From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #313 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Tuesday, April 7 1998 Volume 02 : Number 313 In this issue: - Re: king crimson (and similarities engine) Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #307 Re: Crimson Re: No More Lists Re:FAITH NO MORE King Crimson Re:reich/trane Norman Yamata RE: interesting small venues? Re:FAITH NO MORE Re:experimentation/was FAITH NO MORE Re:experimentation Andrew Hill Is this annoying? Re: anti-bargain deals Re: math rock Re: Steve Reich Re: math rock Re: math rock King Crimson Vog ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 12:29:22 -0500 (CDT) From: "Joseph S. Zitt" Subject: Re: king crimson (and similarities engine) On Tue, 7 Apr 1998, Dan Hewins wrote: > a recommendation list but that was pretty lame. I looked at the guys > webpage the other day and he said he sold the technology to a company > called Firefly (don't quote me on this one) and they apparently haven't > done anything useful with it yet. I really hope they do though, the > similarites engine was absolutely mind-blowing. Check out http://www.tunes.com/ who seem to be using a similar technology. - - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \| - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 19:57:28 +0200 From: stamil@t-online.de (Chris Genzel) Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #307 >Outside of a couple of Old & New Dreams and Dewey Redman albums, the Art >Ensemble has the only stuff on ECM that isn't a replacement for sleeping >pills. There's a new CD on ECM by Nils Petter Molvaer, "Khmer", which is absolutely great. It's the most modern CD ECM ever has produced, with lots of samples, drum beats/loops, treated guitars and the lot. I like it a whole lot, and there's been a remix EP with reconstructions by The Herbalizer, Rocker's Hifi and somebody else I can't remember now. And then there was Julian Priester's "Love, Love" from 1974 (when will they rerelease it?) which I think is as beautiful as it is exciting, and it has lots of energy. Kind regards, - Chris. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:03:55 -0400 From: "Chris Barr{tt" Subject: Re: Crimson >B'Boom is all right, but it doesn't even come close to licking the >decals off the above two. Nope, wasn't suggesting that it was their best live one, but simply that it was a good overview of Belew's work with the band, with a hint of the 73-74 lineup that everyone (including myself) seems to like so much..... - -Chris - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 20:01:14 +0200 From: stamil@t-online.de (Chris Genzel) Subject: Re: No More Lists > p.s. other than the recent list making frenzy, > the zorn-list has been the pillar of an excellent > mailing list. Well, I enjoyed these lists, but apart from that I have to agree: the zorn-list is the most open-minded, interesting, fascinating, fun-to-read mailing list I know. Kind regards, - Chris. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:16:17 -0300 From: Lucio Subject: Re:FAITH NO MORE > When you ask what's so experimental about FNM just listen to some of > their tracks. Are they a "heavy rock" band? (Caffeine, Surprise!You're > Dead!, Malpractice) A "pop group"? (She Loves Me Not, Take this Bottle, > Just a Man) Do they do "dance music"? (Last Cup of Sorrow Bonehead Mix, > A Small Victory r-evolution 23 full moon mix, Ashes to Ashes Dillinja > Mix) Are they into "trip hop"? (Stripsearch, Pristina Billy Gould Mix) > Jazz? (Star AD) Rap? (Epic) And the musical styles go on and on... that makes them eclectic, which isn't necessarily the same thing as experimental. Well, the term "experimental" is quite vague. What is to be "experimental"? Which band do you consider to be "experimental"? I think this is a word which we usually use but which doesn't have a valid meaning nowdays. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:35:26 From: "Doug McKay" Subject: King Crimson Here's my odd, fully opinionated take on Crimson. I've got all their studio albums through the 80's plus most of what Fripp did aside from Crimson up to then. I respect Fripp and, being a drummer myself, I love Bruford's style, including his work with YES. Bruford on drums and Wetton on bass and vocals made the best compliments to the pre-80s Fripp. This Crimson is incredible. The other stuff is good but this is great. In the 80's Fripp is in a new phase. It's rhymically interesting and Bruford gets to show his talent. Tony Levin on bass fits right in with Fripp's new style. Belew as noise maker and weird singer more or less works well with this but IN MY BIASED OPINION Belew is a