From: zorn-list-owner@xmission.com To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com Subject: zorn-list Digest V2 #32 Reply-To: zorn-list@xmission.com Errors-To: zorn-list-owner@xmission.com Precedence: zorn-list Digest Wednesday, 20 November 1996 Volume 02 : Number 032 In this issue: br0tzmann/lasswell lp Re: br0tzmann/lasswell lp Croquet Drum'n'bass more Henry Kaiser jungle Re: br0tzmann/lasswell lp Re: Drum'n'bass Re: Trespass 100 CD box set thang H30 Re: Joey Baron's industrial earplugs. Re: Trespass Re: Drum'n'bass Masada 7 Re: Masada 7 Re: Masada 7 Re: 100 CD box set thang Re: Jungle (was Re: ...Bailey's jungle record) Re: Drum'n'bass See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the zorn-list or zorn-list-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: N Vassiliou Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:57:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: br0tzmann/lasswell lp I recently came across a Peter Br0tzmann/Bill Lasswell collaboration LP, probably titled "Low Life". Since it was rather expensive and I am not really into this kind of this stuff, especially when not played by a relatively large band (such as Last Exit) I would appreciate any opinions from anyone who has listened to it. Thanks Nick Vassiliou ------------------------------ From: Matthew C Weiner Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:44:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: br0tzmann/lasswell lp My roommate just got this, and I think it'a absolutely great. Brotzmann plays bass sax only; there are some overdubs. It is screamingly intense music w/Laswell getting into some extended technique/feedback (I think; only luistened to it once); I'd say it's simlar t Last Exit in intensity but clearer-textured (a description, not an evaluation). You might appreciate that, given what you say about a relatively large band (though I'm not sure relative to what). I'm not sure what you mean by this kind of stuff. If you don't like Last Exit, you might want to post where you've seen it and post yourself there to watch the scramble. Matt On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, N Vassiliou wrote: > I recently came across a Peter Br0tzmann/Bill Lasswell collaboration LP, > probably titled "Low Life". Since it was rather expensive and I am not > really into this kind of this stuff, especially when not played by a > relatively large band (such as Last Exit) I would appreciate > any opinions from anyone who has listened to it. > > Thanks > > Nick Vassiliou > > ------------------------------ From: Nathaniel Dorward Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 16:11:20 -0400 (AST) Subject: Croquet Recently got Bruce Andrews's book of poems/performance pieces, _Ex Why Zee_ (from Roof/The Segue Foundation), & see that one text there was written for Zorn's "Croquet". Has this been/will this be released as a recording? I also note Lyn Hejinian supplied the text for "Que Tran"; same questions apply. --N * Nate Dorward (ndorward@is2.dal.ca) website: http://is2.dal.ca/~ndorward/ * ...Cambridge, where chthonic severance dictates endless toil. --Peter Riley, _Alstonefield_ ------------------------------ From: Matthew C Weiner Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:56:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Drum'n'bass On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Frankco Lamerikx wrote: > Jungle, or drum 'n bass as its favored > name is here in Europe, takes a somewhat > awkward position within the dance world: > it is the first dance music that you > cannot actually dance to. Odd--I have danced to it. Perhaps it depends on the style of drum'n'bass. > This observation > seems to contrast with the statement > that drum 'n bass serves as little more > than background. However, it can serve > as background of course without having to be dance music. > Drum 'n bass is seen by some as an extension > of jazz rather than of dance music. > It borrows its rhythmic approach from dance > (I think it is based on an extension > of break beats first advocated by the likes > of The Prodigy some years ago). I'm told that several drum'n'bass programmers cite Shannon Jackson as an influence. (Surprise! We're back on topic.) Certainly what I've heard--and I'm by no means an expert-- seems pretty complex rhythmically. > However, the feel to some of the most > appreciated drum 'n bass releases is > distinctly jazzy. There is also a level of > complexity involved that is unheard > of since the days of disco (at least > within the dance world). Try to listen to > a Squarepusher record and tell me that is > not difficult music. In fact, I dare > say, it is true avant-garde. This, of course, > does not hold true for the > majority of drum 'n bass releases, which can > be seen as mere bandwagon