From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #38 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Friday, March 27 1998 Volume 02 : Number 038 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:50:05 -0700 From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: [jimdex@inconnect.com: LPU: Re: [Citizens Section - Wed March 25, 1998]] Forwarded from LPUtah in response to Sarah's citizen article... Jim Dexter says: - ----BEGIN FORWARDED MESSGE---- X-Authentication-Warning: mail.qsicorp.com: majordomo set sender to owner-lputah@mail.qsicorp.com using -f X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.0c (197) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:30:33 -0700 Subject: LPU: Re: [Citizens Section - Wed March 25, 1998] From: "Jim Dexter" To: lputah@qsicorp.com Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-lputah@mail.qsicorp.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: lputah@qsicorp.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Length: 259 Excellent article. My compliments to Dr.T. - ---------- LPUtah LPUtah -- This message sent via listserver "lputah@qsicorp.com" LPUtah -- All messages are the sole responsibility of the sender. LPUtah -- Support: Jim Elwell, email: elwell@inconnect.com LPUtah - ----END FORWARDED MESSAGE---- - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "Those who have long enjoyed such privileges as we enjoy forget in time that men have died to win them." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:01:33 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Re: Gun Control Poll -Forwarded Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id NAA03330; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:25:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:25:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma003134; Thu Mar 26 13:19:25 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: Eaco@terrasys.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: "R. Lunn" To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Gun Control Poll X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, Steve Miner wrote: > Abc news is running a poll whether more gun control would have prevented > the shooting in Jonesboro. 58.4% No 41.5% yes Here's the link. > http://www.abcnews.com/ As of 1:14pm EST No 57.9% Yes 42.0% Total Votes 11,333 Come on guys, we can do better than this DVC - -- Regards, >>Dick<< - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:17:54 -0700 From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: Guns in School According to Nancy Woodward in charge of pupil services for SL, if you own guns and expose your children to them you are adding to the potential for danger. [Image] [Local] [Image] [Image] [Image] Utah schools not immune from a tragedy [Image] In year, Granite District tallied 28 gun incidents [Image] Last updated 03/26/1998, 10:14 a.m. MT Related content: Listening parents can avert incidents By Jennifer Toomer-Cook and Marjorie Cortez Deseret News staff writers An Arkansas middle school shooting that left four students and one teacher dead occurred more than 1,000 miles away. But Utah school officials say such a tragedy could happen here, too — and without warning. "I don't think any of us are immune from those kinds of things," said Nancy Woodward, [Image] supervisor of pupil services for the Salt Lake Police arrested City School District. "There's always the Andrew Golden, 11, danger of the copycat action." after Wednesday's While FBI statistics show school violence slayings. nationwide decreased 12 percent from 1994 to [Image] 1996, according to a Scripps Howard News Service report, Utah schools are implementing safety nets where they can. School officials say they still need lower class sizes and more counselors and administrators to stem potential violence. In Jamesboro, Ark., Tuesday, students opened fire on classmates outside after another student pulled a fire alarm. Five were killed and 11 wounded. Two boys, ages 11 and 13, were arrested in the shooting and face charges in juvenile court. The older boy reportedly told friends "he had a lot of killing to do" after being jilted by a girl. In the Davis School District last month, a Syracuse Junior High student held classmates hostage at gunpoint in the school cafeteria. Police arrested a 14-year-old boy, later charged in juvenile court. No one was injured. Several other Utah students have been suspended for bringing guns to school, according to State Office of Education reports. The federal Safe Schools Act prohibits any weapons, even fakes, on school property. In 1996-97, Granite School District recorded 28 incidents involving guns, fake and real. Half involved middle school students; four involved elementary schoolchildren, the state office reported. Salt Lake City School District reported [Image] 17 incidents to the state, 10 in high school Mitchell Johnson and five in middle school, during the same time reportedly had "a period. Jordan School District reported four