From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #117 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Wednesday, December 23 1998 Volume 02 : Number 117 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:48:17 -0700 From: "David Sagers" Subject: [Fwd: Fw: [Fwd: A Miserable Scenario Part 2]] Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:14:40 -0700 Received: from mail.sisna.com by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA22810; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:01:13 -0700 Message-Id: <199812170501.WAA22810@wvc> Received: from rserzen.sisna.com [209.210.178.101] by mail.sisna.com (SMTPD32-4.06) id A27BDF0120; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:11:23 MST Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 01:58:25 -0700 From: Roger Serzen <"rserzen@sisna.com"@sisna.com> Reply-To: "rserzen@sisna.com"@sisna.com Organization: Sunrise Medical X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win95; U) To: DAVID SAGERS Subject: [Fwd: Fw: [Fwd: A Miserable Scenario Part 2]] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from mailhost.pioneer-net.com [206.58.81.4] by mail.sisna.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-4.06) id AADB6D0021E; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:53:31 MST Received: from obsidian (rp28.pioneer-net.com [206.58.81.43]) by mailhost.pioneer-net.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA32741 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:59:31 -0800 Message-ID: <004401be28b8$6ffb8280$2b513ace@obsidian> From: "obsidian" To: "spearmon" Subject: Fw: [Fwd: A Miserable Scenario Part 2] Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:53:41 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_CD9A8F4C.73127F7F" - --=_CD9A8F4C.73127F7F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline part 2 - -----Original Message----- From: Ron Zepp =20 Date: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 7:22 PM Subject: [Fwd: A Miserable Scenario Part 2] > > - --=_CD9A8F4C.73127F7F Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from mail.tignet.com ([199.231.128.3]) by mta2.mailsrvcs.net (InterMail v03.02.04 118 119) with ESMTP id <19981216004553.LPAZ815@mail.tignet.com> for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:45:53 -0600 Received: from ron.tampabay.rr.com (dt0d3nb3.tampabay.rr.com [24.92.171.179]) by mail.tignet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id UAA03825 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:44:49 -0500 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19981216004946.006b33dc@mail.tignet.com> X-Sender: atozstuff-atoz@mail.tignet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:49:46 -0500 To: zeppr@gte.net From: atozstuff Subject: A Miserable Scenario Part 2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline >Return-Path: >Mailing-List: ListBot mailing list contact membercouncil-help@listbot.com >Delivered-To: mailing list membercouncil@listbot.com >From: REBarnes50@aol.com >Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:35:38 EST >To: membercouncil@listbot.com >Subject: A Miserable Scenario Part 2 > >Member Council of Tampa Bay - http://home.tampabay.rr.com/membercouncil > >The following has been forwarded for your reading. I almost said "your >reading pleasure". It should push a lot of your buttons....Part 2 >Robert >Florida >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >"One fellow I knew disagreed. He said we ought to use our guns now and=20 >stand up to the government. Said that the colonists had fought for = their=20 >freedom when the British tried to disarm them at Lexington and Concord.=20= >Well, he and a lot of others died in what your history books call the = 'Tax=20 >Revolt of 2001,' but son, it wasn't the revolt that caused the repeal = of=20 >the Second Amendment like your history book says. The Second Amendment = was=20 >already gone long before they ever repealed it. The rest of us thought = we=20 >were doing the right thing by waiting. I hope to God we were right." >"You see, Thomas. It isn't government that makes a man free. In the = end,=20 >governments always do just the opposite. They gobble up freedom like = hungry=20 >pigs. You have to have laws to keep the worst in men under control, but = at=20 >the same time the people have to have guns, too, in order to keep the=20 >government itself under control. In our country, the people were = supposed=20 >to be the final authority of the law, but that was a long time ago. = Once=20 >the guns were gone, there was no reason for those who run the government = to=20 >give a damn about laws and constitutional rights and such. They just = did=20 >what they pleased and anyone who spoke out...well, I'm getting ahead = of=20 >myself." >"It took a long time to collect up all the millions of firearms that = were=20 >in private hands. The government created a whole new agency to see to = it.