From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #231 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Tuesday, September 3 2002 Volume 02 : Number 231 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:29:04 -0600 From: Charles C Hardy Subject: Fw: A.G. of Utah Needs Help! All, The following is forwarded from Women Against Gun Control founder, Janalee Tobias. If you have a first-hand, armed, self-defense story, and would be willing to share it to help our AG win his lawsuit against the UofU, please contact Janalee via email. Incidents on or around a college campus would be particularly helpful, but any location is fine. You're also free to send the information to me at utbagpiper@juno.com and I'll make sure it gets to the AG. Charles Hardy - ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: "Janalee Tobias" Greetings! The University of Utah is suing the A.G. of Utah and the State of Utah for the right to ban guns on university and college campuses in Utah even though state allows CCW holders to carry guns without restriction except in places where there are secure facilities and even though the A.G.'s office has overturned Utah Governor Leavitt's ban on public employees and public institutions from carrying guns. To aid in this lawsuit, Mark Shurtleff, Utah's A.G., has asked Women Against Gun Control to ask people who have used a gun to defend themselves and who would be willing to sign an affidavit testifying to this to contact Women Against Gun Control. Someone from the Utah A.G.'s office will contact you if you will provide WAGC with contact information. Stories about guns being used for self-defense on campus and/or parking lots and/or college housing surrounding college and/or university campuses would be especially valuable but not necessary. Please send your name, address, e-mail address, and telephone numbers ASAP to: Nancy Herrington, WAGC EVP sw357mag@mindspring.com or Janalee Tobias, President and Founder, WAGC gunflower@earthlink.net or info@wagc.com WAGC will only provide this information to the Utah A.G.'s office. The deadline for the A.G.'s office to submit these affidavits is the first of August. Please send contact information ASAP. Best regards, Janalee Tobias, President Women Against Gun Control "Guns Give Women a Fighting Chance" "The 2nd Amendment IS the Equal Rights Amendment" www.wagc.com P.S. The people who are instigating the lawsuit against the A.G.'s office and the State of Utah are the same people who walked out on a panel discussion with Janalee Tobias and who also said that "CCW holders should be shot." ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 18:51:46 -0600 (MDT) From: Subject: Weapons ban results in unnecessary deaths This news story is dated April 20th BOSTON -- National guard units seeking to confiscate a cache of recently banned assault rifles were ambushed on April 19th by elements of a paramilitary extremist faction. Military and law enforcement officials estimate that 72 were killed and more than 200 injured before government forces were compelled to withdraw. Speaking after the clash, Massachusetts Governor Thomas Gage declared that the extremist faction, which was made up of local citizens, has links to the radical right-wing tax protest movement. Gage blamed the extremists for recent incidents of vandalism directed against internal revenue offices. The governor, who described the group's organizers as "criminals," issued an executive order authorizing the summary arrest of any individual who has interfered with the government's efforts to secure law and order. The military raid on the extremist arsenal followed widespread refusal by the local citizenry to turn over recently outlawed assault weapons. Gage issued a ban on military-style assault weapons and ammunition earlier in the week. This decision followed a meeting earlier this month between government and military leaders at which the governor authorized the forcible confiscation of illegal arms. One government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, pointed out that "none of these people would have been killed had the extremists obeyed the law and turned over their weapons voluntarily." Government troops initially succeeded in confiscating a large supply of outlawed weapons and ammunition. However, troops attempting to seize arms and ammunition in Lexington met with resistance from heavily-armed extremists who had been tipped-off regarding the government's plan. During a tense standoff in Lexington's town park, National Guard Colonel Francis Smith, commander of the government operation, ordered the armed group to surrender and return to their homes. The impasse was broken by a single shot, which was reportedly fired by one of the right-wing extremists. Eight civilians were killed in the ensuing exchange. Ironically, the local citizenry blamed government forces rather than the extremists for the civilian deaths. Before order could be restored, armed citizens from surrounding areas had descended upon the guard units. Colonel Smith, finding his forces overmatched by the armed mob, ordered a retreat. Governor Gage has called upon citizens to support the state/national joint task force in its effort to restore law and order. The governor has also demanded the surrender of those responsible for planning and leading the attack against the government forces. Samuel Adams, Paul Revere, and John Hancock, who have been identified as "ringleaders" of the extremist faction, remain at large. Yes, it was on April 20, 1775. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 13:31:15 -0600 From: Charles C Hardy Subject: Fw: FW: Mass House votes to loosen gun laws Not of direct concern to Utahns, but an interesting twist that may be of interest. Ironic that as Utah's Demos and other anti-gunners continue to push for expansion of the prohibited person list, the liberals in the PR of Mass. are actually giving serious consideration to restoring rights to those who really don't pose any threat. The final paragraph sums it up well. Charles - --------- Forwarded message ---------- http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/192/metro/House_votes_to_loosen_gun_law s+.shtml House votes to loosen gun laws Mass. bill would let felons buy, carry arms By Chris Tangney, Globe Correspondent, 7/11/2002 The state House yesterday overwhelmingly approved a bill that would weaken landmark gun control laws passed in 1998, voting for legislation that would allow convicted felons to legally obtain and carry a gun in Massachusetts. Backed by House Speaker Thomas M. Finneran's leadership team, the bill passed 114-32 despite outraged gun control advocates and legislators who denounced the House for loosening gun restrictions while violent crime is on the rise. "The Legislature should be looking to get illegal firearms off the street, not re-arm violent criminals", said Jerry Belair, spokesman for Stop Handgun Violence, an antigun advocacy group. State Representative Timothy J. Toomey, lead sponsor of the bill, argued that the current prohibition penalizes law-abiding citizens for minor offenses committed when they were young - someone who wants to join a police force, for example, and can't because of a schoolyard fight. "There are too many people who were convicted of a simple assault or battery", said Toomey, a Cambridge Democrat who voted in 1998 for gun control reforms. "It could have happened 20 or 30 years ago. They have since served their country and are good citizens." ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:48:44 -0600 From: Charles C Hardy Subject: Pro-Armed-Pilots editorial in today's SLTrib Don't know what they've put in the water over at the Trib, but they finally got one right with regard to firearms. It is interesting to note that while the Bush administration's transportation head opposes arming pilots due to the belief that "pilots should focus on flying the plane," he is not opposed to letting them carry non-lethal weapons. Now which is going to present a bigger distraction for a longer period of time: Putting 6 or 7 bullets into the head and torso of a hijacker who has just breached the cockpit door, or holding a stun gun against the same hijacker's rib cage waiting fo rhim to go down, or even sparying the bad guy with pepper spray and waiting for him to go and stay down? Charles http://www.sltrib.com/07182002/opinion/opinion.htm Arm Pilots As the last line of defense against hijackers, airline pilots who have been trained and deputized by the federal government should be allowed to carry firearms in the cockpit. The House of Representatives passed such a bill last week, and the Senate should follow suit. The Bush administration, through the Transportation Security Administration, opposes the House bill. The TSA argues that heightened screening of passengers, reinforced cockpit doors and plainclothes federal air marshals on guard in airliner cabins are better and presumably safer means to thwart hijackings. The TSA also argues that pilots should not be distracted by security duties and should focus only on flying the aircraft. But the men and women who fly the planes overwhelmingly favor arming pilots who volunteer to be trained for the task. They reason correctly that hijackers with weapons could slip through security, and that despite the presence of air marshals, pilots should be armed to defend the cockpit of an aircraft in a last-ditch attempt to prevent hijackers from taking control. Commercial airliners carry two pilots. While one flies the plane, the other could try to stop an intruder. Under the House bill, deputized pilots with firearms would not be required or even allowed to use guns outside the cockpit itself. They would not be allowed to leave the controls to use a firearm to deal with a disturbance in the cabin. Their only role would be to defend the cockpit. It is legitimate to worry whether a hijacker could overpower a pilot and take his firearm or whether gunfire could injure or kill a pilot or passenger or could damage the aircraft. But those risks already exist with armed air marshals. While it is true that pilots would not have the depth of training or combat experience of a marshal, many pilots are military veterans, and their use of firearms in the cockpit presumably would only occur when the efforts of the marshal, if one were present, and the rest of the crew to protect the cockpit had failed. As a last line of defense, training and arming pilots is a justifiable risk. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 11:36:25 -0600 From: Charles C Hardy Subject: FW-- PSA : Intro gun training class I'm passing the following along for any who may be interested. This looks like a very introductory class on basic firearms safety and how to go about deciding on the proper firearm to purchase for self defense. The class is scheduled at 6:00 pm, this Wednesday, July 24. Planned length is about 2 hours. It is at about 4900 S and 300 W. in the Salt Lake Valley. PLEASE NOTE THAT DUE TO LIMITED SPACE, ALL PARTICIPANTS NEED TO PRE-REGISTER BY CALLING FRANCIS TULLY AT 259-7112. Charles - --------- Forwarded message ---------- For more info: Francis Tully 259-7112 Gary Travis 569-2084 DATE: July 24, 2002 - Wednesday Introduction to Firearm safety and purchasing a handgun A Free firearm safety seminar will be held Wednesday, July 24, 2002. The seminar was designed to help those who have considered a gun for personal protection, but feel intimidated or overwhelmed about the subject due to their lack of basic firearm and firearm safety knowledge. The seminar is for the complete novice who needs a basic introduction to firearms, gun safety, and purchasing a firearm for personal safety. The seminar will give hands-on training, explanation of different types of firearms and ammunition. Participants will receive: 1. An opportunity to see and handle a variety of firearms and ammunition. 2. Basic safety instruction. 3. Basic legal information regarding concealed carry. 4. Information on what to look for when selecting a firearm. 5. An opportunity to fire different types of firearms on a pistol range. Attendants must pre-register by calling Armed Response Institute at 569-2084 or calling Fran Tully at 259-7112. Additional information: Participants are not to bring any firearms to the seminar. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:08:59 -0600 (MDT) From: DarvellHunt@webtv.net (Darvell Hunt) Subject: My Daily Herlad letter to the editor The Daily Herald (Provo, Utah) published my letter to the editor today (July 23) about the illegal gun ban of the University of Utah. I wrote the letter in response to a letter to the editor commending Utah university presidents who support a gun ban on their campuses. See this other letter by Amy Hart at: http://www.harktheherald.com/article.php?sid=54084 My response letter from today can be found at: http://www.harktheherald.com/article.php?sid=54653 I just wanted to point this out so you wouldn't miss it. Darvell Hunt Saratoga Springs, Utah - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:30:56 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Re: My Daily Herlad letter to the editor Excellent response. Thanks! >>> Darvell Hunt 07/23/02 11:08AM >>> =20 The Daily Herald (Provo, Utah) published my letter to the editor today (July 23) about the illegal gun ban of the University of Utah. I wrote the letter in response to a letter to the editor commending Utah university presidents who support a gun ban on their campuses. See this other letter by Amy Hart at: http://www.harktheherald.com/article.php?sid=3D54084=20 My response letter from today can be found at: http://www.harktheherald.com/article.php?sid=3D54653=20 I just wanted to point this out so you wouldn't miss it. Darvell Hunt Saratoga Springs, Utah - - - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:05:34 -0600 From: Scott Bergeson Subject: Rights and Revolution On the moral use of violence in revolution and why government ought to conform its behavior to what gets taught in civics classes, Clayton Cramer's fantastic article in Shotgun News. http://www.claytoncramer.com/RightsAndRevolution.PDF You'll need Acrobat, alas. Scott Bergeson - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:53:34 -0600 (MDT) From: Subject: Military Homilies - --- This item was forwarded by a retired USAF major who says, "These have merit."... --rc - --- "Sometimes I think war is God's way of teaching us geography." - --Paul Rodriguez "A slipping gear could let your M203 grenade launcher fire when you least expect it. That would make you quite unpopular with what's left of your unit" -- Army's magazine of preventive maintenance. "Aim towards the Enemy" -- Instruction printed on US rocket launcher When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend. Cluster bombing from B-52s is very, very accurate. The bombs always hit the ground. If the enemy is in range, so are you. It is generally inadvisable to eject directly over the area you just bombed. Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons. Try to look unimportant; they may be low on ammo. Tracers work both ways. Five second fuses only last three seconds. Don't ever be the first, don't ever be the last, and don't ever volunteer to do anything. Bravery is being the only one who knows you're afraid. If your attack is going too well, you may have walked into an ambush. No combat ready unit has ever passed inspection. Any ship can be a minesweeper . . . once. Never tell the Platoon Sergeant you have nothing to do. Don't draw fire; it irritates the people around you. Mines are equal opportunity weapons. If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly. - -- Randy Cassingham, author of THIS is TRUE * http://www.thisistrue.com and Publisher of HeroicStories * http://www.HeroicStories.com FIGHT SPAM! See http://www.SpamPrimer.com or email Info@SpamPrimer.com ============================================================ Forwarding these messages is fine -- keeping the next line is appreciated: To SUBSCRIBE to this list, e-mail RandysRandom-subscribe@topica.