From: Deidra Walpole / Bruce Wright Subject: Re: [OUTDOORS] Any Suggestions? Date: 30 Jun 1998 21:27:09 -0700 ElBongo wrote: > > My 2 friends and I are interested in a week long trip to Utah, early > September. What we're interested in doing is catching fish, canoeing > (class II or slower), camping on the river, and a little hiking. > Awesome scenery is a must. Anyone have any suggestions? Look into the Green River. I don't know about the fishing but it is a great canoe from Green River to the Colorado. tHERE are a bunch of outfitters that will pick you up at the Colorado and the scenery is beyond compare. Another idea is the San Juan from Bluff towards Lake Foul. It has a few rapids but I don't think any are too difficult. Good luck. Bruce Wright > > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Porcaro" Subject: RE: [OUTDOORS] GPS Date: 01 Jul 1998 09:28:26 -0600 I would agree with the previous statements. In my opinion they are a valuable tool. You should however be very cautious in relying on them, There are many factors that can cause you grief. The biggest being the 2d mode when the unit doesn't have a fix on the altitude. This is especially dangerous when doing land navigation and can cause you to be as far as a mile off. I think that used with a compass and altimeter for land travel they are a very valuable tool. I am going out to Mount Hood on the 16-19 of July to have a two day training from a GPS vendor and then a two day ascent using the information that we receive to make the ascent with the GPS. I will be Reporting this information on the GearReview company's site at http://www.gearreview.com. We will soon (within 3 months)have a full comparison of the different GPS models available on the site. Jeff Porcaro > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-utahoutdoors@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-utahoutdoors@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Roger > Jenkins/Susie McDonald > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 1998 7:07 PM > To: utahoutdoors@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: [OUTDOORS] GPS > > > My sentiments exactly. A useful tool to augment your already good ability > to route find without it. I have had a GPS for 4 years now, and carry it > with me out west. I find that it usually confirms where I thought I was > anyway. At least that has been our experience in Utah's canyon country, > although with the deep canyons, it takes a long time to get a fix. Maybe > the newer ones are better. > > There are times that I have been in bad fog in the mtns > (Olympics, Cascades, > ets) where I had wished I had one. But we found our way anyway. > > A suggestion: use lithium batteries with them. Weigh less and > last longer. > > Roger > > Roger Jenkins/Susie McDonald > Co-Editors: the Tennes-Sierran > Our newsletter is available at: > www.cs.utk.edu/~dixon/hbgsierra.html > Check out the report of our Grand Canyon Backpack at: > www.kaibab.org/happy/gctr9805.htm > > > > >>Any comments from anyone who owns one of these units? How > useful have you > >>found it to be for hiking/backpacking adventures? Pros and cons? > > > >I find them very useful. Now that the cost is down to about > $100, they are > >a very worthwhile investment. > > > >I hike a lot in canyonlands where the terrain is so jumbled it > can be very > >hard to read the topo. With a GPS I can in a couple of minutes find out > >exactly what side canyon I am looking at. When you use UTM coordinates, > >you can tell just where you are on a topo map just by eyeballing it. (On > >older maps you would need to draw in the UTM grid -- but it's > there already > >on all the newer maps.) > > > >Two caveates: (1) Never rely solely on a GPS. If you do, it's batteries > >might give out and then you won't know where you are! (2) If you plan on > >using the GPS as a navigation aid, always remember to take a fix at your > >car before you start. I once got lost in a forrested area with > no visible > >landmarks. I had my GPS and a compass with me, but no topo map. I had > >forgotten to get a fix at the car, so the GPS was totally useless in > >finding my way back! I hadn't planned on using the GPS, but it > turned out > >I sure could have. > > > >The GPS is only accurate to within just less than a tenth of a > mile. I use > >it a lot for arch-hunting, but it is not accurate enough to get you right > >to an arch. This is unfortunate, especially in an area like Kentucky, > >where a natural arch can be totally invisible from 10 feet away > due to the > >thick vegetation. This is true even in Utah, where an arch can > be in such > >jumbled terrain that it is still very hard to find even if you have > >accurate coordinates for it in your GPS. > > > >GPS units are great. I highly recommend them. Just be aware of their > >limitations. > > > > > >- > > > > > > > > > - > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: blager@es.com Subject: [OUTDOORS] Capitol Reef / Goblin Valley Date: 01 Jul 1998 09:49:18 -0600 Several years ago I installed a radio link on South Ridge of the Henry Mountains. The link provided communications for Aspen Achievement Academy who ran youth programs through Capitol Reef and the surrounding area. I couldn't help but marvel at the beauty of the area, and have taken several trips back to the park. The staff at AAA knows the area thoroughly and can give you great suggestions of where to go, as well as current conditions. One year I took a group of scouts in late April. There was snow falling as we arrived and camped at Fruita campground, but it melted immediately. There were about 30 head of deer in the