lot of killing to incidents, three in high school and one at a do." junior high. [Image] School violence usually results from weapons brought from home "for protection," a common excuse students give when they're caught, Woodward said. "If parents have guns in their home and are exposing children to guns . . . they're adding to the potential for danger," Woodward said. "These weapons have been used for mass murders. The kid didn't go out and buy the gun." Like the Arkansas student, the Syracuse boy told friends something major would happen at lunchtime. Syracuse principal James Schmidt says students didn't report the threat due to "inaccessibility of someone they trusted" and out of fear a teacher would be harmed in intervention attempts. Schmidt hopes a new school resource officer and an extra full-time counselor can help stave off future violence. He also makes himself more accessible to students and urges teachers to do the same. "It's more important for me to be a friend to them and talk to them than be a strict disciplinarian," he said. Stress in middle schools is compounded by student numbers and relatively few administrators and counselors. More adults could be placed in middle schools under a $9 million legislative appropriation for class-size reduction. A team of Jordan School District educators recently asked the school board to place more assistant principals in middle schools, as policy allows for only one per school regardless of enrollment. "This is a safety issue. This is the most critical issue facing the middle school," said Mike Ernsteen, counselor at South Jordan Middle School. "They (administrators) can't do that job if they're being overloaded by work and responsibilities. It hurts the students, and it makes the faculty feel less safe." In the Salt Lake City School District, one counselor serves 400 students due to funding shortfalls, Woodward said. With the high ratio, teachers and staff are urged to nurture relationships with students. But large class sizes can preclude teachers from doing so, said Bonnie Hansell, a teacher at Eastmont Middle School in the Jordan School District. "Some of our best students tell us they don't want to go to school. They don't feel like they belong. They don't feel connected. It's hard to feel connected in a classroom of 38-40 students," she said. Some districts seek additional law officers to help improve safety. Bountiful area junior high schools — Mueller Park, Bountiful, South Davis and Millcreek — have a grant to hire a school cop two hours daily and teach law-related education in Utah studies classes. Eleven of 13 district junior highs have police officers. Of the students taking officer-taught courses, 80 percent said they were more likely to ask for help from an officer and 70 percent reported they were less likely to participate in illegal acts. "I think students and parents and teachers are more willing to talk to the individual (police officer) because he's become a trusted friend," said Mueller Park principal Steve Mangel. Many Salt Lake elementary schools offer anger management classes patterned after a national model, Woodward said. Many school employees train to handle violent students. District officials are discussing implementing a comprehensive plan for major catastrophes, Woodward said. "We've concentrated on earthquakes and fire drills. These kinds of things are relatively new. We just don't have them yet." [Image] [Image] [Image] [Image] [Image] - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. When you give up that force, you are ruined." -- Patrick Henry, speaking to the Virginia convention for the ratification of the constitution on the necessity of the right to keep and bear arms. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:06:45 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Comments from BBC gun poll. Just looked at one of two gun polls being conducted now. One at ABCNEWS.com, and the other at http://news.bbc.co.uk. From the bbc poll I found the following comment that I think some of you will be interested in. Of course handguns should be banned. How many more children need to be sacrificed on the altar of a ridiculous piece of paper (the Constitution) by the self-serving high-priests of firearm worship (the NRA)? John Rabone, Japan Glad this "illuminated" individual is in Japan, lets hope he stays there! - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:05:36 -0700 From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: Re: Comments from BBC gun poll. On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, DAVID SAGERS posted: >Of course handguns should be banned. How many more children need >to be sacrificed on the altar of a ridiculous piece of paper (the >Constitution) by the self-serving high-priests of firearm worship (the >NRA)? >John Rabone, Japan I'm wondering what it is going to take for people to look beyond the tools used and start asking how to address the real problems. If these young, very disturbed people had chosen to burn 5 people