From: John Zorn List Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 1997 10:27 AM To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com Subject: John Zorn List V2 #143 John Zorn List Wednesday, November 5 1997 Volume 02 : Number 143 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:11:54 -0600 From: jihad7@juno.com (Nathan M Earixson) Subject: Re: John Zorn List V2 #141 On Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:18:49 +0100 Nuno BARREIRO writes: > - Zappa is the most outstanding exemple of heteroclism in conteporary >music. > It is incredible how the recordings from the sixties are >avant-garde, even > now. Saying that it's a "mediocre white guy playing tricked-up >r'n'r" is > just plain bullshit, in the sense that it doens't mean anything and >that > it shows complete ignorance of his music! So, Mr. James Douglas >Knox, go > listen to some Zappa and the Mothers!!! You know I do have a lot of respect for Frank Zappa, but I tend to agree with Mister Knox. It's not like I've never listened to a Zorn album (Nani Nani, anyone?) and said "he's just some dude making noise!" I mean, "Jazz from hell" was a mistake, admit it. I think the assumption that anyone who "really gives Zappa a chance" is instantly going to become your stereotypical rabid-Zappa-fan who laughs incessantly at "joke" songs like "Why does it hurt when I pee", is just plain foolish. Grammatically, I think something is wrong with that sentrece, but when I look at it, it seems ok. What gives? P.s. I don't even know what Heteroclism is. Am I just stupid? - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:31:36 -0800 From: "Schwitterz" Subject: Re: John Zorn List V2 #141 >-----Original Message----- >From: Nuno BARREIRO >> - Zappa is the most outstanding exemple of heteroclism in conteporary >music. What does 'heteroclism' mean? >>It is incredible how the recordings from the sixties are avant-garde, even now. I still enjoy some 60s Mothers now and again, but there's not much post 60s Zappa that I would consider avant-garde. What about the 60s recordings makes them avant-garde now? sZ - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 09:46:47 -0800 From: Jeff Spirer Subject: Re: John Zorn List V2 #141 At 09:31 AM 11/5/97 -0800, Schwitterz wrote: >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Nuno BARREIRO > > >>> - Zappa is the most outstanding exemple of heteroclism in conteporary >>music. > >What does 'heteroclism' mean? I was wondering about this myself. So I looked in the dictionary (American Heritage New College Edition) and failed to find the word. In an effort to find something similar, in other words, the word that was intended, I found this word: heterotaxis: Abnormal structural arrangement which I am sure would make a welcome addition to someone's post on this mailing list. Jeff Spirer Axiom/Material http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:55:28 -0800 From: Jason Tors Subject: Heteroclism =46or all that do not know the meaning of the word... heteroclite-departing from the standard or norm, abnormal, rare. I am not smart, I looked it up. **=B6* =86=905=F8N**T=F8=AE5*=B6=BA=BA jasontors - ->junior art director__usinteractive_212.685.3727 jtors@usinteractive.com (=B4=B4=AE=B4=B4) (=B4=B4=AE= =B4=B4) - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 10:23:28 -0800 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (more hot air) On Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:27:21 +1100 (EST) James Douglas Knox wrote: > > I dunno, I just don't know... > > On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Dgasque wrote: > > > In a message dated 97-11-03 02:40:25 EST, you write: > > > > << A friend of mine recently visited the Knitting Factory for a show. He was > > lucky enought to talk to the musicians before and after the performance, > > and wrote me via email of his adventures. Funny thing, he mentioned that > > many people he talked to thought that Zorn was overexposing himself. > > Despite being a great musician, and always surrounding himself with great > > musicians, is there such a thing as too much Zorn? >> > > > > Zorn overexposing himself? Hmmmm. Well, if one were to think about the > > voluminous output of Zappa, Sun Ra, Coltrane, Miles, Ellington, etc., and the > > number of concerts that all of these artists performed, and the number of > > great musicians that surrounded them, I would think that Zorn's just getting > > started... > > Fer sure; but you haven't addressed the second part of the original query > (what is the likely legacy of Zorn's work). And the inclusion of Zappa in > the above list is pretty telling. I'm not alone in being totally > bewildered by the esteem some people hold this guy in. For me, he's just a > mediocre white guy playing