From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #217 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Wednesday, September 12 2001 Volume 02 : Number 217 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 16:22:34 -0600 From: "Scott Bergeson" Subject: FW: WHITE HOUSE UNRESPONSIVE ON GUN BAN SUNSET - -------- Original Message -------- Subject: WHITE HOUSE UNRESPONSIVE ON GUN BAN SUNSET Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 17:41:45 -0400 From: "Weldon Clark" * * * * 2ndAmendmentNews * * * * WHITE HOUSE UNRESPONSIVE ON GUN BAN SUNSET By Weldon Clark This affects the nation. So far the Bush White House has refused to answer the following letter from South Carolina Representative Dwight Loftis. It is published here with his permission. They have also refused to answer my personal letter on the same subject. It is up to you to send in your letters to President Bush and your own congressman to get them to stand up for our rights. E-mail will not do the job here. DO NOT ASSUME THEY WILL TAKE OUR SIDE. Place them on record with your own US mail letter. Also send your own letter to your own Congressman. This ban effects almost all the rifles used in rifle competition (except small bore) including the state and national matches, collecting and guns used for hunting. >From The 2ndAmendmentNews Team Writing your CONGRESSMAN OR STATE LEGISLATORS can now be accomplished at the speed of light. Use URLs as follows: http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/ Contacts for federal & state legislators http://www.gunowners.org/activism.htm You can call your two Senators at (202) 224-3121 and your Representative at (202) 225-3121 at the Capitol Switchboard. Here are the URLs for the United States Congress Official list of House of Representatives members by state http://clerkweb.house.gov/107/olm107.php3 Official list of House of Representatives members with phone numbers http://clerkweb.house.gov/107/mcapdir.php3 Official list of House of Representatives members mailing addresses http://clerkweb.house.gov/107/mbrcmtee/mailinglists/ASCIImemberlabels.txt Here are the URLs for the United States Senate Official list of members by state http://www.senate.gov/senators/senator_by_state.cfm Official list of members alphabetically dig on name to get address Phone fax and e mail (the individual Senators have different pages) http://www.senate.gov/senators/index.cfm U. S. Attorney General John Ashcroft, U.S. Depart. Of Justice 950 Pennsylvania Ave., NW Washington, DC 20530-0001 AskDOJ@usdoj.gov President George W. Bush, The White House, 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. NW, Washington, DC 20500 president@whitehouse.gov Under Secretary Bolton U. S. Department of State 2201 C Street NW, Washington, DC 20520 (202) 647-4000 Secretary@state.gov To spread the word call Rush Limbaugh at 800-282-2882 and callers may call in from 12 noon to 3PM EST, M-F Letter from House of Representatives State of South Carolina Dwight A. Loftis District No. 19 - Greenville County August 16, 2001 - ----------------- President George W. Bush 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. Washington, DC 20500 Dear President Bush: It has come to my attention that some of your White House staff has indicated that you support continuation of the so-called assault weapons ban of 1994. I understand this band will sunset in 2004. In 1994 Congress passed an importation and manufacture ban on the very type firearms that the U.S. Supreme Court said were protected by the Constitution in their U.S. vs. Miller decision in 1939. The America people rewarded this unconstitutional behavior in Congress by electing Republican majorities in both Houses in 1994 for the first time in 40 years. Your Attorney General John Ashcroft was reported to have said that an exception to allow support of firearms laws is of compelling government interest. I submit to you that in the case of the so-called assault weapons ban, no such compelling government interest exist. In the South Carolina General Assembly, I was the House sponsor of a successful repeal of a ban on the ownership and possession of rifles, pistols and shotguns that were made under contract to the United States Government. This law covered many more firearms than the law in California and the federal ban on so-called assault firearms. Firearms owners were very pleased and there was no protest from the media or anyone else. No additional crimes were credited to this repeal. Nothing bad happened. I would ask your consideration to allow this ban to sunset as scheduled in 2004. Sincerely, Dwight A. Loftis * * * * * DIRECT ACTION is grassroots activism at its best! 2ndAmendmentNews is part of the growing network of state and local groups fighting for our rights. To subscribe or unsubscribe from 2ndAmendmentNews, please send your request with correct email address included to sanews-request@direct-action.org To reach the