From: Eugene Morgan Subject: RE: (utah-sailing) DEEP SIX Date: 01 Nov 1999 07:29:28 -0800 Well Ray, as always very good information. And I sure won't dispute any of it. I have memories of scuba diving here in Utah in the winter and I'll tell you going from shore to 60 feet, in winter, under the ice, in a wet suite, was a chilling experience, mentally and physically. As to floating, I will comment, although not an expert I think I have the best of information, personal first hand experience. I was swimming this summer in the marina when the water was higher than it is now and I assure you, unless you're made of stone you will float. Both Dave Taylor and I floated around like a couple of corks. I also went swimming last Feb just off my slip. When I hit the water my first thoughts were to get the hell out and you're right, upon recollection my head went back and my arms went up. What actually happened was that I was attempting to propel myself out of the water like a nuclear missile being launched from a submarine. Once clear of the dock I rocked to the showers where I drenched myself in hot water. Fortunately I had a complete change of clothes on the boat. I survived and now no longer have any aspirations of coming back in my next life as a humpback whale or any other free ranging aquatic mammal. -----Original Message----- Sent: Saturday, October 30, 1999 4:20 AM Here is tidbit of information that was done over 40 years ago by the Golden Gate Bridge Authority in San Francisco. It became of interest to the authority as to what the exact cause of death was in matters of "jumpers". While jumping from a bridge of that elevation will do you grave bodily harm, the major cause of death was drowning. Alright, they concluded that the impact would render a person unconscious and result in drowning. Not so, said the medical forensic people. Too many of the victims were conscious when they entered the drowning phase. And, there have been survivors, injured but not any worse off than a bad car wreck. After extensive study there was a conclusion expressed that at the point of impact, within a few seconds of contact with 45ish degree water, that certain parts of the upper body went into violent, uncontrollable spasms. The one auto-reaction that was the most responsible for the drowning was a set of neck and upper back muscles that contracted and forced the victims head back, uncontrollably, and as a result open the esophagus passage, resulting in an immediate engorgement of water; and that resulted in immediate catastrophic drowning. Actually no chance of making IT after that first few seconds. Now, picture that instant when you know you are going in. Flay your arms, shout for help, and look UP. Very bad choice of reactions. Scuba divers are instructed to keep their heads lowered when entering the water, of course to keep their face masks attached, but still until normal breathing rhythms are established while entering and adjusting to the temperature climax. Ask yourselves what you do normally when you step into the cold, you "hunch" you shoulders. This reaction when taken to extreme will demonstrate what the medical people suggested with their conclusion. And so, if you do see yourself entering cold water: CHIN AGAINST THE CHEST, AND IF POSSIBLE, A SLOW MODEST (VERY SLIGHT BUT AFFIRMATIVE) EXHALE TO KEEP RANDOM WATER FROM ENTERING YOUR BREATHING PASSAGES. Now I am certain there will be numerous experts in this area who will disagree. There always is around here. Also, I would question that local axiom that because of the salinity a person cannot sink. Maybe at 20% salinity. The latest estimate I have heard is that the lake is down to 9% - 11%. I'll let the experts tell us if we are still in unsinkable mode on the GLS waters. Cheers, Rocky and Ray RUNAWAY MY NEW E-MAIL IS < sail.ray@att.net > ------- End of forwarded message ------- -- David Oswald / doswald@xmission.com / http://www.xmission.com/~doswald Thus the whirligig of time brings in his revenges. -- William Shakespeare * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Taciturn Subject: (utah-sailing) GSL News: Antlp Is. Date: 01 Nov 1999 12:23:00 -0700 New Trail to Frary Peak. Click here for Deseret News article: http://deseretnews.com:80/dn/view/1,1249,125012168,00.html? History and Background on Frarys. Click here for this Deseret News article: http://deseretnews.com:80/dn/view/1,1249,125012122,00.html Pat Swigart "Why bring weather you would rather be in out of up for?" * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Taciturn Subject: (utah-sailing) Josh Church Accident Date: 01 Nov 1999 13:51:23 -0700 We were pretty shocked yesterday to hear that the ever-cheerful Josh Church of "Island Girl" on K-Dock has been seriously injured in a Ski-Lift machinery accident at his job. The wheel caused quite severe injury to his leg, we were told by close friends Dudley and Stephanie of "Copacetic" also of K-Dock. We thought of Josh's other sailing friends who might not have heard the sad news but whould certainly like to get in touch or send gifts or regards. We were informed that he is in the LDS Hospital. Get well soon, Josh, you will be sorely missed by many! We look forward to your return! Pat and Jackie Swigart "Taciturn" K-Dock "Why bring weather you would rather be in out of up for?" * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eugene Morgan Subject: RE: (utah-sailing) GSL Marina Slip Renters Date: 01 Nov 1999 12:53:28 -0800 Wow! However, Highwire will still be looking for a crew of crazies for the PB Cup. Paul, your usual place on my crew has been reserved. I do have jack lines and harnesses and lanyards for five. As someone else suggested, the best thing is to be proactive and do what is needful to keep all hands in the boat. Swimming is not an option. -----Original Message----- Sent: Saturday, October 30, 1999 9:42 AM A wetsuit could save your life, but it's kind of bulky to wear when you don't really intend to get wet. You still stand a chance of frostbite on your extremities, as a friend of mine can attest. A dry suit would probably be easier to wear conventional layers of clothing under and move around, but they're kind of pricey for someone with my budget. I really like wool or polar fleece and some windproofing. Wool and Polar Fleece still insulate when wet, but they will weigh you down. To relate a war story; a couple college friends of mine sea-kayaked out to Antelope in November of '88 (or maybe '87). Back before the causeway reopened, anyway. Pete had a farmer john wetsuit on. Mark borrowed a drysuit but wasn't wearing it as temperatures were mild and they didn't intend to go in the water. I'm guessing the lake temp was probably in the low 40s F, air temp was probably about the same (feel's warm on a cold winter day!). The drysuit probably seemed like overkill... Well, they went over and couldn't get back in the kayak until they drifted up on the causeway. By then, Mark was delirious and Pete said he couldn't even straighten Mark's legs. By the time Pete walked to the car to get help (no radio!) and they life flighted Mark off the causeway, he was brain dead. His parents had them pull the plug. Pete suffered very painful frostbite on his toes and ankles, and his body temperature was down but not critical. Mark was one of those "indestructible" outdoor types. He loved any outdoor adventure and was equipped mentally, physically, and with man-made gear for about anything. That one quick decision not to wear the drysuit did him in, unfortunately. This certainly isn't meant to discourage winter sailing... I've had the Finn out there in January, February, and March and it is beautiful. I'd love to come out on someone's keel boat this winter, and the Polar Bear race sounds great to me. Like others have said, though, a bad decision could leave you dead; plan for the worst and hope for the best. Paul Doubek Kurt Simpson wrote: > > Thanks for all the replies on winter sailing. What are the safest ways to > keep a warm cabin? What about wearing a wet suit? Perhaps both are > overkill... * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alyxandra K. MacLeod" Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Josh Church Accident Date: 01 Nov 1999 13:55:49 -0700 Do you know what room he's in, so we can send him something to wish him the best? If so that would be great. Thanks for saying, I didn't know he'd been hurt. Cynthia -- LucyBlue@Softhome.net ICQ #10306498 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Elsinore Lucilla Aurelius Smooth Blue Collie http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Cabana/4637 Moon Shyne Catalina 22 - #5315 - GSL Utah http://www.angelfire.com/pq/LucyBlue * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: meek@eng.utah.edu (Sanford Meek) Subject: RE: (utah-sailing) GSL Marina Slip Renters Date: 01 Nov 1999 14:13:42 -0700 At 12:53 11/1/99 -0800, Eugene Morgan wrote: >Wow! However, Highwire will still be looking for a crew of crazies for the >PB Cup. Paul, your usual place on my crew has been reserved. I do have >jack lines and harnesses and lanyards for five. As someone else suggested, >the best thing is to be proactive and do what is needful to keep all hands >in the boat. Swimming is not an option. Gene, I'm crazy (dumb, foolish, off medication, you name it) to go. Sandy Sanford Meek Dept. of Mechanical Engineering University of Utah meek@mech.utah.edu * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eugene Morgan Subject: (utah-sailing) Winter Sailing and the Polar Bear Cup Date: 01 Nov 1999 13:56:11 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF24B3.E90B6FD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" As many of you are aware the GSLYC is hosting the first ever Polar Bear Cup the last Saturday of January. Given the discussion that has gone on regarding winter sailing I wanted to ask a question. Behind the scene there has been dialog going on between myself and the current and future race committee regarding lifejackets and safety harnesses. This is the question I'd like to pose. How would you feel if we made the wearing of approved harnesses properly attached to a properly deployed jackline mandatory? Further, that for single-handed boats approved harnesses attached to properly deployed jack line would be mandatory regardless of weather. My thoughts on this are that if the weather is fair that harnesses must be on and jack lines in place as boats check in at the start line. Once checked in the continued wearing of harness attached to jack lines would be at the discretion of the captain. However, the race committee would reserve the option of requiring all crew members to wear a harness at all times if the weather is in that range where a #2 or #3 head sail are the order of the day. The intention here is that if the weather is less that fine all crew members would have at least taken the first step toward saving their lives and the YC would have followed a "standard of care" appropriate to the event being held. We can get into "approved" and "properly deployed" later. Before we get into these specifics I'd like feedback on the general question posed above. Your comments please.... ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF24B3.E90B6FD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

As many of you are aware the GSLYC is hosting the first ever = Polar Bear Cup the last Saturday of January.  Given the discussion that has gone on regarding winter sailing I = wanted to ask a question.  = Behind the scene there has been dialog going on between myself and the current and = future race committee regarding lifejackets and safety harnesses.  This is the question I’d like to = pose.

 

=

How would you feel if we made the wearing of approved harnesses = properly attached to a properly deployed jackline mandatory?  Further, that for single-handed boats approved = harnesses attached to properly deployed jack line would be mandatory regardless = of weather.

 

=

My thoughts on this are that if the weather is fair that = harnesses must be on and jack lines in place as boats check in at the start line.  Once checked in the continued = wearing of harness attached to jack lines would be at the discretion of the = captain.  However, the race committee = would reserve the option of requiring all crew members to wear a harness at = all times if the weather is in that range where a #2 or #3 head sail are the = order of the day.  The intention here = is that if the weather is less that fine all crew members would have at least = taken the first step toward saving their lives and the YC would have followed a = “standard of care” appropriate to the event being held.  We can get into “approved” and = “properly deployed” later.  Before we get = into these specifics I’d like feedback on the general question posed = above.

 

=

Your comments please…. 

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01BF24B3.E90B6FD0-- * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Justin Lee Subject: RE: (utah-sailing) Winter Sailing and the Polar Bear Cup Date: 01 Nov 1999 15:50:15 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF24BB.77D85014 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" It makes sense and I know many clubs on the coast are now requiring lifejackets however has the club considered the liability issues associated with such a rule? Most race instructions include the following paragraph; Owners Responsibility The safety of a yacht and her crew is the sole and inescapable responsibility of the owner; who must do his/her best to ensure the yacht is fully sound, thoroughly seaworthy, and manned by an experienced crew, who are physically fit to face bad weather. The captain must be satisfied as to the soundness of the hull, spars, rigging, sails, and all sail gear. The captain must also insure that all safety equipment is properly maintained and stowed, and that the crew is informed as to where it is kept, and how it is to be used. Neither the establishment of these regulations, inspection of a yacht under these regulations, in any way limits or reduces the complete and unlimited responsibility of the owner. It is the sole and exclusive responsibility of each yacht to decide whether or not to start or continue to race. -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 2:56 PM As many of you are aware the GSLYC is hosting the first ever Polar Bear Cup the last Saturday of January. Given the discussion that has gone on regarding winter sailing I wanted to ask a question. Behind the scene there has been dialog going on between myself and the current and future race committee regarding lifejackets and safety harnesses. This is the question I'd like to pose. How would you feel if we made the wearing of approved harnesses properly attached to a properly deployed jackline mandatory? Further, that for single-handed boats approved harnesses attached to properly deployed jack line would be mandatory regardless of weather. My thoughts on this are that if the weather is fair that harnesses must be on and jack lines in place as boats check in at the start line. Once checked in the continued wearing of harness attached to jack lines would be at the discretion of the captain. However, the race committee would reserve the option of requiring all crew members to wear a harness at all times if the weather is in that range where a #2 or #3 head sail are the order of the day. The intention here is that if the weather is less that fine all crew members would have at least taken the first step toward saving their lives and the YC would have followed a "standard of care" appropriate to the event being held. We can get into "approved" and "properly deployed" later. Before we get into these specifics I'd like feedback on the general question posed above. Your comments please.... ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF24BB.77D85014 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
It makes sense and I know many clubs on the coast are now requiring lifejackets however has the club considered the liability issues associated with such a rule? Most race instructions include the following paragraph;
 
Owners Responsibility
   The safety of a yacht and her crew is the sole and inescapable responsibility of the owner; who must do his/her best to ensure the yacht is fully sound, thoroughly seaworthy, and manned by an experienced crew, who are physically fit to face bad weather. The captain must be satisfied as to the soundness of the hull, spars, rigging, sails, and all sail gear. The captain must also insure that all safety equipment is properly maintained and stowed, and that the crew is informed as to where it is kept, and how it is to be used. Neither the establishment of these regulations, inspection of a yacht under these regulations, in any way limits or reduces the complete and unlimited responsibility of the owner. It is the sole and exclusive responsibility of each yacht to decide whether or not to start or continue to race.
-----Original Message-----
From: Eugene Morgan [mailto:emorgan@microsoft.com]
Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 2:56 PM
To: Utah Sailing e-mail List (E-mail)
Subject: (utah-sailing) Winter Sailing and the Polar Bear Cup

As many of you are aware the GSLYC is hosting the first ever Polar Bear Cup the last Saturday of January.  Given the discussion that has gone on regarding winter sailing I wanted to ask a question.  Behind the scene there has been dialog going on between myself and the current and future race committee regarding lifejackets and safety harnesses.  This is the question I’d like to pose.

 

How would you feel if we made the wearing of approved harnesses properly attached to a properly deployed jackline mandatory?  Further, that for single-handed boats approved harnesses attached to properly deployed jack line would be mandatory regardless of weather.

 

My thoughts on this are that if the weather is fair that harnesses must be on and jack lines in place as boats check in at the start line.  Once checked in the continued wearing of harness attached to jack lines would be at the discretion of the captain.  However, the race committee would reserve the option of requiring all crew members to wear a harness at all times if the weather is in that range where a #2 or #3 head sail are the order of the day.  The intention here is that if the weather is less that fine all crew members would have at least taken the first step toward saving their lives and the YC would have followed a “standard of care” appropriate to the event being held.  We can get into “approved” and “properly deployed” later.  Before we get into these specifics I’d like feedback on the general question posed above.

 

Your comments please…. 

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01BF24BB.77D85014-- * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: meek@eng.utah.edu (Sanford Meek) Subject: RE: (utah-sailing) Winter Sailing and the Polar Bear Cup Date: 01 Nov 1999 16:15:01 -0700 At 15:50 11/1/99 -0700, Justin Lee wrote: >It makes sense and I know many clubs on the coast are now requiring >lifejackets however has the club considered the liability issues associated >with such a rule? Most race instructions include the following paragraph; > This would not be any different to bike clubs and races requiring helmets and car clubs requiring four-point quick-release seat belts, helmets, and Nomex suits for autocrosses. They also have assumptions of owner's resposibility of soundness of bikes and cars. You also sign releases not that they mean much. Sandy Sanford Meek Dept. of Mechanical Engineering University of Utah meek@mech.utah.edu * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jan Kitts Subject: (utah-sailing) RE: (Utah-sailing) Winter Sailing and the Polar Bear Cup Date: 01 Nov 1999 16:19:24 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF24BF.89282048 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" As a potential crew for this event, I am concerned that rigid requirements will adversely affect participation. I also have a few questions: What are the possible costs related to this once a year event, I.e. how much is a harness? How much would it cost to properly outfit a typical racing boat? Are we talking buoy races, or an offshore? During my several years of sailing in various GSLYC sponsored events, I have yet to see or hear about someone falling overboard. Deliberately jumping, yes, but no MOB. Of course, Murphy's Law dictates that in all probability, this would be the event. I was rather excited when I first heard about the Polar Bear Cup, but personally, I'm not sure I'd be willing to spend a lot of money for a harness and such for this one event. Also, I won't say that I am a fair weather sailor, but knowing the hazards of sailing in cold water, I would be very reticent to go out in any but the best conditions. The only thing that might push me to re-consider, and possibly make a bad judgement call, would be the fact that I had spent money (harness) to be able to sail in this event. -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Eugene Morgan Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 2:56 PM As many of you are aware the GSLYC is hosting the first ever Polar Bear Cup the last Saturday of January. Given the discussion that has gone on regarding winter sailing I wanted to ask a question. Behind the scene there has been dialog going on between myself and the current and future race committee regarding lifejackets and safety harnesses. This is the question I'd like to pose. How would you feel if we made the wearing of approved harnesses properly attached to a properly deployed jackline mandatory? Further, that for single-handed boats approved harnesses attached to properly deployed jack line would be mandatory regardless of weather. My thoughts on this are that if the weather is fair that harnesses must be on and jack lines in place as boats check in at the start line. Once checked in the continued wearing of harness attached to jack lines would be at the discretion of the captain. However, the race committee would reserve the option of requiring all crew members to wear a harness at all times if the weather is in that range where a #2 or #3 head sail are the order of the day. The intention here is that if the weather is less that fine all crew members would have at least taken the first step toward saving their lives and the YC would have followed a "standard of care" appropriate to the event being held. We can get into "approved" and "properly deployed" later. Before we get into these specifics I'd like feedback on the general question posed above. Your comments please.... ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF24BF.89282048 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As a=20 potential crew for this event, I am concerned that rigid requirements = will=20 adversely affect participation.  I also have a few questions: What = are the=20 possible costs related to this once a year event, I.e. how much is a=20 harness?  How much would it cost to properly outfit a typical = racing=20 boat?  Are we talking buoy races, or an = offshore?
 
During=20 my several years of sailing in various GSLYC sponsored events, I have = yet to see=20 or hear about someone falling overboard.  Deliberately jumping, = yes, but no=20 MOB.  Of course, Murphy's Law dictates that in all probability, = this would=20 be the event.  I was rather excited when I first heard about the = Polar Bear=20 Cup, but personally, I'm not sure I'd be willing to spend a lot of = money for a=20 harness and such for this one event.  Also, I won't say that I am = a fair=20 weather sailor, but knowing the hazards of sailing in cold water, I = would be=20 very reticent to go out in any but the best conditions.  The only = thing=20 that might push me to re-consider, and possibly make a bad judgement = call, would=20 be the fact that I had spent money (harness) to be able to sail in this = event.
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com=20 [mailto:owner-utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of = Eugene=20 Morgan
Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 2:56 = PM
To: Utah=20 Sailing e-mail List (E-mail)
Subject: (utah-sailing) = Winter=20 Sailing and the Polar Bear Cup

As=20 many of you are aware the GSLYC is hosting the first ever Polar = Bear Cup the=20 last Saturday of January.  = Given=20 the discussion that has gone on regarding winter sailing I wanted = to ask a=20 question.  Behind the = scene=20 there has been dialog going on between myself and the current and = future=20 race committee regarding lifejackets and safety harnesses.  This is the question = I’d like=20 to pose.

