in the summer of '96 came "from China's People's Liberation Army, through a Chinese lieutenant colonel and aerospace executive whose father was Gen. Liu Huaqing." Liu was then not only China's top military commander but also a member of the top leadership of the Communist Party, reveals Gerth. "It is not clear whether other Chinese officials or executives were involved in the purported payments by Ms. Liu, or what her motivation or the Chinese military's was." "At the time, Clinton was making it easier for American communication satellites to be launched by Chinese rockets, a key issue for the People's Libertation Army and for Ms. Liu's company, which sells missiles for the military and also has a space subsidiary." Jim Kennedy, adviser to White House counsel, told the paper on Thursday: "We had no knowledge about the source of Mr. Chung's money or the background of his guest." "The TIMES looks like it is exploiting the emotional atmosphere that has developed around the state of China's military since India tested its nuclear bombs earlier this week," a well-placed Democratic congressional source told the DRUDGE REPORT. The story runs thousands of words and is set above the fold on Page One of Friday's NEW YORK TIMES. Developing... XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT CODE RED XXXXX MAY 14 1998 XXXXX --part0_895264290_boundary Content-ID: <0_895264290@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from relay24.mx.aol.com (relay24.mail.aol.com [172.31.106.70]) by air18.mx.aol.com (v43.10) with SMTP; Thu, 14 May 1998 23:56:46 -0400 Received: from mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net (mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.34]) by relay24.mx.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id XAA23016; Thu, 14 May 1998 23:56:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.worldnet.att.net ([12.64.32.152]) by mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAE9229; Fri, 15 May 1998 03:54:49 +0000 Message-ID: <+++++ DRUDGE REPORT +++++> Reply-To: drudge@drudgereport.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT CODE RED UPDATE XXXXX MAY 14 1998 XXXXX 22:57 ET BY MATT DRUDGE Democratic fund-raiser Johnny Chung has told federal investigators that he funneled dollars from a Chinese military officer to the Democrats during President Clinton's 1996 re-election campaign, the NEW YORK TIMES is set to report in Friday editions. The exclusive report written by Jeff Gerth took official Washington by storm late Thursday night. "Chung's account, coupled with supporting documents such as bank records, is the first direct evidence obtained by the Justice Department that elements of the Chinese government made illegal contributions to the Democratic Party," reports Gerth. As sneaked earlier this week in this space, Gerth has been building a story that expands on his initial report of a possible illegal sale of U.S. tech intelligence to the Chinese. Gerth, who was described as completely exhausted late Thursday night after filing the story, was assisted by the paper's Justice Department hotshot David Johnston and Don Van Natta. The sound of Pulitzer has been ringing in the air all week at the TIMES Washington bureau. "It's the first in a series of reports that appears to as serious as anything we've seen here," one story watcher told the DRUDGE REPORT. Chung has told investigators, the paper reports, that a large part of the $100,000 he gave to Democratic causes in the summer of '96 came "from China's People's Liberation Army, through a Chinese lieutenant colonel and aerospace executive whose father was Gen. Liu Huaqing." Liu was then not only China's top military commander but also a member of the top leadership of the Communist Party, reveals Gerth. "It is not clear whether other Chinese officials or executives were involved in the purported payments by Ms. Liu, or what her motivation or the Chinese military's was." "At the time, Clinton was making it easier for American communication satellites to be launched by Chinese rockets, a key issue for the People's Libertation Army and for Ms. Liu's company, which sells missiles for the military and also has a space subsidiary." Jim Kennedy, adviser to White House counsel, told the paper on Thursday: "We had no knowledge about the source of Mr. Chung's money or the background of his guest." "The TIMES looks like it is exploiting the emotional atmosphere that has developed around the state of China's military since India tested its nuclear bombs earlier this week," a well-placed Democratic congressional source told the DRUDGE REPORT. The story runs thousands of words and is set above the fold on Page One of Friday's NEW YORK TIMES. Developing... XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT CODE RED XXXXX MAY 14 1998 XXXXX --part0_895264290_boundary-- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: forwarded essay on Ruby Ridge -Forwarded Date: 15 May 1998 19:31:11 -0700 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Fri, 15 May 1998 14:20:01 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id QAA14295; Fri, 15 May 1998 16:18:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma014115; Fri May 15 16:17:20 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980515145535.006f3f44@mail.swbell.net> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: rgustav@swbell.net Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list >Return-Path: >From: John Wallace >To: "'texas-gun-owners@mailing-list.net'" >Subject: forwarded essay on Ruby Ridge >Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:14:42 -0500 >Sender: owner-texas-gun-owners@Mailing-List.net >Reply-To: texas-gun-owners@Mailing-List.net > >Posted to texas-gun-owners by John Wallace >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >I saw this on another list, and thought it was worth forwarding. I don't >know the author personally, but I told him he should try to get this >published in the mainstream press somewhere >>>>>>> > > >"Just yesterday morning they let me know you were gone > Suzanne, the plans they made put an end to you. > Woke up this mornin' and I wrote down the song. > Just can't remember who to send it to. > > O, I've seen fire and I've see rain. > Seen sunny days, I thought would never end. > Seen lonely times when I could not find a friend > But I always thought that I'd see you again." > from "Fire and Rain" by James Taylor > > It's not a girl, but the America of my youth. It's not a song, but >simply scattered thoughts. Still, the feeling is the same emptiness, >and I am at a loss as to where they might best be directed. > > Vicki Weaver died in the doorway of an Idaho cabin. Lon Horiuchi, an >FBI HRT team member, launched the bullet that killed her. Horiuchi's >supervisors issued orders that can be called suspicious, at best. No >one disputes these facts. > > The people of the United States understand and accept the law >enforcement is a potentially dangerous occupation. They understand that >there are a lot of "crazies" out there who may or may not directly >threaten the public and their law enforcement agents. People understand >that lethal force is sometimes necessary in defense of self or another >life. People also understand that when lethal force is used, there is >the potential for accidental injury or death. Law enforcement officers >(along with others) have to make split second decisions in pressure >packet moments. When they do everything right, its "just part of the >job." When mistakes are made, by agents or their supervisors, then >there is a lot of second guessing. Sometimes such "mistakes" are mere >accidents for which there is no criminal liability. Sometimes the >"mistakes" are negligent and subject to penalties of law. > > When a questionable incident occurs, we have systems in place to deal >with them. In the America of my youth, I was told that each person was >equal before the law-- that each person-- rich, poor, or in between; >black, white, brown, yellow or red; liberal or conservative; male or >female-- was equally responsible for their actions. The key to this >equality was a trial by a jury of one's peers. They would examine the >facts, if not the law, and determine whether or not actions were >reasonable, or at least lawful or unlawful, according to the standards >of our society. It seems that I was misinformed. > > When the gunsmoke and heat of the moment cleared on Ruby Ridge, the >judicial system went into operation. Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris were >tried for murder and a host of lesser charges. A jury of their peers >judged the facts of several years of law enforcement strategy, tactics >and implementation, along with Weaver and Harris response. After >consideration of all that had been done, Weaver and Harris were >acquitted of all charges, save one count of failing to respond to a >summons. Law enforcement was censured by the judge for abusing the >system, including falsifying and withholding evidence. > > The results of the trial caused a number of people to suspect that >something was wrong. The issue came before Congress who held televised >hearings on "the incident at Ruby Ridge." They came to the conclusion >that something was terribly wrong. FBI and ATF officials promised >reform. The Department of Justice settled a civil suit with the >Weavers, paying $3.1 million dollars, without admitting fault. So far, >so good. > > But Vicki Weaver is still dead. Everyone seems to affirm that her >death was a wrongful act. Wrongful acts causing death are illegalities >subject to criminal, not civil, penalties. What crime was committed-- >murder, manslaughter, negligent homicide-- was a matter for the >technicalites of the law. Whether the actions were justified were >issues to be determined by the facts of the case-- the job of the jury. >Whether Lon Horiuchi was the guilty party or whether he acted reasonably >in following what Congress called "unlawful rules of engagement" was an >issue to be determined-- by a jury. > > The calendar pages turned. The Department of Justice refused to >prosecute. Finally, the case was settled at the Federal level with no >criminal action perceived or prosecuted. The People of the State of >Idaho then took up the challenge. A local prosecutor submitted facts to >a Grand Jury. They found cause to indict. The matter would be brought >to trial. The facts were simple as stated above. Vicki Weaver was >dead. Lon Horiuchi directly caused the death. It happened in Idaho. >No person is above the law. > > And then we learn that we are wrong. Some people are. Federal agents >"in the performance of their duties" are not subject to state laws. >Such is an act of Congress. There was a time when "federal agents" had >no duty within the boundaries of a state, except to deliver the mail! >Now we find an entire class of people not subject to state action-- >people exempted from the law. > > Part of this makes sense. Consider laws regulating the carrying of a >concealed weapon. There are a patchwork of such laws, differing in >every state. If FBI agents are required by their job descriptions to >carry weapons, it would make no sense for them to be subject to arrest >in states which did not allow weapons to be carried. (Whether such laws >should be on the books is another discussion.) The intent of Congress' >exemption from state law may be reasonable in some cases. But a blanket >exemption from all criminal law is another matter all together. As a >local police officer said, "Every federal agent thinks he's "f**king >James Bond, with a license to kill. If they do, there's not a d**ned >thing we can do about it. It's been that way for years." The police >know this, but its news to me, and I suspect, to most of the public." > > Apparently the court actions in the Ruby Ridge case are exceptional >only in the fact that the State of Idaho tried to take action in this >wrongful death. A federal judge moved the action from state court to a >federal court where the charges were dropped. Whether Horiuchi got off >with murder (or manslaughter or negligent homicide) will never be >determined. He may have committed no crime in the eyes of the jury, but >we will never know. Horiuchi will live under a cloud of thwarted >process for the rest of his life, and the citizens of this nation will >be left living with the knowledge that there is no recourse for wrongs >done to them by federal agents unless the federal government decides to >punish its own. Somehow the punishment often meted out in "days off," >letters of censure, demotions, transfers and forced retirements fall far >short of "equality under the law." If anyone else was found guilty of >taking a life, the penalties would be much more severe. > > I am an amateur student of history. I cannot help but recall the "long >train of abuses" listed in the Declaration of Independence. Some of >them are recalled to mind as yesterday's decision was announced: >"He (King George) has refused his assent to laws, the most wholesome and >necessary for the public good. > >He has obstructed the administration of justice, by refusing to assent >to laws for establishing judiciary powers. > >He has made judges dependent on his will alone for the tenure of their >offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries. > >He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of >officers, to harass our people and eat out their substance. > >He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to >our constitutions, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his assent to >their acts of pretended legislation. > >For protecting them by a mock trial, from punishment for any murders >which they should commit on the inhabitants of these states. > >For depriving us, in many cases of the benefit of trial by jury. > >For taking away our charters, abolishing our most valuable laws, and >altering, fundamentally, the forms of our governments." > > King George acted not alone. Generally, Parliment and the king's >judges acted with him in unison. They acted under the color of English >law. It all looked official, but the colonist could look at the >results. They didn't like what they saw. It didn't pass the "smell >test," in spite of what they were told. The colonist were fed the line >that they were "free Englishmen," but as they looked at their lives, >they could see the limits on their freedom. They were free to do the >will of the King. No regime enforces penalties for absolute obedience >to the whims and wishes of the powers that be. > > What we are discovering is that the States, which created the Federal >government, have lost all illusions of sovereignty. We live by the good >will of the Federal government. All power is now invested in the >President, the Congress and the Supreme Court. States are legally >powerless, and citizens have no right to life, liberty and the pursuit >of happiness apart from the whim and will of Federal officials. The >people and the States who were to be a check against federal abuse are >being systematically stripped of their power to effectively resist >anything. > > The reality is our not so secret agents have a license to kill. And >there is nothing we can do about it short of revolt. That revolt may >come at the polls. It may not come at all. For the Founders of this >nation, that day came, but we are different people and this is a >different time. We may be willing to accept such abuse in stride, check >the stock market figures, weigh the benefits of life in this society >against the uncertainties of change, and continue with the lives we >live, but we will never be able to think of ourselves as free. Perhaps >we never were. Maybe, the America of my youth never really was. >Certainly, it is now gone, and it never had a chance to say goodbye. > >"Just yesterday morning, they let me know you were gone. >America, the plans they made put and end to you. >Woke up this morning and I wrote down these thoughts. >Just can't remember who to send them to > >O, I've seen fire and I've seen rain >Seen sunny days I thought would never end >Seen lonely times when I could not find a friend >But I always thought I'd see you again" > >Walter Lee > > >-- >For help with Majordomo commands, send a message to majordomo@mailing-list.net >with the word help in the message body. > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Politics as usual Date: 15 May 1998 22:24:00 -0700 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Libertarian Self-Reliance Politics as Usual Dept. [Thanks to Tim Rhodes for this tidbit] Representative Tim Moor sponsored a resolution in the Texas House of Representatives in Austin, Texas calling on the House to commend Albert de Salvo for his unselfish service to "his country, his state and his community." The resolution stated that "this compassionate gentleman's dedication and devotion to his work has enabled the weak and the lonely throughout the nation to achieve and maintain a new degree of concern for their future. He has been officially recognized by the state of Massachusetts for his noted activities and unconventional techniques involving population control and applied psychology." The resolution was passed unanimously. Representative Moore then revealed that he had only tabled the motion to show how the legislature passes bills and resolutions often without reading them or understanding what they say. Albert de Salvo was the Boston Strangler. -- Ron Amos, Libertarian Candidate Utah State House District #27 Liberty is Our Destiny http://www.netcom.com/~ramos3/district27.html - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: FEAR: Who's next? You? Me? -- The Danger of Dissent in the USA Date: 15 May 1998 22:24:00 -0700 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Willy Chaplin published an interesting piece in the ezine, PissedOff (http://www.pissedoff.com/cgi-pissedoff/hn/get/forums/secret.html), a couple of days ago. In the essay there is a link to the May, 1998, issue of the magazine Liberty and to a very disturbing article by the author Peter McWilliams, "The DEA Wishes Me a Nice Day" (an on-line copy is at http://www.libertysoft.com/liberty/issues/65issue.html), wherein he describes a visit paid to him by the DEA last December. In the pre dawn hours on one December morning, they came into his home with guns drawn, handcuffed Mr. McWilliams, proceeded to search his home and his business and to confiscate his personal property, including his computer, his current book in progress and all backup copies. A warrant was only produced later and even then, no reason was given. (They don't have to give a reason any more thanks to one of the latest raft of annual "crime bills" passed by our ever caring congress). We could speculate that the reason for this devastating intrusion into Peter's life is because he wrote a very enlightening but politically critical book a few years ago entitled, Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do: The Absurdity of Consensual Crimes in Our Free Country (available at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0931580536/002-7099641-9910800). Or it could be because he is apparently using medically prescribed marijuana because he is dying of AIDS and cancer. While this practice is legal in California, the Feds apparently do not condone such laws and are making life miserable for any California citizens who chose to ignore federal drug policy -- the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution notwithstanding. No, the reason the DEA has decided to make Peter's life miserable and the reason Peter is resigned to spending the rest of his life in prison, is DISSENT. Yeah, I know that folk wisdom has it that in the USA with its democracy that is the envy of the world, dissent is not only accepted but is even encouraged. Try it. Sure, you can openly complain about the trivial things, but experience has shown that on the big, big issues -- like the Vietnam war, the Cold War, and now the Drug war, expressing opposition can get you in a bunch of trouble. But Mr. Chaplin has made this claim much better than I can and I strongly recommend you take a look at his essay, "Secret Police" at http://www.pissedoff.com/cgi-pissedoff/hn/get/forums/secret.html . I quote Mr. Chaplin: "Then it hit me...like a thunderbolt! We have EXACTLY such a [police] force RIGHT NOW! It exists and is growing stronger, more repressive and more dangerous each year. It is called the Drug Enforcement Agency and it is explicitly formed and authorized to fight opposition to a war...the War on Drugs. It's tactics are unconstitutional, secretive, ruthless and brutal. Despite the fact that it has NEVER been the slightest bit effective in stemming drug use or abuse, it HAS BEEN ALMOST COMPLETELY EFFECTIVE IN SUPPRESSING DISSENT!" If this is true -- and I believe it is -- we are all at risk. Not because we are taking un-approved drugs but because we actively express our disapproval about what the government is doing to the citizens and its abuse of the Constitution. So, the old-timers would say, what else in new? Dissent has always been dangerous. Maybe, it would be prudent to just keep our mouths shut (as the German citizens did before WW2). But that is hard to do when we read what Mr. McWilliams has to say about it: "If the DEA has seized my computer to silence me, it has failed, as I hope this article illustrates." A good point. [Posted by Leon Felkins] - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Idaho Judge Lodge Linked to Hansen Nightmare 1/2 Date: 15 May 1998 22:24:00 -0700 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- To All, The corrupt District Federal Judge detailed in this newspaper article is the same man who dismissed the court case against Lon Horiuchi, the murderer of Randy Weaver's wife and son. Truth Surfaces in Hansen Ordeal Banker's Political Prisoner http://www.conghansen.com/backg.htm (EDITOR'S NOTE: This article contains graphic descriptions of torture that some may find offensive) Dept. of Finance/Judge Lodge Linked to Hansen Nightmare by Don Harkins and Edward Snook Diesel Therapy: A prison term which describes the most inhumane, degrading and painful of punishment; normally reserved for the most violent and uncontrollable of prisoners. A prisoner is shackled at the feet and handcuffed at the wrists, reinforced with a box-like structure which stiffens the chains and locks the wrists at a 90-degree angle. The handcuffs are connected to a waist chain that is connected to another chain which connects the shackles. Once this shackling is complete, a prisoner can barely move. The tightened manacles pinch the nerves and restrict the flow of blood causing severe pain and swelling. Legs swelling with blood are particularly damaging to the feet, as toenails under pressure from blood-blisters press up against shoes for long periods of time and soon become infected and deformed, causing such excruciating pain that they require surgery or the pulling of the nails out by the roots. Diesel therapy gets its name, not from the "cruel and unusual" bondage, but from being forced into bus after bus and onto plane after plane, shackled as described, and being shuttled from one prison to another, for weeks on end, 20 hours per day in chains, for no other reason than to cause pain and suffering and give the prisoner a "message." Welcome to diesel therapy and the world of seven-term Congressman George Hansen who was found guilty in the court-room of the infamous Federal Judge Edward Lodge on bogus charges of bank fraud which were manipulated into an issue by the Idaho Department of Finance which illegally used the same agents previously employed by the IRS in their failed attempt to "get Hansen." People who have been reading past editions of The Idaho Observer and The Oregon Observer will recall that the Judge Lodge/Idaho Department of Finance connection has already been uncovered in the bogus securities laws violations charges levied against Boise businessman and winemaker Petro (Pete) Eliopulos. "After Ed Snook of The Oregon Observer and I met with Hansen and he told me in a six-hour meeting what had happened to him, I was more shaken than I have ever been in my life. If (West One) bank officers Knox and Neaville had not subsequently been convicted of crimes which came to light in the bogus investigations of me and my businesses, they could have done to me what they did to Hansen," said Eliopulos, who was shocked that a U.S. Representative, or anybody for that matter, could be treated this way in America. What could an esteemed member of the U.S. Congress have done to deserve such treatment? Judge Lodge prescribed torture for Hansen. Congressman Hansen found innocent of crimes manufactured to thwart congressional accountability. After four years of imprisonment, after ten years of persecution, after being ruined professionally and financially and after being permanently damaged physically, in December, 1995, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals vacated Hansen's sentence for bank fraud because the U.S. Supreme Court had ruled on May 15, 1995, that Hansen's previous conviction as a member of Congress had been overturned. A series of events were triggered to allow crimes to be manufactured which led to the imprisonment and torture of Congressman George Hansen. Idaho District Federal Judge Edward Lodge, who has been used by bankers and government officials for a decade to "legalize" their unethical and criminal activities, was given the job of putting Hansen away and seeing to it that he learned a lesson. Judge Lodge saw to it that Hansen received "diesel therapy" coming and going to prison from the judge's court at great cost to the government, even though Hansen should have been allowed to make such trips at his own expense. On the way from his hometown of Pocatello to federal prison in Petersberg, VA , Hansen was bused and flown, nearly immovably shackled, at taxpayer expense, to jails all over the country. Not Hansen's lawyer, his wife, nor his allies in Congress were able to locate him. Hansen had simply disappeared for a month into the custody of the Federal Marshal's Service. Hansen's wife didn't know whether he was dead or alive. And even when the Supreme Court overturned Hansen's original case and the Appeals Court vacated his current sentence, Hansen still got the Judge Lodge treatment of another dose of diesel therapy from Virginia back to Idaho. What had Hansen, who was a model prisoner, done to deserve the most brutal, torturous and barbaric type of treatment this country's penal system is capable of inflicting on a prisoner? Congressional Accountability Project Retired Congressman Tom Kindness (R-Ohio) stated , "I believe that George's recent trial and conviction on charges of "bank fraud" was the direct result of a campaign by various members of the bureaucracy to stop the CAP." CAP, the Congressional Accountability Project, was being launched by Hansen and a group of investors interested in good government. CAP was going to utilize nation-wide television and a national 900 number to make congresspersons instantaneously accountable to the American people for their votes on the House and Senate floors. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Idaho Judge Lodge Linked to Hansen Nightmare 2/2 Date: 15 May 1998 22:24:00 -0700 "This was a project which would, in my opinion, have had a major impact on the votes of congressmen since it would have made them instantaneously responsible to the people by making their votes known immediately after being cast," commented journalist John Voss. Hansen and his associates were on the verge of making CAP fully operational and accessible to the American public when the government, through the Idaho Department of Finance with the illegal help of former IRS agents, a revenge-minded Justice Department and the corrupt Judge Lodge, manufactured bank fraud charges against him. Judge Lodge's provably compromised court ultimately found Hansen guilty and prescribed diesel therapy to teach him a lesson. Why did the "Honorable" Judge Lodge treat Hansen like Public Enemy #1? George Hansen was the only member of Congress able to pull the strings necessary to visit the hostages in Iran in 1979 and expose the big-bank scam behind the crises. George Hansen was the author of the book To Harass Our People, an indictment of the IRS, wherein he demanded its dismantling. George Hansen was the congressman who was so outraged by what he discovered about the IRS while researching his book that he wrote and helped to pass the Taxpayers' Bill of Rights. George Hansen was the first man to propose the flat tax as a damage control alternative to protect the people from IRS abuses. George Hansen was the man who took on OSHA, WPPSS, and the INS, and George Hansen was the man who fearlessly and repeatedly made public his findings when investigations turned up government corruption and citizen abuse. The "system" decided it had to teach Congressman Hansen a lesson because, had he been allowed to continue serving on Capitol Hill, he would soon likely be the chairman of the powerful House Banking Committee. So, why did Judge Lodge, whose personal reasons for needing to keep the well-documented criminal nature of the banking industry below public scrutiny, with the help of the Idaho Department of Finance, trump up a bank fraud conviction by denying the admission of exonerating evidence in court in order to throw Hansen in prison and make sure that he was punished severely with diesel therapy? Was it because Congressman Hansen was getting close to the truth and accumulating the political power it would take to finally and totally expose the banking industry and government for its criminal abuses of the American people? Judge Lodge's Court of Kangaroos CAP was apparently the final straw and abusive criminal government had to put Hansen down. On the eve of CAP becoming fully operational, powerful special interests and political enemies derailed the project and forced a domino effect of financial repercussions upon Hansen and his associates. The government then took the situation it had created and indicted, prosecuted and convicted Hansen of bank fraud. Though the treachous Judge Lodge and the government disdained the patriotic financial sacrifices made by Hansen's supporters for good government and callously prevented his efforts to re-pay them, it did not prevent Hansen from publicly pledging that these law breaking government bullies could never seal his lips, nor stop him from somehow paying back the people he owed and thereby keeping his word. Every attorney who has read the court transcripts is concerned and confounded as to how George could have been convicted on bank fraud charges when the supervising bank officers were not only acutely aware of his financial operation and transactions, but were actively assisting him in his efforts for over ten years! "George defrauded no one and we can prove it," stated Congressman Kindness. Hansen was not really imprisoned and tortured by "our" government for bank fraud, though that was the government's excuse to lock him up and shut him down. Hansen was actually a political prisoner who was guilty of attempting to provide the American people with the ammunition of knowledge so they could successfully fight back against the senseless encroachment of government oppression which more and more is ruining the lives of all of us. Hansen dedicated his civil service to facilitating a return to a "our" government that felt threatened enough by his noble activities to see to it that he was imprisoned and tortured for daring to tell citizen/taxpayers the truth. Hansen was the only U.S. statesman who cared enough to risk his own safety and political career to visit the hostages in Iran in 1979. While in Iran, Hansen saw first hand what happens to political prisoners, who were beaten mercilessly, who had finger and toe nails ripped out by the roots and who had been shackled until they were permanently disabled physically. Hansen has also experienced first hand the same inhumane torture and it happened to him in the most "civilized" nation on earth, the only difference being that Hansen was denied treatment and pain-killers and had to rip his own deformed and infected toenails out. If there has ever been a time when your country needed you to stand up for everything it means to be an American, that time is right now. Subscribe to Truth in Journalism; subscribe to The Idaho Observer ____ $20.00 for 12 issues ____ $35.00 for 24 issues ____ Contribution of $___________ Name: __________________________________________________ Address: ________________________________________________ City: ___________________________ State: _____ Zip: _________ Phone: _________________________ Email: __________________ Print, clip, and mail to: The Idaho Observer PO Box 1806 Post Falls ID 83854 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Dr. Finnell Takes On CDC. TV interview Monday Date: 16 May 1998 23:11:16 -0600 Val Finnell, M.D. Takes on the CDC: > I will be a guest on "Endangered Liberties," a talk show on America's > Voice (cable) on Monday, May 18th at 10:00 pm to discuss the Centers for > Disease Control's (CDC) support of the biased and incompetent medical > "research" on the issue of gun ownership. > > The show is broadcast live and accepts call-ins and e-mail: > takeaction@americasvoice.com > > Please tune in if you have cable. If you don't, you can still view the > broadcast in RealVideo using RealPlayer at the following website: > > http://www.americasvoice.com/ > > Just click on the button that says, "Watch Now." > > You can download the RealPlayer free at: > http://www.real.com/products/player/index.html > > Again: > > Endangered Liberties on America's Voice cable network at 10:00 pm, > Monday May 18th. Watch on TV or on the web. Call in-and e-mail. > > Thanks, > > Val Val is a friend and fellow member of Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research. If you have the ability to check this out, please do. Sarah - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: RNC / New York Times -Forwarded Date: 18 May 1998 14:34:45 -0700 Received: from web185c.bbnplanet.com (web185c.bbnplanet.com [207.121.186.185]) by web185c.bbnplanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA08622; Mon, 18 May 1998 16:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BRONZE.RNC.ORG by BRONZE.RNC.ORG (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 15472 for PRESSLIST@BRONZE.RNC.ORG; Mon, 18 May 1998 16:11:36 -0700 Received: from web185c.bbnplanet.com (web185c.bbnplanet.com [207.121.186.185]) by web185c.bbnplanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA08394 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 16:11:35 -0700 (PDT) Approved-By: shenry2@IX.NETCOM.COM Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.7]) by web185c.bbnplanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA08331 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 15:56:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA17822 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 14:52:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vna-va10-40.ix.netcom.com(207.223.177.168) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma017802; Mon May 18 14:52:17 1998 X-Sender: shenry2@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980518195449.0069f0fc@ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: Sean Henry Sender: RNC Press List This is a very important summary of how the Clinton Administration has sold US security interests -- and why. Please forward it to your own lists. Mike Collins RNC Press Secretary (202) 863-8550 (Voice) (202) 863-8773 (Fax) (800) 317-4967 (Pager) E-Mail: mcollins@rnchq.org Visit Our Web Site: http://www.rnc.org ESSAY / By WILLIAM SAFIRE U.S. Security for Sale WASHINGTON -- A President hungry for money to finance his re-election overruled the Pentagon; he sold to a Chinese Military Intelligence front the technology that defense experts argued would give Beijing the capacity to blind our spy satellites and launch a sneak attack. How soon we have forgotten Pearl Harbor. October 1996 must have been some tense month for Democratic fund-raisers. The New York Times, Wall Street Journal and Los Angeles Times had begun to expose "the Asian connection" of John Huang and Indonesia's Riady family to the Clinton campaign. The fix was already in to sell the satellite technology to China. Clinton had switched the licensing over to Ron Brown's anything-goes Commerce Department. Johnny Chung had paid up. Commerce's Huang had delivered money big time (though one of his illegal foreign sources had already been spotted). The boss of the satellite's builder had come through as Clinton's largest contributor. But public outrage was absent. The F.B.I. didn't read the papers and Reno Justice did not want to embarrass the President. And television news found no pictorial values in the Asian connection. Stealthily, the Clinton Administration held back the implementation of the corrupt policy until Nov. 5 -- the day the campaign ended. Now the reporting of Jeff Gerth and The Times's investigative team is putting the spotlight of pitiless publicity on the sellout of American security. We begin to see how the daughter of China's top military commander steered at least $300,000 through the Chung channel to the D.N.C. (Apparently Mr. Chung skimmed off a chunk and may be spilling his guts lest he have to face his Beijing friends.) We begin to learn more of the Feb. 8, 1996, visit of the arms dealer Wang Jun to the Commerce office of Ron Brown, and Wang's "coffee" meeting that day with the President, the very day that Clinton approved four Chinese launches -- even as China was terrorizing Taiwan with missile tests. Clinton's explanation, which used to slyly suggest that China policy was not changed "solely" by contributors, has now switched to total ignorance: shucks, we didn't know the source of the money. But this President's D.N.C. did not know because it wanted not to know; procedures long in place to prevent the unlawful inflow of foreign funds were uprooted by the money-hungry Clintonites. Today, two years after this sale of our security, comes the unforeseen chain reaction: as China strengthens its satellite and missile technology, a new Indian Government reacts to the growing threat from its longtime Asian rival and joins the nuclear club. In turn, China feels pressed to supply its threatened ally, Pakistan, with weaponry Beijing promised us not to transfer. This makes Clinton the Proliferation President. Who has helped keep this sellout of security under wraps? In the Senate, John Glenn was rewarded with a space flight by Clinton for derogating the leads to China of the Thompson committee. Fred Thompson's warnings about China's plan to penetrate this White House were then scorned by Democratic partisans; his Government Operations Committee should now swarm all over this. The House's aggressive agent of the Clinton cover-up, Henry Waxman of California, is finally "troubled" by the prospect of damning evidence he prevented the Burton committee from finding. At least three Democratic partisans who foolishly followed Waxman in blocking the testimony of Asian witnesses may have difficulty explaining their cover-up vote to even more troubled voters in their districts. The Gerth revelations lead to more questions: Where were the chiefs of the C.I.A. and the National Security Agency, their intelligence so dependent on satellites, on the satellite technology sale to China? Is anybody at Reno Justice re-examining testimony taken by independent counsel investigating corruption at Commerce before Ron Brown's death? Does Brown's former lawyer claim "dead man's privilege" on notes? Did N.S.A. tape overseas calls of suspect Commerce officials? Who induced Commerce to lobby Clinton for control of satellite technology? And the most immediate: Will homesick prosecutor Charles LaBella, beholden to Janet Reno for his political appointment in San Diego, dare to offend his patron by calling for independent counsel? - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Repercussions of military killing of civilian teen-ager Date: 18 May 1998 14:38:47 -0700 Received: from legacy.lgcy.com ([209.63.171.101]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Sun, 17 May 1998 13:59:14 -0600 Received: from cor.oz.cc.utah.EDU by legacy.derail.org (NTList 3.02.13) id la668653; Sun, 17 May 1998 13:58:01 -0600 Received: from localhost (shb4391@localhost) by cor.oz.cc.utah.