publishers with your alerts or suggestions for future articles, please send your mail with correct email address to sanews@direct-action.org Please feel free to forward and circulate this newsletter! And check out these other grassroots projects in the network .... To receive Neal Knox's bi-monthly newsletter, send a contribution of $25 or more to The Firearms Coalition, Box 3313, Manassas, VA 20108. For current news and legislative updates contact, call 1-900-225-3006 (89 cents per minute) or visit http://www.NealKnox.com (free) and go to "Scripts from the Firearms Coalition Legislative Update Line". Learn "What To Do If The Police Come To Confiscate Your Militia Weapons" at http://www.SecondAmendment.net The Georgia Sport Shooting Association wants you! A free shooting events list is published every two weeks. Sign up at http://www.gssa.com Be sure to track the battle for our rights in the front-line state of Maryland at http://www.direct-action.org - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:44:19 -0600 From: charles hardy Subject: Fw: Redistricting Meeting 9/13/01 7:00 AM & K-mart's latest While this may not appear directly related to guns, redistricting does affect--for the next ten years--how easy it will be to elect good people to office. This was written from a Republican perspective. If you are Republican, you probalby want to show up. If you are a Democrat, you probably ought to make sure that your pro-gun democratic candidate is not being redistricted out of his/her seat. - ---------------- Charles Hardy - --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "David A. Hansen" To: "D-Hansen, David A." Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:49:30 -0600 Subject: Redistricting Meeting 9/13/01 7:00 AM & K-mart's latest Message-ID: <001901c13b46$6188f680$80d1e0cf@hansen> 1. Redistricting Meeting Alert--This is critical if we are to be able to vote Matheson out. 2. Kmart pulls all guns and ammo from shelves. But first, my comments: This latest terrorist attack will, for certain, mean more incursions into your Constitutional rights. Get ready for it. It's coming. More gun control, more search and seizure violations, more traffic checkpoints, more telephone/video monitoring. All to make you "feel safe." Of course, one thing I haven't heard is the media/politicians saying that perhaps these airliners are sitting ducks because of their citizen disarmament policy: everybody--except apparently the terrorists who always find a way around such contrivances--had been stripped of their right to life as they passed through those wonderful, fail-safe metal detectors. Maybe if just a few passengers on these airliners were surrepticiously armed, perhaps the terrorists would find themselves at a great disadvantage and not be able to pull off such mayhem. So much for metal detectors and the enhanced "'feeling of safety" they provide. I guess the trade-off of that wonderful "feeling of safety" is worth the loss of ten or fifteen thousand citizens? Remember how years ago as a freshman senator Orrin Hatch purposely applied to be a Federal Marshall, just so he could carry a firearm wherever he went, including--loaded--on an airplane? Where's Orrin now? Why isn't he fighting for our rights? Why does his life matter more than the lives of we plebians? If Orrin's record stays true to his latest course, count on him to "lead the charge" against your Constitutional rights, just as he "led the charge" to ensure the seating of some of the most liberal anti-freedom judges in our country's history. While it is laudable to seek to punish those who commit such atrocities, it is stupidity to continue to leave yourselves vulnerable to repeated atrocities. When will we learn? God bless America. David A. Hansen 1. Redistricting Meeting Alert. "James M. Evans" | Block Address | Add to Subject: [UTGrassroots] Redistricting Meeting 9/13/01 7:00AM There is one last meeting of the redistricting committee on 9/13/01 at the state capitol room 129, at 7:00am. It is vital that as many republicans as possible show up to this meeting. During the past meetings only democrats were showing up and I strongly believe that this is having an impact on the committee. We must show up just to remind them not to give too much away. We need about 100 people. Let me know if you are able to come. I need you to call party activist and ask them to show up. After the 9/13/01 meeting, the next time redistricting will be heard is at the special session in Oct. We only have ourselves to blame if we don't give one hour (7:00am to 8:00am) on 9/13/01, state capitol room 129. I have been ask by committee members how do we(party activists) feel about their performance. The time to let them know is on 9/13/01. Absent our imput who knows what will happen. WE MUST SHOW UP! If you have any questions call me at 560-0074. Thanks James Evans And from Ronald Levine: Republican friends, I agree with this one and urge you