From: zorn-list-owner@xmission.com To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com Subject: zorn-list Digest V2 #69 Reply-To: zorn-list@xmission.com Errors-To: zorn-list-owner@xmission.com Precedence: zorn-list Digest Thursday, 13 March 1997 Volume 02 : Number 069 In this issue: Re: Otomo (was Burroughs) Re: cynical hysterie hour Re: Otomo (was Burroughs) Re: New Fred Frith Album on Tzadik ? Re: Zony Mash Re: Otomo (was Burroughs) Re: Zony Mash Re: Zony Mash Re: Otomo (was Burroughs) Wayne Horvitz & Zony Mash Re: Wayne Horvitz & Zony Mash Masada European dates Re: Wayne Horvitz & Zony Mash Re: Wayne Horvitz & Zony Mash misc. Re: Wayne Horvitz & Zony Mash Re: groundbreaking organists Re: Burroughs Re: chance vs. indeterminacy See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the zorn-list or zorn-list-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Russell Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 09:45:06 +0000 Subject: Re: Otomo (was Burroughs) simon lucas wrote: > >> Who else is tackling the problem of meaning and context using the > sample? > > What do others think about random vs. composed sample-based music? > Simon You've touched on a subject with a potentially vast range. As far as others exploring the use of samples the ones who spring immediately to mind are: Bob Ostertag, tape and sampler manipulator. Played with Fred Frith and Zorn among others. Uses found sounds and custom recordings, re-orders them, cuts them up, swills them around. Most recent project is Say No More series which (I'll admit I haven't heard it yet) takes improvisations by Joey Baron, Phil Minton and others and reorganises them. These are then performed live, re-sampled and rearranged again. The final incarnation of this is yet another live performance and yet another re-organised version of them. David Shea: Sampler/composer. Another cohort of Zorn et al. Specialises in extremely sophisticated sampler based compositions involving samples from soundtracks (Barry, Morricone, Japanese Action movies) interaction with live musicians and dialougue. John Oswald; godfather of plunderphonics. Compiles massively reworked collages of samples. Reworks them to the point of being unrecognisable then generally gets sued by major lables. Most ambitious project has to be his stunning collage of The Grateful Dead's Dark Star as sanctioned by the band. John Wall. London based composer who utilises samples in dark, industrial/ambient style compositions. negativland; The US media pranksters who 'parodied' a U2 song and got sued both by Island Records and SST records for it. There is a large tome called The Story of the Letter U and the Numeral 2 which documents this saga and gives a useful introduction into Negativland's theories of ownership and 'appropriation'. These are the people whom I know about in addition to Otomo, you might also want to check Chris Cutler's ReR label, on which many artists are exploring the possibilities of sampling and plundering. I'd be intertested in any other comments you may have. Scott Russell ------------------------------ From: ssmith@knittingfactory.com (Steve Smith) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:34:07 -0500 Subject: Re: cynical hysterie hour Jeff Spirer wrote: >I think one reason it was so hard to find when it was in print was that >people always wanted a John Zorn recording, but instead it was sold as a >soundtrack to the show. It was sold more in the children's section of CD >stores in Japan. Absolutely true. It's also important, perhaps, to note that Zorn's name did not appear anywhere on the package: the release was listed as being by Kiriko Kubo. >It did go out of print quickly but given that Sony released it as a >soundtrack, this is not surprising. No, what's really surprising is that, given Zorn's solid track record (especially during the Nonesuch years) Sony has never seen fit to capitolize with a reissue of some kind to grab some of that sales potential. And the truly unforgiveable thing is that they won't even license his material back to him for a Tzadik release, which would be the honorable thing to do if they are not issuing it themselves - say, for instance, if they didn't feel like the potential audience was big enough next to a new Mariah Carey release. Steve Smith ssmith@knittingfactory.com ------------------------------ From: flamerik@best.ms.philips.com Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:19:14 --100 Subject: Re: Otomo (was Burroughs) On sample-based music: > You've touched on a subject with a potentially vast range. As far as > others exploring the use of samples the ones who spring immediately to > mind are: > > Bob Ostertag, tape and sampler manipulator. Played with Fred Frith and > > David Shea: Sampler/composer. Another cohort of Zorn et al. > John Oswald; godfather of plunderphonics. Compiles massively reworked > John Wall. London based composer who utilises samples in dark, > industrial/ambient style compositions. > > negativland; The US media pranksters who 'parodied' a U2 song and got > > These are the people whom I know about in addition to Otomo, you might > also want to check Chris Cutler's ReR label, on which many artists are > exploring the possibilities of sampling and plundering. I think you are forgetting DJ Shadow, an American DJ (from LA?) issuing records on the Mo'Wax label. His music is entirely built up of samples, although it sounds as if musicians are playing (at least large parts of it sound like that). Although DJ Shadow insists on being called hip-hop, I think that narrows down his perspective too much. There's hip hop beats for sure, but then there's also film music, dreamlike sequences, harsh bits, etc. Almost sounds like a collage of the best 1970's albums sometimes. Try Endtroducing... on Mo'Wax. Frankco. ------------------------------ From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:08:57 -0800 Subject: Re: New Fred Frith Album on Tzadik ? On Wed, 12 Mar 1997 02:34:21 -0500 (EST) JonAbbey@aol.com wrote: > > <<209 - EYE TO EAR: Fred Frith > > 1997 - Tzadik (USA), TZ 7503 (CD) > > Seems to be out.