=20 >There were rewards for turning your friends in, too. Drug dealers and=20 >murderers were set free after two or three years in prison, but possession= =20 >of a gun would get you mandatory life behind bars with no parole. >"I don't know how they found out about me, probably knew I'd been a = hunter=20 >all those years, or maybe somebody turned me in. They picked me up on=20 >suspicion and took me down to the federal building." >"Son, those guys did everything they could think of to me. Kept me = locked=20 >up in this little room for hours, no food, no water. They kept coming = in,=20 >asking me where the guns were. 'What guns?' I said. Whenever I'd doze = off,=20 >they'd come crashing in, yelling and hollering. I got to where I = didn't=20 >know which end was up. I'd say I wanted my lawyer and they'd laugh.=20 >'Lawyers are for criminals', they said. 'You'll get a lawyer after we = get=20 >the guns.' What's so funny is, I know they thought they were doing the=20 >right thing. >They were fighting crime!" >"When I got home I found Ruth sitting in the middle of the living room=20 >floor, crying her eyes out. The house was a shambles. While I was down=20 >there, they'd come out and took our house apart. Didn't need a search=20 >warrant, they said. National emergency! Gun crisis! Your grandma tried = to=20 >call our preacher and they ripped the phone off the wall. Told her = that=20 >they'd go easy on me if she just told them where I kept my guns." The = old=20 >man laughed. "She told them to go to hell." He stared into the distance = for=20 >a moment as his laughter faded. >"They wouldn't tell her about me, where I was or anything, that whole = time.=20 > She said that she'd thought I was dead. She never got over that day, = and=20 >she died the next December." >"They've been watching me ever since, off and on. I guess there's not = much=20 >for them to do anymore, now that all the guns are gone. Plenty of time = to=20 >watch one foolish old man." He paused. Beside him, the boy stared at = the=20 >stone beneath his feet. >"Anyway, I figure that, one day, America will come to her senses. Our = men=20 >will need those guns and they'll be ready. We cleaned them and sealed = them=20 >up good; they'll last for years. Maybe it won't be in your lifetime,=20 >Thomas. Maybe one day you'll be sitting here with your son or = grandson.=20 >Tell him about me, boy. Tell him about the way I said America used to = be."=20 >The old man stood, his bad leg shaking unsteadily beneath him. >"You see the way this stone points? You follow that line one hundred = feet=20 >down the hill and you'll find a big round rock. It looks like it's = buried=20 >solid, but one man with a good prybar can lift it, and there's a = concrete=20 >tunnel right under there that goes back into the hill." >The old man stood, watching as the sun eased toward the ridge, coloring = the=20 >sky and the world red. Below them, the river still splashed among the=20 >stones, as it had for a million years. It's still going, the old man=20 >thought. There'll be someone left to carry on for me when I'm gone. It = was=20 >harder to walk back. He felt old and purposeless now, and it would be=20 >easier, he knew, to give in to that aching heaviness in his left lung = that=20 >had begun to trouble him more and more. Damn cigarettes, he thought. = His=20 >leg hurt, and the boy silently came up beside him and supported him as = they=20 >started down the last mile toward the house. How quiet he walks, the = old=20 >man thought. He's learned well. >It was almost dark when the boy walked in. His father looked up from = his=20 >paper. "Did you and your granddad have a nice walk?" >"Yes," the boy answered, opening the refrigerator. "You can call Agent=20 >Goodwin tomorrow. Gramps finally showed me where it is." > > >Editor's note: "Sundown at Coffin Rock" is a work of fiction. Any=20 >similarity >to actual events or to actual people, living or dead, remains to be seen. = - - >Mark Pixler, Editor > > >______________________________________________________________________ >To unsubscribe, write to membercouncil-unsubscribe@listbot.com >Start Your Own FREE Email List at http://www.listbot.com/ > > - --=_CD9A8F4C.73127F7F-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 08:58:57 -0700 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: Impeachment Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:17:13 -0700 Received: from kendaco.telebyte.com by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA26609; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:03:39 -0700 Received: (from mail@localhost) by kendaco.telebyte.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA23954; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 13:15:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: kendaco.telebyte.com: mail set sender to NRA-ILA-EVC-owner@kendaco.telebyte.com using -f Received: from pop02.globecomm.net (pop02.globecomm.net [206.253.129.186]) by kendaco.telebyte.