to show up. For those of us who don't know that much about the politics of redistricting -- we win the battle if you just show up. Winning is just a matter of work. This work is easy and I will just ask you to do this once every ten years. This is a strength of numbers thing. Redistricting is a matter of political advantage and Democrats have been organized and have shown up to the meetings and we have not. Let's not allow them that advantage. The redistricting committee in their effort to appear fair have been taken advantage of by an organized Democratic showing. Redistricting occurs every 10 years for drawing new political boundaries. The population growth has been in the Republican areas, so we should have more Republican legislative seats. Come: Redistricting Meeting Thursday at 7:00 a.m. at the State Capitol room 129. Ronald H Levine 2. Kmart Does it again. K-mart has pulled all guns and ammo off the shelves. Apparently K-mart executives want to make sure only the terrorists have a way of assaulting, while leaving the rest of us defenseless. You may wish to avoid shopping at businesses such as K-mart who kowtow to politically correct forces of the day who would force us to take a knife or less to a gunfight against criminals who would hardly limit themselves to such inferior firepower. If you would like to express your deepest appriciation for K-mart's latest Rosie-type action, you may do so at: Lori V. Gagnon Senior Director of Customer Care BlueLight.com PO Box 417 Lewis Center, Ohio 43035 feedback@bluelight.com Kmart Corporation Customer Service 3100 West Big Beaver Road Troy, Michigan 48084 kmartccn@kmart.com ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:39:41 -0600 From: charles hardy Subject: Knives used in hijackings Please forgive some cross posting. I think this is important info to get out. For any who have missed it--and it would be easy since it isn't getting a lot of coverage--it appears that in at least one of the hijackings today, the weapon used was "knives and box" cutters. Apparantly, one of the regular CNN correspondants was on the plane that hit the Pentagon. She made a call to her husband. The hijackers (no number given but plural used) used knives and box cutters to take over the plane. They forced the passengers and flight crew into the back part of the plane. Tonight, the on screen text on one station stated that authorities now believe knives were used by 3 to 5 man teams to take over the planes. My wife was aghast at how 5 men with knives and box cutters could overpower a whole plane with 80 or more people on it. We both realized that this changes all the rules about plane hijackings. While resistance may not save your own life in such a situation, it sure looks like now that it may well save untold other lives. It is also clear that you don't need to get a bomb or even a gun onto a plane. A plane is a bomb and so long as everyone else is disarmed and unwilling to risk injury, 4 or 5 men with knives can rule. This means that heaven only knows how many people--10,000? 20,000?-- very possibly lost their lives today to 20 guys armed with nothing but small knives and only probably 4 or 8 of whom had some modest training in how to fly (no need to know how to take off or land, just fly once airborne) a jet. We are already hearing about how this is going to affect air travel. Longer checkins, no one but ticketed passangers through security, x ray all luggage, etc, etc, etc. The "poorly trained and poorly paid" airport security personel are being blamed. Night shift maintaince, cleaning, and other airport personel are being looked at as possible insider conspirators. It is possible that any one of those things may have played a role. But it is also entirely possible that 20 men simply walked through security with legal knives in their pockets, or not-so-legal-for-aircraft knives hidden on their person in such a way as to minimize chances of detection in the metal detector (Metal detectors tend to detect total metal and do so better in some geometric planes than others. So it is possible by using a knife with low metal content, positioning it right, and having absolutely no other metal on your body, to walk it right through a metal detector set at a moderate sensitivity.), or stashed carefully inside carry-on luggage (such as inside a metal film case designed to shield high speed film from xray damage), or even built into laptop computers or some such device. The Boston Herald suggests the "knives" were stashed in shaving kits and were actually plastic handles holding razor blades. Flight attendants were killed to draw the pilot out of the cockpit in one plane it seems. There is no evidence that guns were used. Indeed, the fact that in the 4th plane a passenger locked himself in a bathroom and was able to make a cell call strongly suggests there were no guns. A hijacker with a gun--properly loaded--simply shoots through the door and kills