bubble-gum animal freak and should have never been brought back for the new Crimson. THRAK was my biggest musical disappointment since Alice Cooper did MUSCLE OF LOVE. Bruford is astonishingly dull on THRAK and I like Bruford a lot, so I don't like saying this. Belew is just repeating himself and doing it far worse. And he's still singing about animals. Fripp sounds like someone trying to recapture past greatness and having no clue how he did it. THRAK is like a bar band trying to compose old Crimson style songs and failing. Addtionally, after my discovery of Ayler and Dolphy, the attempts throughout the early Crimson to incorporate jazz and do the free jazz thing sound sophmoric. Before when I heard this on Crimson I was impressed at the chaos making music, now it just seems second rate. King Crimson as a trio: Bruford, Wetton, Fripp. That was the best of a band that's always been pretty damn good. Until now. Doug McKay In Minnesota - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 11:17:37 -0800 From: George Grella Subject: Re:reich/trane Patrice writes: > It is basically a retrospective of Reich's music. All new interpretations of > most of his compositions (few missing, such as PENDULUM MUSIC). > Strictly speaking, it is not all new, in case someone is looking for second recordings of familiar works. There's a lot in the set that has been released already by Nonesuch, e.g. "The Cave," "Three Movements." gg - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:25:35 -0700 (PDT) From: "Cappy D'Angelo" Subject: Norman Yamata Anyone know how I can contact Norman Yamata? (or have any info on his music?) Cappy D'Angelo Student at Law - Intellectual Property Dabbler in Recording - Sonic Solutions Digital Editing and Mastering Twanger of Guitar & Blower of Eb Horns of Alto & Bari Persuasion Victoria, B.C., CANADA - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:32:30 -0500 From: Rusty Crump Subject: RE: interesting small venues? >Uh, isn't Memphis and Mississippi a bit far from Canada? > >mike rizzi > >---------- >From: Rusty Crump >Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 1998 9:51 AM >To: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: interesting small venues? > >>Hi, new to the list, excuse the slightly irrelevant first posting: >> >>Someone who books gigs for God is My Copilot (not sure if they've featured >>on anyone's top 20?) wants suggestions for small innovative venues in >>Montreal, Quebec City, Ottawa, and Toronto. Where are good places to hear >>interesting gigs? Newly arrived in Canada, I've also got a vested >>interest in finding this out... >> >>Fiona >> >> >>- > Yes, and let this be a lesson to everyone who might be tempted to do as I do, and respond to something on the zornlist without completely reading what it is one is responding to. Dying of mortification, Rusty Crump Oxford, Mississippi >Barristers in Memphis has been known to present some good shows over the >past few years, now that the Antenna Club is no more. Masada played there, >Zony Mash played there... Sheep on Drugs... the Jesus Lizard, recently >(very disappointing show, by the way. The opening band, The Diarrhea of >Anne Frank, was more interesting.) A guy named Chris Walker has been >putting on some great shows in Memphisto, and for a while Barristers was >his venue. Chris is also doing shows at the Young Avenue Deli now, if I'm >not mistaken. (He booked the recent Polvo and Eugene Chadbourne shows >there, I think.) Anyway, in Memphis it seems the venue is secondary to the >promoter: good promoter (like Chris), good show, no matter where it winds >up being. > >The Antenna Club is now a lesbian bar, and the Oblivians have played there >live since it stopped being the Antenna, and now that I think about it, >that might be a fun venue for GodCo to play. > >Here in Oxford, Proud Larry's used to do great shows (Medeski, Martin & >Wood; Dick Dale; Ween), and still could, if only there were someone who >knew anything about music booking for them. The music-minded of the two >owners moved back to Atlanta last year to look after his mother after his >father was killed in a plane crash. So while there's still great food >there, the live music leaves a lot to be desired. > >Rusty Crump >Oxford, Mississippi > > > >- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:37:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Brent Burton Subject: Re:FAITH NO MORE On Tue, 7 Apr 1998, Lucio wrote: >> that makes them eclectic, which isn't necessarily the same thing as >> experimental. > > Well, the term "experimental" is quite vague. What is to be > "experimental"? Which band do you consider to be "experimental"? I