campground the next morning. (I have yet to pass the Fruita orchards without seeing a large buck lounging in the shade.) We did a 10-mile hike through Spring Canyon (or Chimney Rock Canyon depending on the map), starting at the Chimney Rock trailhead just West of the visitor center. This was a relatively easy, dry hike through utterly fantastic scenery. Canyon walls that rise straight and smooth 300 feet up on both sides of you are truly awesome. The only difficulty on this hike is at the end of the trail, where you must ford the Fremont River to get back to Highway 24. It is fairly swift and waist deep. Another year I took the scouts backpacking from the Notom road into Sheets Gulch in April. Spring rain left about 3 feet of water and heavy mud in the narrow sections of this canyon, but they were passable. The boys loved the adventure. We spent the second day hiking down lower Muley Twist canyon from the Burr Trail, and out over the cutoff trail to the Post. Water was scarce in this area. The hiking was excellent. The canyon floor is mostly flat gravel and was very easy. The cutoff trail is somewhat difficult to follow. In several places it crosses large expanses of slickrock, or cuts back unpredictably, and one must keep a sharp eye out for the rock piles which mark the trail. We found the slickrock littered with sandstone marbles, petrified wood, and other marvels. Since it is a protected and lightly used area, these attractions should remain for years to come. Another visit to the park was in October with my family. After paying the fee, we took the scenic drive down to Capitol Wash. It was cool and very breezy, so we took in all the scenery from the car that day. Really enjoyed my stay in the Roadhouse Inn in Loa. My biggest disappointment is failing to see the buffalo. Americas largest free roaming heard (was it 500 head?) of buffalo haunts the area between the Notom-Bullfrog road and the Henry Mountains. It is a neat area filled with mesas and scenes right out of a western movie. I drove East past Sandy Ranch 4 or 5 times, and never spotted any of them. Anyway, I highly recommend Capitol Reef. It is not crowded, is very beautiful, has great slot canyons, great deep canyon hikes, petroglyphs, and is geologically fascinating. Capitol Reef is not too far from Goblin Valley. My scouts favorite campout is to spend 3 days at Goblin Valley. One morning is spent hiking up Bell and down Little Wild Horse Canyon. The afternoons and nights are spent gaming among the goblins. We divide in two teams for bean bag war until dark, and then play capture the flag with 12-hour glow sticks after dark (a half moon is best). I concur with earlier reports of wind problems. It can blow a light sand storm out there for days, making hiking and eating miserable. Rain is not much problem. In fact, last fall we spent two days there without a drop of rain, yet there was lightning, downpours and flash floods 10 miles away at the San Rafael Reef. Bert Lagerstedt - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CJohnson@admin.clntnel.davis.k12.ut.us (Charles Johnson) Date: 02 Jul 1998 10:58:13 -0700 unsubscribe utahoutdoors - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dyer-group@juno.com Subject: [OUTDOORS] Re: Date: 02 Jul 1998 17:00:37 EDT Why am I getting unsubscribe messages???????? _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob L. Anawalt" Subject: Re: [OUTDOORS] Re: Date: 02 Jul 1998 15:19:10 -0600 Many people may answer you, but hopefully they do it all directly and not through the list so that we all get it. The people who have sent unsubscribe messages to the list have sent it to the wrong address. Either they have forgotten the address sent to them in their initial welcome to the list, or they have deleted that address and the only one they know is the mailing list address. You could email them about it, or just delete the messages. Have a good day! dyer-group@juno.com wrote: > > Why am I getting unsubscribe messages???????? > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Kenison Subject: Re: [OUTDOORS] Re: Date: 02 Jul 1998 15:45:06 -0600 (MDT) On Thu, 2 Jul 1998 dyer-group@juno.com wrote: > Why am I getting unsubscribe messages???????? Many users not familiar with listserver operation forget that administrative messages should be send to the server address, not to the list address. For our case, that means that if you want to unsubscribe, send a message to "majordomo@xmission.com" with the words "unsubscribe utahoutdoors" (without quotes) in the message body. Be patient... some people are learning! David Kenison - Orem, Utah dkenison@xmission.com My Homepage URL: http://www.xmission.com/~dkenison/ Internet Lists: LDS-GEMS, Cougar-Net, UtahOutdoors, Brasil-SUD - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Val Hale" Subject: [OUTDOORS] King's Peak Date: 02 Jul 1998 22:25:39 -0600 I would like to climb King's Peak at the end of this month. I'm wondering if the snow will be melted sufficiently to make the climb at that time. Also, I was wondering how difficult the climb is from Henry's Fork up over Gunsight Pass and Anderson Pass. I have a 13-year-old daughter who has done some pretty strenuous trips with me. Would she be able to make the climb? Thanks for any info. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Kenison Subject: RE: [OUTDOORS] King's Peak Date: 03 Jul 1998 15:22:47 -0600 (MDT) The following message bounced, because it was not posted from the account which is subscribed to the list... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- I went to Bald Mountain today (July 3rd) hoping to hike the short 2 miles to the top, but there was a general cover of 1 to 3 feet of snow at about 10,500 ft. It was probably about 65 to 70 degrees at 1 pm and melting, but I'd be skeptical that King's Peak would be clear of snow (or at least most of the snow) until the beginning of August, possibly later. Steve smann@gearreview.com www.gearreview.com > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-utahoutdoors@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-utahoutdoors@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Val Hale > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 1998 10:26 PM > To: utahoutdoors@lists.xmission.com > Subject: [OUTDOORS] King's Peak > > > I would like to climb King's Peak at the end of this month. I'm wondering > if the snow will be melted sufficiently to make the climb at that time. > Also, I was wondering how difficult the climb is from Henry's Fork up over > Gunsight Pass and Anderson Pass. I have a 13-year-old daughter who has > done some pretty strenuous trips with me. Would she be able to make the > climb? Thanks for any info. > > > - > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eric Cytrynbaum Subject: Re: [OUTDOORS] Astronomical Observation Tunnels Date: 03 Jul 1998 16:53:36 -0600 (MDT) > On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Moe Harley wrote: > P.S. Would appreciate any info on good camp sites in the american fork > area, i went over to the uinta forest, (by timp. cave) and enjoyed the > camp spot, but they charged me an arm and a leg. And its still quite cold > there at nights. Thanks. I was up near Timp about three weeks ago and choked at the cost of camping. We arrived after dark and intended to hit the trail at 5:00am so there was no way we were going to pay for camping. Asking around, we found out that camping off the road is free anywhere from Aspen Grove up and over into American Fork. There are several pullouts along that road. Some of them look like nice spots, others serve the purpose of "a flat spot to sleep while the sun is down". I don't know when it warms up but we had a cold night too. There's still alot of snow up on Timp. Also, a little while back someone posted a web address for info on Paria Canyon (thanks for that!). The address given was slightly off. It's not hard to find the right page but here's where I finally found it - http://www.for.nau.edu/paria-permits/parinfo.html Eric P.S. Glad to see the list didn't get canned. And it seems to be a lot more active than before the "Great Flood". - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brad" Subject: Re: [OUTDOORS] King's Peak Date: 03 Jul 1998 22:53:18 -0600 I think your daughter should be able to make that route ok. It is strenuous but not terribly difficult. The day I was there a couple of years ago there were quite a few 12 and 13 year old boys up there. -----Original Message----- >I would like to climb King's Peak at the end of this month. I'm wondering >if the snow will be melted sufficiently to make the climb at that time. >Also, I was wondering how difficult the climb is from Henry's Fork up over >Gunsight Pass and Anderson Pass. I have a 13-year-old daughter who has >done some pretty strenuous trips with me. Would she be able to make the >climb? Thanks for any info. > > >- > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Steve Mann" Subject: RE: [OUTDOORS] King's Peak Date: 04 Jul 1998 00:47:22 -0600 I went to Bald Mountain today (July 3rd) hoping to hike the short 2 miles to the top, but there was a general cover of 1 to 3 feet of snow at about 10,500 ft. It was probably about 65 to 70 degrees at 1 pm and melting, but I'd be skeptical that King's Peak would be clear of snow (or at least most of the snow) until the beginning of August, possibly later. Steve smann@gearreview.com www.gearreview.com > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-utahoutdoors@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-utahoutdoors@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Val Hale > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 1998 10:26 PM > To: utahoutdoors@lists.xmission.com > Subject: [OUTDOORS] King's Peak > > > I would like to climb King's Peak at the end of this month. I'm wondering > if the snow will be melted sufficiently to make the climb at that time. > Also, I was wondering how difficult the climb is from Henry's Fork up over > Gunsight Pass and Anderson Pass. I have a 13-year-old daughter who has > done some pretty strenuous trips with me. Would she be able to make the > climb? Thanks for any info. > > > - > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Lawrence Subject: Re: [OUTDOORS] King's Peak Date: 06 Jul 1998 06:55:08 -0600 For the first question regarding the snow, I would check with the forest service. It usually is not a problem by the end of July, but this year there has been an unusual amount dumped. Some snow might make it even an easier hike though. For the hike up Henry's fork, this is a great hike. It can be somewhat crowded at times, as this is the most popular route to Kings. There is a lot of space in the large Henry's fork basin though to disperse the people. We had a group of about 8 people. Four of us were ready for the hike and four were not. The first four made it to Henry's fork lake about 2:00 pm and the others not until after dinner, starting the hike around 9:00 am. You start out the first three or four of miles in trees, steadily climbing. The rest of the hike to Henry's Fork lake is a wide open valley with great views. You can see Kings peak through a notch at the end of the large valley (the distance to it is misleading). We planned on a day to Henry's fork