an uncooperative passenger locked in a bathroom. But a suicide hijacker with a knife, can't do much short of wasting time forcing open the door. But I will bet dollars to doughnuts that before this is through we hear calls for more gun control, less freedom of speech--especially on the internet--less freedom of assembly--especially for "militia types"--less privacy from wiretaps and searches and seizures. IMHO, it is simply impossible, in a free society to eliminate the possibility that things such as this might happen. There is no way to keep all the people traveling who need to and want to travel in this country and do the kind of highly intrusive searches and security that will prevent a determined terrorist. We can stop the occasional nut case and the harmless innocent who forgets about the hunting knife in his overnight case. But we simply cannot stop a detemined terrorist. We can and should make sure that retaliation is swift, sure, and awful to those who perpetuate such crimes as well as those who support or harbor them. The bill of rights certainly does not apply to non citizens far beyond our borders. Not to put too fine a point on it, but there are some individuals, groups, and cities--if not nations--that should cease to exist after this. We can and should provide some measure of security in the planes themselves. Obviously, allowing random firearms into pressurized planes is not a very good solution. Even LEOs have to go through special FAA training before they are supposed to carry their guns on planes. So as much as I support RKBA, you'll not hear me suggesting passengers--even those with CCW permits--be allowed to carry guns on planes. However, heavily trained, plainclothes, armed skymarshalls ought to be regular features on flights. Here in Utah we require that armed security be provided anytime and anyplace that citizens are disarmed. Why is a plane any different? And it isn't like this is without precedent. SkyMarshalls were not uncommon on airlines during the hijacking spree of the 70s. They helped end teh spree. I understand they are still used in nations such as Israel. And, having discovered that there are FAR worse things that one can do with a plane than simply blow it up mid flight, cockpits can and should be heavily secured. It would be a very modest increase in the cost of airliners to have a real door, bullet and explosive resistant, with real locks, between the cockpit and the passengers. It would be a modest change of policy to require pilots to keep those doors secured even--perhaps especially--in the event of some problem or disturbance in the cabin. Maybe brawny men ought to be recruited as flight attendants along with the usual women. We should probably re-examine our foreign policy. We must come to the realization that there are people in the world who really hate us. To many moslem nations WE are the great pagons of the world with our loose morals and immodest dress. Pagons "over there" are one thing. But pagons in your own backyard are bound to engender strong feelings. There are people in the world who really hate self government. We are naive and arrogant in this regard. Bear in mind that even among the so-called free nations, NONE has adopted OUR unique form of government. Most all "democracies" use some variant of the English parlimentary system. We take as our right to do things in other countries that we would not accept for one minute another nation doing in the U.S. We do, needlessly in too many cases, IMO make ourselves targets by ignoring both the Monroe doctrine and Pres. Washington's wise advice to avoid entangling foreign alliances as well as the words in our Declaration of Independance which state we hold all nations to be "friends in peace, enemies in war." We should probably give serious thought to what really constitutes national vital interests. IMO, maintaining a supply of oil probably is vital; "keeping peace" among third world goat herders probably is not. Finally, we must re-grow some backbones as Americans. Men with razors stabbing and slicing flight attendants is surely a grizzly scene. But even with knives, 4 or 5 men should not be able to force compliance from 60 or 80 AMERICANS. We must throw off the liberal, HCI taught doctrine of compliance with crimminals. Resistance--even at the cost of personal injury--must be re-taught and relearned as a personal virture. Crime is rampant because it does pay. 99 times out of 100, a purse or wallet is handed over with only a wimper to not hurt anyone. If even one time in the ten the perp was shot dead, we'd have fewer muggers. If 20 or 30 percent of intended rape victims shot their attacker, rapists might find more socially acceptable ways to fulfill their sick needs. There is some speculation that perhaps the 4th airliner was deliberately crashed once someone realized what was happening. If so, that is good news for our country's culture. But it should not have come