think > this is a word which we usually use but which doesn't have a valid meaning > nowdays. "founded on or derived from experiment," says webster's. i grant you that in dealing with the arts, that definition can be vague. however, what you described was eclecticism - genre hopping. that doesn't necessitate that fnm is experimental. b - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 12:06:01 -0700 (PDT) From: "Cappy D'Angelo" Subject: Re:experimentation/was FAITH NO MORE IMHO, "experimentation" suggests actions whose reactions are unpredictable (eg "let's throw the piano out the window of the 10th floor and hear what it sounds like when it lands"), and would encompass both "indeterminacy" (eg "let's draw squiggles on a page and tell performers to play it) and "chance" (eg "let's flip a coin to determine if we should use an f or an f#"). I would agree that "pragmatic" is a better term for FNM. Cappy D'Angelo Student at Law - Intellectual Property Dabbler in Recording - Sonic Solutions Digital Editing and Mastering Twanger of Guitar & Blower of Eb Horns of Alto & Bari Persuasion Victoria, B.C., CANADA - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 21:00:54 UT From: peter_risser@cinfin.com Subject: Re:experimentation Yeah, but good experimentation goes beyond that, I think, and hits even good free-improv. Like, sure, throwing a piano out the window would sound super-cool, but how many times can you do that before it gets old? Good experimentation is like a brainstorm. Here's an idea, let's do what freewheeling craziness we can to expand it to its greatest extent and see what cool things we can come up with. In my opinion, expermentation/experimental music is alright, but I'm really only interested in what comes OUT of that experimentation, not the process in itself, although that could be good too. My roommate used to say it pissed him off when people called it "experimental" cuz the experimenting was already done. Now we're playing music. So. Throwing a piano out the window, or getting five people in the room to jam on the same piano could be considered experimental. And that's fine once. But if you manage to incorporate a piano out the window in a major piece to great effect, or form an ensemble that plays all the parts (legs, top, etc.) of a grand piano and makes a fucking great noise with it, maybe that's post-experimental music, too. Which is more what I'm interested in. Same with throwing a coin. That's the experiment. Let's see what this sounds like. Then, when you've figured out a really cool way to do coin-throwing pieces, that's experimental too. Or post-experimental. See, I'd say Zorn's early game pieces are experimental in the pure sense. And the later ones (the more popular ones) like Cobra are the results of what he learned from the experiments. So, is it still experimental? Sure. FNM doesn't really do this. I'd say, yeah, they're eclectic. Unless you say, Hey, what happens when a popular band records wacked jazz tunes, rap songs, sings in Portugese, etc.? That could be cool! Let's see what we can do with that concept. I suppose then it relies on your level of "experimentalism". But in looking back on my ramble, I wonder about Mike Bolton's new disc. Let's see what happens when we take a mediocre pop singer and get him to sing opera music. Sounds experimental to me... :) PeterR ____________________Reply Separator____________________ Subject: Re:experimentation/was FAITH NO MORE Author: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com Date: 04/07/1998 2:06 PM IMHO, "experimentation" suggests actions whose reactions are unpredictable (eg "let's throw the piano out the window of the 10th floor and hear what it sounds like when it lands"), and would encompass both "indeterminacy" (eg "let's draw squiggles on a page and tell performers to play it) and "chance" (eg "let's flip a coin to determine if we should use an f or an f#"). I would agree that "pragmatic" is a better term for FNM. Cappy D'Angelo Student at Law - Intellectual Property Dabbler in Recording - Sonic Solutions Digital Editing and Mastering Twanger of Guitar & Blower of Eb Horns of Alto & Bari Persuasion Victoria, B.C., CANADA - - - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:18:55 -0400 (EDT) From: William York Subject: Andrew Hill I was surprised to see that with all of the mentions Dolphy's Out to Lunch got that nobody mentioned Andrew Hill's 'Point of Deparure", rec. a month after (or before) w/ 3 of the same band members. It's equally great in my opinion. Sorry to remind any one of the lists, who might be trying to forget. A bit off topic too... - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:25:35 -0400 (EDT) From: William York Subject: Is this annoying? It doesn't bother me when others do this, but if it's annoying please tell me. I am unloading the following Cds, we can negotiate off the list. Ornette Coleman- Sound Museum/Hidden Man Frank Zappa- Grand Wazoo, Joe's Garage, YCDTOSA Vol. 5, The Best Band You've Never Heard in Your Life (Barking Pumpkin edition) Masada- VAV (6) Third Rail- South Delta Space Age Bern Nix Trio- Alarms and Excursions (w/ Fred Hopkins, Newman Baker on New World/Counter Currents) - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 22:07:35 +0200 From: stamil@t-online.de (Chris Genzel) Subject: Re: anti-bargain deals > Now my question for you is: What is the most you have spent on a single > disc? I'm not talking about boxed sets, just one disc, by itself. I paid 65 DM, which is about 37 $, for "Herbie Hancock: Dis Is Da Drum" when it came out. It was a Japanese import, and one month later it was available for half the price. But it's been worth it. - Chris. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:49:14 -0400 (EDT) From: ia zha nah er vesen Subject: Re: math rock WHAT'S MATH ROCK??????? thanks, jascha On Sun, 5 Apr 1998, Jeff Gretz wrote: > you forgot the most IMPORTANT math-rock band of all time, BREADWINNER (which > was an off-shoor of Honor Role) > > jeff > > - > - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 17:01:18 -0400 (EDT) From: ia zha nah er vesen Subject: Re: Steve Reich > I was really surprised how similar this new interpretation is (as compared > to the ECM one). I am even wondering if, duration aside, I could detect a > difference. This will be a good argument for those who judge Reich's music > too mechanical :-). > So, were all the compositions in the Reich Box rercorded especially for it? What an expensive undertaking... Any thoughts on whether the original performances are better or not? - -jascha - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:58:57 -0500 From: Dan Hewins Subject: Re: math rock Math rock is kinda like this: 8 measures of 13/8 4 measures of 3/4 7 measures of 7/8 1 measure of 8/8 6 measures of 4/4 rinse and repeat. A peev: why call it 13/8 if it's more easily "feel-able" as one 6/8 and one 7/8? This could go on forever so I'll just stop now. Dan At 3:49 PM -0500 4/7/98, ia zha nah er vesen wrote: >WHAT'S MATH ROCK??????? > >thanks, > jascha - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:17:52 -0500 (CDT) From: "Joseph S. Zitt" Subject: Re: math rock On Tue, 7 Apr 1998, Dan Hewins wrote: > 8 measures of 13/8 (snip) > A peev: why call it 13/8 if it's more easily "feel-able" as one 6/8 and one > 7/8? Because it's easier to say "8 measures of 13/8" than 1 measure of 6/8 1 measure of 7/8 1 measure of 6/8 1 measure of 7/8 1 measure of 6/8 1 measure of 7/8 1 measure of 6/8 1 measure of 7/8 1 measure of 6/8 1 measure of 7/8 1 measure of 6/8 1 measure of 7/8 1 measure of 6/8 1 measure of 7/8 1 measure of 6/8 1 measure of 7/8 or even "eight instances of 1 measure of 6/8 followed by 1 measure of 7/8". - - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \| - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 17:00:02 -0500 From: Phil Plencner Subject: King Crimson Finally someone mentioned Lizard! I find that to be a very enjoyable KC album, but if your looking for fancy guitar work or loud rock, this is not what your looking for. Very jazzy, lots of fantastic horn solos. Guest singing on the title track by Jon Anderson of Yes. Also from the same period of crimson, but not nearly as good, is Islands. I would say stay away from this one. The sound is pretty muddy, and most of the songwriting is pretty blah. Although the tune "Sailor's Tale" is pretty cool, the rest (to me) falls flat. Someone else I believe mentioned The Young Persons Guide To King Crimson, which is an excellent collection. I found it in a local used record shop for a couple of bucks, so I don't think its too hard to find on vinyl. Came with an informative booklet too! Phil - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 17:05:57 -0500 From: Phil Plencner Subject: Vog Just read this at the addicted to noise web site (www.addict.com). Sounds interesting...anybody else out there heard any insights about this project? Tuatara sax player Skerik has formed a new instrumental, jazz-flavored combo called Vog with keyboardist Wayne Horvitz, drummer Bobby Previte and pianist Dave Palmer. They plan to issue an album on Pearl Jam guitarist Stone Gossard's Loosegroove label this summer. [Mon., Apr 6, 11:07 PM PDT] - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #313 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date.