to death and injure scores more by throwing a few molatov cocktails into (over) crowded classrooms, would anyone seriously be talking about the easy availability of gasoline and Pepsi bottles? Would we be asking how to keep dangerous items like matches out of the hands of teenagers? Would we conduct polls about whether or not gasoline and glass jars and rags should be banned? Or would we finally have the collective courage to look to the root problems? > >Glad this "illuminated" individual is in Japan, lets hope he stays there! > > >- > > - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. When you give up that force, you are ruined." -- Patrick Henry, speaking to the Virginia convention for the ratification of the constitution on the necessity of the right to keep and bear arms. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 21:11:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: LP RELEASE: Arkansas Shooting Guns save lives, says Libertarian Party -- despite tragic shooting at Arkansas school WASHINGTON, DC -- Tuesday's tragic massacre in an Arkansas school yard - -- where a pair of schoolboys brutally shot and killed five unsuspecting people -- won't cause the Libertarian Party to budge one inch on its 100% pro-gun position, the party's chairman said today. "The Libertarian Party will continue to fight any attempts to disarm law-abiding Americans -- despite efforts by political vultures to exploit this tragedy to advance their anti-gun agenda," said Steve Dasbach, national chairman of the Libertarian Party. "Guns not only save more lives than they cost, they are a fundamental bulwark in our defense of liberty. Any effort to restrict that right is not only unsafe, it's positively un-American," he said. "Of course, our hearts go out to the victims, survivors, and families of this tragedy. And, like all Americans, we hope that the perpetrators are punished appropriately for this horrific crime. But don't punish the Bill of Rights for the actions of two mentally ill juvenile criminals." Dasbach's comments came 24 hours after two young boys, age 11 and 13, opened fire on classmates and teachers in Jonesboro, Arkansas. Their barrage left four students and one teacher dead, and 11 others wounded. But aren't Libertarians somewhat leery of speaking out in favor of guns after such a tragedy? No, said Dasbach: "The time to defend the Second Amendment is not when it is easy, but when it is most difficult. That is when the danger is greatest that politicians -- perhaps well-meaning, but deluded -- will try to revoke our Second Amendment rights. "In fact, failing to speak out now would be to surrender to the demagogues. We know that numerous politicians will swoop in on the blood-stained victims of this tragedy, and use their needless deaths as an excuse to demand that Americans give up their rights in exchange for promised security. But the criminal behavior of young psychopaths should not be the basis of unconstitutional laws," he said. Besides, said Dasbach, the tragedy in Arkansas is an opportunity to remind Americans that guns actually save lives. "For every one innocent victim murdered in Arkansas, there are dozens of Americans who are alive today because of the defensive use of guns," he pointed out. * Research by Peter Hart Associates in 1980 found that 4% of American households reported defensive use of a handgun within the previous five years. * In 1991, Gary Kleck of Florida State University estimated defensive handgun use at between 850,000 and 2.5 million incidents per year. Every year an estimated 2,000-3,000 criminals are killed by armed citizens acting in self-defense. * As many as 75 lives are protected by a gun for every life lost to a gun, reported Kleck in "Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America" (New York: Aldine de Gruyter Books, 1991). * And a Cato Institute study this year found that violent crime rates dropped dramatically in the 24 states that have passed "concealed-carry" laws -- with murders dropping by 7.7%, rapes falling by 5.2%, and aggravated assaults reduced by 7.7%. "Libertarians know that guns are not the cause of America's rising tide of violence. In fact, they're one of the solutions," said Dasbach. "We believe the most effective way to stop human predators is by repealing the laws prohibiting concealed weapons. We also know that guns are the best defense an individual can have against crime, and that the laws banning guns accomplish only one thing -- victim disarmament." But Libertarians don't support gun rights merely as a deterrent to crime, said Dasbach. "We're also the only political party with the guts to publicly state, and forcefully defend, the true purpose of the Second Amendment," he said. "Ultimately, that purpose isn't about hunting, or collecting, or target shooting. It's not even about stopping criminals. It's about defending freedom against tyrants, be they foreign or domestic. "That's why the Founding Fathers enshrined the right to keep and bear arms into the Bill of Rights, and why