lake, a day for the peak, a day for fishing and R&R, and a day to hike out. For the peak if you follow the trail up over gunsight down into the next basin and back up to Anderson pass is somewhat long route with a lot of elevation loss you need to make back up. (though your on a trail the whole way). We followed the trail up to gunsight pass, at which point we skirted the edge of the mountain on the west of us and then bolder hoped (very large boulders) across to Anderson pass, its a lot further away than it looks. From there Kings is a rock scramble up to the top. On the way back down we decided it would be easier to go down through the notch that you can see Kings Peak through on the way up the Henry's fork trail. This ended up being a great time saver. (probably in the area of 2 to 4 hours if following the trail). You need to stay to the West as you get to the bottom of the chute or you'll end up in a marshy area. The area was open with a few ups and downs until we got back to base camp on the West side of Henry's Fork Lake. If I was to hike Kings again I would go up this way also. After my suggestion, a few friends of mine said that it worked great for them as long as they stayed to the sides of the chute and climbed/scrambled up the rocks that were firm. I believe your daughter could make this hike, but I would plan on a day to go from base camp to summit and back. We had a 12 year old with us and by the time he got back to base camp he "lost his cookies", but was fine the next day. (this was his first high altitude hike though). Fishing was great, especially the stream out of Henry's for lake. Anyway good luck. >>> "Val Hale" 07/02 10:25 PM >>> I would like to climb King's Peak at the end of this month. I'm wondering if the snow will be melted sufficiently to make the climb at that time. Also, I was wondering how difficult the climb is from Henry's Fork up over Gunsight Pass and Anderson Pass. I have a 13-year-old daughter who has done some pretty strenuous trips with me. Would she be able to make the climb? Thanks for any info. - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Kenison Subject: [OUTDOORS] Backpacking article Date: 07 Jul 1998 10:52:53 -0600 (MDT) There's an article in today's Salt Lake Tribune titled "Backpacking basics: Be honest about how much you can carry." See: http://www.sltrib.com/1998/jul/07071998/outdoors/42080.htm The article talks about backpack sizes, normal loads, the "internal vs. external" issue, etc. Some interesting stuff. One paragraph from the article said: "Holbrook said while there are no hard and fast rules for distributing weight inside a backpack, it is usually a good idea to put the heaviest gear on top and the lightest on the bottom. When hiking in more rugged terrain, he suggested putting the heaviest gear in the middle so there is no problem with the center of gravity." I've always put heavier items towards the bottom or middle, not the top. Anyone know why the recommendation for top-heavy packing? I've seen scouts literally tip over because of packs that were top-heavy... of course, most scouts tend to WAY overpack anyway, but that's another topic. David Kenison - Orem, Utah dkenison@xmission.com My Homepage URL: http://www.xmission.com/~dkenison/ Internet Lists: LDS-GEMS, Cougar-Net, UtahOutdoors, Brasil-SUD - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eric Cytrynbaum Subject: Re: [OUTDOORS] Backpacking article Date: 07 Jul 1998 11:06:50 -0600 (MDT) That's sounds very surprising to me. I always try to pack heavy stuff as low and close to my back as possible. My impression is that changes the center of gravity the least (lowering it, if anything). Convenience of access is the only reason I would do otherwise (I have a single, top access bag). Can't imagine any benefit to a top heavy bag ??? Eric > One paragraph from the article said: > > "Holbrook said while there are no hard and fast rules for distributing > weight inside a backpack, it is usually a good idea to put the heaviest > gear on top and the lightest on the bottom. When hiking in more rugged > terrain, he suggested putting the heaviest gear in the middle so there is > no problem with the center of gravity." > > I've always put heavier items towards the bottom or middle, not the top. > Anyone know why the recommendation for top-heavy packing? I've seen > scouts literally tip over because of packs that were top-heavy... of > course, most scouts tend to WAY overpack anyway, but that's another topic. > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Porcaro" Subject: RE: [OUTDOORS] Backpacking article Date: 07 Jul 1998 11:16:28 -0600 My understanding of load balancing is: The Heavy packing on the top of the pack is most used when you have a External Frame pack. The Low load balancing of an internal frame pack works better when the weight is on the bottom. Jeff Porcaro > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-utahoutdoors@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-utahoutdoors@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Eric > Cytrynbaum > Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 1998 11:07 AM > To: utahoutdoors@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: [OUTDOORS] Backpacking article > > > > That's sounds very surprising to me. I always try to pack heavy stuff as > low and close to my back as possible. My impression is that changes the > center of gravity the least (lowering it, if anything). Convenience of > access is the only reason I would do otherwise (I have a single, top > access bag). Can't imagine any benefit to a top heavy bag ??? > > Eric > > > > > > > One paragraph from