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA04444; Sun, 17 May 1998 13:57:52 -0600 (MDT) X-Sender: shb4391@cor Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Info: Evaluation version at legacy.lgcy.com X-ListMember: dsagers@ci.west-valley.ut.us [discussion@derail.org] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Repercussions of military killing of civilian teen-ager along border 12.34 p.m. ET (1635 GMT) May 17, 1998 By Eduardo Montes, Associated Press EL PASO, Texas (AP) -- As the Marines approached, Esequiel Hernandez Jr. writhed on the ground in agony, dying from the military-issue M-16 bullet that had torn into his side. On that rainy evening one year ago, the 18-year-old goatherd became the first American civilian casualty of U.S. troops enlisted to fight the war on drugs. He may have been the last. The military suspended its drug patrols along the border two months later and not one armed soldier has returned since. "We don't know when and if those missions will be reinstated. To be very honest, we don't believe they will. The entire operation was put under scrutiny. I just don't see us going back into that business,'' said Lt. Col. Jere Norman, spokesman for Joint Task Force Six, the agency that coordinates anti-drug missions between the military and civilian authorities. The Pentagon created the El Paso-based JTF Six in 1989 after the White House declared drugs a national security threat, opening the door to limited military involvement in interdiction efforts. Civil rights advocates quickly protested, arguing the move eroded the 1878 Posse Comitatus act prohibiting the military from performing civilian law enforcement functions. It was "against the democratic values and beliefs of this country since the Declaration of Independence,'' said Maria Jimenez, director of the Immigration Law Enforcement Monitoring Project, a watchdog group. Critics also said the government was inviting tragedy, and Hernandez's death on May 20, 1997, seemed to prove them right. Hernandez, who lived in Redford, a remote border town 200 miles southeast of El Paso, had been grazing his goats near the Rio Grande when he crossed paths with a four-man Marine patrol assigned to keep watch on a suspected drug smuggling route. What happened next has been a subject of debate. The Marines said Hernandez fired at them twice with his .22-caliber rifle, prompting the camouflaged soldiers to trail him for about 20 minutes. When he raised his rifle a third time, Cpl. Clemente Banuelos, fearing a fellow Marine was in danger, fired a single shot that struck Hernandez under the right armpit. Within the hour, the teen-ager was dead. Family members say Hernandez would never have knowingly fired at the Marines and that he carried the rifle only to shoot targets and protect his goats from wild dogs. Local and federal authorities acknowledge he wasn't involved in any wrongdoing when he was killed. The military maintains Banuelos and his three fellow Marines acted appropriately. Banuelos was cleared by two grand juries, one federal and one convened by Presidio County. The decision outraged Hernandez's family and many Redford residents. "It's something that you can't understand, why it happened, why they had to kill him, why it had to be done,'' said Hernandez's older brother, Margarito. "We can't accept they had a reason to kill him. It was wrong.'' The Hernandez family is pursuing a claim against the government and has been negotiating with the Justice Department for compensation, said family attorney Bill Weinacht. And Presidio County District Attorney Albert Valadez is considering whether to reopen the case because he feels the county grand jury's examination left unanswered questions. Margarito Hernandez and civil rights advocates are pleased that the military missions have been discontinued, but they fear the Pentagon could reverse the decision. And in any event, JTF Six will still be involved with police, including training them in military tactics. "It's a different threat,'' said Tim Dunn, author of "Militarization of the U.S.-Mexico Border.'' "It's a more severe threat if they're out there with guns,'' he said. "But if the other facets of the relationship ... continue, that's still dangerous.'' Supporters of military involvement see a different threat. "We should not unilaterally retreat from the war on drugs because there is a tragedy,'' said Paul Marcone, chief of staff for Rep. Jim Traficant, D-Ohio. "The (suspension's) net effect is that we have more cocaine and heroin coming into the United States.'' Traficant plans to reintroduce legislation this year to allow increased military participation. But Norman, the JTF Six spokesman, said he's not sure civilian agencies want soldiers to return. "If it became available to us, we'd have to take a long hard look at it,'' said Tomas Zuniga, a Dallas-based spokesman for the Immigration and Naturalization Service. "Shame on me once, but not shame on me twice.'' - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: BATF Proposed regulations: Immediate action needed! Date: 18 May 1998 16:00:37 -0700 Received: from listbox.com ([208.210.124.23]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Mon, 18 May 1998 00:00:38 -0600 Received: (qmail 17507 invoked by uid 516); 18 May 1998 05:59:37 -0000 Delivered-To: rkba-co@majordomo.pobox.com Received: (qmail 17479 invoked from network); 18 May 1998 05:59:31 -0000 Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com (1@15.254.48.2) by majordomo.pobox.com with SMTP; 18 May 1998 05:59:31 -0000 Received: from neptune.fc.hp.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA274941170; Sun, 17 May 1998 23:59:30 -0600 Received: by neptune.fc.hp.com (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA15009; Sun, 17 May 1998 23:59:29 -0600 Message-Id: <9805180559.AA15009@neptune.fc.hp.com> Sender: owner-rkba-co.new@majordomo.pobox.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rkba-co@majordomo.pobox.com Posted to rkba-co by Dave Post ----------------------- This is about the *proposed* permanent Brady Bill regulations The BATF comment period is about to end ( midnight May 20, 1998. ) If you wish to be taken off my distribution list, I will immediately honor your wishes. === I am sorry that this is redundant for subscribers to RKBA-CO. But I wanted to thank those subscribers ( you know who you are. ) If it wasn't for them, Gun Owners of America and Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership many of us would not have found out about this. The NRA is asleep at the wheel. I e mailed my concerns, along with the proposed regulations to Tanya Metaska, NRA/ILA three weeks ago and have heard nothing back. The proposed regulations are available from me or the government ( Government Printing Office ) at: http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/dbsearch.html link: Federal Register link: GPO Access Search Page http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aaces002.html Federal Register, Volume 63, (1998) was already selected in a form searched for "alcohol, tobacco and firearms" http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/multidb.cgi fr19fe98P Implementation of Public Law 103-159, Relating to the Permanent This issue cannot wait! No time to procrastinate. The commentary period is nearly over. I have attached a sample letter that you can use and modify. In the letter are the mailing address and important reasons the proposed regulations should be withdrawn. Please act now. Don't wait for the 'good ol' boys' at the NRA. David Post post@fc.hp.com These opinions are mine and mine alone. ============================================================================ May 17, 1998 3954 Boxelder Dr. Loveland, CO 80538 Chief, Regulations Division Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms P.O. Box 50221 Washington, D.C. 20091-0221 Attention: Notice No. 857 (proposed regulations to implement the "instant check" provisions of the "Brady Act"). To Whom It May Concern: I am writing to express objections to the proposed regulations. The proposed regulations defer citizens privacy to the hands of the Justice Department, but the DOJ has not been prohibited from keeping databases of firearm purchases. They have no obligation to secure their records or maintain citizen privacy. This is an attempted end-run around laws designed to regulate the BATF. The Batf has overstepped it bounds. The original intent of the Brady Bill was for the BATF to implement a check if, and only if, the states did not implement it or it was not adequate. Therefore the BATF check is not necessary. The proposed regulations appear to apply to all firearms, handguns and long guns. This is completely beyond the scope of the Brady Bill. Again, the BATF oversteps its bounds. The Brady Bill intent was to exempt states which had implemented their own instant check system. The proposed regulations fail in this respect. Finally, the proposed regulations should be directed, not toward areas of state law, but toward the very poor record of booking those violators of federal law who attempt to purchase a firearm when they have been prohibited by previous criminal activity. These proposed regulations should be withdrawn, and rewritten according to the above guidelines. David F. Post For Help with Majordomo Commands, please send a message to: Majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com with the word Help in the body of the message - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Forfeiture Hearing on Wednesday Date: 19 May 1998 16:09:37 -0600 I've taken the liberty of forwarding this message from Arnold Gaunt because I believe asset forfeiture is an issue of concern to firearms owners. I have no information other that what Arnold has written, so please direct questions to him. Sarah >Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 20:08:36 -0700 >From: "Arnold J. Gaunt" >Reply-To: ajgaunt@xmission.com >Organization: XMission >X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win16; I) >To: ajgaunt@xmission.com >Subject: Forfeiture Hearing on Wednesday > >This is another reminder of the civil asset forfeiture hearing by the >Business, Labor, and Economic Development Interim Committee. The >hearing is scheduled for 3:35 PM on Wednesday, May 20, in Room 403 of >the State Capitol. This is our opportunity to inform the Legislature >that asset forfeiture is unjust. Please plan to attend if you possibly >can. > >I will be presenting to the Committee a summary of some of the worst >forfeiture abuses that have occurred in Utah. Other topics that are >worthy of consideration and might be presented and developed by others >are: > >1. The inherent presumption of guilt in forfeiture proceedings > >2. The use of confidential informants, paid with asset forfeiture >proceeds, and the distortion of justice which results. > >3. How drug dealers can use their assets as a trade for reduced charges >and sentences. > >4. Since drug dealers make their money from junkies who steal from >innocent people or from those who effectively are stealing from their >families, why are police entitled to forfeiture proceeds instead of >victims of the drug trade? > >5. Why should drug users continue to be treated as victims when their >choice to use has caused the supply problem? Users of drugs ought to be >treated as the cause of supply rather than its victims. If the >Legislature must do something about drugs, then let's eliminate demand >instead of pursuing foolish and proven ineffective "supply side" >approaches which involve and threaten the liberty of all. Under "supply >side", all are directly or indirectly participants in drug commerce. > >6. If we don't allow our soldiers to loot from the enemy, nor allow our >tax auditors to earn commissions on successful audits, why do allow the >police to confiscate the property of innocent owners? > >7. If asset forfeiture is all about Pablo Escobar (now deceased) and >his billions, then why can't the police/prosecutors produce statistics >to back this phony assertion? > >8. Since the police have seized many homes for alleged meth lab >operations, why was not the Red Lion Hotel seized on the same basis? > >9. With regard to real property, why shouldn't owners be entitled to >the same protection as banks who can avoid forfeiture by showing they >didn't know of the alleged misuse of the property. > >10. How can the police and prosecutors be so certain of guilt when no >one is ever charged with a crime in most forfeitures? > >11. Why should prosecutors have greater incentive to pursue forfeiture >cases than murder or robbery cases, since they are reimbursed with >proceeds on successful forfeiture actions. > >I'm aware that some of you may have objections to some of these topics, >but they are intended merely to promote deeper consideration of this >issue and possibly motivate you to address the Committee. > >See you on Wednesday. > > > >http://www.le.state.ut.us/~1998/interim/html/0520blea.htm > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: The Ten Commandments of Gun Hating Date: 20 May 1998 08:11:00 -0700 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Forwarded (but wish I wrote this!) For those who didn't notice the post about the UN and civilian disarmament, this is from an excellent Illinois site: Champaign County Grassroots (CCG) branch of the Illinois State Rifle Association. (http://www.chambana.com/~CCG/ccgr.htm) ____________________ And in other news: _____________________ The Ten Commandments of Gun Hating 1.Believe everything you see, read and hear in the media. The media would never report anything false or incorrect -- Dewey really did defeat Truman. Also, the movies and television portray typical life in America. 2.Hate all forms of hunting. Killing an animal for food is one of the most barbaric and bloodthirsty things around. Hunting isn't necessary. That's what we have supermarkets for. Remember, YOU know much more about how animals live in the forest than the people who have actually been there because you watched the Nature Channel (see #1). 3.Guns cause crime. The mere possession of a gun will give a person the feeling of absolute power and the desire to go out and kill people. It's true. Remember, the media told you that guns cause crime. (see #1) 4.Ugly guns are evil guns. The media reported that Sen. Feinstein of California says that ugly guns can kill an entire room full of politicians with only three bullets! It must be true (see #1). Ugly names are also bad. Black Talon has got to be more vicious than a "Safety Slug." 5.Gun Control Works! Ignore the facts and continue to say it. Eventually you will convince yourself it is true. Besides, 95% of the time the media says it works (see #1). It must be true. 6.Assume everyone is like you. You know that if you had a gun, you might someday want to shoot your spouse in a fit of anger. Therefore everyone would probably shoot their spouses during an argument if they had a gun. 7.Be squeamish about everything. People who shoot criminals are KILLING them! It's okay to defend yourself with nerf bats, lemon juice and a noise maker, because those things don't hurt other human beings (the criminals). If you shoot them you have a mess -- blood, guts and all kinds of yucky stuff around (Eeack!!). It is better to die than kill a criminal and have than on your conscience for the rest of your life!! 8.All you need is "911". The police will always be there. If you are attacked at home, just call the police and they will be there in an instant as you put down the receiver. They know exactly where you live and are right around the corner, just like in the movies and TV (see #1). If you are attacked in public, don't worry. The police have ESP and will be right there. 9.Try to be as ignorant as possible about guns. Ignorance really is bliss. People naturally fear anything they don't understand. Don't worry, be blissful. 10.Spread as much 'disinformation' as possible. By spreading lies, rumors, misinformation and other falsehoods, you keep the general public confused, misinformed and ignorant as to the truths of gun ownership (see #9). The media does this all the time so it must be the right thing to do (see #1). COL. HARRY S. BACHSTEIN "Man is not my ultimate Judge." Visit My Website: http://members.aol.com/bach11/adventurer.htm - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: R.A.P.E., Inc. (fwd) Date: 20 May 1998 08:11:00 -0700 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- The following was intercepted by a friend who shall remain nameless. It therefore CANNOT be verified. R.A.P.E., Inc. Conquers All "Rights Are Privileges Eventually, Incorporated (R.A.P.E., Inc.) is proud to have finally kicked-off the necessary change that will ensure the final solution for the problem of the gun culture in America. Our little known, but effective, cooperation with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) in writing the Notice of Proposed Rule Making (NPRM) that will impose fees and require the transfer information of those purchasing guns to permanent records to the F.B.I. for storage and collation. More about the latter in a moment. Our public organizations, Violence Policy Center, Handgun Control, Inc., and MOST of the similarly named organs, have been very effective in carrying the message and taking the heat and focus while the National Rifle Association followed the path of least resistance, again, by pushing for National Instant Check versus state waiting periods. Those states are much harder to control than the Federals, so eliminating them from the process was essential. The F.B.I will be receiving the names and all other information from A.T.F. which they will collate with information obtained from the National Driver's license records, complete with thumbprints. Together with old military fingerprint records, credit files, and any other information we've acquired over the years [this] will be completely combined to [create] a dossier on all who apply for instant check. Initially, the most important aspect of this new program is the fee. The fee collected is hardly enough to pay for all of the above, and indeed, that is not its purpose. The fee will establish, beyond argument, that gun purchases, gun pawn redemptions, and gun returns from licensed gunsmiths are NOT a right, but are in fact, a privilege. This is the most vital aspect of Instant Check, it MUST be retained at all costs. Remember, any attempt by Republicans and other fringe groups, to remove the fee for this "service" must be fought with the arguments all Republicans use for charging fees for parks and college tuition. They should be told this is just a fee for services and it's not "fair" for those not using "the service" to pay it. Once the fee is well and truly established, it can be raised for certain types of guns, say for handguns, based on our establishing that they are subject to higher use by criminals. Eventually, like tobacco, these fees will be used to remove the less well salaried among gun purchasers from the ranks of gun buyers totally. Eventually, with the poor out of the gun culture, the remainder will be handled by painting them as rich sportsmen that are willing to put the poor at risk by practicing their dangerous sport. The United Kingdom's success from a similar ruse is a wonderful study for this plan. This memo will be followed by a more robust plan soon." Again this was intercepted by means that I cannot discuss and by person(s) that I cannot reveal. Pat Hines - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Fw: Myth About Crime Shot Down -Forwarded Date: 19 May 1998 14:14:00 -0700 Received: from legacy.lgcy.com ([209.63.171.101]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Tue, 19 May 1998 05:49:38 -0600 Received: from mail.lgcy.com by legacy.derail.org (NTList 3.02.13) id wa669340; Tue, 19 May 1998 05:46:02 -0600 Received: from async-lgcy-08-66.lgcy.com (async-lgcy-08-66.lgcy.com [209.63.185.66]) by mail.lgcy.com (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id na499031 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 05:45:59 -0600 Reply-To: X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <11455924701490@lgcy.com> X-Info: Evaluation version at legacy.lgcy.com X-ListMember: dsagers@ci.west-valley.ut.us [discussion@derail.org] Great Stuff! ---------- > From: Carl W. Spitzer IV <75313.2601@compuserve.com> > To: Rosetta > Subject: Myth About Crime Shot Down > Date: Monday, May 18, 1998 10:55 PM > > >> Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 04:11:31 -0500 > >> From: MJ > >> Subject: Edmonton Journal Editorial > >> > >> May 5, 1998 > >> > >> MYTH ABOUT CRIME SHOT DOWN > >> > >> Canadians may point smugly at U.S. crime rates, but guess what? > >> Outside of murder, there's as much violent crime north of the > >> border as south these days > >> > >> LORNE GUNTER > >> EDMONTON JOURNAL > >> > >> Lost by Canadian newspapers and networks amid their sanctimonious > >> tut-tutting about the recent rnass killings in a Jonesboro, Ark., > >> schoolyard, was the release of the third international crime > >> victimization survey (ICVS). > >> > >> In part, this is justifiable. Five simultaneous murders is a bigger > >> story than the release of another dry statistical report, especially > >> when four of the victims are children and the fifth their pregnant > >> teacher. > >> > >> The shortcoming lies in the Canadian moral clucking surrounding the > >> Jonesboro shootings versus the silence over the irnplications of the > >> ICVS. > >> > >> The CBC English television network directly blamed the National Rifle > >> Association for the five deaths in Arkansas. To hear its report, one > >> would think NRA vice-president Charlton Heston had had his finger on > >> the trigger. > >> > >> John Bierman of the Financial Post shrieked: "It's the gun culture, > >> stupid," which is true in a way, but not the way Bierman means. Then > >> he called on the Americans to emulate Canada or Britain and implement > >> strict controls on guns. > >> > >> Bierman, and several other Canadian commentators who mimicked his > >> knee-jerk reaction, ignore at least three significant points. Canada's > >> gun laws were quite strict when a madman killed 14 female students at > >> the Universite de Montreal in 1989, and yet the laws did not save them > >> (nor will the even stricter laws being implemented this fall prevent > >> future madmen from committing similar mass killings). Mass killings > >> are committed with machetes, bombs and other weapons, too, and their > >> cause perplexes psychologists and sociologists. And, if the cause of a > >> crime is cultural, a change to gun laws will be virtually powerless to > >> alter it. > >> > >> Which is why it was unforgivable that Canadian journalists should have > >> overlooked the ICVS. > >> > >> Canadians have smug attitudes towards the U.S. on a number of subjects > >> - - health care, welfare and crime among them. While in each case our > >> smugness is undeserved, it is especially undeserved on crime. > >> > >> Like several studies before it, the ICVS shows that except for murder, > >> Canadians suffer as much violent crime as Americans and more > >> non-violent crime. Our view of America as the final shootout from a > >> John Wayne movie and Canada as an idyllic scene from Anne of Green > >> Gables is so simplistic, arrogant and wrong it borders on outright > >> prejudice. > >> > >> The ICVS, conducted by Statistics Canada, shows 25 per cent of > >> Canadians were victims of crime in 1996 vs. 24 per cent of Americans. > >> Six per cent of us suffered a violent crime - robbery, armed robbery, > >> sexual assault or common assault - vs. seven per cent of Americans. > >> > >> The highest incidence of violent crime in the industrialized world was > >> in England and Wales, where eight per cent of residents were > >> victimized in 1996 (and total victimization is 40 per cent higher than > >> in the U.S.) and where gun laws are even stricter than in Canada > >> > >> Household burglaries and car thefts were as high in Canada as in the > >> U.S (in England and France they were 50 per cent higher than in North > >> America), with the added proviso that burglaries in Canada are more > >> than four times as likely to occur when the residents are home as they > >> are in the U.S. Theft of other personal property was 50 per cent > >> higher north of the 49th parallel than south. > >> > >> The vastly higher murder rate in the U.S. is an important difference. > >> But it certainly does not justify our gun laws, or discredit theirs. > >> > >> For more than a century, American murder rates have been three to 10 > >> times higher than those of other western nations. And the differences > >> in rates have remained reasonably constant before and after the > >> introduction of strict gun laws in Canada, Britain, Australia Japan, > >> New Zealand and elsewhere. Indeed, the murder rates in other > >> industrialized nations have inched closer to those in the U.S., > >> despite various attempts to register all guns or license all gun > >> owners, or even ban guns. > >> > >> Americans see murder as a solution to their problems - murder with > >> guns, murder with knives, murder with fists - much more often than do > >> the citizens of other western nations. The difference lies in their > >> culture, not just their "gun culture." Crimes of all sorts, including > >> murder, are lowest in those states with the highest rates of gun > >> ownership. States such as Vermont, New Hampshire, North Dakota and > >> Montana, where gun ownership is at least twice what it is in Canada > >> have murder rates as low as one-half that in the provinces that are > >> their immediate neighbors. > >> > >> The ICVS points out what Interpol and others have also pointed out: > >> Canadians have no reason to be smug about crime, or about gun laws. > >> -30- > >> ---- End Forwarded Article ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: JEWISH STATE SELLS US OUT to CHINA -Forwarded Date: 19 May 1998 14:26:11 -0700 FULL SIZED UN FLAG w/RED CIRCLE SLASH $15 peter.navy@rocketmail.com 1-888-4-LIBERTY for FREE VIDEO that is FANTASTIC: GET YOURS TODAY ! TODAY's COMMUNIQUE By Authority of Ephesians 5:11 ------------------ www.pokerface.com & www.klang.com <-GREAT MUSIC THIS JUST IN: BERNARD SCHWARTZ's LORAL AEROSPACE, via CLINTON QUID QUO PRO, REVEALS ADVANCED SATELITE and GUIDANCE SYSTEM TECHNOGLY SECRETS to RED COMMUNIST CHINESE BUTCHERS. NOT TO MENTION, BOEING has AGREED to CONTRACT with CHICOMS whereby all JETS SOLD to CHINA must be BUILT IN CHINA, then they can give BOEING the BOOT later, but KEEP our STATE of the ART DUAL PURPOSE FACTORIES !! Congrats to INDIA for DEFYING ONE WORLDERS and PRESERVING their OWN RIGHT to KEEP & BEAR ARMS!! U.S. Technology Shows Up in China Zionists have once again stuck a knife in the back of the United States. EXCLUSIVE TO THE SPOTLIGHT By Mike Blair Israeli arms merchants have compromised U.S. security by selling state-of-the-art U.S. jet fighter technology to Red China. The technology has allowed the Red Chinese Air Force to develop what is emerging as one of the world's foremost supersonic jet fighter-bombers. The new Red Chinese aircraft, the Jianjiji-10, more commonly referred to as the J-10, is a very close copy of the canceled Israeli IAI Lavi jet fighter, which the United States spent hundreds of millions of dollars to help the Israelis to develop. The Reagan administration eventually pulled the plug on the project as being cost prohibitive. The J-10 so closely resembles the Israeli jet that it is difficult to tell the difference between the two super sophisticated aircraft. The Red Chinese plane also resembles America's top jet fighter-bomber, the General Dynamics F-l6, which currently comprises the backbone of U.S. Air Force jet fighter strength. The fact that the Israelis have provided the Red Chinese with the technology and assistance in developing the J-10 has been confirmed in the 1998 edition of Jane's All the World Aircraft, published in Britain. "A photograph released in 1996 by the People's Liberation Army of a wind tunnel model of the J-10 showed it to be identical to the Lavi in all essential respects, apart from slightly raised foreplanes and the addition of wingroot training-edge extensions," Jane's stated. According to the latest British publication, the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence "reiterates U.S. belief that Red China has received Lavi technology for incorporation in the J-10." GAVE SECRETS TO FRIENDS To provide Israeli Aircraft Industries (IAI) the ability to build the Lavi the Pentagon gave the Israelis whatever avionics technology was available in America that they asked for. The United States also provided the bulk of what was reported to be several hundred million dollars to produce the new aircraft. At least two prototypes of the Israeli fighter were built,the B-1 and B-2, in 1986 and 1987 respectively. Then the administration of Ronald Reagan pulled the financial plug on the project, forcing the Israelis to cancel development on August 30, 1987. PLANNED 300 PLANES The Israelis had intended to build 300 of the advanced multi-role combat aircraft, including 60 two-seat training models. The swept delta-wings of the aircraft were designed in the United States by Grumman and the engine was to be a U.S. Pratt and Whitney PW1120 turbo-jet. Armament of the Lavi would consist of an internally mounted 30-millimeter cannon plus four underwing and seven under-fuselage stores attachments for a variety of bombs, missiles and rockets. The Clinton administration has been aware of the Chicom/Israel deal since at least October 1994 when a prototype of the J-10 was detected by a U.S. intelligence satellite at Red Chinese aircraftdevelopment facilities at Chengdu. Still, the White House continues to extend to the Israelis carte blanche delivery of the latest U.S. weapons technology. As an example, in the latest showdown with Iraq the U.S. further beefed up the Patriot batteries left there from the Gulf War with updated technology. There have been reports that the Israelis have also shared Patriot technology with the Red Chinese. The United States is providing the bulk of the technology and financing to Israel for the development of a new "Star Wars" type of anti-missile defense system. Currently, the Red Chinese are undertaking a massive project to modernize their arsenal of inter-continental ballistic missiles (ICBMs), some of which are capable of striking the heart of the United States. Israel, despite its protestations to the contrary and outright denials, has for years been selling advanced American weapons technology on to the Red Chinese, as well as other potential U.S. enemies. During the early 1980s top U.S. artillery technology, developed by U.S. scientists in upstate New York at an army research arsenal, was stolen by Israeli agents and was discovered in Red China during a May Day parade in Peking. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: A cultist is... Date: 19 May 1998 14:21:59 -0700 I read the following statement and then re-read the executive order lists and shudder. Josh Just ran across this quote from AG Janet Reno. From a person of such high power, these are scary words. --------- "A cultist is one who has a strong belief in the Bible and the Second Coming of Christ; who frequently attends Bible studies; who has a high level of financial giving to a Christian cause; who home schools for their children; who has accumulated survival foods and has a strong belief in the Second Amendment; and who distrusts big government. Any of these may qualify [a person as a cultist] but certainly more than one [of these] would cause us to look at this person as a threat, and his family as being in a risk situation that qualified for government interference." -Attorney General Janet Reno, Interview on 60 Minutes, June 26, 1994 "There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes, and the other is the Bill of Rights." Major General Smedley Butler USMC 1930 winner of two Congressional Medals of Honor. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Re: JEWISH STATE SELLS US OUT to CHINA -Forwarded Date: 20 May 1998 12:13:47 -0600 At 02:26 PM 5/19/98 -0700, you wrote: > U.S. Technology Shows Up in China > > Zionists have once again stuck a knife in the back of the United > States. > > EXCLUSIVE TO THE SPOTLIGHT > > By Mike Blair > > Israeli arms merchants have compromised U.S. security by selling > state-of-the-art U.S. jet fighter technology to Red China. The > technology has allowed the Red Chinese Air Force to develop what is > emerging as one of the world's foremost supersonic jet > fighter-bombers. Why in the world would China need to buy technology from Israel, when Clinton is frothing at the mouth to sell it to them at bargain-basement rates? And as far as I can tell, Clinton is busy not just sticking a knife in the back of Israel, but giving it a few good twists. That doesn't mean I condone sales of Israeli technology to China. However, the real threat to world peace is not Israel; it's the United States under Kommander Klinton. Sarah PS: The Spotlight is a viciously anti-semitic publication. While I'd defend to the death the right of anyone to publish anything, here or in print, I would hope the members of this list would voluntarily agree to avoid the use of inflammatory material. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: FW: Taxpayer Group Issues Comparison-Report Card on Senate Date: 20 May 1998 12:59:55 -0700 Commer ce Committee -Forwar Received: from web185c.bbnplanet.com (web185c.bbnplanet.com [207.121.186.185]) by web185c.bbnplanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA16813; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:40:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BRONZE.RNC.ORG by BRONZE.RNC.ORG (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 15138 for PRESSLIST@BRONZE.RNC.ORG; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:37:34 -0700 Received: from web185c.bbnplanet.com (web185c.bbnplanet.com [207.121.186.185]) by web185c.bbnplanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA16579 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:37:33 -0700 (PDT) Approved-By: IRudak@RNCHQ.ORG Received: from exchange.rnchq.org (EXCHANGE.RNCHQ.ORG [207.94.140.2]) by web185c.bbnplanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA16567 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:36:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by EXCHANGE.RNCHQ.ORG with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:26:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Message-ID: <4098E913624DD111BB8400805FCCDF6F59B00F@EXCHANGE.RNCHQ.ORG> Reply-To: Irene Rudakewych - Communications Sender: RNC Press List ce Committee > ----------------- Message requiring your approval (55 lines) > ------------------ > Press Release of the National Taxpayers Union > For Immediate Release - Wednesday, May 20, 1998 > Contact: John Berthoud (703) 683-5700 > > > Taxpayer Group Issues "Comparison-Report Card" on Senate Commerce > Committee Tax Bill > > Senate Bill Earns "F" and is "Strikingly Similar" to 1993 Clinton Tax > Hike > > > (Washington, DC) - The 300,000-member National Taxpayers Union (NTU) > today issued a "Comparison-Report Card" of the pending Senate Commerce > Committee tobacco tax legislation that showed the measure to be > "strikingly similar" to the 1993 tax hike engineered by President Bill > Clinton. The group concluded that "from the American taxpayers' point > of view, both pieces of legislation earn an 'F.'" > > "It is ironic that Republicans who so sharply denounced the > big-government tax hike in 1993 that was done in the name of children > are leading the charge for exactly the same thing today," observed NTU > President John Berthoud. "The remarkable resemblance of this > Republican-led tax hike to the 1993 tax increase of Democrat Bill > Clinton gives credence to the claims that there is often not much of a > difference between the two parties in Washington." > > The NTU analysis was in response to issuance of a "report card" by > Senator John McCain (R-AZ) on the pending Commerce Committee > legislation. > > Berthoud noted that the similarities between the two pieces of > legislation are striking. "Both bills are done in the name of kids, > both raise hundreds of billions of dollars in new taxes on > politically-unpopular groups, both increase the size and scope of > Washington bureaucracy." NTU noted that for taxpayers, the 1993 > legislation was superior in one respect - much of the new tax money went > to deficit reduction, whereas today the money is going simply to fuel > bigger government. > > "If Washington politicians want to 'do something' about youth smoking, > the proper venue is through enforcing and perhaps expanding laws > designed to keep cigarettes out of the hands of children. The answer to > the problem most definitely is not hundreds of billions of dollars in > new taxes to feed hungry Washington bureaucracies," Berthoud concluded. > > National Taxpayers Union is a non-profit, nonpartisan organization > founded in 1969 that works for lower taxes, less wasteful spending, and > accountable government at all levels. Note: the NTU "Comparison-Report > Card" is available at NTU's web site (www.ntu.org) or by calling NTU > (703-683-5700). > > 1 - 30 - > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: NAFLFD Firearms Record Date: 20 May 1998 13:50:42 -0700 Even as a private firearms collector, you should have all your firearms receipts and dispositions in a BATF approved firearms record book. The National Association of Federally Licensed Firearms Dealers is offering the official bound firearms record book to every firearms owner. This government approved record book has been in use for over twenty years, and is currently in use in thousands of firearms stores all across the country. The large 12"x18-1/2" format is handy for easy listing of all BATF required information. With ever-changing liability and "negligence" laws, we can only guess at what might be a future liability problem five or ten years from now. Every firearm owner really should have a complete record of "receipt" and "disposition" of each and every firearm. Just ask your local dealer ... You do not want BATF at your door informing you that you are the last trace to a firearm, and NOT have a record of the history of that firearm on hand. Also, in the unfortunate event that your firearm might be stolen, you need to have an accurate record of exact serial numbers, make, model, etc. for police reports and insurance purposes. Otherwise, you open yourself up to possible future liability problems. The professional NAFLFD firearms record book has 500 complete "receipt" and "disposition" spaces for 500 transactions. For the average collector, this is enough room for a lifetime of firearms collecting. And for the dealer, the NAFLFD book is a must for effective record-keeping. At only $19.95, which includes shipping and handling, it's real effective firearms insurance. MasterCard and VISA are accepted. Call today: (954) 561-3505 or email us at recordbook@amfire.com. Don't wait until it's too late. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: NYT: Philadelphia takes action against gun violence Date: 20 May 1998 14:45:50 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id QAA00833; Wed, 20 May 1998 16:19:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma000444; Wed May 20 16:15:10 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: pwatson@utdallas.edu Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Source: New York Times May 20, 1998 Philadelphia Takes Action Against Gun Violence By MICHAEL JANOFSKY PHILADELPHIA -- For all the years he spent as a criminal and a drug user, Jose Rojas never saw the kinds of things now taking place in working-class neighborhoods like his in north Philadelphia. "And it's going from bad to worse," Rojas, 47, said recently, sitting in the New Creation Church in Kensington, a high-crime neighborhood where he works as a lay evangelist. "During the time I was out there as a teen-ager, then in my 20s, it was relatively difficult to get weapons. Now? Kids 11, 12, 13 years old -- they're packing .45-caliber semi-automatics, Uzis, magnums, you name it." And they are not afraid to use them. While the rates of homicide and violent crime are declining in many of the country's largest cities, they are holding firm in Philadelphia. Although a slight dip over the first four months of this year has given officials some hope, the number of homicides has hovered steadily at around 400 a year for nearly a decade. A majority of the deaths were caused by high-powered handguns, and a majority of the weapons were wielded by people under 23. The problem has become so intolerable that Mayor Edward Rendell has appointed a deputy mayor -- dubbed the gun czar -- to coordinate local and federal efforts to stem the flow of weapons in the city. And in a move modeled after the actions against tobacco companies, he has threatened to sue gun manufacturers to recoup some of the money spent by the city's hospitals to treat gunshot victims. Officials say they think one of the biggest factors in the high homicide rate is a 1995 gun law that has removed some of the discretion the police department had to deny permits for carrying concealed weapons. The new law, they say, has contributed to a boom in gun buying here that has given Pennsylvania the distinction of having more licensed carriers of concealed weapons than any other state. The legal age for buying a gun in Pennsylvania is 18, and most permit holders are legitimate gun owners. But law-enforcement experts here say that the state measure opened the door to a vibrant black market in handgun sales, in which buyers for whom routine background checks pose no problem can act as straw-man buyers and resell the guns on the street for handsome profits. Furthermore, officials say, the sheer number of guns on the street in Philadelphia means more weapons are finding their way into the hands of young people. Before the Uniform Firearms Action of 1995 was passed, state lawmakers recognized Philadelphia, Pennsylvania's largest city, as a special case on gun issues because of its persistently high crime rates. The police department had the right to turn down a request for a concealed weapons permit if the applicant could not demonstrate "a reasonable need." In 1994, just 1,500 permits were issued. Over all, the new law strengthened the application process by requiring deeper background checks. But after the exception for Philadelphia was eliminated, the number of permits issued soared, to about 11,500 in 1996, said Richard Zapille, the deputy mayor appointed to lead the gun control efforts. "That was a real blow to our efforts here," Rendell said of the gun law. "We weren't doing great before, but after the law passed, the number of permits issued to carry a concealed weapon was unbelievable." Rendell appointed a handgun violence task force four years ago when it became evident that his city was failing to keep pace with the rest of the nation in reducing violent crime. But efforts to slow the mayhem have not made any appreciable difference in some of the city's poorest neighborhoods, despite the slight dip in the homicide rate for the first four months of this year. Guns continue to flow in, and landscapes of abandoned factories, rotting houses and trash-strewn streets only make the life of a gun-toting drug dealer seem that much more glamorous to impressionable youngsters. "Young children walking to school see these guys all in gold, wearing rings on their fingers and $150 sneakers," said Rojas, who spent 13 months in prison on drug charges. "They are influenced just by the way they look. They think, 'I want to be like him.' They have money. They have expensive sneakers and they have guns." A study conducted by the task force found that of 273 people charged with murder in a 40-month period through March 1997, 171 of them -- more than 62 percent -- were 22 or younger. That is far above the national average. In 1995, the last full year for which federal data is available, the Department of Justice found that among the 16,701 people across the country arrested for murder or non-negligent manslaughter, just 6,556 of them -- 39.8 percent -- were 22 years old or younger. In the same year, Philadelphia's homicide rate of 30.7 per 100,000 residents was nearly twice as high as New York City's 16.1 per 100,000. Members of the mayor's task force, as well as community leaders like Rojas who work with them, agree that much of the reason for the pervasiveness of handguns is the same as in other cities -- drugs. "The drugs begot guns, and they're both so entrenched now that good people feel the need to carry guns," Zapille said in a recent drive through Kensington and other low-income neighborhoods. But Philadelphia has labored under additional burdens: The city was slow to coordinate crime-fighting with community outreach programs. Deep losses in its manufacturing base made Philadelphia's economic recovery less rapid than that of other cities, and poverty is deeply entrenched in many neighborhoods. Tougher gun laws in surrounding states have made purchases here easier by comparison. Among the six states that border Pennsylvania, four -- New York, New Jersey, Delaware, and Maryland -- give local law-enforcement officials the discretion Philadelphia once had to deny permits to carry a concealed weapon to anyone they think does not have a legitimate reason. In West Virginia, the police have no such discretion. Ohio does not permit carrying a concealed weapon. To quantify the magnitude of the problem in Philadelphia, the police department and the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms conducted an intensive study of trafficking in all type of guns last year. The results included these findings: - --In almost half of the legitimate sales, involving 38,338 guns, two or more were bought at the same time. Almost 8 percent of the guns, 3,046, were bought in purchases of 10 or more. - --The police traced 2,865 guns recovered in arrests and found that 69 percent were bought in Pennsylvania, the highest percentage ever recorded, and a 10 percent increase over 1996. They also found that 53 percent were bought in Philadelphia, an 11 percent increase over 1996. - --Firepower on the street is rising among the youngest offenders. Of 342 guns recovered from juveniles at the time of arrest, 65 percent were semi-automatic weapons, a 13 percent increase over the relative number of comparable weapons recovered in 1996. Twenty-six percent were revolvers, a 12 percent decrease. Defenders of the state law, which was strongly supported by state Sen. Vincent Fumo, a Democrat from Philadelphia, argue that problems in Philadelphia stem not from the law itself but from lax enforcement of its provisions, some of which are unique among the states that allow residents to carry concealed weapons. In addition to denying a permit to anyone with a felony conviction or mental health problem, the norm for most states, Pennsylvania is now alone in banning the sale of guns to anyone who had a police record as a juvenile and to anyone classified as a "habitual drunken driver." And starting in July, the law requires any private sale of a gun to be conducted before a licensed dealer or local law-enforcement officer. "We chose to focus on the potential gun owner," said Christopher Craig, legal counsel to Fumo. "When the law is aggressively enforced, it will have a dramatic impact in the state." But Rendell and others scoff at the notion that those involved in illegal street sales will suddenly comply with the state gun law. "All I know is what we're facing on the street," said Thomas Stankiewicz, an agent with the federal firearms agency in Philadelphia. "We've had some success. But guns are always in demand, and the supply is readily accessible." Philadelphia police officials said that more aggressive strategies in arresting people for illegal gun possession helped bring down the homicide rate for the first third of the year, to a projected year-end total of 321. And officials in other city agencies say new programs of community outreach and intervention are also disrupting cycles of violence. But in Rojas' neighborhood, progress is slow. Children walking to school fear walking the blocks where gun sellers operate, he said, and on many nights, gunfire punctuates the silence. "Sometimes it sounds like Vietnam around my house," Rojas said. "The other night, I heard two different-caliber guns go off. I didn't know what was going on, but I turned to my wife and said: 'Maybe we'll read about it in the papers tomorrow.' " Copyright 1998 The New York Times Company ====================================================================== NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. ====================================================================== - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Unions and the RKBA -Forwarded Date: 21 May 1998 08:14:55 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id GAA26670; Thu, 21 May 1998 06:42:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma026591; Thu May 21 06:42:18 1998 Message-Id: <199805211008.GAA24476@unix.worldpath.net> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: walkerd@worldpath.net Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list The AFL-CIO is gearing up for another assault on our Republic . They plan to organize at the grassroots level , spending unbelieveable money doing so . Prez. Sweeney has assured the Democart Party he will train and send out field co-ordinators for this next ellection . They will help the most liberal , anti-freedom candidate they can find . I wonder how many union members know that Sweeney is a card-carring member of the Democratic Socialist of America ? An organization sworn to coverting our republic to a socialist democrocy . These folks are for state controled everything . It's not just about guns - it's about freedom . God Bless You All , and God Save Our Republic . Don - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Memorial Day Thought (fwd) Date: 21 May 1998 10:48:47 -0700 ----------Forwarded Message---------- Organization: Mori Ante Cedere! Got this from a friend in the military. All I can say is WOW! Nancy =============== Condensed from a speech by Leo K. Thorness, recipient of The Congressional Medal of Honor. You've probably seen the bumper sticker somewhere along the road. It depicts an American Flag, accompanied by the words "These colors don't run." I'm always glad to see this, because it reminds me of an incident from my confinement in North Vietnam at the Hao Lo POW Camp, or the "Hanoi Hilton," as it became known. Then a Major in the U.S. Air Force, I had been captured and imprisoned from 1967-1973. Our treatment had been frequently brutal. After three years, however, the beatings and torture became less frequent. During the last year, we were allowed outside most days for a couple of minutes to bathe. We showered by drawing water from a concrete tank with a homemade bucket. One day as we all stood by the tank, stripped of our clothes, a young Naval pilot named Mike Christian found the remnants of a handkerchief in a gutter that ran under the prison wall. Mike managed to sneak the grimy rag into our cell and began fashioning it into a flag. Over time we all loaned him a little soap, and he spent days cleaning the material. We helped by scrounging and stealing bits and pieces of anything he could use. At night, under his mosquito net, Mike worked on the flag. He made red and blue from ground-up roof tiles and tiny amounts of ink and painted the colors onto the cloth with watery rice glue. Using thread from his own blanket and a homemade bamboo needle, he sewed on stars. Early in the morning a few days later, when the guards were not alert, he whispered loudly from the back of our cell, "Hey gang, look here." He proudly held up this tattered piece of cloth, waving it as if in a breeze. If you used your imagination, you could tell it was supposed to be an American flag. When he raised that smudgy fabric, we automatically stood straight and saluted, our chests puffing out, and more than a few eyes had tears. About once a week the guards would strip us, run us outside and go through our clothing. During one of those shakedowns, they found Mike's flag. We all knew what would happen. That night they came for him. Night interrogations were always the worst. They opened the cell door and pulled Mike out. We could hear the beginning of the torture before they even had him in the torture cell. They beat him most of the night. About daylight they pushed what was left of him back through the cell door. He was badly broken; even his voice was gone. Within two weeks, despite the danger, Mike scrounged another piece of cloth and began another flag. The Stars and Stripes, our national symbol, was worth the sacrifice to him. Now whenever I see the flag, I think of Mike and the morning he first waved that tattered emblem of a nation. It was then, thousands of miles from home in a lonely prison cell, that he showed us what it is to be truly free. ********************************************************* To post a message to AEN NEWS, address it to news@aen.org. Regards, Jim ********************************************************** James A. Ross -Ross Group, LLC -Manassas, VA USA Surveillance and Countersurveillance Services Worldwide Telephone: 800-US-DEBUG -Facsimile: 703-365-0363 email: jross@rosseng.com - home: http://www.rosseng.com ********************************************************** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Gun Owners Petition (fwd) -Forwarded Date: 21 May 1998 17:53:44 -0700 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Thu, 21 May 1998 17:37:45 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id TAA15007; Thu, 21 May 1998 19:35:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma014791; Thu May 21 19:33:05 1998 Message-Id: <9805212246.0jhw@xpresso.seaslug.org> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: noban@xpresso.seaslug.org Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list This may bear some discussion, but seems good so far..... On May 20, ShootStuff wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] I am a WAC member (#45795) and a citizen who is tired of seeing my rights eroded daily. A group of us after much discussion in the forums of www.guns.com came up with a petition that we want to present (with thousands of signatures) to the pro-gun groups. All we want is for them to work together in a unified front against the increasing onslaught of both national and international assaults on our basic and fundamental rights. Please review the petition and place a link on the WAC page to give the members the opportunity to decide if this is a cause they want to put their name on. The address is http://members.aol.com/FIGHTFORUS/GunownersPetition.html Also please send this message out to the email list. The names are only going to be used for this petition. No mailing lists or requests for anything. Just stand up and be counted. Thank you Dan Clark ShootStuff@aol.com [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Re: Question for San Antonio listmembers (fwd) -Forwarded Date: 21 May 1998 18:01:25 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id KAA14348; Thu, 21 May 1998 10:46:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma013968; Thu May 21 10:45:43 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: pwatson@utdallas.edu Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Reply-To: texas-gun-owners@Mailing-List.net Posted to texas-gun-owners by csmkersh@flash.net (Sam A. Kersh) DF uses ceramic bullets to cut down on richocets. But they are deadly and are an assasin's dream... ............................................................................ Delta Force bid for S.A. exercise gets shots down Express-News: News: Nation Delta Force bid for S.A. exercise gets shots down By Sig Christenson and Christopher Anderson Express-News Staff Writers First came the loud whirring of helicopter blades, then booming explosions followed by the crackle of small-arms fire. Dazed, confused and frightened, nearby residents in working-class homes awakened in the dead of night, tumbled from their beds, scrambled for shelter and called for help. This wasn't war-torn Bosnia, the terrorist-ravaged Middle East or the crime-plagued city of Washington, but another night of Army Special Operations training Delta Force-style -- this time in Houston, Charlotte, N.C., and Des Plaines, Ill. "We didn't have black-clad ninjas running through the city of Des Plaines," said Police Chief Bob Sturlini, whose community of 55,000 people borders Chicago. But by giving Army Special Operations troops the green light to use their cities for urban counterterrorist training, top municipal officials in Des Plaines, Charlotte and Houston had a bigger problem: a public relations black eye. In the past three years, the Special Operations Command has conducted such exercises in at least 21 U.S. cities, including Atlanta, Chicago, Dallas, Detroit, Los Angeles, Miami, New Orleans, Pittsburgh and Seattle. San Antonio was to be next in line for such exercises, but City Manager Alex Briseño, Police Chief Al Philippus and Mayor Howard Peak practically slammed the door Tuesday on proposed Delta Force training here. Peak said the crack outfit won't get the key to San Antonio unless it can ensure public safety. "They ought to go out and look for a set in Hollywood or something," the mayor said late Tuesday. "If they're looking for a place to play, that might be more suitable than a real, live city and all the things we've got to look out for." Said Philippus: "As far as I'm concerned, it's over. We're not willing to support them." The elite, deadly and super-secret Delta Force has spent the past several months quietly negotiating leases and meeting with police to map out nighttime mock air and ground assaults using live ammunition, explosive charges and low- flying helicopters over vacant West Side and East Side buildings. A self-described Delta Force team leader Tuesday would not say whether his unit asked to train here or even admit the unit exists. But a two-page memorandum issued to the City Council, dated April 14 and signed by Philippus and City Attorney Frank Garza, describes a meeting in which Delta Force members and municipal officials discussed a mock assault. The training exercises would involve about 100 Delta Force commandos being dropped onto the rooftops of buildings by hovering helicopters under the cover of darkness. They would use explosives to blow their way inside, then fire on targets with possibly deadly ceramic bullets. No date had been set for the exercises, which would have included St. Theresa's Academy and brushed homes on the Southeast Side. "The nuns still live back there, and they're very protective," said Councilwoman Debra Guerrero, whose district includes the academy. "It's totally surrounded by neighborhoods." Delta Force might not have gotten wind of public reaction had their "raids" been sanctioned by the city, but Peak, Philippus and Guerrero almost certainly would not have been as fortunate. The flash, bang and pop of commando training in the city left Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Chief Dennis Nowicki and former Houston Police Chief Sam Nuchia with a bad case of klieg-light burn. Like their fellow residents, neither man even knew Delta Force was in town -- until they faced the harsh glare of TV minicams. "We had not informed the community," said Nuchia, now a state appeals court judge, "and then, of course, the news media frenzied on it." In Des Plaines, hundreds of residents frightened by low-flying helicopters and explosions, called police. The city of San Antonio memorandum, citing a lengthy story in the February 1997 edition of Soldier of Fortune magazine, said Delta Force confirmed that $100,000 in property damage resulted from an explosion in a warehouse district near New Orleans. In Miami, a bullet fired during a Delta Force raid went awry, ricocheting into the window of an all- night restaurant. Commandos in Charlotte flew helicopters at treetop level over a lower middle-class, predominantly African-American neighborhood near a warehouse district on the night of March 4, 1997, prompting one man to grab "his shotgun out of fear," Nowicki said. An old abandoned warehouse just northwest of downtown was the target. Nuchia said a Special Operations exercise startled Houstonians in the Ship Channel area, causing residents to call 911. Nuchia called the negative fallout from the mission "our responsibility and our failure," but Nowicki said Delta Force stumbled by putting its own needs ahead of his city. "I don't think that they failed in their mission, but they failed in helping us accomplish our mission," he said. "Our mission is to maintain order and enhance the quality of life and to deal with the fears in our community." >....................end cite........................ Sam A. Kersh CSM, USA (ret) NRA Life Member BRR9724W TSRA Life Member JPFO, LEAA 52662 Ducks Unlimited Operation Game Thief http://www.flash.net/~csmkersh/csmkersh.htm -- For help with Majordomo commands, send a message to majordomo@mailing-list.net with the word help in the message body. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Some first hand info on the Springfield shooting Date: 22 May 1998 09:05:41 -0700 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Fri, 22 May 1998 08:13:47 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id KAA13271; Fri, 22 May 1998 10:12:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma013082; Fri May 22 10:08:21 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: pwatson@utdallas.edu Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list ---------- Forwarded message ---------- For the sake of clarity and attention to detail, I have a wife here who's sister was present at this incident. Reuter's missed/glossed a few points: On May 21, 1998 5:10 PM EDT, Todd Murphy wrote: >SPRINGFIELD, Ore. (Reuters) - A heavily-armed 15-year-old boy opened >fire in a high school cafeteria Thursday, killing one person and >injuring at least 23 others... >The youth, who >had been expelled Wednesday for bringing a gun to school, stood >on a table in the Thurston High School cafeteria... He didn't stand on the table, he stood AT the table, where he had previously been sitting. No Rambo Image here, sorry. >When he ran out of ammunition he reached for one of several other >weapons but was tackled by students... He didn't run out of ammo before he was tackled. One of his tacklers was shot in the hand while tackling him. >who held him until police arrived, witnesses said. "Held" him is a little off. The boys BEAT THE LIVING TAR out of Kip. We are talking about a major pummeling from a couple of wrestlers. The kid holding him down for the beating reports that Kip was screaming for them to quit pounding him, but the 'holder' just told him to shut up. >One witness told reporters one of the >students who tackled the gunman was shot and wounded. How could this happen if he had run out ammo, as this article claims earlier. By the way, this kid that got shot while tackling Kip did not let the wound stop him from joining in on the pounding. A student, after assisting a fellow classmate with a gaping back wound, approached my sister in law in tears. She is now in hysterics. Kiplin Kinkle, fifteen, was voted "Most Likely to Start World War Three" two years in a row in the school's yearbook. He was known to take things too far, and hold grudges. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: CNN Poll on School Shooting in Oregon (fwd) -Forwarded Date: 22 May 1998 09:08:11 -0700 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Thu, 21 May 1998 20:08:22 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id WAA28528; Thu, 21 May 1998 22:06:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma028040; Thu May 21 22:01:40 1998 Message-Id: <9805220127.0jix@xpresso.seaslug.org> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: noban@xpresso.seaslug.org Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list On May 21, David Wisniewski wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] http://www.cnn.com As of 6:40pm EST Who or what is most responsible for school violence? Kids 9% Parents 29% Schools 1% Media %12 Access to Guns 26% All of the Above 20% None of the Above 2% [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: HCI STATEMENT - SHOOTING IN OREGON Date: 22 May 1998 09:20:27 -0700 http://www.handguncontrol.org/press/reaction.htm For Immediate Release May 21, 1998 STATEMENT OF SARAH BRADY RE: SCHOOL SHOOTING IN OREGON (Washington, D.C.) "Today#s shooting at Thurston High School in Springfield, Oregon should bring every American to the realization that the tragedy of kids and guns will not go away # and is, in fact, escalating. "In early June, Representative Carolyn McCarthy will introduce comprehensive legislation, the Children Gun Violence Prevention Act of 1998, because it is time that Congress takes responsibility for preventing more Springfields and more Jonesboros. This legislation will hold parents responsible if they leave their guns accessible to kids, and stringently penalize those gun dealers and others who are selling firearms to juveniles. It will demand that the gun manufacturers finally develop and market a childproof gun, and extend the current ban on juvenile handgun possession to include semi-automatic assault rifles. The research dollars that the federal government, at the behest of the gun lobby, has not been spending on gun injuries and fatalities will be restored, and the Department of Education will help communities develop a comprehensive and objective curriculum about guns and gun violence for use in their schools. "No Member of Congress will be able to find a sensible or sane reason to refuse support to this legislation. This is about responsibility, safety and education. In 1998, our politicians must support legislation to keep guns out of the hands of our kids because Americans cannot stand to read about one more horrific child murderer. "There is much we do not yet know about Springfield, but one thing is clear. The #Southern gun culture# that was examined so closely after Jonesboro does not pertain to this small town in the Pacific Northwest. This shooting in Oregon demonstrates that there is nowhere in this nation, no matter how low its crime rates, that is immune from the problem of kids and guns. All it takes is one disturbed child with access to one gun for this kind of tragedy to happen." Information Related to the Springfield Shooting Oregon received a "D" in Handgun Control, Inc.#s annual Kids & Guns Report Card. We urge all concerned citizens to call their Representatives in Congress and urge them to co-sponsor The Children#s Gun-Violence Prevention Act of 1998, that will be introduced by Representative Carolyn McCarthy. The Capitol Hill switch board number is (202) 225-3121. Call today! Please click below for more background information about the problem of children and guns in the United States: #Representative Carolyn McCarthy to introduce legislation to protect our children. #Legislative Action that will protect our families and our communities. #Guns in our Nation#s Schools: In the past two years, over 6,000 students have been expelled for bringing firearms to school# More information about the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence#s child safety programs, please click here. # # # Handgun Control, Inc., chaired by Sarah Brady, is the nation#s largest citizens# gun control lobbying organization. Based in Washington, DC, HCI works to enact stronger federal, state and local gun control laws, but does not seek to ban handguns. Founded in 1974, HCI has more than 400,000 members nationwide and works with local groups around the country to enact and protect reasonable gun control laws. More information about HCI and its affiliated organization, the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence, can be found on our website at http://www.handguncontrol.org. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Freedom is not free -Forwarded Date: 22 May 1998 09:41:09 -0700 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Fri, 22 May 1998 03:30:10 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id FAA22865; Fri, 22 May 1998 05:26:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma022605; Fri May 22 05:23:07 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: eschelon@eschelon.seanet.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list To all, to noone in general, This is a memorium, that appeared in the the obit column, of The Herald, Everett, Washington State, the essence is in the message. I, as a general rule, don't usually peruse the obit column, but for whatever reason the forlorn look on that young Marine's face caught my attention. So young I thought, to die, so early in life. The look of him is for all the world like one of the daguerreotype photo's one sees of the Civil War reproductions of soldiers of the period. If what follows don't yank at your chain, then your mettle is tougher than mine. ET In memoriam to Ronald M. Hayes, October 16, 1947 - May 21, 1967. I watched the flag pass by one day, It fluttered in the breeze, A younge Marine saluted it, and then He stood at ease; I looked at him in uniform, so young, so tall, so proud, With hair cut square and eyes alert, He'd stand out in a crowd. I thought how many men like him had fallen through the years, How many had died on foreign soil? How many mother's tears? How many pilot's planes shot down? How many died at sea? How many fox holes were soldiers graves? No, freedom is not free. I heard the sound of taps one night, When everything was still, I listened to the bugler play And felt a sudden chill. I wondered just how many times That taps meant "Amen", When a flag draped a coffin Of a brother of a friend. I thought of all the children, Of the mothers and the wives, Of fathers, sons and husbands with interupted lives. I thought about a graveyard At the bottom of the sea, Of unmarked graves in Alington, No, freedom is not free. Remember: Memorialize the fallen. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: GRNC NATIONWIDE ALERT: 5-21-98 -Forwarded Date: 22 May 1998 09:55:47 -0700 Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely.concentric.net [207.155.184.83]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id VAA15302; Thu, 21 May 1998 21:47:58 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Errors-To: Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts003d13.ral-nc.concentric.net [206.173.77.73]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.8.8) id VAA10267; Thu, 21 May 1998 21:46:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980521204546.0370de54@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: wa4gnw@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Grass Roots North Carolina/Forum for Firearms Education P.O. Box 401, Sherrills Ford, NC 28673 (704) 478-4121, http://www.grnc.org GRNC NATIONWIDE ALERT: 5-21-98 Irresponsible news coverage is contributing to gun deaths among children: STOP CNN FROM CREATING COPYCAT SCHOOL SHOOTINGS The shootings in Oregon are now creating fever-pitch news coverage on CNN and other television stations. The results will be the same as those for similar incidents in Pearl, Paducah, and Jonesboro: The continued death of children in schools. Describing what he called "copycatting," criminologist Thomas Blomberg was quoted in USA TODAY after the Jonesboro shootings: "'Right now there are kids out there taking this in. They're saying `man, those kids in Arkansas were 11 and 13 and they blew those people away and they were in camouflage, man.'" HIS PREDICTIONS HAVE COME TRUE AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO AS LONG AS THE MEDIA EXPLOITS JUVENILE VIOLENCE IN PURSUIT OF RATINGS. GRNC implores you to: 1. Contact CNN IMMEDIATELY at (404) 827-0234, http://www.cnn.com/feedback/ and tell them in no uncertain terms: Their media feeding frenzies after recent school tragedies are KILLING CHILDREN Non-stop coverage must cease immediately to avoid future tragedies. The media rightly maintains that gun owners must be responsible. But so too they must be responsible in their news coverage. 2. Contact local newspaper and television outlets with the same message. --- end --- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Reese/Civilian Disarmament Date: 22 May 1998 13:29:16 -0600 Those who pull the gun ploy do so to avoid facing up to truth By Charley Reese Commentary Published in The Orlando Sentinel, May 19, 1998 Orange County Chairman Linda Chapin, who seems to think she was elected County Mother, has finally pulled the gun ploy. The gun ploy is a tactic politicians who are not doing the job they were elected to do often use to distract voters. Chapin's job is being the top administrator of Orange County government. Judging from the problems at the jail and from the results of all the referenda, she's not doing a good job. So she comes out with the gun ploy, professing to be outraged and concerned about the rest of us allegedly having disinterest in saving children's lives. And she plays the ploy according to the script. First she exaggerates the problem. Accidental firearm deaths are dead last, even counting adults, as a cause of accidental deaths in the United States. The big killers of children are automobile accidents and, especially in Florida, drowning. In 1993, of the 90,523 Americans who died from accidents, 1,521 died in firearms accidents, and that includes both adults (by far the majority) and children. By contrast, 3,800 people drowned; 13,000 died in falls; 7,300 died from poisoning; and 41,000 died in motor-vehicle accidents. Second she trashes the National Rifle Association, accusing it of not being interested in keeping guns out of the hands of children and criminals. That is pure ignorance, at best, or a big, fat fib, at worst. The National Rifle Association is the premier teacher of gun safety and has been teaching gun safety and promoting stiff penalties for criminal use of firearms since long before Chapin even was born. She includes 19-year-olds as ``children'' and lumps together three separate, unrelated categories of accidents, homicides and suicides. She resorts to falsehood to rap the National Rifle Association and its members, and ends up advocating mandatory trigger locks. Now that's a stupid sugges-tion for two reasons. One, it is unenforceable unless she plans to declare martial law and conduct a house-to-house search on a daily basis. Two, someone stupid or careless enough to leave a loaded gun within reach of children would be stupid or careless enough to remove the trigger lock. You can't solve human problems with laws regulating inanimate objects. Finally, by blaming an inanimate object for the pathological behavior of human beings she reveals herself as irrational and superstitious. Yes, Mrs. Chapin, just put on your witch-doctor suit, shake your rattles and murmur at this inanimate object, the gun, and suddenly, by magic, it will give everyone a high intelligence quotient, high morals, a sense of responsibility and a healthy mind. Guns no more cause crimes or suicides than bricks cause buildings. A constant can never be the cause of a variable. In America, the constants are private ownership and ready access to firearms. The variable is the crime rate. As a matter of fact, firearms are less available and less accessible today than they have been at any other time in American history. But what liberals are really trying to do with the gun ploy is avoid facing the truth. The violent and brutish society they complain about is precisely the society they created. Everything liberals wanted they got. They wanted sexual promiscuity, dope, disregard for the law, no censorship of pornography, no laws against sodomy or public profanity, abortion on demand (the single biggest killer of children), easy divorces, acceptance of homosexuality, civilian review boards to second-guess police, Miranda warnings and public defenders, a welfare system that paid women to have illegitimate children and a tax system that penalized marriage, work, savings and investments and subsidized non-work and immorality. And they got every darn bit of it. It's called reaping what you sow, and it has nothing to do with firearms. [Posted 05/18/98 8:05 PM EST] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ * NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. Liberty's Educational Advocacy Forum http://freedomlaw.com promotes "action that raises the cost of State violence for its perpetrators . . . lay(ing) the basis for institutional change." [Noam Chomsky] Dr. Tavel's Self Help Clinic and Sovereign Law Library http://drtavel.com/selfhelp.htm Not a high-tech law firm brochure, "because a lawyer is only as smart as you make him" [Max Katz] and "the Law . . . should be accessible to every man and at all times." [Franz Kafka] For Liberty in Our Lifetime, R.J. Tavel, J.D., managing partner, Tavel & Stewart, Public Interest Law Firm, Bringing you "a whole new boutique of wonderful First Amendment litigation." [J. Scalia] http://freedomlaw.com/T&S/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Learning to take the blame (Fwd) -Forwarded Date: 22 May 1998 16:09:56 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id QAA21384; Fri, 22 May 1998 16:57:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma021041; Fri May 22 16:56:04 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980522102959.006b0d10@lava.net> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: bbaron@lava.net Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Here is a thoughtful and well written statement that goes to the heart of the violence problem. I believe the points the writer makes are well worth remembering and using. Brian Baron, Chair Hawaii Citizens' Rights PAC >From: SYTEK Robert >To: "'Brian Baron'" >Subject: Learning to take the blame >Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 14:51:47 -0400 >X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) > >Brian: >On CNN today they again blamed the rise in school shootings on the >availability of guns. It seems the media are willing to point the finger >everywhere but at themselves. > >My own Mother, who is neutral on gun issues, pointed out to me a study that >tracked children's behavior over a 10 or 15 year span. The study showed that >children who do not have violent tendencies and watch typical violent >television exhibit violent behavior and children who exhibit violent >tendencies and do not watch typical violent television do not exhibit >violent behavior. > >Remember when the movie the Exorcist came out in theaters? Late 1970's I >recall. Anyway, back then movie and television violence wasn't so common. I >recall during some of the more graphic scenes people actually getting >nauseous and leaving the theater! Nowadays children view movies with much >more graphic content and aren't affected. It seems our society in general >has become desensitized to graphic violence and the representations thereof. > >For this reason, it is even more important that the common citizen is able >to defend themselves. With children and adults desensitized to violent acts, >they are able to commit these acts without hesitation or little thought. >This makes the common citizen even more at peril and more in need of >defending their life. > >Instead of more gun control, we need to examine the quality of out >television and movie viewing. Should children be taught that violent acts >are the way to solve problems? This is the lesson that our media teaches >time and time again. But when it comes time to take blame for teaching this >violent behavior, their finger always finds somebody else to point at. > >I am unsure of the details (who, what, when) of this study about violent >behavior in children, so I will get more details when I call Mom this >weekend. > >Brian, you may pass this message on to others if you wish. I don't mean to >come off as so angry, but as a responsible gun owner I get tired of being >blamed for the ills of society. All I want to do is keep my family safe >until the police can arrive. > >Sincerely: >Robert Sytek >Technical Associate >Complete Business Solutions Inc. > > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: _TV_Causes_Murder_ -Forwarded Date: 22 May 1998 17:58:42 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id SAA28620; Fri, 22 May 1998 18:36:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma028560; Fri May 22 18:34:10 1998 Message-Id: <9805222219.0jr2@xpresso.seaslug.org> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: noban@xpresso.seaslug.org Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list As a bit of side ammo, there was a study done some years ago by a Dr. Centerwall (sp?). It's referenced in a book by Michael Medved, which if I caught the title right, is called, "Hollywood Versus America". Anyway the subject studied was the effect of TV on areas that didn't previously have TV. The study has been updated, and the results show among other things, that: 1. Academic studies decline, and 2. The Murder Rate _doubles_. Just a little something to stuff down the throats of the Media Apologists. -- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: GSL> DIPR Website -Forwarded Date: 22 May 1998 18:14:44 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id BAA18423; Thu, 21 May 1998 01:03:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma018364; Thu May 21 01:03:16 1998 Message-Id: <199805210300.VAA20118@mail2.rockymtn.net> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: davisda@rmi.net Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list >Return-Path: >Delivered-To: gsl@majordomo.pobox.com >Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 20:19:52 -0400 >From: "Val W. Finnell, MD" >Organization: NVCDL >To: gsl@listbox.com >Subject: GSL> DIPR Website >Sender: owner-gsl@listbox.com >Reply-To: gsl@listbox.com > >----------------------------------------- http://GunsSaveLives.com >Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research, Inc. (DIPR) now has a WWW >site. This will be one-stop shopping for scholarly refutations of the >medical propaganda and other junk science dealing with gun-control. > >The site is brand new and will be updated almost on a daily basis. >Please be patient. Educate yourself by visiting: > >http://www.dipr.org > > >-------------------------- >GunsSaveLives Internet Discussion List > >This list is governed by an acceptable use >policy: http://www.wizard.net/~kc/policy.html >or available upon request. > >To unsubscribe send a message to >majordomo@listbox.com > >with the following line in the body: > >unsubscribe gsl > >GUNSSAVELIVES (GSL) IS A PRIVATE UNMODERATED LIST. >THE OWNER TAKES NO RESPONSIBILTY FOR CONTENT. ALL >RIGHTS RESERVED. > > ****************** Firearms, self-defense, and other information, with LINKS are available at: http://shell.rmi.net/~davisda Latest additions are found in the group NEW with GOA and other alerts under the heading ALERTS. For those without browser capabilities, send [request index.txt] to davisda@rmi.net and an index of the files at this site will be e-mailed to you. Then send [request ] and the requested file will be sent as a message. Various shareware programs are archived at: ftp://shell.rmi.net/pub2/davisda To receive the contents of the FTP site, send [request index.ftp] to davisda@rmi.net ******************** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: RNC / New York Times -Forwarded Date: 26 May 1998 10:51:46 -0700 Received: from web185c.bbnplanet.com (web185c.bbnplanet.com [207.121.186.185]) by web185c.bbnplanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA08622; Mon, 18 May 1998 16:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BRONZE.RNC.ORG by BRONZE.RNC.ORG (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 15472 for PRESSLIST@BRONZE.RNC.ORG; Mon, 18 May 1998 16:11:36 -0700 Received: from web185c.bbnplanet.com (web185c.bbnplanet.com [207.121.186.185]) by web185c.bbnplanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA08394 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 16:11:35 -0700 (PDT) Approved-By: shenry2@IX.NETCOM.COM Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.7]) by web185c.bbnplanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA08331 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 15:56:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA17822 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 14:52:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vna-va10-40.ix.netcom.com(207.223.177.168) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma017802; Mon May 18 14:52:17 1998 X-Sender: shenry2@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980518195449.0069f0fc@ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: Sean Henry Sender: RNC Press List This is a very important summary of how the Clinton Administration has sold US security interests -- and why. Please forward it to your own lists. Mike Collins RNC Press Secretary (202) 863-8550 (Voice) (202) 863-8773 (Fax) (800) 317-4967 (Pager) E-Mail: mcollins@rnchq.org Visit Our Web Site: http://www.rnc.org ESSAY / By WILLIAM SAFIRE U.S. Security for Sale WASHINGTON -- A President hungry for money to finance his re-election overruled the Pentagon; he sold to a Chinese Military Intelligence front the technology that defense experts argued would give Beijing the capacity to blind our spy satellites and launch a sneak attack. How soon we have forgotten Pearl Harbor. October 1996 must have been some tense month for Democratic fund-raisers. The New York Times, Wall Street Journal and Los Angeles Times had begun to expose "the Asian connection" of John Huang and Indonesia's Riady family to the Clinton campaign. The fix was already in to sell the satellite technology to China. Clinton had switched the licensing over to Ron Brown's anything-goes Commerce Department. Johnny Chung had paid up. Commerce's Huang had delivered money big time (though one of his illegal foreign sources had already been spotted). The boss of the satellite's builder had come through as Clinton's largest contributor. But public outrage was absent. The F.B.I. didn't read the papers and Reno Justice did not want to embarrass the President. And television news found no pictorial values in the Asian connection. Stealthily, the Clinton Administration held back the implementation of the corrupt policy until Nov. 5 -- the day the campaign ended. Now the reporting of Jeff Gerth and The Times's investigative team is putting the spotlight of pitiless publicity on the sellout of American security. We begin to see how the daughter of China's top military commander steered at least $300,000 through the Chung channel to the D.N.C. (Apparently Mr. Chung skimmed off a chunk and may be spilling his guts lest he have to face his Beijing friends.) We begin to learn more of the Feb. 8, 1996, visit of the arms dealer Wang Jun to the Commerce office of Ron Brown, and Wang's "coffee" meeting that day with the President, the very day that Clinton approved four Chinese launches -- even as China was terrorizing Taiwan with missile tests. Clinton's explanation, which used to slyly suggest that China policy was not changed "solely" by contributors, has now switched to total ignorance: shucks, we didn't know the source of the money. But this President's D.N.C. did not know because it wanted not to know; procedures long in place to prevent the unlawful inflow of foreign funds were uprooted by the money-hungry Clintonites. Today, two years after this sale of our security, comes the unforeseen chain reaction: as China strengthens its satellite and missile technology, a new Indian Government reacts to the growing threat from its longtime Asian rival and joins the nuclear club. In turn, China feels pressed to supply its threatened ally, Pakistan, with weaponry Beijing promised us not to transfer. This makes Clinton the Proliferation President. Who has helped keep this sellout of security under wraps? In the Senate, John Glenn was rewarded with a space flight by Clinton for derogating the leads to China of the Thompson committee. Fred Thompson's warnings about China's plan to penetrate this White House were then scorned by Democratic partisans; his Government Operations Committee should now swarm all over this. The House's aggressive agent of the Clinton cover-up, Henry Waxman of California, is finally "troubled" by the prospect of damning evidence he prevented the Burton committee from finding. At least three Democratic partisans who foolishly followed Waxman in blocking the testimony of Asian witnesses may have difficulty explaining their cover-up vote to even more troubled voters in their districts. The Gerth revelations lead to more questions: Where were the chiefs of the C.I.A. and the National Security Agency, their intelligence so dependent on satellites, on the satellite technology sale to China? Is anybody at Reno Justice re-examining testimony taken by independent counsel investigating corruption at Commerce before Ron Brown's death? Does Brown's former lawyer claim "dead man's privilege" on notes? Did N.S.A. tape overseas calls of suspect Commerce officials? Who induced Commerce to lobby Clinton for control of satellite technology? And the most immediate: Will homesick prosecutor Charles LaBella, beholden to Janet Reno for his political appointment in San Diego, dare to offend his patron by calling for independent counsel? - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Memorial Day. Sgt.Lionel Keating, N.O.P.D, R.I.P. (fwd) Date: 26 May 1998 10:46:45 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id KAA19834; Tue, 26 May 1998 10:36:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma019617; Tue May 26 10:33:50 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: pwatson@utdallas.edu Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Reply-To: texas-gun-owners@Mailing-List.net Posted to texas-gun-owners by Joe Horn Lionel Keating was a brother to me for the past 20 years. He was a Sgt. from the New Orleans Police Department and for those that remember the murderous rampage a rooftop sniper started at the Howard Johnson's Hotel in downtown New Orleans decades ago, Lionel was the assault team member that ended that spree of violence in personal confrontation with the sniper. He died last week, after a prolonged and valiant battle against cancer. He was 52. He was a good husband, a good father, and raised two fine children, one of them, Jeff, replaces his dad on the NOPD. He had retired from N.O. as a Sgt., and, in asecond career, was a Sheriff's Sgt. at St. Bernard Parish Sheriff's office. He fought for two tours in Vietnam as a River Rat, (Pibber or PBR), came back and worked the streets, worked hard to advance and provide everything for his family. We was devoted to the Constitution and the Bill of rights and viewed an armed populace as backup and safety net for the Cosntitutioin's protection. He was a patient and fair policeman and never imposed his expectations of himself upon others. He frequently gave money out of his pocket to those on the skid. He saw all people as equal, some more fortunate than others, and respected their human dignity.. Always said that he thought it was better to be lucky than smart. He was the best back-up anyone in this job is ever likely to have, either in a fight or against the brass for his officers. He never gave anyone the extra thump after the fight was over. His pain is over, suffering ended, and my grief is for the loss of such a good man when such men are so sorely needed and for his grandchildren who will be deprived of his goodness and wisdom. Some will understand when I say he died well. "So I'll meet 'im later on At the place where he has gone.... Where it's always double drill and no canteen. 'E'll be squatting on the coals Giving drink to poor damned souls, an' I'll get a swig in Hell from.....my brother, Lionel Keating. plagerized from R. Kipling by me, J Horn, Sgt., L.A. Sheriff's Dept., Ret. RVN 1963/64 1966/68 To my brothers and sisters on the Wall: Every day of my life is dedicated to the life you were cheated of. To my Father, killed on the Franklin in 1945: I'm glad you cannot see how quickly we've squandered and damn near lost our freedoms, and if you can see what's taken place, I apologize, I've done my best and keep at it on a daily basis, but we are few now. -- For help with Majordomo commands, send a message to majordomo@mailing-list.net with the word help in the message body. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Waco video -Forwarded Date: 26 May 1998 11:54:55 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id MAA00468; Tue, 26 May 1998 12:38:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma000283; Tue May 26 12:36:04 1998 Message-Id: <356AD80F.3AC1@GunsSaveLives.com> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: chairman@gunssavelives.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list We need an email campaign. We were able to help sell several copies of the oscar-nominated documentary, "Waco: The Rules of Engagement," through Amazon.com recently. It obviously must be selling more than a few copies. Today I find THEY HAVE REMOVED IT FROM THEIR CATALOG. Amazon sells a lot of "Unintended Consequences" and other gun and freedom titles. Please email them at mailto:feedback@amazon.com and request they restore the Waco video, isbn 0966210506 to their catalog. This video needs wide distribution so people know what's really happening. I imagine they were pressured to remove it by the NWO. -Rick get gun books and all books through: http://thePentagon.com/Training small commission to pro-gun groups -- Don't agonize. Organize. http://GunsSaveLives.com (Opinions here are personal and not those of any organization.) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: The BBC Poll -Forwarded Date: 26 May 1998 13:55:12 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id PAA17308; Tue, 26 May 1998 15:41:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma017053; Tue May 26 15:37:50 1998 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980526192447.008d3818@inet.skillnet.com> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: rlh@recon.org Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list My comments to: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/talking_point/newsid_100000/100102.asp Bans do not work in a free society. The US once tried to ban liquor, an attempt which led to death in the streets back in the first decades of this century. Or consider the attempt to ban drugs: They remain available on nearly any street corner despite billions in costs, "no-knock" assault entries by police, and the like. Shall we now repeat these "successes" with guns? Doing so will create an even larger black market and bolder criminals, while dividing the nation's citizens against each other. Now is a time for cohesiveness, not divisiveness, amongst the law-abiding. Guns and children have co-existed in the US since its founding. Only in the past few decades has the US started restricting guns, and only in the past few years have child-gun incidents been on the rise. The guns have always been there; the children have always been there. Blaming guns is a shortsighted excuse for "doing something". We must address the _root_causes_ of this phenomenon rather than seizing upon an emotional, but dangerous, reaction. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Guns, Schools, and The Press.. -Forwarded Date: 26 May 1998 13:59:44 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id QAA17233; Mon, 25 May 1998 16:42:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma016683; Mon May 25 16:37:59 1998 Message-Id: <199805250400.VAA24513@ednet1.orednet.org> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: mnasstro@orednet.org Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list This is some of the reaction by the press wrt the tragedy in Springfield, Oregon last week. Note that not *all* of it is/was negative. I wrote a quick note to the editor of the American Reporter in response to his editorial, which was printed (and enclosed) as well. First, off the Associated Press wire: Springfield schools Superintendent Jamon Kent said guns were not a significant problem in the district, but a survey released this week reported that 2 percent of Oregon high school students said they had brought firearms onto school property in the past 30 days. Robert and Linda Ryker, whose sons Jacob and Josh were among those who subdued the suspect, cautioned against making guns the issue. Instead the Rykers, members of the National Rifle Association, said their boys' familiarity with weapons made them more willing to move in when they got the chance. "They are not afraid of them," Linda Ryker said. "I think that all of that did lead to the fact that my boys did not panic when they saw (the gun)." The Ryker boys and other students credited with prevented further bloodshed said they did not want to be thought of as heroes, [...] * * * Now, the American Reporter Editorial from Friday, May 22, 1998: The American Reporter Vol. 4, No. 815 - May 22, 1998 EDITORIAL "KILL THE CULPRIT" Joe Shea American Reporter Editor-in-Chief Hollywood, Calif. The culprit in the wave of high school violence sweeping the country -- and there were three shooting incidents in American high schools today, including the carnage in Springfield, Ore. -- is drinking up quarters by the thousands and creating more elementary and high school shooters as we read. Before we take guns from Americans, let's kill the culprit. The shootings have arced up ever since the introduction of a new generation of arcade games -- now available on desktops, of course -- that offer graphic depictions of exploding bloody human heads. Some are atop drug dealers, some atop vampires, some atop monsters, but in each case the reward for the child who pulls the trigger is an explosion of brains that is apparently the next best thing to masturbation --and at the psychiatric level, is probably a substitute. I remember thinking several years ago when I first saw the new graphics that we would soon seen a strong upsurge in shootings by children. Children mad at their girlfriends. Children mad at their teachers. Children mad at their classmates. Children mad at their parents. Mad children who grab guns and recreate the vicarious pleasure they get from video screens have opened fire on American schools. What are we going to do about it? An assault on the First Amendment rights of games creators to compete with the bloodiest of 'em need not be restricted. Someone just needs to take a hammer to those games. Kids spend hours watching those heads explode, night and day, in shopping malls, convenience stores, pizza joints and everywhere else a kid who has no parental supervision after school or at night -- even in his bedroom -- can find them. Is it so strange, when they become as mad and think as unrealistically as they do when their hormones start to rage -- that they do in real life what they spend so many hours doing in fantasy? Give up guns? When Congressmen and presidents take money from Chinese generals? Can anyone really imagine a disarmed American society when politicians steal us blind and sell our jobs out as we speak? When our next government may have Inc. after its name? Not on your life. Let's learn to live with them, as the Swiss and the Israelis have. But video machines? Go ahead, smash them to pieces. That will be more than a start. * * * ________________ THE A.R. MAILBOX + Mark C. Nasstrom American Reporter Subscriber Yachats, Ore. guns free THANKS FOR NOT BEING PREDICTABLE by Mark C. Nasstrom American Reporter Subscriber Great editorial, as usual! (AR, No. 814 "Kill The Culprit") I just quickly scanned other news sources and didn't see anything written elsewhere about tv and movies. Wasn't there a movie not too long ago where some kid (maybe it was an MTV Video) walked into his classroom, and hosed the teacher and his fellow classmates? Yesterday, I believe, there was a kid in Texas who shot his girlfriend (?) in the parking lot. I saw it on Reuters. Thanks for not coming out with the usual disarm-the-American-populace mantra pushed forth in the aftermath of carnage such as this, as the gun-grabbing politicians will. Society is crumbling around our ears when kids go into a school and shoot other kids. Now, watch the politicians attempt to make political hay out of this tragedy. And few will notice. Mark C. Nasstrom Yachats, Ore. via Internet -- # #03 Seaview # Illegitimi non Carborundum # ## The Lumberyard BBS ## # # Hardwired On The Edge of North America @ YACHATS 541.547.4605 OREGON # # ###### *^Oregon^Coast^Rural^Information^Service^Cooperative^* ###### # - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Form 4473 Firearm Registration -Forwarded Date: 26 May 1998 13:49:16 -0700 The PROponent Peoples Rights Organization 3953 Indianola Ave Columbus, OH 43214 (614) 268-0122 ____________________________________________________________ Volume 9 April, 1997 Number 4 ____________________________________________________________ GUN REGISTRATION PROCEEDING NICELY... A pro-gunner remarked some years ago that there was no use fighting against gun registration, because all the guns in America were already registered! It's just that the government hasn't collected all the forms yet! But now the government IS collecting your name and registering your guns. The mechanism is quite simple and straightforward. YOU have already registered every gun you have purchased from a "licensed" FFL dealer. You filled out a 4473 "yellow sheet" giving all the information any gun "registrar" would need to know (OK, except maybe a copy of your fingerprints). The law states that when an FFL dealer goes out of business, those gun "registration" forms get turned into the government. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms wants your name in a computer database so badly their teeth hurt! You want proof of this? OK. The construction of such a database is totally illegal and contrary to the expressed will of Congress. But the BATF simply illegally went ahead and started computerizing the gun owners anyway. When Congress complained, they told Congress to take a flying leap. But Congress much to their credit, did NOT take a leap. They cut the ATF funding for doing this dirty work. But the gun-grabbers were not deterred. They pulled in IOUs and as PRO members recall, recently got the funding for this illegal registration activity restored. Also the registration net was widened by encouraging local law enforcement to break the "law" by keeping "Brady" information. Cleverly, while the "Brady" law makes keeping a database a "crime" there is no punishment provided for the "crime"! To get around the no database directives of Congress, the justice Department has invented the "FIST" software designed for local law enforcement to legally generate databases which can be accessed INTERNET-style by the Feds. Thus, technically, "they" are not keeping the records. The ATF has admitted the "computerization" of the yellow sheets, but tried to pass it off as "indexing" rather than what they obviously have been trying to do from the beginning. And now with money restored, "indexing" of you and I can proceed apace. And there is obviously a plan to help provide the raw materials of the gun registration list. The plan is to drive as many FFL holders as possible out of business, because every former gun dealer is required to turn in his collection of gun registration forms, "yellow sheets," to the ATF. From there it is one small step into the gun owners list of names file. An editorial in the February 5, 1997 Columbus Dispatch gloats over this victory. They noted that the number of FFL holders has dropped 56 percent in the last three years. The Dispatch editors didn't say so, but we are sure they understand that this could mean the registration of up to half the guns sold legally in the United States. Needless to say, the editor-whores at the paper instead of pointing out that registration of honest gun owners does nothing about criminal misuse of guns, choose to equate honest businessmen with criminals. They say: "It's impossible to say so with any certainty that there's a connection, but common sense would suggest that perhaps there is. Of course President Clinton is claiming credit in a statement that says, 'Fly-by-night gun traffickers no longer have the cover of federal law to peddle their weapons.'" This kind of calculated disinformation makes me so angry. Common sense indeed! What common sense tells me is that there clearly is NOT ANY DEMONSTRATED CONNECTION between honest licensed gun sales and criminal behavior such as murder. The number of guns owned has not decreased even though the number of licensed dealers has. And no one has yet to definitively show a connection even between the number of guns and the murder rate let alone between gun dealers and the murder rate! The editors at the Dispatch tout a "common sense" two steps removed from real data. So my "common sense" tells me that only two possibilities exist: 1. The editors at the Columbus Dispatch are some of the most ignorant human beings on the planet. or 2. The Dispatch editors are very well trained propagandists who like any common prostitute have sold their skills along with their morality to gain a few pieces of gold. I know my opinion, you make your choice. So why is the Dispatch crowing that FFL fees being increased from $10 to $200 has caused record gun dealer declines? They note, "The number of gun dealers in California has dropped by 15,000 to 8,827, while in Texas there are 9,187 gun dealers, 11,000 fewer than in 1993." Could the REAL reason be it's those stacks and stacks of registration forms? That's thousands and thousands of names and addresses to be used "when the time comes" for ninja-clad "jackbooted thugs" to start kicking in our doors because "the laws have changed". Are newspaper editors lovers of big brother dictatorial rule? Maybe. But our "ignorance" option holds some water here too. We'll bet that these editors are beating the drum for the "benefits" of totalitarian rule, thinking that by reason of their lengthy "service" to the power elite, they are going to be part of the ruling class "when the day comes". Fat chance! These clowns are so dumb that they can't even figure out that they are only of some value so long as they are needed to dupe the public and spread lies and propaganda. But when the power elite truly takes control, you can be sure that these media people will be disposed of as easily and as ruthlessly as they will [try to] dispose of us gun owners. You see, not only do they now have a growing list of gun owners with names and addresses, but those seeking power no doubt already have a complete list of the names and addresses of all newspaper editors too! ____________________________________________________________ The PROponent is published by: Peoples Rights Organization; 3953 Indianola Ave.; Columbus, OH 43214; Tel (614) 268-0122 Fax (614) 261-9100 (note new fax number!) EMAIL: Compuserve ID: 2PRO INTERNET: 2PRO@compuserve.com or dcarney@bronze.coil.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: The BBC Poll -Forwarded Date: 26 May 1998 13:55:12 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id PAA17308; Tue, 26 May 1998 15:41:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma017053; Tue May 26 15:37:50 1998 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980526192447.008d3818@inet.skillnet.com> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: rlh@recon.org Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list My comments to: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/talking_point/newsid_100000/100102.asp Bans do not work in a free society. The US once tried to ban liquor, an attempt which led to death in the streets back in the first decades of this century. Or consider the attempt to ban drugs: They remain available on nearly any street corner despite billions in costs, "no-knock" assault entries by police, and the like. Shall we now repeat these "successes" with guns? Doing so will create an even larger black market and bolder criminals, while dividing the nation's citizens against each other. Now is a time for cohesiveness, not divisiveness, amongst the law-abiding. Guns and children have co-existed in the US since its founding. Only in the past few decades has the US started restricting guns, and only in the past few years have child-gun incidents been on the rise. The guns have always been there; the children have always been there. Blaming guns is a shortsighted excuse for "doing something". We must address the _root_causes_ of this phenomenon rather than seizing upon an emotional, but dangerous, reaction. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Re: [AR15-L] Re: Let Teachers CCW (fwd) -Forwarded Date: 26 May 1998 14:46:02 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id QAA17230; Mon, 25 May 1998 16:42:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma016673; Mon May 25 16:37:53 1998 Message-Id: <9805250357.0jza@xpresso.seaslug.org> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: noban@xpresso.seaslug.org Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list On May 25, Real Name: wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Hi, http://www.mclaughlin.com/ The Mclaughlin Group, PBS program . Go vote on whether China-Gate is Treason . Voting is running 60%-80% Treason, by age group . Spread this URL far, and wide . Stay Stronger, Ken. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Re: [AR15-L] Re: Let Teachers CCW (fwd) -Forwarded Date: 26 May 1998 14:50:28 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id QAA17230; Mon, 25 May 1998 16:42:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma016673; Mon May 25 16:37:53 1998 Message-Id: <9805250357.0jza@xpresso.seaslug.org> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: noban@xpresso.seaslug.org Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list On May 25, Real Name: wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Hi, http://www.mclaughlin.com/ The Mclaughlin Group, PBS program . Go vote on whether China-Gate is Treason . Voting is running 60%-80% Treason, by age group . Spread this URL far, and wide . Stay Stronger, Ken. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: The BBC Poll -Forwarded Date: 26 May 1998 13:55:12 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id PAA17308; Tue, 26 May 1998 15:41:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma017053; Tue May 26 15:37:50 1998 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980526192447.008d3818@inet.skillnet.com> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: rlh@recon.org Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list My comments to: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/talking_point/newsid_100000/100102.asp Bans do not work in a free society. The US once tried to ban liquor, an attempt which led to death in the streets back in the first decades of this century. Or consider the attempt to ban drugs: They remain available on nearly any street corner despite billions in costs, "no-knock" assault entries by police, and the like. Shall we now repeat these "successes" with guns? Doing so will create an even larger black market and bolder criminals, while dividing the nation's citizens against each other. Now is a time for cohesiveness, not divisiveness, amongst the law-abiding. Guns and children have co-existed in the US since its founding. Only in the past few decades has the US started restricting guns, and only in the past few years have child-gun incidents been on the rise. The guns have always been there; the children have always been there. Blaming guns is a shortsighted excuse for "doing something". We must address the _root_causes_ of this phenomenon rather than seizing upon an emotional, but dangerous, reaction. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: MEDIA BLACKOUT-"ROLLING THUNDER" -Forwarded Date: 26 May 1998 16:49:14 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------999EC38A14061B5DFA97F15A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Over half a million bikers shut down Constitution Avenue! Where was the MEDIA? Last Sunday (Memorial weekendd) approximately 750 thousand Viet Nam veterans rolled their motorcycles into Washington D. C. and essentially shut down Constitution Avenue. Bikers from all over the country assembled at the Pentagon parking lot early Sunday morning,. At noon, the parking lot was full with over 18 miles of highway closed down with remaining incoming motorcycles! Veterans from as far away as Alaska traveled to Washington so they could show respect and give support to the servicemen and women who fought and died half way around the world. "Rolling Thunder XI" was the largest gathering assembled so far to bring attention to the plight of all veterans, families, fallen brothers, POWs and MIAs. Artie Muller, National Chairman of Rolling Thunder stated emphatically : "This gathering of real Americans is designed to send a message to Washington that those that were willing to die for their country will never be forgotten or forsaken, we are only getting stronger!" Joyce Riley, Spokesperson for the American Gulf War Veterans Association was one of the invited speakers to address the plight of the Gulf War Veterans. Viet Nam and Gulf War veterans share a common grievance with the government because both were exposed to toxic agents and to this day have been denied any meaningful treatment or compensation."Where were the Senators? Congressman? Pentagon officials? Where were the military leaders and so-called Viet Nam War heros who claim to stand for their men? Where was the American Legion? The VFW? The Veteran's Administration? How could this many people be gathered for such a worthy cause and have the American media black this out all over the country?" The Gold Star Mothers consists of those who lost a son in Viet Nam. One of the mother's explained, " My son was buried on his 19th birthday." Another stated, "My son would have celebrated his 51st birthday tomorrow." Their appearance evoked an emotional response that cannot be described in words. All who attended agreed to return with at least one other person next year so that maybe one and a half million will be at "Rolling ThunderXII"!. We encourage everyone to contact CNN at (404) 827-1500 and ask them : "Why don't the men and women who were willing to die for their country deserve as much air time as J.J. the whale? Why didn't they tell about the 2200 men and women that are still left behind? Why don't they tell you 20,000 Gulf War veterans have died? America, at the wall this year the chant was: "WE DEMAND ACCOUNTIBILITY." That goes for the media also. God bless the POW/MIA's you are Not Forgotton, God save this Constitutional Republic! -- American Gulf War Veteran's Association 3506 Highway 6 South #117 Sugarland,Texas 77478-4401 1-800-231-7631 "There can be a million lies but there is only ONE Truth" http://www.gulfwarvets.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Ron Paul at it again: Action Item -Forwarded Date: 26 May 1998 08:19:09 -0700 Received: (qmail 22561 invoked by uid 516); 23 May 1998 01:46:06 -0000 Delivered-To: rkba-co@majordomo.pobox.com Received: (qmail 22515 invoked from network); 23 May 1998 01:45:58 -0000 Received: from snarf.avana.net (root@205.245.133.9) by majordomo.pobox.com with SMTP; 23 May 1998 01:45:58 -0000 Received: from avana.net (cougar.avana.net [205.245.133.5]) by snarf.avana.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA02949; Fri, 22 May 1998 21:45:55 -0400 Received: from nancys (atl1033.avana.net [207.42.63.68]) by avana.net (SM-98/Avana) with SMTP id VAA11043; Fri, 22 May 1998 21:46:54 -0400 Message-ID: <356629EC.7E49@avana.net> Organization: Mori Ante Cedere! X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 PRN@airgunhq.com, FIREARMS@LISTSERV.UTA.EDU, gsl@listbox.com, rkba-co@majordomo.pobox.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-rkba-co.new@majordomo.pobox.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rkba-co@majordomo.pobox.com Posted to rkba-co by Nancy ----------------------- Fire up the fax, email, phones and pens ....time for some action. Nancy ===========> Subject: > Paul-Bearer > Date: > Fri, 22 May 1998 17:00:46 -0700 > From: > Rick DeStephens > Reply-To: > Right to Keep and Bear Arms in Arizona > To: > AZRKBA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU > > > I was listening to the "BQ View" on 1280 this afternoon. Seems TX Rep, > Ron Paul has written some legislation saying that the SS number shall not > be used for any goofy ID and database crap except for that which is > directly involved with the social security stuff. > > He has but one (1) co-sponsor. > > I have already called our reps. Perhaps we can spread this out around > the country, Nancy? > > Rick For Help with Majordomo Commands, please send a message to: Majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com with the word Help in the body of the message - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: First, Atrocity, Then Gun Control Laws (Or Visa Versa???) Date: 26 May 1998 07:31:00 -0700 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- NOTE: We have all observed that immediately prior to the passage of major gun control legislation, at least one major firearm tragedy occurs -- or major tragedies involving the deaths of children -- which conveniently motivate passage of legislation which, under less hysterical conditions, might otherwise be weighed and considered more carefully (or at least considered Constitutionally) instead of being passed in typical Congressional knee-jerk fashion. For those of you who were wondering what legislation was critically pending that required some kind of series of tragic deaths in order to motivate the Congress and outrage the public into their herd mentality, here it is below: planned and on the agenda by May 6th, 1998. This proposed legislation was ready for introduction to Congress WELL BEFORE: 1. The Ocean City, Maryland suicide of a 12-year-old (suffocation) on 05/14/98 - ("Suicide Note Refers to `South Park'"); 2. The student shooting death at Lincoln County High School in Fayetteville, Tennessee on 05/19/98; 3. The Onalaska, Washington student suicide on school bus on 05/21/98 - ("In Washington, a school-bus kidnapping ends with a student's suicide"); 4. The Springfield, Oregon shooting of 05/22/98 - (articles too numerous to list individually); 5. The St. Charles, Missouri incident, also on 05/22/98 - ("Police say three sixth graders plotted to kill classmates"); 6. The San Bernardino, California student suicide at school also on 05/22/98 - ("Teen-ager shoots himself in head on high school campus"); and 7. The arrest of an Elmira, New York postal worker who was threatening to bring a rocket launcher to work - also on 05/22/98 - ("Worker Charged Over Rocket Launcher") ALL of these news articles were posted in their entirety on the Ignition-Point list at the time they occurred. You listees should be observing these trends and connecting the dots. If anyone needs reposts of any of these aritcles, send me a note and I'll gladly forward them to you. Here is the pending gun control legislation, announced in a press conference on May 6th, 1998: Source: http://www.handguncontrol.org/press/may22-98.htm REPRESENTATIVE MCCARTHY TO INTRODUCE COMPREHENSIVE LEGISLATION TO KEEP FIREARMS OUT OF THE HANDS OF CHILDREN At a press conference on Wednesday, May 6, 1998, Sarah Brady and Representative Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY-4) were joined by four mothers who have lost a child to gun violence. At that time, Representative McCarthy announced that she will be introducing, in the next few weeks, a comprehensive piece of legislation that will address all areas of concern about children's access to firearms. The Children's Gun Violence Prevention Act of 1998 will: Offer a comprehensive approach to the issue of children and guns, emphasizing responsibility, safety and education; Strengthen the law prohibiting children from having access to handguns; Impose criminal penalties upon adults who fail to keep loaded firearms out of the reach of children; Require manufacturers to make safer, more child-resistant guns; Provide federal support for development of educational materials and gun violence prevention curriculum for children; and Help identify and prosecute those who are selling guns to our children. This legislation will be introduced in mid-June. Please call your Representative and demand that he/she co-sponsor this important legislation. ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. ----------------------- ********************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email@address ********************************************** www.telepath.com/believer ********************************************** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Prozac Implicated in Oregon School Shooting Date: 26 May 1998 07:31:00 -0700 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Prozac Implicated in Oregon School Shooting by MAUREEN SIELAFF Maureen@Vigo-Examiner.com The Vigo Examiner SPRINGFIELD, OREGON - Before going on a wild shooting spree at his Springfield Oregon high school that left 2 dead and 22 injured, Kip Kinkel had been attending anger control classes and was taking a prescription drug called Prozac. This particular drug has factored in almost all wild shooting sprees which have taken place in the last ten years. Eli Lilly of Indianapolis, Indiana was recently sued over the homicidal tendencies this drug is alleged to induce in patients. Prozac is commonly given to youth as a treatment for depression. In the book "Prozac and other Psychiatric Drugs," by Lewis A. Opler, M.D., Ph.D., the following side effects are listed for Prozac: apathy; hallucinations; hostility; irrational ideas; and paranoid reactions, antisocial behavior; hysteria; and suicidal thoughts. The following information is taken from form PV 2472 DPP, prepared by Dista Products Company, a division of Eli Lilly and Company of Indianapolis, Indiana. It was last revised on June 12, 1997, and can be found in each package of Prozac. Anxiety and Insomnia: In clinical trials for the depressed, held in the U.S., 12% to 16% of those tested reported increased anxiety, nervousness, or insomnia. In similar trials for those diagnosed with obsessive-compulsive disorders insomnia was reported in 28% of the patients, and anxiety was reported in 14%. Altered Appetite and Weight: In controlled U.S. clinics 11% of patients treated with Prozac reported an anorexic appetite. However, only rarely have patients discontinued treatment with Prozac because of this symptom. Those diagnosed with OCD, again, came in at a higher rate of 17%. Other symptoms: (considered to be frequent by Dista) chills, hemorrhage and hypertension of the cardiovascular system, nausea and vomiting, agitation, amnesia, confusion, emotional liability, sleep disorder, ear pain, taste perversion, and tininitus. The outcome classification (%) on the Clinical Global Impression improvement scale based on two studies showed that of those who took 40mg of Prozac 0% were reported to be no worse, 33% showed no change, 28% were minimally improved, 27% much improved, and 12% very much improved. Meaning that of those tested only 39% showed any reasonable improvement from taking this drug. Though many are demanding stricter gun control laws as a solution to this sudden increase in homicidal shootings, these events do not appear to correlate to a sudden increase in firearm ownership. But when the percentage of these killers that are on Prozac is compared to the percentage of the general public on Prozac, a very disturbing pattern emerges. Though Prozac does indeed help many people suffering from depression, it appears that it does indeed also drive many into homicidal rages. When Kip Kinkel's home was investigated several bombs that he had constructed were discovered. With a ban on bombs already in place, he nevertheless managed to have several in his possession that he might well have taken to school instead of guns. So the question arises, if guns had been banned like bombs, would the danger have been averted? The unmistakable answer is that it would not. And with the shootings correlating far more closely with the psychiatric drug Prozac, why is the public put in such great danger by its widespread use, while efforts are directed instead toward something that shows no correlation? On Tuesday, May 19th, Kip Kinkel's father took away his rifle, after finding that Kip was taking the gun out of the house on unsupervised ventures into the woods. The next day, Wednesday, May 20th, 15 year old Kip Kinkel showed up at Thurston High School with a dangerous attitude and a newly purchased stolen gun that he had gotten from another student. A security guard caught wind of the arrangement and the two boys were arrested, booked, and then released to their parents. On Thursday, May 21st, Kip Kinkel walked out of his home after shooting his parents with the rifle his dad had taken away from him and proceeded to the high school. He walked into the cafeteria and fired off 51 rounds of ammunition which resulted in the deaths of two of the students and injuries of various degrees to 22 other students ages 14 through 18. The onslaught ended when one of the wounded students, a 17 year old wrestler, tackled Kip, and other students piled on top of Kip to help restrain him. Those who have known Kip Kinkel present very differing portrayals of his life and his demeanor on an everyday basis. Gun control advocates are outraged that "a gun" has again taken the lives of innocent citizens. Others are saying that Kip Kinkel is just an average kid who went about on a daily basis doing stunts that average kids do. Still other's paint a depressing picture of a child and a family in crisis and at the end of their ropes, and of a young boy who for years had displayed his unhappiness, albeit apparently reasonless, by doing acts which should have been considered highly questionable and certainly not normal. A close family friend told reporters that Bill Kinkel had begun confiding in him about four years ago about severe behavioral problems with his son. The friend stated that the boy's parent sought counseling and attempted to maintain a very structured home life. "As parents, they just kept trying." The day before the shooting spree Mr. Kinkel contacted the Oregon National Guard to inquire about having his son enrolled in the Guard's Youth Challenge Program. An official with the Guard stated that Mr. Kinkel seemed at the end of his rope, and that he wanted to get his son "mainstreamed back into school." The Guard YCP takes in children who "are on the razor's edge, ready to fall on the dark side." Obviously Kip Kinkel was already over the edge. His attitude regarding life and his subsequent behavior was irrationally ignored by not only his closest friends but also the teachers, the school nurse, school management, and police officials. Most had the attitude that he was just a kid, that no one needed to be concerned. But how could this be? All were well aware of the boys bizarre behavioral patterns. Although they might say what a nice kid they thought he was, most can follow up with one story or another of comments and actions that definitely describe a boy that is anything but "average". Apparently it is easier to drug our youth, to fill their bodies with drugs that many times have worse side effects on their minds and spirits than the problems they have. You name the attitude and there is a drug to supposedly help or cure it. It may be time to take the War On Drugs to where it can really be effective; getting these society cop-out drugs out of our children's lives. It may be time we rise and help our children through productive activities and quit drugging them senseless. http://www.Vigo-Examiner.com Enjoy a free 90 day trial subscription to The Vigo Examiner. You will recieve one to three of our top stories or editorials each day. Send your subscription request, and all other communication to Editor@Vigo-Examiner.com. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Trib article on hospitals and guns Date: 26 May 1998 21:58:26 -0600 As some of you may have noticed, the SL Tribune published an article on hospitals and gun bans on Saturday. I was quoted in this article - or to be more precise, misquoted. I did not tell Ms. Fahys, nor is it true, that I was raped while going to or from work at a hospital in Los Angeles. What is true is that a nurse who parked in the same parking lot I did _was_ raped, and that my shift at work frequently began or ended between 2 and 3 AM, when there was no security. Also, the person who shot two emergency physicians and took another (female) physician and a patient as hostages did not do so in a "waiting room". He did it in an emergency room full of seriously and/or critically ill people. I have written to Ms. Fahys and requested that the Tribune print a correction. In the meantime, I thought I'd set the record straight. Sarah Thompson - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Trib article on hospitals and guns Date: 26 May 1998 21:58:26 -0600 As some of you may have noticed, the SL Tribune published an article on hospitals and gun bans on Saturday. I was quoted in this article - or to be more precise, misquoted. I did not tell Ms. Fahys, nor is it true, that I was raped while going to or from work at a hospital in Los Angeles. What is true is that a nurse who parked in the same parking lot I did _was_ raped, and that my shift at work frequently began or ended between 2 and 3 AM, when there was no security. Also, the person who shot two emergency physicians and took another (female) physician and a patient as hostages did not do so in a "waiting room". He did it in an emergency room full of seriously and/or critically ill people. I have written to Ms. Fahys and requested that the Tribune print a correction. In the meantime, I thought I'd set the record straight. Sarah Thompson - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: More on Here it Comes Date: 26 May 1998 18:24:00 -0700 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Fwd from June. Thanks! >>If I was just a little bit more paranoid, I'd be >>forced to suspect that kids are being hypnotically >>programmed to perform these acts as a prelude to >>a total gun ban. >>What perfect circumstances to demand a gun ban. It's funny, but I was thinking something very much along those lines as I watched my local 'news' this morning...seems there was a 'hostage situation' at a local KFC last nite....lots of footage of SWAT cops crouching, ready to storm in...but it all looked suspiciously staged... And the 'hostage situation' turned out to be this: some guy came in to the KFC at closing time wielding a gun, demanding money...the manager 'bravely' bats him with a broom handle, and then she and the two employees still at work lock themselves in a storage room, from where they call the police...so it was never a case of the intruder actually holding these people...after a COUPLE OF HOURS of the SWAT team taking over the neighborhood, banning patrons of other restaurants and a bowling alley from leaving (thereby conveniently eliminating eyewitnesses), after a police dog failed in its attempt to jump over the counter in the front of the KFC (one suspects Fido had one too many helpings of the Colonel's Special Recipe...), our brave boys in black were forced to actually go in themselves to find....nothing...except 3 KFC employees locked in a storage room... Seems the gun-wielding intruder had just turned around and walked out the door after the 3 employees locked themselves into the store room.... The whole 'story' seemed strangely benign...tho wielding a gun, the guy allows himself to be batted with a broomstick, allows the 3 KFC personnel to lock themselves in the store room, and then apparantly turned around and walked out without taking anything... As I said, the whole thing had an aura of a staged event...especially since the news cameras just happened to be there to get closeup shots of the SWAT team a la "Cops"... And as I watched it this morning, I was thinking "Was this staged to give a pretense to 'something should be done about all these guns' arguments?" BTW, the 'news' was all aglow with praise for the 'good job' the police did, conveniently glossing over the fact the perp got away, and the cops don't have a clue to who/where he is...supposedly... June ;-) *------------------------------------------------------------------------* A smile is a curved line that sets things straight. *------------------------------------------------------------------------* /\ .\/ .' Q .' |-+' / \ --ahjt Go fly a kite! It's fun. *========================================================================* revcoal AT connix DOT com *========================================================================* It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227. I assess a fee of $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such unsolicited commercial email. Sending such email to this address denotes acceptance of these terms. My posting messages to Usenet neither grants consent to receive unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email. *========================================================================* X-NO-ARCHIVE: YES - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: 1st Gun Confiscation ! - With No Crime Committed Date: 26 May 1998 18:24:00 -0700 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- 15-year-old charged, father's guns seized after teacher threatened Associated Press, 05/26/98 11:20 LITTLE EGG HARBOR TOWNSHIP, N.J. (AP) - Skittish after a wave of school shootings, police arrested a 15-year-old boy and seized more than 20 guns legally owned by his father after the boy showed a teacher a drawing of someone being shot. The Pinelands Regional High School sophomore was charged with making terroristic threats against the 35-year-old teacher Friday. Fearful that the boy had access to them, police seized the weapons - including two AK-47s - and more than 100 rounds of ammunition as a precaution. The father had the appropriate ownership documents for the weapons and was not charged, police said. ``There has to be a concern in the wake of everything going on around the country,'' said police Detective Robert F. Knapp, referring to last week's schools shooting in Springfield, Ore., and others that preceded it. Neither the boy's name nor the teacher's name were released. The teacher told police the boy showed her ``a handwritten drawing of a person being killed at gunpoint,'' according to police reports. While in class, the boy had showed his teacher the drawing and asked what she thought of it. The drawing depicted a male victim in the crosshairs of a rifle scope saying ``Help.'' Another figure in the drawing said ``You're dead.'' The boy had behavior problems in school and ``past incidents of aggressive behavior,'' Knapp said. In addition, the boy had written a fairy tale in his English class that included a graphic murder, said Tish Steward, a math teacher at the school who is president of the Pinelands Teachers' Association. ``To tell you the truth, I'd be very disturbed,'' said Steward. ``It was very frightening to this particular person.'' The boy, who was released to his parents, was scheduled to appear Tuesday in Ocean County Family Court. -- http://www.boston.com/dailynews/wirehtml/146/15_year_old_charged__father_s_guns_.htm - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Thompson" Subject: More offensive cartoons.... Date: 27 May 1998 00:58:36 -0600 Check out http://www.salonmagazine.com/comics/ If you're not reading this Wednesday, go to the Wednesday "cartoonist", Keith Knight. Comments may be sent to salon@salonmagazine.com Sarah Sarah Thompson, M.D. http://www.therighter.com GO JAZZ!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: For Sale -Forwarded Date: 27 May 1998 12:54:28 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id LAA01694; Wed, 27 May 1998 11:31:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma001290; Wed May 27 11:28:21 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: KGrubb@carnival.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list [If anyone is looking for a real gem, I came across this ad.] --Ken 1776 Constitution for sale. Inherited from original owner. Hasn't been used for years, but can be easily restored to its original condition by extermination of the rats which have taken up residence under the hood and the removal of useless accessories which were added by a long series of unethical mechanics who saw the prospect of making more money if it continually drifted to the right or the left than if the integrity of its original design was retained. Truly must be seen to be appreciated. Must be appreciated to be truly seen. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Tom Lantos & 2,000 Ak47's -Forwarded Date: 27 May 1998 13:02:00 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id LAA01696; Wed, 27 May 1998 11:31:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma001303; Wed May 27 11:28:26 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: pwatson@utdallas.edu Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Topic: White Water The Secret Scandal -- Tom Lantos Beneficiary of Chinese Arms Smuggling Ring Washington Weekly 5/10/98 The Secret Scandal Tom Lantos Beneficiary of Chinese Arms Smuggling Ring Going back to 1985, Linda and Victor Huang have repeatedly donated money to the political campaigns of California Congressman Tom Lantos and his New Hampshire son-in-law Dick Swett. In 1996, Linda Huang was arrested in a plot to smuggle 2,000 Chinese AK-47s into the United States in violation of the federal ban on assault weapons. Arrested together with Linda Huang were seven Chinese-American residents of the Bay Area of California. Federal prosecutors in San Francisco also sought the help of China to prosecute seven high-ranking Chinese officials in the arms smuggling plot. The Chinese officials were all part of the state-run Norinco and Poly Technologies arms companies, implicated by U.S. intelligence in the export of missiles to Pakistan and Iran.=20 Before the arrests, the head of Poly Technologies, Wang Jun, met in the White House with President Bill Clinton. Instrumental in arranging the meeting was one Charlie Trie.=20 The participation of Linda Huang in a drug smuggling ring sponsored by the People's Republic of China caused an uproar in the Chinese dissident community in California. It turns out that the Huangs have hosted leading dissidents for extended periods of time. It is now suspected that they did so on behalf of Chinese intelligence in order to infiltrate and spy on the Chinese dissident movement in the U.S.=20 This brings us back to Tom Lantos. On the House Government Oversight and Reform Committee he has been instrumental in blocking the investigation into illegal Chinese donations to the Democratic National Committee and to the White House. He has done so by (1) preventing the immunization of witnesses with knowledge of illegal money transfers, (2) by attempting to discredit veteran FBI agent Jack Wickman who retired rather than comply with an unprecedented DOJ demand that he name a secret China source on illegal donations, and (3) by viciously attacking Chairman Dan Burton and witnesses appearing before the Committee.=20 The White House has now shown its gratitude by appointing Lantos' son-in-law Dick Swett to ambassador of Denmark. The heavy baggage carried by Swett, however, means that Senate confirmation is far from assured. In fact, it seems unlikely. First, some Senators find him unqualified for the job. Second, during his 1996 bid for the U.S. Senate, Dick Swett violated campaign finance laws. He refused to pay the fine. Not until last week, when his Senate confirmation appeared in trouble, did he pay the $65,000 fine for his violation.=20 The mainstream media is obsessed with Dan Burton's "scumbag" remark and his release of edited tapes of Webster Hubbell's prison conversations. This may be grounds for his removal, the free press claims. Yet donations to a member of his committee who defends the indefensible and assails the unassailable from a Chinese arms smuggling ring appears to have slipped through the cracks among our fine investigative press. Could that be because Tom Lantos is a Democrat?=20 [An Internet sleuth, who wishes to remain anonymous, contributed to this report] Published in the May 11, 1998 issue of The Washington Weekly. Copyright = =A9 1998 The Washington Weekly (http://www.federal.com). Reposting permitted with this message intact.=20 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Get an early start on summer vacation! -Forwarded Date: 27 May 1998 13:04:52 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id OAA19122; Wed, 27 May 1998 14:49:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma018834; Wed May 27 14:46:02 1998 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980527182956.008d37c8@inet.skillnet.com> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: rlh@recon.org Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list This is an attitude thing. Even if we passed a law banning all guns, could you _really_ ignore such threats? Even with all the metal detectors and security at airports, they can't ignore a gun or bomb threat. Face it - if someone wants to get a gun or a bomb somewhere, the possibility exists. The threat is real. So how do we react to every threat, every idle rumor, every back-alley whisper? By disarming the _honest_ people? By making the _law-abiding_ people more helpless? By tipping the scales even MORE in favor of the criminals? That just doesn't make sense. That's like answering an outbreak of plague by giving everyone the flu to weaken their immune systems. Far better to have healthy people able to defend against the disease. Some are proposing to allow school faculty to carry concealed at school. We should go one step farther: It ought to be a job requirement for every faculty member to be trained and carry every day. No one is going to attack a school if they know that several dozen faculty members are prepared to stop them. The school violence would end immediately, and the schools could refocus on education. RLH ----- KANSAS CITY, Mo. (Reuters) - Classes in the small, rural community of McLouth, Kan., were canceled Wednesday after officials shut down the town's only school following threats by a middle school student to bring a gun to class. Officials said concerns surfaced Sunday night when a school board member heard a rumor that was circulating through the town of 900 residents north of Lawrence, Kan., that one of the students planned to bring a gun to class. The student, a male, reportedly had a fight with another boy in school three weeks ago. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Re: Get an early start on summer vacation! -Forwarded Date: 27 May 1998 14:12:52 -0600 At 01:04 PM 5/27/98 -0700, you wrote: >This is an attitude thing. Even if we passed a law banning all guns, could >you _really_ ignore such threats? Even with all the metal detectors and >security at airports, they can't ignore a gun or bomb threat. Face it - if >someone wants to get a gun or a bomb somewhere, the possibility exists. The >threat is real. So how do we react to every threat, every idle rumor, every >back-alley whisper? By disarming the _honest_ people? By making the >_law-abiding_ people more helpless? By tipping the scales even MORE in favor >of the criminals? That just doesn't make sense. That's like answering an >outbreak of plague by giving everyone the flu to weaken their immune >systems. Far better to have healthy people able to defend against the disease. Well up to here, we agree.... >Some are proposing to allow school faculty to carry concealed at school. We >should go one step farther: It ought to be a job requirement for every >faculty member to be trained and carry every day. No one is going to attack >a school if they know that several dozen faculty members are prepared to >stop them. The school violence would end immediately, and the schools could >refocus on education. Yes, school faculty members should be allowed to, or even encouraged to, carry concealed. But _required_? That's absolute idiocy, not to mention a violation of civil liberties. Just as people have the right to bear arms, they also have the right to choose not to. That's what living in a free society is about. Besides, how would you enforce it? What standards of proficiency would you require? Who would pay for the firearms, ammo and training? Who would bear the liability should a teacher, acting in good faith during a crisis, shoot a student or other faculty member? My kids already miss far too many days of school because their teachers are attending seminars, having "career enhancement days", "preparation days", "morale-building" days, and any other excuse they can come up with to not teach. I don't want the kids to lose another day a week so the teachers can go practice at the range. And teachers are not perfect. Some of them probably would not even meet the requirements for CCW. I'd rather have teachers who are at least proficient in English, math, history and science, in addition to whatever their area of "expertise" is. If they're proficient with firearms, so much the better, but I'm not willing to require, or pay for, teachers to carry firearms. > > KANSAS CITY, Mo. (Reuters) - Classes in the small, rural community of >McLouth, Kan., were canceled Wednesday after officials shut down the town's >only school following threats by a middle school student to bring a gun to >class. > Officials said concerns surfaced Sunday night when a school board >member heard a rumor that was circulating through the town of 900 residents >north of Lawrence, Kan., that one of the students planned to bring a gun to >class. The student, a male, reportedly had a fight with another boy in >school three weeks ago. More socialist idiocy. It's a basic principle of American law that you punish only the _guilty_. If a kid threatens violence, you can arrest him, suspend him, search him, or ban him from the premises. But you don't punish everyone else at the school. And you don't punish his parents by confiscating all of their firearms either. The only light I can see coming out of this whole mess is that parents may finally wake up and figure out that the NEA/UEA are creating schools that are so dangerous to everyone, and so ineffective at teaching, that they ought to be just abolished. (Private schools, of course, _could_ require CCW as a condition of employment, although doing so would still raise a host of difficult issues to resolve.) Sarah Sarah Thompson, M.D. http://www.therighter.com GO JAZZ!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: FEAR: Justices to rule on whether officers must tell how to Date: 27 May 1998 15:59:53 -0700 --------------E2F1A6643DB4F336CBF50BFA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A recent (5/5/1998) article in the Los Angeles Times, titled "High Court to Hear Property Seizure Case; Law: Justices to rule on whether officers must tell innocent homeowners how to get their valuables back. Issue stems from a botched West Covina raid", says that the Supreme Court has agreed to hear a case that grew out of a faulty police raid in West Covina. The article says in part, "The case, to be heard in the fall, renews the dispute between the U.S. appeals court in California and the high court over the scope of constitutional rights. Last year, the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that the city of West Covina violated the constitutional rights of a local couple when it failed to clearly tell them how they could recover $2,469 in cash taken from their home. The case began in May 1993, when Lawrence and Clara Perkins returned home to find their doors damaged, their belongings in disarray and their cash savings missing from a locked closet. They also found a notice, which included the name and phone number of a detective, saying that their house had been searched by West Covina police under a warrant issued by a municipal judge." (The cops were looking for information on a fellow that used to rent from the Perkins.) Perkins tried to get information at the court house on how to get his property back but instead got a big run-around. For example, he was told that he needed the search warrant number but they couldn't give him that because the "warrant was sealed". The city attorney said he just didn't try hard enough; "It's easy to do. There is an adequate remedy, and he didn't follow it," said Priscilla F. Slocum, a Pasadena lawyer who represented the city. "This is a case of a person who halfheartedly tried to get his money back, made one more try and then gave up." Well, there you go -- all you people whining about the governement stealing your property and not giving it back, it is your fault. You are just not trying hard enough to get it back! We must wait to see if the Supreme Court agrees with that infallible logic. [Posted by Leon Felkins on May 27, 1998] -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Forfeiture:" http://www.magnolia.net/~leonf/politics/forfeit.html -- Email: leonf@pissedoff.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "[T]o live outside the law, you must be honest," -- Bob Dylan - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: Re: Get an early start on summer vacation! -Forwarded Date: 27 May 1998 16:49:44 -0600 On Wed, 27 May 1998, "S. Thompson" posted: > Yes, school faculty members should be allowed to, or even encouraged to, >carry concealed. But _required_? >That's absolute idiocy, not to mention a violation of civil liberties. Not at all. There are any number of requirements imposed with teaching in a government run school--or any other job. We require (supposedly) teachers to be proficent in any number of things not directly part of their job. EG, math and science teachers must be proficient in written and spoken english. Before you say that is obvious and clearly necessary to their job, go take a math or science course at a major university which does not impose this requirement. You can learn math or science from someone who is far from proficient in english. It's tough, but it can be done. More closely related to requiring CCW are requirements that teachers be trained in first aid including CPR. Teachers, especially grade school teachers, are more than just instructors. They are given, and accept, a high degree of responsibility for their students safety during the day. Requiring a knowledge of first aid is only prudent. A similar argument may be made for carrying guns. > Besides, how would you enforce it? Just as any other requirement is enforced. Testing and certification. >What standards of proficiency would >you require? Somewhere between a current CCW and POST certification I should think. >Who would pay for the firearms, ammo and training? The cost of all are insignificant compared to the cost of the college education already required to teach. The cost of that education (and much of the continuing education required) is born by teachers already, although schools could help cover those costs if they chose. >Who would >bear the liability should a teacher, acting in good faith during a crisis, >shoot a student or other faculty member? The same entity that bears the liability if a teacher, acting in good faith during a crisis, should inflict injury administering first aid. >My kids already miss far too many >days of school because their teachers are attending seminars, having >"career enhancement days", "preparation days", "morale-building" days, and >any other excuse they can come up with to not teach. I don't want the kids >to lose another day a week so the teachers can go practice at the range. Even cops are not required to practice shooting on a weekly basis. If you can pass the annual competancy tests in shooting without practice, so be it. If you have to practice every night, that is your problem. > And teachers are not perfect. Some of them probably would not even meet >the requirements for CCW. There are doubtless people who would like to teach who do not meet the requirments for English, history, etc. There are people who would love to be doctors but can't pass required exams to get into or graduate medical school or maybe even pass the boards once they graduate. If you don't meet the requirements for a given profession, trade, or occupation you better find a different one. IF we decide that government school teachers must be proficient in basic self defense using a gun in order to be entrusted with our children for 8 hours a day, then it is their responsibility to do so. I personnaly wouldn't require it just because there are so many teachers who are good teachers who would likely have trouble with it. But I would allow and even encourage via financial incentive, teachers to become proficient and CCW. > The only light I can see coming out of this whole mess is that parents may >finally wake up and figure out that the NEA/UEA are creating schools that >are so dangerous to everyone, and so ineffective at teaching, that they >ought to be just abolished. Amen. -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it." -- Thomas Paine - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Re: Get an early start on summer vacation! -Forwarded Date: 27 May 1998 20:27:11 -0600 At 04:49 PM 5/27/98 -0600, Charles Hardy wrote: > >On Wed, 27 May 1998, "S. Thompson" posted: > >> Yes, school faculty members should be allowed to, or even encouraged to, >>carry concealed. But _required_? >>That's absolute idiocy, not to mention a violation of civil liberties. > >Not at all. There are any number of requirements imposed with >teaching in a government run school--or any other job. We require >(supposedly) teachers to be proficent in any number of things not >directly part of their job. EG, math and science teachers must be >proficient in written and spoken english. Before you say that is >obvious and clearly necessary to their job, go take a math or science >course at a major university which does not impose this requirement. >You can learn math or science from someone who is far from proficient >in english. It's tough, but it can be done. The schools have failed utterly in providing teachers who are even proficient in English at a low high school level, much less any "esoteric" knowledge, such as math, science, history, or arts. That needs to be the first goal. If public school teachers were as proficient with firearms as they are at writing sentences in English, I'd be terrified to live near a school, much less send my child to one! While it may be theoretically possible to train teachers to use firearms, I seriously doubt that it's actually possible, at least in our current society. Secondly, requiring proficiency in teaching skills and knowledge is a reasonable requirement that violates no one's civil liberties. However, I can find no definition of teacher that includes the duties of armed guard. It is, of course, possible to change the definition and requirements for teachers, but such a change can't be done abruptly. Also, as self-defense advocates we must be careful to be consistent. Many people here have raised the issue of bans on knives being an infringement of the religious rights of Sikhs, who are required to carry a specific type of knife. If we are going to insist that the rights of Sikhs be respected, should we not be equally vigilant to defend the rights of Quakers and Buddhists whose religious beliefs generally preclude carrying firearms? If someone is a good teacher, I can see no reason to prevent him from teaching whether he's a Sikh who wishes to carry a knife to school or a Quaker who refuses to carry a firearm. And what do we do about teachers who have physical handicaps that prevent them from handling a firearm safely? Should a teacher who has an episode of serious depression that requires involuntary hospitalization lose her job forever, even if she's successfully treated? I don't like _ex post facto_ laws applied to gun owners and they're not any better when applied to teachers. >More closely related to requiring CCW are requirements that teachers >be trained in first aid including CPR. Teachers, especially grade >school teachers, are more than just instructors. They are given, and >accept, a high degree of responsibility for their students safety >during the day. Requiring a knowledge of first aid is only prudent. A >similar argument may be made for carrying guns. I don't know of any rational reason for refusing to learn CPR for kids, although I suspect that some teachers are probably exempt from this requirement also, due to physical problems that prevent their performing CPR. (I know some health care professionals get such exemptions.) But many, if not most, teachers sincerely believe that possession of a firearm is morally unacceptable. And for some teachers, particularly those who work with emotionally disturbed, or "at-risk" youth, carrying a firearm and having all the students _know_ you carry it, could present a very real danger of students ganging up on a teacher to get the gun. Those people who chose a career in teaching in good faith, should not suddenly be told they must carry a firearm at all times or lose their jobs. If they'd wanted to carry a gun at work all day every day, they'd probably have chosen a career in law enforcement. Again, we must be consistent. If we object to military and law enforcement officers losing their jobs because of _ex post facto_ laws, we shouldn't be rushing to inflict such laws on teachers. >> Besides, how would you enforce it? > >Just as any other requirement is enforced. Testing and certification. And "showing metal" at the door every day before you're allowed in to teach? >>What standards of proficiency would >>you require? > >Somewhere between a current CCW and POST certification I should think. I think it should be more stringent than POST. Most law enforcement personnel shoot at adults who are at least presumed to be criminals. A teacher defending a class would most likely have to shoot _at a student_ in a school full of kids. Even if the student is a criminal, I think higher standards should be used when shooting a 15 year old than when shooting at an adult. In fact, I suspect that most of the gunowners I know would have great difficulty shooting a teenager, even with good cause. I know I would. >>Who would pay for the firearms, ammo and training? > >The cost of all are insignificant compared to the cost of the college >education already required to teach. The cost of that education (and >much of the continuing education required) is born by teachers >already, although schools could help cover those costs if they chose. That makes sense if you're looking at requiring firearms proficiency as a requirement for a teaching degree. But it doesn't work as well if you're going to impose it as a new requirement. And do you let teachers carry any firearm they choose, or do you standardize it like the police do? If you model it on the police, then I think the taxpayers pay for guns and ammo, which for each teacher is a considerable expense, especially when you consider Utah's already abysmally low funding of schools. >>Who would >>bear the liability should a teacher, acting in good faith during a crisis, >>shoot a student or other faculty member? > >The same entity that bears the liability if a teacher, acting in good >faith during a crisis, should inflict injury administering first aid. To the best of my knowledge, the schools and their employees are exempt from all liability related to job duties. It appears that law enforcement now has a license to kill. Do we really want to give teachers that same license to kill? Especially considering how frustrating and thankless their jobs already are? Do we want teachers shooting kids because they see a glint of metal from car keys, or even from a "Three Musketeers" bar - knowing they're exempt from all liability? >>My kids already miss far too many >>days of school because their teachers are attending seminars, having >>"career enhancement days", "preparation days", "morale-building" days, and >>any other excuse they can come up with to not teach. I don't want the kids >>to lose another day a week so the teachers can go practice at the range. > >Even cops are not required to practice shooting on a weekly basis. If >you can pass the annual competancy tests in shooting without practice, >so be it. If you have to practice every night, that is your problem. And we both know how poorly police perform "in the field" compared with "civilian" gun owners. I don't think that level of competence is acceptable in a school setting. And if the UEA thinks that their teachers are far too overworked to "allow" someone else to teach an Eddie Eagle class, imagine the fuss if we actually required firearms proficiency! >> And teachers are not perfect. Some of them probably would not even meet >>the requirements for CCW. > >There are doubtless people who would like to teach who do not meet the >requirments for English, history, etc. There are people who would >love to be doctors but can't pass required exams to get into or >graduate medical school or maybe even pass the boards once they >graduate. If you don't meet the requirements for a given profession, >trade, or occupation you better find a different one. Personally, I think anyone who wants to "practice medicine" should be free to do so, and licensing requirements should be abolished as the restraint of trade that they are. If I need a board-certified surgeon, I'll find one, without the help of the state. If I'd rather be treated by a practitioner of "Therapeutic Touch", I have that right. If I choose to have a chicken waved over my head, that's also my right. But that's slightly off topic. The teachers currently teaching _do_ meet the requirements for teaching, or at least we're told they do. What you're suggesting is roughly equivalent to declaring that all doctors who don't get a certificate in computer systems administration will lose their licenses. After all, all medical records and insurance claims are now computerized, and protecting medical records is important, so doctors "need" to have these skills. But I know quite a few excellent docs who are minimally proficient with computers. As a society, we simply can't afford to lose large numbers of skilled teachers, doctors, law enforcement officers, etc. simply because we decide to change the rules in midstream. >IF we decide that government school teachers must be proficient in >basic self defense using a gun in order to be entrusted with our >children for 8 hours a day, then it is their responsibility to do so. What if they all just say "no"? Tyranny is tyranny. I would refuse to work or even volunteer at a school because they require background checks and fingerprinting. I consider requiring a CCW (with the requisite background checks and fingerprinting) just as tyrannical. The same goes for drug screening, or any other invasion of privacy. Advocating tyranny "for the children" is just candy-coating the tyranny, and it doesn't change anything. Advocates of freedom and Constitutional rights should not be advocating infringing the rights of others. As much as I dislike Lily Eskelson, I'm obligated to defend _her_ Constitutional rights as ardently as I defend my own. >I personnaly wouldn't require it just because there are so many >teachers who are good teachers who would likely have trouble with it. >But I would allow and even encourage via financial incentive, teachers >to become proficient and CCW. I agree. We'd lose too many good teachers by requiring it. But I have no problem with encouraging teachers to carry, and/or rewarding those who do. (I suspect we're in far more agreement on this issue than it might appear...) I think ultimately we need to change society so that carrying a firearm, openly or concealed, is a normal, everyday, and unremarkable activity, and almost all citizens know how to handle and use a firearm safely, just as most people today know how to drive (and even small children know either to stay out of the street or how to cross streets safely). In a society where most adults were proficient with firearms, it would be much easier to get a "critical mass" of teachers who carried - although I'd still oppose any absolute requirement. But we don't have that society today, and we're not going to create it overnight. It's a worthy goal for people in all walks of life. I just don't see any reason to single out teachers for such a requirement. Why not bus drivers, doctors, bank tellers, or even postal workers? And while I'm not accusing you of pettiness, I think some people in the "gun rights community" who suggest such things may be being petty. Teachers and their unions/organizations have long been among our most potent and vocal opponents and in some of the suggestions I've seen to "force" teachers to carry guns I've detected a vengefulness that I find inappropriate, unbecoming, and potentially counterproductive. I know that you reject force as a tool for social change and I suspect you'd agree that educating people regarding the benefits of firearms ownership is far preferable to passing unenforceable, _ex post facto_ laws and regulations. >> The only light I can see coming out of this whole mess is that parents may >>finally wake up and figure out that the NEA/UEA are creating schools that >>are so dangerous to everyone, and so ineffective at teaching, that they >>ought to be just abolished. > >Amen. Which of course leaves us with the task of designing schools and producing teachers who can educate and protect our children and help them to grow into responsible citizens. Our kids, and unfortunately too many of our teachers, lack a solid foundation in academics. Teachers with guns and Eddie Eagle are only a tiny part of the solution. Sarah Sarah Thompson, M.D. http://www.therighter.com GO JAZZ!