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA23951 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 13:14:59 -0800 Received: from default (tam-fl6-07.ix.netcom.com [199.183.198.199]) by pop02.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id QAA07356; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 16:14:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000d01be2c5d$c3bee1c0$c7c6b7c7@default> From: "Charles E. Hoskinson" To: "NRA-ILA-EVC" , "membercouncil" Subject: Impeachment Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 16:14:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: NRA-ILA-EVC@kendaco.telebyte.com Sender: NRA-ILA-EVC-owner@kendaco.telebyte.com Precedence: list If you would like to have a say on Impeachment, take a brief stop and vote at: http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1998/12/20/impeach.opeds/index.html Let's all have a say on the subject. Chuck Hoskinson FL-11 ****Owning a firearm is a RIGHT, not a privilege**** The NRA ILA EVC closed mailing list is NOT an official list of the NRA, but is offered as a tool by Jim Kendall (WA-1st District EVC) and Telebyte NW. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send an email request to NRA-1st@telebyte.com *********** Victory 1998! *************** - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 08:11:10 -0700 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: "The Day Democracy Died" Received: from dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com ([206.214.98.1]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:48:24 -0700 Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id TAA09527; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 19:45:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from jac-fl3-21.ix.netcom.com(204.31.245.117) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma009487; Mon Dec 21 19:45:12 1998 Message-ID: <367EFB07.99CB9EA3@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:51:03 -0500 From: "Michael L. Martin" Reply-To: gatorjag@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) To: Harsha Ramayya , James Wheat , Jay Meyer , Pat Glenn Morningstar , David Sagers Subject: "The Day Democracy Died" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Forwarded by a friend. A sad statement for us all: The Day Democracy Died by Tom Hewes, Col. USMC ( ret.) Democracy got sick the day the President of the United States, William Jefferson Clinton, decided he was more important than the principles embodied in the Constitution. That was the day he chose to lie in a civil deposition in the Paula Jones case rather than tell the truth as required by his oath of office. That was the day he first used the machinery of his office to suborn perjury. Democracy developed a fever the day the President turned the spin doctors, Carville, Blumenthal, and Lewis, loose on the body politic with the lie that a vast right wing conspiracy, abetted by a hostile media, were out to destroy him. That was also the day he knowingly lied to his aides and his cabinet, and then sent them forth to spread the lie. Democracy was placed on the serious list the day the President looked us all in the eye and said, "I did not have sex with that woman." That was the day he and his "flackeys" claimed our constitutional doctor, Independent Counsel Starr, was guilty of malpractice. Democracy writhed in pain the day the Democrat party decided that party was more important than principle. That was the day the radical feminists prostituted themselves to stay in bed with the President. That was also the day the media found the patient's ratings were down, and abandoned her cause. Democracy screamed in agony the day it discovered that her medical chart was being filled out with results of a poll taken among a mere one thousand carefully selected people. That was the day most Americans decided they didn't want to hear any more about illness in the body politic. Democracy's condition further worsened the day the sixteen Democrat members of the House Judiciary Committee savaged the Independent Counsel rather than determine the validity of the charges against the President. That was the day African - -Americans ironically decided that access to power was more important than the rule of law. Democracy slipped onto the critical list the day the Congress of the United States ruled that lying under oath is acceptable behavior for the highest Law enforcement officer in the land. That was the day the President of the United States became a law unto himself. Democracy died the day she found out that the majority of Americans were too ignorant, too busy, or too bored to care whether she lived or died. That was the same day the first American Caesar was born. Where were you the day democracy died? - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:30:12 -0700 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: L&J: The ACLU on Gun Control Received: from cor.oz.cc.utah.edu ([155.99.2.2]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:56:07 -0700 Received: from localhost (shb4391@localhost) by cor.oz.cc.utah.