the article said: > > > > "Holbrook said while there are no hard and fast rules for distributing > > weight inside a backpack, it is usually a good idea to put the heaviest > > gear on top and the lightest on the bottom. When hiking in more rugged > > terrain, he suggested putting the heaviest gear in the middle > so there is > > no problem with the center of gravity." > > > > I've always put heavier items towards the bottom or middle, not the top. > > Anyone know why the recommendation for top-heavy packing? I've seen > > scouts literally tip over because of packs that were top-heavy... of > > course, most scouts tend to WAY overpack anyway, but that's > another topic. > > > > > - > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrews, R. Boyd" Subject: Re: [OUTDOORS] Backpacking article Date: 07 Jul 1998 12:29:00 -0500 Having used a number of different packs packed a number of different ways - and watched as many others have as well - I think there is no set way to achieve perfection - though I concur on the internal/external frame observation made earlier Here are several things that have helped me :(I tend to travel heavy as I travel with assundry others who are less than able) I like the heaviest stuff smack in the middle (non-lunch food +fuel+stove) I've added a couple of H2O holders and a small carry case (from Lowe) on to my front straps - this takes maybe 4 pounds (possibly 10%) and shifts it forward and helps on convenience - I go wide and not up - a balanced, wide load that is a bit easier to negotiate than a mile high pack I studied the guide on how to correctly (sequentially ) adjust straps that adorn the new packs - it's vital to how you will carry the load on your back - (just as important as how you stuff your pack) I always offer my Gross Old Rotten Peanuts to the group first - lightens the load sooner I enjoy the list - keep the recommendations on spots coming! ---------- That's sounds very surprising to me. I always try to pack heavy stuff as low and close to my back as possible. My impression is that changes the center of gravity the least (lowering it, if anything). Convenience of access is the only reason I would do otherwise (I have a single, top access bag). Can't imagine any benefit to a top heavy bag ??? Eric > One paragraph from the article said: > > "Holbrook said while there are no hard and fast rules for distributing > weight inside a backpack, it is usually a good idea to put the heaviest > gear on top and the lightest on the bottom. When hiking in more rugged > terrain, he suggested putting the heaviest gear in the middle so there is > no problem with the center of gravity." > > I've always put heavier items towards the bottom or middle, not the top. > Anyone know why the recommendation for top-heavy packing? I've seen > scouts literally tip over because of packs that were top-heavy... of > course, most scouts tend to WAY overpack anyway, but that's another topic. > - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randall R. Arabie" Subject: Re: [OUTDOORS] Backpacking article Date: 07 Jul 1998 11:54:04 +0000 I have an internal frame pack and have always tried to load the heaviest items on the bottom. This just seemed the most logical way to load the pack and has always worked for me. I have heard the "heaviest on top" recommendation before, but I have not tried it. I was told that having heavier items on top would distribute the weight straight down (or place the burden) onto your hips, whereas if the heavier items were in the bottom, the weight there would pull down (or place the burden) on your shoulders. Randall R. Arabie Senior Staff Scientist EnecoTech, Inc. 1580 Lincoln Street, Ste. 1000 Denver, CO 80203 randyarabie@enecotech.com (303) 861-2200 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terri Smith PlanB John Horn Subject: Re: [OUTDOORS] Backpacking article Date: 07 Jul 1998 13:11:53 -0600 (MDT) I know the worst trip I ever did was with a full water bladder at the top of my pack. Too much weight, too high and threw my balance off. Now, at 5'2" my center of gravity is lower than most and at 105# my pack is only 30# but its all relative. I pack the heavy stuff in the middle. Terri Smith planb@xmission.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Jenkins/Susie McDonald" Subject: Re: [OUTDOORS] Backpacking article Date: 07 Jul 1998 21:34:11 -0400 Ok time for our two cents worth. I hve been backpacking for 21 years, and am noted for my non-small packs (or body, for that matter.) I have owned several packs, two external frame (both Kelty Tiogas) and am on my second internal frame. (First was Lowe Special Expedition, now I am wearing a Gregory Denali). The latter is the most comfortable pack I have ever put on, even when pushing 65 lbs. (I weigh 210, so such is not an unreasonable load, especially when my partner is only 100 lbs dripping wet.) First, when thinking about packing the pack, forget weight. What counts is density (weight per unit volume.) ( I know, I am starting to sound like some damn engineer or worse, yet, a chemist - the latter is who I am.). Except for some of the small metal objects in your pack (knife, SLR lens, etc) probably nothing will be as dense as the water you carry. Dense things need to go close to the point at which the pack system attaches to the body (shoulders and hips)..Why? Remember your high school physics class? The concept of leverage: a small force a long way from the point of support can lift more mass than a large mass close to the point of support. You don't want movement, so put the dense stuff where it can not act as a big lever. Near your shoulders, back and