Libertarians will continue to support that right," he said. "Yes, we mourn the victims in Arkansas whose lives were needlessly lost because of the actions of deranged criminals -- but we will never let criminals or opportunistic politicians blackmail us into surrendering our fundamental rights." - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 18:37:27 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Arkansas: From a friend -Forwarded Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id VAA18224; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:37:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:37:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma018027; Wed Mar 25 21:36:41 1998 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980325235024.008d05e0@inet.skillnet.com> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: recon@inet.skillnet.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: Richard Hartman To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Arkansas: From a friend X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list >From a friend.... - ----- When I was in Germany, at a business lunch, I was asked about all the gun violence, as all guns are banned in Germany except for the police and the military. My response was something like this. 1). More people died from Aids than guns. 2). More people died from Smoking than from guns ( 3 out of 4 of the people at the table were smoking). 3). More people died from automobile accidents than guns 4). More people were killed by drunk drivers than guns (4 out of 4 people at the table had a beer in front of them.) 5). More people died from old age than from guns. 6). Most of the gun related deaths are caused by drug dealings and gangs. 7). More people died from riding bicycles than from guns. 2 out of 4 cigarettes at the table got snuffed out prematurely, and 3 out of 4 beers did not get finished. Because our media has been sensationalizing firearm related deaths so much, they didn't realize the number of gun related deaths are really insignificant in proportion to the number of other causes of death, I believe the number is 0.1% of the total deaths are caused by firearms. If you listen to the media, firearms are the only cause of deaths. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 18:38:02 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: *Re: re the Arkansas situation -Forwarded Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id VAA18228; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:37:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:37:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma018035; Wed Mar 25 21:36:46 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: gonzalez@mcs.net Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: David Gonzalez To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: *Re: re the Arkansas situation X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, Richard Hartman wrote: > 2) Several of the news stories have pointed out that hunting and firearms > are quite common in that part of the country, and generally involve children > of that age. If ready access and familiarity with firearms is the "cause" of > these incidents, they should be happening weekly, even daily. They're not - > instead, they are incredibly rare. > > If you've thought of other discussion points, please share them. People > knee-jerk emotionally to these incidents, and we need to be both sensitive > and logical when helping them deal with that. In an ABC News interview I heard while driving into work this (Wednesday) morning, I heard an 11-year-old girl state (concerning the 13-year-old shooter), "Sure, I used to date him, but I stopped seeing him after he started using DRUGS!". (Query: what's an 11-year-old girl doing "dating" a 13-year-old boy, anyway?!) Looks as though his persecution complex/paranoia *wasn't* the result of "the gun-culture of the South" as much as it was induced by chemicals such as PCP (an animal tranquilizer---is Jonesboro a farming town?) and certain amphetamines. David M. Gonzalez, Troglodyte Wheeling, Illinois Replies/Abuse: gonzalez@mcs.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 98 05:21:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: BCC POLL: SHOULD GUNS BE BANNED IN AMERICA? - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Nancy To: gunflower@lgcy.com Date: Wednesday, March 25, 1998 8:52 PM You might want to pass this around the WAGC circuit.......... Nancy - ------------ < Start of Forwarded message via Prodigy Mail >> From: Jim Pullen Subject: BBC Poll Date: 03/25 Time: 04:00 PM Guys, Just been to the BBC news page and they have a poll set up asking the question "Should Handguns be banned in America". Votes so far over two thirds "yes". Can we change this? Tell your pro-gun friends on the net also. The URL is http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/talking_point/newsid_69000/69548.asp Also leave a comment if you wish. What [gives] the BBC - a left