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA24477 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:54:04 -0700 (MST) X-Received: from locke.adm.by.net (mail@locke.adm.by.net [209.195.180.3]) by gos.oz.cc.utah.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA03903 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:03:36 -0700 (MST) X-Received: from majordom by locke.adm.by.net with local (Exim 2.05 #1) id 0zsXUz-0002fD-00 (Debian); Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:29:41 -0500 X-Received: from centurion.flash.net [209.30.0.22] by locke.adm.by.net with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 0zsXUy-0002f8-00 (Debian); Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:29:40 -0500 X-Received: from mailgw.flash.net (deimos.flash.net [209.30.0.43]) by centurion.flash.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA05039 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:29:37 -0600 (CST) X-Received: from echo.flash.net (echo.flash.net [209.30.0.40]) by mailgw.flash.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA20518 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:29:37 -0600 (CST) X-Received: from ot_55 ([207.252.26.3]) by echo.flash.net (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA10182 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:29:15 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <367FF29F.7FC5@flash.net> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:27:27 -0500 From: "Mark A. Smith" Reply-To: msmith01@flash.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (WinNT; I) To: Mark Subject: L&J: The ACLU on Gun Control Sender: owner-liberty-and-justice@mailbox.by.net Precedence: list ReSent-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:53:58 -0700 (MST) ReSent-From: Scott Bergeson ReSent-To: David Sagers ReSent-Subject: L&J: The ACLU on Gun Control ReSent-Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_4B1CF09A.3E5F323C" - --=_4B1CF09A.3E5F323C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline http://www.aclu.org/library/aaguns.html - --=_4B1CF09A.3E5F323C Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="aaguns.html" [Image] Gun Control "Why doesn't the ACLU support an individual's unlimited right to keep and bear arms?" BACKGROUND The ACLU has often been criticized for "ignoring the Second Amendment" and refusing to fight for the individual's right to own a gun or other weapons. This issue, however, has not been ignored by the ACLU. The national board has in fact debated and discussed the civil liberties aspects of the Second Amendment many times. We believe that the constitutional right to bear arms is primarily a collective one, intended mainly to protect the right of the states to maintain militias to assure their own freedom and security against the central government. In today's world, that idea is somewhat anachronistic and in any case would require weapons much more powerful than handguns or hunting rifles. The ACLU therefore believes that the Second Amendment does not confer an unlimited right upon individuals to own guns or other weapons nor does it prohibit reasonable regulation of gun ownership, such as licensing and registration. IN BRIEF The national ACLU is neutral on the issue of gun control. We believe that the Constitution contains no barriers to reasonable regulations of gun ownership. If we can license and register cars, we can license and register guns. Most opponents of gun control concede that the Second Amendment certainly does not guarantee an individual's right to own bazookas, missiles or nuclear warheads. Yet these, like rifles, pistols and even submachine guns, are arms. The question therefore is not whether to restrict arms ownership, but how much to restrict it. If that is a question left open by the Constitution, then it is a question for Congress to decide. ACLU POLICY "The ACLU agrees with the Supreme Court's long-standing interpretation of the Second Amendment [as set forth in the 1939 case, U.S. v. Miller] that the individual's right to bear arms applies only to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia. Except for lawful police and military purposes, the possession of weapons by individuals is not constitutionally protected. Therefore, there is no constitutional impediment to the regulation of firearms." --Policy #47 ARGUMENTS, FACTS, QUOTES "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." The Second Amendment to the Constitution "Since the Second Amendment. . . applies only to the right of the State to maintain a militia and not to the individual's right to bear arms, there can be no serious claim to any express constitutional right to possess a firearm." U.S. v. Warin (6th Circuit, 1976) Unless the Constitution protects