hips. That said, virtually everything in the main compartment of a backpack gets so squished together, it is all pretty much the density of packed nylon. I am not sure that moving it around inside the main sack will help much. I usually put the tent and and thermarest inside the pack, standing up. The rest of the gear (other than sleeping bag and incidentals, which go in the lower compartment) just get stuffed in. One last comment: my opinion is that people get packs that are too small, and end up hanging all kinds of gear on the outside. Think what that does for leverage. when I moved from external frame to internal frame, I measured the volume of all the bags that were on the outside of the frame (at the time, food sack, tent, sleeping bag and pad) and added such to the known volume of the frame's sack and came up with ca 7000 cu. inches for an 8 day trip. so that is the internal frame pack size I have. Roger Roger Jenkins/Susie McDonald Co-Editors: the Tennes-Sierran Our newsletter is available at: www.cs.utk.edu/~dixon/hbgsierra.html Check out the report of our Grand Canyon Backpack at: www.kaibab.org/happy/gctr9805.htm - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dolores Eggert" Subject: Re: [OUTDOORS] Backpacking article Date: 08 Jul 1998 10:50:56 -0400 "unsubscribe utahoutdoors for deggert@shore.intercom.net" ---------- > From: Roger Jenkins/Susie McDonald > To: utahoutdoors@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: [OUTDOORS] Backpacking article > Date: Tuesday, July 07, 1998 9:34 PM > > Ok time for our two cents worth. I hve been backpacking for 21 years, and > am noted for my non-small packs (or body, for that matter.) I have owned > several packs, two external frame (both Kelty Tiogas) and am on my second > internal frame. (First was Lowe Special Expedition, now I am wearing a > Gregory Denali). The latter is the most comfortable pack I have ever put > on, even when pushing 65 lbs. (I weigh 210, so such is not an unreasonable > load, especially when my partner is only 100 lbs dripping wet.) > > First, when thinking about packing the pack, forget weight. What counts is > density (weight per unit volume.) ( I know, I am starting to sound like > some damn engineer or worse, yet, a chemist - the latter is who I am.). > Except for some of the small metal objects in your pack (knife, SLR lens, > etc) probably nothing will be as dense as the water you carry. Dense things > need to go close to the point at which the pack system attaches to the body > (shoulders and hips)..Why? Remember your high school physics class? The > concept of leverage: a small force a long way from the point of support can > lift more mass than a large mass close to the point of support. You don't > want movement, so put the dense stuff where it can not act as a big lever. > Near your shoulders, back and hips. > > That said, virtually everything in the main compartment of a backpack gets > so squished together, it is all pretty much the density of packed nylon. I > am not sure that moving it around inside the main sack will help much. I > usually put the tent and and thermarest inside the pack, standing up. The > rest of the gear (other than sleeping bag and incidentals, which go in the > lower compartment) just get stuffed in. > > One last comment: my opinion is that people get packs that are too small, > and end up hanging all kinds of gear on the outside. Think what that does > for leverage. when I moved from external frame to internal frame, I > measured the volume of all the bags that were on the outside of the frame > (at the time, food sack, tent, sleeping bag and pad) and added such to the > known volume of the frame's sack and came up with ca 7000 cu. inches for an > 8 day trip. so that is the internal frame pack size I have. > > Roger > > Roger Jenkins/Susie McDonald > Co-Editors: the Tennes-Sierran > Our newsletter is available at: > www.cs.utk.edu/~dixon/hbgsierra.html > Check out the report of our Grand Canyon Backpack at: > www.kaibab.org/happy/gctr9805.htm > > > > > - > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terri Smith PlanB John Horn Subject: Re: [OUTDOORS] Backpacking article Date: 08 Jul 1998 10:21:19 -0600 (MDT) > > Ok time for our two cents worth. I hve been backpacking for 21 years, and > am noted for my non-small packs (or body, for that matter.) I have owned > several packs, two external frame (both Kelty Tiogas) and am on my second > internal frame. (First was Lowe Special Expedition, now I am wearing a > Gregory Denali). The latter is the most comfortable pack I have ever put > on, even when pushing 65 lbs. (I weigh 210, so such is not an unreasonable > load, especially when my partner is only 100 lbs dripping wet.) > My husband, another big guy, also has the Gregory Denali and loves it. In fact, he rented it for a weekend trip (we were trying out different packs) and he never returned it--just called up Denali and gave them his credit card number. At the extremely small end of the people-size scale I have a Dana pack which I love. The folks at Denali have great knowledge and there is a guy at Kirkhams named Rolf who is an expert at fitting packs. TTFN Terri Smith planb@xmission.