>> > > Actually, it's being released next Tuesday, the 18th. It seems the Europe got it before. The person who told me about it is German and bought it in a store. I will never understand the mysteries of distribution... Patrice. ------------------------------ From: Nils Jacobson Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:16:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Zony Mash I don't know why anyone would get all that excited about this Zony Mash disc. It's not particularly forward looking and succeeds fairly well but not spectacularly musically. I know Horvitz is popular but I don't see much of a reason for folks to rush out and buy this disc. Just to add a voice of dissent to the surge of agreement. - -Nils ------------------------------ From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:39:21 -0800 Subject: Re: Otomo (was Burroughs) >On sample-based music: > >I think you are forgetting DJ Shadow, an American DJ (from LA?) issuing >records on the Mo'Wax label. His music is entirely built up of samples, >although it sounds as if musicians are playing (at least large parts of it >sound like that). Although DJ Shadow insists on being called hip-hop, I think >that narrows down his perspective too much. There's hip hop beats for sure, >but then there's also film music, dreamlike sequences, harsh bits, etc. >Almost sounds like a collage of the best 1970's albums sometimes. > >Try Endtroducing... on Mo'Wax. > Oddly enough, I was listening to Endtroducing for the first time as I read this msg. His cut "Why Hip Hop Sucks in '96" is pretty hilarious. But as far as innovative sample-based music fronm the DJ world, I think DJ Spooky is much more interesting than DJ Shadow. His "Songs of a Dead Dreamer" disc on Asphodel is one of my faves of any style of music released last year. Incredible stuff, as dense as any of Otomo's work, but with great '70's funk/hip hop/dub underpinnings And for the Burroughs connection, his full nom-de-turntable is DJ Spooky, the Subliminal Kid, after a Burroughs ccharacter... ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel, NEW EMAIL ADDRESS: improv@peak.org self promotional web-site: http://www.peak.org/~improv/ "A squid eating dough in a polyethelene bag is fast and bulbous, got me?" -Captain Beefheart ________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: "M.Ho" Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 13:30:34 EST Subject: Re: Zony Mash > > I don't know why anyone would get all that excited about this Zony Mash > disc. It's not particularly forward looking and succeeds fairly well but > not spectacularly musically. I know Horvitz is popular but I don't see > much of a reason for folks to rush out and buy this disc. Just to add a > voice of dissent to the surge of agreement. > > -Nils This is not ment to insult you but could you give more specifics on why you do not like this album. I just generally live by the rule that if I don't have specific criticism for an album that I dislike, I'll just keep my mouth shut because sometimes things won't work for me now but may later. I'm asking for your specific opinion because the postings have sparked my interest in purchasing this album but would like to get your side of it. ------------------------------ From: "Glenn Astarita" Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 12:06:34 -0600 Subject: Re: Zony Mash - ---------- > From: Nils Jacobson > Subject: Re: Zony Mash > Date: Wednesday, March 12, 1997 11:16 AM > > I don't know why anyone would get all that excited about this Zony Mash > disc. It's not particularly forward looking and succeeds fairly well but > not spectacularly musically. I know Horvitz is popular but I don't see > much of a reason for folks to rush out and buy this disc. Just to add a > voice of dissent to the surge of agreement. > > -Nils > > > I disagree...personally, i'd say its one of the more "happening" things of late ! It's toe-tappin, exhilarating and combines all the elements of Horvitz' unique insight and uncanny approach ! This stuff would most obviously appeal to a wider audience. granted ! However, take the rock elements combined with the twist and turns, great but thoughtful soloing and stop on a dime tempos ! A definite First Class effort. The compositions really add a wonderful element to this disk. No filler material here ! (IMO, of course)... glenn ------------------------------ From: Bob Boster Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:59:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Otomo (was Burroughs) Not sure if I should really wade into this, but since I actually make music this way I guess I have at least a certain position that bears mentioning. I perform with CD players and electronics extensively, both in a solo DJ-like capacity as well as in improvisational gropu settings. On the question of "chance", someone said: > > > It seems to me that Otomo is more > >'Burroughsian' than these in that his collages are live and improvised > >as opposed to constructed. He really allows for chance to bring > >together disparate elements. This is true of Otomo's work from our perspective as well as his. The improvisation is "apparent" in the work, and for him, works to great effect. He does something I often try to do, which is "compose" through a given set of possible source material and possible things to do with it (the finite parameters of what the machines in question can do) and then "improvise" the outcome of any given performance. Someone points this out clearly: > 1. As you say, he must select records and choose which ones he plays in > advance , but also, maybe he knows which sections will work within a > given context from experience. Expereince is a key idea. Like any other instrument, as you learn about how your "rig" works many self-evident and self-limiting aspects of what the equipment can do becomes clear. These things structure the outcome implicitly, and explains why many people are constantly changing or developing their equipment sets to help keep from "settling" into a pattern. > > Personally, I want to understand how he achieves this. > > Who else is tackling the problem of meaning and context using the > sample? I know I am in my work. I think clearly there are a number of other performers/composers who touch down in this territory as well (John Oswald, Negativland, Bob Ostertag, and some of the illbient folks). In terms of reading on the subject, the first place to look for "theory" is the Negativland book. > > What do others think about random vs. composed sample-based music? > I can't help but think that there's no such thing as random. I mean, even if I set up all my stuff and then "randomly" sift through a pile of source material in a given performance, the outcome makes surprising kinds of sense. Even a piece I did for a group of people blindly mixing material I randomly played in 8 CD players ended up making a lot of sense. Juxtaposition works that way, to large extent. And the linearity of sounds lead us down certain cognitive pathes as well. Even played backwards samples make some kinds of linear sense because that's how we hear often, the sound moving forward through time with us. Bob Boster (aka Mr. Meridies) boster@mills.edu friction@pobox.com ------------------------------ From: Tom Pratt Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:32:59 -0500 Subject: Wayne Horvitz & Zony Mash I think that this album is decent. I do like it although some of the music (compositions) aren't very interesting and they don't seem to have a lot of energy for the sound they're going for. Wayne Horvitz's organ playing also just seems primitive and a little bit lame too because the one of the only B-3 players I've been listening to in the past 2 years is John Medeski (who I hear A LOT of) so I was disappointed to hear somebody playing it that just didn't have the flavor of Medeski. Medeski just makes Horvitz sound lame to me. Anyway, it IS a fun album and has some groove merit but I really don't understand the Zony Mash craze that some people seem to have gotten into. -Tom Pratt ------------------------------ From: "Glenn Astarita" Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:36:43 -0600 Subject: Re: Wayne Horvitz & Zony Mash - ---------- > From: Tom Pratt > To: zorn-list@xmission.com > Subject: Wayne Horvitz & Zony Mash > Date: Wednesday, March 12, 1997 3:32 PM > > I think that this album is decent. I do like it although some of the > music (compositions) aren't very interesting and they don't seem to have > a lot of energy for the sound they're going for. Wayne Horvitz's organ > playing also just seems primitive and a little bit lame too because the > one of the only B-3 players I've been listening to in the past 2 years > is John Medeski (who I hear A LOT of) so I was disappointed to hear > somebody playing it that just didn't have the flavor of Medeski. > Medeski just makes Horvitz sound lame to me. Anyway, it IS a fun album > and has some groove merit but I really don't understand the Zony Mash > craze that some people seem to have gotten into. A B-3, is well....a... B-3 ! I really don't see much of a difference in the "sound" dept. Could you actually pass a blindfold test of organ riffs alternating between Medeski and Horvitz ? Primitive and lame ? What does lame mean in this context ? BTW, the Zony Mash cd (IMO) is far more interesting than the latest MM&W effort. Seems like MM&W have reached a pinnacle of creativity and need to diversify. I'd say they've stagnated ! Has John Medeski (whom i like very much btw..) set the new standard by which to compare ? For that matter what do you think of Jimmy Smith or John Patton ? to name but a few ... glenn > > ------------------------------ From: "kevin cornish" Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 23:05:51 -0000 Subject: Masada European dates is it rumour or are /is masada playing in europe ? can anyone give any details to masada european dates ? in particular are they playing in uk ? if not why not ? kevin kcornish@netcomuk.co.uk ------------------------------ From: Tom Pratt Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 19:57:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Wayne Horvitz & Zony Mash > A B-3, is well....a... B-3 ! I really don't see much of a difference > in the "sound" dept. John Medeski sounds completely different