leaning foreign news organisation - the right to foist their anti-gun agenda on the US? I'm British and I'm boiling at the moment! Jim C&R FFL LIST E-mail: "subscribe c-r-ffl" to majordomo@shelfspace.com to be ADDED E-mail: "unsubscribe c-r-ffl" to majordomo@shelfspace.com to be REMOVED - ------ Home Page: http://www.shelfspace.com/~c-r-ffl/ To: lputah@qsicorp.com On NPR this mornin, I heard the principal of the Arkansas school where the shootings occurred say that the school had a "zero tolerance" policy against kids bringing weapons to school and that all the kids knew about it. Lot of good that did! ;-) Governor Leavitt also said the Arkansas shootings pointed out the need to have laws restricting weapons in schools, although when asked he conceded that such laws would not have prevented the Arkansas shootings. But at least we can say we did something! ;-) Scooter! - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:33:12 -0700 From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: Mikey doesn't like guns From today's Tribune: [Image] [Image] [Image] Friday, March 27, 1998 [Image] [Image] Leavitt Wants Guns Banned at School BY MATTHEW BROWN THE ASSOCIATED PRESS Gov. Mike Leavitt says the shooting deaths this week in an Arkansas school yard signal Utah's need to ban even legally permitted weapons from schools. ``There's a commentary that could be made on the importance of having our schools gun-free,'' Leavitt said Thursday. ``I have supported and will continue to support legislation that would allow our schools to be gun-free zones. That would include, in my mind, even those who would have a permit to carry a gun.'' Such a law wouldn't have prevented the tragedy in Jonesboro, Ark., where four students and a teacher were killed and 11 others wounded Tuesday in a fusillade of bullets fired onto the playground. An 11-year-old boy and a 13-year-old boy are in custody. The weapons were believed to have been stolen from the grandfather of one of the accused. But Leavitt said the Arkansas shooting indicates that giving youths any type of access to firearms in today's culture that glamorizes violence is ``a recipe for tragedy.'' During his monthly news conference, the governor said he was disappointed that lawmakers in the recent session didn't pass legislation that would allow churches, private property owners and schools to ban adults with concealed-weapons permits from carrying firearms on the property. Three bills that would have imposed one or more of those bans were filed for the 1998 session. But Senate President Lane Beattie, R-West Bountiful, pulled his bill and the other two proposals died after legislative legal counsel advised that existing state policies prohibiting state workers from carrying concealed weapons and banning hidden guns on the University of Utah campus were unconstitutional. While schools and universities can impose rules banning guns, attorneys wrote, possession of a valid concealed-firearms permit overrides those rules. The issue first surfaced when the Legislature made it easier to obtain a concealed-weapons permit in 1995. Permit holders are banned from carrying a gun inside prisons or past the security checkpoints at airports, but the law said otherwise that the permits would be ``valid throughout the state without restriction.'' Ironically, Utah and Arkansas recently signed an agreement that allows residents with permits from either state to legally carry hidden firearms in both states. Joe Venus of the Utah Gun Rights Association, which opposes restrictions to the state's concealed-carry laws, said Arkansas law prohibits concealed-weapon permit holders from taking their guns onto school property. ``Arkansas law does what the governor wants Utah law to do, and that didn't prevent a problem,'' Venus said. ``I don't know why the governor wants to beat this like a cheap drum. . . . If you take a look at the situation, if I were a teacher, I would want to carry a gun in case one of those nitwit students carries a gun to school.'' He said permit holders are law-abiding citizens and not the problem. Also, under Utah law, people younger than 18 cannot buy or legally possess firearms. Leavitt agrees legislation is not the only solution to avoiding youth violence, which he said is also ``driven by a culture that glorifies in many cases that kind of [violent] activity. ``It's a combination of things,'' Leavitt said. ``No law will ultimately prevent that. But we ought to have the laws because if it can prevent one [tragedy], it's worth it.'' [Image] [Friday Navigation Bar] [Image] [Image] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- © Copyright 1998, The Salt Lake Tribune All material found on Utah OnLine is copyrighted The Salt Lake Tribune and associated news services. No material may be reproduced or reused without explicit permission from The Salt Lake Tribune. -------------------------------------------------- Contact The Salt Lake Tribune or Utah OnLine by clicking here. - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop was landed in my country, I never would lay down my arms -- never -- never - - NEVER! You cannot conquer America." -- William Pitt, Earl of Chatham Speech in the House of Lords November 18, 1777 - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:34:38 -0700 From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: Fear Mongering on CCW permits From today's tribune. A letter with hard facts refuting the claim that Texas CCW permit holders are twice as likely to be arrested as a non CCW holder really needs to be written. If anyone has good sources but doesn't want to write a letter for some reason, pass them along and I'll write one. [Image] [Image] [Image] Friday, March 27, 1998 [Image] [Image] Gun Law Lets Felons Slip Through Cracks BY TOM ZOELLNER THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE A Utah resident could be convicted of a violent crime and still legally carry a concealed weapon for years. And now, convicted criminals may slip through the cracks with their guns for even longer under the terms of a bill signed into law Tuesday by Gov. Mike Leavitt. The state Department of Public Safety (DPS) does not regularly cross-reference its computer database of 17,000 gun-permit holders with the names of citizens who recently have been arrested or convicted of felony crimes. Typically, the only time criminal history is checked is during the application process and at the time of renewal, which used to be once every two years. Now, under the law Leavitt signed, a gun owner will have to undergo this digital frisking every five years. Under state law, a weapons permit can be taken away if the holder is convicted of drunken driving, drug possession or any felony crime. There has been some political resistance within the DPS to writing a computer program that automatically would ``flag'' the names of permit holders who get charged with crimes. Even gun advocates want DPS to have the software. ``The technology exists. The reason they don't do it is dollars,'' said Elwood Powell, chairman of the Utah Sport Shooting Council, which is a powerful lobbying force on Capitol Hill. ``If somebody has been convicted of a felony, they ought to have their rights jerked.'' Continuous computer monitoring would eliminate the need for honest gun owners to come in for a license renewal, which now costs $5, said Duane Fuller of the Utah State Rifle and Pistol Association. DPS Commissioner Craig Dearden said he doesn't have the estimated $20,000 it would take to interface his database of all concealed-weapons carriers with all of Utah's state and justice courts. ``It's a pretty big network that would have to be set up, and it's fairly costly,'' he said. Nobody can say for sure just how many convicted criminals are today walking around with legally concealed weapons. But one thing is for sure: The state rarely revokes permits once they have been granted. Just 53 permit holders out of more than 17,000 have had their privileges taken away since 1995 -- the year that state gun laws were liberalized to allow most adult citizens with a clean record to pack hidden weaponry. Applicants must submit a photograph of themselves, allow themselves to be fingerprinted, take an eight-hour instruction class, provide two letters of recommendation and be 21 or older to get the permit. Utah residency is not required. DPS now has only limited means of knowing about the bad behavior of a gun carrier after they get the license. Local police agencies can take the initiative and report the names of perpetrators who have concealed-weapons permits. But this is rarely done, unless the crime is specifically related to a gun. ``We don't check for a concealed-weapons permit unless they happen to be carrying a concealed weapon at the time of arrest,'' said Steve Chapman, assistant chief of the Salt Lake City Police Department. ``We haven't flagged it here.'' Detectives typically don't ask criminal suspects if they have a permit, said Sgt. Dana Orgill of the Salt Lake City police domestic-violence unit. It is just not a question that comes up in the average interview, he said. A complaint from a citizen is one of the only other methods the DPS would have of knowing if a gun carrier has been misbehaving before the mandatory license renewal. At the time of each license renewal, the person's name is checked through the Utah Computer Criminal History and the National Crime Information Center for any arrests or convictions, said Todd Peterson, the supervisor of the firearms section of the state Bureau of Criminal Investigation. He conceded the monitoring system is imperfect. ``There could be some people arrested who the police don't know is a concealed-weapons permit holder and we don't find out about it until renewal,'' he said. The potential to fly under the radar could be even greater if the person was convicted of a crime in another state, he said. It is rare in Utah for a citizen to lose his license for a firearms-related offense. It happened only four times in 1997. In each case, the gun-carrier