 

=

How=20 would you feel if we made the wearing of approved harnesses = properly=20 attached to a properly deployed jackline mandatory?  Further, that for = single-handed=20 boats approved harnesses attached to properly deployed jack line = would be=20 mandatory regardless of = weather.

 

=

My=20 thoughts on this are that if the weather is fair that harnesses = must be on=20 and jack lines in place as boats check in at the start line.  Once checked in the = continued=20 wearing of harness attached to jack lines would be at the = discretion of the=20 captain.  However, = the race=20 committee would reserve the option of requiring all crew members to = wear a=20 harness at all times if the weather is in that range where a #2 or = #3 head=20 sail are the order of the day. =20 The intention here is that if the weather is less that fine = all crew=20 members would have at least taken the first step toward saving = their lives=20 and the YC would have followed a “standard of care” = appropriate=20 to the event being held.  = We can=20 get into “approved” and “properly deployed” = later.  Before we get = into these=20 specifics I’d like feedback on the general question posed=20 above.

 

=

Your=20 comments please…. =20

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01BF24BF.89282048-- * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eugene Morgan Subject: RE: (utah-sailing) Winter Sailing and the Polar Bear Cup Date: 01 Nov 1999 15:22:29 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF24BF.FE058E96 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Yes, I've consider the paragraph considerably and it's good that you brought it up. Thanks. The bigger problem is the first point you made in your e-mail, other clubs has changed the "standard of care". If we follow examples set by others then it follows that the bar has been raised regarding "standard of care." This being said then are we negligent by not following their example? But if we do what we've always done have we also followed an acceptable standard of care and does the paragraph exonerate us? It's a rather interesting situation. I should also say that even having participants sign an acknowledgement of risk or a release form doesn't protect the YC if the YC has been found to be negligent. Is not requiring harnesses to be worn negligent? There are those that would say yes and those that would say no, provided that at a minimum we required such safety equipment be available to each member of the crew. As a skipper I really resent being told how things will be done on MY boat. But as a person interesting in hosting a race that has done due diligence in setting an acceptable standard of care then the answer becomes clearer. Besides given that I personally know most of the potential participant and I know them to be some of the best sailors in the state I would have a difficult time if anyone of my friends died for the lack of a harness. Each is a unique and special person. Justin, thanks for your feedback. It's a very valid question to consider. -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 3:50 PM It makes sense and I know many clubs on the coast are now requiring lifejackets however has the club considered the liability issues associated with such a rule? Most race instructions include the following paragraph; Owners Responsibility The safety of a yacht and her crew is the sole and inescapable responsibility of the owner; who must do his/her best to ensure the yacht is fully sound, thoroughly seaworthy, and manned by an experienced crew, who are physically fit to face bad weather. The captain must be satisfied as to the soundness of the hull, spars, rigging, sails, and all sail gear. The captain must also insure that all safety equipment is properly maintained and stowed, and that the crew is informed as to where it is kept, and how it is to be used. Neither the establishment of these regulations, inspection of a yacht under these regulations, in any way limits or reduces the complete and unlimited responsibility of the owner. It is the sole and exclusive responsibility of each yacht to decide whether or not to start or continue to race. -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 2:56 PM As many of you are aware the GSLYC is hosting the first ever Polar Bear Cup the last Saturday of January. Given the discussion that has gone on regarding winter sailing I wanted to ask a question. Behind the scene there has been dialog going on between myself and the current and future race committee regarding lifejackets and safety harnesses. This is the question I'd like to pose. How would you feel if we made the wearing of approved harnesses properly attached to a properly deployed jackline mandatory? Further, that for single-handed boats approved harnesses attached to properly deployed jack line would be mandatory regardless of weather. My thoughts on this are that if the weather is fair that harnesses must be on and jack lines in place as boats check in at the start line. Once checked in the continued wearing of harness attached to jack lines would be at the discretion of the captain. However, the race committee would reserve the option of requiring all crew members to wear a harness at all times if the weather is in that range where a #2 or #3 head sail are the order of the day. The intention here is that if the weather is less that fine all crew members would have at least taken the first step toward saving their lives and the YC would have followed a "standard of care" appropriate to the event being held. We can get into "approved" and "properly deployed" later. Before we get into these specifics I'd like feedback on the general question posed above. Your comments please.... ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF24BF.FE058E96 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Y= es, I’ve consider the paragraph considerably and it’s good that you = brought it up.  Thanks.  The bigger problem is the first point you made in = your e-mail, other clubs has changed the “standard of = care”.  If we follow examples set by = others then it follows that the bar has been raised regarding “standard of = care.”   This being said then are = we negligent by not following their example?  But if we do what we’ve always done have we also followed = an acceptable standard of care and does the paragraph exonerate = us?

<= ![if = !supportEmptyParas]> 

=

I= t’s a rather interesting situation.  = I should also say that even having participants sign an acknowledgement = of risk or a release form doesn’t protect the YC if the YC has been found = to be negligent.  Is not requiring harnesses to = be worn negligent?  There are those that would = say yes and those that would say no, provided that at a minimum we required such = safety equipment be available to each member of the = crew.

<= ![if = !supportEmptyParas]> 

=

A= s a skipper I really resent being told how things will be done on MY = boat.  But as a person interesting = in hosting a race that has done due diligence in setting an acceptable standard of = care then the answer becomes clearer.  Besides given that I personally know most of the potential participant and I = know them to be some of the best sailors in the state I would have a difficult = time if anyone of my friends died for the lack of a harness.  Each is a unique and special = person.

<= ![if = !supportEmptyParas]> 

=

J= ustin, thanks for your feedback. It’s a very valid question to = consider.

<= ![if = !supportEmptyParas]> 

=

-----Original Message-----
From: Justin Lee [mailto:jlee@ikon-us.com]
Sent: Monday, November = 01, 1999 3:50 PM
To: = 'utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com'
Subject: RE: = (utah-sailing) Winter Sailing and the Polar Bear Cup

 

It makes sense and I know many clubs on the coast are now = requiring lifejackets however has the club considered the liability issues = associated with such a rule? Most race instructions include the following = paragraph;=

 =

Owners Responsibility
   The safety of a yacht and her crew is the sole and = inescapable responsibility of the owner; who must do his/her best to ensure the = yacht is fully sound, thoroughly seaworthy, and manned by an experienced crew, = who are physically fit to face bad weather. The captain must be satisfied as to = the soundness of the hull, spars, rigging, sails, and all sail gear. = The captain must also insure that all safety equipment is properly = maintained and stowed, and that the crew is informed as to where it is kept, and = how it is to be used. Neither the establishment of these regulations, = inspection of a yacht under these regulations, in any way limits or reduces the = complete and unlimited responsibility of the owner. It is the sole and exclusive responsibility of each yacht to decide whether or not to start or = continue to race.

-----Original Message-----
From: Eugene Morgan [mailto:emorgan@microsoft.com]
Sent: Monday, November = 01, 1999 2:56 PM
To: Utah Sailing e-mail = List (E-mail)
Subject: (utah-sailing) = Winter Sailing and the Polar Bear Cup

As many of you are = aware the GSLYC is hosting the first ever Polar Bear Cup the last Saturday of January.  Given the = discussion that has gone on regarding winter sailing I wanted to ask a question.  Behind the scene there has = been dialog going on between myself and the current and future race committee = regarding lifejackets and safety harnesses.  This is the question I’d like to = pose.

 

=

How would you feel = if we made the wearing of approved harnesses properly attached to a properly = deployed jackline mandatory?  = Further, that for single-handed boats approved harnesses attached to properly = deployed jack line would be mandatory regardless of = weather.

 

=

My thoughts on this = are that if the weather is fair that harnesses must be on and jack lines in = place as boats check in at the start line.  Once checked in the continued wearing of harness attached to = jack lines would be at the discretion of the captain.  However, the race committee would reserve the option = of requiring all crew members to wear a harness at all times if the = weather is in that range where a #2 or #3 head sail are the order of the day.  The intention here is that if = the weather is less that fine all crew members would have at least taken = the first step toward saving their lives and the YC would have followed a = “standard of care” appropriate to the event being held.  We can get into “approved” and = “properly deployed” later.  Before we get into these = specifics I’d like feedback on the general question posed = above.

 

=

Your comments = please….  =

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01BF24BF.FE058E96-- * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eugene Morgan Subject: RE: (utah-sailing) RE: (Utah-sailing) Winter Sailing and the Pola Date: 01 Nov 1999 15:42:38 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF24C2.CB523622 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" I don't have a catalog in front of me but I think a harness with lanyard would be in the $60.00 dollar range. Of course there may be cheaper ways and I know there are more expensive alternatives. I also agree that it might impact participation. But it should be clear this race is for the hardcore and not for the casual sailor. Jan, please understand I'm making no inferences regarding whether your hardcore I not. Having sailed with you, I know you're hardcore when it comes to sailing. As to your other question this will be an offshore. Although the course has not been determined, best case it would be from J to Meria, to Eardley to Deep channel to J. As to weather, consider this to be sailboat racing at the extreme, at least as extreme as you can get on the GSL. The plan at this point is that if the committee boat can get to the start line and if more than two boats can start within 15 minutes of the red flag it's a race. Weather will not be a consideration. Also know that GPS and a functioning radio will be required as checkin's may require a radio transmission and acknowledgement. If it turns out that these requirements are too ridge then we'll not hold the race. I want to follow common sense practices. Racing in January can be a deadly serious business. So far we've not made a determination as to if the wearing of harnesses will be required. However I can say that at a minimum they will be required to have on board. Good questions.... Thanks Jan. BTW: I hope you will come out from time to time this winter and go with us. You know you are always welcome on Highwire. Captain Morgan -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 4:19 PM Cup As a potential crew for this event, I am concerned that rigid requirements will adversely affect participation. I also have a few questions: What are the possible costs related to this once a year event, I.e. how much is a harness? How much would it cost to properly outfit a typical racing boat? Are we talking buoy races, or an offshore? During my several years of sailing in various GSLYC sponsored events, I have yet to see or hear about someone falling overboard. Deliberately jumping, yes, but no MOB. Of course, Murphy's Law dictates that in all probability, this would be the event. I was rather excited when I first heard about the Polar Bear Cup, but personally, I'm not sure I'd be willing to spend a lot of money for a harness and such for this one event. Also, I won't say that I am a fair weather sailor, but knowing the hazards of sailing in cold water, I would be very reticent to go out in any but the best conditions. The only thing that might push me to re-consider, and possibly make a bad judgement call, would be the fact that I had spent money (harness) to be able to sail in this event. -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Eugene Morgan Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 2:56 PM As many of you are aware the GSLYC is hosting the first ever Polar Bear Cup the last Saturday of January. Given the discussion that has gone on regarding winter sailing I wanted to ask a question. Behind the scene there has been dialog going on between myself and the current and future race committee regarding lifejackets and safety harnesses. This is the question I'd like to pose. How would you feel if we made the wearing of approved harnesses properly attached to a properly deployed jackline mandatory? Further, that for single-handed boats approved harnesses attached to properly deployed jack line would be mandatory regardless of weather. My thoughts on this are that if the weather is fair that harnesses must be on and jack lines in place as boats check in at the start line. Once checked in the continued wearing of harness attached to jack lines would be at the discretion of the captain. However, the race committee would reserve the option of requiring all crew members to wear a harness at all times if the weather is in that range where a #2 or #3 head sail are the order of the day. The intention here is that if the weather is less that fine all crew members would have at least taken the first step toward saving their lives and the YC would have followed a "standard of care" appropriate to the event being held. We can get into "approved" and "properly deployed" later. Before we get into these specifics I'd like feedback on the general question posed above. Your comments please.... ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF24C2.CB523622 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I= don’t have a catalog in front of me but I think a harness with lanyard would = be in the $60.00 dollar range.  = Of course there may be cheaper ways and I know there are more expensive = alternatives.  I also agree that it might = impact participation.  But it = should be clear this race is for the hardcore and not for the casual sailor.  Jan, please understand = I’m making no inferences regarding whether your hardcore I not.  Having sailed with you, I know you’re hardcore when it = comes to sailing.

<= ![if = !supportEmptyParas]> 

=

A= s to your other question this will be an offshore.  Although the course has not been determined, best case it would = be from J to Meria, to Eardley to Deep channel to = J.

<= ![if = !supportEmptyParas]> 

=

A= s to weather, consider this to be sailboat racing at the extreme, at least = as extreme as you can get on the GSL.  The plan at this point is that if the committee boat can get to = the start line and if more than two boats can start within 15 minutes of = the red flag it’s a race.  = Weather will not be a consideration.  Also = know that GPS and a functioning radio will be required as checkin’s may = require a radio transmission and acknowledgement.  If it turns out that these requirements are too ridge then we’ll not = hold the race.  I want to follow = common sense practices.  Racing = in January can be a deadly serious business.  So far we’ve not made a determination as to if the wearing of = harnesses will be required.  However I can = say that at a minimum they will be required to have on = board.

<= ![if = !supportEmptyParas]> 

=

G= ood questions…. Thanks Jan.

<= ![if = !supportEmptyParas]> 

=

B= TW:  I hope you will come out from = time to time this winter and go with us.  You know you are always welcome on = Highwire.

<= ![if = !supportEmptyParas]> 

=

C= aptain Morgan

<= ![if = !supportEmptyParas]> 

=

<= ![if = !supportEmptyParas]> 

=

<= ![if = !supportEmptyParas]> 

=

-----Original Message-----
From: Jan Kitts [mailto:JanK@oecmed.com]
Sent: Monday, November = 01, 1999 4:19 PM
To: = 'utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com'
Subject: (utah-sailing) = RE: (Utah-sailing) Winter Sailing and the Polar Bear Cup

 

As a potential = crew for this event, I am concerned that rigid requirements will adversely = affect participation.  I also have a few questions: What are the possible = costs related to this once a year event, I.e. how much is a harness?  = How much would it cost to properly outfit a typical racing boat?  Are we talking = buoy races, or an offshore?

 =

During my = several years of sailing in various GSLYC sponsored events, I have yet to see or hear = about someone falling overboard.  Deliberately jumping, yes, but no = MOB.  Of course, Murphy's Law dictates that in all probability, this would be = the event.  I was rather excited when I first heard about the Polar = Bear Cup, but personally, I'm not sure I'd be willing to spend a lot of money for = a harness and such for this one event.  Also, I won't say that I am = a fair weather sailor, but knowing the hazards of sailing in cold water, I = would be very reticent to go out in any but the best conditions.  The only = thing that might push me to re-consider, and possibly make a bad judgement = call, would be the fact that I had spent money (harness) to be able to sail = in this event.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Eugene Morgan
Sent: Monday, November = 01, 1999 2:56 PM
To: Utah Sailing e-mail = List (E-mail)
Subject: (utah-sailing) = Winter Sailing and the Polar Bear Cup=

As many of you are aware the GSLYC is hosting = the first ever Polar Bear Cup the last Saturday of January.  Given the discussion that has = gone on regarding winter sailing I wanted to ask a question.  Behind the scene there has been dialog going on = between myself and the current and future race committee regarding lifejackets = and safety harnesses.  This is the = question I’d like to pose.

 

=

How would you feel if we made the wearing of = approved harnesses properly attached to a properly deployed jackline = mandatory?  Further, that for = single-handed boats approved harnesses attached to properly deployed jack line would be = mandatory regardless of weather.

 

=

My thoughts on this are that if the weather = is fair that harnesses must be on and jack lines in place as boats check in at = the start line.  Once checked = in the continued wearing of harness attached to jack lines would be at the = discretion of the captain.  However, = the race committee would reserve the option of requiring all crew members to = wear a harness at all times if the weather is in that range where a #2 or #3 = head sail are the order of the day.  = The intention here is that if the weather is less that fine all crew = members would have at least taken the first step toward saving their lives and the YC = would have followed a “standard of care” appropriate to the event = being held.  We can get into = “approved” and “properly deployed” later.  Before we get into these specifics I’d like feedback on the general = question posed above.

 

=

Your comments please…. 