tone wise than any other B-3 player I've ever heard. He tweeks with the sounds so much more than any one else, and his style is so definitive. > Could you actually pass a blindfold test of organ riffs > alternating between Medeski and Horvitz ? Absolutely. > Primitive and lame ? What does > lame mean in this context ? I mean it's more funny sounding than cool sounding. > BTW, the Zony Mash cd (IMO) is far more > interesting than the latest MM&W effort. Seems like MM&W have reached > a pinnacle of creativity and need to diversify. I'd say they've > stagnated ! I agree that 'Shack-Man' isn't as good as the rest of 'em but it jams harder than Zony Mash especially live. those songs off the new album I think are decent on the CD but live they are awesome! I don't know about them having stagnated, I think this is where they want to go and I think you'll find the next CD to be very different from 'Shack-Man'. > Has John Medeski (whom i > like very much btw..) set the new standard by which to compare? I think definitely he has. His unique approach to keyboards and effects backed up by unbelievable chops makes him a completely new and one of if not the most important keyboardists around. He plays the B-3 like no one else ever has and does and his explorations into other keyboards make you say "wait are there TWO guitars in this band?" Not to mention his u\amazing piano playing. listen to 'Notes From The Underground' or the Andre Jaume/John Medeski duets album 'Team Games' or Dougie Bowne's 'One Way Elevator' to get a flavor of this. For that > matter what do you think of Jimmy Smith or John Patton ? to name but a few > ... I think they're great especially Richard "Groove" Holmes. He busts it up soulwise but on the creatively groundbreaking side, they're lacking, but I don't think they were ever trying to do this. They were playing what they loved, felt and moved them and their audience. I don't think Zony Mash is a bad album by any respects. I just don't particularly like Horvitz's Hammond playing that much. I think the album is fun and sometimes funny and it will remain in my CD collection and be played sort of often. I don't think that it's spectacular. -Tom Pratt ------------------------------ From: Justin Morrison Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 21:02:23 -0800 Subject: Re: Wayne Horvitz & Zony Mash James L. Kirchmer wrote: > just droppin' a note to say that Zony Mash's debut album, > titled "Cold Spell", is out and it's HOT! . . . > time, as the original compositions presented by Wayne on this Zony Mash > debut have just the right hint of a late '60's funk/blues/improv > influence. > Wayne gives the funk a bit of a scientific treatment as well. > I suppose "avant-funk improv" might be a good label, but I hate labels. Not that this is that important or anything, but does the funk/blues influence sound like it could have come from the Meters? They had songs called "Zony Mash" and "Dry Spell". Just wondering if this was a reference. . . - --Justin, Toronto ------------------------------ From: Tom Pratt Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 21:58:54 -0500 Subject: misc. Justin Morrison wrote: > > James L. Kirchmer wrote: > > > just droppin' a note to say that Zony Mash's debut album, > > titled "Cold Spell", is out and it's HOT! > . . . > > time, as the original compositions presented by Wayne on this Zony Mash > > debut have just the right hint of a late '60's funk/blues/improv > > influence. > > Wayne gives the funk a bit of a scientific treatment as well. > > I suppose "avant-funk improv" might be a good label, but I hate labels. > > Not that this is that important or anything, but does the funk/blues > influence sound like it could have come from the Meters? They had songs > called "Zony Mash" and "Dry Spell". Just wondering if this was a > reference. . . > > --Justin, Toronto Yup. The Meters influence is definitely there. Zony Mash was indeed taken from a Meters song. By the way, does anyone know if John Zorn himself reads any of this stuff or if he even has an e-mail address? Also, I was talking to Erik Friedlander and he says that Zorn is planning on recording some more Masada stuff this year. Erik says that it's hard to say what the whole concept is going to be but that it will involve a string trio. Maybe even a string trio record with Mark Feldman, Erik Friedlander and Greg Cohen. This trio will be touring Europe in November and maybe the states next year some time. Just some info as vague as it may be. -Tom Pratt ------------------------------ From: ssmith@knittingfactory.com (Steve Smith) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 23:17:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Wayne Horvitz & Zony Mash James L. Kirchmer wrote: >Not that this is that important or anything, but does the funk/blues >influence sound like it could have come from the Meters? They had songs >called "Zony Mash" and "Dry Spell". Just wondering if this was a >reference. . . Right on the money. Steve ssmith@knittingfactory.com ------------------------------ From: Christopher Hamilton Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 03:56:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: groundbreaking organists On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Tom Pratt wrote: > For that > > matter what do you think of Jimmy Smith or John Patton ? to name but a few > > ... > > I think they're great especially Richard "Groove" Holmes. He busts it up > soulwise but