From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #443 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Tuesday, August 18 1998 Volume 02 : Number 443 In this issue: - Re: Non-musicians Re: experimental/ skills Re: Michel Godard berne's no(h)bag tour: UK / dave Douglas Re: Praxis Re: Praxis Re: experimental/ skills VINYL/CD Sale (Updated 8/18/98) ... Praxis recommendation Re: Praxis recommendation Min Xiao-Fen Re: experimental/ skills Re: Michel Godard klezmer theory Re: Praxis recommendation Re: Praxis recommendation Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #434 Weird Little [Fwd: SONNY SHARROCK TRIBUTE@KNITTING FACTORY 8/23RE] Re: Weird Little ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:14:12 GMT0BST From: DR S WILKIE Subject: Re: Non-musicians Just an aside to the debate, but isn't there a big difference between recorded and live music, in this respect? That the latter means you're performing: not that the music can't play a BIG part in that, but it can't JUST be music in that context, surely? (Sometimes, this is a problem I have at concerts: I don't feel they're performing - for this audience, at that time - at all). Sean - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 08:24:25 -0700 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: experimental/ skills On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 06:16:53 -0700 "Christian Heslop" wrote: > > Chris, > I think I would have to go with Varese on that question. But I do agree > somewhat with Miles Davis in terms of his purpose, if he wants to It is fairly funny that people quote Miles Davis when we all know what he said of most '60s avant garde artists... Yes, Miles was talking about experimentation, but there were definitely things that he believed was crap (and I don't agree with him). This makes using Miles Davis quote fairly innapropriate in the context of this discussion. Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 18:43:02 +0200 From: "dekater" Subject: Re: Michel Godard Brian wrote: >Relistening to the second disc of the La Banda album a few times, I've >come around to enjoy it more and more, especially the piece by French >tubaist Michel Godard. Is anyone familiar with his other work? I'm not familiar with Godards work but during my vacation I bought a Nato cd in Lyon ('Les films de ma Ville 1' - nato 112033) on which improvising musicians play film themes (a.o. Steve Arguelles. Steve Beresford, Tony Coe...) On it a duo Lol Coxhill-Michel Godard playing the tune from 'Mon oncle', a film by Jacques Tati. Great! Jan Luyben - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:51:28 PDT From: "Scott Handley" Subject: berne's no(h)bag tour: UK / dave Douglas It just occurred to me that I hadn't heard anything about Tim Berne's medium-large ensemble tour of the UK, only about four or five dates. It was called the No(h)bag tour, and featured Evan Parker (!) and Django Bates, among others. Anybody catch any of these? Even if you don't want to post, could you at least let me know what I missed? Also, Dave Douglas tapes are wanted! Did THOUGHTS AROUND MAHFOUZ gig more than once? cheers, scott ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:54:19 -0700 From: Jeff Spirer Subject: Re: Praxis At 02:23 PM 8/17/98 -0700, Jeff Spirer wrote: >At 05:01 PM 8/17/98 -0400, Kevin Neales wrote: >>I noticed a Praxis Compilation CD at a record store today. It has all >>previously released material including one Death Cube K song. It is on >>the Douglas label, but the packaging looked really cheap. >> >>However, I also noticed on the Koch webpage that there is a new Praxis >>album due out this month called Mold on the Yikes label. Does anyone >>know anything about this?? Who plays on it???? This has been delayed until September 16. In addition to the original tracks by Bill, there is new stuff on it by Alex Haas (half of Cypher 7), Pat Thrall, and David Castelan. Jeff Spirer B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/ Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:54:19 -0700 From: Jeff Spirer Subject: Re: Praxis At 02:23 PM 8/17/98 -0700, Jeff Spirer wrote: >At 05:01 PM 8/17/98 -0400, Kevin Neales wrote: >>I noticed a Praxis Compilation CD at a record store today. It has all >>previously released material including one Death Cube K song. It is on >>the Douglas label, but the packaging looked really cheap. >> >>However, I also noticed on the Koch webpage that there is a new Praxis >>album due out this month called Mold on the Yikes label. Does anyone >>know anything about this?? Who plays on it???? This has been delayed until September 16. In addition to the original tracks by Bill, there is new stuff on it by Alex Haas (half of Cypher 7), Pat Thrall, and David Castelan. Jeff Spirer B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/ Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 11:32:53 -0700 From: "Christian Heslop" Subject: Re: experimental/ skills I didn't