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: PROVEN SOLUTIONS TO ENDING SCHOOL SHOOTINGS 1/2 Date: 27 May 1998 18:55:00 -0700 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- ****JPFO e-mail Alert!**** Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership, Inc. Aaron Zelman - Executive Director 2874 So. Wentworth Ave. Milwaukee, WI 53207 Ph. (414) 769-0760 Fax (414) 483-8435 http://www.JPFO.org Against-Genocide@JPFO.org 05/21/98 -------- ****URGENT!! CROSS POST FAR AND WIDE!!!**** We apologize for the length of this e-mail. However, due to the extreme severity of the problem we are now facing of more "gun control", we feel strongly compelled to send this. Consider this an emergency alert. Stand by for a media-driven panic. The recent murders committed by a teenage boy at school in Oregon will stimulate more anti-firearms rhetoric. There will be calls for more "gun control" and even outright prohibition of all firearms. Defenders of liberty and the Bill of Rights must be prepared to change the terms of the debate. JPFO members and other rights defenders should take the ideas from this alert and send brief letters to their local newspapers and legislators and governors. We need to beat the "gun prohibitionists" to the punch ... if we don't, we can be sure their lobbyists will be running unobstructed at full power. Understand.....we are moments away from seeing British & Canadian style "gun control" shoved down our throats. It always starts with a crisis. Well, the gun prohibitionists crisis IS here. This is now the 6th school shooting THIS YEAR ALONE. We either decide to become involved NOW, or prepare to see draconian firearms laws, as we have never seen before in this land, this year. PROVEN SOLUTIONS TO ENDING SCHOOL SHOOTINGS copyright, Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership EDITOR'S NOTE: This exclusive interview, copyright by JPFO, puts to rest the ongoing debate of how to deal with the ever increasing violence and bloodshed in America's schools, by showing proven solutions (not just theories) to the problem. Rest assured the answer is not in more "gun control", as the gun prohibitionists would want to brainwash America into believing. In fact, the problem IS gun control. JPFO: Tell us about your background, and your involvement with firearms, and the right to keep and bear arms. SCHILLER: The name is Dr. David Th. Schiller, currently residing in the little town of Nassau, 70 km northwest of Frankfurt. I work as editor-in-chief of VISIER, a 168 page strong general interest gun magazine which I started eleven years ago in Stuttgart and which has now grown to be the most influential and best selling gun magazine in all of Europe. Of course with a gun magazine published in Germany, politics are at the forefront of our editorial work, and we have an eye toward the past. NRA's Steve Halbrook has just been over here and I was glad to help him with his research on Jewish resistance during WWII. I was born in (West) Berlin in '52 in Germany, moved to Israel in '72 and served in the Israel Defense Force's Airborne, which means I am now a veteran of the '73 war, the Lebanese war, and a number of border raids and actions in the occupied territories. Wounded in 1973 on Suez canal, I later studied political science at West Berlin's Free University and mastered with a thesis on the origins of the Civil War in Lebanon and a Ph.D. in '82 with a work on the Palestinians' "love affair" with terrorism and paramilitary activity. When I returned to Germany in '74-'75 for studies I was called upon by the Berlin Police department to consult and teach their SWAT team, which just came into being after the Munich massacre during the Munich Olympics. Over the years this extended into a whole series of work obligations with various police departments in Germany and other places in the world. Due to my work in the Israel Defense Force (IDF) as a drill instructor and weapons specialist and through my academic interest, I had something to teach to these people. I also worked some years for the terrorism research department of Santa Monica's RAND Corporation, and have continued my academic pursuits. Over the years I published a number of books on shooting, police, terrorism, military history etc., most of these under the pseudonym of "Jan Boger". You probably might find a photographic journal of mine in English on the IDF, called "To Live in the Fire...", published in 1977 by the John Olson Publishing Co. in New Jersey. As you can see, I experienced violence and gun control from both ends of the barrel, one might say. And of course, I grew up to be a strong believer in the personal right to self defense, especially as I spent my childhood in the Berlin equivalent of the Bronx. JPFO: What kind of advice could you give the USA to combat the recent school massacres that seemingly have become quite common upon our soil? SCHILLER: Now for Jonesboro and the US gun control laws in regard to schools: Way back in 1973 - '74 I lived in a Kibbutz in Northern Israel, called Ramat Yochanan. During Passover week in '74 we in Galilee experienced the first of a number of PLO attacks specifically targeting schools and children's houses, kindergartens, school buses and the like. It started with an infiltration in Quiriat Schmoneh on the Passover weekend, where the perpetrators found the school empty and locked (of course during the holidays!) and took over a nearby residential building, shooting people and in the end blowing themselves up. A few weeks later the worst of this series of incidents took place in Maalot on May 15th: Three PLO gunmen, after making their way through the border fence, first shot up a van load full of workers returning from a tobacco factory (incidentally these people happened to be Galileean Arabs, not Jews), then they entered the school compound of Maalot. First they murdered the housekeeper, his wife and one of their kids, then they took a whole group of nearly 100 kids and their teachers hostage. These were staying overnight at the school, as they were on a hiking trip. In the end, the deadline ran out, and the army's special unit assaulted the building. During the rescue attempt, the gunmen blew their explosive charges and sprayed the kids with machine-gun fire. 25 people died, 66 wounded. After this a controversial debate erupted in Israel in regards to guns, self defense etc. We heard of course the same dumb arguments by some good people, you always hear on these occasions like "We do not live in the Wild West here!" Or: "Guns don't solve problems!" or similar silly things. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: PROVEN SOLUTIONS TO ENDING SCHOOL SHOOTINGS 2/2 Date: 27 May 1998 18:55:00 -0700 JPFO: Were there any gun laws in Israel in those days? SCHILLER: Now, one has to remember, that Israel still had and has most of the old and very strict gun laws dating back to the days of the British Mandatory (1918-1948) on the books, and we in the promised land have meanwhile grown our share of idiotic bureaucrats and dumb politicians, too. But with the help of some smart people, not the least the then Commander-in-Chief, Northern Command Paratroop General Raful Eytan, all the reservists on the settlements were issued their personal weapons, and whoever had a clean track record could get a concealed weapons permit. I for instance had and still have one. JPFO: What happened then? SCHILLER: Teachers and kindergarten nurses now started to carry guns, schools were protected by parents (and often grandpas) guarding them in voluntary shifts. No school group went on a hike or trip without armed guards. The Police involved the citizens in a voluntary civil guard project "Mishmar Esrachi", which even had its own sniper teams. The Army's Youth Group program, "Gadna", trained 15 - 16 year old kids in gun safety and guard procedures and the older high school boys got involved with the Mishmar Esrachi. During one noted incident, the "Herzliyah Bus massacre" (March '78, hijacking of a bus, 37 dead, 76 wounded), these youngsters were involved in the overall security measures in which the whole area between North Tel Aviv and the resort town of Herzlyiah was blocked off, manning roadblocks with the police, guarding schools, kindergartens etc. No problems with gun safety there, as most kids in Israel grow up used to seeing guns on the street (in the hands of army personnel on leave -- every soldier takes his/her gun home when on leave!). When the message got around to the PLO groups and a couple infiltration attempts failed, the attacks against schools ceased. Too much of a risk here: Terrorists and other evildoers don't like risks. But what does all that teach us? (A) schools/kindergartens make for very attractive targets for the deranged gunman as well as for the profit-oriented hostage gangsters or terrorist group, because: (1) everybody sane will cave in to the demands of the evildoers (even somebody as hard-nosed as Golda Meir, may she rest in peace, said during the Maalot incident, that one does not make politics on the backs of one's children). Nobody wants to play the principles game when kids are involved. Kidnapping has thus often resulted in the paying of ransom demands. (2) if you crave media attention, as for instance the PLO did in the 70s, nothing will catch the headlines better than an attack on a school full of kids. (B) Now THAT is the underlying "reason" behind each and every incident that involved killing sprees in schools... from Maalot to Dunblane to Jonesboro. Only recently the French had a hostage/barricade incident in a kindergarten: the guy wanted money, and the French authorities solved that problem very neatly with a stealth-type approach by one of their special teams and a .357 bullet in the head of the perpetrator, when he refused to surrender. No follow up imitations occurred in France. JPFO: Were there any similar incidents in Germany? SCHILLER: Germany has some of the strictest gun laws this side of Britain and Japan. And needless to say, they are a continuation of the Nazi Gun Laws, even using the same wording. Still, we have a multitude of illegal guns on the streets. Currently the police estimates that there are ten million legal, licensed guns and 20 million illegal, in a total population of less than 80 million people! And we had our school massacres, too: In the early 60s one incident took place in Cologne involving a deranged man who, not having access to guns, built himself a flamethrower. In another incident a few years ago in the vicinity of Frankfurt, another crazy individual shot his way through a school with two handguns, and later committed suicide. Also, prior to the Lockerbie plane bombing (which was only one item in a whole spree of planned and coordinated terror attacks luckily foiled by the authorities), German security services detected in September '88, that a Palestinian splinter group had made plans for a raid on the Jewish kindergarten in Munich. We found the photos, ground plans etc. Apparently the planning of the attack was pretty far along. So you do not have to be a prophet to foresee, that we will see more school-shooting incidents in the U.S. or other western nations, where media attention is focused on these things and where every incident is replayed second by second umpteen times on the tube, thereby creating in the minds of certain viewers examples to follow... Now, can we stop the media from playing out these scenarios in full color and gruesome details for hours and hours, again and again? Certainly not. We in the terrorism research field have argued for decades that it was exactly the media coverage that spurred more and each time more violent and extreme terrorist incidents. Could we stop the media from advertising the terrorist message? Certainly not. That is apparently one price we have to pay living in a worldwide infotainment society. The airplane hijackings in the 70s and 80s are a case in point. The only thing we can do is protect possible victims...And laws written in some books will not achieve that. Never have, never will. ...Enough said. I rest my case. JPFO: How can our readers and members contact you? SCHILLER: Our e-mail address is: visier@paulparey.de or my mailing address: Dr. David Th. Schiller VISIER, P.O.Box 1363 D-56373, Nassau, Germany **************************************************************** Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JPFO) Chris W. Stark - Director of Electronic Communications 2874 So. Wentworth Ave. Milwaukee, WI 53207 Ph. (414) 769-0760 Fax (414) 483-8435 Against-Genocide@JPFO.org Visit our Web Page at: http://www.JPFO.org STAND UP AND BE COUNTED! IF YOUR NOT A MEMBER OF JPFO, THIS IS NOW THE TIME TO BECOME A MEMBER. To become a JPFO member, go to: http://www.jpfo.org/member.htm There you will see a printable member application, along with info on membership. If you wish, you can become a member using our on-line application as well. MEMBERSHIP IS OPEN TO ALL LAW ABIDING CITIZENS. "America's Most Aggressive Defender of Firearms Ownership." **************************************************************** Copyright (c) 1998, JPFO Republication permitted provided this article & attribution is left intact in its original state. **************************************************************** TO SUBSCRIBE TO OUR E-MAIL ALERTS, send an e-mail to: subscribe@JPFO.org in the body of the message, type the word "subscribe" - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Why Our Children Kill So Easily Date: 27 May 1998 18:55:00 -0700 From the Vigo-Examiner: GUEST EDITORIAL Why Our Children Kill So Easily by CARL F. WORDEN During World War II it was discovered that only 15% of all American soldiers actually fired their small arms directly at the enemy when engaged in a firelight. The other 85% deliberately fired over the heads of the enemy or into the dirt in front of them. Only 15% actually indexed their sights on specific enemy personnel with deliberate precision and pulled the trigger. The reason? Whether trained as combat soldiers or not, humans have a strong, inborn inhibition against killing a fellow human being -- even when they know that human being is intent upon killing them. Faced with this unsettling discovery, the military began using desensitization techniques in combat training, and by the end of the Viet Nam War, 95% of American combat soldiers shot to kill the enemy. The techniques used to overcome the inhibition to kill involved mental, rather than physical conditioning. Where soldiers shot at stationary, bullseye-type targets in WWII, modern soldiers are taught to shoot at human form targets that instantly pop up and then fall down when the soldier hits the target. Other techniques used are video enactments that show human beings engaged in attacking the soldier head on. The soldier is conditioned to rapidly index and shoot the enemy before he can get a off shot at him. Over and over again, these scenarios are played out with chilling success, finally culminating in a soldier who will kill by pure conditioning, almost like a machine. These same techniques are now taught to modern police officers using "shoot -- don't shoot" scenarios using the same large screens and various videos that present situations in which the officer must make a split second decision whether to fire or not -- and at which target. The lesson to be learned from all this is that by repeated extrinsic mental conditioning, even the strongest, most innate human inhibitions can be overcome. Of course, the subconscious mind is still quite cognizant of the soldier's actions on the battlefield, and this may help to explain why so many more Viet Nam era veterans suffered such a high rate of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and suicide than WWII veterans did. In addition, this phenomenally successful conditioning to kill was not countered by resensitization training when Viet Nam veterans were returned to society, and that may explain why so many Viet Nam veterans returned to commit a number of heinously violent crimes. This desensitization to killing is no longer limited to military and police applications: It is being subliminally taught to society in general, and to our young in particular, through violent, interactive video games. It is also being reinforced through repeated viewing of violent television and movie depictions. Over and over again, society is being inundated with graphic images of bloody violence and satisfying violent revenge. Incessantly condition the impressionable adolescent to kill through grotesquely violent interactive video games, and you have a somewhat sociopathic youngster who has been conditioned to pull a trigger first and then consider the emotional consequences later -- just like our modern, well-trained combat soldiers are trained to do. The recent spate of school shootings by students are also a manifestation of this desensitization conditioning. These little murderers are often quoted as saying they didn't "realize" what they did would really hurt people. That's not as far-fetched an alibi as it appears on the surface. These kids have been deluged with movie killings where the same "bad" guys are killed over and over again. They play interactive video games where they "kill" the opponent over and over again, and with a few more coins, they get to kill him again. Remember, these are often young children, barely over 10 years old, who have seldom seen a real violent death of another human being. If it's proven that we can condition adult soldiers to completely overcome their aversion to kill another human being, how much easier must it be to condition a child to do the same? In support of this, consider that guns have been accessible to children ever since this country was founded, yet children did not begin to bring these guns to school and use them until -- and get this -- interactive video technology and superbly mastered special effects in increasingly more violent movies and other media came into play. Sure, there were isolated incidents in times past, but nothing to compare to the rash of school related murders we see happening today. We don't have more child access to firearms, but we do have children who have been systematically desensitized to taking a human life, and reversing that condition represents an undertaking so radical and invasive that it may well prove impossible to reverse. http://www.Vigo-Examiner.com Enjoy a free 90 day trial subscription to The Vigo Examiner. You will receive one to three of our top stories or editorials each day. Send your subscription request, and all other communication to Editor@Vigo-Examiner.com. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: JUST SAY "NO!" TO GUN TAX Date: 27 May 1998 18:55:00 -0700 NRA-ILA FAX ALERT 11250 Waples Mill Road * Fairfax, VA 22030 Phone: 1-800-392-8683 * Fax: 703-267-3918 * GROOTS@NRA.org Vol. 5, No. 20 5/22/98 JUST SAY "NO!" TO GUN TAX For several months, rumors have been circulating as to how the National Instant Check System (NICS) will be implemented when it goes on-line this November 30. The NICS is the system that will replace the Brady Act's original five-day waiting period on the purchase of handguns from Federal Firearms License (FFL) holders. The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has recently announced that there will be a fee involved for all purchases of firearms from FFL holders, which they refer to as a "user fee." In simple terms, this would amount to a tax on your right to keep and bear arms! The original language of the Brady Act, however, does not call for a fee on this check. NRA can only assume that the proposals to charge fees -- some reports put the proposed fees as high as $30.00 -- have been encouraged by the Clinton/Gore Administration. Additionally, FBI has stated that they intend to retain firearms transfer information for 18 months. The current law requires the information be destroyed immediately once the transaction for the background check has been completed. In response to these developments, pro-Second Amendment U.S. Rep. Bob Barr (R-Ga.) has introduced H.R. 3949, which would prohibit any fee from being charged by FBI in order to run NICS, and require that firearms transfer information be destroyed within two hours from receipt of the information. We also anticipate U.S. Senator Ted Stevens (R-Alaska) will introduce similar legislation in the Senate very soon. Please call your federal lawmakers immediately at (202)225-3121, and urge your Representative to become a cosponsor of H.R. 3949, and your Senators to support similar efforts in the Senate. Currently Representatives Barcia (R-Mich.), Boucher (D-Va.), Graham (R-S.C.), and Strickland (D-Ohio) have signed on as cosponsors of H.R. 3949. CSG OPPOSES S. 10 Last week, during the Council of State Governments' (CSG) Spring 1998 National Committee and Task Force Meeting in Phoenix, Arizona, the Corrections Policy Task Force approved a resolution in opposition to S. 10, which is Senator Orrin Hatch's Violent and Repeat Juvenile Offender Act of 1997. The CSG resolution mirrors NRA's serious concerns regarding several provisions that could affect FFL holders and the general transfer of firearms. CLINTON/GORE IMPORT BAN NRA has heard rumors that BATF is asking firearms distributors who sell rifles that were affected by the recent import ban on certain semi-automatics for documentation. The word is that they are looking for documentation that any affected firearms were acquired from their suppliers prior to the ban going into effect. We are looking for more details on this rumor, so if you are a firearms dealer that has been contacted by BATF about certain imports, please call us at 1-800-392-8683. A LOOK AT THE STATES ARIZONA: Good News! Recently, Governor Hull (R) signed House Bill 2041, which establishes right to carry reciprocity with states that have similar requirements for carry permit issuance. We'll keep you posted as states are announced! FLORIDA: Governor Chiles vetoed HB 909, which was right to carry reciprocity legislation that would have allowed Florida to recognize out-of-state carry licenses and allowed Florida license holders to carry for self-protection in certain other states. Members are urged to support those candidates who support our rights at the polls this election year -- especially in the race for Governor! TENNESSEE: Gun owners and sportsmen across Tennessee will no longer be subjected to a 15-day waiting period on the purchase of handguns. This solid victory for gun owners became reality on Tuesday, May 19, when Governor Sundquist (R) signed House Bill 2410. As of November 1, 1998, gun owners will be able to walk into a gun store, fill out the usual paperwork, wait just seconds for the clerk to check your background, and then walk out with their new purchase. This will be done through an instant check system operated by the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation. Also, prior to the passage of HB 2410, the law required both dealers and individuals to get a certificate of good moral character signed by the chief of police or sheriff of their county and submit it to the Commissioner of Revenue for a permit to engage in the selling of any firearms, including the sale of personal firearms to friends and neighbors. The NRA was successful in having both of these onerous sections deleted. Additionally, House Bill 2410 eliminated the requirement of reporting secondary sales of firearms to local authorities. Thanks to the hard work of fellow gun owners, many friends in the State Legislature, and the assistance of NRA-ILA, a giant leap has been achieved in restoring the rights of law-abiding gun owners in Tennessee. House Bill 2410, was sponsored by Representatives Frank Buck (D-40), H.E. Bittle (R-14), Chris Newton (R-22), Tre' Hargett (R-97), John Tidwell (D-74), Doug Jackson (D-69) and Senator David Fowler (R-11). In addition, an NRA logo license plate has been approved for the state. There's a catch, though: 500 people must apply for a plate through the Department of Motor Vehicles prior to July 1, 1999, before the state will issue the plates. Otherwise, the state will cancel the special plates. Most importantly, the profits from these sales will be placed in a special fund of the wildlife resources agency for gun safety programs. This information is provided as a service of the National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative Action, Fairfax, VA. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Gun Confiscation Story Updated Date: 27 May 1998 18:55:00 -0700 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- The AP will send out the same story several times as more data is gathered. The version I sent out yesterday was one of the earlier versions. This one was available from the Boston Globe website, but I had assumed they were the same story. Here's the updated version for anyone who's interested: 15-year-old charged, father's guns seized after teacher threatened Associated Press, 05/26/98 18:47 LITTLE EGG HARBOR TOWNSHIP, N.J. (AP) - Skittish after a wave of school shootings, police arrested a 15-year-old boy and seized more than 20 of his father's guns after the boy showed a teacher a drawing of someone being shot, authorities said Tuesday. The Pinelands Regional High School freshman, whose name wasn't being released, was charged with making terroristic threats against the 35-year-old teacher Friday. Fearful that the boy had access to them, police seized the weapons and more than 100 rounds of ammunition as a precaution. Two AK-47s were among them, an unidentified police source told The Press of Atlantic City, but police Detective Robert Knapp denied that Tuesday. The father, a hunting safety instructor for the state Division of Fish, Game and Wildlife, had the appropriate ownership documents for the weapons and was not charged, police said. He cooperated with police, according to Officer Jeffrey Wilson. Mayor John Adair defended the police reaction Tuesday, saying it was pro-active instead of reactive, and appropriate in light of last week's school shootings in Springfield, Ore., and other recent school attacks. ``It perhaps could have prevented a more serious crime from occurring,'' he said. Neither the boy's name nor the teacher's name was released. The teacher told police the boy showed her ``a handwritten drawing of a person being killed at gunpoint,'' and asked her what she thought of it, according to police reports. The drawing depicted a male victim in the crosshairs of a rifle scope saying ``Help.'' Another figure in the drawing said ``You're dead.'' The boy had had behavior problems in school and ``past incidents of aggressive behavior,'' Knapp told The Press of Atlantic City. He was charged because the teacher took the drawing as a threat, Wilson said. In addition, the boy had written a fairy tale in his English class that included a graphic murder, said Tish Steward, a math teacher at the school who is president of the Pinelands Teachers' Association. Classmates described the boy as an avid hunter who sometimes wore camouflage to school and often talked about guns. ``He was always talking about them. He wants to be in the Army,'' said Erica Smith, 14, a fellow freshman. But students said they never heard him threaten anyone or talk about killing people. ``He just talked about hunting a lot,'' said Buddy Branscomb, 14, another freshman. The school is located in a rural area of southern New Jersey known as the Pine Barrens, where hunting and fishing are popular pursuits. ``Around here, everyone has a shotgun. It's scary,'' said Marko Ritter, 17, a junior at the school. After the arrest, police obtained a search warrant from Superior Court Judge Frank Buczynski Jr. for the boy's home and found the guns. They were confiscated to prevent the boy from having access to them and were still being held Tuesday, police said. ``In a case where someone has made terroristic threats,'' police may remove weapons or restrict access to them until a judge decides it is safe to return them, according to Gregory Sakowicz, executive assistant prosecutor for Ocean County. ``It happens in domestic violence cases all the time,'' Sakowicz said. ``It's an access issue.'' The boy, who was released to his parents, was arraigned Tuesday before Family Court Judge Barbara Villano in Toms River. He was not suspended from school, police said. School officials did not return telephone calls about the case Tuesday. The Boston Globe http://www.boston.com/dailynews/wirehtml/146/15_year_old_charged__father_s_guns -- Nation In Distress http://www.involved.com/ewolfe/distress/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Extreme Gun Control Date: 28 May 1998 07:00:00 -0700 From composite of sources. - Scott Is this where we're headed? - Ed Wolfe 26 HELD AFTER WATER PISTOLS BATTLE 25 May 1998 19:52 Twenty-six people were arrested during the Bank Holiday weekend's annual Run to the Sun rally, attended by thousands of Volkswagen Beetle and camper van enthusiasts in Newquay, Cornwall, police said today. The arrests were mostly for offences of drunkenness and disorder. Once again a major feature of the event was the running water pistol battle in the streets by those taking part in the rally. This year more than 100 water pistols were confiscated, said police. © 1998 Press Association -- Nation In Distress http://www.involved.com/ewolfe/distress/ As we watch the complete moral decay and destruction of our society by those who refuse to see the consequences of their failed socialist policies, we are next forced to accept their more extreme, socialist policies as solutions. -- This is the only link I could find, but it's one of those where you have to register to get in. The article was taken from Sky News, so you may find a link to that somewhere. (I swear I am not making this up, Britain really is this stupid these days) http://www.lineone.net/freesite/l1login.cgi Goldie the Yob Leicester England http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/mark.goode/ ICQ# 4691481 Shoe size: 9 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Extreme Gun Control -Forwarded Date: 28 May 1998 08:58:14 -0700 Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0yf3hi-00010W-00; Thu, 28 May 1998 08:30:50 -0600 Received: from (mail.xmission.com) [198.60.22.22] by lists.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0yf3hg-00010M-00; Thu, 28 May 1998 08:30:48 -0600 Received: from xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2] (admn) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yf3hf-0001JB-00; Thu, 28 May 1998 08:30:47 -0600 Received: (from admn@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.8/8.7.5) id IAA05829 for utah-firearms@xmission.com; Thu, 28 May 1998 08:30:42 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: xmission.xmission.com: admn set sender to utahnet!scott.bergeson using -f Message-ID: <8EFF1A4.01F500818B.uuout@ucs.org> Organization: Utah Computer Society Salt Lake City, Ut, USA 801-281-8339 X-Mailreader: PCBoard Version 15.22 X-Mailer: PCBoard/UUOUT Version 1.20 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-utah-firearms@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: utah-firearms@lists.xmission.com From composite of sources. - Scott Is this where we're headed? - Ed Wolfe 26 HELD AFTER WATER PISTOLS BATTLE 25 May 1998 19:52 Twenty-six people were arrested during the Bank Holiday weekend's annual Run to the Sun rally, attended by thousands of Volkswagen Beetle and camper van enthusiasts in Newquay, Cornwall, police said today. The arrests were mostly for offences of drunkenness and disorder. Once again a major feature of the event was the running water pistol battle in the streets by those taking part in the rally. This year more than 100 water pistols were confiscated, said police. # 1998 Press Association -- Nation In Distress http://www.involved.com/ewolfe/distress/ As we watch the complete moral decay and destruction of our society by those who refuse to see the consequences of their failed socialist policies, we are next forced to accept their more extreme, socialist policies as solutions. -- This is the only link I could find, but it's one of those where you have to register to get in. The article was taken from Sky News, so you may find a link to that somewhere. (I swear I am not making this up, Britain really is this stupid these days) http://www.lineone.net/freesite/l1login.cgi Goldie the Yob Leicester England http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/mark.goode/ ICQ# 4691481 Shoe size: 9 - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: [Fwd: Dr Laura's monologue on the Oregon Shootings] Date: 28 May 1998 09:31:25 -0700 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Wed, 27 May 1998 16:08:55 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id SAA05903; Wed, 27 May 1998 18:07:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma005719; Wed May 27 18:06:09 1998 Message-Id: <356C7D51.4D5598AB@ix.netcom.com> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: cyrano@ix.netcom.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------763FE41FD3ADEF011483478B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- Steve Silver Proud Member of the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy & Vice President, The Lawyer's Second Amendment Society, Inc. 18034 Ventura Blvd., No. 329, Encino, CA 91316 * (818) 734-3066 For a complimentary copy of the LSAS's newsletter, "The Liberty Pole," e-mail your snail-mail address to: LSAS3@aol.com The LSAS is a 501(c)(4) non-profit corporation * * * Self defense is not a crime. Firearms: They save lives. --------------763FE41FD3ADEF011483478B Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from lists.xmission.com (lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7]) by ixmail3.ix.netcom.com (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7/(NETCOM v1.01)) with SMTP id NAA04147; ; Wed, 27 May 1998 13:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0yemeb-0000Vo-00; Wed, 27 May 1998 14:18:29 -0600 Received: from (mail.xmission.com) [198.60.22.22] by lists.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0yemeQ-0000RC-00; Wed, 27 May 1998 14:18:18 -0600 Received: from (med3.minerva.com) [192.88.236.16] by mail.