From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #180 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Sunday, February 20 2000 Volume 02 : Number 180 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 14:35:56 -0700 From: charles hardy Subject: UTGuns Leg alert 2-16 Today's votes - 1.5 victories, 1.5 losses? Tomorrow's schedule (partial) WHAT YOU MUST DO! Special thanks to all of you who showed up for the committee hearings this morning! You DID make a difference, and your support is very much appreciated. I am truly overwhelmed and grateful that there are so many of you good people who care about FREEDOM! TODAY'S VOTES Thanks to Senate Transportation and Public Safety Committee Chair Michael Waddoups for his fine job of facilitating fair hearings. SB 200 - Mental health commitments (Montgomery) SB 200 allows the state to commit persons alleged to be mentally ill, even if they do NOT pose an immediate physical threat to themselves or others. It will make it possible to commit virtually anyone - and then revoke their firearms rights for life under federal law. Despite overwhelming opposition from members of the public (as opposed to government bureaucrats PAID to testify in favor of bigger and more intrusive government), this very scary bill passed out of committee favorably. Voting to REVOKE THE RIGHTS of people who have never committed a crime - without benefit of due process were: Senators HALE, JULANDER, and KNUDSON. Conspicuously ABSENT were Senators Beattie (who was in the building), Mont Evans, and Steele. (Beattie and Evans were also missing in action at the Monday hearing on this bill.) Voting FOR GUN RIGHTS AND HUMAN RIGHTS were Senators Waddoups and Mayne. This bill will now go to the Senate floor. HB 199 - Limits on Liability for Gun Manufacturers (Throckmorton) HB 199 protects gun manufacturers from frivolous lawsuits intended to enact gun control by putting gun manufacturers out of business. This good and necessary bill received overwhelming support from the public, with only Utahns Against Gun Violence offering opposition. HB 199 was also passed out of committee favorably. Voting to BANKRUPT GUN MANUFACTURERS with frivolous lawsuits were Senators HALE and JULANDER. Voting to protect manufacturers of lawful products and hold criminals responsible for their own behavior were Senators Knudson, Mayne and Waddoups. Senators Beattie, M. Evans and Steele were again absent. This bill will now go to the Senate floor. SB 37 - School Surveys (Montgomery) SB 37 would allow public schools to administer surveys asking personal questions (including questions about firearms) to students WITHOUT parental knowledge or permission. SB 37 was DEFEATED in committee today. However, many of those attending the hearing believe it will be resurrected at a future meeting for another vote. (Like vampires, some bad bills just won't stay dead!) Voting to USURP PARENTAL RIGHTS and INVADE FAMILY PRIVACY were: Representatives Beck, Biskupski, Carlson, Saunders, and Tyler. Voting FOR PARENTAL RIGHTS were Reps. Baca, Dayton, Holladay, Lockhart, M. Snow, N. Stephens and R. Walsh. Missing in action was Rep. Holdaway (also reportedly seen in the building!) Thanks to the Eagle Forum for this committee report. IT IS ESSENTIAL THAT YOU CONTACT MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEE TO MAKE SURE THIS BILL STAYS DEAD! (See below!) THURSDAY'S HEARINGS 8 AM - Thursday Feb. 17 House Judiciary Committee HB 372 - Residency Requirement for Concealed Carry Permit - G. Cox (D) This bill would require that a person be a legal resident of Utah in order to apply for a concealed carry permit. It does not address what would happen to current permittees who are non-residents or to residents who move out of state. It appears that Rep. Cox wants to kill Utah's tourist industry - and maybe even its tourists! His not terribly credible excuse is that Utah can't conduct adequate background checks on out of state residents. Since fingerprints are checked by the FBI, Utah is linked to the federal NICS system, and virtually all states have their records available on computer, this is a bit hard to accept. Why should visitors to our ski slopes, national parks, and the Olympics be denied the right to self-defense? What happens to people who live in Utah part, but not all, of the year, and don't qualify for "legal residence"? We know the answer to those questions from Florida's experience. Florida's tourists and "snowbirds" were singled out for attack by vicious criminals until the state expanded its permit law to include non-residents. It's hard to imagine why anyone would support a bill designed to disarm innocent people and injure one of Utah's major industries. 