quote Miles Davis someone else on this post did. - ---------- > From: Patrice L. Roussel > To: Christian Heslop > Cc: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com; proussel@ichips.intel.com > Subject: Re: experimental/ skills > Date: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 8:24 AM > > > On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 06:16:53 -0700 "Christian Heslop" wrote: > > > > Chris, > > I think I would have to go with Varese on that question. But I do agree > > somewhat with Miles Davis in terms of his purpose, if he wants to > > It is fairly funny that people quote Miles Davis when we all know what he > said of most '60s avant garde artists... > > Yes, Miles was talking about experimentation, but there were definitely things > that he believed was crap (and I don't agree with him). > > This makes using Miles Davis quote fairly innapropriate in the context of this > discussion. > > Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 14:33:15 -0400 From: pm.carey@utoronto.ca (Patrick Carey) Subject: VINYL/CD Sale (Updated 8/18/98) ... Hi, I've just added a few new items to my vinyl/CD sale list. They can be found (along with basic info) at the following website: http://www.astro.utoronto.ca/~carey/sofa/sale.html If you are browser challenged, I can email you the list. Just let me know. New items include, among other things ... ø (Mika Vainio), Pan(a)sonic, Coil, Scorn, Gastr Del Sol, Tortoise, Oval etc. Thanks for looking. - -Patrick pm.carey@utoronto.ca - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:45:58 -0400 From: Marc Downing Subject: Praxis recommendation I would like to get a Praxis cd. It would be my first listening. Does anyone have any recommendations? Marc - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 14:54:40 -0500 (CDT) From: "Joseph S. Zitt" Subject: Re: Praxis recommendation On Tue, 18 Aug 1998, Marc Downing wrote: > I would like to get a Praxis cd. It would be my first listening. Does > anyone have any recommendations? The only one that I've heard is the live album with the Invisible Scratch Picklez (sp?), which I love and recommend highly. I just picked up their "Metatron" for $3 during lunch, and will listen to it after this John Coltrane CD is over... - - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \| - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 98 17:01:59 -0300 From: hulinare@bemberg.com.ar Subject: Min Xiao-Fen Hey Zornheads! I've enjoyed a lot Min Xiao-Fen's playing in Filmworks VIII; is there any other cd you could recommend me to dig in? Thanks in advance, Hugo - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:13:22 -0700 From: john shiurba Subject: Re: experimental/ skills Christian Heslop wrote: > I also happen to believe that if the > "musician" is not aware of what they are producing then they are not > involved in any type of organisation-they are simply making sounds. If you > didn't know what it was going to sound like before you made it then you > can't possibly argue that there is a process of building going on that the > performer can take credit for. I have to take exception with this. I have played the guitar for over 20 years, and I'll tell you that whether composing or improvising, my experience has been precisely the opposite of what you describe above. The most profound and beautiful music is nearly always produced in those moments when you don't know what's going to come out. Who if not the performer should take credit for that music--I'm not sure. > Do people > seriously believe that years of paractice etc. only limit the creative > wonders of the human ear. No, I'd say that years of practice often go a long away toward opening the possibilities, either instrumentally, or in terms of the ear. Not necessarily, of course. There are plenty of well practiced players who simply recreate what they've practiced when they play, which is quite useful for classical musicians, but usually pretty uninspiring for improvisers. I think most musicians who've improvised would say that they're not completely in control of what comes out of their instrument, no matter how practiced they are. At least I feel sorry for the bored egomaniac who would claim otherwise. - -- shiurba@sfo.com http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba I don't wake up for less than $10,000 a day. (L. Evangelista) - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 16:39:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Ken Waxman Subject: Re: Michel Godard Godard is also on Misha Mengelberg's newest disk on hatology. Ken Waxman cj649@torfree.net - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:00:50 -0400 From: "Vanheumen, Robert" Subject: klezmer theory hi there i'm looking for a book to learn more about klezmer, that is to say, a book with things like scales, chords, typical klezmer patterns etc; just very dry stuff to practice (mmm)... now i found dozens of books with completely written