jumping. I agree about the music being avant-garde. I don't think it's smart to dismiss the music after just a little exposure; especially not on a newsgroup where "How do I coax newbies into the music I like?" is a constant topic. FWIW, the Wire says that the drm'n'bass on the Bailey album is pretty generic. Also, the much-hyped Goldie album Timeless (got reviewed in Time! I have a theory about that but it's off-topic) may be an easy way into drum'n'bass--it has vocals and riffs and other things that the unconverted might dig. Plus, it's good. Matt ------------------------------ From: CuneiWay@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 15:38:45 -0500 Subject: more Henry Kaiser From: Steve Smith wrote: >And in continuing to do penance to Cuneiform, I'd also like to mention one more recent Kaiser disc worth checking out. THE SIAMESE STEPBROTHERS >(Cuneiform Rune 72, 1995) is quite the interesting record... it pairs Henry with Bruce Anderson (whom I believe is formerly of MX-80 Sound... >anyone care to confirm?), early Grateful Dead keyboardist Tom Constanten, drummer Lukas Ligeti (son of the famous Hungarian composer I think) >and bassist Dale Sophiea. BOTH Dale & Bruce are in MX-80, which is still in existence. And yes, Lukas is the son of Georgy Ligetti. He also drummed in a Austrian band called Kombinat M that had obvious influences from the "Downtown scene" until that band died around '93. >Henry also has a new band with last of the Zappa Band stunt guitarists Mike >Kenneally, but I haven't heard it and can't remember the details. That band is called "The Mistakes", & they have one album out on Immune. The lineup is Henry & Mike + bassist Andy West (ex Dregs) & drummer Prairie Prince (ex Tubes). It sounds like they are all having a lot of fun on it. Lastly, a somewhat JZ related post - we will be releasing, in January '97, a live 'n' studio CD called "Every Screaming Ear" by NYC's Doctor Nerve [who's music definitely fits into the realm of that covered by this list] which will be the final CD by Nerve that features trumpeter David Douglas [Masada], who had been a member of Nerve since around 1984 & only left in the last 18 months when his schedule got too busy to remain with them. Steve Feigenbaum ------------------------------ From: Harry Godfrey Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 21:27:08 +0000 Subject: jungle Frankco and anyone else who might be interested: some might indeed think that jungle/drum n bass is undanceable, judging on audio experiences...but certain nights at venues here in Britain which showcase the talents of such stars as Goldie (Metalheadz) or LTJ Bukem (Speed) have been going for a long time now and are getting more popular than one could imagine. The new Metalheadz night at the Leisure Lounge in London began a few weeks ago, and if anybody WASN'T dancing, it's because they couldn't move due to the jam-packed state of affairs. Extremely hot and sweaty. People definitely dance to jungle. Alex ------------------------------ From: Jeff Spirer Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:49:14 -0800 Subject: Re: br0tzmann/lasswell lp At 06:57 PM 11/20/96 +0000, N Vassiliou wrote: >I recently came across a Peter Br0tzmann/Bill Lasswell collaboration LP, >probably titled "Low Life". Since it was rather expensive and I am not THIS SHOULD NOT BE "RATHER EXPENSIVE". It has been sold as a cut-out in some places. I realize that M Vassiliou is in England, but I have seen new copies for $10US and used ones for about $6US. It's a great recording, but do not spend a lot of money on it. Jeff Spirer http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/ Axiom Records/Material Communications ------------------------------ From: Jeff Spirer Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:49:15 -0800 Subject: Re: Drum'n'bass At 02:56 PM 11/20/96 -0500, Matthew C Weiner wrote: >I agree about the music being avant-garde. I don't think >it's smart to dismiss the music after just a little >exposure; especially not on a newsgroup where "How do >I coax newbies into the music I like?" is a constant >topic. Great point. The criticisms of drum 'n' bass that I have been reading here are very similar to the accusations thrown at Zorn about use of rock in jazz. Open those closed minds, and if you don't like it, wait a few years instead of just saying it's not worthwhile. Jeff Spirer http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/ Axiom Records/Material Communications ------------------------------ From: Jeff Spirer Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:49:16 -0800 Subject: Re: Trespass At 04:41 PM 11/19/96 +1100, James Douglas Knox wrote: >18 Nov 1996 07:37:01 -0800, Jeff Spirer writes: >>At 05:24 PM 11/18/96 +1100, James Douglas Knox wrote: >>>Oh, unnh, this one is a bit more