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yemXw-0006j9-00; Wed, 27 May 1998 14:11:36 -0600 Received: from minerva.com by med3.minerva.com ; Wed, 27 May 1998 13:17 PST Received: from barak ([199.172.23.2]) by avatar.minerva.com (sFSRV.0b0 10/22/97) with SMTP id 000118Y; Wed, 27 May 1998 13:10:40 -0700 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Wed, 27 May 1998 13:00:38 -0700 Message-ID: <01BD896F.720EA720.Jack@minerva.com> Organization: Athena Programming X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: roc@lists.xmission.com Dr Laura's monologue on the Oregon Shootings Dr. Laura Schlessinger 5/21/98 I have something I think is very important to say. This seems kind of stupid because, frankly, every time I open my mouth I'm trying to be important. But I think you better listen up. It's one of those situations where when you look at a unique event, one raindrop falling from the heavens, you go, "It's a unique experience." If you stand back and see that there are 40 million scrillion raindrops falling from the heavens with a big wind behind them, you have a whole different perspective. When you stand back and look at the whole of it, you see you're in a hurricane and the top of your house just went. So perspective is everything. So sometimes when you just look at each event, define it and put it away, you can feel very safe, but you're not. You better stand back and see that it's one raindrop in a hurricane. On my way to work today, I heard about the student in the public high school in Oregon, killed his parents and his sister, somebody else at school, and a score or two of other children are seriously hurt. If you look at each one of these events, kids doing drive-by shootings. Just take one event in the newspaper on one day, you go, "Bad kid." Shooting each other in schools. Isolated event. Bad kid. Kids committing suicide at rates unknown in modern times. Well, listening to bad music. Kids having babies at 11 and 12 and 13 and 14 and 15 and 16, and killing them, or wrapping them up in a towel and burying them in the earth, or flushing them down a toilet. It's an isolated event. The kids on drugs and alcohol at levels I never heard of when I was a kid. If somebody sneaked a beer, and it wasn't me because I couldn't even stand the smell. But if somebody sneaked a beer, that was a big deal. And if you listen to this program at all, you can tell that there are very few parents out there who feel any sense of authority with their children. The children rule. So if you stand back and look at all of these things, not as an isolated raindrop, you see an apocalypse. And I am really dead serious about this, and it would seem lately, more and more, dead is the operative term. I perceive this as the ultimate in backlash and revenge of the children brought up by a generation who invented a whole new way of life. New and improved way of life. And these are the improvements. Commitment is temporary. We've redefined it. There are even books out called A Good Divorce. We've got people shacking up, making babies, moving on, making babies, moving on, not seeing their kids, moving away. Judges saying, "Not a problem. You want to move your kids away from their dad? Honey babe, you deserve to be happy. Screw the kid." Got women living with guys they're not married to who are molesting their children, at much higher rates than marital situations by far. We have daycare. That's new and improved. Women have the right to abandon their children, and their children will be happy about it as long as the mommies are happy. Whose moronic idea is that? Abortion is commonplace. You get pregnant, you don't want it, you suck it into a sink. No problem. It's not a person. You don't think all this mentality gives a complete irreverence for life? How do children feel important when they're not? Whether you stay married. Whether you are married. It's all unimportant. The children don't matter. It's your happiness. So we have chaos in the home. We have, therefore, chaos in society. My children are not safe from your children any more. These are not isolated raindrops. And the best, the best new and improved idea in our society is to remove God as an issue in the family, so that all holidays we now have magazines and news articles extolling the virtues of interfaith-less marriages, where we eat a little matzo and paint a few eggs and call it a holiday. It is so cute! It's adorable! See how tolerant we are? But you better keep God out of the holiday. But as long as we have a little matzo and a little eggs that we can paint, we think we've brought God to our kids and our lives. We've more and more become unwilling to study, to pray, to observe because, you know why? It's time consuming and annoying and it's not really necessary anyway. The most important thing is my fulfillment. Damn backwards! Damn backwards! So generation provided this chaos, lack of home, lack of parents, lack of family, lack of stability, lack of reverence for life, lack of God, and we have a big hurricane. Now I was on Meet the Press and something else when other kids killed in other schools and I don't think anybody heard me clearly. Maybe I said it too tactfully, so I'm going to be a little less tactful now. This is a lab experiment that failed! We've created international Lord of the Flies. Kids have no respect for life. They know they're not important. They don't see any purpose. They don't see any security. They don't ultimately see any love because we have no time and no interest in anything but acquisition. That's what's important. Character, fidelity, stability, the preciousness of life, God - these are not relevant as long as the economy is okay. Isn't that indicative of "we don't care"? I am not the slightest bit surprised, although I am beyond myself in grief for the parents who are losing children this way. I mean I can't imagine the pain of sending your kid to school and having this happen. Even having the threat of it. But our kids are going to continue to do drive-bys, to blow away mass murder in school, to kill themselves, to make babies, kill them and abandon them and abuse them, be on drugs, be on alcohol and scare the crap out of you and everybody else and each other because we taught them that they don't matter and nothing else does. This is the revenge for our new order. You still want to argue with me? How foolish can you be? - --------------763FE41FD3ADEF011483478B-- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Re: Are we surprised? NOT! -Forwarded Date: 28 May 1998 11:15:43 -0700 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Thu, 28 May 1998 10:09:01 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id MAA15625; Thu, 28 May 1998 12:07:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma010044; Thu May 28 11:48:35 1998 Message-Id: <9805281449.AA04290@geol.niu.edu> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: neil@geol.niu.edu Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Bruce Stanton wrote: >Could also mean that gunowners are getting smarter. If some stranger >called me on the phone and asked me if I had any guns, I'd tell him >I don't know what he is talking about. > >It's best to keep quiet. What is legal today may be illegal tomorrow. >In spite of form 4473, a lot of people still have guns that the feds >don't know anything about. > >> >Poll: Most Americans favor stricter gun laws >> > WASHINGTON (Reuters) - >> [snip] >> > The poll also said the percentage of gun owners has dropped in the last >> >25 years. In 1973, 48 percent of of adults had guns in their homes compared >> >to 32 percent today, down from 40 percent two years ago. >> >> Hmmm......If less homes have firearms, and we have more regulation than >> before, then there would seem to be a correlation between more gun laws >> and less homes with firearms. I've had some training in statistics and know a bit about sampling methods, random populations, and related issues. I know that a random sample of a certain size can be considered a 'statistically valid' representation of a larger, or much larger, population, and have studied the arguments which are used to support the notion. However, it is a characteristic of random populations that they clump, and, modern demographic databases being what they are, it would be child's play to design a 'statistically valid' sampling of a random population the size of our country which could produce virtually any desired result. It is common to read of polls in which the database is something like 1000 to 2000 persons, and the results are extrapolated to the 350 million or so inhabitants of the nation. In order to reach valid conclusions regarding the results of the poll it is necessary to know the sampling distribution at least, and I have never seen it given. Pick your 1-2000 persons from YuppieGhettos or perhaps the faculty of the University of California at Berkeley (Think of it!), and you can get one sort of result. Pick them from rural communities in the south or west, and you'll get another. I think that Bruce may have a good point about gun owners choosing not to reveal what they have in the house, because that bit about rates of gun ownership dropping flies in the face of everything else I have seen and heard on the subject for the last 10 years. For example, I had a friend (passed on now) who owned a gunshop in the area, and a bunch of us used to go hang out there on Monday evenings. When Bill Clinton was elected President I noticed that the tempo of his sales increased, and the 'regulars hadn't changed their habits. After a few years had passed, I asked him if my perception was valid. He replied that it was, and that the last few years had been boom years for him. He had been in the business for 40 years or more, and the year immediately previous had been the best ever. He told me that "Bill Clinton is the best gun salesman [he'd] ever seen." I personally think of it as my civic duty to lie to pollsters. Gun ownership has *skyrocketed* in this country in the last 10 years. Those pollsters are engaged in wishful thinking at best, or are baldfaced liars at worst. The opinions which I have expressed herein are entirely my own, unless other- wise noted. No-one else should be held responsible for what I think. | D. N. Dickey | Virtuous motives, trammeled by inertia and | | Research Associate | timidity, are no match for armed and | | Northern Illinois Univ. | resolute wickedness. | | neil@earth.geol.niu.edu | - W. S. Churchill | | **Finger for public key** | | - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Fratrum: The Looting of America (fwd) -Forwarded Date: 28 May 1998 11:25:49 -0700 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Thu, 28 May 1998 01:36:27 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id DAA05011; Thu, 28 May 1998 03:33:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma005006; Thu May 28 03:33:33 1998 Message-Id: <9805280734.0keh@xpresso.seaslug.org> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: noban@xpresso.seaslug.org Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list On May 27, Eugene W. Gross wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] The Looting of America How over 200 Civil Asset Forfeiture laws enable police to confiscate your home, bank accounts & business without trial. by Jarret Wollstein `A police dog scratched at your luggage, so we're confiscating your life savings and you'll never get it back.' In 1989, police stopped 49-year-old Ethel Hylton at Houston's Hobby Airport and told her she was under arrest because a drug dog had scratched at her luggage. Agents searched her bags and strip-searched her, but they found no drugs. They did find $39,110 in cash, money she had received from an insurance settlement and her life savings; accumulated through over 20 years of work as a hotel housekeeper and hospital janitor. Ethel Hylton completely documented where she got the money and was never charged with a crime. But the police kept her money anyway. Nearly four years later, she is still trying to get her money back. Ethel Hylton is just one of a large and growing list of Americans -- now numbering in the hundreds of thousands -- who have been victimized by civil asset forfeiture. Under civil asset forfeiture, everything you own can be legally taken away even if you are never indicted, tried or convicted of a crime. Suspicion of offenses which, if proven in court, might result in a $200 fine or probation, are being used to justify seizure of tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of property. Totally innocent Americans are losing their cars, homes and businesses, based on the claims of anonymous informants that illegal transactions took place on their property. Once property is seized, it is virtually impossible to get it back. Property is now being seized in every state and from every class of Americans. Seizures include pocket money confiscated from public housing residents in Florida; cars taken away from men suspected of soliciting prostitutes in Oregon; and homes taken away from ordinary, middle class Americans whose teenage children are accused of selling a few joints of marijuana. No person and no property is immune from seizure. You could be the next victim. Here are some examples: -- In Washington, D.C. police stop black men on the streets in poor areas of the city, and "routinely confiscate small amounts of cash and jewelry". Most confiscated property is not even recorded by police departments. "Resident Ben Davis calls it `robbery with a badge'."[USA Today, 5/18/92] -- In Iowa, "a woman accused of shoplifting a $25 sweater had her $18,000 car -- specially equipped for her handicapped daughter -- seized as the `getaway vehicle'." [USA Today, 5/18/92] -- In December 1988, Detroit drug police raided a grocery store, but failed to find any drugs. After drug dogs reacted to three $1.00 bills in the cash register, the police seized $4,384 from cash registers and the store safe. According to the Pittsburgh Press, over 92% of all cash in circulation in the U.S. now shows some drug residue. -- In April 1992, Dr. Joseph Disbrow was accused of practicing psychiatry without a license. His crime was providing counselling services from a spare bedroom in his mother's house in Monmouth, New Jersey. Counselling does not require a license in New Jersey. That didn't stop police from seizing virtually everything of value from his mother's home, totalling over $60,000. The forfeiture squad confiscated furniture, carpets, paintings, and even personal photographs. -- Kathy and Mark Schrama were arrested just before Christmas 1990 at their home in New Jersey. Kathy was charged with taking $500 worth of UPS packages from neighbors' porches. Mark was charged with receiving stolen goods. If found guilty, they might have paid a small fine and received probation. The day after their arrest, their house, cars and furniture were seized. Based upon mere accusation, $150,000 in property was confiscated, without trial or indictment. Police even took their clothing, eyeglasses, and Christmas presents for their 10-year-old son. The incentive for government agencies to expand forfeiture is enormous. Agencies can easily seize property and they usually keep what they take. According to the Pittsburgh Press, 80% of seizure victims are never even charged with a crime. Law enforcement agencies often keep the best seized cars, watches and TVs for their "departments", and sell the rest. How extensive are seizures in America today? In April 1990, The Washington Post reported that the U.S. Marshals Service alone had an inventory of over $1.4 billion in seized assets, including over 30,000 cars, boats, homes and businesses. Federal and state agencies seizing property now include the FBI, the DEA, the U.S. Marshals Service, the Coast Guard, the IRS, local police, highway patrol, the Department of Housing and Urban Development, FDA, and the Bureau of Land Management. Asset forfeiture is th industry. Seizures have increased from $27 million in 1986, to over $644 million in 1991. In 1992, seizures may exceed $1 billion. Civil asset forfeiture defines a new standard of justice in America; or more precisely, a new standard of injustice. Under civil seizure, property, not an individual is charged with an offense. Even if you are a totally innocent owner, the government can still confiscate your "guilty" property. If government agents seize your property under civil asset forfeiture, you can forget about being innocent until proven guilty, due process of law, the right to an attorney, or even the right to trial. All of those rights only exist if you are charged with a criminal offense; that is, with an offense which could result in your imprisonment. If you (or your property) are accused of a civil offense (offenses which could not result in your imprisonment), the Supreme Count has ruled that you have no presumption of innocence, no right to an attorney, and no protection from double jeopardy. Seizure occurs when government takes away your property. Forfeiture is when legal title is permanently transferred to the state. To get seized property returned, you have to fight the full resources of your state or the federal government; sometimes both! You have to prove your property's "innocence" by documenting how you earned every cent used to pay for it. You have to prove that neither you nor any of your family members ever committed an illegal act involving the property. To get a trial, you have to post a non-refundable "bond" of 10% of the value of your property. You have to pay attorney fees -- ranging from $5,000 to over $100,000 -- out of your own pocket. Money you pay your attorney is also subject to seizure (either before or after the trial) if the government alleges that those funds were "tainted". And you may be forced to go through trial after trial, because under civil seizure the Constitutional protection against "double jeopardy" doesn't apply. Once property is seized, expect to spend years fighting government agencies and expect to be impoverished by legal fees -- with no guarantee of winning -- while the government keeps your car, home and bank account. As bad as current asset forfeiture laws are, far worse is just ahead. Hundreds of expanded asset forfeiture bills are pending before Congress and state legislatures. The 1991 Omnibus Crime Bill (passed by Congress, but vetoed by President Bush for being "too soft" on crime), increases from six months to six-and-one-half years the time officials have to return "improperly seized" property to its rightful owners. The 1992 Omnibus Crime Bill extends civil asset forfeiture to political dissent. Under this Bill, if "violence" occurs during a political activity, the assets of the sponsoring organization are subject to forfeiture. If a fist fight broke out during a union picket, all of the union's assets could be seized. Even before this Bill has passed, cars belonging to Operation Rescue demonstrators are being confiscated. Civil asset forfeiture is the beginning of the end of justice in America. Current and pending laws give government agencies the legal right to loot at will. The threat of asset forfeiture can be used to intimidate businesses, silence dissent, and destroy families. Some people are fighting back. A New Jersey-based group, Forfeiture Endangers American Rights (FEAR), is lobbying Congress and creating a national network of forfeiture defense attorneys. The Drug Policy Foundation and the Criminal Justice Policy Foundation (both based in Washington, D.C.) are fighting existing and proposed asset forfeiture laws. These groups need your help to succeed. The fight against civil asset forfeiture is a battle against tyranny in America. If forfeiture squads continue to expand, liberty and justice in America will become a fading memory. We must stop government looters and restore the rule of law now. Tomorrow will be too late. Jarret B. Wollstein is a director of ISIL and the author of 300 published articles. GROUPS FIGHTING ASSET FORFEITURE Criminal Justice Policy Foundation, 2000 L Street, NW, Suite 702, Washington, DC 20036 (202) 835-9075. $90 per year. Drug Policy Foundation, 4801 Massachusetts Avenue, NW, Suite 400, Washington, DC 20016 (202)895-1634. $35 per year. Families Against Mandatory Minimums, 1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW, Suite 200 South, Washington, DC 20004. (202) 457-5790. $35 per year. FEAR (Forfeiture Endangers American Rights), P.O. Box 5424, Somerset, NJ 08875 Tel: (908) 873-1251. $55 per year. RECOMMENDED READING The Closing Door by Dan Rosenthal ......................... $30.00 Presumed Guilty by Schneider/Flaherty ..................... $6.00 Spectre of Forfeiture by Judy Osburn ...................... $14.95 For these and other books and tapes write: Freedom's Forum Books, 1800 Market Street, San Francisco, California 94102. Add $2.50 P & H for 1st book and $1.00 for each additional item. Attractive two-color hard copies of this pamphlet are available for 5 cents each (minimum order $1.00). Price includes shipping. This pamphlet is produced as a public service by the International Society for Individual Liberty. If you would like to receive free literature about ISIL's activities around the world, and receive a sample copy of the FREEDOM NETWORK NEWS newsletter and book catalog, please write: INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY FOR INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY 1800 Market Street, San Francisco, California 94102 Tel: (415) 864-0952 Fax: (415) 864-7506 [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: Hidden bias in statisticians Date: 28 May 1998 11:43:58 -0600 I found this in my old emails and thought you might find it interesting. I'm sure it applies in every area, not just guns/crime research. ----BEGIN FORWARDED MESSGE---- Hi guys; In response to the Pearson/ Spearman debate going on around here, I decided to do a little experiment. I took the data set from Killias's study, and made a copy. For the copy, I re-labelled the "% of households with a firearm" to "% of households with a TV set." I changed the names of countries to names of American states. I plotted both sets of data, but I changed the axis orientation, and the units, so that it was not obvious at first glance that the numbers were identical. I increased the least significant digit of all data by one unit, so that the numbers were not clearly identical when looking at a chart. "Total" and "with gun" was changed to "Daytime" and "Nightime." I then presented these two data sets to a professor of statistics at a major university. His name will remain confidential, for reasons to soon become clear. What was interesting is that this professor had very different feelings about which method was preferrable ( Spearman or Pearson ), and what constituted an outlier, and what predictive value the model had, *DEPENDING ON WHAT HE THOUGHT HE WAS MEASURING*. When he thought he was looking at TV data, he rejected both the "US" data and the "Northern Ireland" data as being outliers. We then calculated rho values, using Pearson. I asked him about Spearman, and he said that Spearman would be misleading here. Spearman, he said, tends to ignore outliers, and while it was a useful tool when the data set is noisy, Spearman is so powerful and robust at finding correlation that it can find one where there is no actual correlation. His conclusion was that TV prevalence was not correlated with homicide at any hour, and had no strong affect on suicide during the day, but that for some reason, TV seemed to increase the incidence of suicide at night. He offerred a theory about TV keeping people up at an hour when fewer people are around, and thus there was no one around to interfere with any suicidal tendencies. He suggested that TV makes it more likely that a suicide will be attempted at night, when it is more likely to be successful. I asked him about the "US" outlier. He said that the point was clearly off the linear curve. I pointed out that the relationship between TV and homicide might not be linear, it might be, for example, Quadratic. He said that if the relationship is not linear, then there are an infinte number of curves that could be drawn through those points, and that the data set was not strong enough to decide between them. So, if the relationship is not linear, then there is no telling what it might be, and so the data has no predictive value as to what might happen if we reduced the prevalence of TV in a particular state. When I switched to the "Gun data", his story changed. He wanted to include the U.S data, but he didn't like the Northern Ireland data very much. We cranked out the Pearson rho, and he frowned. He then switched to Spearman, and got numbers he liked better. When I asked him why, he hemmed and hawed, and said that Spearman can be better for social research because all social research numbers are noisy. When I asked about the US data as an outlier, he said that the US data was not so far off as to be excluded. He said that the relationship between guns and homicide was probably not linear, and that the US point may represent the upward curve of a Quadratic function. At this point, he went back to the TV numbers, looked them over, cleared his throat, and asked me if they were the same data. I admitted they were. He looked back and forth at the data, looked at me, became very uncomfortable, and told me that he was expecting a grad student in for an appointment soon, and that I had better go. This same professor once told me that statistics can easily reveal far more about the statistician than they do about the data being examined. And that it is *VERY* easy for a statistician to tell him/herself lies, without ever realizing it. It would seem that, when debating various statistical methods, it would be useful to remember the human factor of the statistician. It is very easy for statistics to be like Pooh and Piglet finding their own tracks. If I had not presented this professor with two such blatantly similar data sets, I don't know that he would have ever noticed that he was using a double standard. We perform double blind tests on test subjects, to check for biases, all the time, but we seldom perfrom double blind tests on the statistician to check him/her for biases. It has gotten to the point, in all research concerning firearms, that I don't have to actually read a study in order to figure out its conclusions. All I have to know is who wrote it. Everyone seems to find exactly what they expect to find. Some of Kleck's research is questionable, but Killias's, and Kellermans's is even more so. Everywhere I find people, even statistics professors, accepting logic on the topic of firearms that they would not accept on any other topic. Killias's data Homicide Suicide % Households All Gun All Gun with guns Australia 19.5 6.6 115.8 34.2 19.6 Belgium 18.5 8.7 231.5 24.5 16.6 Canada 26.0 8.4 139.4 44.4 29.1 England/Wales 6.7 0.8 86.1 3.8 4.7 Finland 29.6 7.4 253.5 54.3 23.2 France 12.5 5.5 223.0 49.3 22.6 Holland 11.8 2.7 117.2 2.8 1.9 N. Ireland 46.6 35.4 82.7 11.8 8.4 Norway 12.1 3.6 142.7 38.7 32.0 Scotland 16.3 1.1 105.1 6.9 4.7 Spain 13.7 3.8 64.5 4.5 13.1 Switzerland 11.7 4.6 244.5 57.4 27.2 U.S.A 75.9 44.6 124.0 72.8 48.0 West Germany 12.1 2.0 203.7 13.8 8.9 My "doctored" data Homicide Suicide % Households w/ 6AM-6PM 6PM-6AM 6AM-6PM 6PM-6AM multiple TV's Alaska 6.8 0.9 86.2 3.9 4.8 Arizona 46.7 35.5 82.8 11.9 8.5 Colorado 18.6 8.8 231.6 24.6 16.7 Florida 12.2 2.1 203.8 13.9 8.0 Kansas 26.1 8.5 139.5 44.5 29.2 Maine 29.7 7.5 253.6 54.4 23.3 Michigan 16.4 1.2 105.2 6.0 4.8 Montana 19.6 6.7 115.0 34.4 19.8 N. Carolina 12.2 3.7 142.8 38.8 32.1 Nevada 11.8 4.7 244.6 57.6 27.3 New York 75.0 44.7 124.1 72.9 48.1 Oregon 11.9 2.8 117.3 2.9 1.0 Rhode Island 13.8 3.9 64.6 4.6 13.2 Tennesee 12.6 5.6 223.1 49.4 22.7 Of course, the exact numbers don't matter. The idea is to create a data set which is fundamentally the same, but which is not easily identifiable as identical. I just took Killias's data, changed names of couintries to name of states, changed with total and with gun to daytime and nightime, and switched from guns to multiple TV's. Also key is the presentation. If you ask the question too forcefully, or in a challenging way, you'll put the person on their guard. ************************************************* In some ways, the emphasis on statistics is predictable. When a topic is subject to such intense emotion, it can be tempting to reduce the topic to numbers, in the hopes of getting some handle on it. But, this may be like the proverbial joke about losing one's keys in the alley, but looking for them in the living room because the light is better there. All of this statistical analysis is very interesting, but it focuses on those things which are easy to count. Which in turn means that it focuses on crime. However, gun control is not just about crime, it is also about politics. Pim does some interesting manipulations of data. Maybe they are valid, maybe they are not. But while he places a statistical magnifying glass on deaths resulting from the citizen ownership of firearms, he resorts to intuition when it comes to predicting how oppressive a government will become if it is unopposed by armed citizens. He says that a people should be able to trust their government. Perhaps, they should, but they should also be able to trust their neighbor. Based on Pim's data, it appears that we *can't* trust our neighbor. How, then, does one conclude that one can trust the government? Suddenly the discussion switches from hard ( if controversial )anaylsis of statistic methods, to cloud-shaped drawings, statements about what it means to be civilized, and accusations of paranoia. It may very well be that individual citizens malfunction in a different way than government does. Citizens kill 30,000 people a year. Governments can go for decades without killing anyone, and then kill 6-10 million over the course of 4 years. If a citizen homicide rate of 30,000 per year continued unabated for 200 years, it would only just match the low estimate of the Jews killed in the Holocaust. Since the citizen murder rate is less variable, it is more adaptable to statistical analysis. But, what kind of statistics could get a handle on the irregular fashion in which governments malfunction? Is the Holocaust an outlier, or is it on the normal curve for government behavior? How many times would one have to have a Holocaust before one decided that it wasn't an outlier? How many hundreds and thousands of years of data would you need in order to weight the "social cost" of gun ownership, or gun controls? Crime statistics are interesting, and useful, but they are the easy part of the gun control discussion. The other, more important part, is power politics. Statistics won't help us much here. ************************************************************************ Brian Delaney bdelan@farallon.com farallon != Me Any Society Which Requires Disclaimers Has Too Many Goddamn Lawyers ************************************************************************ -- John De Armond, WD4OQC, Marietta, GA jgd@dixie.com Performance Engineering Magazine. Email to me published at my sole discretion "If we let this leak, it'll just kill him" Clinton about Vince Foster -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "Disperse you Rebels - Damn you, throw down your Arms and disperse." -- Maj. John Pitcairn, Lexington, Massachusetts, April 19, 1775 ----END FORWARDED MESSAGE---- -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "Disperse you Rebels - Damn you, throw down your Arms and disperse." -- Maj. John Pitcairn, Lexington, Massachusetts, April 19, 1775 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: NRA Election Results -Forwarded Date: 28 May 1998 13:42:21 -0700 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Thu, 28 May 1998 13:34:44 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id PAA10732; Thu, 28 May 1998 15:32:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma010462; Thu May 28 15:30:45 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: BludyRed@aol.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list From the VA-RKBA list. I have been unable to verify Dennis Baron -------------------------------------------------------- Just in case you haven't seen it - here are the election results that I found on the web. Mack Elliott Elected for a three-year term ending in 2001: Mr Michael P Baker Ms Sue King Ms M Carol Bambury Mr Michael Lee Rep Bob Barr Mr John Milius Rep Bill Brewster Mr Jim Nicholson Mr David G. Coy Mr Oliver North Sen Larry Craig Mr Ted Nugent Mr William Dailey Mr Lance Olson Ms Sandra Froman Mr James Porter Ms Marion P Hammer Mr Harold Schroeder Mr Charlton Heston Mr Dwight Van Horn Ms Susan Howard Rep Harold Volkmer Mr Brian A Johnson Rep Don Young Mr David C Jones Elected for a one-year term ending in 1999: Mr Alfred Ockenfels Not elected: Mr Sanford Abrams Mr Michael Kindberg Mr Jerry Allen Mr Jeffery Knox Mr F E Bachhuber Mr John Krull Mr Michael Beko Mr Clarence Lovell Mr Ray Cahen Mr John Millay Mr James Church Mr Robley Moore Mr Allen Dapp Mr Larry Rankin Mr William Dominguez Mr Albert Ross Mr Howard Fezell Mr Al Rubega Mr Dan Fiora Mr Frank Sawberger Mr Richard Gardiner Mr Thomas Seefeldt Mr Arnold Gaunt Mr Robin Sharpless Mr Fred Griisser Mr Bill Steg'Kemper Mr Wesley Grogan Mr Bill Steigers Mr David Gross Mr Kim Stolfer Mr John Guest Mr John Thompson Mr Fred Gustafson Mr John Trentes Mr Don Henry Mr Franklin Volk Mr William Hunt Mr Glen Voorhees Mr Phillip Journey - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Handgun control at it in California -Forwarded Date: 28 May 1998 16:56:11 -0700 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Thu, 28 May 1998 16:45:32 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id SAA26478; Thu, 28 May 1998 18:43:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma026187; Thu May 28 18:40:59 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: pwatson@utdallas.edu Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list ---------- Forwarded message ---------- [BARF BAG ALERT!] Source: US Newswire Text of Handgun Control Inc. Letter to Calif. Candidates U.S. Newswire 27 May 17:43 Text of Handgun Control Inc. Letter to California Gubernatorial Candidates To: City Desk, Political Writer Contact: Luis Tolley of Handgun Control Inc., 310-441-3722 or 310-998-9960 (pager) WASHINGTON, May 27 /U.S. Newswire/ -- The following letter was sent to each of the major California gubernatorial candidates today to challenge them to support a 5-point program of gun control for California. For more information contact Luis Tolley, western regional director for Handgun Control Inc. at 310-441-3722 or 310-998-9960 (pager). ------ May 27, 1998 Dear Lt. Gov. Davis, Rep. Harman, Mr. Checchi and Attorney General Lungren: As the California primary approaches, the electorate continues to be concerned about one of the most important issues facing the state -- the issue of gun violence and its impact on our children and our communities. Despite the decline in crime rates in major cities like Los Angeles and San Francisco, the specter of gun violence and gun accidents continues to haunt California. The recent school shooting in an idyllic Oregon community demonstrates that children's access to guns can create a tragedy at any time, in any place. And, despite the overwhelming support of most Californians for additional, common-sense restrictions on access and use of firearms, the well-financed gun lobby continues to wield power in the California legislature. Therefore, this letter issues you a challenge. Several measures have been brought before the legislature in the last two sessions in an attempt to bring gun violence under control. Some are still pending, some are yet to be introduced as legislation. Taken together, these measures would provide an enormous additional margin of safety for Californians. We are asking that you publicly commit you support to the following five measures, and that you pledge to do everything in your power to ensure their passage should you be elected governor. 1. Saturday Night Specials. We ask that you pledge your support and your signature to S.B. 1500, which is currently before the legislature. This measure would establish quality and safety standards for handguns -- currently the nation's only unregulated consumer product -- and prohibit the manufacture of unsafe, easily concealed Saturday Night Specials which are so attractive to juvenile gang members. Because so many of these guns are manufactured in southern California, passing this bill would increase the safety of every American, even those who live outside California. 2. Child Safety Locks. A.B. 1124, which was vetoed by Gov. Wilson last year, would have required gun dealers to equip every firearm they sell with a child-safety lock to prevent children from shooting themselves or other kids. As you know, several local jurisdictions have passed this type of bill, but it only takes one disturbed child and one unlocked firearm to repeat the tragedies of Springfield and Jonesboro. 3. Semiautomatic Assault Weapons. AB 23, which is currently before the legislature, would prohibit the sale of all semiautomatic assault weapons, including the "copycat" versions of presently banned guns that are marketed by manufacturers to Californians and which were used against children in the infamous Stockton schoolyard massacre. 4. Rapid-Fire Ammunition Magazines. S.B. 1339, which is currently before the legislature, would prohibit the manufacture or sale of large, rapid-fire ammunition magazines which hold more than 19 rounds, like that used in the Springfield shooting. No state, including California, permits hunting animals with more than 10 rounds; why are we permitting humans to be the targets of these killing machines? 5. Gun Manufacturer Responsibility. Offer incentives for gun manufacturers to develop and sell "personalized guns" which could only be used by the authorized owners. Also encourage manufacturers to add magazine disconnect safeties, which would ensure that children are not injured by a "hidden" bullet in the gun chamber, and load indicators, which would show how many bullets are in a weapon, to all new products. California led the nation in insisting on cleaner automobiles; you now have a chance to demonstrate the same leadership in protecting children from guns. Again, these five measures, taken together, will challenge you as governor to do everything possible to protect more Californians from an early death, or a life in a wheelchair like mine. We are providing copies of this challenge to the media to publicize both our challenge and your response, and look forward very much to hearing from you at our Western Regional Office, 310-441-3722. Sincerely, /s/ James S. Brady ------ Handgun Control Inc., chaired by Sarah Brady, is the nation's largest citizen's gun control lobbying organization. Based in Washington, D.C., HCI works to enact stronger federal, state and local gun control laws, but does not seek to ban handguns. Founded in 1974, HCI has more than 400,000 members nationwide and works with local groups around the country to enact and protect reasonable gun control laws. More information about HCL and its affiliated organization, the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence, can be found on the HCI Web site at: http://www.handguncontrol.org. -0- /U.S. Newswire 202-347-2770/ 05/27 17:43 Copyright 1998, U.S. Newswire ====================================================================== NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. ====================================================================== Source: US Newswire State Officials Pledge to Protect Children from Gun Violence U.S. Newswire 28 May 16:26 State Officials Pledge to Protect Children from Gun Violence To: State Desk Contact: Luis Telley of Handgun Control Inc., 310-998-9960 LOS ANGELES, May 28 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Al Checchi, Rep. Jane Harman and Lt. Gov. Gray Davis today accepted a challenge from James Brady of Handgun Control Inc. and pledged support for comprehensive measures to protect children and our communities from gun violence. But Attorney General Dan Lungren did not respond to Brady's challenge. "Preventable gun violence claims too many of our kids," said Brady, who was shot during the assassination attempt on President Reagan. "We applaud Rep. Harman, Lt. Gov. Davis and Mr. Checchi for agreeing to protect children and our communities from gun violence and we wish Attorney General Lungren would show an equal commitment to stop gun violence. No child should end up in an early grave or in a wheelchair like mine because of gun violence that could have been prevented with responsible gun laws. "These are common sense measures to prevent gun violence," said Brady. "Why would anyone not favor trying to prevent children from shooting themselves or other kids by requiring child safety locks on guns and restricting semiautomatic assault weapons and Saturday night specials?" The five measures in Brady's challenge include: -- Banning unsafe, easily concealed Saturday night specials; -- Requiring child-safety locks to be sold with every gun; -- Strengthening the ban on semiautomatic assault weapons; -- Restricting rapid-fire ammunition magazines; -- Encouraging gun manufacturers to incorporate safety features on handguns. Last year, Gov. Wilson vetoed bills to ban Saturday night specials and require child-safety locks. Legislation to strengthen the ban on assault weapons, restrict rapid-fire ammunition magazines and encourage gun manufacturers to incorporate safety features on handguns are now pending in the legislature. ------ Handgun Control Inc., chaired by Sarah Brady, is the nation's largest citizens' gun control lobbying organization. Based in Washington, D.C., HCI works to enact stronger federal, state and local gun control laws, but does not seek to ban handguns. Founded in 1974, HCI has more than 400,000 members nationwide and works with local groups around the country to enact and protect reasonable gun control laws. More information about HCI and its affiliated organization, the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence, can be found on the website at http://www.handguncontrol.org. -0- /U.S. Newswire 202-347-2770/ 05/28 16:26 Copyright 1998, U.S. Newswire ====================================================================== NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. ====================================================================== - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Under the Gun 1/2 Date: 28 May 1998 19:46:00 -0700 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Federal Document Clearing House, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to ABC News. This transcript may not be copied, resold or redistributed in any media. Under the Gun Gun Use in US Inner Cities and Suburbs May 26, 1998 (This is an unedited, uncorrected transcript.) TED KOPPEL, ABC NEWS(VO) October--Pearl, Mississippi, three dead. December--West Paducah, Kentucky, three dead. March--Jonesboro, Arkansas, five dead. April--Edinboro, Pennsylvania, one dead. May--Springfield, Oregon, four dead. Small towns in America are learning what many in the inner cities have known for some time--kids plus guns spell disaster. But is it that simple? Some surprising answers from the inner city. JIM ROBINSON They talk about going to do something about guns. It is not guns. It's the condition of the neighborhoods. TED KOPPEL (VO) Meanwhile, those in the gun industry feel equally misunderstood. STEVE SANETTI, FIREARMS MANUFACTURER Get out of the city. Get out into where the rest of America is, where the people at this show come from, and you will see that firearms are used well over 99 percent of the time for legitimate purposes. TED KOPPEL (VO) Tonight, one nation, two worlds living under the gun. ANNOUNCER From ABC News, this is Nightline. Reporting from Washington, Ted Koppel. TED KOPPEL What may be the most difficult aspect of dealing with the subject of guns in America is the fact that we tend to listen only to those who share our point of view to begin with. In fact, as soon as most of us begin reading a newspaper column or watching a television piece on a gun-related story, we know, or at least we think we know immediately just where that person is coming from. A lot of you will do that tonight anyway, but if you'll pardon the expression, hold your fire. Just for the record, there are clearly a lot of yahoos on both sides of this issue. But it's important enough, if only because so many people are dying and getting hurt, that it deserves a suspension of judgment. There may actually be some common ground that we can all agree on and one such area has to do with the question of perspective. Our friend, David Turecamo, who spends several months at a time both videotaping and reporting his own stories, David has been examining this story from a couple of vantage points and we'll be looking at his work both tonight and tomorrow. It may be stating the obvious, but guns play a totally different role in the life of a hunter or a sportsman from that of a person living in, say, a drug-infested neighborhood of Philadelphia. Go to any gun show in the country and you'll hear just that, which doesn't mean it isn't true. But neither is it the entire story. DAVID TURECAMO, REPORTER If you want to understand one part of the gun culture in this country, start here, Las Vegas, at the annual SHOT Show, that's short for Shooting, Hunting and Outdoor Trade Show. 1ST GUN SHOW PARTICIPANT This is the largest collection of capitalists in the shooting sports industry. This really is a combination trade show, hootenanny, alumni reunion. DAVID TURECAMO (VO) It's a $30 billion industry that's more than just guns and ammo. It's outfits and accessories and gadgets, 'cause guns to these people are not only a way of life, they're a state of mind. JOHN RISDALL, MAGNUM RESEARCH When they look in the front of that barrel, that's it, there isn't any doubt about what's going on there and nobody's confused in the room about who is who and what's what at that point in time and you solve a lot of social arguments instantly by just looking at one of these. I mean you want to be the city in America that has no guns in any of the houses in the city? DAVID TURECAMO (VO) Marva Gaskins probably would. She understands another part of the gun culture because she lived it, here, in North Philadelphia, in a neighborhood they call the badlands. (interviewing) They came up onto the porch? MARVA GASKINS Yeah, came up here. Want to see? Watch? DAVID TURECAMO They shot into the house? MARVA GASKINS Yeah, see. DAVID TURECAMO (VO) In Philadelphia, the rate of gun murders has been going up steadily while the national average has gone down. (interviewing) That is a gunshot? MARVA GASKINS Yes. DAVID TURECAMO (VO) Valerie Wall's daughter was shot to death on her front steps. VALERIE WALL It's kind of hard, you know, having your child for 22 years, talking to her earlier that day and not being able to see her no more, you know? It's hard for me to come outside and sit on my step because if I look down, you know, I'm looking at my child laying down there. [ Continued In Next Message... ] - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Under the Gun 2/2 Date: 28 May 1998 19:46:00 -0700 [ ...Continued From Previous Message ] DAVID TURECAMO (VO) More than 300 people were killed by handguns in Philadelphia last year, most between the ages of 15 and 25. 