to that. The news today should have been about 4 FAILED hijacking attempts wherein a couple dozen airline passengers and flight attendants were injured or killed with knives while 20 terrorists were subdued or killed as they were outnumbered 5 or 10 to one by angry male passengers before they could take over the planes. Instead, 20 men with KNIVES managed to slaughter 10,000-20,000 Americans. I don't mean to degrade the memory of anyone. In their defense, most people honestly believe that no resistance is the best way to avoid harm. But let us learn the lessons of the day and not make the same mistake in the future. Let us make sure that we raise our voices loud and sure against all who would suggest we must now sacrifice essential liberties on the alter of pretended security. New Hapshire, I believe, has a State motto of "Live free or die." Do we really believe that anymore? Now is the time to make sure others consider the danger of subcoming to the siren song of safety and security--whether on a plane, or on their streets. May God bless those who have lost so much today. And may He bless each of us to help, and comfort, and serve those in need in whatever way we can. May He also bless each of us and our countrymen with courage to remain free. - ---------------- Charles Hardy - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 07:59:32 -0600 From: "Scott Bergeson" Subject: Re: Knives used in hijackings charles hardy wrote: >Obviously, allowing random firearms into pressurized planes >is not a very good solution. Even LEOs have to go through >special FAA training before they are supposed to carry their >guns on planes. So as much as I support RKBA, you'll not hear >me suggesting passengers--even those with CCW permits--be >allowed to carry guns on planes. Although one would not want to shoot into the cockpit or damage flight control mechanisms, small holes in the fuselage are no big deal. It is rather unlikely to rupture, nor will several bullet holes overwhelm the pressurization system. Nevertheless, sky marshalls carry grooved aluminum hollowpoint bullets. Considering your other concerns, perhaps passengers should carry fighting knives. Istr once seeing ads in places like Soldier of Fortune for fiber composite knives that would not activate metal detectors. I'm not advocating smuggling weapons to defeat airport security, but rather emphasizing the need to change those restrictions, as these incidents show. In the meantime, I wouldn't fly commercial except under duress. (assuming flights resume) Attacking brawny, knife-wielding hijackers with bare hands and feet isn't my first choice. However, why not an airliner enhancement on the CCW permit (or instead of, should we get Vermont carry), much like the motorcycle enhancement on a driver license? Scott - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 08:44:48 -0600 From: "Scott Bergeson" Subject: FW: WHILE NORMAN LEARED WHILE NORMAN LEARED By L. Neil Smith Special to _The Libertarian Enterprise_ Please copy and send at will, with proper credit Professor John Lott wrote a book a few years ago, called _More Guns Mean Less Crime_, in which he said things -- the mere title was enough -- that still have the victim disarmament crowd screaming and weeping. Today, after horrifying attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, we can now safely observe that no guns mean the ultimate crime. When I started writing my first novel, _The Probability Broach_, in 1977, I was just back from a national Libertarian Party convention where I was almost laughed off the platform committee I was a member of, because I introduced a plank warning that airport security -- featuring metal detectors, X-ray machines, and Air Marshalls -- which was a relatively new thing back then, represented the seeds of a police state. Each year that's passed since then has only proven that I was right. I now rest my case -- although I'm not promising to shut up. One of the features of _The Probability Broach_ that was fun to write, and just as significant as my prediction, in the same book, of the Internet as we now know it, was a scene in which the hero, a cop from our world, boards an aircraft with his friends and is startled when representatives of the company merely want him to demonstrate that the ammunition in the guns he carries is designed not to harm the aircraft. I confess that I got this idea, way back then, from an episode of _All in the Family_ in which Archie Bunker proposes arming airline passengers to prevent hijackings. Norman Lear obviously thought the notion represented the very height of right-wing absurdity. But somebody tell me -- now -- how an aircraft full of well-armed people could be hijacked and used against civilization the way five were today. I'm not the only one who's thought of this. I have messages from others, including my good friend Tom Knapp, who would agree with me that everyone who died today, or was