8 AM, Thursday, Feb. 17, Rm 225, House Law Enforcement and Criminal Justice Committee SB 72S2 - Public Safety Amendments - Spencer (R) This is an Unconstitutional ex post facto law. It revokes firearms rights for up to 10 years for a juvenile adjudicated delinquent for a felony level offense without a jury trial. It revokes firearms rights for LIFE for anyone found in unlawful possession of a controlled substance (even a single pain pill!) and a firearm at the same time, and for anyone dishonorably discharged from the military, even for “political” rather than “criminal” offenses. Don't be fooled by some so-called "gun rights" and disability groups that are willing to sacrifice our Constitution to appease the anti-gun crowd. And don't believe Sen. Spencer when he tell you he "has to" do what the federal government tells him to do. I guess he's never heard of state's rights. Our state legislators have the right and the responsibility to stand up to federal tyranny and the ever-increasing "federalization" of what are properly state concerns. PLEASE NOTE! The complete schedule for Thursday is not yet available. Please check the full schedule at http://www.le.state.ut.us. It should be available by about 4 PM. WHAT YOU MUST DO! 1. Call your OWN Senator and Senate President Beattie. Insist that they OPPOSE SB 200, and that they SUPPORT HB 199! All Senators can be reached at 801-538-1035, although it's better to call them at home. 2. Contact members of the House Judiciary Committee and insist that they OPPOSE HB 372. (See yesterday's alert for contact list. It's posted at http://www.utguns.freeservers.com/legalerts021500.html.) 3. Contact members of the House Law Enforcement and Criminal Justice Committee and INSIST that they OPPOSE SB 72S2. Make sure they know that USSC and the NRA do not speak for YOU - at least on this bill! (See yesterday's alert for contact info.) 4. We need to organize to keep SB 37 DEAD! PLEASE contact committee members who voted against this bill and ask them to continue to oppose the bill. (Baca, Dayton, Holladay, Lockhart, M. Snow, N. Stephens, Walsh) Critical contacts: a) Rep. Baca: This is the first time (to my knowledge) that Rep. Baca has voted for parental rights, and she is taking a LOT of heat for bucking her own party. She NEEDS your thanks, support and encouragement! b) Rep. Holladay Rep. Holladay is reported to be wavering on this bill and needs thanks and encouragement to continue to do the right thing. c) Rep. Saunders Rep. Saunders needs to know that supporting SB 37 was a very bad decision that we will not forget. Should the bill be resurrected, we hope he will regain his good sense and oppose it. d) Rep. Holdaway Rep. Holdaway may be the "swing" vote should this bill be heard again. He needs to know that we expect him to support parent's rights! Contact information for House Health and Human Services Committee: Rep. Carl R. Saunders, Chair csaunder@le.state.ut.us 801-476-1110 Rep. Bryan Holladay, Vice Chair bhollada@le.state.ut.us 801-280-6404 Rep. Loretta Baca, lbaca@le.state.ut.us 801-487-2738 Rep. Trisha Beck tbeck@le.state.ut.us 801-572-2325 Rep. Jackie Biskupski jbiskups@le.state.ut.us 801-484-8369 Rep. Mary Carlson, mcarlson@le.state.ut.us 801-485-8612 Rep. Margaret Dayton mdayton@le.state.ut.us 801-221-0623 Rep. Kory Holdaway kholdawa@le.state.ut.us 801-964-6360 Rep. Becky Lockhart blockhar@le.state.ut.us 801-377-7428 Rep. Marlon O. Snow msnow@le.state.ut.us H 801-224-6163 W 801-486-7121 Rep. Nora B. Stephens nstephen@le.state.ut.us 801-825-3792 Rep. A. Lamont Tyler atyler@le.state.ut.us H 801-272-1218 W 801-581-6920 Rep. Richard L. Walsh rwalsh@le.state.ut.us 801-561-5169 5. Please try to attend Thursday's committee meetings. 6. I hope to see (and meet) many of you at Sen. Hatch's "Town Meeting" this evening! Hilton Hotel, 7 or 7:30 PM (the invitations aren't consistent!) Thanks again for your hard work and support! Sarah Leg-alerts is written and distributed by Sarah Thompson, M.D. All information contained in these alerts is the responsibility of the author, unless otherwise attributed. Leg-alerts can also be found at UTGuns, http://www.UTguns.freeservers.com. Please check out the new site! This is a one-way list. Please do NOT try to post to the list. It won't work, and repeat violations will result in your removal from the list. Comments may be sent to me at righter@therighter.com. Thanks! Permission is granted for distribution of these alerts so long as no changes are made and this message is left intact. To subscribe/unsubscribe from leg-alerts, send a message to: majordomo@aros.net In the body put: subscribe (or unsubscribe) leg-alerts ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy Utah Coordinator--Women Against Gun Control - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 14:37:59 -0700 From: charles hardy Subject: From UTGuns and the Eagle Forumn Fw: ALERT! YOUR HELP IS NEEDED! ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy Utah Coordinator--Women Against Gun Control - --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: righter@therighter.com The following is posted on behalf of UTGuns and the Eagle Forum! SB 37, the awful School Survey bill, was defeated in committee today. However, the Eagle Forum believes it will be resurrected for another vote. PLEASE help us protect parental rights! Voting to USURP PARENTAL RIGHTS and INVADE FAMILY PRIVACY were: Representatives Beck, Biskupski, Carlson, Saunders, and Tyler. Voting FOR PARENTAL RIGHTS were Reps. Baca, Dayton, Holladay, Lockhart, M. Snow, N. Stephens and R. Walsh. Missing in action was Rep. Holdaway (reportedly seen in the building!) Thanks to the Eagle Forum for this committee report. IT IS ESSENTIAL THAT YOU CONTACT MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEE TO MAKE SURE THIS BILL STAYS DEAD! PLEASE contact committee members who voted against this bill and ask them to continue to oppose the bill. (Baca, Dayton, Holladay, Lockhart, M. Snow, N. Stephens, Walsh) Critical contacts: a) Rep. Baca: This is the first time (to my knowledge) that Rep. Baca has voted for parental rights, and she is taking a LOT of heat for bucking her own party. She NEEDS your thanks, support and encouragement! b) Rep. Holladay Rep. Holladay is reported to be wavering on this bill and needs thanks and encouragement to continue to do the right thing. c) Rep. Saunders Rep. Saunders needs to know that supporting SB 37 was a very bad decision that we will not forget. Should the bill be resurrected, we hope he will regain his good sense and oppose it. d) Rep. Holdaway Rep. Holdaway may be the "swing" vote should this bill be heard again. He needs to know that we expect him to support parent's rights! Contact information for House Health and Human Services Committee: Rep. Carl R. Saunders, Chair csaunder@le.state.ut.us 801-476-1110 Rep. Bryan Holladay, Vice Chair bhollada@le.state.ut.us 801-280-6404 Rep. Loretta Baca, lbaca@le.state.ut.us 801-487-2738 Rep. Trisha Beck tbeck@le.state.ut.us 801-572-2325 Rep. Jackie Biskupski jbiskups@le.state.ut.us 801-484-8369 Rep. Mary Carlson, mcarlson@le.state.ut.us 801-485-8612 Rep. Margaret Dayton mdayton@le.state.ut.us 801-221-0623 Rep. Kory Holdaway kholdawa@le.state.ut.us 801-964-6360 Rep. Becky Lockhart blockhar@le.state.ut.us 801-377-7428 Rep. Marlon O. Snow msnow@le.state.ut.us H 801-224-6163 W 801-486-7121 Rep. Nora B. Stephens nstephen@le.state.ut.us 801-825-3792 Rep. A. Lamont Tyler atyler@le.state.ut.us H 801-272-1218 W 801-581-6920 Rep. Richard L. Walsh rwalsh@le.state.ut.us 801-561-5169 **************************** We also need help with SB 72S2 - Terry Spencer's "Public Safety Amendments" This is an Unconstitutional ex post facto law. It revokes firearms rights for up to 10 years for a juvenile adjudicated delinquent for a felony level offense without a jury trial. It revokes firearms rights for LIFE for anyone found in unlawful possession of a controlled substance (even a single pain pill!) and a firearm at the same time, and for anyone dishonorably discharged from the military, even for "political" rather than "criminal" offenses, such as refusing to serve under a UN commander or refusing an unsafe vaccine. USSC and the NRA have decided to sell out our Constitution and our rights to appease Sen. "Gump" Spencer! Don't believe Sen. Spencer when he tell you he "has to" do what the federal government tells him to do. I guess he's never heard of state's rights. Our state legislators have the right and the responsibility to stand up to federal tyranny and the ever-increasing "federalization" of what are properly state concerns. Please contact members of the House Law Enforcement and Criminal Justice Committee and insist they OPPOSE SB 72S2! Bud Bowman, Chair 435-586-8174 Jack A. Seitz, Vice Chair 435-789-0650 Loraine Pace 435-753-6154 Blake D. Chard, 801-773-7474 Carl Saunders, 801-476-1110 Nora Stephens, 801-825-3792 Susan Koehn, 801-296-1761 David L. Hogue, 801-254-1668 Perry L. Buckner, 801-964-8215 Duane Bourdeaux, 801-596-8784 Trisha Beck, 801-572-2325 Thanks! Sarah - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: gopconservatives@eGroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: gopconservatives-unsubscribe@eGroups.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ bargainclothing.com 20-70% off retail prices Junior, missy and plus sizes http://click.egroups.com/1/1461/2/_/97595/_/950731941/ - -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault - -- http://www.egroups.com/docvault/gopconservatives/?m=1 - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:38:18 -0700 From: charles hardy Subject: Delegate training--Fw: Please Read, Please Come, and Bring your conservative friends Short notice, but I only got it today.. ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy Utah Coordinator--Women Against Gun Control - --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "D. Hansen" To: Undisclosed-recipients:; Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 07:56:34 -0700 Just a reminder about the Meet-the-Candidate night in the Bountiful Library (725 S. Main) tonight at 6:30 p.m. This is an excellent opportunity to meet Frank Mylar, an wonderfully conservative candidate running for Attorney General; Steve Stromness, a long-time activist challenging Leavitt; Greg Hawkins (or possibly his representative), also a very conservative candidate who is challenging Orrin Hatch. These people are sacrificing considerably to provide you someone DECENT to vote for. I hope that you'll come out and learn how you can help them. Following the meet-the-candidate part of the meeting, we will also be showing a video on how to become a delegate. This is our most POWERFUL tool. With only 60% of delegate votes at Convention, Leavitt and Hatch are OUT. It is not hard at all to become a delegate. With several hundred more people at these conventions, we can ensure victory for FREEDOM. This small sacrifice on your part can pay BIG dividends in how many of your liberties disappear in the next four to six years. Do you want more of what has been going on? It is sure to continue if you do not support this effort. Please don't let others carry all the weight for you. We can't do it without your help. Dave Quotes for the Day: Ever since I arrived at the state of manhood and acquainted myself with the general history of mankind, I have felt a sincere passion for liberty. The history of nations doomed to perpetual slavery, in consequence of yielding up to tyrants their natural-born liberties, I read with a sort of philosophical horror; so that the first systematical and bloody attempt, at Lexington, to enslave America, thoroughly electrified my mind, and fully determined me to take part with my country. --Ethan Allen ---Quoted in the Beards' Basic History. I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachment of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations. --James Madison - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 00:02:34 -0700 From: Scott Bergeson Subject: FW: McCain Has Strange Friends - ----- Subject: McCain Has Strange Friends Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:04:26 EST From: Grandtime@aol.com McCain Has Strange Friends Former New York Mayor Koch -- who rammed through the city's "assault weapon" registration law, which his successor, David Dinkins, used to confiscate those guns -- has joined the swelling ranks of Democrats saying they "would be comfortable with" John McCain as President. And McCain is on the cover of all three major news magazines this week. Even if I didn't know that McCain was largely responsible for last May's Republican cave-in on gun laws, his bedfellows and admirers would be making me extremely uncomfortable. McCain breathed new life into the Juvenile Justice Bill's anti-gun amendments, after it had been KILLED. McCain and 4 other moderate Republicans said they would vote for the Lautenberg gun show ban bill unless the Republican Leadership brought up a bill. They did and it passed the Senate. McCain told the present Second Vice President of NRA that he would never forget what NRA had done in the 1994 election. He then cosponsored the McCain Feingold Campaign Finance bill. This bill would prevent all independent groups such as NRA, Christian Coalition, Right to Life and other conservative groups from doing effective election campaigns. They could not report the voting records of candidates 60 days prior to the election. ALL elections would be tilted toward anti-gun liberals. George W. Bush did say in the debate last night if you took the guns from law abiding citizens only the criminal would have guns. Grandtime@aol.com (Rich Kuchinsky) Speaking for myself, on my own time, on my own computer, in my own home. My views do not necessarily represent the views of anyone I am associated with or work for on a part-time basis. - --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God." - William Penn; Thomas Jefferson's personal seal 1776 - --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:33:45 -0700 From: Scott Bergeson Subject: [Fwd: [gopconservatives] gun news bad] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------490534F05128EC30AD2EA5B8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - --------------490534F05128EC30AD2EA5B8 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Delivered-To: shbergeson@mail-slkc.uswest.net Received: (qmail 93294 invoked by uid 0); 18 Feb 2000 01:13:44 -0000 Received: from mail9.uswest.net (204.147.80.27) by slkcpop2.slkc.uswest.net with SMTP; 18 Feb 2000 01:13:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 17621 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2000 01:13:38 -0000 Received: from ck.egroups.com (207.138.41.173) by mail9.uswest.net with SMTP; 18 Feb 2000 01:13:38 -0000 Received: from [10.1.2.125] by ck.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 Feb 2000 01:03:56 -0000 Received: (listserv $); by f7; 18 Feb 2000 01:03:55 -0000 Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-gopconservatives@egroups.com Received: (qmail 15614 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2000 00:07:47 -0000 Received: from email.burgoyne.com (HELO smtp.burgoyne.com) (209.197.0.17) by mx3.egroups.com with SMTP; 18 Feb 2000 00:07:47 -0000 Received: from burgoyne.com (pmk6.burgoyne.com [209.197.6.110]) by smtp.burgoyne.