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01BF24C2.CB523622-- * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TMartin316@aol.com Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Josh Church Accident Date: 01 Nov 1999 18:56:25 EST Hello, I visited Josh (and LL) Sat AM on our way out of town, and he was in good spirits all things considered. He was to have a major knee/hip operation today. I have not checked in to see how it went. I'm sure he would appreciate any cards or flowers, etc. that friends wish to send. I really don't think that he could handle a lot of phone calls or visitors right now though. I might be wrong, but he's pretty sore and 'druged-up'. He needs lots of rest. If all went well, he should be out of LDS Hosp. in 7 to 10 days. I know that he wanted to stay low regarding this 'boo-boo''. He's never been one to search for the spot-light. Since most everyone knows about it by now, I feel that it's ok to share what I know. My thoughts are with you Josh!! Terry * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: meek@eng.utah.edu (Sanford Meek) Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) RE: (Utah-sailing) Winter Sailing and the Polar Bear Cup Date: 01 Nov 1999 17:00:02 -0700 At 16:19 11/1/99 -0700, Jan Kitts wrote: >As a potential crew for this event, I am concerned that rigid requirements >will adversely affect participation. I also have a few questions: What are >the possible costs related to this once a year event, I.e. how much is a >harness? $40 for a West Marine. I have one of these although the D-ring bent in the recent Practical Sailor tests and review. Up to $150 or more for a harness/inflatable PDF type. Also figure on the tethers at about $20 to $50. Wait until the next Practical Sailor issue where tethers are reviewed and 40% of those tested failed. How much would it cost to properly outfit a typical racing boat? The jack lines aren't all that expensive and if you put them in yourself, not too expensive to install probably less than $200 depending on the number and length of the jacklines. Sandy Sanford Meek Dept. of Mechanical Engineering University of Utah meek@mech.utah.edu * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bradsilve1@aol.com Subject: Fwd: (utah-sailing) RE: (Utah-sailing) Winter Sailing and the Polar Date: 01 Nov 1999 23:24:02 EST --part1_0.c09949cd.254fc162_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I would like to ask a few questions about what you would do in the following situation: It is July and the wind is blowing about 15 knots. Your boat speed is around 6 knots and you have your spinnaker up. The waves are about one to two feet high and it is 11:00 O'clock at night and there is no moon. Would you allow your crew not to wear life jackets? Would you allow your crew not to wear a safety harness? Would you let your crew decide for themselves whether or not to wear a life jacket or harness? Would you require that your crew wear a safety harness when they are on Deck only? Would you require that you crew wear a safety harness only when on deck handling sails? Would you require that they wear a safety harness at all times? Would you require that they wear a life jacket and safety harness at all times? It is January 1, 2000 and the wind is blowing about 5 knots, your boat speed is around 2 knots and you have your spinnaker up. There are no waves and the water temp. is 26 degrees the air temp. is 55 degrees. Not a cloud in site. Would you allow your crew not to wear life jackets? Would you allow your crew not to wear a safety harness? Would you let your crew decide for themselves whether or not to wear a life jacket or harness? Would you require that your crew wear a safety harness when they are on Deck only? Would you require that you crew wear a safety harness only when on deck handling sails? Would you require that they wear a safety harness at all times? Would you require that they wear a life jacket and safety harness at all times? Remember that each one of these situations could mean a possible good story around the campfire or a life or death situation. As a skipper you have the oblation to make sure that the correct decisions are made. Because if anything goes wrong on your boat you are responsible. I look forward to your comments. Brad Silver * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Oswald" Subject: (utah-sailing) Sailing risks Date: 01 Nov 1999 23:03:14 -0700 I sure hope that all this discussion about the risks of winter sailing and/or sailing at night doesn't dissuade everyone from the activities. My hope is that we all take notice of the risks and take the steps necessary to reduce risk, without abandoning the sport altogether. Let's do what we can to insure that nobody gets hurt, and then let's be sure to have fun. Regarding the Polar Bear race, I would feel like my crew is safe if those on deck were required to wear a harness, and those in the cockpit were required to wear a life jacket. It's pretty near impossible to lose someone overboard from inside the cockpit of a Catalina 25. If the decision were left to me as the skipper of the boat I would accept that arrangement; harnesses on deck and jackets in the cockpit. As for night sailing (in the summertime) I try to implement the following practices: In mild weather, life jackets should be used on the deck. In heavy weather life jackets should be used by all crew, on the deck or in the cockpit. I like to also put a strobe on deck crew, especially in bad weather. I have a couple of them for that purpose. Winter night sailing: burrrrrrrrr. I'll pass on that. VHF Radios: I wouldn't venture far without one regardless of the time of year. GPS: I've never seen the lake foggy enough to necessitate the use of a GPS, though they are useful when trying to make a fairly exacting waypoint. I use one to aid in planning long tacks, and to insure that I'm keeping up the optimal course. As a safety item I see GPS useful in situations where a boater needs to communicate his position accurately so that he can receive assistance. I saw this a week or so ago on Lake Mead: a stranded boater couldn't describe where he was well enough to be rescued. But then we happened to see a boat meeting his description dead ahead. We sailed near him and read his coordinates off of the GPS to assist the rescue boat in finding the distressed boat. (He was a power-boater; probably just out of gas). Dave -- David Oswald / doswald@xmission.com / http://www.xmission.com/~doswald Thus the whirligig of time brings in his revenges. -- William Shakespeare * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Tostado Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Sailing risks Date: 02 Nov 1999 09:59:39 -0700 Very good input coming from the rank and file racers and owners. The basics are evident and everyone is focused on what the process should look like during such an event as the Mid-Winter Polar Bear Cup. My habit when pondering such hypothetical circumstances is to simplify the event's hazards into the most fundamental and indisputable factors. Here is what I find; in a somewhat non ordered priority.. If you should fall into the GSL water, at 32 degrees or below, during daylight and full unrestricted visibility your chances of survival are maybe 70-80%%, given that you will be rescued within 5 minutes or less. But at that time you will be into clinical distress and need immediate medical assistance ( Polar Bears, sea lions, penguins, seals, excluded) This means that 1 to 2 in /10 will die before medical assistance can be implemented. Should immersion occur during night time hours with limited visibility, rescue within 5 minutes would be in question. 10 minutes of immersion places the chances of survival at 0% to 3%. If the water temperature is the same 32 degrees or less, the victim by this time will be unable to assist in the rescue. The night time circumstance preclude that the rescue will be performed without flaw because the victim carries a proper floatation device, is in good to excellent health, carries a stobe or light beacon of some sort, the rescue crew is experienced with such acts, the sea conditions do not contribute to a difficult rescue. If all of the above ideal rescue conditions are in effect, still the chances are very strong that grave health problems will be in process and medical assistance is critical. I have personally been involved in dealing with rescues and ship to ship personnel movements at sea in calm as well as very grim conditions. I have first hand advice to those who contemplate doing such movements efficiently and without error. Do everything within your power to avoid having to do such, in calm seas or storm conditions. It is not easy. It is certainly not as easy as some of the commercial products advertised and sold as foolproof rescue devices and procedures would lead you to believe. On one rescue a friend and I took my Choate 41, Juarez, out for a balmy Santa Ana mid week spin in 30 knots plus breeze. With one reef and no jib we pumped along at 7 to 10 knots reaching across Santa Monica Bay. The seas were from 8 to 10 feet and and steep. When we left MDR we had noticed three young men on a Hobie 16' blasting up and down the main channel and giving out whoopees as they lifted the hull and screamed across the smooth harbor waters at what must have been 20 knots. An hour and a half later, on out return, as we approached the Marina breakwater entrance we saw a glimpse of that same Hobie, with 3 aboard come blasting out of the entrance at over 10 knots. They got no more than a hundred yards into the steep seas when a gust caught their trampoline and flipped the Hobie back onto it's tail, flinging bodies into the air like rag dolls. It took us no more than 5 minutes to arrive at the overturned Hobie and found two figures clinging to the hulls and rigging. They both wore life jackets, but were very obviously not in control of their senses. My friend and I approached under sail, from leeward. We immediately realized that there was one person missing. We hollered to them about that and they responded with a weak motion towards the third member, without lifejacket, flogging at the water, about 20 yards away. Remember, 10 foot seas give you very limited and periodic vision of things afloat in the water. Keep your eyes on the victim, means exactly what it states. Don't lose sight. Another vessel arrived just moment after us, a friend with another race boat, a Choate 37' who, with two friends, were enjoying the same mid-winter fun of screaming along with the Santa Ana winds. Mid-winter winds also means mid winter water temperatures of mid 50s and below. I signaled to the other boat to attended to the two attached with the over turned Hobie. My friend and I concentrated on the single survivor. We followed a procedure that I had used before and practiced over and over in my mind. 1. Never approach a victim from the windward side. If you lose steerage during rescue you can become a lethal 18,000 sledge hammer and do grave harm if the wind or wave motion carries you onto the victim. With high seas considered, it is nothing for a vessel to "carry" over with a wave and fall uncontrollably in any direction. 2. I carried a 1" line, 50' in length with a 5 foot loop on the end. 1" is easier to grasp that a 3/8" line. ( Also, IOR rules of that period required a weighted 50' hand line capable of being tossed as a "messenger", with the larger line attached. The intrinsic problem with that weighted system is that it sinks, until the floatation of the polyprop line stops it. And, if the victim does not catch it, it might smack him on the noggin.) 3. The goal is to maintain steerage at minimum speed and pass the victim closely, judging the wave set carefully, and fling the looped end to the victim with the instructions to place the loop under the arms, or clip on if he is equipped with such, and then face away from the boat, and hug the chest with both arms. I still submit that under these conditions it is still best to maintain steerage and forward motion. This places the victim in a slight "drag behind" pathway and clear of the bouncing hull that is moving up and down in 10' to 15' arcs. The victim was brought closer then, and only then, was the boat brought to a stall at the same moment that both of us made the extreme effort to pull the victim aboard with one single motion IN HARMONY WITH THE WAVE MOTION AND THE HULL. It is of the gravest importance that the victim not be left slapping against the side of the hull with waves smashing from one side and the boat's inertia of 18k pounds from the other. 4. At no time did I even consider running the engine or engaging the propeller. In my experience it is only another way to possibly injure the victim in the water should the hull shift atop a wave and make contact with the victim. Simple fact, that even using the engine, when at a standstill it is several boat lengths until steerage is attained, precious boat lengths when the boat is unmanageable. It was then that I noticed the victim to be Oriental in race. A problem became evident. While his skin tone should have been yellowish, it was green and turning blue. Without question, given that it was a mid week afternoon in storm warning conditions the coincidence that two experienced ocean racing vessels happened to see the capsize; these three were goners. Another 30 minutes in the water and they would have perished. We were the only two vessels out that afternoon! My friend had called MDR Harbor Patrol and both they and the CG cutter, POINT BRIDGE were blasting out from the harbor entrance racing towards us. With the three victims aboard the two vessels we met with the Harbor Patrol inside the protection of the breakwater and transferred them over. But, I'm sorry to say, I declined the suggestion that we return and recover the Hobie. Not my job. Some 12 years ago a skipper was washed overboard from the deck of Roy Disney's race boat on a return leg from a Vancouver, BC race series. It was mid-night, a watch change had been enacted. Dave Walls, the skipper, was closing the hatch and turning in when he noticed a bad tie on the main reef system. He slid the hatch back, sat on the deck house and was retying the reef. He had unclipped his harness when going below and had not reset it when he returned. A single wave broke over the beam end and washed Dave overboard, his motion stopped only briefly as a fellow crew member struggled to hold on to Dave's outstretch hand. The two hands parted and Dave disappeared into the frothing darkness. It was that quick. Less than one minute, 30 seconds perhaps, of relaxed discipline from an experienced seaman. He was never recovered. The wind was 20 knots, the seas 12' to 18'. With a boat speed of 10 to 15 knots even a hard core team of professionals could not turn about and make any difference in the outcome. No life jacket, no strobe, no chance. So as I read the sincere questions regarding the "if", the "when", the "should" of safety at sea, I wonder if the truth of the matter is really sinking in. You don't stand a chance, if you take a chance. Wear anything that means safe passage. If the cost of staying alive is a factor, change sports, don't blemish ours. I have 5 standard safety harnesses and two IOR harnesses. I will gladly loan them out to any persons who promise to wear them upon leaving the dock and until returning. Cheers, Ray Tostado And his faithful companion, Rocky. * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eugene Morgan Subject: RE: (utah-sailing) RE: (Utah-sailing) Winter Sailing and the Pola Date: 02 Nov 1999 09:14:20 -0800 As always Brad you ask great questions and through your questions you make a good point. As I consider your questions from the perspective of a boat skipper the answers are clear, but it's not that simple, which I'll try to point out. Unfortunately, as a skipper I don't always do the right thing. For example, even though for the Reynolds cup I had the jack lines run and every member of the crew had a safety harness I didn't even suggest they put them on and I probably should have, but I didn't. My point is that I don't always make good decisions when it comes to crew safety and I have lots of reasons why, it's too much hassle, it will slow the boat work down, etc. And I'm sure that I'm not alone when it comes to these issues. Even given your questions I might answer one way now but react differently in the reality of each situation. I use myself as an example and I know that other skipper react the same way. Your next point is about responsibility. Let's explore this a bit. According to maritime law it's generally considered the responsibility of the skipper and the owner, who may or may not be present, to provide a safe and well-maintained ship. And when accidents occur their attention to this responsibility is called into question. In a commercial setting this, based on my limited knowledge, seems to be the case. But now lets change the scene a little and consider another scenario based on what could be a real situation. Fill in the blanks as you wish, it makes little difference to the ultimate outcome as you will see in a moment. It's January, we are racing, the water is ______ degrees and the sky is _____ and there's a _____ wind blowing, and the waves are _______. Joe falls off the boat after: A. Tripping and falling, Joe is kind of a klutz. B. Drinking too much. C. Being hit by the ________. D. Other: _________________________________________ Joe is kind of a big guy and by the time the remaining crew is able to rescue him he has die of the cold. Remember in the case of Joe his survival time was only a minute and 10 seconds; also consider that he took a mouth full of brine as he was hitting the water. Naturally Joe's widow with 3 little kids all under the age of 5 decides that you were negligent because you didn't have the crew properly tethered to the boat. And your insurance company won't bear the responsibility alone so they decide to sue the YC because it was a YC race that brought you out. In addition, the YC did not follow a proper standard of care. It's common knowledge that even the San Frisco YC requires life jackets and harnesses even in the summer. So all of a sudden the YC is also responsible. You as skipper acknowledge that it was totally your fault but to the insurance company that's of little consequence. I could take this scenario down a hundred paths, some could even be made so specific to the YC that the identity of the participants could be identified from the clues and the possibility of the scenario very real. But that would be tedious and would not be necessary in making my point. If the premise were true, it's the skipper responsibility plain and simple, we would not even be having this discussion. But unfortunately in this day and age it's not the case. Boat safety is the skipper, owner, and in the case of YC sponsored races, the YC's. That's one of the reasons that the YC carries insurance. We as a YC need to consider this question of "standard of care" because it can be so nebulous. I resent letting the YC, or anyone for that matter, invade my domain and assume my responsibility and tell me what to do. But the reality is that as skippers we don't always make the right choices and we even have just plain bad luck once in awhile and the sponsoring agency is also going to be held accountable for my choice, right or wrong and even my bad luck. All this may make a person just want to stop racing because of this invasion, that's each person's choice. We all know what free and solitary sprits sailors can be. But I want to race, I like to race, and speaking only for myself I think racing makes me a better sailor. I'm sure there are others like me. (EVERYONE - DO NOT INFER THAT I'M SAYING RACERS ARE BETTER SAILORS - THAT IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE, YOUR SKILL AS A SAILOR IS BASED ON YOUR MENTORS, YOUR EXPIRENCE, AND YOUR INTELLIGENCE.) Brad, thanks for your input into the discussion. Yours is a viewpoint I'm always interested in hearing. I've always considered you to be the best of skippers and you have been around this sailing thing a long time, consequently you offer good perspectives. Thanks - Gene -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 9:24 PM Bear Cup Hello, I would like to ask a few questions about what you would do in the following situation: It is July and the wind is blowing about 15 knots. Your boat speed is around 6 knots and you have your spinnaker up. The waves are about one to two feet high and it is 11:00 O'clock at night and there is no moon. Would you allow your crew not to wear life jackets? Would you allow your crew not to wear a safety harness? Would you let your crew decide for themselves whether or not to wear a life jacket or harness? Would you require that your crew wear a safety harness when they are on Deck only? Would you require that you crew wear a safety harness only when on deck handling sails? Would you require that they wear a safety harness at all times? Would you require that they wear a life jacket and safety harness at all times? It is January 1, 2000 and the wind is blowing about 5 knots, your boat speed is around 2 knots and you have your spinnaker up. There are no waves and the water temp. is 26 degrees the air temp. is 55 degrees. Not a cloud in site. Would you allow your crew not to wear life jackets? Would you allow your crew not to wear a safety harness? Would you let your crew decide for themselves whether or not to wear a life jacket or harness? Would you require that your crew wear a safety harness when they are on Deck only? Would you require that you crew wear a safety harness only when on deck handling sails? Would you require that they wear a safety harness at all times? Would you require that they wear a life jacket and safety harness at all times? Remember that each one of these situations could mean a possible good story around the campfire or a life or death situation. As a skipper you have the oblation to make sure that the correct decisions are made. Because if anything goes wrong on your boat you are responsible. I look forward to your comments. Brad Silver * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Oswald Subject: (utah-sailing) Group purchase? Date: 02 Nov 1999 12:08:55 -0700 I was thinking about the harness / jackline issue and wondered if anyone had considered contacting West Marine and proposing a group purchase (by Utah sailors, or the GSLYC members) in exchange for an incentive discount. I would be happy to ask West if I only knew who to ask there. Who did the GSLYC talk to when they set up their recent West Marine event? Dave * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sailbum200@aol.com Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) GSL Marina Slip Renters Date: 02 Nov 1999 21:46:25 EST If you are still short a few crew I am always availble to go sailing. I have been sailing for about 8 years now mostly on 14 to 18 foot size boats. So E-Mail me back if you need a rail sitter, grinder or what ever. Phil * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wes Peters Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Sailing risks Date: 02 Nov 1999 21:48:45 -0700 Ray Tostado wrote: > > So as I read the sincere questions regarding the "if", the "when", the "should" of > safety at sea, I wonder if the truth of the matter is really sinking in. You don't > stand a chance, if you take a chance. Wear anything that means safe passage. If > the cost of staying alive is a factor, change sports, don't blemish ours. > > I have 5 standard safety harnesses and two IOR harnesses. I will gladly loan them > out to any persons who promise to wear them upon leaving the dock and until > returning. Thanks for the detailed report, Ray. It is chilling to learn what 50 degree water can do to healthy human beings, and downright terrifying to contemplate a fall into 20 degree waters. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Tostado Subject: (utah-sailing) Escort Date: 03 Nov 1999 09:52:26 -0700 I most likely did not read that particular correspondence referring to this: Will there be an escort vessel during the PB race? You have two months (almost) to try and get some volunteer with a 20' + power boat with a nice warm enclosed cabin to sort of ride shot gun over the fleet. It could also tow an inflatable available for any accident events. If the weather was fair maybe Steve Ingram with the Titanic could just plan a special YC "Observers" revelry during the race. It might be offered as a 2000 minus SIX celebration and carry over into a welcome back party on the boat. Do you plan a "First Race of The Millennium" event for the following Saturday? Ray * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TAdams1060@aol.com Subject: (utah-sailing) harness / lifejacket requirements Date: 03 Nov 1999 12:14:15 EST I respect the opinions of all involved in this discussion however the thought of mandating the wearing of life jackets / harnesses in any race is very difficult , perhaps even impossible for me to accept. I am not questioning the wisdom of having this equipement on board but being robbed of the responsibility and freedom of choice that is such an important part of sailing to me. I understand that the YC has to take some precautions to protect itself from liability in case of an accident during one of its functions and I feel that the equipement requirements , race instructions and waiver are sufficient. One only needs to read the newspaper to know that lawyers can distort the facts in any case to remove responsibility from the individual and assign responsibility for a mishap to the deepest pockets around. Remember the "twinkie defense" in the murder of the San Francisco Mayor or the lady awarded millions because SHE spilled coffee on HER lap? In reality there is no precaution that the YC can take in the form of rules , regulations or waivers. Our society is sick because we have allowed our legal system to deprive us of personal responsibility for our actions. "we have become enmeshed in the cancerous discipline of "security". And in the worship of security we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine -- and before we know it our lives are gone" The times I have felt most " alive " and found life most rewarding is when I have had ultimate personal responsibility for the safe and successful completion on a passage or race . Let's keep the current rules, equipement and waiver requirements but PLEASE lets allow the freedom of choice of when to use lifejackets and harnesses. In closing some words of wisdom that oddly enough came from a law review. " a venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own... let them take risks, for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American. " * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wes Peters Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Escort Date: 03 Nov 1999 10:30:10 -0700 Ray Tostado wrote: > > I most likely did not read that particular correspondence referring to > this: > > Will there be an escort vessel during the PB race? You have two months > (almost) to try and get some volunteer with a 20' + power boat with a > nice warm enclosed cabin to sort of ride shot gun over the fleet. It > could also tow an inflatable available for any accident events. > > If the weather was fair maybe Steve Ingram with the Titanic could just > plan a special YC "Observers" revelry during the race. It might be > offered as a 2000 minus SIX celebration and carry over into a welcome > back party on the boat. Somebody should approach Steve about this, and maybe some co-marketing help. Get one of the TV stations to send a camera crew along, and sponsor a raft-up party around his ship after the race. It could be a lot of fun for the racers, the passengers, and Steve. > Do you plan a "First Race of The Millennium" event for the following > Saturday? But the Millenium doesn't start for another year... -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Tostado Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Escort Date: 03 Nov 1999 11:29:29 -0700 --------------3FD57CE7CDF8F34217201105 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!!!! SO FEW OF US, SO MANY OF THEM. Wes Peters wrote: --------------3FD57CE7CDF8F34217201105 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!!!!

                    SO FEW OF US, SO MANY OF THEM.