injured, in any of these attacks was, first and foremost, a victim of Thomas Dodd, Howard Metzenbaum, Pete Shields, Sarah Brady, Charles Schumer, Diane Feinstein, Diana DeGette, and anybody else who ever strove to disarm victims of crime - -- not to forget Norman Lear himself who's spent most of his overly long life ridiculing everything that made this culture prosperous and safe. And a special thought has to go out to the Manchurian Candidate himself, gungrabbing Senator John McCain, whose blabbery about this event is being broadcast everywhere by the whorish media who adore him so. However it's also important to thank Wayne LaPierre and all other so-called Second Amendment leaders who've cozied up to the anti-gun crowd. Moreover, H.L. Richardson presently doing his best to wreck Gun Owners of America, had better quit trying to imitate LaPierre right now, and start holding the line again. With the Internet nipping at his heels, he'll achieve nothing he values in trying to suck up to the Republicans. An armed society -- a society consisting of armed individuals -- is not immune to terrorism. No truly open society can be. But today's acts would simply have been impossible to carry out successfully. What's more, today's events turn one's mind to thoughts of Vin Suprynowicz who, more than any other pro-freedom writer, has been concerned with restoring the individual's right to really _large_ weapons. Suppose the terrorists had stolen empty planes, sidestepping the threat represented by armed passengers. The giant World Trade Center buildings have been the target of terrorists before -- conspicuous, juicy targets. And yet seven decades of wholly illegal gun laws prevented their owners or tenants from placing anti-aircraft guns or rockets, or gatling guns made to shoot down cruise missiles, on their roofs. More proof that gun control kills. Sooner or later, all of this will run its course and we'll find ourselves on the other side of these events, looking back. Almost everyone I'm listening to agrees that things will never be the same in America. That can happen, of course, in either of two ways. Unlike other countries -- pre-World War II Germany, for example -- people trusted the government. When things like this happened and the state turned the tap handle on their liberty, they believed it only had their best interests at heart. Today, thanks to terrible events from the Kennedy assassination to Waco, you'd be pressed to find a four-year-old who does. America would never be the same if this event inspired us to make the 21st century the century of the Bill of Rights. There are many - -- I just saw a pessimistic message from Jerry Pournelle that the US will now become an empire forever -- who consider that impossible. But we advocates of liberty have a powerful argument to make about how Bill of Rights enforcement could have prevented this evil, deliberate disaster. It's time to make that argument, as loudly and as widely as we can. L. Neil Smith's Webley Page --> http://www.webleyweb.com/lneil The Libertarian Enterprise --> http://www.webleyweb.com/tle Draft L. Neil for President --> http://www.smith2004.org - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:28:16 -0400 From: "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises, Inc. & Shire.Net LLC" Subject: Re: Knives used in hijackings One thing to note here. You don't need ANY weapons to hijack a plane. You just need to convince others that you have them. Just the threat of weapons is enough. I just saw an interview with a lady (who is a flight attendant with United) whose male relative was on the plane that crashed in PA. He had called using the in-flight phone in the seat back and said that the hijackers claimed to have a bomb. She said that he did not mention any other weapons like knives, razors, box cutters, or guns. They probably didn'y have a bomb and she speculated that her relative and some other male passengers probably tried to subdue these guys and in so doing made them fail their mission... Chad - --On Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:59 AM -0600 Scott Bergeson wrote: > charles hardy wrote: > >> Obviously, allowing random firearms into pressurized planes >> is not a very good solution. Even LEOs have to go through >> special FAA training before they are supposed to carry their >> guns on planes. So as much as I support RKBA, you'll not hear >> me suggesting passengers--even those with CCW permits--be >> allowed to carry guns on planes. > > Although one would not want to shoot into the cockpit or damage > flight control mechanisms, small holes in the fuselage are no > big deal. It is rather unlikely to rupture, nor will several > bullet holes overwhelm the pressurization system. Nevertheless, > sky marshalls carry grooved aluminum hollowpoint bullets. > > Considering your other concerns, perhaps passengers should > carry fighting knives. Istr once seeing ads in places like > Soldier