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Kenison Subject: [OUTDOORS] Administrative commands Date: 08 Jul 1998 11:12:10 -0600 (MDT) On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, Dolores Eggert wrote: > > "unsubscribe utahoutdoors for deggert@shore.intercom.net" Remember, folks, if you want to unsubscribe, send the message to "majordomo@xmission.com" or to me. David Kenison - Orem, Utah dkenison@xmission.com My Homepage URL: http://www.xmission.com/~dkenison/ Internet Lists: LDS-GEMS, Cougar-Net, UtahOutdoors, Brasil-SUD - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Kenison Subject: [OUTDOORS] Camping Tips Date: 09 Jul 1998 13:12:47 -0600 (MDT) For those of us who enjoy camping, here are some indispensable suggestions... :-) ===== SOME CAMPING TIPS Courtesy: Tom Pace When using a public campground, a tuba placed on your picnic table will keep the campsites on either side vacant. Get even with a bear who raided your food bag by kicking his favorite stump apart and eating all the ants. Old socks can be made into high fiber beef jerky by smoking them over an open fire. When smoking a fish, never inhale. A hot rock placed in your sleeping bag will keep your feet warm. A hot enchilada works almost as well, but the cheese sticks between your toes. You'll never be awakened by the call of a loon if you have an unlisted number. The best backpacks are named for national parks or mountain ranges. Steer clear of parks named for landfills. Acupuncture was invented by a camper who found a porcupine in his sleeping bag. While the Swiss Army Knife has been popular for years, the Swiss Navy Knife has remained largely unheralded. Its single blade functions as a tiny canoe paddle. Modern rain suits made of fabrics that "breathe" enable campers to stay dry in a downpour. Rain suits that sneeze, cough, and belch, however, have been proven to add absolutely nothing to the wilderness experience. Lint from your navel makes a handy fire starter. Warning: Remove lint from navel before applying the match. You'll never be lost if you remember that moss always grows on the north side of your compass. You can duplicate the warmth of a down-filled bedroll by climbing into a plastic garbage bag with several geese. When camping, always wear a long-sleeved shirt. It gives you something to wipe your nose on. You can compress the diameter of your rolled up sleeping bag by running over it with your car. Take this simple test to see if you qualify for solo camping. Shine a flashlight into one ear. If the beam shines out the other ear, do not go into the woods alone. A two-man pup tent does not include two men or a pup. A potato baked in the coals for one hour makes an excellent side dish. A potato baked in the coals for three hours makes an excellent hockey puck. You can start a fire without matches by eating Mexican food, then breathing on a pile of dry sticks. In emergency situations, you can survive in the wilderness by shooting small game with a slingshot made from the elastic waistband of your underwear. The guitar of the noisy teenager at the next campsite makes excellent kindling. A large carp can be used for a pillow. Check the washing instructions before purchasing any apparel to be worn camping. Buy only those that read "Beat on a rock in stream." The sight of a bald eagle has thrilled campers for generations. The sight of a bald man, however, does absolutely nothing for the eagle. It's entirely possible to spend your whole vacation on a winding mountain road behind a large motor home. Effective January 1, 1999, you will actually have to enlist in the Swiss Army to get a Swiss Army Knife. Bear bells provide an element of safety for hikers in grizzly country. The tricky part is getting them on the bears. In an emergency, a drawstring from a parka hood can be used to strangle a snoring tent mate. David Kenison - Orem, Utah dkenison@xmission.com My Homepage URL: http://www.xmission.com/~dkenison/ Internet Lists: LDS-GEMS, Cougar-Net, UtahOutdoors, Brasil-SUD - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Len Fitzgerald Subject: [OUTDOORS] barometer & fishing Date: 14 Jul 1998 22:44:23 -0700 Hey everyone! I'm new to this news group so I hope I'm not asking something thats been hammered out forever,.... I've heard there is a connection between great fishing and barometer readings. Does anyone have any knowledge in this area? or is it just "wishful thinking" Lures allways, Lenny - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jmwarr@juno.com (James L Warr) Subject: [OUTDOORS] Mt. Nebo Date: 14 Jul 1998 20:04:00 -0600 Could someone please tell me how to find the trailhead to climb Mt. Nebo, and the best way up? Also how long does the climb take? Thanks. Jim Warr _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Len Fitzgerald Subject: [OUTDOORS] gotta share this gross fishing story... Date: 17 Jul 1998 23:10:02 -0700 The day after a man lost his wife in a scuba diving accident, he was greeted by two grim-faced policemen at his door. "We're sorry to call on you at this hour, Mr. Wilkens, but we have some information about your wife." "Well, tell me!" the man said. The policeman said, "We have some bad news, some good news and some really great news. Which do you want to hear first?" Fearing the worse, Mr. Wilkens said, "Give me the bad news first." So the policeman said, "I'm sorry to tell you sir, but this morning we found your wife's body in San Francisco Bay." "Oh my god!," said Mr. Wilkens, overcome by emotion. Then, remembering what the policeman had said, he asked, "What's the good news?" "Well," said the policeman, "When we pulled her up she had two five-pound lobsters and a dozen good size Dungeoness crabs on her." "If that's the good news than what's the great news?!", Mr. Wilkens demanded. The policeman said, "We're going to pull her up again tomorrow morning." - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Len Fitzgerald Subject: [OUTDOORS] car rental Date: 17 Jul 1998 23:36:11 -0700 Hello Utah! I'm going to be flying in next week to do some fishing and I've got to get a rental car when