Wes Peters wrote:
  --------------3FD57CE7CDF8F34217201105-- * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eugene Morgan Subject: RE: (utah-sailing) Escort Date: 03 Nov 1999 10:46:57 -0800 Ray, I had dialog with Ranger Bob on this subject and he has indicated that he would be most happy to provide this services. So as it stands if the weather is at all marginal Ranger Bob will be on station dogging the fleet. However, it's one of those calm January inversions days then in all likelihood, he won't. The line is narrow between the reality of death and the measures taken to insure that it can't happen. The extremes range from cowering in the warmth of my bed afraid and ill prepared for what life will dish out or to face life and nature in all her glory, try to be reasonably prepared and face her knowing that between her moods and my skill rests my fate. Try as I might others will question my sanity. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 9:52 AM I most likely did not read that particular correspondence referring to this: Will there be an escort vessel during the PB race? You have two months (almost) to try and get some volunteer with a 20' + power boat with a nice warm enclosed cabin to sort of ride shot gun over the fleet. It could also tow an inflatable available for any accident events. If the weather was fair maybe Steve Ingram with the Titanic could just plan a special YC "Observers" revelry during the race. It might be offered as a 2000 minus SIX celebration and carry over into a welcome back party on the boat. Do you plan a "First Race of The Millennium" event for the following Saturday? Ray * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eugene Morgan Subject: RE: (utah-sailing) harness / lifejacket requirements Date: 03 Nov 1999 11:08:52 -0800 Tim, You never cease to amaze me. These are the best words I've read expressing a desire to let the choice remain with the skippers. This was the kind of response I was hoping for, but at the time when I asked for discussion I had not the form for the argument nor knew what the words would sound like. You have, in a most elegant fashion, separated the theme of the man who lives within the bounds of society with the theme of the man who has lived on the edge of it. So I'm now forced to ask should we set aside the Yacht Club given that by the rules that bound corporations it will be forced to impose whatever restriction it deems necessary to "protect" itself from legal entanglement. Given some of what I've heard this seems to solve the problem. We the racers will determine the rules of the race. We the skippers will now truly become the responsible party. The only deep pockets will be our own. Thanks, humbly, Gene -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 10:14 AM I respect the opinions of all involved in this discussion however the thought of mandating the wearing of life jackets / harnesses in any race is very difficult , perhaps even impossible for me to accept. I am not questioning the wisdom of having this equipement on board but being robbed of the responsibility and freedom of choice that is such an important part of sailing to me. I understand that the YC has to take some precautions to protect itself from liability in case of an accident during one of its functions and I feel that the equipement requirements , race instructions and waiver are sufficient. One only needs to read the newspaper to know that lawyers can distort the facts in any case to remove responsibility from the individual and assign responsibility for a mishap to the deepest pockets around. Remember the "twinkie defense" in the murder of the San Francisco Mayor or the lady awarded millions because SHE spilled coffee on HER lap? In reality there is no precaution that the YC can take in the form of rules , regulations or waivers. Our society is sick because we have allowed our legal system to deprive us of personal responsibility for our actions. "we have become enmeshed in the cancerous discipline of "security". And in the worship of security we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine -- and before we know it our lives are gone" The times I have felt most " alive " and found life most rewarding is when I have had ultimate personal responsibility for the safe and successful completion on a passage or race . Let's keep the current rules, equipement and waiver requirements but PLEASE lets allow the freedom of choice of when to use lifejackets and harnesses. In closing some words of wisdom that oddly enough came from a law review. " a venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own... let them take risks, for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American. " * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glen Martinsen Subject: RE: (utah-sailing) Escort Date: 03 Nov 1999 12:18:09 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------ =_NextPart_001_01BF2630.2B4F3E44 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Who wrote the bolded portion? It's beautiful. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 11:47 AM Ray, I had dialog with Ranger Bob on this subject and he has indicated that he would be most happy to provide this services.=A0 So as it stands if the weather is at all marginal Ranger Bob will be on station dogging the fleet. However, it's one of those calm January inversions days then in all likelihood, he won't. The line is narrow between the reality of death and the measures taken to insure that it can't happen.=A0 The extremes range from cowering in the warmth of my bed afraid and ill prepared for what life will dish out or to = face life and nature in all her glory, try to be reasonably prepared and = face her knowing that between her moods and my skill rests my fate.=A0 Try as I might others will question my sanity. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 9:52 AM I most likely did not read that particular correspondence referring to this: Will there be an escort vessel during the PB race? You have two months (almost) to try and get some volunteer with a 20' + power boat with a nice warm enclosed cabin to sort of ride shot gun over the fleet. It could also tow an inflatable available for any accident events. If the weather was fair maybe Steve Ingram with the Titanic could just plan a special YC "Observers" revelry during the race. It might be offered as a 2000 minus SIX celebration and carry over into a welcome back party on the boat. Do you plan a "First Race of The Millennium" event for the following Saturday? Ray * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------ =_NextPart_001_01BF2630.2B4F3E44 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

Who wrote the bolded portion? It's beautiful.

-----Original Message-----
From: Eugene Morgan [mailto:emorgan@microsoft.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 11:47 AM
To: 'utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com'
Subject: RE: (utah-sailing) Escort


Ray,

I had dialog with Ranger Bob on this subject and he has indicated that he
would be most happy to provide this services.  So as it stands if the
weather is at all marginal Ranger Bob will be on station dogging the fleet.
However, it's one of those calm January inversions days then in all
likelihood, he won't.

The line is narrow between the reality of death and the measures taken to
insure that it can't happen.  The extremes range from cowering in the warmth
of my bed afraid and ill prepared for what life will dish out or to face
life and nature in all her glory, try to be reasonably prepared and face her
knowing that between her moods and my skill rests my fate.  Try as I might
others will question my sanity.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Tostado [mailto:SAIL.RAY@WORLDNET.ATT.NET]
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 9:52 AM
To: utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com
Subject: (utah-sailing) Escort

I most likely did not read that particular correspondence referring to
this:

Will there be an escort vessel during the PB race? You have two months
(almost) to try and get some volunteer with a 20' + power boat with a
nice warm enclosed cabin to sort of ride shot gun over the fleet. It
could also tow an inflatable available for any accident events.

If the weather was fair maybe Steve Ingram with the Titanic could just
plan a special YC "Observers" revelry during the race. It might be
offered as a 2000 minus SIX celebration and carry over into a welcome
back party on the boat.

Do you plan a "First Race of The Millennium" event for the following
Saturday?

Ray


* To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with
* the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes).

* To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with
* the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes).

------ =_NextPart_001_01BF2630.2B4F3E44-- * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Justin Lee Subject: RE: (utah-sailing) harness / lifejacket requirements Date: 03 Nov 1999 12:11:19 -0700 I'm not an attorney but what I was trying to suggest with my earlier post was this; We had a discussion some time ago about racers signing waivers. We were advised by an attorney at the time the the waiver itself created more of a liability problem than not having one! I don't know if this is true or not but if it is, it stands to reason that creating rules about harnesses etc. may also create more of a liability than allowing individuals the right to decide for themselves? Furthermore...if the weather continues like this, it could be sunny & 70 degrees in January! > -----Original Message----- > From: Eugene Morgan [mailto:emorgan@microsoft.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 12:09 PM > To: 'utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com' > Subject: RE: (utah-sailing) harness / lifejacket requirements > > > Tim, > > You never cease to amaze me. These are the best words I've > read expressing > a desire to let the choice remain with the skippers. This > was the kind of > response I was hoping for, but at the time when I asked for > discussion I had > not the form for the argument nor knew what the words would > sound like. You > have, in a most elegant fashion, separated the theme of the > man who lives > within the bounds of society with the theme of the man who > has lived on the > edge of it. > > So I'm now forced to ask should we set aside the Yacht Club > given that by > the rules that bound corporations it will be forced to impose whatever > restriction it deems necessary to "protect" itself from legal > entanglement. > Given some of what I've heard this seems to solve the problem. We the > racers will determine the rules of the race. We the skippers > will now truly > become the responsible party. The only deep pockets will be > our own. > > Thanks, humbly, > > Gene > > -----Original Message----- > From: TAdams1060@aol.com [mailto:TAdams1060@aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 10:14 AM > To: utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com > Subject: (utah-sailing) harness / lifejacket requirements > > I respect the opinions of all involved in this discussion however the > thought > of mandating the wearing of life jackets / harnesses in any > race is very > difficult , perhaps even impossible for me to accept. I am > not questioning > the wisdom of having this equipement on board but being robbed of the > responsibility and freedom of choice that is such an important part of > sailing to me. > I understand that the YC has to take some precautions to > protect itself > from liability in case of an accident during one of its > functions and I feel > that the equipement requirements , race instructions and waiver are > sufficient. One only needs to read the newspaper to know > that lawyers can > distort the facts in any case to remove responsibility from > the individual > and assign responsibility for a mishap to the deepest pockets around. > Remember the "twinkie defense" in the murder of the San > Francisco Mayor or > the lady awarded millions because SHE spilled coffee on HER lap? In > reality there is no precaution that the YC can take in the > form of rules , > regulations or waivers. Our society is sick because we have > allowed our > legal system to deprive us of personal responsibility for > our actions. > > "we have become enmeshed in the cancerous discipline of > "security". And in > the worship of security we fling our lives beneath the wheels > of routine -- > and before we know it our lives are gone" > > The times I have felt most " alive " and found life > most rewarding is > when I have had ultimate personal responsibility for the safe > and successful > completion on a passage or race . Let's keep the current > rules, equipement > and waiver requirements but PLEASE lets allow the freedom of > choice of when > to use lifejackets and harnesses. > > In closing some words of wisdom that oddly enough came from a > law review. > > " a venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on > their own... > let them take risks, for Godsake, let them get lost, > sunburnt, stranded, > drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - > that is the right > and privilege of any free American. " > > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with > * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). > > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with > * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eugene Morgan Subject: RE: (utah-sailing) Escort Date: 03 Nov 1999 11:33:31 -0800 Not to get onto another subject but I'm intrigued by your statement Wes, "But the Millenium [sic] doesn't start for another year..." I've always thought that in every number system I've ever worked with the first number was always 0. So to my way of thinking the first day of the new Millennium starts January 1, 2000. I've always understood 0 to be the beginning of the next sequence. 0-9 is the first sequence of 10 10-19 the next 20-29 the next and so on and so on.......... Or 0-F is the first sequence 10-1F the next 20-2F the next and so on Have I missed something why would 2001 be considered the first year of the millennium? Would not Dec 31, 2000 be the last day of the fist year of the millennium? In my never ending quest for truth and knowledge help me to understand your perspective on this. * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eugene Morgan Subject: RE: (utah-sailing) Escort Date: 03 Nov 1999 11:38:16 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF2632.FF1E5924 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" These are my own words. If they were given to me from elsewhere then it was unconsciously. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 12:18 PM Who wrote the bolded portion? It's beautiful. -----Original Message----- ] Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 11:47 AM Ray, I had dialog with Ranger Bob on this subject and he has indicated that he would be most happy to provide this services. So as it stands if the weather is at all marginal Ranger Bob will be on station dogging the fleet. However, it's one of those calm January inversions days then in all likelihood, he won't. The line is narrow between the reality of death and the measures taken to insure that it can't happen. The extremes range from cowering in the warmth of my bed afraid and ill prepared for what life will dish out or to face life and nature in all her glory, try to be reasonably prepared and face her knowing that between her moods and my skill rests my fate. Try as I might others will question my sanity. -----Original Message----- ] Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 9:52 AM I most likely did not read that particular correspondence referring to this: Will there be an escort vessel during the PB race? You have two months (almost) to try and get some volunteer with a 20' + power boat with a nice warm enclosed cabin to sort of ride shot gun over the fleet. It could also tow an inflatable available for any accident events. If the weather was fair maybe Steve Ingram with the Titanic could just plan a special YC "Observers" revelry during the race. It might be offered as a 2000 minus SIX celebration and carry over into a welcome back party on the boat. Do you plan a "First Race of The Millennium" event for the following Saturday? Ray * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF2632.FF1E5924 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

T= hese are my own words.  If they = were given to me from elsewhere then it was = unconsciously.

<= ![if = !supportEmptyParas]> 

=

<= ![if = !supportEmptyParas]> 

=

-----Original Message-----
From: Glen Martinsen [mailto:glenm@gscutah.com]
Sent: Wednesday, = November 03, 1999 12:18 PM
To: 'utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com'
Subject: RE: = (utah-sailing) Escort

 

Who wrote the bolded portion? = It's beautiful.

-----Original Message-----
href=3D"mailto:emorgan@microsoft.com">mailto:emorgan@microsoft.com]<= br> Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 11:47 AM


Ray,

I had dialog with Ranger Bob on this subject and he has indicated that = he
would be most happy to provide this services.  So as it stands if = the
weather is at all marginal Ranger Bob will be on station dogging the = fleet.
However, it's one of those calm January inversions days then in all
likelihood, he won't.

The line is narrow between the reality of = death and the measures taken to
insure that it can't happen.  The extremes range from = cowering in the warmth
of my bed afraid and ill prepared for what life will dish out or = to face
life and nature in all her glory, try to be reasonably prepared = and face her
knowing that between her moods and my skill rests my fate.  = Try as I might
others will question my = sanity.

-----Original Message-----
href=3D"mailto:SAIL.RAY@WORLDNET.ATT.NET">mailto:SAIL.RAY@WORLDNET.ATT.N= ET]
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 9:52 AM

I most likely did not read that particular correspondence referring = to
this:

Will there be an escort vessel during the PB race? You have two = months
(almost) to try and get some volunteer with a 20' + power boat with = a
nice warm enclosed cabin to sort of ride shot gun over the fleet. = It
could also tow an inflatable available for any accident events.

If the weather was fair maybe Steve Ingram with the Titanic could = just
plan a special YC "Observers" revelry during the race. It = might be
offered as a 2000 minus SIX celebration and carry over into a = welcome
back party on the boat.

Do you plan a "First Race of The Millennium" event for the = following
Saturday?

Ray


* To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with
* the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no = quotes).

* To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with
* the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no = quotes).=

------_=_NextPart_001_01BF2632.FF1E5924-- * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glen Martinsen Subject: RE: (utah-sailing) Escort Date: 03 Nov 1999 12:59:43 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------ =_NextPart_001_01BF2635.FE032C6A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You really ought to do a book.=A0 Something to read during the calm. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 12:38 PM These are my own words.=A0 If they were given to me from elsewhere then = it was unconsciously. =A0 =A0 -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 12:18 PM =A0 Who wrote the bolded portion? It's beautiful. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 11:47 AM Ray, I had dialog with Ranger Bob on this subject and he has indicated that he would be most happy to provide this services.=A0 So as it stands if the weather is at all marginal Ranger Bob will be on station dogging the fleet. However, it's one of those calm January inversions days then in all likelihood, he won't. The line is narrow between the reality of death and the measures taken to insure that it can't happen.=A0 The extremes range from cowering in the warmth of my bed afraid and ill prepared for what life will dish out or to = face life and nature in all her glory, try to be reasonably prepared and = face her knowing that between her moods and my skill rests my fate.=A0 Try as I might others will question my sanity. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 9:52 AM I most likely did not read that particular correspondence referring to this: Will there be an escort vessel during the PB race? You have two months (almost) to try and get some volunteer with a 20' + power boat with a nice warm enclosed cabin to sort of ride shot gun over the fleet. It could also tow an inflatable available for any accident events. If the weather was fair maybe Steve Ingram with the Titanic could just plan a special YC "Observers" revelry during the race. It might be offered as a 2000 minus SIX celebration and carry over into a welcome back party on the boat. Do you plan a "First Race of The Millennium" event for the following Saturday? Ray * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------ =_NextPart_001_01BF2635.FE032C6A Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You=20 really ought to do a book.  Something to read during the=20 calm.
-----Original Message-----
From: Eugene Morgan=20 [mailto:emorgan@microsoft.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November = 03, 1999=20 12:38 PM
To: = 'utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com'
Subject:=20 RE: (utah-sailing) Escort

These=20 are my own words.  If = they were=20 given to me from elsewhere then it was=20 unconsciously.

 

=

 

=

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: = Glen=20 Martinsen [mailto:glenm@gscutah.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, = 1999 12:18=20 PM
To:=20 'utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com'
Subject: RE: (utah-sailing)=20 Escort

 

Who wrote the = bolded=20 portion? It's beautiful.

-----Original Message-----
From: = Eugene=20 Morgan [mailto:emorgan@microsoft.com]<= BR>Sent:=20 Wednesday, November 03, 1999 11:47 AM
To:=20 'utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com'
Subject: RE: (utah-sailing)=20 Escort


Ray,

I had dialog with Ranger Bob on this = subject and=20 he has indicated that he
would be most happy to provide this=20 services.  So as it stands if the
weather is at all marginal = Ranger=20 Bob will be on station dogging the fleet.
However, it's one of = those calm=20 January inversions days then in all
likelihood, he=20 won't.

The line = is narrow=20 between the reality of death and the measures taken=20 to
insure=20 that it can't happen.  The extremes range from cowering in the=20 warmth
of my bed afraid and ill prepared for what = life will=20 dish out or to face
life and nature in all her = glory, try=20 to be reasonably prepared and face her
knowing = that between=20 her moods and my skill rests my fate.  Try as I=20 might
others will question my=20 sanity.

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Ray Tostado [mailto:SAIL.RAY@WORLDNET.ATT.N= ET]
Sent:=20 Wednesday, November 03, 1999 9:52 AM
To:=20 utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com
Subject: (utah-sailing) = Escort

I=20 most likely did not read that particular correspondence referring=20 to
this:

Will there be an escort vessel during the PB race? = You have=20 two months
(almost) to try and get some volunteer with a 20' + = power boat=20 with a
nice warm enclosed cabin to sort of ride shot gun over the = fleet.=20 It
could also tow an inflatable available for any accident=20 events.

If the weather was fair maybe Steve Ingram with the = Titanic=20 could just
plan a special YC "Observers" revelry during the race. = It might=20 be
offered as a 2000 minus SIX celebration and carry over into a=20 welcome
back party on the boat.

Do you plan a "First Race = of The=20 Millennium" event for the = following
Saturday?

Ray


* To=20 unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with
* the = one line=20 body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes).

* To = unsubscribe send=20 email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with
* the one line body of=20 "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes).