out klezmer tunes, accompanied by chords, but that is not what i want... i'm just looking for a dry practice book. can anybody help me with a title? thanks very much. robert - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 14:06:59 -0700 From: Jeff Spirer Subject: Re: Praxis recommendation At 03:45 PM 8/18/98 -0400, Marc Downing wrote: >I would like to get a Praxis cd. It would be my first listening. Does >anyone have any recommendations? Start with _Transmutation_ on Axiom. But you may want to wait for the compilation CD coming out soon on Douglas. Jeff Spirer B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/ Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:09:19 -0700 From: dtapia@unoco.edu (Douglas Tapia) Subject: Re: Praxis recommendation >I would like to get a Praxis cd. It would be my first listening. Does >anyone have any recommendations? > >Marc I noticed that Joseph S. Zitt recomends _Transmutations Live_ I would say start with _Transmutations_ This is easy to find in the rock section filed under "P" It's a very funky album w/ Bootsie Collins and Bennie Worral on board. Great shreading from Buckethead. Brain holds it all together. Bill's production is typically "him". If you can find _Sacrifist_ used on CD pick it up. It's a great recording and is extremely raw. BTW, Zorn guests on this one. Happy listening, Doug - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 20:10:34 EDT From: Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #434 The MM Scofield-Hunter show should be very good. As for the new MMW album I think it has a place in their discography. If you like move and shake etc. Andrew - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 06:42:37 -0700 From: Trey Subject: Weird Little [NOTE FROM LIST-OWNER: The following message is from Trey Spruance, he is not a member of the zorn-list so if you want to include him in a discussion, please explicitly include his email address.] Hey, everybody. Look, I am NOT "ANTI-ZORN". In fact I have quite an affinity for John Zorn as a person. He has never "fucked me over" or been bad to me, we have not had a falling out. WLB was ONE faulty project that I, in retrospect (it came out 3 years after the fact) regret having participated in. Since I was there (at the recording), I felt that I could help people in ALT.NOISE avoid making a mistake. I voiced my opinion. It stands. No, I'm no Jazz Snob. Jesus, there's SO MUCH great music out there, and so little $$$ (for some of us, at least). Look, I could keep quiet and just go along with all this and get my little periodical handouts and back pats for participating in uninspired/uninspiring "sure sells"... You know, I've been involved with some of the best Goddamned Cobra/Xu Feng performances - improv is a hit-and miss-world and I definately accept that. But in those performances, every meandering moment of pure searching bullshit is justified by that one (maybe more) magical moment. In my opinion, WLB failed to produce anything anywhere near one even remotely worthwhile moment. It was carried only by extramusical motivations - such as cracking each other up... Noble, but it did'nt translate well onto recording. Can I be blamed as a musician who was INVOLVED if I feel some kind of duty as a musician, with people out there who follow what I do, to let those people know how I feel? To the shameless 'scene' apologists, could y'all at least just back off on the Gestapo-like defensiveness of anything Zorn-ular? I mean Jesus, I like the guys' music, OK? In my opinion his ability to inspire great performances in musicians is unparalleled, his compositional intuition is of the highest order, I'm in awe of his command over instrumentation and orchestration, he is very nice and congenial personally - I mean, gimme a break! The way I see it, besides the people whose critical thinking has been completely squelched by ridiculous over-zealousness, my only offense will be to the "completists". This, because I hate weak improv! And I especially hate being INVOLVED in weak improv. Many others (most of us) also hate weak improv. I have a right to warn people (non-completists, non-zealots) that WLB is just another a weak improv record. Trey - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:58:51 -0500 From: Rich Williams Subject: [Fwd: SONNY SHARROCK TRIBUTE@KNITTING FACTORY 8/23RE] Celebrating the Spirit of Sonny Sharrock An evening of music "Celebrating the Spirit of Sonny Sharrock" will be presented in the Knitting Factory's Main Space, 74 Leonard Street between Broadway and Church (six blocks below Canal), on Sunday, August 23rd, 1998 from 8:00 p.m. to midnight. The concert is a benefit for the Juvenile Diabetes Foundation. The community of players with whom Sonny Sharrock broke ground and carried the torch, alongside other players who have been greatly inspired by this innovative guitarist, will gather together for a passionate and heartfelt musical tribute. The evening will feature