the individual's right to own all kinds of arms, there is no principled way to oppose reasonable restrictions on handguns, Uzis or semi-automatic rifles. If indeed the Second Amendment provides an absolute, constitutional protection for the right to bear arms in order to preserve the power of the people to resist government tyranny, then it must allow individuals to possess bazookas, torpedoes, SCUD missiles and even nuclear warheads, for they, like handguns, rifles and M-16s, are arms. Moreover, it is hard to imagine any serious resistance to the military without such arms. Yet few, if any, would argue that the Second Amendment gives individuals the unlimited right to own any weapons they please. But as soon as we allow governmental regulation of any weapons, we have broken the dam of Constitutional protection. Once that dam is broken, we are not talking about whether the government can constitutionally restrict arms, but rather what constitutes a reasonable restriction. The 1939 case U.S. v. Miller is the only modern case in which the Supreme Court has addressed this issue. A unanimous Court ruled that the Second Amendment must be interpreted as intending to guarantee the states' rights to maintain and train a militia. "In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a shotgun having a barrel of less than 18 inches in length at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument," the Court said. In subsequent years, the Court has refused to address the issue. It routinely denies cert. to almost all Second Amendment cases. In 1983, for example, it let stand a 7th Circuit decision upholding an ordinance in Morton Grove, Illinois, which banned possession of handguns within its borders. The case, Quilici v. Morton Grove 695 F.2d 261 (7th Cir. 1982), cert. denied 464 U.S. 863 (1983), is considered by many to be the most important modern gun control case. [Image] Copyright 1996, The American Civil Liberties Union - --=_4B1CF09A.3E5F323C-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 20:15:22 -0700 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: STOP BATF INTIMIDATION STOP BATF INTIMIDATION The follwing leter was delivered to a lawabiding firearms owner by the BATF. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS WASHINGTON, D.C. 20226 NOTICE OF UNLICENSED FIREARMS DEALING VIOLATION Recently, your participation in the transfer of firearms has come to the attention of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF). ATF is charged with the responsibility of enforcing the Federal firearms laws and, as part of that duty, we must license persons lawfully dealing in firearms as well as prevent unlicensed dealing. We seek the cooperative efforts of the general public in fulfilling this mandate. Your firearms activity may bring you within the definition of a dealer in firearms as defined by the Gun Control Act of 1968, as amended. This definition (18 U.S.C. section 921 (a) (21) (c)) includes =93a person who devotes time, attention and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of Firearms . . .=94 To willfully deal in firearms without a license issued by AFT would place you in violation of 18 U.S.C. section 922(a)(1)(A). A sentence of not more than 5 years=92 imprisonment and/or a $5,000 fine may be imposed on anyone found guilty of dealing in firearms without a license. Attached to this notice is an ATF F 7, Application for License Under 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, Firearms. If you conduct firearms activities on a scale that would bring you within the scope of the above definition of a =93dealer,=94 then you need to apply for a Federal firearms license. Please feel free to contact the nearest ATF office for assistance. Sincerely yours R. W. Haynes Special Agent in Charge Served By: (signature unreadable) Date: Location: I acknowledge receipt of this notice. (Blacked out) Date: - ------------------------------------------- The following suggested reply to this attempt to intimidate you is written by Past Second Vice President of NRA Albert C. Ross. - ------------------------------------------ Special Agent, ATF Department of Treasury Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Washington, D.C. 20226 Dear _________: I wish to acknowledge the letter recently delivered to me by Special Agent (name) on (date) at (location). In your letter you advised that my alleged firearms activity may bring me within the definition of a dealer in firearms as defined by the Gun Control Act of 1968, as amended. You stated that this definition as set out in 18 U.S.C. section 922 (a)(21)(c) includes =93a person who devotes time, attention and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms. . .