------ =_NextPart_001_01BF2635.FE032C6A-- * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wes Peters Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Millenium (was: Escort) Date: 03 Nov 1999 15:24:14 -0700 Eugene Morgan wrote: > > Have I missed something why would 2001 be considered the first year of the > millennium? Would not Dec 31, 2000 be the last day of the fist year of the > millennium? In my never ending quest for truth and knowledge help me to > understand your perspective on this. Yes. The calender we use was created by Romans, who had no numeral for zero, and did not include it in their numbering system. This was the major flaw in their mathematical world, and also the reason they numbered the first year of the life of Christ "1". So, the year 2000 is the last year of the second millenium, the third millenium will begin on 1 Jan 2001. Of course all of this is silly since the Romans got the birth of Christ wrong when they created their calendar anyhow. I think he was actually born in 4 B.C. on the modern calendar. His birthdate was in April, too, not in December. You can tell that because his parents were returning to Jerusalem to PAY THEIR TAXES, which ALWAYS happens in April. ;^) Calendars, which most people assume to be completely regular, are in reality entirely arbitrary. The calendar we use today is known as the Gregorian calendar, and was based on the Julian calendar created during the Roman Empire. Different countries in Europe switched to the Gregorian calendar at different times. In the USA, we switched along with the rest of the colonies of the British Empire on 2 Sept 1752. This gave rise to an interesting September that year. The UNIX 'cal' program shows us: $ cal 9 1752 September 1752 Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa 1 2 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 They completely skipped my birthday! How dare they! ;^) By the way, this is why nobody in the computer industry calls the Y2K bug "millenium bug", it has nothing to do with the millenium. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wes Peters Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Escort Date: 03 Nov 1999 15:25:24 -0700 > Glen Martinsen wrote: > > Who wrote the bolded portion? It's beautiful. Please note that Gene is a professional (writer). Do not try this at home, somebody might get hurt. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wes Peters Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) harness / lifejacket requirements Date: 03 Nov 1999 15:31:52 -0700 TAdams1060@aol.com wrote: > > I respect the opinions of all involved in this discussion however the thought > of mandating the wearing of life jackets / harnesses in any race is very > difficult , perhaps even impossible for me to accept. I am not questioning > the wisdom of having this equipement on board but being robbed of the > responsibility and freedom of choice that is such an important part of > sailing to me. Your choice is never removed. The YC can require anything they want as part of the race instructions, at while time you have several choices: o Obey the race instructions to the letter. o Race without obeying the instructions at all and hope nobody protests you. o Don't race because you don't like the sailing instructions. o Start your own fleet/yacht club/country. I suspect the response of most falls somewhere between the first two. The YC may issue such requirements in the sailing instructions simply to cover their own liability. If they require you to wear PFDs throughout the race and to harness anyone leaving the cockpit and you kill someone while NOT obeying these rules, the responsibility obviously rests upon YOU the skipper for not obeying the instructions issued by the YC. I dont' like mandatory motorcyle helmet laws either, though I would never consider riding without one myself. I think the state should simply refuse to provide state-supported medical services to anyone riding without a helmet and let them stain the roads of their choice. As it turns out, mandatory helmet laws are the only way they can do that. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: meek@eng.utah.edu (Sanford Meek) Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Millenium (was: Escort) Date: 03 Nov 1999 15:41:23 -0700 At 15:24 11/3/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >Yes. The calender we use was created by Romans, who had no numeral for >zero, and did not include it in their numbering system. This was the major >flaw in their mathematical world, and also the reason they numbered the >first year of the life of Christ "1". So, the year 2000 is the last year >of the second millenium, the third millenium will begin on 1 Jan 2001. Actually it was started by the Babylonians. The Romans did not re-number (their numbering started with the starting of Rome by Romulus and Remus) the years, Dennis the Short ( was a Medieval monk) re-numbered the calendar and tried to correct the errors that had accrued since the Roman times. He gave us all of the rules for lead years that we still use. He appearently missed the year of Christ's birth by 4 years. So the millenium was three years ago. The world didn't end or did it? As this rediculous weather seems to be holding (too bad there isn't more wind, though), I'm headed out sailing this weekend. Sandy Sanford Meek Dept. of Mechanical Engineering University of Utah meek@mech.utah.edu * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "kellycpi" Subject: (utah-sailing) Hate to change the subject! Date: 03 Nov 1999 17:25:16 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF2620.653BF3A0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0006_01BF2620.653BF3A0" ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01BF2620.653BF3A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hate to change the subject, but if you want a look at the Swiss entry = for the America's Cup then look at this boat. They mention it has the = ability to sail sideways? Also a design like this has been done before? = Does anyone know about the true performance of this design? Kelly = http://www.americascup.org/index.fhtml?content=3D/news/lvc/round_1/off_06= /ACP19991030g___Sn22446WFC.html ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01BF2620.653BF3A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hate to change the subject, but if you = want a look=20 at the Swiss entry for the America's Cup then look at this boat. They = mention it=20 has the ability to sail sideways? Also a design like this has been done = before?=20 Does anyone know about the true performance of this design?
 
Kelly

 http://www.americascup.org/index= .fhtml?content=3D/news/lvc/round_1/off_06/ACP19991030g___Sn22446WFC.html<= /A> ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01BF2620.653BF3A0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF2620.653BF3A0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="America's Cup 2000 @ quokka.com.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="America's Cup 2000 @ quokka.com.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=3Dhttp://www.americascup.org/index.fhtml?content=3D/news/lvc/roun= d_1/off_06/ACP19991030g___Sn22446WFC.html [DOC#8#9] BASEURL=3Dhttp://www.americascup.org/ACPe_____banWFC_pb8.fhtml [DOC#8#10#11#12] BASEURL=3Dhttp://www.americascup.org/ACPe_____statusWFC.fhtml [DOC#8#10#11#13] BASEURL=3Dhttp://www.americascup.org/index.fhtml?content=3D/news/lvc/roun= d_1/off_06/ACP19991030g___Sn22446WFC.html [DOC#8#10#14] BASEURL=3Dhttp://www.americascup.org/gallery/lvc/round_1/off_06/103099_FA= STkeel/ACPXkFAST2000KEELWFC.html [InternetShortcut] URL=3Dhttp://www.americascup.org/index.fhtml?content=3D/news/lvc/round_1/= off_06/ACP19991030g___Sn22446WFC.html Modified=3DA0B055045A26BF01E9 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF2620.653BF3A0-- * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Oswald" Subject: (utah-sailing) Administrative request Date: 03 Nov 1999 19:04:50 -0700 I need to ask everyone one small favor: If your email address changes, or if you leave the net altogether, please unsubscribe from the list. Every time an ISP closes an account that hasn't already been unsubscribed from the list, every list message results in a second "bounce" message coming to my mailbox. What does this mean? If two people have closed accounts that haven't been properly unsubscribed, and if there are ten messages sent through the list in a given day, I will have 30 messages waiting for me in my mailbox; ten legitimate ones, and twenty error messages. This happens on almost a daily basis now and has become somewhat of an aggrevation to me. For the record, I have a one-day drop policy. If someone's ISP bounces messages back to me for a 24 hour period, the only way for me to resolve the problem is to drop that person from the list. If you know that your account will be closed or that your email address will change, PLEASE unsubscribe from utah-sailing before you start causing bounced messages. You can always come back later. Please feel free to contact me any time with special needs or subscription/unsubscription requests. The subscription/unsubscription process should be automated, but sometimes it gives people fits. If you need assistance I am happy to help out. Thank-you everyone for your participation in Utah-Sailing. I really enjoy following along and occasionally jumping in. Now back to your regularly scheduled program, now in progress. Dave Oswald * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Tostado Subject: (utah-sailing) Josh? Date: 04 Nov 1999 09:27:23 -0700 Anyone have Josh's number handy? Or a report on his state? He's always good for a bone, or tidbit, and a big smile. Rocky * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Daniel Merriman" Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) harness / lifejacket requirements Date: 04 Nov 1999 11:05:54 -0700 After Tim's great response I feel the need to back his views and perhaps add a new twist. My words will not be quite as elegant but I am sure you will get the point. I have had my boat at the lake just four years now and have been racing for the past year and a half. I do not claim to have a PHD in sailing as others but have put in many hours and miles on the lake in all kinds of conditions. In the 48 months I have been on the lake there has not been a month that I did not sail. I sail single-handed and with crew. Do I wear a harness? Never. I am foolish? Maybe. It reminds of a great French sailor that was just lost at sea this year during an Atlantic crossing. He refused to wear a harness or life jacket at any time. Was he considered a fool? Maybe by some, but even his own son had no regrets at his passing. I have been to Alaska numerous times halibut fishing on the ocean where the water temp is around 32 degrees. Do they require life jackets and harnesses? No. They laugh at life jackets as only used to find bodies. Harnesses might be a good idea. My last trip this past August saw three of us grabbing the deck hand as he was about to be pulled in the water bringing a big fish in. What would have his survival chances have been? Harnesses in my boat seem quite unneeded since I have everything led to the cockpit. When I sail alone I never leave the cockpit and on a Catalina 30 that is a very safe place. Harnesses, tethers, and jacklines for a crew of four would cost a minimum of $500. As for the Yacht Club or Race Committees responsibilities lets look at the America's Cup. In '95 when One Australia went down in less than three minutes would they have been wanting to wear harnesses? Their complaint afterward was that the race was held in wind over 25 knots. Subsequent races were not held in wind speeds greater than 25 because of this. The current Louis Vuitton Cup is only held when the wind is between 5 and 23 knots. Maybe this is more of a limit that the Yacht Club should use. Some sort of maximum wind or sea state. I know in '98 on one Wednesday night race a squall hit right at the start. Longshot was not only knocked down but we were pinned downed by gusts exceeding 40k. A few boats started but none finished. The race committee still scored the race. This year in another Wednesday race Longshot was knocked down no less than five times. Dave Taylor had water going up his rain gear. We had water in the coaming boxes and on the seats a foot deep. Captain Morgan's wife can attest to this as she was on board hanging on for her life. Were life jackets or harnesses required? Jackets were by Dave,the captain, but not harnesses and the race committee had no restrictions. Is there a difference? I find it hard to see. As far as not using the Yacht Club to organize the race I see the same problems no matter who organizes it. If "we" get together and plan it ultimately someone is in charge. Captain Morgan, someone else? Do they now want to be held responsible. I am afraid that in today's world if I called Gene on the radio while sailing and said "let's race to that next buoy" and he subsequently fell overboard and drown I could be found responsible by some lawyer. Just being on this planet makes you open to a lawsuit. I hope I did not stir up another can of worms with the weather restrictions idea but it is something that could be considered. These are only my views and I hope everyone can understand them. Dan Merriman -----Original Message----- >Tim, > >You never cease to amaze me. These are the best words I've read expressing >a desire to let the choice remain with the skippers. This was the kind of >response I was hoping for, but at the time when I asked for discussion I had >not the form for the argument nor knew what the words would sound like. You >have, in a most elegant fashion, separated the theme of the man who lives >within the bounds of society with the theme of the man who has lived on the >edge of it. > >So I'm now forced to ask should we set aside the Yacht Club given that by >the rules that bound corporations it will be forced to impose whatever >restriction it deems necessary to "protect" itself from legal entanglement. >Given some of what I've heard this seems to solve the problem. We the >racers will determine the rules of the race. We the skippers will now truly >become the responsible party. The only deep pockets will be our own. > >Thanks, humbly, > >Gene > >-----Original Message----- >From: TAdams1060@aol.com [mailto:TAdams1060@aol.com] >Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 10:14 AM >To: utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com >Subject: (utah-sailing) harness / lifejacket requirements > >I respect the opinions of all involved in this discussion however the >thought >of mandating the wearing of life jackets / harnesses in any race is very >difficult , perhaps even impossible for me to accept. I am not questioning >the wisdom of having this equipement on board but being robbed of the >responsibility and freedom of choice that is such an important part of >sailing to me. > I understand that the YC has to take some precautions to protect itself >from liability in case of an accident during one of its functions and I feel >that the equipement requirements , race instructions and waiver are >sufficient. One only needs to read the newspaper to know that lawyers can >distort the facts in any case to remove responsibility from the individual >and assign responsibility for a mishap to the deepest pockets around. >Remember the "twinkie defense" in the murder of the San Francisco Mayor or >the lady awarded millions because SHE spilled coffee on HER lap? In >reality there is no precaution that the YC can take in the form of rules , >regulations or waivers. Our society is sick because we have allowed our >legal system to deprive us of personal responsibility for our actions. > > "we have become enmeshed in the cancerous discipline of "security". And in >the worship of security we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine -- >and before we know it our lives are gone" > > The times I have felt most " alive " and found life most rewarding is >when I have had ultimate personal responsibility for the safe and successful >completion on a passage or race . Let's keep the current rules, equipement >and waiver requirements but PLEASE lets allow the freedom of choice of when >to use lifejackets and harnesses. > >In closing some words of wisdom that oddly enough came from a law review. > >" a venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own... >let them take risks, for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, >drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right >and privilege of any free American. " > >* To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with >* the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). > >* To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with >* the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shane Pollard" Subject: RE: (utah-sailing) harness / lifejacket requirements Date: 04 Nov 1999 11:29:39 -0700 There have been some great comments on this topic, but I believe we have strayed from the original intent. Are we trying to save lives or stay out of lawsuits? I've been to several events recently that have required lifejackets. Do you know what I did? I wore mine when I otherwise probably wouldn't have. I'm not lobbying for or against requiring lifejackets or harnesses, but I believe if we decide one way or another it should be because we feel safety concerns have been met. Let's not make our decision because we fear the lawyers. Screw 'em! :) I'm a proponent of the Y flag. If the conditions are glassy and its sunny (probably) don't require anything. If it gets a little hairy put up the Y flag. If it gets really ugly, send everyone home. By the way, the sailing instructions can be modified to state that for a particular event the Y flag would indicate the mandatory usage of a harness as well as a PFD. -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, November 04, 1999 11:06 AM After Tim's great response I feel the need to back his views and perhaps add a new twist. My words will not be quite as elegant but I am sure you will get the point. I have had my boat at the lake just four years now and have been racing for the past year and a half. I do not claim to have a PHD in sailing as others but have put in many hours and miles on the lake in all kinds of conditions. In the 48 months I have been on the lake there has not been a month that I did not sail. I sail single-handed and with crew. Do I wear a harness? Never. I am foolish? Maybe. It reminds of a great French sailor that was just lost at sea this year during an Atlantic crossing. He refused to wear a harness or life jacket at any time. Was he considered a fool? Maybe by some, but even his own son had no regrets at his passing. I have been to Alaska numerous times halibut fishing on the ocean where the water temp is around 32 degrees. Do they require life jackets and harnesses? No. They laugh at life jackets as only used to find bodies. Harnesses might be a good idea. My last trip this past August saw three of us grabbing the deck hand as he was about to be pulled in the water bringing a big fish in. What would have his survival chances have been? Harnesses in my boat seem quite unneeded since I have everything led to the cockpit. When I sail alone I never leave the cockpit and on a Catalina 30 that is a very safe place. Harnesses, tethers, and jacklines for a crew of four would cost a minimum of $500. As for the Yacht Club or Race Committees responsibilities lets look at the America's Cup. In '95 when One Australia went down in less than three minutes would they have been wanting to wear harnesses? Their complaint afterward was that the race was held in wind over 25 knots. Subsequent races were not held in wind speeds greater than 25 because of this. The current Louis Vuitton Cup is only held when the wind is between 5 and 23 knots. Maybe this is more of a limit that the Yacht Club should use. Some sort of maximum wind or sea state. I know in '98 on one Wednesday night race a squall hit right at the start. Longshot was not only knocked down but we were pinned downed by gusts exceeding 40k. A few boats started but none finished. The race committee still scored the race. This year in another Wednesday race Longshot was knocked down no less than five times. Dave Taylor had water going up his rain gear. We had water in the coaming boxes and on the seats a foot deep. Captain Morgan's wife can attest to this as she was on board hanging on for her life. Were life jackets or harnesses required? Jackets were by Dave,the captain, but not harnesses and the race committee had no restrictions. Is there a difference? I find it hard to see. As far as not using the Yacht Club to organize the race I see the same problems no matter who organizes it. If "we" get together and plan it ultimately someone is in charge. Captain Morgan, someone else? Do they now want to be held responsible. I am afraid that in today's world if I called Gene on the radio while sailing and said "let's race to that next buoy" and he subsequently fell overboard and drown I could be found responsible by some lawyer. Just being on this planet makes you open to a lawsuit. I hope I did not stir up another can of worms with the weather restrictions idea but it is something that could be considered. These are only my views and I hope everyone can understand them. Dan Merriman -----Original Message----- >Tim, > >You never cease to amaze me. These are the best words I've read expressing >a desire to let the choice remain with the skippers. This was the kind of >response I was hoping for, but at the time when I asked for discussion I had >not the form for the argument nor knew what the words would sound like. You >have, in a most elegant fashion, separated the theme of the man who lives >within the bounds of society with the theme of the man who has lived on the >edge of it. > >So I'm now forced to ask should we set aside the Yacht Club given that by >the rules that bound corporations it will be forced to impose whatever >restriction it deems necessary to "protect" itself from legal entanglement. >Given some of what I've heard this seems to solve the problem. We the >racers will determine the rules of the race. We the skippers will now truly >become the responsible party. The only deep pockets will be our own. > >Thanks, humbly, > >Gene > >-----Original Message----- >From: TAdams1060@aol.com [mailto:TAdams1060@aol.com] >Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 10:14 AM >To: utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com >Subject: (utah-sailing) harness / lifejacket requirements > >I respect the opinions of all involved in this discussion however the >thought >of mandating the wearing of life jackets / harnesses in any race is very >difficult , perhaps even impossible for me to accept. I am not questioning >the wisdom of having this equipement on board but being robbed of the >responsibility and freedom of choice that is such an important part of >sailing to me. > I understand that the YC has to take some precautions to protect itself >from liability in case of an accident during one of its functions and I feel >that the equipement requirements , race instructions and waiver are >sufficient. One only needs to read the newspaper to know that lawyers can >distort the facts in any case to remove responsibility from the individual >and assign responsibility for a mishap to the deepest pockets around. >Remember the "twinkie defense" in the murder of the San Francisco Mayor or >the lady awarded millions because SHE spilled coffee on HER lap? In >reality there is no precaution that the YC can take in the form of rules , >regulations or waivers. Our society is sick because we have allowed our >legal system to deprive us of personal responsibility for our actions. > > "we have become enmeshed in the cancerous discipline of "security". And in >the worship of security we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine -- >and before we know it our lives are gone" > > The times I have felt most " alive " and found life most rewarding is >when I have had ultimate personal responsibility for the safe and successful >completion on a passage or race . Let's keep the current rules, equipement >and waiver requirements but PLEASE lets allow the freedom of choice of when >to use lifejackets and harnesses. > >In closing some words of wisdom that oddly enough came from a law review. > >" a venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own... >let them take risks, for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, >drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right >and privilege of any free American. " > >* To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with >* the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). > >* To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with >* the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TMartin316@aol.com Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Josh? Date: 04 Nov 1999 18:58:16 EST Josh is in the LDS Hosp. room 342 His operation went well on Sunday and he is as happy as one might expect to be in his condition. He hopes to get out soon!!! It will be a long recovery, but he should be fine after a few months. * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ernst Beier" Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Hate to change the subject! Date: 05 Nov 1999 11:19:11 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01BF277F.95D8B380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you very much . Ernst ----- Original Message -----=20 From: kellycpi=20 To: Utah Sailing List=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 5:25 PM Subject: (utah-sailing) Hate to change the subject! Hate to change the subject, but if you want a look at the Swiss entry = for the America's Cup then look at this boat. They mention it has the = ability to sail sideways? Also a design like this has been done before? = Does anyone know about the true performance of this design? Kelly = http://www.americascup.org/index.fhtml?content=3D/news/lvc/round_1/off_06= /ACP19991030g___Sn22446WFC.html=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01BF277F.95D8B380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you very much . Ernst
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 kellycpi
To: Utah Sailing List
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, = 1999 5:25=20 PM
Subject: (utah-sailing) Hate to = change=20 the subject!

Hate to change the subject, but if = you want a=20 look at the Swiss entry for the America's Cup then look at this boat. = They=20 mention it has the ability to sail sideways? Also a design like this = has been=20 done before? Does anyone know about the true performance of this=20 design?
 