embarassing; leastways for me. Mr Roussel >>>kindly thanks me in the new zorn discography for mailing re: Filmworks 2 >>>(Zorn had been commissioned to do the score, but those inexorable >>>MCA studio execs baulked, and got Ry Cooder to come up with his own >>>perfectly competent but somewhat lesser alternative). >> >>"Lesser" in what sense? >> >>Or are we only allowed to pray to one god here? > >Well, unnh, I'm less interested in "prayer" than in music (perhaps >you made a wrong choice of vocation). While Cooder and Zorn both recorded >effective scores for the film (perhaps), Zorn's piece is - to me at least >- far more interesting than Cooder's as a piece of music per se. Like most >of Zorn's work - and almost none of Cooder's - there's a formal experiment >happening here. Zorn uses those hillbilly strings to reference Hill's >"Deliverance", and evoke the white trash millieu of "Trespass"'s protagonists. >He uses the world music elements to describe that 'Heart of Darkness' >that is the urban american ghetto. I could go on. > >Ultimately; my understanding of Cooder's brief is that he was asked to >record a "lesser" (i.e "watered-down") version of Zorn's score. And here is where this all starts to break down. See, this is a rumor. There are other reasons why this could have happened, and unless someone can get Walter Hill online, there is no reason to believe that this is one. FWIW, Ry Cooder has scored almost all of Walter Hill's movies after The Warriors. It is possible that Hill got funding for the movie to make what the studio thought was a "typical" Walter Hill movie and that they thought that included a Ry Cooder soundtrack. It is possible that ..... And I am finding a high degree of musical intolerance popping up on this list. Cooder's soundtrack is very highly regarded by fans of "ambient" music, for lack of a better word. It is DIFFERENT. And there is a big difference between "different" and "lesser", or "different" and "interesting." Sometimes it sounds like dittoheads are talking about music here, which is a little scarey thinking back to how hard it was for Zorn to get through some of the "different" barriers. Jeff Spirer http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/ Axiom Records/Material Communications ------------------------------ From: "Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n" Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 16:58:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: 100 CD box set thang Just out of curiosity: how many copies of this monstrosity is this label going to print? Not that i'm anxious to buy one, but it's the sort of trivia i'd like to know. Maybe they're only going to print one copy and send it out into space for other life forms to uncover. After all, if NASA is going to send out records of Glen Gould and whale calls as representative (somehow) of humanity, then we should update our efforts with 100 CDs of Zorn/Eye improvs, which seem to catch something of the flavour of what it is to live on the planet earth (sometimes). - -jascha ------------------------------ From: Seth Gordon Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:04:58 -0500 Subject: H30 I recently picked up my first album by the Hafler Trio (or H30, as I'm told the fans call them). I'm a big fan of director Peter Greenaway and saw their "collaborative" album, so I couldn't resist. Really liked it alot. Real noisy and monotonous, but with an odd sense of humor. (I suppose one could describe Peter G's films the same way, though.) Does anyone have any recommendations where to go with them? What's the best stuff to start with? ------------------------------ From: DANIEL BITTON Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:27:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Joey Baron's industrial earplugs. When you fuck up your ears, they get very sensitive, also drums are jsut always too fucking loud if your sitting at them for two hours even if it sounds like nothing from the audience. On 20 Nov 1996, GCURRAN.US.ORACLE.COM wrote: > I had pretty much the same reaction, "huh??" Maybe it is just a reflexive > response on Joey's part as I gather, from some of the reports I have read, > that Masada regularly plays much larger rooms than they played in Boston. In > fact, when Cohen's amp died, during the second set, I had no trouble hearing > him from the next to last row in the room. This was one of the quietest jazz > shows I have heard in quite some time. > > Maybe Joey played in too many heavy metal bands in his younger days? > > ------------------------------ From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:41:09 -0800 Subject: Re: Trespass On Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:49:16 -0800 Jeff Spirer wrote: > > At 04:41 PM 11/19/96 +1100, James Douglas Knox wrote: > >18 Nov 1996 