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA01313 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 17:07:44 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 05:08:47 -0700 Message-ID: <38AD364F.3D9BCF3E@burgoyne.com> From: "JOHNNIE BRUCE" To: gopconservatives@egroups.com X-eGroups-Return: gopconservatives-return-1008-shbergeson=uswest.net@returns.egroups.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Mailing-List: contact gopconservatives-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: gopconservatives@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: Reply-To: gopconservatives@egroups.com Subject: [gopconservatives] gun news bad MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Bad news again. HB372 Residency Requirement for Concealed Firearm Permit (G. Cox) Some how the committee ressssurrected this bill from the dead. It is on for; 4:00 PM Room 223 Friday Feb 18, 2000 House Judiciary Standing Sommittee They are going to get the votes from someone. Call them at their homes and politely encourage them to vote this bill to the grave. jbj - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: gopconservatives@eGroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: gopconservatives-unsubscribe@eGroups.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Promote Health & Earn Extra Income! Join the Rainbow Light Affiliate Program. Sell leading brands of premium nutritionals. Earn 15% commission + 33% on commissions of those you refer to us. http://click.egroups.com/1/1634/2/_/97595/_/950835835/ eGroups.com Home: http://www.egroups.com/group/gopconservatives/ http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications - --------------490534F05128EC30AD2EA5B8-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:58:58 -0700 From: Scott Bergeson Subject: Fwd: *Great* RKBA point - ----- Subject: L&J: Fwd: *Great* RKBA point Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:50:27 -0600 (CST) From: "David Gonzalez" To: Liberty-and-Justice@mailbox.by.net from another list---I wish that *I* had engineered this epiphany! - ---David the Troglodyte - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- A Leftist in my office building was discussing social policy, including so-called "assault weapons" (content) and gun control. They invited me to comment, knowing full well my stance on the subject. I pursued the "rights" angle, and was getting nowhere until I said the following: "I will accept the same restrictions on gun ownership that you accept on abortion." There was a pause, and then "Uh, I get it now." - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 07:42:55 -0700 From: Scott Bergeson Subject: FW: Federal Forfeiture Reform - ----- Subject: Federal Forfeiture Reform Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 01:50:55 -0700 From: "Arnold J. Gaunt" At the meeting with Orrin Hatch on Wednesday evening, he indicated his support of forfeiture reform, and his desire that his constituents work with him on their concerns. To that end, I have reviewed S. 1931, Hatch's forfeiture bill. According to Hatch, it will be heard by the Senate Judiciary Committee (SJC) next week. As S. 1931 now stands, it is an extremely feeble attempt at addressing a very grave problem. However, it can and must be improved. I have reviewed the legislation, and have provided Hatch's SJC Chief of Staff Manus Cooney with the amendments necessary to restore justice. I would encourage you all to immediately contact Senator Hatch, and request that he respond to all of the requested amendments. In addition, contact Manus at 202-224-5225, or fax 202-228-1115. Senator Hatch is going to have an excellent opportunity to demonstrate his willingness to accept citizen input. I am not particularly optimistic, but am willing to be surprised. Arnold 801-621-3122 Restore Justice - Amendments to S. 1931 Prepared by: Arnold J. Gaunt February 18, 2000 1. Place burden of proof on government by clear and convincing evidence. S. 1931 requires the government to show, by a preponderance of the evidence, that the property is subject to forfeiture (Sec. 2(c)). The preponderance evidentiary standard inherently places the burden of proof on the claimant (i.e. innocent owner), because he must tip the scales of justice in his favor by showing that the property is not subject to forfeiture. With the clear and convincing evidentiary standard, the government must prove its case to an absolute standard, rather than to a relative one. 2. Prohibit "facilitation" forfeitures, unless owner is criminally convicted. 21 USC 881a enumerates property that is subject to forfeiture. If the property is "used or intended for use" [by any person, who is not required to be the owner] in furtherance of illegal activity, it may be confiscated by the government. Please notice that there is no requirement whatsoever for complicity by the owner of the property for his property to be taken. This injustice can be corrected by doing two things: 1) Require that the owner be convicted of a related criminal act before any property forfeiture can be enabled, and 2) modify the statutory verbiage to "used and intended by the owner for use". 