I arrive. Do any of you know of a good discount or coupon available so I don't get ripped off too bad? Lures only, Len - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: [OUTDOORS] [Q] Cascade Peak Date: 18 Jul 1998 09:49:06 -0600 Michael Kelsey says the easiest and fastest way to the top of Cascade Peak (the long high ridge east of Orem) is to drive up the Squaw Peak road to the quarry, hike up the west face through evergreen and oak brush, and then walk north along the summit ridge to the high point. Is there anyone on UtahOutdoors who has tried this route and would like to offer his/her perspective? In particular, is this west face route a steep (but unexposed) walk-up like, say, the west ridge of Provo Peak, or is it more involved than that? Chris Grant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ken Subject: [OUTDOORS] Unita status Date: 19 Jul 1998 21:58:10 -0700 Hello, Just thought I send out a quick email to ask how the Unitas are doing right now. My wife and I are planning to leave up there around July 27th and travel any where from Murdock Basin to Whitney Lake ( Big area ). With the talk of bears and the latest string of heat, how is the bear warnings going and the extreme snow melt. Looking to do some hiking aroung Alexander Lake and camp for a few days. Thanks for the info in advance. Ken " Fool me once, shame on you... Fool me twice, shame on me." ------------------------// Ken Jaynes \\---------------------- Email Adress: mailto:outdoors@utw.com Web Pages: http://www.utw.com/~outdoors - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Lawrence Subject: [OUTDOORS] Uinta Conditions - Hike Cuberant Lakes Date: 20 Jul 1998 06:59:52 -0600 I just went to Cuberant Lake #4 in the Uintas this past weekend with some scouts (7/17 & 7/18). We arrived at the trailhead Friday at 8:00 AM. The hike in was approx. 3 miles. There are still patches of snow in some places, but its melting fast. We came back out on Saturday. It was very warm at the lake considering its at approx 10,400 foot in elevation. We even took a swim (the water was a little bit on the cold side), on Friday afternoon. We didn't catch or see any fish action on Cuberant Lake #4. There were some fish in the stream coming out of Cuberant Lake #4. From what I saw in the area it looks as if most of the Uintas are accessible. Even looking at Bald Mountain (11,943') and Reids peak (11,708'), both looked accessible, even though snow was still on them in large patches. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Lawrence Subject: [OUTDOORS] West Fork, Blacks Fork River, Uintas Date: 21 Jul 1998 07:16:23 -0600 I'm looking for any information regarding the road that goes to the West Fork Blacks Fork Trail Head on the North Slope of the Uintas (the trail head to Dead Horse Lake). Mainly if a high clearance two wheel drive pickup could make it? Thanks for any info. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kathy & Lynn Subject: Re: [OUTDOORS] West Fork, Blacks Fork River, Uintas Date: 21 Jul 1998 10:22:54 -0600 I did this drive several years ago in a little Isuzu P'up. This was a low clearance truck. It took the drive fine, except that the road is narrow in some spots and someone has to back up if another truck comes. I think your truck will do fine if it's not muddy. Kathy Bill Lawrence wrote: > I'm looking for any information regarding the road that goes to the West Fork > Blacks Fork Trail Head on the North Slope of the Uintas (the trail head to Dead > Horse Lake). Mainly if a high clearance two wheel drive pickup could make it? > > Thanks for any info. > > > > > > > > > > - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "gcburt" Subject: Re: [OUTDOORS] West Fork, Blacks Fork River, Uintas Date: 21 Jul 1998 12:08:03 -0500 Ah, Ha -- did Daddy know? -----Original Message----- >I did this drive several years ago in a little Isuzu P'up. This was a low >clearance truck. It took the drive fine, except that the road is narrow in some >spots and someone has to back up if another truck comes. I think your truck will >do fine if it's not muddy. > >Kathy > >Bill Lawrence wrote: > >> I'm looking for any information regarding the road that goes to the West Fork >> Blacks Fork Trail Head on the North Slope of the Uintas (the trail head to Dead >> Horse Lake). Mainly if a high clearance two wheel drive pickup could make it? >> >> Thanks for any info. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> - > > > > >- > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brad Edwards Subject: [OUTDOORS] Uintas camping question Date: 27 Jul 1998 09:19:33 -0700 (PDT) We had planned to go family camping at Mirror Lake but it is closed. Can anyone recommend any other good sites around that area? _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kathy & Lynn Subject: Re: [OUTDOORS] Uintas camping question Date: 28 Jul 1998 08:35:24 -0600 I think that any of the other open campgrounds around the Uinta area are equally beautiful. I noticed that there were only a few closed at the first of July, and most of those are probably open now due to the 100+ weather we've had the last few weeks. Trial Lake is a beautiful area, as are many of the campgrounds on the north of Mirror Lake. Whitney Reservoir is a nice campground, but off the road somewhat. Christmas Meadows, Lily Lake (2 of them), and several other campgrounds have a lake right next to them. I wish I could try them all. The whole area is beautiful. Lots of nice hiking, too. Kathy Brad Edwards wrote: > We had planned to go family camping at Mirror Lake but it is closed. > Can anyone recommend any other good sites around that area? > -