From: Zorn List Digest Sent: Thursday, November 20, 1997 10:33 PM To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #172 Zorn List Digest Thursday, November 20 1997 Volume 02 : Number 172 In this issue: - Re: Milo Fine/Fred Frith (was Borbetomagus ...) Re: Sonny Sharrock !!!space!!! Re: Masada box sets Re: Masada box sets Re: Milo Fine/Fred Frith (was Borbetomagus ...) Re: Mingus Re: Mingus Re: The big deal with _Naked City_ Re: The big deal with slick, overproduced _Naked City_ Re: The big deal with slick, overproduced _Naked City_ Bryars, Nyman et al Re: Milo Fine Re: Milo Fine/Fred Frith (was Borbetomagus ...) Re: Masada box sets Re: Bryars & Nyman & Baron... Re: Mingus Re: J.T. Lewis, Stomu Takeishi Re: Masada box Re: Wynton does Ornette (and not very well) (was: Zorn's etc) Re: Leng T'Che (graphics) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:27:33 -0500 From: ôô Subject: Re: Milo Fine/Fred Frith (was Borbetomagus ...) Nathan M Earixson wrote: Concerning the Naked CityThread, where Someone made a statement about > Fred Frith Playing bass; In my opinion, Fred Frith's Bass playing > epitomizes the 'too slick' argument about Naked City. He's obviously > very technically proficient, but something seems missing, compared to how > he plays guitar. I also found this true on the > French/Frith/Kaiser/Thompson album, where he was the bass Player. What > gives? Why would you recruit Fred Frith to play Bass? Does he > volunteer? I can think of plenty of Bass Players I would have rather > heard in either of these groups. Am I just talking out my ass here? Fred does have a definite personal style on the bass, but you wont hear much of it on Naked City. I'd reccomend the Art Bears LP's or The Aqsak Maboul disk and of couse his Ralph Records/ESD disks, all of which show him to have a pretty unique and wonderful talent for bass. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:33:52 -0500 From: ôô Subject: Re: Sonny Sharrock KEVIN NEALES wrote: > > I recently saw a used C.D. by Bill Cosby and Friends(forgot the name of > it but it was from 1990) and was surprised to see Sonny Sharrock played > on one song. I didn't buy it because I thought it would be pretty lame. > Has anyone heard this? Also I really like the music Sonny Sharrock did > for the Space Ghost Coast to Coast show. Is this available on C.D.?? The Cosby disc is Called "Where you Lay Your Head" recorded in 87 or 88 and released in 90, and Sonny plays on one tune, "Why is it I can never find anything in the closet" with Don Pullen, Mark Egan and Jack Dejohnette. The tune and the CD are OK, nothing special, but worth hearing. Though I understand that the outtakes of this recording session were more interesting than the CD. Sonny was an old friend of Cosby's from his days with Cannonball Adderly, and Sonny appeared quite regularly at Cosby's Playboy Jazz Festival performances. The Space Ghost CD is $7 from the Cartoon Network, mailorder only. If you like the Space Ghost stuff, and you havn't already, check out Sonny's 'Seize The Rainbow" CD. - -- Peels foe, not a set animal,laminates a tone of sleep Peter Blegvad - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:36:54 -0500 From: Bob Kowalski Subject: !!!space!!! YIPES Masada box sets - 2 of 'em in the next 1 1/2 years? All these CDs ! I've Masada 1-4 & 6 right now (plus about 35 other Zorn / Naked City / ...et al CDs) - should I stop buying them (how is # 8?) and wait? I've still got a few hundred vinyl lps, a small army of tapes kicking about, and lots of other artists I enjoy listening too and collecting (beyond Zorn and Nyman, both of whom stand out in my record collection along with Tom Waits as "wall-of-cds" by themselves.) My question... where is one to put it all? Do y'all live in mansions? I have a huge apartment and still my living room looks like a cramped record store. Not a serious problem in scheme of life, but golly... Bob @ Somerville -=dot=- MA - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:05:15 +0100 From: Stephane Vuilleumier Subject: Re: Masada box sets How sure are you that Masada _box sets_ will be cheaper? At least here in Europe (say Switzerland), the 7 CD Parachute set, including a few short-length CDs which could have been squeezed into less, cost just as much as 7 single CDs, ie (let's US list-readers off) 140 USD. I read somewhere recently, I think it might have been in the liner notes to that set, or maybe on this list, that JZ has a weakness for boxed sets. but should we be paying so much for Mr. Z's obsessions? At least his so-called "sense of humour" is free... Stephane At 15:01 20.11.97 +0100, Frankco (flamerik@best.ms.philips.com) wrote: (snip) >Furthermore, the 12 CD set will probably be much cheaper than 12 separate >albums. Being a Mr. Bungle fan, I hope one of the 'alternative' Masada's will >feature Trevor Dunn on the bass (the West Coast Masada as it has existed for >some time). Does anyone know in what line-ups Masada has performed? > >> Subject: Masada >> > Is there any truth to the rumor that the 6 Japanese Masada releases will >> > be re-released as a set? Thanks. Matt >> > >> > This year Tzadik plans to release a 12 cd set of Masada recordings. 