brandished a weapon during a traffic dispute, said Peterson. In 1996, one man lost his license for pointing his gun at somebody during an aggravated assault, and another man's license was revoked after he attemtped to commit suicide with his concealed weapon. There have been just six revocations in the current year -- all for non-gun-related problems, such as driving under the influence of alcohol. This is especially alarming because concealed-weapons permit holders in Texas have been shown to have arrest rates as high as twice that of the general population, according to health-research specialist Sue Glick of the anti-gun Violence Policy Center in Washington. ``There's no way to tell when you license an individual whether they'll commit a crime or not,'' she said. A recent VPC study of Florida's concealed-weapons laws concluded that ``hundreds of license holders had committed a wide variety of crimes -- including assault with intent to murder, kidnap- ping/attempted kidnapping, and shooting with intent to wound -- either before obtaining the Florida concealed-weapons license or after licensure.'' Like Utah, 30 other states have a ``shall-issue'' policy toward concealed-weapons permit seekers, who do not need to prove any compelling need to carry a hidden firearm. A clean criminal record is all most adults need to get the permit. But unlike Utah, many of the other ``shall-issue'' states have instituted monthly cross-checks between lists of gun-carriers and convicted criminals, Glick said. [Image] [Friday Navigation Bar] [Image] [Image] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- © Copyright 1998, The Salt Lake Tribune All material found on Utah OnLine is copyrighted The Salt Lake Tribune and associated news services. No material may be reproduced or reused without explicit permission from The Salt Lake Tribune. -------------------------------------------------- Contact The Salt Lake Tribune or Utah OnLine by clicking here. - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop was landed in my country, I never would lay down my arms -- never -- never - - NEVER! You cannot conquer America." -- William Pitt, Earl of Chatham Speech in the House of Lords November 18, 1777 - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:53:26 -0500 From: "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises Inc and Shire.Net" Subject: re: Mikey doesn't like guns (Was: FW: [Fwd: The Real Lesson of the School Shootings - WSJ]) Maybe we need MIKEY to read this. We need to draw much attention to this article and point out Mikey's flaws!!! Make him eat crow! Chad >Envelope-to: chad@pengar.com >From: Dan Gosselin < >To: "'chad@pengar.com'" < >Subject: FW: [Fwd: The Real Lesson of the School Shootings - WSJ] >Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:06:17 -0500 >MIME-Version: 1.0 > > > >Subject: The Real Lesson of the School Shootings - WSJ >Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:05:57 -0500 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=3D"---- =3D_NextPart_001_01BD5991.E6F8B1B0" > >http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/SB89095813222556500.htm > > =20 >=20 < =3D0 ) { document.write(""); } //-->=20 < > In this Section: =20 <World-Wide =20 <Asia <Europe <The Americas=20 <Economy <Earnings =46ocus=20 <Politics & Policy <Weather <Editorial Page=20 <Leisure & Arts=20 <Voices =20 < <Table of Contents Related Sites: =20 <Barron's Online <SmartMoney Interactive =20 <Careers.wsj.com =20 <Business Directory =20 <Publications Library =20 <WSJ.COM Radio > Hear top news of the hour with <RealPlayer 5.0 > Search/Archives: =20 <Search =20 <Briefing Books =20 <Quotes =20 <Past Editions =20 <Journal Links =20 <Special Reports Resources: =20 <Help =20 <New =46eatures =20 <Your Account =20 <Contact Us =20 <Glossary Advertising: =20 <Advertisers =20 <E-Mart March 27, 1998 <=20 > > > The Real Lesson > Of the School Shootings > > >By JOHN R. LOTT JR. > >=20 > >This week's horrific shootings in Arkansas have, predictably, spurred calls for more gun control. But it's worth noting that the shootings occurred in one of the few places in Arkansas where possessing a gun is illegal. Arkansas, Kentucky and Mississippi--the three states that have had deadly shootings in public schools over the past half-year--all allow law-abiding adults to carry concealed handgun for self-protection, except in public schools. Indeed, federal law generally prohibits guns within 1,000 feet of a school. > >=20 > >Gun prohibitionists concede that banning guns around schools has not quite worked as intended--but their response has been to call for more regulations of guns. Yet what might appear to be the most obvious policy may actually cost lives. When gun-control laws are passed, it is law-abiding citizens, not would-be criminals, who adhere to them. Obviously the police cannot be everywhere, so these laws risk creating situations in which the good guys cannot defend themselves from the bad ones. > >=20 > >Consider a fact hardly mentioned during the