tricked-up r'n'r. My personal opinion is that ^^^^^^^^ You seem to be very demanding, aren't you? That you don't consider Zappa as a genius is one thing (and like you said, you are not the only one). But going to the extreme of qualifying him "mediocre"? There is a lot of room between a genius and a mediocre artist (I assume that we can still rate music with a non-binary system...). > Zappa's stuff hasn't aged very well - it was kind of goofy and whacky at > the time, but at a distance its increasingly hard to see what the fuss was > about. I am sometimes wondering what kind of music is aging poorly when I see all the fads about cocktail/disco/lounge/space... I am also wondering if we (the human race) have not lost the recipee for making bad music... Even the most embarrassing music of the '60s is getting indulgent comments and nostalgic tears... > Don't get me wrong - I love Zorn's work. I just wish he'd push himself a > bit more. From my remote vantage down here in Aus, it just seems like he's ^^^^^^^^ You are right, Zorn is getting really laid back these days :-). Are you serious when you are saying that? I would be very curious to know an artist that you think is "pushing himself". Could you drop a couple of names for us to know what you mean by that? > exploiting an audience that's all too ready to buy whatever he releases to ^^^^^^^^^^ As far as we are concerned, Zorn is not forcing us to buy his stuff. If there is anything wrong, it would be stupidity from our part (for buying anything he puts out). "exploiting" is a very strong word with a well meaning; I doubt its use is correct in this context. > the market, without any regard for whether its actually any good. Lucky ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Among the artists who "over-produce", do you know of any who keeps the quality at the top with *EVERY* thing they release? Also, there is the possibility (not to dismiss) that what will really last from Zorn's production might be something that does not appeal to you at all. We are all enamoured of various kinds of music. Has any of us the slighest clue of what will stay with time? What might appear to us as breakthrough, might end up as pure gimmick. And the little record that nobody took seriously because of its lack of "breakthrough" might happen to be the one people will really play and remember in 20 years. Why? Maybe because talent was behind its genesis, and not "innovation-at-any-price". But sure, how boring such record looks like right now. > for him I guess; but sometimes I feel like right now he's in retreat from > the bolder, consistent, conceptual advances of previous years. Y'know; in I like these kind of comments. It reminds me of what Roman emperors might have been, turning their thumb up or down based on their level of boredom. Might have been tough to be an artist without a new bag of tricks for every performance... But I keep on forgetting how comfortable the "consummer seat" position is: just waiting for being entertained. And no pity for the artist who fails to come up with new tricks with every record. > his Op interview (from '84 or something) he's talking about he wants to > dedicate some time and energy to a really intensive manipulation of his > saxophone playing, concrete style. V probably a fantastic sounding thing, > but it'd mean him sitting in a studio for an extended period of time, > working out some radically new approaches to his music. And we're still > waiting. Of course, it is always the "yet-to-come" stuff that is the best :-). What makes you think that this stuff would be better that what Zorn has been working on recently (besides the fact that it is not on record)? Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 10:24:39 -0800 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: John Zorn List V2 #141 On Wed, 05 Nov 1997 09:46:47 -0800 Jeff Spirer wrote: > > At 09:31 AM 11/5/97 -0800, Schwitterz wrote: > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: Nuno BARREIRO > > > > > >>> - Zappa is the most outstanding exemple of heteroclism in conteporary > >>music. > > > >What does 'heteroclism' mean? We have something very similar in French. It means varied. Patrice. > I was wondering about this myself. So I looked in the dictionary (American > Heritage New College Edition) and failed to find the word. In an effort to > find something similar, in other words, the word that was intended, I found > this word: > > heterotaxis: Abnormal structural arrangement > > which I am sure would make a welcome addition to someone's post on this > mailing list. > > > Jeff Spirer > Axiom/Material > http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/ > > - > > - - ------------------------------ End of John Zorn List V2 #143 *****************************