3. End conflicts of interest/consolidation of power. S. 1931 does nothing to end the unconscionable abuse created by allowing the police to profit from the property they seize. This feature of present law allows the Attorney General to assume the legislative power to raise and allocate revenue. Since the drug trade causes harm to innocent persons, all forfeiture proceeds should be allocated to the victims of crime. 4. Restore the prohibition against the circumvention of state laws. 21 USC 881 was amended in 1989 to encourage circumvention of state laws by the federal government. The Amendments section following this code reads as follows: 1989 - Subsec. (e)(3)(B). Pub. L. 101-189 amended subpar. (B) generally. Prior to amendment, subpar. (B) read as follows: "is not so transferred to circumvent any requirement of State law that prohibits forfeiture or limits use or disposition of property forfeited to State or local agencies." This language must be restored to end the abuse created by "federal adoption" of forfeiture cases. 5. End extra-judicial forfeitures. The right to own property is of inestimable value. In accordance with this value, no forfeiture should be permissible except through a court of law. Amend Sec. 7(a) to require judicial forfeitures regardless of property type. For further information, please contact Arnold Gaunt, Utah coordinator for Forfeiture Endangers American Rights (FEAR). E-mail: ajgaunt@xmission.com, phone 801-621-3122. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 21:26:15 -0700 From: Scott Bergeson Subject: FW: LEG-ALERT 2-19: Committee reports, REMINDER!, HELP! Committee reports CALL YOUR SENATOR! Report on Senate Judiciary Committee, 2-18 The Senate Judiciary Committee PASSED Sen. President Lane Beattie's SB 162S1 and SB 162S1 favorably yesterday. SB 161S1 (Hall passes for gun owners) requires that concealed carry permittees report to the principal's office to notify them that they are "a threat to civilized society and our children." It also allows school officials to harass or fire school employees who choose to carry firearms. SB 162S1 (Permission slips to worship) requires concealed carry permittees to notify church authorities that they are "a threat to the congregation" and ask permission to attend church. Child molesters, rapists and violent felons are exempted from the notification requirement. Sen. Valentine did amend the bills to make a violation an infraction instead of a misdemeanor. Everyone who attended the meeting commented on how completely unfair the committee hearings were. Utah's exemplar of Soviet-style democracy, Committee Chair Sen. Terry Spencer, insisted that both bills be discussed "as one". He restricted remarks to "notification", banning all speech relating to the Second Amendment, other states, other countries, crime data, or anything that he didn't want to hear. He claims that neither bill has anything to do with the Constitution or the Second Amendment - although both infringe on the right to carry without government harassment. Anyone who violated his abusive rules was gaveled into silence. Despite Spencer's best efforts, not a single person spoke in favor of the bills. Sen. Spencer clearly does not respect either the First or the Second Amendment. And he obviously wants to discourage and stifle public input in the legislative process. Testifying against these bills were: Brent Odenwalder Scott Steffensen Scott Engen, GOUtah! Elwood Powell, USSC Ruth Andrus Bill Nash, Utahns Against Gun Violence (who thinks the bill doesn't go far enough!) (And another person who's name wasn't relayed to me.) THANK YOU! And thanks to all of you who attended and weren't allowed to speak too! Senators Hellewell, Hillyard, Valentine and Spencer voted FOR this attack on our rights although they also said they'd vote against it on the floor. They say they think it needs "more public discussion". (Has any issue in recent memory been MORE discussed?) Translation: We want to tell anti-gun folks we voted FOR the bills and tell pro-gun folks we voted AGAINST the bill. We want to give the gun-grabbers and the media more opportunities to attack law abiding gun owners. We want Gov. Leavitt and Sen. President Lane Beattie to "like us". We think issues of rights should be decided by "public opinion polls". We don't want to be held accountable for what we do. And "If we don't vote against your rights, Democrats might get elected!" (shudder) The question is quite simple: Do Utahns have the right to defend their lives? UTGuns wants to know if these gentlemen would also vote FOR a bill to legalize late-term abortions on demand "because it needs more public discussion"? (We think they wouldn't! They'd oppose the murder of the defenseless.) The issue in both cases is