massive news coverage of the October 1997 shooting spree at a high school in Pearl, Miss.: An assistant principal retrieved a gun from his car and physically immobilized the gunman for a full 41/2 minutes while waiting for the police to arrive. The gunman had already fatally shot two students (after earlier stabbing his mother to death). Who knows how many lives the assistant principal saved by his prompt response? > >=20 > >Allowing teachers and other law-abiding adults to carry concealed handguns in schools would not only make it easier to stop shootings in progress. It could also help deter shootings from ever occurring. Twenty-five or more years ago in Israel, terrorists would pull out machine guns in malls and fire away at civilians. However, with expanded concealed-handgun use by Israeli citizens, terrorists soon found the ordinary people around them pulling pistols on them. Suffice it to say, terrorists in Israel no longer engage in such public shootings--they have switched to bombing, a tactic that doesn't allow the intended victims to respond. > >=20 > >The one recent shooting of schoolchildren in Israel further illustrates these points. On March 13, 1997, seven seventh- and eighth-grade Israeli girls were shot to death by a Jordanian soldier while they visited Jordan's so-called Island of Peace. The Los Angeles Times reports that the Israelis had "complied with Jordanian requests to leave their weapons behind when they entered the border enclave. Otherwise, they might have been able to stop the shooting, several parents said." > >=20 > >Together with my colleague William Landes, I have studied multiple-victim public shootings in the U.S. from 1977 to 1995. These were incidents in which at least two people were killed or injured in a public place; to focus on the type of shooting seen in Arkansas we excluded shootings that were the byproduct of another crime, such as robbery. The U.S. averaged 21 such shootings per year, with an average of 1.8 people killed and 2.7 wounded in each one. > >=20 > >We examined a whole range of different gun laws as well as other methods of deterrence, such as the death penalty. However, only one policy succeeded in reducing deaths and injuries from these shootings--allowing law-abiding citizens to carry concealed handguns. > >=20 > >The effect of "shall-issue" concealed handgun laws--which give adults the right to carry concealed handguns if they do not have a criminal record or a history of significant mental illness--has been dramatic. Thirty-one states now have such laws. When states passed them during the 19 years we studied, the number of multiple-victim public shootings declined by 84%. Deaths from these shootings plummeted on average by 90%, injuries by 82%. Higher arrest rates and increased use of the death penalty slightly reduced the incidence of these events, but the effects were never statistically significant. > >=20 > >With over 19,600 people murdered in 1996, those killed in multiple victim public shootings account for fewer than 0.2% of the total. Yet these are surely the murders that attract national as well as international attention, often for days after the attack. Victims recount their feelings of utter helplessness as a gunman methodically shoots his cowering prey. > >=20 > >Unfortunately, much of the public policy debate is driven by lopsided coverage of gun use. Tragic events like those in Arkansas receive massive news coverage, as they should, but discussions of the 2.5 million times each year that people use guns defensively--including cases in which public shootings are stopped before they happen--are ignored. Dramatic stories of mothers who prevented their children from being kidnapped by carjackers seldom even make the local news. > >=20 > >Attempts to outlaw guns from schools, no matter how well meaning, have backfired. Instead of making schools safe for children, we have made them safe for those intent on harming our children. Current school policies fire teachers who even accidentally bring otherwise legal concealed handguns to school. We might consider reversing this policy and begin rewarding teachers who take on the responsibility to help protect children. > >=20 > >Mr. Lott, a fellow at the University of Chicago School of Law, is the author of "More Guns, Less Crime," forthcoming in early May from the University of Chicago Press. > >=20 <Return to top of page Copyright =A9 1998 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved. =3D0 ) { s +=3D "<';= =20 s +=3D ""; document.write( s ); } //--> =20 > - --------------------------------------------------------------- Chad Leigh Pengar Enterprises, Inc and Shire.Net chad@pengar.com info@pengar.com info@shire.net =46ull service WWW services from just space to complete sites. Low cost virtual servers. DB integration. Tango. Email forwarding -- Permanent Email Addresses. POP3 and IMAP Email Accounts. mailto:info@shire.net for any of these. - --------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #38 **********************************