music that Sonny wrote and recorded over a thirty year span. The list of performers includes Sonny's bandmates Pheeroan akLaff, Lance Carter and Abe Speller (drums), Charles Baldwin, David C. Gross, and Charnett Moffett (bass), John Stubblefield (saxophone), Ted Daniel (trumpet), and several guitarists who have been deeply inspired by his life and music, including Jef Lee Johnson, Robert Musso, Elliott Sharp, Tor Snyder, and James Blood Ulmer. There will also be tributes by family and friends, special messages from such musicians as Roy Ayers, Peter Brotzmann, Ronald Shannon Jackson, and Herbie Mann, and rare video footage of Sonny in concert. Since making his distinctive mark in the early sixties alongside Don Cherry, Miles Davis, Pharoah Sanders, Wayne Shorter and others, Sonny has been an influence for generations of musicians. It was Sonny's desire to expand the vocabulary of the electric guitar and give it the range, tonality and textures that saxophonists such as Albert Ayler and John Coltrane explored through their instruments. Now, more than four years since his death, with his stature and influence continuing to grow, musicians are traveling to New York to offer a highly charged celebration of his musical innovations and his beautiful spirit. "Celebrating the Spirit of Sonny Sharrock" The Knitting Factory, 74 Leonard St. betw. Church St. & Broadway Sunday, August 23rd, 8-midnight Venue information 212-219-3006 x 417 - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 20:14:18 -0700 From: "Christian Heslop" Subject: Re: Weird Little I understand your sentiments exactly-there is a sort of integrity of purpose that separates some works from others. Anyone is capable of minor transgressions.Who hasn't horsed around a little.The WLB cd may be interesting for this fact alone.I don't think I will buy it though, there are too many other good works out there to ignore the opinion of a participant.I personally think that it takes a sort of nobility for you not to attempt to rationalize it at all but perhaps guilt drives you too far to criticize it.What Cobra sessions that you have participated in would you recommend? - ---------- > From: Trey > To: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Weird Little > Date: Monday, August 17, 1998 6:42 AM > > > [NOTE FROM LIST-OWNER: The following message is from > Trey Spruance, he is not a member of the zorn-list so > if you want to include him in a discussion, please > explicitly include his email address.] > > > Hey, everybody. > > Look, I am NOT "ANTI-ZORN". In fact I have quite an affinity for John Zorn as > a person. He has never "fucked me over" or been bad to me, we have not had a > falling out. WLB was ONE faulty project that I, in retrospect (it came out 3 > years after the fact) regret having participated in. > > Since I was there (at the recording), I felt that I could help people > in ALT.NOISE avoid making a mistake. I voiced my opinion. It stands. > > > No, I'm no Jazz Snob. Jesus, there's SO MUCH great music out there, and > so little $$$ (for some of us, at least). Look, I could keep quiet and just > go along with all this and get my little periodical handouts and back pats > for participating in uninspired/uninspiring "sure sells"... You know, I've > been involved with some of the best Goddamned Cobra/Xu Feng performances - - > improv is a hit-and miss-world and I definately accept that. But in those > performances, every meandering moment of pure searching bullshit is justified > by that one (maybe more) magical moment. In my opinion, WLB failed to produce > anything anywhere near one even remotely worthwhile moment. It was carried > only by extramusical motivations - such as cracking each other up... Noble, > but it did'nt translate well onto recording. Can I be blamed as a musician > who was INVOLVED if I feel some kind of duty as a musician, with people out > there who follow what I do, to let those people know how I feel? > > To the shameless 'scene' apologists, could y'all at least just back off on > the Gestapo-like defensiveness of anything Zorn-ular? I mean Jesus, I like > the guys' music, OK? In my opinion his ability to inspire great performances > in musicians is unparalleled, his compositional intuition is of the highest > order, I'm in awe of his command over instrumentation and orchestration, he > is very nice and congenial personally - I mean, gimme a break! The way I see > it, besides the people whose critical thinking has been completely squelched > by ridiculous over-zealousness, my only offense will be to the "completists". > This, because I hate weak improv! And I especially hate being INVOLVED in > weak improv. Many others (most of us) also hate weak improv. I have a right > to warn people (non-completists, non-zealots) that WLB is just another a weak > improv record. > > Trey > > > > > - - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #443 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com