Kelly

 http://www.americascup.org/index= .fhtml?content=3D/news/lvc/round_1/off_06/ACP19991030g___Sn22446WFC.html<= /A>=20
------=_NextPart_000_0040_01BF277F.95D8B380-- * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Tostado Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Hate to change the subject! Date: 05 Nov 1999 12:25:07 -0700 Ernst, The ability to gain weatherly position above the lubber line track of a sailing vessel has always been the racer's dream. Of course there will remain debate as to what benefit it has in all other conditions when the goal is not specifically to "get to a weather mark", "avoid an obstacle", or such. N. Herrshoff made some observations and experiments, mostly forgotten because that age of marine architecture had a gentility to it. This resulted in the adage, " Gentlemen don't beat to weather." My first experience with a boat that did not "slide off it's track" i.e., lose ground on it's target mark, was in San Francisco in 1976 on a brand new Petersen One-tonner owned by the California head of the US OSHA agency. We went sailing across the bay and for the first time in my life I actually experienced a boat holding it's bearing to the mark, if not actually rising above it. My 1937 Alden Yawl at the time had great speed, but you always had to calculate the "set" when beating towards a mark. On this One-tonner the "set was gone". Then in 1978 I launched a Choate 41' two-tonner with a radical Petersen type keel; ( all of which by the way are simple NACA cord sections and shapes derived from computer models and cataloged in a series of phone book thick appendixes. After a while of getting used to not having to pinch, I was able to comfortably "aim" the boat below the heading of the boats around me and actually realize a gain to weather over the competition by letting the keel "lift" our course to weather---sideways---. The matter ws simple: the speed of the water flowing over the cord section was more productive than the angle of attack. " You get more by not trying so hard." I fact, on days when day sailing was the order of the moment we could sail out of the Marina at 3.5 kts at angles of 18 degrees! But only on main only without any current or tide to interfere It was great fun to see the faces on other skippers as we climbed over them and actually had our boat pointing lower than they. By the end of a six month retooling evolution all serious boats had this ability. The downside of this gain was that the boats became sort of wild on downwind tacks in surfing conditions. When a keel is so efficient in it's ability to "turn a boat" it only needed a shift in pressure moments and would ride off into some exotic spinnaker broach. ( Thus the birth of the Blooper) In another two years or so bloopers were a thing of the past, the hull shapes became stable, the sail plans more balanced and going "sideways" was forgotten. Bill Lee developed his own philosophy and cast it upon the public. " Fast is fun" was the Santa Cruz motto. Going to weather became secondary to "just wait till we round the weather mark" Gentility had returned to racing design. The battle goes on and on, probably never will be resolved. All of sailing is a tradeoff Pick you track and sail it hard; upwind, downwind, it's all fun. Cheers, Ray Tostado * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "kellycpi" Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Hate to change the subject! Date: 05 Nov 1999 13:13:23 -0700 Ray.. I can't believe what a wealth of knowledge you have about these types of things. Or is Rocky feeding you this information?How many years have you been sailing? Kelly Ragsdale * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Justin Lee Subject: RE: (utah-sailing) Hate to change the subject! Date: 05 Nov 1999 13:07:38 -0700 ...and what exactly is a "Peterson type Keel"? > -----Original Message----- > From: kellycpi [mailto:kellycpi@email.msn.com] > Sent: Friday, November 05, 1999 1:13 PM > To: utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Hate to change the subject! > > > Ray.. I can't believe what a wealth of knowledge you have > about these types > of things. Or is Rocky feeding you this information?How many > years have you > been sailing? > > > Kelly Ragsdale > > > > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with > * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: meek@eng.utah.edu (Sanford Meek) Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Hate to change the subject! Date: 05 Nov 1999 13:41:16 -0700 At 12:25 11/5/99 -0700, Ray Tostado wrote: >Then in 1978 I launched a Choate 41' two-tonner with a radical Petersen >type keel; ( all of which by the way are simple NACA cord sections and >shapes derived from computer models and cataloged in a series of phone >book thick appendixes. After a while of getting used to not having to >pinch, I was able to comfortably "aim" the boat below the heading of the >boats around me and actually realize a gain to weather over the >competition by letting the keel "lift" our course to >weather---sideways---. The matter ws simple: the speed of the water >flowing over the cord section was more productive than the angle of >attack. " You get more by not trying so hard." I fact, on days when day >sailing was the order of the moment we could sail out of the Marina at >3.5 kts at angles of 18 degrees! But only on main only without any >current or tide to interfere A symmetrical foil cannot produce lift unless there is an angle of attack. There needs to be a difference in the fluid velocities on each side - faster the velocity the lower the pressure, the slower the velocity the higher pressure - Bernoulli's principal. Good keels need less angle of attack than other keels, but there still needs to be one. You can get this effect by slipping sideways (again - good keels less slip for the same lift) or crabbing the boat up wind. The Swiss idea is like that of some fighter planes, turn the keel to produce lift and still keep the boat going straight. Their design looks like it might have some interesting stability problems (not stability in capsizing but stability in going straight) - not unlike four wheel steering vehicles. As they haven't won anything yet, this may be their problem. Sandy Sanford Meek Dept. of Mechanical Engineering University of Utah meek@mech.utah.edu * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Tostado Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Hate to change the subject! Date: 05 Nov 1999 18:24:40 -0700 Whoa, don't so anxious. Relax. I never said I was sailing to weather with no angle of attack, created by sail pressure in a vector side force, creating pressure difference on the keep surface. Unless you are facing a current you will never get a noticeable "Pure angle of attack". The lift is the interaction of the sail and the keel. Rocky * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Tostado Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Hate to change the subject! Date: 05 Nov 1999 19:00:55 -0700 Look it up. It seems my commentary riles some folks. I'm out of it. RT Justin Lee wrote: > > ...and what exactly is a "Peterson type Keel"? > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: kellycpi [mailto:kellycpi@email.msn.com] > > Sent: Friday, November 05, 1999 1:13 PM > > To: utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Hate to change the subject! > > > > > > Ray.. I can't believe what a wealth of knowledge you have > > about these types > > of things. Or is Rocky feeding you this information?How many > > years have you > > been sailing? > > > > > > Kelly Ragsdale > > > > > > > > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with > > * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). > > > > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with > * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TMartin316@aol.com Subject: (utah-sailing) RE: GSLYC Awards Banquet Date: 06 Nov 1999 01:05:13 EST Updated news regarding the upcoming GSLYC Awards Banquet... (if this info does not concern you then please don't bother to read it...) We have just added a new event for this year.. A Silent Auction !!!! It will include many really cool items donated by some great supporters. Due to some of the email problems in the past, I don't feel that it's appropriate to list all the items and/or donors on this mailing list. But please be advised that the items are really cool! And you will want to bid on many of them. A quick sample list includes: Overnight stays at: Lava Hot Springs Inn, Boulder Mountain Lodge and Little America Hotel, a Standard DS 50 Depth Sounder, HD canvas carry bags, CDs, Life Vest, boat cleaning supplies, etc. etc. I plan to put a list of goodies and donors on the GSLYC web site in the near future. If you need more info regarding the Silent Auction or Banquet, please feel free to contact me. Remember, you do not have to purchase dinner to attend the Meeting (8:00 PM), but the dinner and social hour are going to be great! Plan to bid on some items and let's have a fun evening on the 13th!!!! Terry, Cruising Chair GSLYC (Photo Flow) * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eugene Morgan Subject: RE: (utah-sailing) Hate to change the subject! Date: 05 Nov 1999 23:18:25 -0800 Hummmmm, Ray, I thought Justin's question was valid and I didn't get a sense that anyone is "riled". I too found myself wondering what a "Peterson" type keel is. Having not been in the sailing community as long as you I'd love to hear what you have to say. So please don't sulk off. What is a Peterson type keel? -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, November 05, 1999 7:01 PM Look it up. It seems my commentary riles some folks. I'm out of it. RT Justin Lee wrote: > > ...and what exactly is a "Peterson type Keel"? > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: kellycpi [mailto:kellycpi@email.msn.com] > > Sent: Friday, November 05, 1999 1:13 PM > > To: utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Hate to change the subject! > > > > > > Ray.. I can't believe what a wealth of knowledge you have > > about these types > > of things. Or is Rocky feeding you this information?How many > > years have you > > been sailing? > > > > > > Kelly Ragsdale > > > > > > > > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with > > * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). > > > > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with > * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eugene Morgan Subject: RE: (utah-sailing) Millenium (was: Escort) Date: 05 Nov 1999 23:36:26 -0800 Great reply, thanks for taking the time to educate me. Just to be clear, you know how easily e-mail can be misunderstood, I'm not being facetious. I still like my perspective better, not that it's necessarily better or even right, it just appeals to my nature. Never the less, great explanation; I'll file it away so that the next time I hear this position put forth I'll have better understanding. Thanks. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 3:24 PM Eugene Morgan wrote: > > Have I missed something why would 2001 be considered the first year of the > millennium? Would not Dec 31, 2000 be the last day of the fist year of the > millennium? In my never ending quest for truth and knowledge help me to > understand your perspective on this. Yes. The calender we use was created by Romans, who had no numeral for zero, and did not include it in their numbering system. This was the major flaw in their mathematical world, and also the reason they numbered the first year of the life of Christ "1". So, the year 2000 is the last year of the second millenium, the third millenium will begin on 1 Jan 2001. Of course all of this is silly since the Romans got the birth of Christ wrong when they created their calendar anyhow. I think he was actually born in 4 B.C. on the modern calendar. His birthdate was in April, too, not in December. You can tell that because his parents were returning to Jerusalem to PAY THEIR TAXES, which ALWAYS happens in April. ;^) Calendars, which most people assume to be completely regular, are in reality entirely arbitrary. The calendar we use today is known as the Gregorian calendar, and was based on the Julian calendar created during the Roman Empire. Different countries in Europe switched to the Gregorian calendar at different times. In the USA, we switched along with the rest of the colonies of the British Empire on 2 Sept 1752. This gave rise to an interesting September that year. The UNIX 'cal' program shows us: $ cal 9 1752 September 1752 Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa 1 2 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 They completely skipped my birthday! How dare they! ;^) By the way, this is why nobody in the computer industry calls the Y2K bug "millenium bug", it has nothing to do with the millenium. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Tostado Subject: (utah-sailing) Crane day Date: 06 Nov 1999 17:27:35 -0700 Just some reinforcement for those souls who saw their prized possession dangling from a crane today. Close to sex. eh? Cheers, Rocky and his Buddies, "Neat to just walk around, sniff, scratch, and dig those folks." * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Tostado Subject: (utah-sailing) Opps! Date: 06 Nov 1999 17:29:27 -0700 Foregot the news. Sorry, Rocky You Know You Work In The 90's If...... 1. You've sat at the same desk for four years and worked for three different organizations. 2. Your resume is on a diskette in your pocket. 3. You get really excited about a 2% pay raise. 4. You learn about your layoff on the news. 5. Your biggest loss from a system crash is that you lose your best jokes. (should be number one!!) 6. Your supervisor doesn't have the ability to do your job. 7. Salaries of the members on the Executive Board are higher than all the Third World countries' annual budgets combined. 8. It's dark when you drive to and from work. 9. Communication is something your section is having problems with. 10. You see a good-looking person and know it is a visitor. 11. Free food left over from meetings is your main staple. 12. Being sick is defined as can't walk or you're in the hospital. 13. You're already late on the work task you just got. 14. You work 200 hours for the $100 bonus check and jubilantly say "Oh wow, thanks!" 15. Your supervisors' favorite lines are "when you get a few minutes", "in your spare time", "when you're freed up", and "I have an opportunity for you." 16. Vacation is something you roll over to next year or a check you get every January. 17. Your relatives and family describe your job as "works with computers". 18. You read this entire list and understood it. * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Justin Lee Subject: RE: (utah-sailing) Hate to change the subject! Date: 07 Nov 1999 09:35:41 -0700 That's the problem, I have heard this phrase used many times & I can't seem to find any definative answer as to what shape the "Peterson Keel" has? > -----Original Message----- > From: Ray Tostado [mailto:SAIL.RAY@WORLDNET.ATT.NET] > Sent: Friday, November 05, 1999 7:01 PM > To: utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Hate to change the subject! > > > Look it up. It seems my commentary riles some folks. I'm out of it. > > RT > > Justin Lee wrote: > > > > ...and what exactly is a "Peterson type Keel"? > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: kellycpi [mailto:kellycpi@email.msn.com] > > > Sent: Friday, November 05, 1999 1:13 PM > > > To: utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com > > > Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Hate to change the subject! > > > > > > > > > Ray.. I can't believe what a wealth of knowledge you have > > > about these types > > > of things. Or is Rocky feeding you this information?How many > > > years have you > > > been sailing? > > > > > > > > > Kelly Ragsdale > > > > > > > > > > > > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with > > > * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). > > > > > > > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with > > * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). > > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with > * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Paul Doubek Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) harness / lifejacket requirements Date: 07 Nov 1999 09:57:50 -0700 I'm not an attorney either (and I'm just catching up on my e-mail), but I suspect that the fact that this thread took place and officers of the GSLYC were involved may create a liability similar to waivers for the YC. A rule and at least the appearance of an attempt to enforce it may be the only option. Just my opinion... And we can only hope that your second comment doesn't come true! Not only will my skis be lonely, but think what a full season of green slime would do to that lake! Paul Doubek Justin Lee wrote: > > I'm not an attorney but what I was trying to suggest with my earlier post > was this; > We had a discussion some time ago about racers signing waivers. We were > advised by an attorney at the time the the waiver itself created more of a > liability problem than not having one! I don't know if this is true or not > but if it is, it stands to reason that creating rules about harnesses etc. > may also create more of a liability than allowing individuals the right to > decide for themselves? > > Furthermore...if the weather continues like this, it could be sunny & 70 > degrees in January! > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TAdams1060@aol.com Subject: (utah-sailing) peterson type keel Date: 07 Nov 1999 12:18:32 EST Since none of you scientific types have answered the Peterson Keel question I will give it a shot. This design is attributed to Doug Peterson who designed some pretty fast IOR boats back in the 70's and is currently working for the Italian Prada AC group. The best way for me to describe a Peterson type keel is thru examples of boats that have them. Almost every fin keel raceboat designed in the late 70's thru the late 80's has a Peterson Keel. Examples - J-22, 24, 29,30,35,41 Santana 20,525,30-30,35 Capri 25,30 however none of the Catalina line to my knowledge has a true Peterson Type Keel. If I remember my geometry correctly the Peterson keel is a trapezoid - vertical trailing edge with a swept leading edge - bottom and top edges are parallel and the keel to hull joint has no fairing. The cross sectional shape was derived from NACA airfoils. This shape proved superior upwind as it increased lift, (pointing ability) and decreased drag compared to earlier fin keel shapes which were often modeled after fish fins (Catalina's, Columbias and most early IOR designs). I would like to see a more Scientific explanation. I know Ray and Rocky could do more justice to this topic. * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: meek@eng.utah.edu (Sanford Meek) Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Hate to change the subject! Date: 08 Nov 1999 07:59:29 -0700 At 18:24 11/5/99 -0700, Ray Tostado wrote: >Whoa, don't so anxious. Relax. I never said I was sailing to weather >with no angle of attack, created by sail pressure in a vector side >force, creating pressure difference on the keep surface. Unless you are >facing a current you will never get a noticeable "Pure angle of attack". >The lift is the interaction of the sail and the keel. The Swiss boat will be able to do this. Sandy Sanford Meek Dept. of Mechanical Engineering University of Utah meek@mech.utah.edu * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eugene Morgan Subject: RE: (utah-sailing) Opps! Date: 08 Nov 1999 07:35:49 -0800 Geeeeee's, now I'm really depressed! -----Original Message----- Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 5:29 PM Foregot the news. Sorry, Rocky You Know You Work In The 90's If...... 1. You've sat at the same desk for four years and worked for three different organizations. 