the right to life. Why do they want to encourage the murder of defenseless adults? And why should we care if Democrats get elected? The Dems voted AGAINST this bill. What's the difference between a Republican who steals your rights and a Democrat who steals your rights? Nothing - except the Democrats don't lie about it. Let them know what you think! Chair - Sen. Terry Spencer 801-543-4450 tspencer@le.state.ut.us Sen. Parley Hellewell (R-Utah) (801)226-3034 parley@itsnet.com Sen. Lyle Hillyard (R-Cache, Rich, Summit) (435)753-0043 lhillyar@le.state.ut.us Sen. John Valentine (R-Utah) (801)224-1693 jvalenti@le.state.ut.us Report on the Senate Transportation and Public Safety Committee 2-18 Things were not much better over at the Senate Transportation and Public Safety committee, where SB 32S1 (Marksmanship tests for concealed carry) was held. Sponsor Sen. Ron Allen substituted his bill to make it worse, and then amended it to make the marksmanship test a little easier. The bill would require an ANNUAL marksmanship test with EACH gun that you carry. (How this would be accomplished when renewals are every 5 years was not mentioned. And of course you'd have to give BCI a list of each gun that you carry and let them know if you get a new one! No one seems to know who would administer these tests or where they might be conducted. Perhaps that's the idea. If it's impossible to get or renew a permit, maybe gun owners will just go away.) Interestingly no one has even tried to estimate what this will cost permittees - or what it will cost BCI to keep such extensive records. My own estimate is that it would cost permittees $50 to $100 a year for EACH gun to keep a permit, if you include paying for range time, ammunition, instructors to sign certification permits, travel expenses, and the inevitable increase in fees to BCI to hire new employees and track records. The current fee is $10 every five years. Sen. Julander offered the opinion that since she had to spend four years in school and pass a licensing exam to get her nurse's license, concealed carry permittees should have to do the same. Sen. Julander - which article of either the Utah or the US Constitutions guarantees that your right to be a nurse shall not be infringed? Is there a "right" to be a nurse? Sen. Hale was reduced to tears at the idea that an unlicensed person might dare to try to save the lives of children. Would it be better to just let them be murdered like the kids at Columbine? Interestingly, Sen. Allen prefaced his remarks by saying, on the record, that he had spoken to Brian Judy, NRA-ILA representative for Utah, and that the NRA has no objection to this bill! I spoke with Brian earlier today. He says the NRA does NOT support this bill, and will not support any requirement for live fire tests for concealed carry permits. In fact, he's never spoken to Sen. Ron Allen at all - about this bill or anything else! Testifying in opposition to this bill were: Leonard Wojcik, USSC Winton Clark Aposhian, GOUtah! and US-DIN! Billie Telford Randy Browning Sarah Thompson, UTGuns (and probably a few I forgot!) THANKS! And thanks also to Sen. Mike Waddoups for allowing members of the public to comment without undue harassment! The bill was "held" in committee and will be voted on "sometime". It's currently scheduled for 4 PM Monday, Rm. 403. PLEASE contact members of the committee and ask them to OPPOSE SB 32. NO amendments, no compromises! Sen. Michael Waddoups, Chair 801-967-0225, mwaddoup@le.state.ut.us President Lane Beattie 801-292-7406, lbeattie@le.state.ut.us Sen. R. Mont Evans 801-254-2655, mevans@le.state.ut.us Sen. Karen Hale 801-485-6642, khale@le.state.ut.us Sen. Paula F. Julander 801-363-0868 prjuland@msn.com Sen. Peter C. Knudson 435-723-2035 pknudson@le.state.ut.us Sen. Eddie "Ed" P. Mayne 801-968-7756 emayne@le.state.ut.us Sen. David H. Steele 801-825-3033 dsteele@le.state.ut.us More bill hearings! HB 245, Gun Hysteria in Public Schools (Wright) will also be heard by the Senate Transportation Committe, Monday, 4 PM, Room 403. (See list of Senators above.) Please ask committee members to OPPOSE this bill! SB 37, Child Interrogation School Surveys (Montgomery) will be heard in the House Health and Human Services committee Monday, 4 PM, Room 225. (See previous alerts for details.) PLEASE CALL YOUR SENATOR! All of these bad gun bills are on their way to the Senate, and many more will be introduced as the session enters its final 9 days. It is absolutely essential that you call YOUR senator and Senate President Lane Beattie, and let them know that you expect them to OPPOSE ALL GUN CONTROL BILLS! See http://www.senate.le.state.ut.us/roster99.htm for contact info. Sen. Lane Beattie 319 State Capitol SLC, UT 84114-0111 801-292-7406 home 801-538-1400 Capitol 801-538-1414 fax All Senators can be reached at:801-538-1035 Republican fax 801-538-1414 Democrat fax 801-538-1449 IF YOU DON'T ACT, YOU WON'T HAVE ANY RIGHTS!!! Thanks! Sarah Leg-alerts is written and distributed by Sarah