10 >> > from DIW and 2 of Masada out takes. In '98 Tzadik will release another >> > 12 cd set of Masada recordings comprised of the following: 4 Live in NYC, > > 3 Live in Asia, 3 Live in Europe and 2 of alternative Masada's. JZ - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 02:25:26 +1100 From: "Julian" Subject: Re: Masada box sets > How sure are you that Masada _box sets_ will be cheaper? > At least here in Europe (say Switzerland), the 7 CD Parachute set, > including a few short-length CDs which could have been squeezed into less, > cost just as much as 7 single CDs, ie (let's US list-readers off) 140 USD. > > I read somewhere recently, I think it might have been in the liner > notes to that set, or maybe on this list, that JZ has a weakness for > boxed sets. > > but > > should we be paying so much for Mr. Z's obsessions? Hmm the way I saw it was that all 7 are unavailable elsewhere. In Australia, I paid $34 for Grand Guignol because of such an unavailability. $34 x 7 = $238, and the box here was $170, so a reasonable deal in my opinion. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:26:11 -0600 From: jihad7@juno.com (Nathan M Earixson) Subject: Re: Milo Fine/Fred Frith (was Borbetomagus ...) On Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:27:33 -0500 ôô writes: > >Fred does have a definite personal style on the bass, but you wont >hear >much of it on Naked City. I'd reccomend the Art Bears LP's or The >Aqsak >Maboul disk and of couse his Ralph Records/ESD disks, all of which >show >him to have a pretty unique and wonderful talent for bass. Hmmmm. I wasn't aware that he played Bass on any of those recordings, and I have it on pretty sporadic authority that he didn't. The upshot is that it really wouldn't hurt for me to listen to all of these again anyways, eh? Thanks. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:16:13 EST From: chasinthetrane@juno.com (James T Graves) Subject: Re: Mingus >Charles Mingus was mentioned a while back when discussing the mixing of >different styles. Could anyone point me towards some of his works which >display this? You might want to check out New Tijuana Moods, an heavily latin influenced album that comprises jazz, latin and free elements. Blues & Roots and Mingus/Oh Yeah are both definitely jazz, but they also draw heavily from blues and gospel. I'm not all that familiar with Mingus, so I could be missing some stuff here. Jamie - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:48:14 -0800 From: "Schwitterz" Subject: Re: Mingus >You might want to check out New Tijuana Moods, an heavily latin >influenced album that comprises jazz, latin and free elements. Blues & >Roots and Mingus/Oh Yeah are both definitely jazz, but they also draw >heavily from blues and gospel. I'm not all that familiar with Mingus, so >I could be missing some stuff here. >Jamie Don't miss LIVE AT ANTIBES and MINGUS IN EUROPE (with Dolphy). s~Z - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:54:29 -0500 (EST) From: ia zha nah er vesen Subject: Re: The big deal with _Naked City_ > > I'd call 'Nani Nani' or 'Zohar' a joke; > > This is another topic, but I actually think _Zohar_ is quite moving. The > submersion of the somber music under all that "surface noise" suggests a > kind of melancholy yearning for the unattainable: Jewish traditions as > they stood a century ago, the sound of old recordings as they were at the > time, and maybe other things by extension (God, even?). Sure, it probably > didn't take that long to come up with the music, but it's a simple, > effective idea. I've always had two minds about this one; one of them definitely agrees with you. - -jascha - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:13:28 -0500 (EST) From: ia zha nah er vesen Subject: Re: The big deal with slick, overproduced _Naked City_ This brings to mind a quote i heard attributed to Thurston Moore to the effect that 'yeah, torture garden is cool, but it's a bit accademic'. 'Whoa...', thought i, 'of all the words to attatch to TG, accademic is not one that springs to mind.' But i can see what he meant, and it's an interesting point. - -jascha - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:18:49 -0800 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: The big deal with slick, overproduced _Naked City_ On Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:13:28 -0500 (EST) ia zha nah er vesen wrote: > > > This brings to mind a quote i heard attributed to Thurston Moore to the > effect that 'yeah, torture garden is cool, but it's a bit accademic'. > > 'Whoa...', thought i, 'of all the words to attatch to TG, accademic is not > one that springs to mind.' But i can see what he meant, and it's an > interesting point. I guess you assume that he was serious when he said that... and not just trying to act like the coolest dude on earth who has seen it all (attitude that he seems to enjoy a lot (not sure if it is conscious or not)). Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:45:43 -0700 From: dennis summers Subject: Bryars, Nyman et al I'll come out of lurking to talk about this one. Nyman I like well enough, but I usually spend my money elsewhere, having limited funds. Bryars, I have completely fallen in love with over the last 6 months. The first disk I got was the Blood of Jesus (title?) one, because of the Tom Waits connection. (When will Waits come out with another disk, he's like the anti-Zorn when it comes to output). I would not reccommend it to anyone for that reason. However, from the first listening I was completely mesmerized. On the one hand it seems to fall into that whole minimalist tradition, on the other hand (and I say this not as a slam, as I'm very fond of people like Reich) it has soul, real soul, which I often find missing from others, even those I like. I've also completely loved the Sinking of the Titanic, for similar reasons. I recently picked up the disk that has the Balenescu (sp?) Quartet on it, don't recall the title, enjoyed it, but haven't formed a firm opinion yet. As soon as I have more cash I will be trying to get all the rest of his discs. Right now I'm buying the GRP/Impulse reissues on 180 gram vinyl of John Coltrane. I love that vinyl can't get enough of it.... yours in zornocity --ds ***Quantum Dance Works*** ****http://ic.net/~denniss**** - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:17:36 +0000 From: "Charles Gillett" Subject: Re: Milo Fine On Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:04:08 -0400, Adam Good wrote: > I saw a trio of his at the west bank school of music. this was seven > years ago and definately my first exposure to free-improv. This makes me realize that I don't know what my first exposure to free improv was. Speaking of first exposure, though: in a "jazz appreciation" class I took at the UofMN a couple years ago, we watched a video produced by the music dept. some 20 years ago or so in which Milo Fine was given the task of explaining free jazz. As he honked and squealed on his clarinet and rummaged around inside his piano, my classmates all chuckled and giggled. "How silly those free jazzers are!" was the prevailing mood of the room, an attitude fostered by our professor--a Wyntonite who described a free-improv gig he went to in the most absurd ways ("...and then one of them took off his clothes and started dancing around chanting "save the whales, save the whales" and everyone around me was digging it"). > any chance that they're playing a gig on thanskgiving? No, but close--they'll be playing on the 5th of December. If you can't stick around that long, the day after Thanksgiving Souls of Kilimanjaro (featuring Anthony Cox on bass) will be playing at the Cedar Cultural Center, and the day after that Andrew Cyrille will be playing at the Cultural Center of Minnesota. - -- Charles - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:40:13 -0700 From: john shiurba Subject: Re: Milo Fine/Fred Frith (was Borbetomagus ...) nathan: > Art Bears LP's or The > >Aqsak > >Maboul disk and of couse his Ralph Records/ESD disks, all of which > >show > >him to have a pretty unique and wonderful talent for bass. > > > Hmmmm. I wasn't aware that he played Bass on any of those recordings, > and I have it on pretty sporadic authority that he didn't. on the sporadic authority of the credits on the sleeves, he does indeed play bass on all of these records, and as was suggested quite uniquely. - -- shiurba@sfo.com http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:05:26 -0500 From: Zachary Subject: Re: Masada box sets At 03:01 PM 11/20/97 +0100, flamerik@best.ms.philips.com wrote: >Maybe Zorn can also release a 12 CD Naked City box set, covering the complete >works of Krzystof Komeda, Bernard Herrmann, and Napalm Death. Or maybe even that 100-CD Zorn/Eye live box set. - -Zachary - - _________________________ )) Zachary (( [|**| zachary@netwalk.com |**|] |__| "Coffee Cures Everything" |__| - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:47:56 -0600 From: "Glenn Astarita" Subject: Re: Bryars & Nyman & Baron... - ---------- >> > (ps : new Joey Baron CD is a very good time...the stellar performances are a > given - these guys are masters! Even my wife, who feel asleep at the last > couple of Frisell shows, loves it!) > > Bob @ Somerville -=dot=- MA > I can't find this anywhere ! CDNOW has it in backordered status, Tower )New Orleans) doesn't have it and none of the Internet CD sites show it in stock !!??? > - > glenn - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:06:49 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: Mingus On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Julian wrote: > Charles Mingus was mentioned a while back when discussing the mixing of > different styles. Could anyone point me towards some of his works which > display this? The one I had in mind when I mentioned him was "Cumbia and Jazz Fusion" off the album of the same title. Not his best work, but pretty good and the most extreme example of this I know in his work. Chris Hamilton - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:04:44 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: J.T. Lewis, Stomu Takeishi On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Jeff Spirer wrote: > I was really impressed by J. T. Lewis' drumming on Threadgill's most > recent, Yeah, he's really killing on this. And Stomu Takeishi has the most original electric bass conception I've heard in quite a while. Anyone know what else he's done? and maybe I have been living in a Skinner box, but the only other > recordings with Lewis that I am aware of are an early Material record and a > Donna Summer CD from around 1990. Just wondering what he has done in > between, before, after... He drums on Kip Hanrahan's 1992 _Exotica_, where he's fine but doesn't get the chance to really shine. Penguin also lists him on David Murray's _Shakill's II_ and Don Pullen's _Sacred Common Ground_, neither of which I've heard. So I guess he was hanging out with the late Don Pullen (aho's on all of these) a lot. I feel like I've heard him somewhere else, but can't recall where. Chris Hamilton - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:11:38 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: Masada box On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Dwight Haden wrote: > > 10/16/97 > > Dan Sanders > > Subject: Masada > > Re: Masada Will any of the boxed set CD's including "10 from DIW and 2 > > of Masada outtakes" be available individually, for those of us that already > > have a fair number of them? > > > > I don't know yet. JZ I'm not gonna get all self-righteous about this until the box is out and Tzadik confirms that the outtakes won't be released separately, but this seems like a really bad idea. It's hard to imagine anyone but Masada completists plumping for a 12-disc set, but those people already own 2/3 of this material! Chris Hamilton - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:24:47 +1100 (EST) From: James Douglas Knox Subject: Re: Wynton does Ornette (and not very well) (was: Zorn's etc) Julian wrote: > > There was a horrible (leastways, for me) moment in the closing of Spike > > Lee's Mo' Better Blues with the wretched Wynton turning in a total > > travesty of Lonely Woman. And I am not so enamoured of the NC version, > > but > > this was truly *VOM* inspiring; shorn of its plaintive keening, and all > > those perfect right-wrong notes. No melancholy, no beauty - something so > > meretriciously bland it could only be the work of that insensate zombie: > > Wynton Marsalis. > > > Um um um I just looked at the info they've got at CDnow and Wynton > apparently has nothing to do with the soundtrack. Saxes are by Branford > Marsalis, trumpet by Terence Blanchard. So, maybe a bit too emotive, yes. > Lord help me; I'm just a big, dum Aussie - and not the first time my fingers move faster than my brain in a posting to the list. (Now; what was that about *arrogant*, *ignorant*, *xenophobic*, *idiot*?) :-) - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:33:11 +1100 (EST) From: James Douglas Knox Subject: Re: Leng T'Che (graphics) On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Petsitter wrote: > > Julian wrote: > > > > > > > I've often wondered about the > > story behind the photo on 'Buried Secrets' (a pair of cuffed hands > > lifting a skull out of the soil); it's a troubling, formally beautiful > > image that implies an interesting narrative. > > More errors about this - in my posting of yesterday: its the execution of a Chinese guy for the assasination of Prince Ao-Han-Ouan. Apparently, his sentence was commuted (!) from burning alive, which the Emperor considered too cruel (!). The curious thing is this: they dosed the poor guy with opium while they're cutting alla bits off him - presumably in order that he live through more of it. Hence: the beatific look on his face in some of the photos - he must've been flying, what with all that adrenalin and endorphins pumping round his system. Leng-Tch'e (cutting into pieces, or Hundred Pieces) is the name of this punishment. Photos date from 1905. More details in George Bataille's "Tears of Eros" (City Lights Books). - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #172 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. 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