2. Your resume is on a diskette in your pocket. 3. You get really excited about a 2% pay raise. 4. You learn about your layoff on the news. 5. Your biggest loss from a system crash is that you lose your best jokes. (should be number one!!) 6. Your supervisor doesn't have the ability to do your job. 7. Salaries of the members on the Executive Board are higher than all the Third World countries' annual budgets combined. 8. It's dark when you drive to and from work. 9. Communication is something your section is having problems with. 10. You see a good-looking person and know it is a visitor. 11. Free food left over from meetings is your main staple. 12. Being sick is defined as can't walk or you're in the hospital. 13. You're already late on the work task you just got. 14. You work 200 hours for the $100 bonus check and jubilantly say "Oh wow, thanks!" 15. Your supervisors' favorite lines are "when you get a few minutes", "in your spare time", "when you're freed up", and "I have an opportunity for you." 16. Vacation is something you roll over to next year or a check you get every January. 17. Your relatives and family describe your job as "works with computers". 18. You read this entire list and understood it. * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eugene Morgan Subject: RE: (utah-sailing) peterson type keel Date: 08 Nov 1999 07:46:05 -0800 I asked Ray about this on Saturday as the crane was lifting a variety of boats, including a J35 and other boats with a "Peterson Type" keel. Tim's and Ray's description are in tune with each other. Ray also pointed out how much like the X15 (rocket plane) wing the various Peterson type keels look. As to the specific cross-sectional shapes this is where an understanding of the stacks of technical data would be helpful. -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, November 07, 1999 10:19 AM Since none of you scientific types have answered the Peterson Keel question I will give it a shot. This design is attributed to Doug Peterson who designed some pretty fast IOR boats back in the 70's and is currently working for the Italian Prada AC group. The best way for me to describe a Peterson type keel is thru examples of boats that have them. Almost every fin keel raceboat designed in the late 70's thru the late 80's has a Peterson Keel. Examples - J-22, 24, 29,30,35,41 Santana 20,525,30-30,35 Capri 25,30 however none of the Catalina line to my knowledge has a true Peterson Type Keel. If I remember my geometry correctly the Peterson keel is a trapezoid - vertical trailing edge with a swept leading edge - bottom and top edges are parallel and the keel to hull joint has no fairing. The cross sectional shape was derived from NACA airfoils. This shape proved superior upwind as it increased lift, (pointing ability) and decreased drag compared to earlier fin keel shapes which were often modeled after fish fins (Catalina's, Columbias and most early IOR designs). I would like to see a more Scientific explanation. I know Ray and Rocky could do more justice to this topic. * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Justin Lee Subject: RE: (utah-sailing) peterson type keel Date: 08 Nov 1999 09:23:37 -0700 This is great information, the reason I was asking is to settle an argument I had with someone who tried to tell me my Ericson 32 has a "Peterson Type" keel? It has a swept leading & trailing edge, kind of "V" shaped like this; \ / \ / \ / \ / \___/ and it is definately faired into the hull like the Catalina's, not like a J or Santana. I think Bruce King designed this keel but I don't know for sure? From what I've read here, it is definately NOT a Peterson type keel. Thanks Tim & Gene! > -----Original Message----- > From: Eugene Morgan [mailto:emorgan@microsoft.com] > Sent: Monday, November 08, 1999 8:46 AM > To: 'utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com' > Subject: RE: (utah-sailing) peterson type keel > > > I asked Ray about this on Saturday as the crane was lifting a > variety of > boats, including a J35 and other boats with a "Peterson Type" > keel. Tim's > and Ray's description are in tune with each other. Ray also > pointed out how > much like the X15 (rocket plane) wing the various Peterson > type keels look. > As to the specific cross-sectional shapes this is where an > understanding of > the stacks of technical data would be helpful. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: TAdams1060@aol.com [mailto:TAdams1060@aol.com] > Sent: Sunday, November 07, 1999 10:19 AM > To: utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com > Subject: (utah-sailing) peterson type keel > > Since none of you scientific types have answered the Peterson > Keel question > I > will give it a shot. This design is attributed to Doug Peterson who > designed > some pretty fast IOR boats back in the 70's and is currently > working for the > Italian Prada AC group. The best way for me to describe a > Peterson type > keel > is thru examples of boats that have them. Almost every fin > keel raceboat > designed in the late 70's thru the late 80's has a Peterson > Keel. Examples > - > J-22, 24, 29,30,35,41 Santana 20,525,30-30,35 Capri 25,30 > however none of > the > Catalina line to my knowledge has a true Peterson Type Keel. > If I remember > my geometry correctly the Peterson keel is a trapezoid - > vertical trailing > edge with a swept leading edge - bottom and top edges are > parallel and the > keel to hull joint has no fairing. The cross sectional shape > was derived > from NACA airfoils. This shape proved superior upwind as it > increased lift, > (pointing ability) and decreased drag compared to earlier fin > keel shapes > which were often modeled after fish fins (Catalina's, > Columbias and most > early IOR designs). > > I would like to see a more Scientific explanation. I know > Ray and Rocky > could do more justice to this topic. > > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with > * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). > > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with > * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Taciturn Subject: (utah-sailing) GSL: Shrimping Date: 08 Nov 1999 10:32:07 -0700 Here's the latest on the shrimping situation and what is expected to be done about it. Click here for the Deseret News article: http://deseretnews.com:80/dn/view/1,1249,125014721,00.html? Pat Swigart "Why bring weather you would rather be in out of up for?" http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Shores/9144 * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: meek@eng.utah.edu (Sanford Meek) Subject: (utah-sailing) NOAA page Date: 08 Nov 1999 14:41:51 -0700 Does any one know what happened to the NOAA weather page? It's been off its server for almost a week now. Looking at the clouds out there, maybe Saturday was a good day for crane day after all. It sure was a nice but light sailing day. Sandy Sanford Meek Dept. of Mechanical Engineering University of Utah meek@mech.utah.edu * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bryant Pratt" Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) NOAA page Date: 09 Nov 1999 15:53:29 -0700 Sandy, It looks like the web address has changed for the NOAA weather page. I found it at ... http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/Saltlake (used to be //nimbo...) My favorite page, which shows the current conditions at weather recording stations around the Great Salt Lake, is now at ... http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/Saltlake/current/meso.wfrnt.html . By clicking on a station on the map, you can get the recent history of the conditions (wind speed & direction, temp.) at the site. Bryant Pratt "Narragansett" C-30 -----Original Message----- >Does any one know what happened to the NOAA weather page? It's been >off its server for almost a week now. >Sandy > >Sanford Meek >Dept. of Mechanical Engineering >University of Utah >meek@mech.utah.edu * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wes Peters Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) NOAA page Date: 08 Nov 1999 17:51:20 -0700 Bryant Pratt wrote: > > My favorite page, which shows the current conditions at weather recording > stations around the Great Salt Lake, is now at ... > http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/Saltlake/current/meso.wfrnt.html . By clicking on a > station on the map, you can get the recent history of the conditions (wind > speed & direction, temp.) at the site. In particular, the stations at Badger Island and Hat Island seem to be indicative of the conditions "offshore" near the center of the lake. I don't know if this page requires Java support or not, because I always run with Java enabled. Probably not, because it is fairly fast. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wes Peters Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) peterson type keel Date: 08 Nov 1999 18:09:39 -0700 Justin Lee wrote: > > This is great information, the reason I was asking is to settle an argument > I had with someone who tried to tell me my Ericson 32 has a "Peterson Type" > keel? It has a swept leading & trailing edge, kind of "V" shaped like this; > \ / > \ / > \ / > \ / > \___/ > > and it is definately faired into the hull like the Catalina's, not like a J > or Santana. I think Bruce King designed this keel but I don't know for sure? > From what I've read here, it is definately NOT a Peterson type keel. Yup. A Peterson keel would look more like: Bow Stern \ | \ | \ | \___| (Drawn to J/22 scale. ;^) The keel is typically mounted on a trunk that extends below the nominal bottom of the hull, made of the same material as the hull. This changes the volume of the bilge on the J/22 from about a quart to about 2 gallons. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Tostado Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Hate to change the subject! Date: 08 Nov 1999 19:42:08 -0700 Very true. The possible restriction to overwhelming success might be the hull shape resistance to being "shoved sideways", upwind, against it's own form (also a Peterson drawback). I suspect that the Swiss have thought this out very well. Results will tell. You know, it's tough to imagine anyone beating a bunch of wired KZs on a feeding frenzy. I have several KZ friends. They are loyal, trustworthy, and dedicated to conquest (in a gentlemanly manner). I stood up for one at his wedding, and had another bring me back an auto license plate that said, "PATAGONIA 1 GOV" from where would you guess? I, and another KZ, dropped him (Warren) off at Nogales, Mexico. He then hitch hiked down the Pacific side and returned on the Atlantic side, two years later. To hear him tell about walking down Chile's 2,000 miles of Pacific shoreline of sand dunes on one side and ocean on the other, of standing for days waiting for a vehicle to come by; in either direction, will chill your bones, and gain your respect. They are a formidable people. Cheers, Ray and Rocky * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TMartin316@aol.com Subject: (utah-sailing) RE: Dave Shearer Date: 10 Nov 1999 19:17:35 EST In honor of Dave Shearer's operation today, I went sailing bare foot and solo! It was the least I could do to wish him luck. I'm truly sorry for not having a vodka -tonic to complete the tribute, but a Squatter's Pils seemed to fill in just fine. Good Luck with the recovery Dave!! Hope to see you back on the docks and on the water soon!! Terry Martin (Photo Flow) * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Justin Lee Subject: RE: (utah-sailing) RE: Dave Shearer Date: 10 Nov 1999 17:17:49 -0700 This just in....Mom says operation went well, Dave is in recovery & prognoses is good. I think I will go home & have a V&T now! > -----Original Message----- > From: TMartin316@aol.com [mailto:TMartin316@aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 5:18 PM > To: utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com > Subject: (utah-sailing) RE: Dave Shearer > > > In honor of Dave Shearer's operation today, I went sailing > bare foot and > solo! > It was the least I could do to wish him luck. I'm truly > sorry for not having > a vodka -tonic to complete the tribute, but a Squatter's Pils > seemed to fill > in just fine. > Good Luck with the recovery Dave!! Hope to see you back on > the docks and on > the water soon!! > Terry Martin (Photo Flow) > > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with > * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kurt Simpson" Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) RE: Dave Shearer Date: 10 Nov 1999 17:44:13 -0700 what kind of operation did Dave have? Kurt ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 5:17 PM > This just in....Mom says operation went well, Dave is in recovery & > prognoses is good. > I think I will go home & have a V&T now! > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: TMartin316@aol.com [mailto:TMartin316@aol.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 5:18 PM > > To: utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: (utah-sailing) RE: Dave Shearer > > > > > > In honor of Dave Shearer's operation today, I went sailing > > bare foot and > > solo! > > It was the least I could do to wish him luck. I'm truly > > sorry for not having > > a vodka -tonic to complete the tribute, but a Squatter's Pils > > seemed to fill > > in just fine. > > Good Luck with the recovery Dave!! Hope to see you back on > > the docks and on > > the water soon!! > > Terry Martin (Photo Flow) > > > > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with > > * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). > > > > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with > * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). > > > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Tostado Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) RE: Dave Shearer Date: 10 Nov 1999 17:50:47 -0700 He had his jib halyard replaced. Rocky Kurt Simpson wrote: > > what kind of operation did Dave have? > > Kurt > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Justin Lee > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 5:17 PM > Subject: RE: (utah-sailing) RE: Dave Shearer > > > This just in....Mom says operation went well, Dave is in recovery & > > prognoses is good. > > I think I will go home & have a V&T now! > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: TMartin316@aol.com [mailto:TMartin316@aol.com] > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 5:18 PM > > > To: utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com > > > Subject: (utah-sailing) RE: Dave Shearer > > > > > > > > > In honor of Dave Shearer's operation today, I went sailing > > > bare foot and > > > solo! > > > It was the least I could do to wish him luck. I'm truly > > > sorry for not having > > > a vodka -tonic to complete the tribute, but a Squatter's Pils > > > seemed to fill > > > in just fine. > > > Good Luck with the recovery Dave!! Hope to see you back on > > > the docks and on > > > the water soon!! > > > Terry Martin (Photo Flow) > > > > > > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with > > > * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). > > > > > > > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with > > * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). > > > > > > > > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with > * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wes Peters Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) RE: Dave Shearer Date: 10 Nov 1999 18:01:01 -0700 Kurt Simpson wrote: > > what kind of operation did Dave have? & where is he? We gotta keep our people out of hospitals and on the water! Heal fast, Dave. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bradsilve1@aol.com Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) RE: Dave Shearer Date: 10 Nov 1999 20:33:44 EST What Hospital is Dave in? * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TMartin316@aol.com Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) RE: Dave Shearer Date: 10 Nov 1999 20:43:49 EST Dave is at the U. He had an operation today to fix a lifelong problem w/ his aorta. If you call or visit... don't make him laugh! It may hurt too much... Scott Hunter is not allowed to see or talk to him for a week.. By order of Dr. Ann. Update on Josh Church. He is out of the hospital and doing well. He thanks everyone for their concern and support. Terry * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bradsilve1@aol.com Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) RE: Dave Shearer Date: 10 Nov 1999 20:50:17 EST Well, I have an easy fix for that. Get Dave a "Ally McBeal Face Bra! It holds the old muscles in nice and tight during laughing. I know Tammy uses one when around Scott! Brad * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "kellycpi" Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) RE: Dave Shearer Date: 11 Nov 1999 10:15:24 -0700 Nope not jib halyard. If it is an Aorta then that would be the main sail! Good Luck Dave! Kelly Ragsdale * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ernst Beier" Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Hate to change the subject! Date: 11 Nov 1999 12:24:09 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01BF2C3F.A76C07E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you very much! Ernst ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ernst Beier=20 To: utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Friday, November 05, 1999 11:19 AM Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Hate to change the subject! Thank you very much . Ernst ----- Original Message -----=20 From: kellycpi=20 To: Utah Sailing List=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 5:25 PM Subject: (utah-sailing) Hate to change the subject! Hate to change the subject, but if you want a look at the Swiss = entry for the America's Cup then look at this boat. They mention it has = the ability to sail sideways? Also a design like this has been done = before? Does anyone know about the true performance of this design? Kelly = http://www.americascup.org/index.fhtml?content=3D/news/lvc/round_1/off_06= /ACP19991030g___Sn22446WFC.html=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01BF2C3F.A76C07E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you very much! Ernst
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ernst = Beier
To: utah-sailing@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Friday, November 05, 1999 = 11:19=20 AM
Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) = Hate to=20 change the subject!