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 12:15:22 -0600 From: Charles C Hardy Subject: http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,405019944,00.html I haven't read the particulars, and the devil is always in the details. But this report makes this bill look like a worthy effort--though simply allowing such firearms to be kept sans registration would be far better. Charles From today's DesNews: http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,405019944,00.html Cannon offers bill on 'war-trophy' guns WASHINGTON — Rep. Chris Cannon worries that veterans who brought home war-trophy machine guns but never registered them could face prison and fines. So he and Rep. Jim Gibbons, R-Nev., introduced a bill Tuesday that could give them time to legally register and keep the guns. "When veterans returned home from fighting overseas, they were concerned about reuniting with family and finishing school, not registering their firearms," Cannon, R-Utah, said. "Now the machine guns they brought back are illegal and cannot be registered, and veterans or their family members are required to surrender them to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for destruction," Cannon said. "In many cases these war relic firearms are worth thousands of dollars. But in all cases they are meaningful souvenirs for our nation's veterans," he said. The bill would give veterans a 90-day period to register such firearms. To qualify, the arms must have been acquired before Oct. 31, 1968, by a member of the armed forces while stationed outside the continental United States. The bill will also allow family members to register firearms inherited from veterans. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 08:39:37 -0600 From: Scott Bergeson Subject: FW: First article up - -------- Original Message -------- Subject: First article up Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 06:15:14 -0400 From: hunter@mva.net The Chief decided to run with the review of "Boston's Gun Bible" I cobbled together. http://www.sierratimes.com/02/07/26/hunter.htm Should any of you be talking to or ordering books from Javelin Press (or bump into BTP), point out the review to them. I've been trying to email the main Javelin Press email address, and their mailbox is full. Had hoped to let him know about it so the massive surge of sales from my promotion of the book wouldn't overwhelm them... - --- Hunter's Eighty-Ninth Rule: If you're no damn good, at least be good at it. Ceterum censeo fiscum delendum esse - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:16:06 -0600 From: Charles C Hardy Subject: ID. Sen. Craig with Schumer, Kennedy, McCain on background checks This doesn't look like good news to me. Just another step away from actually treating RKBA as a RIGHT rather than a privlege. Charles http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/07/30/gun.checks.ap/index.html Senate bill would strengthen background checks July 30, 2002 Posted: 4:06 PM EDT (2006 GMT) WASHINGTON (AP) -- A self-described "odd-quad" of senators urged the government Tuesday to strengthen its gun buyer instant background check system by requiring federal agencies to contribute to the system and states to computerize their criminal records. The bill, introduced by Democratic Sens. Charles Schumer of New York and Edward Kennedy of Massachusetts, and Republican Sens. John McCain of Arizona and Larry Craig of Idaho, would require states and federal agencies to automate their records and add them to the FBI's National Instant Criminal Background Check System. Background checks for prospective gun buyers have been required since February 1994 under the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act. More than 689,000 people have been denied a gun for failing a background check. But faulty records allowed at least 9,976 prohibited buyers to buy a gun from December 1998 to June 2001, according to a report by Americans for Gun Safety. Schumer, Kennedy, McCain and Craig all have different ideas about gun ownership in America and usually are on different sides in the Senate. But "the background check system is something we all agree on," Schumer said at a joint news conference. "When you see the four of us together, we're not an odd couple, we're an odd-quad," Craig said. "But on this issue we have a very common and very important purpose. We do not believe that those (criminals and the mentally ill) ought to have the right to own a gun." The FBI's system is supposed to identify felons, drug addicts, domestic abusers, illegal immigrants, people who were involuntarily committed to a mental institution and others legally barred from having a gun. It relies on states and other federal agencies to provide criminal, mental health and other records, but many are incomplete or outdated. McCain said officials estimate that there are 30 million records missing from the national database. The legislation authorizes Congress to spend more than $1.1 billion for states and courts to update their records and submit them to the database. It also requires agencies like the Immigration and Naturalization Service and Veterans Affairs to provide their records to it to ensure illegal aliens or the mentally ill don't get weapons. "In a nation where you can walk into any store and swipe your credit card and have an instant accounting of financial capability, and we cannot do something similar to determine whether that individual is legal or illegal in the action of purchasing a firearm? Shame on us," Craig said. A similar bill awaits a vote in the House. The senators say there is agreement on both sides to get the legislation done quickly. "I have every expectation that in September we will pass this legislation and it will be signed by the president," McCain said. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 18:56:00 -0600 From: Scott Bergeson Subject: The Goose and Gander Amendment - -------- Original Message -------- Subject: The Goose and Gander Amendment Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 20:17:16 -0400 From: hunter@mva.net To: lrtdiscuss@vader.com Not a bad plan, though I don't think Dave Kopel carries it far enough. Why restrict the idea to just firearms law? http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel073002.asp - --- Hunter's Hundred Seventy-Fourth Rule: A wise man watches his allies at least as closely as his enemies. Ceterum censeo fiscum delendum esse =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- http://www.LibertyRoundTable.org/ =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >LIBERTY ROUND TABLE DISCUSSIONS LIST v2.13 http://www.vader.com/lrtdiscuss/ >TO POST TO THE LIST: send mail to lrt-discuss@vader.com >TO UN/SUBSCRIBE TO LIST: send blank mail with command as subject - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 12:55:10 -0600 From: Scott Bergeson Subject: Tales of the Garrison State "President Andrew Johnson declared: "Whenever you hear a man prating about the Constitution, spot him as a traitor."" http://www.jbs.org/reviewonline/072802_transcript.htm - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 18:07:01 -0600 From: Scott Bergeson Subject: Fw: HEY ALL YOU HACKERS! eBusiness: HP wins IRS contract NB: HP contributes to the gun-grabbers. - -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Fw: HEY ALL YOU HACKERS! eBusiness: HP wins IRS contract Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 13:16:12 -0700 From: ice@iresist.com Reply-To: ice-bucket-owner@yahoogroups.com To: ice-bucket@yahoogroups.com From: R. J. Tavel, J.D. Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 9:43 AM Subject: HEY ALL YOU HACKERS! eBusiness: HP wins IRS contract By Larry Dignan Special to ZDNet News August 7, 2002, 7:32 AM PT http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1106-948746.html Hewlett-Packard said Wednesday that it won a $35 million contract to supply desktop and notebook PCs to the Internal Revenue Service. Under the deal, HP will supply the IRS with more than 12,300 Compaq Evo D500 desktop PCs and monitors and more than 11,000 Compaq Evo N800 notebooks through PlanetGov, a Chantilly, Va.-based systems integrator that serves the federal government. In a statement, HP touted the deal and called it "a competitive win-back" because the IRS had been a longtime Compaq Computer customer before switching to an unnamed rival. HP, which has announced similar deals recently, is trying to deflect concerns that rivals such as Dell Computer will poach customers while HP works to absorb Compaq. The IRS, which is trying to upgrade its systems, is a plum account for a technology company. In recent days, PC makers have been touting customer wins in an effort to show they are doing well amid weak IT spending. On Tuesday, Dell Computer said Sears Roebuck will use its gear to update the technology infrastructure at 870 stores. Dell didn't reveal financial details of the deal, but sources said it is valued at $15 million to $20 million. Under the deal, Sears will buy 1,800 PowerEdge 2500 servers, seven PowerVault 220S storage systems, 3,700 OptiPlex GX50 desktops, and 14,600 Dell E551 and E771p monitors. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ICE - Investigating Curious Evidence Web site: http://iresist.com/ice/ E-mail: ice@iresist.com ***************************************************** IceBucket Information Updates List Subscription: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ice-bucket/ Subscribe: ice-bucket-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: ice-bucket-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 08:43:57 -0600 From: Scott Bergeson Subject: FW: 2nd Amendment and the original Militia - -------- Original Message -------- From: Don Schwarz Subject: Fwd: the rest of the story...... RE:SECOND AMENDMENT To the Editor, Here is the rest of the story about how the 'militia' was to be provided arms by the national government: Volume 1, United States Statutes-at-Large "Fifth Congress, Session II, Chapter 65, page 576" "An Act providing Arms for the Militia throughout the United States" July 06, 1798 Sect. 1 Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That there shall be provided, at the charge and expense of the government of the United States, thirty thousand stand of arms, which shall be deposited by order of the President of the United States, at suitable places; for the purpose of being sold to the governments of the respective States, or the militia thereof, under such regulations, and at such prices as the