on the creatively groundbreaking side, they're lacking, but > I don't think they were ever trying to do this. They were playing what > they loved, felt and moved them and their audience. Um, wasn't Smith the first person to develop a jazz style on electric organ? How could this not be creatively groundbreaking? Chris Hamilton ------------------------------ From: James Douglas Knox Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:06:38 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: Burroughs Hi, Burroughs book actually took its title from an old SF novel by Allan E Nourse (I think), maybe from the 40s: a borrowing Burroughs acknowledged. Dunno why the studio used the title for Scott's film of Dick's novel, but Burroughs gets a thanks for the use of it at the end of the closing credits... Cheers On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, SUGAR in their vitamins? wrote: > > On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Christopher Hamilton wrote: > > > > I can't remember any specific references (apart from the mention of > > > Blade Runner in the notes to Spillane) in Zorn's case but his whole > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Are you running together Burroughs and Philip K. Dick here? > > if memory serves, the Dick book > was originally titled something > like "Do Androids Dream of > Electric Sheep?". it was only > after the book was turned into > the film "Blade Runner" that the > book title changed. i'm sure > someone can correct me if i'm > horribly wrong... > > whereas, Burroughs did write a > screenplay book (in the '70s, i > believe) titled "Blade Runner" > about teenaged bisexual boys > working as drug runners in an > appocalyptic, post-world war III > America. > > hasta. > > Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE. > ------------------------------ From: James Douglas Knox Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:16:23 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: chance vs. indeterminacy Oh, there shouldn't be any problem linking Zorn and Cage (see way below) - round the time Zorn was busy being born, Cage wrote instructions in his piece 'Water Music' for the player to blow thru a clarinet mouthpiece into a bowl of water (!). Couple years later, Cage did his amazing 'Fontana Mix' - still a solid piece of cut/up musique concrete. Cheers... On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Scott Russell wrote: > Matthew Ross Davis wrote: > > > You have to be very careful about the difference between "chance" and > > "indeterminacy" when talking about Cage. He (and several others, myself > > included) considered "chance" the action of using chance methods in > > composing the work - i.e. casting I Ching hexagrams or rolling dice. > > "Chance" happened *before* the piece ever got handed to the musicians. > > > > "Indeterminacy" is a whole different ballgame. "Indeterminate" scores leave > > certain (or all) elements of the piece up to the whim of the performer. > > This could be within certain constraints or with no rules at all. > > > > With this in mind, Zorn's compositions are almost never chance, and nearly > > always indeterminate (I think this is what you meant anyway). There is a > > fine line too between improvisatory and indeterminate, especially in Zorn's > > terms. For example, in Cobra, the process by which instructions and > > flash-cards are given and requested is indeterminate; the improvisatory > > part comes with the interpretation of those instructions. By the same > > token, you could always call improvisation an 'indeterminate' act. So you > > see, they're not mutually exclusive, but they're not synonyms either. > > > > I wouldn't make this point if Cage himself hadn't emphasized it as well. > > And since you're making the comparison, it's worth while to examine the > > terminology and philosophy behind it. > > > > I'm not sure if you can apply this to Burroughs's cut-ups or not. The > > cut-up is usually constructed only once. It's not so much a performance as > > it is a sculpture, so it's arguable whether or not the technique (in Cagean > > terms) would be considered chance methods or indeterminate methods. The > > lines between in this case grow very cloudy indeed. > > > > Matthew > > Thanks Matthew > > You are splitting some very fine hairs indeed! Perhaps I shouldn't > have mentioned Cage in reference to Zorn, it seems to raise some > hackles.My comments about Zorn's (alleged) use of chance were meant on > a fairly general level, however I do agree with your comparison of > Burrough's cut ups to sculpture. I wonder, if Burroughs had turned to > music (I mean as an instrumenalist rather than a 'reader') as well as > texts and visuals, if he would have extended his technique to > incorporate time, which is essentially the distinction we are making > here. Zorn, Shea, Otomo etc have more 'information' to play with;ie > music has volume, velocity, texture, time etc where text is obviously > fixed. I think Otomo's approach is closest to Burroughs. > > What do you think? > > Scott Russell. > ------------------------------ End of zorn-list Digest V2 #69 ****************************** To subscribe to zorn-list Digest, send the command: subscribe zorn-list-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@xmission.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-zorn-list": subscribe zorn-list-digest local-zorn-list@your.domain.net A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date.