=94 . First, I wish to state that it has never been my intention to violate any state or federal law or ever remotely engage in conduct that could be interpreted as such. Also, it has been my understanding that a Federal Firearms License was not available to people who are engaging in a hobby (such as me) or who desire to operate out of their home (also such as me) due to the ill-advised restrictions as to city zoning issues even when these issues are of no concern to the city. I therefore, would ask for clarification of some of the items in your recent letter. These questions are asked in order that I might keep my activities within the bounds of lawful conduct as well as to continue the exercise of my lawful rights as a United States citizen. My questions are as follows: (1) You stated that 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(21)(c) =93includes . . .=94 Are there other definitions within the United States Code in addition to 18 U. S. C. Section 921(a)(21)(c) that define =93a dealer in firearms=94? If so, what are they? (2) The subject definition refers to a person who, =93devotes time, attention and labor. . .=94 Have there been judicial interpretations or does the ATF have a regulation or policy as to what constitutes the devotion of =93time,=94 =93attention=94 or =93lab= or=94 as used herein? How much time devoted to firearms transactions vs. What else I do on a daily or weekly basis? Also, what is meant by =93labor?=94 Is that my personal labor or volunteer labor of friends who assist me or labor I hire and pay for? (3) The quoted section of the United States Code defines who may be a =93dealer=94 in firearms and then used the term of =93dealing=94 in firearms within the definition. Have there been judicial interpretations or does the ATF have a regulation or policy as to what constitutes =93dealing=94 in firearms? Is this based on the number of firearms sold or traded within a given time? If so what is applicable here? (4) Is there a judicial interpretation or ATF regulation that defines what is =93a regular course of trade or business=94 as used in the United States Code definition? If so, what are the citations or ATF regulations? (5) Is there a judicial interpretation or ATF regulation that defines =93principal objective=94 as used in the United States Code definition? If so, what are the citations or ATF regulations? In my particular case, I would submit that my =93principal objective=94 is to engage in social intercourse with my friends and other people with a common interest in firearms. It seems incredible to me that this activity would be unlawful. (6) Are there judicial interpretations or ATF regulations that define =93livelihood and profit=94 as used in the subject United States Code section? If so, what are the citations or the ATF regulations? Is there any ATF policy that separates =93livelihood=94 from =93profit=94 as used in the United States Code section? Also, does the term =93profit=94 take into consideration the time, transportation costs, and other expenses that would be chargeable to a firearms =93business=94 when determining whether a =93profit=94 has been made? Who has the burden of proof on this point, the ATF to show that a =93profit and livelihood=94 was being made, or me to show that such was not the case? Are there any court cases that clarify this issue? In my particular case, I certainly am not earning my =93livelihood=94 from ant firearm sales, nor am I making any =93profit=94 from any such sales if you take into consideration the normal costs and expenses of overhead along with a reasonable charge for my personal time devoted to the activity. Does my failure to earn a =93livelihood and profit=94 exempt me from the provisions of 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(21)(c)? (7) Finally, the last paragraph of your letter advised that if =93you conduct firearms activities on a scale. . . . =93 What =93scale=94 is being referred to here? I would appreciate clarification as to just what =93scale=94 would bring me =93within the scope of the above definition.=94 I would respectfully ask for answers to these questions so that I may faithfully comply with the laws and regulations you cited. Also, I would ask that you consider this letter as a request under either the Open Records Act or Freedom of Information Request for information relating to all cases or prosecutions initiated by the ATF charging anyone with a violation of 18U.S.C. section 921(a)(21)(c) or 18U.S.C. section 922(a)(1)(A) as of the date of this letter. Sincerely yours, (should be sent certified mail) You should keep a copy of all correspondence and send copies to your pro-firearms organizations NRA, GOA, CCRKBA, SAF, Firearms Hardcore, ect. and your Congressman and US Senators. You are also requested to vote for Albert C. Ross for the NRA Board of directors elections and his friends all of whom are running under the Second Amendment Action slate. See the following web sites. www.2ndamendment.net www.nealknox.com/ SECOND AMENDMENT ACTION - Candidates for NRA Board Michael J. Beko Sally Drews Brodbeck William Dominguez Howard J. Fezell Dr. Daniel B. Fiora David M. Gross Fred E. Gustafson Robert E. Hodgdon Michael S. Kindberg Albert C. Ross Frank H. Sawberger Thomas L. Seefeldt John H. Trentes Glen I. Voorhees Please feel free to forward this information to all your friends. Thanks. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 09:15:15 -0700 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: STOP BATF INTIMIDATION Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 19:07:14 -0700 Received: from listbox.com by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA29127; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 18:53:36 -0700 Received: (qmail 13698 invoked by uid 516); 23 Dec 1998 02:04:29 -0000 Delivered-To: rkba-co@majordomo.pobox.com Received: (qmail 13337 invoked from network); 23 Dec 1998 02:03:45 -0000 Received: from pm06sm.pmm.cw.net (208.159.126.155) by majordomo.pobox.com with SMTP; 23 Dec 1998 02:03:45 -0000 Received: from hawk (usr3-dialup59.mix2.Atlanta.cw.net [166.55.51.187]) by PM06SM.PMM.CW.NET (PMDF V5.2-29 #33510) with SMTP id <0F4E00H4KA3L5E@PM06SM.PMM.CW.NET>; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 02:01:01 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 20:40:32 -0500 From: Weldon Clark Subject: STOP BATF INTIMIDATION To: Weldon Clark Message-id: <000e01be2e17$b4f2f760$bb3337a6@hawk> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.0810.800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.0810.800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-rkba-co.new@majordomo.pobox.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rkba-co@majordomo.pobox.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Posted to rkba-co by Weldon Clark - ----------------------- STOP BATF INTIMIDATION The follwing leter was delivered to a lawabiding firearms owner by the BATF. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS WASHINGTON, D.C. 20226 NOTICE OF UNLICENSED FIREARMS DEALING VIOLATION Recently, your participation in the transfer of firearms has come to the attention of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF). ATF is charged with the responsibility of enforcing the Federal firearms laws and, as part of that duty, we must license persons lawfully dealing in firearms as well as prevent unlicensed dealing. We seek the cooperative efforts of the general public in fulfilling this mandate. Your firearms activity may bring you within the definition of a dealer in firearms as defined by the Gun Control Act of 1968, as amended. This definition (18 U.S.C. section 921 (a) (21) (c)) includes =F4a person who devotes time, attention and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of Firearms . . .=F6 To willfully deal in firearms without a license issued by AFT would place you in violation of 18 U.S.C. section 922(a)(1)(A). A sentence of not more than 5 years=C6 imprisonment and/or a $5,000 fine may be imposed on anyone found guilty of dealing in firearms without a license. Attached to this notice is an ATF F 7, Application for License Under 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, Firearms. If you conduct firearms activities on a scale that would bring you within the scope of the above definition of a =F4dealer,=F6 then you need to apply for a Federal firearms license. Please feel free to contact the nearest ATF office for assistance. Sincerely yours R. W. Haynes Special Agent in Charge Served By: (signature unreadable) Date: Location: I acknowledge receipt of this notice. (Blacked out) Date: - ------------------------------------------- The following suggested reply to this attempt to intimidate you is written by Past Second Vice President of NRA Albert C. Ross. - ------------------------------------------ Special Agent, ATF Department of Treasury Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Washington, D.C. 20226 Dear _________: I wish to acknowledge the letter recently delivered to me by Special Agent (name) on (date) at (location). In your letter you advised that my alleged firearms activity may bring me within the definition of a dealer in firearms as defined by the Gun Control Act of 1968, as amended. You stated that this definition as set out in 18 U.S.C. section 922 (a)(21)(c) includes =F4a person who devotes time, attention and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms. . .=F6 . First, I wish to state that it has never been my intention to violate any state or federal law or ever remotely engage in conduct that could be interpreted as such. Also, it has been my understanding that a Federal Firearms License was not available to people who are engaging in a hobby (such as me) or who desire to operate out of their home (also such as me) due to the ill-advised restrictions as to city zoning issues even when these issues are of no concern to the city. I therefore, would ask for clarification of some of the items in your recent letter. These questions are asked in order that I might keep my activities within the bounds of lawful conduct as well as to continue the exercise of my lawful rights as a United States citizen. My questions are as follows: (1) You stated that 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(21)(c) =F4includes . . .