of Fortune for fiber composite knives that would > not activate metal detectors. I'm not advocating smuggling > weapons to defeat airport security, but rather emphasizing > the need to change those restrictions, as these incidents > show. In the meantime, I wouldn't fly commercial except > under duress. (assuming flights resume) Attacking brawny, > knife-wielding hijackers with bare hands and feet isn't > my first choice. However, why not an airliner enhancement > on the CCW permit (or instead of, should we get Vermont > carry), much like the motorcycle enhancement on a driver > license? > > Scott > > - > > - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 09:47:47 -0600 From: "Scott Bergeson" Subject: Re: Knives used in hijackings "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises, Inc. & Shire.Net LLC" wrote: >I just saw an interview with a lady (who is a flight attendant with United) >whose male relative was on the plane that crashed in PA. He had called >using the in-flight phone in the seat back and said that the hijackers >claimed to have a bomb. She said that he did not mention any other weapons >like knives, razors, box cutters, or guns. They probably didn'y have a >bomb and she speculated that her relative and some other male passengers >probably tried to subdue these guys and in so doing made them fail their >mission... Should you find a transcript of this interview, please post the URL. Scott - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:52:37 -0400 From: "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises, Inc. & Shire.Net LLC" Subject: Re: Knives used in hijackings Hi It was on Good Morning America originally, according to a reuters.com article. The lady mentioned in this URL (which is not a URL of the interview nor does it mention the weapons) is the same lady. I found this after my previous email was sent. http://www.reuters.com/fullstory.jsp?type=default&StoryID=214541 Chad - --On Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:47 AM -0600 Scott Bergeson wrote: > "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises, Inc. & Shire.Net LLC" wrote: > >> I just saw an interview with a lady (who is a flight attendant with >> United) whose male relative was on the plane that crashed in PA. He had >> called using the in-flight phone in the seat back and said that the >> hijackers claimed to have a bomb. She said that he did not mention any >> other weapons like knives, razors, box cutters, or guns. They probably >> didn'y have a bomb and she speculated that her relative and some other >> male passengers probably tried to subdue these guys and in so doing made >> them fail their mission... > > Should you find a transcript of this interview, please post the URL. > > Scott > > - > > - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:53:42 -0400 From: "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises, Inc. & Shire.Net LLC" Subject: Go get them! (fwd) Here is a mail I just sent to President Bush. He'll probably never get to see it but someone there might read it. Chad - ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Date: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 11:46 AM -0400 From: "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises, Inc. & Shire.Net LLC" To: "president@whitehouse.gov" Subject: Go get them! Dear Mr. President! I wanted to let you know that we, the American people, are behind you. I'd much rather have you and Gen. Powell and the rest in charge than that spineless Wimp Algore, AKA Albore. There is a well known fictional President or two that you can use for your role models. Jack Ryan, someone who did not want to be President, but who was a damn fine President and did not take things sitting down would be the first example role model for you. The second would be the President as depicted by Harrison Ford in the movie "Air Force One." When you are sure of who was behind this, Mr. President, kill them all. If, as suspected, this Osama Bin Laden guy is behind this, with his Taliban protectors, send in a bunch of special forces hunter killer teams and kill all of Bin Ladens people and him in Afghanistan. Kill them all. Leaving any left will allow them to rebuild and seek revenge. No one will know they are there and no one will know when they do their business. As was rumored in Iraq and, with Bristish SAS in Argentina in the 80s, these soldiers can go in and stay hidden for weeks and do whatever they need to do. I'm sure Vladimir Putin will help out with access through Russia. And that Tony and Gerhardt and the rest will volunteer the SAS, and other help as needed. They realize that they are not immune to this as well. Then, tell the Taliban they had their chance to hand him over and that now it is too late. As accessories to the crime, bomb EVERY Afghanistan government building. Bomb the crap out of them, Mr. President. And then send in the relief agencies to help the poor