Thank you very much . Ernst
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 kellycpi
To: Utah Sailing List
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, = 1999 5:25=20 PM
Subject: (utah-sailing) Hate = to change=20 the subject!

Hate to change the subject, but if = you want a=20 look at the Swiss entry for the America's Cup then look at this = boat. They=20 mention it has the ability to sail sideways? Also a design like this = has=20 been done before? Does anyone know about the true performance of = this=20 design?
 
Kelly

 http://www.americascup.org/index= .fhtml?content=3D/news/lvc/round_1/off_06/ACP19991030g___Sn22446WFC.html<= /A>=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01BF2C3F.A76C07E0-- * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jaculin Swigart Subject: (utah-sailing) GSL: Pollution (& Brown Stains) Date: 11 Nov 1999 16:26:26 -0700 Pollution is everybody's business. Here's an article about a man (some of you may know him) who has gone the distance with our local problems. Perhaps we could learn something from him about our disgusting problem with the brown-stain pollutants we have all been experiencing on our boats. It may be more serious than we all think. Click here for the Salt Lake Tribune article: http://www.sltrib.com:80/1999/nov/11111999/science/45999.htm By the way, Ranger Bob Rosell is compiling a list of complaintants who by signing agree that there is a problem. What action will be taken remains to be seen. The kinds of action that can be taken was the subject of the book in the article above. Ours might be just one of "many fires" that can be started, and not necessarily, therefore, an insignificant one. I hope all who agree that there is a problem that concerns the boat owners will take a moment and stop in at the GSL South Marina office and add their name to the list. Pat "Why bring weather you would rather be in out of up for?" The Great Salt: http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Shores/9144 * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Tostado Subject: (utah-sailing) Man, I don't believe this. Date: 13 Nov 1999 15:28:45 -0700 Anyone else sorry they pulled their boat last week? Well, anyway, the old man and I got the topsides buffed and polished. Today bottom paint coat #1; tomorrow, coat # 2 and then it's ready. Ready for what? Anyone for a crane day this week? Cheers, One bored dog, Rocky. (The old man won't write, he's upset about the weather, he has two season ski passes sitting on the desk) * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Darin Christensen" Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Man, I don't believe this. Date: 13 Nov 1999 15:35:54 -0700 One side sanded for barrier coat today.... hopefully other side tomorrow... coats, who knows, before its cold I hope.... anyone with a great method for getting the paint under the pads without doing one a day for a week? ========================================================== Darin Christensen Owner: Victory 21 # 195 "Kristoffer's Son" and Santana 525 #61 (67134) "Abraxas" See the Victory 21 Homepage HTTP://users.sisna.com/darinc ========================================================== * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Tostado Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Man, I don't believe this. Date: 14 Nov 1999 16:27:31 -0700 Take this as friendly advice and not absolute law. 1. What kind of trailer do you have in regards to support posts. If you have 4 per side then it is reasonably easy to do four pads at at time. 2. Make certain your boat is balanced on the keel and vertical. Loosen and remove the front two right and left, skip the next pair , and loosen and lower the #3 pair, right and left. 3. Prep and paint the four pad areas. Let dry then place some wax paper under the pads before tightening them back up. Secure the weight and balance to the painted support pads. Loosen the remaining unpainted pads and repeat. 4. Let last areas dry and place wax paper under pads before firming up. If you have only two supports columns per side you might contact someone who has some universal free standing screw pads. I saw a set of them being used at the marina recently. They are set on the ground and are used for support as you lower the trailer support. Be certain that if you use floor supports the trailer suspension is blocked off so it cannot roll, move or bounce. Most certianly avaid climbing aboard while doing this. After about a four or five day dry period you can remove the wax paper. It is a good time to sand the area under the pads. This you can do one pad at a time. The wax paper is to prevent the soft paint from getting a "texture" from the pad material. It takes a few days for the paint to get "hard". It is not a good idea to leave the wax paper in place if you are going to do some highway travel. Most important of all. Don't get to moving jacks and stuff around without another person there to help and assist where needed. Cheers, Rocky's repair service. ***It is wise to block the trailer suspension anyway. Standing on the frame can shift the balance from one side to the other easily. * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bradsilve1@aol.com Subject: (utah-sailing) Bottom Paint Date: 14 Nov 1999 18:56:14 EST So Ray, Did you do all the work yourself or did you have some help? Since Tuesday, I have been working on my boat about four hours a day. But I am not even close to bottom painting. What is your secret? Brad * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Tostado Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Bottom Paint Date: 15 Nov 1999 05:47:58 -0700 Humongous air compressor and a half dozen high tech air sanders and stuff. Being comfortable is important also. Hurry Hurry, it's getting colder every day....burrr.... Ray Bradsilve1@aol.com wrote: > > So Ray, > > Did you do all the work yourself or did you have some help? Since Tuesday, I > have been working on my boat about four hours a day. But I am not even close > to bottom painting. > > What is your secret? > > Brad > > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with > * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Diana Goodell Subject: (utah-sailing) FREE magazines Date: 18 Nov 1999 07:52:06 -0700 I have old SAIL and CRUISING magazines that are in perfect condition; some = are still in their wrappers. I hope someone would like to have these = magazines - and the price is right - FREE. Become arm-chair sailors this = winter! * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Bendio Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) FREE magazines Date: 18 Nov 1999 07:16:58 -0800 (PST) I would very much enjoy and appreciate them. Write me at MichaelBendio@yahoo.com to let me know how to pick them up. Thanks! --- Diana Goodell wrote: > I have old SAIL and CRUISING magazines that are in > perfect condition; some are still in their wrappers. > I hope someone would like to have these magazines - > and the price is right - FREE. Become arm-chair > sailors this winter! > > > > * To unsubscribe send email to > majordomo@lists.xmission.com with > * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" > (no quotes). > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Taciturn Subject: (utah-sailing) GSL News: 11/18/99 Date: 18 Nov 1999 22:19:24 -0700 1) Salt Lake Tribune article regarding opening the causeway, salinity and brine shrimp on GSL: http://www.sltrib.com:80/1999/nov/11181999/utah/49303.htm 2) Deseret News article regarding pumping lake at 4208': http://deseretnews.com:80/dn/view/1,1249,130008853,00.html? 3) Deseret News article regarding Quality Growth Act, saving open space near Syracuse along GSL: http://deseretnews.com:80/dn/view/1,1249,130008794,00.html? Pat Swigart "Why bring weather you would rather be in out of up for?" http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Shores/9144 * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alyxandra K. MacLeod" Subject: (utah-sailing) Odd Day Date: 19 Nov 1999 14:19:33 -0700 Off the subject but interesting... Today is an odd day, meaning that all of the digits are odd, 11-19-1999. The next odd day after that will be 1-1-3111 (well over a thousand years away), which we will never see. Days such as 4-13-89 have both even and odd digits, thus, it is neither odd nor even. The next even day will be 2-2-2000 (the first one since 8-28-0888). Now you have a reason to celebrate today as it will be your last odd day on earth!!! Have a nice Odd day! -- LucyBlue@Softhome.net ICQ #10306498 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Elsinore Lucilla Aurelius Smooth Blue Collie http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Cabana/4637 Moon Shyne Catalina 22 - #5315 - GSL Utah http://www.angelfire.com/pq/LucyBlue * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Taciturn Subject: (utah-sailing) GSL News: New Jersey Date: 21 Nov 1999 09:09:35 -0700 This article on the Great Salt Lake, Antelope Island, and its wildlife is from the Bergen Record in New Jersey: http://www.bergen.com:80/travel/saltlake1199911214.htm Pat "Why bring weather you would rather be in out of up for?" http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Shores/9144 * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Taciturn Subject: (utah-sailing) GSL News: Coming Features Date: 21 Nov 1999 17:14:11 -0700 Scan ahead to the second part of this Salt Lake Tribune article, where it begins, "Guess who is coming to Thanksgiving dinner?" The Tribune announces a series of special takes on the Great Salt Lake this Thursday through Sunday: http://www.sltrib.com:80/1999/nov/11211999/utah/50584.htm Pat "Why bring weather you would rather be in out of up for?" * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Taciturn Subject: (utah-sailing) THE GREAT SALT: Updated At Last & More to Come Date: 21 Nov 1999 17:35:39 -0700 Here's an update to THE GREAT SALT! Click here or better yet bookmark this for future use: http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Shores/9144 Its still far from complete and I am already planning updates of this update but some of the new features are the "Scrapbook" (photolinks of anything having to do with the GSL), "SuperLinks!"-- the most extensive set of links about the GSL anywhere, a Great Salt Lake Yacht Club overview, something on Friends of Great Salt Lake, a Map Page, and many new Quotations. I will be back shortly to add several other features that I'm holding off-line but that are not nearly ready to go. If you have enjoyed this site from time to time or have any suggestions for future features, let me know. An encouraging word is welcome. See you out on The Great Salt! Pat Swigart "Why bring weather you would rather be in out of up for?" * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JMarxCat@aol.com Subject: (utah-sailing) Twins Date: 24 Nov 1999 23:56:50 EST I wanted to let anyone who cares know that Teresa is expecting TWINS. We are having a girl and a boy, and hope they are here at the end of March or first of April. Teresa is doing well, I on the other hand need a drink! Thanks from the instant family..... * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RAY TOSTADO Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Twins Date: 25 Nov 1999 08:09:35 +0000 CONGRATULATIONS, time to start looking for a boat for them. May I suggest a catamaran, an identical hull (mirrored) for each. Cheers, good health to them both, and the Mom. Rocky and Ray JMarxCat@aol.com wrote: > I wanted to let anyone who cares know that Teresa is expecting TWINS. We are > having a girl and a boy, and hope they are here at the end of March or first > of April. Teresa is doing well, I on the other hand need a drink! > Thanks from the instant family..... > > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with > * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Taciturn Subject: (utah-sailing) GSL News: Special! Date: 25 Nov 1999 09:20:52 -0700 Here's the first of the SL Tribune special features "who's coming was foretold" here on a previous installment of "GSL News". It's entitled "Great Salt Lake: A Crossroads": Here's the kickoff article: "Is Causeway Killing the Lake?": (click below) http://www.sltrib.com:80/1999/nov/11251999/utah/389.htm The eared grebe as an early warning system: "Eccentric Eared Grebe May Help Unlock Mysteries of the Ecosystem": (click here) http://www.sltrib.com:80/1999/nov/11251999/utah/390.htm Here's are some special online feature for computer users from SL Tribune including stories, a photo gallery, and a map: http://www.sltrib.com/specials/gsl/stories/index.htm http://www.sltrib.com/specials/gsl/gallery/index.htm http://www.sltrib.com/specials/gsl/maps/index.htm Enter your password or get one and then go online to send your message (Let's let the SL Tribune hear from the concerned and well-informed members of our sailing community!): http://tribtalk.sltrib.com:8080/%7Egsl Here's a screen saver of beautiful GSL images for your computer that can be uploaded from SL Tribune: http://www.sltrib.com/specials/gsl/extras/screensaver.htm Here's some images that you can right-click on and use as backgrounds for your desktop on your computer: http://www.sltrib.com/specials/gsl/extras/backgrounds.htm And a small assortment of links: http://www.sltrib.com/specials/gsl/extras/links.htm Save the Great Salt Lake, and have a Happy Thanksgiving! Pat and Jackie Swigart and kids, "Why bring weather you would rather be in out of up for?" THE GREAT SALT: http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Shores/9144 * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Taciturn Subject: (utah-sailing) GSL News: Addendum Date: 25 Nov 1999 10:42:41 -0700 Although newspapers break with many stories all at once, the stories' on-line equivalents are not posted simultaneously by their reporters or editors. This one was not included in the previous "GSL News." It deals with the battle issues over the Legacy Highway and cautions, "Beware the unanticipated!" when dealing with our wetlands: http://www.sltrib.com:80/1999/nov/11251999/utah/388.htm By the way, that Great Salt Lake screen-saver may require your computer to have a Macromedia Flash plug-in so that your computer may view flash-effects on your screen. It takes about 20 minutes for the screen-saver to upload, but it is well worth the wait, and many websites are using flash nowadays so the plug-in is something you may wish to have. If you don't have it, just click on the Macromedia Flash plug-in link at the bottom of the page to upload the latest free shareware: http://www.sltrib.com/specials/gsl/extras/screensaver.htm Pat "Why bring weather you would rather be in out of up for?" THE GREAT SALT: http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Shores/9144 * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Oswald" Subject: (utah-sailing) Thanksgiving Weekend cruise: last call Date: 25 Nov 1999 11:03:25 -0700 This is the last call for those interested in participating in the Thanksgiving Weekend cruise from the GSL South Shore marina to the Antelope Island marina, and back again. We will be leaving Saturday morning *if* the forecast shows highs to be mid fourties or better, and lows above 25, and no precipitation is predicted. The itinerary will be to leave around 9:00AM on Saturday, or 10:00 at the latest. We will head to the North marina. There, we will do some hiking and spend the night. Sunday we will sail back home. So far it looks like Swan Song will sail alone with a crew of three. We would love to have other enthusiasts bring their boats out for the weekend too. If anyone else is interested in participating please let me know by Friday. Thanks, and happy thanksgiving, Dave -- David Oswald | doswald@xmission.com A person who has had a bull by the tail once has learned 60 or 70 times as much as one who hasn't. -- Mark Twain * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Oswald" Subject: (utah-sailing) Thanksgiving Weekend Cruise (addendum) Date: 25 Nov 1999 11:07:36 -0700 I should have mentioned in my previous email, this is the SECOND ANNUAL Thanksgiving Weekend cruise. -- David Oswald | doswald@xmission.com A person who has had a bull by the tail once has learned 60 or 70 times as much as one who hasn't. -- Mark Twain * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "kellycpi" Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Thanksgiving Weekend cruise: last call Date: 25 Nov 1999 11:03:35 -0700 Will be out in Trioomph but 10:00 sounds a little early. You start and I'll catch up. Kelly * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Taciturn Subject: (utah-sailing) GSL News: Special Date: 26 Nov 1999 08:30:01 -0700 Well, by now I suspect many of you are enjoying the Screen-Saver from the SL Tribune (a flash slide show of beautiful scenes on Great Salt Lake. In today's Trib the Special Features continue with these looks at the "Web of Life": The changing Brine Shrimp ecology and its effects: http://www.sltrib.com:80/1999/nov/11261999/utah/655.htm You know your brine shrimp (Artemia) your algae (Dunaliella viridis) and the problems with raised salinity (North Arm), but do you know about the diatoms, and the corixids (waterboatmen) that compete with the shrimp at lowered salinity? Here's a fine article depicting the problem: http://www.sltrib.com:80/1999/nov/11261999/utah/652.htm Be sure to click on the graphic "Great Salt Lake: A Crossroads" to see the special online features available only to computer users -- they are special. I tried to twice yesterday to get a password to enter into their online comments and though it said that passwords had been sent, neither was received. Has anyone been able to access this? I hope they will hear from our keenly interested sailing community. Save the Great Salt! Pat "Why bring weather you would rather be in out of up for?" THE GREAT SALT: http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Shores/9144 * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Taciturn Subject: (utah-sailing) K-Dock Alert! Date: 26 Nov 1999 13:48:38 -0700 Jackie has just called me from the south marina at GSL St. Park. She says that there was some problem with wiring, some smoking (reported) and that the electricity/power is off to K-Dock. This is all we know (so direct all inquiries to Ranger Bob Rosell), but if you are a slip-holder/boat-owner at K-Dock and you are depending on power for some reason (iron-lungs, etc.), then it may be worthwhile to stop by to check-up on things. Hope all is well. Pat Swigart "Why bring weather you would rather be in out of up for?" THE GREAT SALT: http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Shores/9144 * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Taciturn Subject: (utah-sailing) GSL News: Special 3 Date: 27 Nov 1999 08:45:47 -0700 Tourism and industry are topics for today's third installment of the SL Tribune's Special entitled "Great Salt Lake: A Crossroads." "The Lake is a Magnet for Tourists, Wages" discusses the increasing popularity of Antelope Island and other tourist attractions. Steve Ingram and his "Salt Island Adventures" cruises are featured in this first article: http://www.sltrib.com:80/1999/nov/11271999/utah/826.htm This next article called "Future of the Lake Economy Triggers Hot Debates" is about industry, impacts, and imbalances in the ecosystem imposed by the differing conditions on the North and South Arms of the lake: http://www.sltrib.com:80/1999/nov/11271999/utah/823.htm If you haven't visited the Special "Online Companion," here's the link to a GSL Screen-Saver with free plug-in shareware, a photo gallery of GSL, maps, all previous stories in this special, and a discussion/comment online (Darin Christensen confirmed my suspicion that it is not yet working -- perhaps their server is shut down for the holiday?): http://www.sltrib.com/specials/gsl Save the Great Salt! Pat Swigart "Why bring weather you would rather be in out of up for?" THE GREAT SALT: http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Shores/9144 * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Taciturn Subject: (utah-sailing) GSL News: Special 4 Date: 28 Nov 1999 09:38:59 -0700 In today's SL Tribune the 4 day special feature entitled "Great Salt Lake: A Crossroads" concludes by taking a look at the future of the lake and some of the issues. "What Do We Want to Do With the Lake?" http://www.sltrib.com:80/1999/nov/11281999/utah/1091.htm "City Pollutants Threaten Great Salt Lake" http://www.sltrib.com:80/1999/nov/11281999/utah/1092.htm "Causeway Fixes Could Aid Lake" http://www.sltrib.com:80/1999/nov/11281999/utah/1090.htm "A Not-So-Final Word on This Series" http://www.sltrib.com:80/1999/nov/11281999/utah/1095.htm "Department of Natural Resources Charts Future of Great Salt Lake" http://www.sltrib.com:80/1999/nov/11281999/commenta/940.htm Save the Great Salt! Pat Swigart "Why bring weather you would rather be in out of up for?" THE GREAT SALT: http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Shores/9144 * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Taciturn Subject: (utah-sailing) GSL News: Missed the Special? Date: 28 Nov 1999 09:49:12 -0700 Did you miss the Special Features presented by the SL Tribune? Were you out of town for the holiday? You just don't get the paper? You were in a turkey-stupor, perhaps? You say you get the paper but didn't know about all the other GSL features that the Trib had on the web for its online readers? (Screen-saver and free shareware plug-in, maps, about 15 stories, photo galleries, and online discussion/comments) Don't dispair. Here is how to get it all: "Great Salt Lake: A Crossroads" http://www.sltrib.com/specials/gsl/ Save the Great Salt! Pat Swigart "Why bring weather you would rather be in out of up for?" THE GREAT SALT: http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Shores/9144 * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Taciturn Subject: (utah-sailing) Discussion/Conferencing] Date: 28 Nov 1999 19:27:51 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5295398BDBD5E7C63263EFAB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Many of us seem to have been having trouble accessing the SL Tribune discussion called Trib/Talk over the last few days. I wrote to them and they responded this afternoon. If any of you would like to try again, simply log in again (no password will be required, now). You may begin a new thread or topic under the categories provided or respond to comments there now. Here is Kim McDaniel's response and invitation to return. Pat Swigart "Why bring weather you would rather be in out of up for?" THE GREAT SALT: Sailing and the Great Salt Lake http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Shores/9144 --------------5295398BDBD5E7C63263EFAB Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mars.aros.net (mail.aros.net [207.173.16.20]) by eagle.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA17067 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 12:37:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from sltrib.com (dsl-184.dsl.aros.net [208.219.24.184]) by mars.aros.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA00479 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 13:37:48 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3841A00C.523B2E5@sltrib.com> Reply-To: kimm@sltrib.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3841752D.F9A30DAE@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We are aware there is a problem with the system mailing out passwords. We have temporarily suspended this feature for that board so you can register and set your own password. It provides a bit less security but will at least allow you to participate for now. We hope to have things fixed early this week once everyone is back in the office. Kim McDaniel TribTalk Administrator Taciturn wrote: > > I'm sorry, but your TribTalk conferencing and access was not working > these past four days. Many of us of the GSL sailing community -- who > know the Great Salt Lake like no others -- would like to have > participated, but no one was able to gain passwords or access. > > Pat Swigart > "Why bring weather you would rather be in out of up for?" > THE GREAT SALT: SAILING AND THE GREAT SALT LAKE > http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Shores/9144 --------------5295398BDBD5E7C63263EFAB-- * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "kellycpi" Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Discussion/Conferencing] Date: 28 Nov 1999 22:46:55 -0700 Does anyone know why and how the spiral jetty was made? Kelly * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Taciturn Subject: (utah-sailing) Re: "Spiral Jetty" Date: 28 Nov 1999 23:20:05 -0700 Hi Kelly, It's funny you should ask about this subject. There was a pretty revealing story just today in the Sunday Magazine section of the SL Tribune called, "First a joke, then a jewel for the guys who built the "Spiral Jetty." Unfortunately not everything in the paper gets posted in an online version at the SL Tribune website, so I can't shoot you a link about it. Maybe they will post it later. See Nov. 28, 1999 Section J, page 1, 3. Maybe you get it. Here's something, however: http://www.artincontext.com/listings/pages/artist/1/3gsai421/image.htm http://www.mines.utah.edu/~wmgg/Geology/UtahGIFS/SpiralJetty.html Hope that is some help. Pat "Why bring weather you would rather be in out of up for?" THE GREAT SALT: kellycpi wrote: > > Does anyone know why and how the spiral jetty was made? > Kelly > > * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with > * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: meek@eng.utah.edu (Sanford Meek) Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Discussion/Conferencing] Date: 29 Nov 1999 08:26:47 -0700 At 22:46 11/28/99 -0700, kellycpi wrote: >Does anyone know why and how the spiral jetty was made? It was an art project by Smithson. It was made in the early 70's using dozers and loaders (earth moving equipment). The newspaper has the wrong location for it on their map!! Sandy Sanford Meek Dept. of Mechanical Engineering University of Utah meek@mech.utah.edu * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Oswald Subject: (utah-sailing) Re: spiral jetty Date: 29 Nov 1999 08:36:20 -0700 What is the correct location? I've always wondered where it is, and have wanted to take a drive to see it. I assume it's in the North half. If it were in the south arm us sailors would make it a regular destination. Dave * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wes Peters Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Re: spiral jetty Date: 29 Nov 1999 13:01:15 -0700 David Oswald wrote: > > What is the correct location? I've always wondered where it is, and > have wanted to take a drive to see it. I assume it's in the North half. > If it were in the south arm us sailors would make it a regular > destination. West of Promontory. There is a south-facing bay up the west side of Promontory and the spiral jetty is just west of that bay, according to the map in the Thanksgiving Day Trib, page K-1. I'm planning to scan the map tonight. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: meek@eng.utah.edu (Sanford Meek) Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Re: spiral jetty Date: 29 Nov 1999 14:14:51 -0700 At 13:01 11/29/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >David Oswald wrote: >> >> What is the correct location? I've always wondered where it is, and >> have wanted to take a drive to see it. I assume it's in the North half. >> If it were in the south arm us sailors would make it a regular >> destination. > >West of Promontory. There is a south-facing bay up the west side of >Promontory and the spiral jetty is just west of that bay, according to >the map in the Thanksgiving Day Trib, page K-1. I'm planning to scan >the map tonight. > It's at Rozel Point not Promontory. The map (web version - I didn't see the paper version) marked the location of Little Valley Harbor which is just south of Indian Bay on the west side of Promontory where Diana, Paul, Brian, and I went cruising this last October. If you look at the big USGS map of the Great Salt Lake and follow the road that goes through the Golden Spike NHS, the road goes west and then south to Rozel Point. The Spiral Jetty is just out in the lake at the end of the road. We were thinking of sailing to it if there was enough wind. There wasn't and we paddled a lot. Sandy Sanford Meek Dept. of Mechanical Engineering University of Utah meek@mech.utah.edu * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "josh church" Subject: (utah-sailing) thanksgiving day cruise onboard swansong Date: 29 Nov 1999 22:18:12 GMT dave oswald and crew, I never did find out the results of your turkey day cruise. Did you go? Did the weather cooperate?? I'm afraid that I was still under the influence of certain factors at that time.Ihope you at least found a heater(in any way,shape or form)to use.hope things went well... back from the edge josh (Island Girl) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "linda kelley" Subject: (utah-sailing) Thanksgiving-Sunday after Date: 29 Nov 1999 17:57:46 -0700 When Larry and I went to Antelope Island (now our home base) Sunday afternoon to put Sea Otter to bed for the winter, we noticed fairly new dock lines wrapped around two front cleats on "A" dock. We wondered if the south marina Thanksgiving sailors may have left them behind? If so, we'd be happy to pick them up and leave them on the owner's boat when we drive to Salt Lake December 2. Anyone who was out of doors that day knows that, instead of putting away the boat, we hoisted sail and enjoyed a wonderful bit of sailing. We're hoping the Thanksgiving sailors had a wonderful trip home. Linda and Larry Kelley * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Oswald Subject: (utah-sailing) Spiral Jetty Location (and others) Date: 30 Nov 1999 10:22:24 -0700 Eugene Morgan has been kind enough to offer a list of coordinates for many of the Great Salt Lake's landmarks, destinations, hazzards, etc. The list is in Microsoft Excel format. Because of its size it couldn't be directly emailed to the entire email-list. But if you're interested in downloading this helpful document point your web browser to the following address: http://www.xmission.com/~doswald/sailing/gslgps.xls Save it to your hard drive, and then use Microsoft Excel to view it. The spreadsheet contains coordinates to all sorts of things all over the GSL, including the Spiral Jetty. It's pretty impressive. Thanks Gene for your effort and the great job you've done in compiling this spreadsheet. To everyone else; it looks like Mr Morgan intends for this spreadsheet to be an ongoing and growing document, so if you have confirmed gps coordinates of locations on the lake that should be included in updates to the spreadsheet be sure to email them to emorgan@microsoft.com Dave Oswald * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "kellycpi" Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Spiral Jetty Location (and others) Date: 30 Nov 1999 16:25:51 -0700 Gene... Great Job! I have wanted something like this for a long time, especially being new to the Lake. I am having trouble saving this to my hard drive. Any suggestions? Kelly Ragsdale P.S. You guys shouldn't have told Sandy Meeks it is a Microsoft format, he won't use it! Private Joke! (just kidding Sandy!) * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: meek@eng.utah.edu (Sanford Meek) Subject: Re: (utah-sailing) Spiral Jetty Location (and others) Date: 30 Nov 1999 16:43:37 -0700 At 16:25 11/30/99 -0700, kellycpi wrote: >Gene... Great Job! I have wanted something like this for a long time, >especially being new to the Lake. >I am having trouble saving this to my hard drive. Any suggestions? > >Kelly Ragsdale > >P.S. You guys shouldn't have told Sandy Meeks it is a Microsoft format, he >won't use it! >Private Joke! (just kidding Sandy!) > Hah! I can read it. I usually can decode anything, it's just that Microsoft e-mailers use MIME encoding and a lot of excess baggage comes along with each message. I wouldn't tell you about my cussing at the new Word and the way the graphics insertion and moving seems totally random. I imagine that they're getting enough complaints about that. We're moving most of our PCs to linex...... OK, I'm frustrated -- the boats' are packed up and there's no snow for skiing!!! BTW, the spiral jetty's not listed. I'll have to see if I've got the coordinates at home. I don't think so, though. Sandy Sanford Meek Dept. of Mechanical Engineering University of Utah meek@mech.utah.edu * To unsubscribe send email to majordomo@lists.xmission.com with * the one line body of "unsubscribe utah-sailing" (no quotes).