=F6 Are there other definitions within the United States Code in addition to 18 U. S. C. Section 921(a)(21)(c) that define =F4a dealer in firearms=F6? If so, what are they? (2) The subject definition refers to a person who, =F4devotes time, attention and labor. . .=F6 Have there been judicial interpretations or does the ATF have a regulation or policy as to what constitutes the devotion of =F4time,=F6 =F4attention=F6 or = =F4labor=F6 as used herein? How much time devoted to firearms transactions vs. What else I do on a daily or weekly basis? Also, what is meant by =F4labor?=F6 Is that my personal labor or volunteer labor of friends who assist me or labor I hire and pay for? (3) The quoted section of the United States Code defines who may be a =F4dealer=F6 in firearms and then used the term of =F4dealing=F6 in firearms within the definition. Have there been judicial interpretations or does the ATF have a regulation or policy as to what constitutes =F4dealing=F6 in firearms? Is this based on the number of firearms sold or traded within a given time? If so what is applicable here? (4) Is there a judicial interpretation or ATF regulation that defines what is =F4a regular course of trade or business=F6 as used in the United States Code definition? If so, what are the citations or ATF regulations? (5) Is there a judicial interpretation or ATF regulation that defines =F4principal objective=F6 as used in the United States Code definition? If so, what are the citations or ATF regulations? In my particular case, I would submit that my =F4principal objective=F6 is to engage in social intercourse with my friends and other people with a common interest in firearms. It seems incredible to me that this activity would be unlawful. (6) Are there judicial interpretations or ATF regulations that define =F4livelihood and profit=F6 as used in the subject United States Code section? If so, what are the citations or the ATF regulations? Is there any ATF policy that separates =F4livelihood=F6 from =F4profit=F6 as used in the United States Code section? Also, does the term =F4profit=F6 take into consideration the time, transportation costs, and other expenses that would be chargeable to a firearms =F4business=F6 when determining whether a =F4profit=F6 has been made? Who has the burden of proof on this point, the ATF to show that a =F4profit and livelihood=F6 was being made, or me to show that such was not the case? Are there any court cases that clarify this issue? In my particular case, I certainly am not earning my =F4livelihood=F6 from ant firearm sales, nor am I making any =F4profit=F6 from any such sales if you take into consideration the normal costs and expenses of overhead along with a reasonable charge for my personal time devoted to the activity. Does my failure to earn a =F4livelihood and profit=F6 exempt me from the provisions of 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(21)(c)? (7) Finally, the last paragraph of your letter advised that if =F4you conduct firearms activities on a scale. . . . =F4 What =F4scale=F6 is being referred to here? I would appreciate clarification as to just what =F4scale=F6 would bring me =F4within the scope of the above definition.=F6 I would respectfully ask for answers to these questions so that I may faithfully comply with the laws and regulations you cited. Also, I would ask that you consider this letter as a request under either the Open Records Act or Freedom of Information Request for information relating to all cases or prosecutions initiated by the ATF charging anyone with a violation of 18U.S.C. section 921(a)(21)(c) or 18U.S.C. section 922(a)(1)(A) as of the date of this letter. Sincerely yours, (should be sent certified mail) You should keep a copy of all correspondence and send copies to your pro-firearms organizations NRA, GOA, CCRKBA, SAF, Firearms Hardcore, ect. and your Congressman and US Senators. You are also requested to vote for Albert C. Ross for the NRA Board of directors elections and his friends all of whom are running under the Second Amendment Action slate. See the following web sites. www.2ndamendment.net www.nealknox.com/ SECOND AMENDMENT ACTION - Candidates for NRA Board Michael J. Beko Sally Drews Brodbeck William Dominguez Howard J. Fezell Dr. Daniel B. Fiora David M. Gross Fred E. Gustafson Robert E. Hodgdon Michael S. Kindberg Albert C. Ross Frank H. Sawberger Thomas L. Seefeldt John H. Trentes Glen I. Voorhees Please feel free to forward this information to all your friends. Thanks. For Help with Majordomo Commands, please send a message to: Majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com with the word Help in the body of the message - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #117 ***********************************