07:37:01 -0800, Jeff Spirer writes: > >>At 05:24 PM 11/18/96 +1100, James Douglas Knox wrote: > >>>Oh, unnh, this one is a bit more embarassing; leastways for me. Mr Roussel > >>>kindly thanks me in the new zorn discography for mailing re: Filmworks 2 > >>>(Zorn had been commissioned to do the score, but those inexorable > >>>MCA studio execs baulked, and got Ry Cooder to come up with his own > >>>perfectly competent but somewhat lesser alternative). > >> > >>"Lesser" in what sense? > >> > >>Or are we only allowed to pray to one god here? > > > >Well, unnh, I'm less interested in "prayer" than in music (perhaps > >you made a wrong choice of vocation). While Cooder and Zorn both recorded > >effective scores for the film (perhaps), Zorn's piece is - to me at least > >- far more interesting than Cooder's as a piece of music per se. Like most > >of Zorn's work - and almost none of Cooder's - there's a formal experiment > >happening here. Zorn uses those hillbilly strings to reference Hill's > >"Deliverance", and evoke the white trash millieu of "Trespass"'s protagonists. > >He uses the world music elements to describe that 'Heart of Darkness' > >that is the urban american ghetto. I could go on. > > > >Ultimately; my understanding of Cooder's brief is that he was asked to > >record a "lesser" (i.e "watered-down") version of Zorn's score. > > And here is where this all starts to break down. See, this is a rumor. > There are other reasons why this could have happened, and unless someone can > get Walter Hill online, there is no reason to believe that this is one. > > FWIW, Ry Cooder has scored almost all of Walter Hill's movies after The > Warriors. It is possible that Hill got funding for the movie to make what > the studio thought was a "typical" Walter Hill movie and that they thought > that included a Ry Cooder soundtrack. It is possible that ..... > > And I am finding a high degree of musical intolerance popping up on this > list. Cooder's soundtrack is very highly regarded by fans of "ambient" > music, for lack of a better word. It is DIFFERENT. And there is a big > difference between "different" and "lesser", or "different" and > "interesting." Sometimes it sounds like dittoheads are talking about music > here, which is a little scarey thinking back to how hard it was for Zorn to > get through some of the "different" barriers. Come on Jeff, expressing some opinions about an artist should be still allowed (even about sacred cows :-). Not making a god of every musician on earth should still be accepted. At the same time, never expressing any negative opinion about any musician should also be suspect (sign of hyprocrisy or lack of taste?), don't you think so (beside, of course, the easy and usual targets)? I am personally tired of the wishy-washy comments that more than often hide a total lack of interest for an artist/music, but refuse to acknowledge it (by saying "It's bad", etc). In this kind of situations, I find a statement such as "This sucks", quite refreshing :-). There are more scary things in the world (look at Zaire, for example). Also, I have seen very little criticism of other artists on this list (which indicates a significant difference in threshold between you and me :-). Patrice. ------------------------------ From: Steve Smith Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 19:00:26 -0800 Subject: Re: Drum'n'bass Jeff Spirer wrote: > Open those closed minds, and if you don't like it, wait a few years instead > of just saying it's not worthwhile. You wound me, sir! :-) If there is one accusation that cannot be levelled at me, it is closed-mindedness! I don't plan to declare jungle a closed book (THE JUNGLE BOOK?) anytime soon. I'm simply disappointed that nothing I've tried so far has been especially impressive, which is why I wrote to Frankco privately to thank him for his reply and his recommendations. Maybe it's just a matter of taste... when I followed JZ's pointers to the Boredoms, Napalm Death and Carcass my response was immediate and overwhelmingly positive. Yours in the spirit of positive debate! Steve Smith ssmith@kochint.com ------------------------------ From: Mark Corroto Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:12:49 -0500 Subject: Masada 7 News: I am looking ar Masada Zavin (7 ) DIW -915 tracks: Shevet Hath-Arob Mahshaw Shamor Bacharach Otoit Nevuah Kedem Zemer Evel tekufah also coming: David Ware Godspeilized Dougie Brown One Way Elevator w/John Medeski & Fred Hopkins Blood Ulmer Plays the music of ornette Coleman Greg Cohen Way Low Altered States w/Ned Rothenberg I'm excited ------------------------------ From: JonAbbey@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:49:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Masada 7 In a message dated 11/20/96 6:17:31 PM, mcorroto@alumni.ysu.edu (Mark Corroto) wrote: >also coming >David Ware Godspeilized >Dougie Brown One Way Elevator w/John Medeski & Fred Hopkins >Blood Ulmer Plays the music of ornette Coleman >Greg Cohen Way Low >Altered States w/Ned Rothenberg When? On DIW? Any more info here? This is a very intriguing set of titles. Jon ------------------------------ From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 16:10:23 -0800 Subject: Re: Masada 7 On Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:12:49 -0500 Mark Corroto wrote: > > News: I am looking ar Masada Zavin (7 ) ^^^^^ or ZAYIN? > DIW -915 > > tracks: Shevet > Hath-Arob > Mahshaw > Shamor > Bacharach > Otoit > Nevuah > Kedem > Zemer > Evel > tekufah Any recording info? > also coming: > David Ware Godspeilized > Dougie Brown One Way Elevator w/John Medeski & Fred Hopkins ^^^^^ I guess you mean Bowne. > Blood Ulmer Plays the music of ornette Coleman > Greg Cohen Way Low > Altered States w/Ned Rothenberg ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This one is called CAFE 9.15. and is on the label Phenotype (which is owned by DIW). > I'm excited So am I :-) Thanks for sharing your excitement, Patrice. ------------------------------ From: Barry Gilbert Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:25:43 -0700 Subject: Re: 100 CD box set thang At 04:58 PM 11/20/96 -0500, you wrote: > >Just out of curiosity: how many copies of this monstrosity is this label >going to print? 1000 copies only. Barry Gilbert Boulder, Colorado ------------------------------ From: Christopher Hamilton Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 19:27:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Jungle (was Re: ...Bailey's jungle record) On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Steve Smith wrote: > unfulfilling. The music serves as little more than background, even > with its extremely clever manipulation of rapid pulse. Photek seemed Others are doing a better job than I could in responding to most of the comments raised by Steve in his post, but I want to make one point that hasn't been raised yet: This music is LOUD. If it's only serving as background, then the volume knob is probably turned too far down. I suspect that this is one reason that drum-n-bass always works better for me one the dancefloor, but even on a home stereo, the breakbeats hit with a force that at its best is intensely physical, and very much in the spirit, if not the tradition, of Napalm Death, Painkiller, and _Torture Garden_. I haven't heard any of the releases Steve mentions yet, although I'll certainly snap up the Bailey album as soon as I get, but you might try turning up the volume if you're not "getting it". I don't think that this is all that drum-n-bass has going for it, but it's an important part of the aesthetic (at least for me). If you're not getting this effect at home, you might also consider checking out a club set by a good DJ. Chris Chris Hamilton Dept. of Philosophy University of Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA USA ------------------------------ From: Jeff Spirer Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:12:25 -0800 Subject: Re: Drum'n'bass At 07:00 PM 11/20/96 -0800, Steve Smith wrote: > >I don't plan to declare jungle a closed book (THE JUNGLE BOOK?) >anytime soon. I'm simply disappointed that nothing I've tried so >far has been especially impressive, which is why I wrote to Frankco >privately to thank him for his reply and his recommendations. >Maybe it's just a matter of taste... when I followed JZ's pointers >to the Boredoms, Napalm Death and Carcass my response was immediate >and overwhelmingly positive. In the spirit of positivity that Steve asked for, I would recommend the CD _Tetragrammaton: Submerge_, which has Graham Haynes playing horn with a drum 'n' bass rhythm track that would probably be a better place to start than other dnb recordings. This CD is unavailable right now outside of NYC (in NYC, Downtown Music Gallery has it and will mail order), but it should be in distribution in the next few weeks through Caroline. A lot of people also recommend Squarepusher, which I like although not as much. An interesting alternative, very far from the normal topics of this list, is Lee Perry's/Mad Professor's _Super Ape Inna Jungle_, a very low budget reggae meets dnb that I happen to enjoy. I haven't heard the Derek Bailey, I can't find it, so I have no idea what it sounds like. Jeff Spirer http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/ Axiom Records/Material Communications ------------------------------ End of zorn-list Digest V2 #32 ****************************** To subscribe to zorn-list Digest, send the command: subscribe zorn-list-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@xmission.com". 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