President of the United States shall prescribe. Sect. 2 And be it further enacted, That the President of the United States be, and he is hereby authorized to cause all or any part of the arms herein directed to be provided and deposited for sale, which shall, at any time, remain unsold, to be delivered to the militia, when called into the service of the United States, proper receipts and security being given for the return of same." Please be fully aware of the fact, that the 'arms provided' were to be sold to the States or to the MILITIA. Those arms not sold, could be loaned to the MILITIA, but only if receipts and proper security were given in return for the loan of the arm. Please also note, that the arms were to be sold to the 'governments of the respective States' or 'the MILITIA thereof'. If the MILITIA were part of the State, why would Congress expressly designate the sale of arms to either the 'government of the respective States', or 'the MILITIA thereof'? Notice also in the title of the Act, the term of art 'state militia' is not used to designate the MILITIA that can purchase or use these arms. If the MILITIA were part of the 'respective States', why then would Congress offer sale of the arms to the two different entities as in Sect. 1; 'governments of the respective States' OR 'the MILITIA thereof'? If the MILITIA were part of the State government, then the arms sold to the 'respective States' would then also belong to the 'State militia'. NO? What you see here documented in writing, is that Congress separated the States from the MILITIA. NO arms were to be given to the MILITIA, only that they were to be loaned to the MILITIA should the MILITIA volunteer to serve under the President for pay. Any and all volunteer MILITIA members, could purchase AT COST, those military style arms, that were manufactured to government specifications, and were to be made available for the MILITIA, should they need to purchase same. In today's terms, you could go down to your local military depot, and purchase at cost, a fully automatic arm to use while a member of the MILITIA, and then keep same for your own use, even after you were no longer a member of the volunteer Citizen MILITIA. I hope these facts will help clear up the confusion over just who the MILITIA is. The above Act of Congress, was signed by President Washington. Yours, Don Schwarz Stoughton, Mass >>>>>>> By DEFAULT, when Congress or the People speak of the 'militia', it is the one comprised of sovereign Citizens, for by default, this is the only one that existed when this nation was created. <<<<< - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:35:27 -0600 From: Scott Bergeson Subject: Charlton's Angels: Women Against Gun Control Subject: [wagc-ut] Charlton's Angels: Women Against Gun Control Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 06:26:27 -0600 From: Janalee Tobias Reply-To: wagc-ut-owner@yahoogroups.com To: wagc-ut@yahoogroups.com CC: WomenAgainstGunControl@yahoogroups.com Greetings, Utah Weekly, a new conservative publication, called me to do a story on Women and Guns. They wanted to put the Utah Bikini Team on the cover with guns. I said: 1. We do not sexualize guns. 2. The Utah Bikini team has never helped lobby for any gun rights. 3. The Utah Bikini team will alienate women. This is not about fashion models with guns. This is about moms and women protecting their children and those they love. 4. There's more to women than B and B! 5. I said a few more things on how women should inspire men to be better men, not just inspire them to want their bodies! Anyway, Utah Weekly was very understanding and agreed with me. They are a VERY fine publication. I agreed to be photographed with a gun as long I was shooting. I asked two other members of WAGC to join the shooting fun. After a half hour of shooting cameras and guns, :) one of the ladies said, let's do a Charlie's Angels pose for Charlton Heston. That was the pose that turned out best. (WAGC's policy is to have eye and ear protection on and to be very careful how you are photographed with a gun.) That's the pose on the cover story of Utah Weekly. Charton's Angels: Women Against Gun Control Underneath that is the caption on the WAGC page about gun control and pantyhose... Utah Weekly did a very fine job of reporting. They really did the RKBA movement good. I gave the reporter several names of people and gun groups to interview in Utah and the nation. Because of space and time restrictions, he was not able to interview all of them. Nancy Herrington is mentioned in the article. He interviewed Susan Gonzales of WAGC-FL and she told her incredible story of self-defense. He tells the history of WAGC. Again, I don't typically like to do posing with gun shots, but this worked. We were at Holladay Gun Club and the mountains behind us are magnificent. We look like "soccer moms" defending gun rights. That's the image WAGC wants to portray. That's how we win people to our cause. (BTW, I'm not a soccer mom. I'm a music mom. I don't mean to alienate those who aren't moms or soccer moms. That's just the slang word ad guys use when they're targeting their audience.) Women Against Gun Control is just that. It's not WOMAN against gun control. It would not be women against gun control without all the incredible ladies and men who have made WAGC work. Thanks