From: Zorn List Digest Sent: Monday, November 17, 1997 10:45 PM To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #165 Zorn List Digest Monday, November 17 1997 Volume 02 : Number 165 In this issue: - Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton style without content) RE: The Big Deal With Naked City Re: Stalker (was: lustmord) Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content) Re: Buckethead question... Re: some crazy-arse Jewish violin music... Last word on pain... Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #164 RE: The big deal with _Naked City_ Re: The big deal with _Naked City_ RE: Wynton/Blues Re: Ascension or Descension? RE: Japan Overseas RE: Japan Overseas (no music content) Re: Stalker (was: lustmord) RE: Bring Me The Head Of John Zorn! (just kidding) Re: Ascension or Descension? Re: Ascension or Descension? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:40:49 -0800 From: "Schwitterz" Subject: Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton style without content) >>I think the only place Wynton is likely to lead anyone is to Brooks Brothers or Armani. This is patently false. Every time I hear Wynton, I go running back to Zorn. s)Z - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:52:13 -0800 From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) Subject: RE: The Big Deal With Naked City >I think Naked City (considering all their CD's) is Zorn's best work so far. >I read somewhere that, with Naked City, he set out to cover as much musical >ground as possible, using a basic rock-n-roll quintet lineup. And what a >"basic" lineup it was, with 5 of the most superbly talented and creative >musicians anywhere. Think about it, a band where the awesome technique of >Fred Frith, is just devoted to bass... > Y'know, some of us bass players may take offence to that statement..."just devoted to bass"??? But seriously, Frith became one of my all-time favorite bassists with that record. ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:52:04 -0800 From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) Subject: Re: Stalker (was: lustmord) >On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Jesse Simon wrote: > >> >> I've only heard one of his works, a collaboration with Robert Rich called >> >> "Stalker", which is an amazing disc of glacially slow moving ambient >> >> electronic drones, inspired by the even more amazing Tarkovsky film of the >> >> I've never heard the album, but highly recommend the film. It is a very >> slow and very profound cinematic experience. > >I 2nd those sentiments - its a great film (Tarkovsky's "Solaris" >likewise). Excellent sound design, also. I've got a feeling the >soundtrack was released on EVA in Japan. > "Solaris" has one of the most effective and haunting soundtracks of any film, and it sounds like a great deal of it is classic analog tape musique concrete. Do you have any details on where one could actually get this? ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:58:34 -0600 (CST) From: y9d62@TTACS.TTU.EDU Subject: Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content) Many people were waiting for his first release, though I was too young to care. Marsalis had been playing with the Jazz Messengers and was creating quite a stir, similar to the one Roy Hargrove was making a few years ago. Only 19 when he got the Blakey gig, his 'voice' was already apparent, and despite its references to the past, most folks were glad to hear it. I don't think he started getting in trouble with certain crowds until he opened his mouth, so to speak, years later. But this phenomenon is not unique to Wynton Marsalis. =20 On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, [UNKNOWN] =F4=F4 wrote: > JRZ wrote: > > To tell the truth I agreed with Wynton in the 80's. All of the modern j= azz > > I was being exposed to was fusak crap. I didn't really care for his stu= ff > > but at least it was listenable. > >=20 > > Most of the interesting Jazz made today is just not accesible to the > > average music fan. People aren't going to make the jump from "No Doubt"= to > > today's avant garde improv type music. They need to jump back a few dec= ades > > and work their way forward, if Wynton points them back to the old guard > > greats then his existence is justified in full. It's not like you can c= atch > > the Miles Davis Quintet at the Vanguard. >=20 > Wynton's poularity is more a reflection of record company politics than > anything else. Wynton was more or less anointed by CBS. Had anyone ever > even heard of him before his first major label release? CBS put huge > amounts of money into recording and promoting him, Did they do this > because people were clamoring for Wynton Marsalis's music? Or was it > that they saw the potential income from a well dressed, erudite, > non-threatening black man playing conservative music in a conservative > era. Yes, he is a decent trumpet player, but in comparison to Don > Cherry, Mongezi Feza, or even newcomers like Dave Douglas, I just dont > think he deserves the accolades that have been handed to him. > =09There is an old story about how, after recording Skies Of America, > Ornette went to the record company, with the expectation that they would > finance a tour, with an orchestra, and he was practically laughed out of > the room. Yet a minor talent like Marsalis, is given a curators chair at > Lincoln Center.....Go figure. > =09 With his dismissive attitude toward anything that doesn't meet his > definition of Jazz, I think the only place Wynton is likely to lead > anyone is to Brooks Brothers or Armani. In fact I would venture to say > that a JZ or a Tim Berne, despite their obscurity, are more likely to > lead potential listeners to the good stuff. >=20 > End of Rant. >=20 >=20 > - >=20 >=20 - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:52:10 -0800 From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) Subject: Re: Buckethead question... >I came across a Buckethead double CD entitled _Bucketheadland_ on Avant for a >really cheap price- $10. Your thumbs up/down please. > >=dgasque= If it was more than $10, I'd say pass on it, but for that, I dunno, maybe. I paid something like $39 for it and HATED it. To me it just sounds like 4-track noodling, albeit much faster than usual. But I sild it to a guitarist friend who found some stuff he liked. ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:40:18 -0600 (CST) From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: some crazy-arse Jewish violin music... I haven't seen him mentioned here, but for some amazing on-the-edge violin playing, check out anything by Malcom Goldstein. He focuses, to a great extent, on sounds that people are taught not to make on the violin, but may greatly appeal to people here. See the Deepl Listening catalog at http://www.deeplistening.org/dlc/28golds.html for some of his work. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:55:39 -0600 From: Evan Jones Subject: Last word on pain... Hello, I sent an e-mail to earache about PK and this is the answer I received.... ++++++++++ Ev, On January 27, 1998, we will be re-issuing "Buried Secrets" & "Guts of a Virgin" on one disc. If you like to order it or have any other questions please send them to the Earache Mail Order dept. EARACHEMO@aol.com Thanks, Pete ++++++++++ Now, to wait 'till January really isn't that bad considering you'd otherwise have to pay a shitload to get them... but it's yer life. Evan ------------------------ "Ya know, I've watched a lot of horror flicks in my day, and all I have to say is DON'T MESS AROUND WITH BOOKS IN LATIN WITH PENTAGRAMS ON THEM!!!" - Ev. http://www.flash.net/~baka/home.html - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:11:25 -0500 (EST) From: William Johnston Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #164 Please let me know how I can go about getting off of this thing. Thank you. Bill Johnston - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 18:01:40 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: RE: The big deal with _Naked City_ On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, James Douglas Knox wrote: > But I think its maybe its a bit reductive to dismiss this disc just as an > elaborate nonsequitur; I dearly love the film themes gathered on this disc > - for me, very moving and sensitive interpretations of some great tunes. Yeah. I stand by the general thrust of my criticism, but I've been convinced over the last couple of days that I ignored too many healthy trees while trying to get the forest condemned. Er, so to speak. Chris Hamilton - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:18:06 -0800 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: The big deal with _Naked City_ On Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:49:16 -0500 (EST) Christopher Hamilton wrote: > > > > On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > > > Slick? Do you mean that the music is rehearsed by skilled musicians > > before being delivered? That the recording is of good quality? That there > > are thoughts first, then music after (instead of the inverse)? What's > > wrong with that? Doesn't it apply to most of Zorn's production? Zorn is a > > perfectionist (even on his first records you could detect that nothing was > > left at random). Are you accusing him of a lack of sloppiness :-). > > I'm not entirely sure what makes it come off slick to me. It might be the > production (too much compression in the mix?), but I don't generally > have a problem with Zorn's production style. It might also be the fact > that the music is more thoroughly composed than is typical for the genres > being referenced. Whichever, it sounds less spontaneous and energetic > than the source material. > > It occurs to me as I'm typing this that, if the latter suggestion is > right, that's kinda interesting in itself, and I'll try listening to these > records with that in mind next time I put them on. > > > I am not too crazy either of the s/t NAKED CITY (and RADIO), but for > > different reasons. > > I'd be curious to know your reasons, if you'd like to share them. I doubt that I have any serious reasons. I consider it almost perfect under any angle I choose to look at it, but it leaves me almost cold. I have the same attitude with Masada (technically perfect, but does not move me at all). Maybe because it is so good and I find that suspicious :-). Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 20:01:39 EST From: chasinthetrane@juno.com (James T Graves) Subject: RE: Wynton/Blues >.he even played a silly pseudo-free jazz trumpet riff in his (seemingly malicious) >attempt to ridicle the tradition of players who don't "swing" or incorporate the >"blues". the interviewer neglected to ask him to define those terms. Well that's interesting. I remember reading an interview with Keith Jarrett in the New York Times Magazine where Keith challenged Wynton to a blues battle, claiming that "Wynton can't play the blues." Jamie - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:30:44 -0800 (PST) From: SUGAR in their vitamins? Subject: Re: Ascension or Descension? Ascenion, as mentioned by Patrick, is a free/improv duo. to my ears, their work is along the lines of Borbetomagus or Blowhole. the only caveat i can give is that while their brilliant moments shine, their less than stellar moments are equally as conspicuous. On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Patrick Carey wrote: > released several 7"s (all o/p), a couple LPs (on Dirter the "Live/Dead" LP on Dirter is worth examining. is this still in print? > and Fusetron - should still be around), and 2 CDs (a > single & a double), both on Shock, both still available. the double CD titled "Broadcast" is not to be passed up. this is a recording from a live broadcast event done by KFJC 89.7 FM ("somewhere in California") two years ago via ISDN from England. i finally managed to track a copy down--i understand it's a limited pressing of 500 copies--and relived the entire experience over and over again. this is the most focused performance i've heard yet. i am particularly struck by the way the pair clearly have a strong rapor while playing. i can't say enough good things about this set. hasta. Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:32:21 -0800 (PST) From: SUGAR in their vitamins? Subject: RE: Japan Overseas On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Patrick Carey wrote: > Hmmm ... that's strange. I've dealt with them numerous times, and I > receive items faster than I do from most mail order outlets Stateside > with no hassle. i must concur. my experience has been the same. i'm continually amazed at how fast stuff gets delivered all the way from Japan. hasta. Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 03:54:25 +0000 From: Dwight Haden Subject: RE: Japan Overseas (no music content) At 07:15 PM 11/17/97 +0000, you wrote: >Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 04:33:30 -0500 >From: pm.carey@utoronto.ca (Patrick Carey) >Subject: RE: Japan Overseas > >>Japan Overseas quoted me a price on a Painkiller disc, took my money, >>then, after 6 weeks, told me it was unavailable. I don't recommend >>that you deal with them, at least for items not in their normal catalog. >>They still have my money, BTW. > >Hmmm ... that's strange. I've dealt with them numerous times... > >>I've done some web searching recently and have found the following >>Painkiller discs listed at various European/USA mailorder services: > >And why are any of these mail order outlets better than JO? I don't know that they are better, except in terms of price and access- ability. But I do know that: a) I followed someone's advice and gave JO a try when looking for hard- to-find Zorn discs. b) I got screwed. Just passing this info along. Glad you had better luck with them. Dwight Haden === dhaden@worldnet.att.net - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:53:17 +1100 (EST) From: James Douglas Knox Subject: Re: Stalker (was: lustmord) On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Dave Trenkel wrote: (snip) > > > "Solaris" has one of the most effective and haunting soundtracks of any > film, and it sounds like a great deal of it is classic analog tape musique > concrete. Do you have any details on where one could actually get this? > I'm sure the EVA label in Japan released both the soundtracks for Solaris and Stalker, on separate discs in Japan. Once upon a time you could get them thru Japan O/S, but now...I'm not too sure. Cheers, Jim - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:01:31 +1100 (EST) From: James Douglas Knox Subject: RE: Bring Me The Head Of John Zorn! (just kidding) I've lost the posting, but an age back - with discussion tending towards what might be Zorn's legacy, and who might be his peers in some kinda musical pantheon - Zorn's name found itself in all kinda company; Zappa, and later, Bach, Beethoven, and similarly esteemed others. And someone (Chris, I'm sure it was you?) postulated - in jest - a day when a bust of Zorn's head might sit on every household piano... So; over the weekend, I'm thinking; and suddenly I gets the image of what these busts might look like. (Yeah, you already know what I'm thinking) Zorn's head, Grand-Guignol cover-graphic style - vacant eyed, jaw ajar, cranium cut-aways to reveal pieces of exposed brain. Sitting in a dinner plate. Hell; I'd buy one! Err; I dunno. It seemed funny at the time... - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 01:45:37 -0500 From: pm.carey@utoronto.ca (Patrick Carey) Subject: Re: Ascension or Descension? >>Descension consists of Ascension plus Simon Fell on double >>bass and Charles Wharf on alto & soprano sax & bass clarinet, >>and if you can't stand Ascension alone, I wouldn't recommend >>Descension ... ;-) They have one album, a lengthy disc on >>Shock from 1995. >If you love Ascension alone, this is ESSENTIAL. So true. I was simply emphasizing the fact that the Descension album is 10 times the lovely racket of anything Ascension has done. That's what the ;-) was for. - -Patrick - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 01:45:50 -0500 From: pm.carey@utoronto.ca (Patrick Carey) Subject: Re: Ascension or Descension? SUGAR in their vitamins? wrote: >Ascenion, as mentioned by Patrick, >is a free/improv duo. to my ears, >their work is along the lines >of Borbetomagus or Blowhole. I would agree, although w/o the reeds of course. Arguably, there's still a 'jazzy' sort of aesthetic going on though ... >the only caveat i can give is that >while their brilliant moments >shine, their less than stellar >moments are equally as conspicuous. I suppose that is true. It is quite obvious when things aren't quite all there between the two men. >the "Live/Dead" LP on Dirter >is worth examining. is this >still in print? I want to say it is, but I'm not sure. Upon looking in the latest RRR catalog I have I see that Ron no longer has it listed. Forced Exposure may still have some though (?) >the double CD titled "Broadcast" >is not to be passed up. this >is a recording from a live >broadcast event done by >KFJC 89.7 FM ("somewhere in >California") two years ago >via ISDN from England. i finally >managed to track a copy down--i >understand it's a limited >pressing of 500 copies--and >relived the entire experience >over and over again. this is the >most focused performance i've >heard yet. i am particularly >struck by the way the pair >clearly have a strong rapor >while playing. i can't >say enough good things about >this set. Yes, it is limited to 500, something I should have mentioned. I managed to track this down soon after it came out and I'm glad, since it seems to have become hard to come by. I know Jimmy at FE told me that Stefan (for whatever reason) never sent him any of these, but they do have the first Ascension disc, the Descension CD, and the Fusetron LP. Best bet might actually be to contact Shock (Stefan) directly and hope for a response (fax: +44 (0)181 559 3733). I wholeheartedly agree regarding how 'focused' this performance seems. Great stuff!! - -Patrick - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #165 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date.