1ST PHILADELPHIA RESIDENT I mean, you're not like solving nothing if you've got a gun and another person got a gun and they just want to like show it off. That's really all it is about around here, it's like showing off. 2ND PHILADELPHIA RESIDENT Recently up here at Broad and Erie a cop was sitting in his car writing out a report. A young guy went on a rampage shooting up the neighborhood up there and, you know, he shot the cop's tires out. So otherwise, see, they don't have, they don't even fear the cops. DAVID TURECAMO (VO) It's not just the hundreds that are killed every year, there were five in just one weekend last March, but it's the uncounted victims, the ones who are injured and maimed for life or left widowed and orphaned. NURSE I'd like to introduce you to Kadysha. DAVID TURECAMO (VO) It was in the emergency room at Children's Hospital that I met a child named Kadysha. At 16 years old, she'd been shot in the stomach by her boyfriend. KADEHSA I got shot on January 27th. I lost all my short intestines. I start school next week for like a half a day. I don't really want to go because I don't know how people are going to think of me, how people going to look at me and stuff. I can't hold much in my stomach. I can't drink a lot of fluid. Like regular people drink or eat, I can't. I think I came a long way and I feel much better. But I wish I could be back like I was. DAVID TURECAMO (VO) But this town's got a mayor who just won't give up. MAYOR ED RENDELL If I was in a boat and it was sinking and all I had was a little bucket I'd be, and it was an ocean liner, I'd be bailing out with that little bucket until the water came over my eyebrows. DAVID TURECAMO (VO) Ed Rendell decided he'd had enough and he was going to do something about it. Now, this is a guy who everybody agrees brought the city back from the brink of financial collapse. If he could fix the city's money problems, he was ready to take on something even bigger. 1ST WTXF-TV REPORTER The mayor is putting together the elements for a federal lawsuit against gun makers. DAVID TURECAMO (VO) It was last July when the local Fox station broke the story. 2ND WTXF-TV REPORTER Now sources say the mayor is planning something dramatic to deal with gun violence and is setting his sights on a big target--the gun manufacturers. DAVID TURECAMO (VO) Several major lawsuits against the gun industry have already failed. But Rendell's would follow the pattern of the tobacco case, claiming the industry has created a public nuisance by producing millions of weapons which they know are going into the hands of criminals. David Kairys drafted the complaint. DAVID KAIRYS It's a question of whether they are responsible in damages for the direct harm, the harm they know they do to the cities, and that can start with the 911 call or cleaning blood from the streets and it could extend to the extent of hospital costs or taking care of an orphaned child. DAVID TURECAMO (VO) So Ed Rendell planned to sue the gun manufacturers in the city where the second amendment, which guarantees citizens the right to bear arms, the city in which that guarantee was written. But by January, six months after the story broke, they were still deliberating. MAYOR ED RENDELL Right now only, no one has tapped me on the shoulder and said we'll join you and we'll absorb part of the costs. And I would have to spend to litigate this case millions of dollars of the taxpayers' money here in Philadelphia and I want to make sure that at least we have a chance. DAVID TURECAMO (VO) So this is really a story about two Americas. One is urban, where guns are about survival. One is suburban, where guns are about sport. One is white, the other is black. What I'd like to show you is the journey I've taken through both and it all begins on the streets where kids wear T-shirts in memory of the dead. (interviewing) Who was Kevin? 3RD PHILADELPHIA RESIDENT My dad. (Commercial Break) JIM ROBINSON Now, see this corner right here? Somebody gets shot here at night, at this corner right here. All they be doing there is shooting every night. It's one of the biggest drug corners there was. You can get anything you want back here. This here is shooters' alley. DAVID TURECAMO (VO) Jim Robertson and Patrick Peters are crisis counselors with an organization called the Philadelphia Anti-Drug/Anti-Violence Network. More to the point, they grew up on these streets and gave me a tour of their city. 1ST MALE ON THE STREET A .357 is the best handgun you can have out here, man. It's a big boy, it's a revolver and you gotta go for that hard s___ [message ended here] - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Forward -Forwarded Date: 29 May 1998 11:27:49 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id BAA18465; Thu, 21 May 1998 01:03:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma018372; Thu May 21 01:03:21 1998 Message-Id: <199805210233.TAA17128@proxy4.ba.best.com> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: edgar.suter@dipr.org Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Path: lobby01.news.aol.com!newstf02.news.aol.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-peer.g ip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.idt.net!netnews.com!newsfeed.concentric.ne t!global-news-master Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Organization: NEISIS! http://www.neisis.org/index.shtml Lines: 49 Message-ID: <356214F0.2545@neisis.org> Reply-To: bang@neisis.org NNTP-Posting-Host: ts004d47.chi-il.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) Bang Says: These antis ain't too bright. Read the press release below, then make sure you call the referenced woman and order the FREE speakers' kit. Just tell them you are a doctor or a preacher or something that makes you sound like a typical pablum slurper. Bang thinks it's a good idea for us to take advantage of some of the Joyce Foundation's money? Don't you??? Also, make sure you send a note to the e-mail address that is also listed. If they're gonna be stupid enough to advertize, we may as well give'em what they ask for!!!!!! Firearm Injury Prevention Speakers Kit Available 5/19/98 For Immediate Release: May 19, 1998 Contact Information: Lori Lovett American Academy of Pediatrics 141 Northwest Point Boulevard Elk Grove Village, Illinois 60007 Phone: 800-433-9016 Fax: 847-228-5097 Injury and death from firearms have become a public health problem for the nation's children. As part of its response, the American Academy of Pediatrics has prepared a speaker's kit, titled "Preventing Firearm Injury: Protecting Children." The kit is for pediatricians and other health care providers interested in presenting firearms injury prevention information to the public or to colleagues. It was developed with funds from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, the Joyce Foundation, the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation and the AAP Friends of Children Corporate Fund. The kit includes slides, a narrative, tips for organizing presentations, tips for dealing with challenging issues or opinions, a suggested reading list and more. The kit is free of charge and can be obtained by calling Lori Lovett at 800-433-9016, ext. 6779 or by e-mail at llovett@aap.org. Source: Join Together Online -- "...I don't believe gun owners have rights." (Sarah Brady, Chairman, Handgun Control, Incorporated, from the Hearst Newspapers Special Report, "Handguns in America" October 1997) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: Re: Get an early start on summer vacation! -Forwarded Date: 29 May 1998 14:56:47 -0600 On Wed, 27 May 1998, "S. Thompson" posted: > The schools have failed utterly in providing teachers who are even >proficient in English at a low high school level, much less any "esoteric" >knowledge, such as math, science, history, or arts. That needs to be the >first goal. If public school teachers were as proficient with firearms as >they are at writing sentences in English, I'd be terrified to live near a >school, much less send my child to one! While it may be theoretically >possible to train teachers to use firearms, I seriously doubt that it's >actually possible, at least in our current society. Actually, my first goal is to provide real choice to parents in where and how their children are educated. I was merely stating that there is no fundamental violation of civil rights to require firearm proficiency as part of a job. > Secondly, requiring proficiency in teaching skills and knowledge is a >reasonable requirement that violates no one's civil liberties. However, I >can find no definition of teacher that includes the duties of armed guard. >It is, of course, possible to change the definition and requirements for >teachers, but such a change can't be done abruptly. Of course it can. Whether or not it would be prudent to do so is another story. My boss can change my job description at will--or even eliminate my job altogether. I am free to work elsewhere if I don't like my employer's conditions of employement. With the exception that certain forms of discrimination are not allowed when the employer is "we the people" via our elected government, nothing else changes. > Also, as self-defense advocates we must be careful to be consistent. >Many people here have raised the issue of bans on knives being an >infringement of the religious rights of Sikhs, who are required to carry a >specific type of knife. If we are going to insist that the rights of Sikhs >be respected, should we not be equally vigilant to defend the rights of >Quakers and Buddhists whose religious beliefs generally preclude carrying >firearms? I would not suggest anyone be required to carry a gun nor to enter into nor remain in any employment that required them to do so. But to set job requirments to which some might object on religous grounds is not a violation of civil liberties. Those people should simply not choose that line of work. >If someone is a good teacher, I can see no reason to prevent him >from teaching whether he's a Sikh who wishes to carry a knife to school or >a Quaker who refuses to carry a firearm. And what do we do about teachers >who have physical handicaps that prevent them from handling a firearm >safely? I agree completely. But your arguments are pragmatic, not constitutional in nature. I'm not saying we should require all teachers to carry guns. I'm saying we could require them do so if we wanted. >Should a teacher who has an episode of serious depression that >requires involuntary hospitalization lose her job forever, even if she's >successfully treated? No one should lose their RKBA except while actually incarcerated or hospitalized. If someone has not been rehabilited enough to be trusted with a gun, we should have imposed a longer sentence because the fact is once they are on the street, if they want a gun, they can get one. > I don't like _ex post facto_ laws applied to gun owners and they're not >any better when applied to teachers. Agreed. Eliminate all ex-post-facto laws. > I don't know of any rational reason for refusing to learn CPR for kids, How about an irrational fear contact with bodily fluids? As a physician you know full well just how irrational that fear is--especially with a little training and some basic equipment at hand. 90% of those who would object to carrying a gun would do so over a similar irrational fear, I suspect. >And for some teachers, particularly those who >work with emotionally disturbed, or "at-risk" youth, carrying a firearm and >having all the students _know_ you carry it, could present a very real >danger of students ganging up on a teacher to get the gun. A very thoughtful argument. Once again a pragmatic one rather than a constitutional one. > I agree. We'd lose too many good teachers by requiring it. But I have no >problem with encouraging teachers to carry, and/or rewarding those who do. >(I suspect we're in far more agreement on this issue than it might appear...) Agreed. >absolute requirement. But we don't have that society today, and we're not >going to create it overnight. It's a worthy goal for people in all walks >of life. I just don't see any reason to single out teachers for such a >requirement. Why not bus drivers, doctors, bank tellers, or even postal >workers? Actually, bus drivers would another great area to encourage CCW at least so long as busses are run by the government. Any government employee who is generally entrusted with the safety of the public and is in a position to be a target for attack could, IMO, logically be required to CCW as part of their job. As a pragmatic matter I would not be in favor of requiring it. I would, however, never prohibit them from doing so and might even favor openly encouraging them. > And while I'm not accusing you of pettiness, I think some people in the >"gun rights community" who suggest such things may be being petty. >Teachers and their unions/organizations have long been among our most >potent and vocal opponents and in some of the suggestions I've seen to >"force" teachers to carry guns I've detected a vengefulness that I find >inappropriate, unbecoming, and potentially counterproductive. Not at all. I don't want to punish anyone. I'm thinking entirely of the safety of school children and how to improve that. Private schools who can set their own rules for both teachers and students would be the best thing. Allowing or encouraging teachers to become proficient in security and defense (armed as well as unarmed) is another. > I know that you reject force as a tool for social change and I suspect >you'd agree that educating people regarding the benefits of firearms >ownership is far preferable to passing unenforceable, _ex post facto_ laws >and regulations. I agree completely. But I do not view a change in job descriptions as ex-post-facto laws. When horse drawn wagons gave way to modern trucks, fire-fighters had to learn to drive those trucks. Tpying teachers have had to learn to teach "keyboarding" on computers. Teachers now have to operate video players rather than film projectors. School secretaries, counselors, and teachers alike have had to overcome fears and learn to use computers as a daily part of their routine. No one screamed ex-post-facto when the 60 year old teacher was required to begin submitting his grade reports via computer rather than the old paper forms. Once again, I agree with you on the pragmatic level. I simply maintain there would be no violation of rihgts to change job descriptions. -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error." -- Justice Robert H. Jackson - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Police and gun safety Date: 29 May 1998 15:57:49 -0600 >Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 09:12:57 -0700 >From: Howard Last >Organization: Howard Last, P.E. >X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win16; U) >Subject: Police and gun safety > >One way to increase gun safety is to take them away from the chiefs of police and=20 >police commissioners. I doubt if most of them know which end of the gun the bullet=20 >comes out of. > >Howard Last >[home page] >[Image] > > Top News Wis. Police Chief Kept Gun in Oven > > Sports MADISON, Wis. (AP) -- The police chief forgot he > had a gun in the oven. Then he decided to roast > Lotteries some turkey. > > International ``Shortly thereafter -- BOOM!'' police spokeswoman > Jeana Kerr said Wednesday. > National > The outcome for amateur chef and fulltime Chief > Washington Richard Williams was a voluntary one-day, unpaid > suspension for violating his department's firearms > Business policy. > > Wall Street Williams said the oven is one of the odd hiding > places at home where he puts his service revolver > Entertainment to reduce the risk of a burglar taking it. > > Health/Science On Sunday, he forgot he placed it in the oven the > day before. > Regional > After putting some turkey in the oven to roast at > 350 degrees, he laid down while waiting for it to > cook. > > That's when the gun went off, firing a round > through the gas stove and into a hallway banister. > > Williams and his Rottweiler, Chauncey, were home > alone. Neither was injured. > > ``I spent the next five or six hours thinking about > all the things that could've happened,'' Williams > said. > > After the holiday weekend, he sent Mayor Sue Bauman > a computer e-mail suggesting for the one-day > suspension for violating the firearms safety > policy, which demands officers be careful with > their weapons. > > =03AP-NY-05-27-98 2227EDT > > Copyright =A9 Associated Press. All rights reserved. > This material may not be published, broadcast, > rewritten, or redistributed. > > Home | Top of Page > >05/27 > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Thompson" Subject: The Salt Lake Tribune -- Opinion Date: 29 May 1998 19:08:11 -0600 http://www.sltrib.com/05291998/opinion/opinion.htm > Friday, May > 29, 1998 > > Olympic Gun Ban Is No-Brainer > At his monthly news conference Wednesday, Gov. Mike > Leavitt said that his public safety director, Craig > Dearden, had spoken ``persuasively'' last week about > banning firearms from the 2002 Winter Olympics in Utah. > Persuasively? The wonder is that there is any persuasion > necessary. ] > The prohibition of firearms from Olympic venues, > whether the person has a concealed-weapons permit or not, > is a no-brainer. Dearden made the case for such a ban to a > legislative interim committee last week, and even the Today's > Legislature's most vocal gun-rights advocate, Sen. Michael Headlines: > Waddoups, seemed to agree. > The dilemma is whether the state's > concealed-weapon-permit law, enacted in 1995 and subject to Reacting to > much deserved criticism ever since, makes it clear that Pakistan Tests > guns should be banned at the 2002 Winter Games venues. Sen. > Waddoups opined that the current law, which bans weapons in > ``secure'' areas, is sufficient, since Olympic venues, with > their airport-style metal detectors, would qualify as > secure areas. > That's one interpretation. But there has been so much > confusion over Utah's liberalized law that, as Dearden > argued, it makes sense for the Legislature to clarify that > Olympic venues are defined as ``secure facilities'' before > 2002 arrives and some overzealous permit holder seeks to > take a weapon into the opening ceremonies. > There must not be any doubt among the 20,000 or so > concealed-weapon permit holders in Utah that they cannot > attend an Olympic event with a firearm in tow. Any incident > at a Games checkpoint involving a firearm would prompt > legitimate security concerns, not to mention the resultant > embarrassment that it would bring to Utahns and their gun > culture. > Utahns attending the Games ought to be aware of the > security level at each venue. Nobody gets in without > waiting in line to proceed through a metal detector. > Obviously, anybody selfish enough to try to bring a > concealed weapon into a venue is going to be detained, > which would cause delays in moving spectators through the > checkpoint and, at more popular venues, could create a > crowd-control problem. > While Sen. Waddoups seems to understand that there is > no place for firearms at an Olympic venue, his notion that > Olympic security officers should provide a place for permit > holders to check their guns at the door is absurd. What > else is the Olympics supposed to provide, pet care for > spectators who want to check their dogs at the door? Utah > permit holders planning to attend the Olympics should just > do the obvious: leave their guns at home. > Of course, what seems obvious to most Utahns -- that > concealed weapons should not be allowed in schools or > churches or the state hospital -- is evidently not obvious > to gun-rights advocates. That's why Dearden spoke > ``persuasively'' when he made the case for clarifying > Utah's concealed-weapons law to make sure everyone knows > that guns and the Olympics don't mix. > > > ) Copyright 1998, The Salt Lake Tribune > All material found on Utah OnLine is copyrighted The Salt > Lake Tribune and associated news services. No material may > be reproduced or reused without explicit permission from > The Salt Lake Tribune. It IS a no-brainer, and the Tribune, as usual, is brain dead. A "secure facility" must be _completely_ sealed with metal detectors at each entrance. This is possible at an indoor venue, but certainly not at an outdoor one - at least not without huge expenditures of manpower and funds. A "secure facility" MUST provide safe storage for those who are legally carrying weapons, and accept liability for such storage. And perhaps most interesting, a "secure facility" by definition is someplace not open to the general public. That would seem to exclude the Olympics. Sarah - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Guns and Sin Date: 29 May 1998 22:00:53 -0600 WEEKEND JOURNAL --- Taste -- Review & Outlook: Guns and Sin The Wall Street Journal via Dow Jones One of the most amazing quirks of the human psyche is the ability of our most intelligent and well-meaning citizens to believe preposterous things -- that the earth's crust is running out of hydrocarbons, for example, or that you can pass a law taking money out of politics. Among the most durable of these heady notions is that violence is caused by guns. The notion is of course running especially strong just now, given the new fad among disturbed teens of shooting up your school. As best we can count, 19 people have been killed in school shootings at Bethel, Alaska (February 1997), Pearl, Miss. (October 1997), West Paducah, Ky. (December 1997), Jonesboro, Ark. (March 24), Edinboro, Pa. (April 24), Pomono, Calif. (April 28), Fayetteville, Tenn. (May 19), and most recently Springfield, Ore. (May 21). No one can doubt that something ghastly is afoot, not only in urban slums but across the American heartland. These social epidemics are not easy to account for. Urban riots erupted in the "long hot summers" of the 1960s, for example, but then went away without any dramatic improvements in the condition of ghettos or the end of the "two societies" alleged by the high-minded Kerner Commission. In the school shootings, common-sense remedies are no doubt appropriate -- an especially watchful eye on troubled students, for example, or holding adults responsible for the security of guns they own. But it would be mistaken to expect any miracle cure, except perhaps the ancient wisdom, "this too shall pass away." The silver bullet of gun control was deflected somewhat by the comments of Robert Ryker, father of the Jacob Ryker, the 17-year-old wrestler who was wounded in the Oregon attack but managed to tackle and subdue the 15-year-old gunman. "He heard a click, and he knew the rifle was out of ammo," the father said, "and he knew it was time to get the gun away." Mr. Ryker, a navy diver and member of the National Rifle Association, added, "I don't know about this hero business. All the boys did what they had to do to survive. They all did the right thing. When they had a chance to jump in, they did." The actions of Jacob Ryker and the comments of his father remind us that the heartland culture where guns are common also has powerful strengths. Independence, a sense of duty, courage and the like are found everywhere, of course, but are particularly strong in places open enough for shooting and hunting to flourish. This is something for sophisticates to ponder. Then too, even if it were possible to eradicate guns, this would not remove violence. Hong Kong, for example, is an enclave proud of its British heritage of tight gun laws. The weapon of choice in domestic violence is the chopper, or oversized oriental meat cleaver. So you read -- in two stories from last year -- of a trial suspended because jury members are unable to face crime-scene photos, or a schizophrenic hacking off his mother's head, throwing it from a fourth-floor balcony, and returning to the kitchen to wash the chopper as police arrive. As it happens, indeed, another society is just now experiencing a wave of school violence. In February, Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto expressed "grave concern" after the Japanese cabinet met to consider a series of knife attacks by teenagers, including the death of a teacher and a five-year-old girl. The "butterfly" knife, in which the blade snaps out from a double handle, was featured last year in a TV series by pop star and actor Takuya Kimura; it showed macho characters stabbing a table between spread fingers. The knife manufacturer's association felt it necessary to issue a statement saying, "It would be too simplistic to try to transform a debate on educational problems into a discussion of knives." In this media-drenched age, there may be something to the idea that dangerous fads are spread by TV dramas or door-to-door news coverage of tragedies. But more profoundly, what we should learn, or remember, is that human nature has the capacity for both good and evil. Indeed, the tendency among sophisticates to blame inanimate objects such as knives or guns is a kind of defense mechanism against the principle of personal responsibility. The heartland culture represented by Jacob and Robert Ryker, by contrast, better understands the reality that theologians describe as Original Sin. WSJviaNewsEDGE :PAGE: W9 :SUBJECT: INDD WSJ USA Copyright (c) 1998 Dow Jones and Company, Inc. Received by NewsEDGE/LAN: 5/29/98 2:06 AM ----End Forwarded Message(s)---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Prosecutor Appeals Horiuchi Dismissal Date: 29 May 1998 22:58:00 -0700 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- (Since we're quick to voice our outrage at blundering and treachorous politicians, we ought to voice our support to Denise Woodbury for trying to get a small measure of justice. -E.W.) BONNERS FERRY, Idaho (AP) -- A prosecutor (sic, should be 'prosecutrix') said Thursday he (sic) is appealing the dismissal of an involuntary manslaughter charge against the FBI sharpshooter who killed the wife of white separatist Randy Weaver. U.S. District Judge Edward Lodge dismissed state charges against Lon Horiuchi on May 14. He ruled that Horiuchi was acting within the scope of his federal authority and was honestly discharging his duties when he fired the shot that killed Vicki Weaver on Aug. 22, 1992, during the siege at Ruby Ridge. Lodge cited a constitutional clause that immunizes federal authorities from liability when acting within the scope of their jobs. Randy Weaver was acquitted of all charges in connection with the 11-day siege of his mountaintop cabin that also claimed the lives of his 14-year-old son and Deputy U.S. Marshal William Degan. Weaver urged Boundary County Prosecutor Denise Woodbury to seek reinstatement of the state charge. Woodbury accused Horiuchi of negligently firing the shot that killed Mrs. Weaver as she stood inside the cabin holding her infant daughter Elisheba on the second day of the standoff. Lodge said evidence indicated Horiuchi did not see Mrs. Weaver behind the door or in the doorway of the cabin when he fired at Weaver's friend Kevin Harris, who was ducking into the cabin. Harris was also cleared of all charges in connection with the standoff. The Justice Department decided in 1994 against prosecuting Horiuchi or any of his FBI superiors and reaffirmed the decision last year. A $10 million lawsuit filed by Harris against the federal government is pending. Weaver filed a similar lawsuit, which last year resulted in a $3.1 million settlement. AP-NY-05-28-98 2015EDT -- Nation In Distress http://www.involved.com/ewolfe/distress/ As we watch the complete moral decay and destruction of our society by those who refuse to see the consequences of their failed socialist policies, we are next forced to accept their more extreme, socialist policies as solutions. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Get an early start on summer vacation! Date: 30 May 1998 08:08:00 -0700 On Fri, 29 May 1998 Charles Hardy replied to Dr. Sarah Thompson: >>Should a teacher who has an episode of serious depression that >>requires involuntary hospitalization lose her job forever, even >>if she's successfully treated? >No one should lose their RKBA except while actually incarcerated or >hospitalized. If someone has not been rehabilited enough to be >trusted with a gun, we should have imposed a longer sentence because >the fact is once they are on the street, if they want a gun, they can >get one. Then I take it you disagree with the NRA's politically correct and federally implemented position that a person who has a record of felony conviction, or a psychiatric commitment, should be forever anathema and defenseless in the world because she has supposedly forfeited her "civil" rights? It does seem irresponsible to me to put someone out on the street but forbid him to defend himself, or even have means to hunt for meat. Of course the ex post facto "domestic violence" misdemeanor gun ban edicts to which you implicitly refer merely exacerbate this infringement on the unalienable right to life. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Thompson" Subject: NRA Election Results Date: 30 May 1998 14:10:59 -0600 Thanks to David Sagers for posting these results of the NRA elections. I checked with Arnold Gaunt, one of the unsuccessful candidates, and he has confirmed that these results are accurate. Not Relevant Anymore is now more appropriate than ever. Sarah Elected for a three-year term ending in 2001: Mr Michael P Baker Ms Sue King Ms M Carol Bambury Mr Michael Lee Rep Bob Barr Mr John Milius Rep Bill Brewster Mr Jim Nicholson Mr David G. Coy Mr Oliver North Sen Larry Craig Mr Ted Nugent Mr William Dailey Mr Lance Olson Ms Sandra Froman Mr James Porter Ms Marion P Hammer Mr Harold Schroeder Mr Charlton Heston Mr Dwight Van Horn Ms Susan Howard Rep Harold Volkmer Mr Brian A Johnson Rep Don Young Mr David C Jones Elected for a one-year term ending in 1999: Mr Alfred Ockenfels Not elected: Mr Sanford Abrams Mr Michael Kindberg Mr Jerry Allen Mr Jeffery Knox Mr F E Bachhuber Mr John Krull Mr Michael Beko Mr Clarence Lovell Mr Ray Cahen Mr John Millay Mr James Church Mr Robley Moore Mr Allen Dapp Mr Larry Rankin Mr William Dominguez Mr Albert Ross Mr Howard Fezell Mr Al Rubega Mr Dan Fiora Mr Frank Sawberger Mr Richard Gardiner Mr Thomas Seefeldt Mr Arnold Gaunt Mr Robin Sharpless Mr Fred Griisser Mr Bill Steg'Kemper Mr Wesley Grogan Mr Bill Steigers Mr David Gross Mr Kim Stolfer Mr John Guest Mr John Thompson Mr Fred Gustafson Mr John Trentes Mr Don Henry Mr Franklin Volk Mr William Hunt Mr Glen Voorhees Mr Phillip Journey - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: NJ Gun Seizure Update - 5-29-98 Date: 30 May 1998 18:42:00 -0700 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Parents insist son poses no threat to teacher, students Published in the Asbury Park Press 5/29/98 By AMY HUGHES and ARPIE NAKASHIAN MANAHAWKIN BUREAU LITTLE EGG HARBOR TOWNSHIP -- The 15-year-old boy charged with threatening his English teacher is under court order not to go outside without parental supervision, his parents said yesterday. "One of his friends called to talk to him yesterday and it was like somebody handed him a million dollars," said Denise Krawiec, the boy's mother. "He is isolated." The parents of Robert J. "R.J" Krawiec, the Pinelands Regional High School freshman who police say handed his English teacher a drawing of a person seen through the cross hairs of a rifle scope, said yesterday that their son is not a threat to his classmates or teachers. Authorities and the parents said the teacher was not depicted in the drawing. "This thing has been blown way out of proportion by what is going on in the rest of the country," said Robert J. Krawiec Sr. "For a rural center like this one, he ("RJ") is a normal boy pursuing normal interests like hunting, fishing and sports." Police charged the freshman with making terroristic threats and have said the boy has behavioral problems at school. Authorities said the seizure of his parents' 20 firearms and hundreds of rounds of ammunition from their home on Lake Saint Claire Drive was a precaution. The parents object to the seizure and the action against their son. "Other kids get 10-day suspensions and they are allowed to go back to school," said Mrs. Krawiec, referring to juveniles here and in Stafford Township who have returned to school after bringing live bullets to class. "But R.J. draws a picture and he is made out to look like Charles Manson." The English teacher, Sheila Sledden, informed guidance counselors about the drawing shown to her last Friday and contacted the police on her own, said Paul J. Carr, the attorney for the Pinelands Regional Board of Education. The school did not initiate the police investigation or the search of the boy's home, Carr said yesterday. "He ("RJ") is a quiet kid and the only time he strikes out is when he is pushed too hard," said the boy's mother. "Isn't everyone like that?" While the Krawiecs said their son, who is on the football and wrestling teams, has been involved in an "occasional fight" at school, he never initiates fights. "He is a big boy and people are picking on him," Denise Krawiec said. "He is tired of getting picked on and he is doing the best he can not to fight." Officials at the high school have said the freshman, who has not been at school since last Friday, has been disciplined appropriately. But, citing educational statutes that prohibit them from discussing pupil records and disciplinary actions, officials have declined to specify if Krawiec has been suspended. "In situations like this, where there is a threat or a perceived threat, it is always prudent to remove the student," Carr continued. Policy dictates that the student be referred to the child study team for evaluation, he added. Superintendent Clement A. Crea has the authority to suspend the student for up to 10 days. The board can extend that time or expel, but must first hold a hearing, Carr said. A decision to schedule a hearing is pending the results of separate investigations by the Ocean County prosecutor's office and the district, Carr said. "It is appropriate in situations like these that such a hearing take place," Carr said. "Our primary concern is for the safety of the students and staff within the district." The Krawiecs, who teach hunter education as a team for the state Division of Fish Game and Wildlife, legally own all the seized guns. The Krawiecs, reacting to reports that AK-47s were among the items seized, yesterday showed a police search warrant inventory listing what authorities confiscated. It was mostly collectibles and hunting gear. Weapons including, shotguns, rifles, handguns, BB guns, antiques, black powder guns were stored in three locked gun safes in the home. The collection also includes three old military rifles, a bolt-action 8mm Czech rifle and two SKS 7.62 rifles. One of the Russian-designed rifles was made in China in 1945 and is a collector's item from the Korean War. Most of the ammunition was birdshot and buckshot used for hunting. That ammunition was kept in a fourth safe. "We didn't lock it (the gun collection) up to keep it away from the kids, but, for everybody's safety," Denise Krawiec said. "I don't know who might be coming to the house." --- Asbury Park Press http://www.injersey.com/news/story/0,1210,80470,00.html?prev=0+ -- Nation In Distress http://www.involved.com/ewolfe/distress/ As we watch the complete moral decay and destruction of our society by those who refuse to see the consequences of their failed socialist policies, we are next forced to accept their more extreme, socialist policies as solutions. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Unarmed Dead Date: 30 May 1998 18:42:00 -0700 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- ignition-point@pobox.com, fratrum@netside.com, garden@netside.com In light of all the anti-gun blather being bleated on Pravda the last couple of weeks, here are some statistics which show what can, and eventually does, happen when a government makes it illegal to own firearms: The following 123 million ordinary human beings did NOT have guns: The 20th century's top nine megamurderers, as estimated in the book "Death by Government" unarmed dead Joseph Stalin 42,672,000 1929-1936 Mao Tse-Tung 37,828,000 1923-1976 Adolph Hitler 20,946,000 1933-1945 Chiang Kai-shek 10,214,000 1921-1948 Vladimir Lenin 4,017,000 1917-1924 Hideki Tojo 3,990,000 1937-1945 Pol Pot 2,397,000 1968-1987 Yayha Khan 1,500,000 1971 (Pakistan) Josip Tito 1,172,000 1941-1987 (Yugoslavia) - Monte -------------------------------------------------------------------- "Maybe freedom's just one of those things that you can't inherit." - Peter Bradford, in the film "Amerika" -------------------------------------------------------------------- The Idaho Observer http://proliberty.com/observer - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: Re: Get an early start on summer vacation! Date: 31 May 1998 00:48:44 -0600 On Sat, 30 May 98 08:08:00 -0700, scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) posted: >Then I take it you disagree with the NRA's politically correct and >federally implemented position that a person who has a record of felony >conviction, or a psychiatric commitment, should be forever anathema and >defenseless in the world because she has supposedly forfeited her >"civil" rights? Yes I do. The simple fact is if they are willing to obey the current law and not obtain a gun, they probably don't pose any threat anyway. Those who do pose a threat can and always will be able to easily buy, steal, or make weapons. -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by rule of construction be conceived to give the Congress the power to disarm the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some general pretense by a state legislature. But if in blind pursuit of inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be appealed to as a restraint on both." -- William Rawle, 1825; considered academically to be an expert commentator on the Constitution. He was offered the position of the first Attorney General of the United States, by President Washington. -