to everyone who works so hard for the right to keep and bear arms. I'm a bit overwhelmed at the interest in this issue. I had no idea what I was getting into. I don't know if I would have ever said, "not all women support gun control" if I would've known how much this statement would turn my life upside down. But what makes it worth it is the people I meet, let me rephrase that, the PATRIOTS I meet who care about our freedom. I want to especially thank Nancy Herrington, WAGC EVP. Without her, WAGC would not be in every state in the U.S. and several foreign countries. She volunteers countless thousands of hours to this cause. She is certainly one of "Charlton's Angels." :) Utah Weekly is on-line at: http://www.utah-weekly.com/ They don't have this issue up yet. I'm going to call and hound the editor to hurry up and get this on-line. Best regards, Janalee Tobias, one of Charlton's Angels P.S. Feel free to call yourself a Charlton's angel. It's pretty catchy. P.S.S. There's a few things that Charlton has done that has upset some staunch RKBA supporters, but for the most part, Charlton is my hero. He was a well-respected, rich actor. He had made his name in movie history. He didn't need to take on a cause. Because of Charlton, he has offset the liberal media. People like Heston and Tom Selleck. Man, they are high caliber men!!! :) This is an announce list only. If you have info you'd like to forward to the list, please send it mailto:wagc-ut-owner@yahoogroups.com. To subscribe, send a blank message mailto:wagc-ut-subscribe@yahoogroups.com. The WAGC homepage is at http://www.wagc.com/ . - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:10:20 -0600 From: Charles C Hardy Subject: Judicial Council makes temp rule permanent I just took a call from a SLTrib reporter. Apparantly the State Judicial Council today made permament the temporary rule they passed in May whereby the courtrooms are no longer "secure" areas and are thus, alledgely, not subject to the gun locker requirement. Of course, metal detectors remain and the judges are banning CCW under threat of contempt of court. This decision opens up some kind of 45 day comment period. I'll work to find out how to comment and will then urge everyone to voice their disapproval of this action. Among the points I made: We must not forget that the judges first action was to refuse to comply with the law. Only later did they go looking for a legally defensable reason. The principles involved in this case could be applied exactly equally to the ADA or Utah Clean Air Act or any other statute. If the judges are free to disobey the laws they don't like, we might as well send the legislature home and let the juges be kings. Legislative intent was clear. Government run places that prohibit guns need to provide storage. Leaving guns in cars or bushes is much less safe than storing them with the court. Charles ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:44:15 -0600 From: Charles C Hardy Subject: Updating your Concealed Carry Permit Information Many of you may have already seen this and I have not verified it personally. However, I have no reason to doubt it and it is certainly the kind of thing government agencies are known for. In any event, better safe than sorry so if you have a CCW permit and change addresses, you'll probably want to check with BCI and get the permit updated quickly. Charles - --------- Forwarded message ---------- I just spoke with BCI. They said that if you move, for example, your carry permit is INVALID. They said that if you update your drivers license to reflect your new address then....for the timeperiod between which the information on your DL and Permit do NOT match, then your permit is INVALID until it does match again (i.e. you also update your permit). I'm posting this just as an FYI. This looks like a good way for a good citizen to get in BIG trouble due to administrative technicalities in the statutes. Be careful! I wish the legislators could do something about this or the AG could issue a rule allowing a 10 or 30 day grace period or something, you know? Best Regards, ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 14:50:43 -0600 From: Charles C Hardy Subject: No CCW storage at federal couthouse Hello all, For a while, I've heard off and on that while our own State courts refuse to obey the clear intent of the law and provide storage for legally carried CCW weapons, the federal courthouse does provide storage. Today, I called the court clerk to check for sure. She thought there might be someplace to secure a personal defense weapon as the Federal Marshall service inside the court apparantly has "some little lock boxes." She gave me the number to the Marshalls and I called to check. The lady there was very pleasant and put me on hold to double check. Her answer after coming back to the line was, "No, I'm sorry, there is no place to store a firearm and you won't be allowed to bring it into the buidling." If anyone has any PERSONAL experience contrary to this information (IE, they really will store your weapon if you show up and ask them to.) please let me know. Otherwise, I'll have to now believe that no courts in this State are offering weapons storage for non-LEOs. Thanks. Charles ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #231 ***********************************