Afghan people who are suffering. An Afghan Marshall Plan. Good luck Mr President, we are counting on you. Be a Jack Ryan President. Sincerely, Chad Leigh - ---------- End Forwarded Message ---------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:21:43 -0600 From: "Scott Bergeson" Subject: Arm yourself First two URLs are by the Hunter, last tells of passengers taking out the hijackers (and plane, sadly) that crashed in Pennsylvania. Don't ever fly commercial except under extreme duress until airlines respect your right to self defense. Bankrupt them! Hoplophobic corporations must die. Scott http://www.vader.com/failing_the_test.html http://www.vader.com/arm_yourself.html http://www.reuters.com/fullstory.jsp?type=default&StoryID=214541 - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:32:40 -0600 From: Scott Bergeson Subject: From Jerry Pournelle: First claim on United Airline's (which, along with American Airlines and the corporate officers of both, needs to be bankrupted) assets should be for compensation to the families of Jeremy Glick and the other passengers who mitigated the damage United could accomplish in its treasonous aid-giving to enemies levying war against America. Scott - ----- Dear Jerry, Following is a message which my one of my best friends passed along with permission to distribute to those who might be interested. It fills in the details that I missed in my original conversation with him and attempted to relate to you. Tom has given me permission to distribute the message - please feel free to post it if you deem it appropriate. Sincerely, Art Russell Major, US Army (Retired) Message Follows: Today was a tragedy for all of America and to my family, a very personal one. Lynn and my Niece Liz's husband, Jeremy Glick was on United flight 93 this morning. When the Hijackers took control of flight 93. Jeremy called my niece who in-turn conferenced him to 911. Jeremy relayed to the police what was happening as the hijacking unfolded. As our niece Liz listened, Jeremy told the police there were three Arab terrorists with knives and a large red box that they claimed contained a bomb. Jeremy tracked the second by second details and relayed them to the police by phone. After several minutes of describing the scene, Jeremy and several other passengers decided there was nothing to lose by rushing the hijackers. Although United Flight 93 crashed outside of Pittsburgh, with the loss of all souls. Jeremy and the other patriotic heroes saved the lives of many people on the ground that would have died if the Arab terrorists had been able to complete their heinous mission. Please offer your prayers for all of those who perished or were injured in this tragic of all days and to our niece Liz Glick and her 2-month-old child, Emerson, who are left without their loving Husband and Father. May we remember Jeremy and the other brave souls as heroes, soldiers and Americans' on United flight 93 whom so gallantry gave their lives to save many others. Lynn, our four adult children and I are headed to New York to be with our family during this time of great sadness. All of my best, Tom - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:34:33 -0700 From: "larry larsen" Subject: RE: Knives used in hijackings Message Follows: Today was a tragedy for all of America and to my family, a very personal one. Lynn and my Niece Liz's husband, Jeremy Glick was on United flight 93 this morning. When the Hijackers took control of flight 93. Jeremy called my niece who in-turn conferenced him to 911. Jeremy relayed to the police what was happening as the hijacking unfolded. As our niece Liz listened, Jeremy told the police there were three Arab terrorists with knives and a large red box that they claimed contained a bomb. Jeremy tracked the second by second details and relayed them to the police by phone. After several minutes of describing the scene, Jeremy and several other passengers decided there was nothing to lose by rushing the hijackers. Although United Flight 93 crashed outside of Pittsburgh, with the loss of all souls. Jeremy and the other patriotic heroes saved the lives of many people on the ground that would have died if the Arab terrorists had been able to complete their heinous mission. Please offer your prayers for all of those who perished or were injured in this tragic of all days and to our niece Liz Glick and her 2-month-old child, Emerson, who are left without their loving Husband and Father. May we remember Jeremy and the other brave souls as heroes, soldiers and Americans' on United flight 93 whom so gallantry gave their lives to save many others. Lynn, our four adult children and I are headed to New York to be with our family during this time of great sadness - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.277 / Virus Database: 146 - Release Date: 9/5/2001 - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #217 ***********************************