Thompson, M.D. All information contained in these alerts is the responsibility of the author, unless otherwise attributed. Leg-alerts can also be found at UTGuns, http://www.UTguns.freeservers.com . Please check out the new site! This is a one-way list. Please do NOT try to post to the list. It won't work, and repeat violations will result in your removal from the list. Comments may be sent to me at righter@therighter.com. Thanks! Permission is granted for distribution of these alerts so long as no changes are made and this message is left intact. To subscribe/unsubscribe from leg-alerts, send a message to: majordomo@aros.net In the body put: subscribe (or unsubscribe) leg-alerts - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 05:30:18 -0700 From: Scott Bergeson Subject: FW: Nationwide Concealed Carry - ----- Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 23:11:55 -0700 From: "Arnold J. Gaunt" Disposition-Notification-To: "Arnold J. Gaunt" Subject: Nationwide Concealed Carry In response to questioning from an attendee at the meeting on Wednesday, Orrin Hatch stated that he opposed nationwide concealed carry legislation because it would infringe upon the laws and constitutions of some states. Some have accepted this explanation. I find his response to be misleading. Allow me to explain why. Second Amendment Restricts the States In certain spheres (enumerated powers and prohibitions) the U.S. Constitution prevails over the laws of any state (see Article VI, second paragraph for the supremacy clause, and the 10th Amendment). Since no state has been forced to join the United States (some have been forced to remain), when each joined the U.S. it voluntarily agreed to submit to the higher law of the Constitution. The Second Amendment is part of the Constitution, and prohibits infringement of the right to keep and bear (i.e. carry openly or concealed) arms by the federal government. I believe it was the intent of the framers that the Second Amendment apply also to every state. My reasoning is based on the wording of the First Amendment, which reads in part "Congress shall make no law ...". Notice the prohibition in the First Amendment is limited to the federal government, not the states. The reason the prohibition is limited is because some of the states at that time were joined with religious denominations, and desired to maintain direct public support of their favorite church. Therefore the states were/are excluded from the prohibition. The Second Amendment, however, does not distinguish between Congress and the states. Its prohibition is applicable to both. From a practical standpoint, a well regulated (proficient and experienced) militia (military force comprised of citizens capable of bearing arms) cannot exist if the states prohibit the keeping (ownership) and bearing (carrying openly or concealed within a state and across state lines) of arms (instruments of force like swords, knives, and firearms). For this reason, Congress should not pay heed to any purported enactment of a state that subverts the Second Amendment. Federal override of illegal restrictions enacted by some states regarding the carrying of firearms is in keeping with the spirit and intent of the Constitution (supremacy clause and the Second Amendment). It protects the right to life, and imposes a burden on no one. I believe Orrin Hatch is wrong to imply otherwise. Government Training Justifies Federal Preemption? Orrin is not a purist when it comes to his position on the federal government overriding the states. He is comfortable in allowing retired police to carry across state lines, as though the life of a police officer was somehow worth more than some ordinary citizen. Orrin's position is absurd: if you are just some pitiful and irrelevant taxpayer, override of state statutes is not acceptable, but if you are/were part of the government brotherhood, it is entirely all right. But then he says that the higher level of training is what matters. Say what, where is that in the Constitution? Preemption OK if Individual Rights are Attacked Orrin has no problem with federal enactments, such as the federal possession ban on "semiautomatic assault weapons", that preempt state laws and Constitutions which affirm the right to keep and bear arms. In fact, he laments on his web site that there have been so few prosecutions by Janet Reno for mere firearms possession. Most states have no restrictions on semiautomatics or even machine guns. So what right does the federal government have then to ban what an individual state finds to be lawful and outside the range of government power? Why is this of no concern to Orrin? Conclusion Orrin misapplies the acceptable principle of states' rights to conceal his opposition to viable self defense for citizens as they cross state lines. Unless, of course, your life is deserving of protection because of prior employment with the Government. - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #180 ***********************************