From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #546 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Friday, December 4 1998 Volume 02 : Number 546 In this issue: - Re: Large vs. small stores Changed my mind Changed my mind Re: Large vs. small stores Re: Large vs. small stores Re: Wm. Parker Re: Large vs. small stores Re: Amazon.com's 100 best list Z'EV Small Stores, Big Stores, and Bootlegs Re: Large vs. small stores ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:36:24 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Waxman Subject: Re: Large vs. small stores On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Christian Heslop wrote: While the giants have picked up wandering markets. When I > bought Spillane from that Borders there was maybeone other CD of his there. > The following month when I returned, their stock of Zorn had doubled. So using straight math they then had *two* Zorn discs, or is that four? > By the way, I have never heard of either Marilyn Crispell or Oliver > Nelson. Does that disqualify me from working for minimum wage at a record > store? > Au contraire, it's probably the best recommendation you can have for working there. Seriously, I buy my CDs at *anywhere* that has the best prices and the best selection of what I want, be it mail order, *small* store or chain store. I found some deleted Ed Blackwell in the Tower bargain bin in New Orleans, bought Cecil Taylor's "Always A Pleasure" for 1/3 the chain store sticker price from mail order house Verge in Peterborough, Ontario. and always make a point of picking up discs they're selling when I see an artist live. (Fred Anderson could have moved a multitiude of CDs in Toornto last weekend if he had brought any along). Mass merchandising usually leads to bland sameness, unless a knowledgeable buyer slips through the web of monopoly capitalism. Ken Waxman cj649@torfree.net - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:59:16 EST From: DRoyko@aol.com Subject: Changed my mind After spitting out a list of classical composers as examples of composers who have done (at least some of ) their greatest work late in life as an argument countering Brian Olewnick's assertion that innovative musicians (and innovators in other disciplines) amost always do their most innovative work relatively early in life, I've come to realize that in fact most of those composers did come up with their major innovations earlier in life, ultimately developing and refining them to create their greatest works late in life. Beethoven might be the only one of those whose innovations continued to explode throughout his life, and if you have to resort to Beethoven to make a point, then that get's to be more of a situation of an exception proving the rule, since very few musicians of any era can come close to measuring up to a Beethoven (IMO IMO IMO! before we get back into that "Coltrane [Zorn Tristano Whomever] blows Beethoven away!!!" type of thread). I still find it interesting that in our era, the works of an artist's youth (whether Lennon/McCartney, Buddy DeFranco, Monk, Diz, Blakey, Miles, Shorter, Joe Henderson) is so often either superior to, or perceived as superior to, what they do later in life, which is generally the opposite of the traditional "classical" world. Dave Royko - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:59:28 EST From: DRoyko@aol.com Subject: Changed my mind After spitting out a list of classical composers as examples of composers who have done (at least some of ) their greatest work late in life as an argument countering Brian Olewnick's assertion that innovative musicians (and innovators in other disciplines) amost always do their most innovative work relatively early in life, I've come to realize that in fact most of those composers did come up with their major innovations earlier in life, ultimately developing and refining them to create their greatest works late in life. Beethoven might be the only one of those whose innovations continued to explode throughout his life, and if you have to resort to Beethoven to make a point, then that get's to be more of a situation of an exception proving the rule, since very few musicians of any era can come close to measuring up to a Beethoven (IMO IMO IMO! before we get back into that "Coltrane [Zorn Tristano Whomever] blows Beethoven away!!!" type of thread). I still find it interesting that in our era, the works of an artist's youth (whether Lennon/McCartney, Buddy DeFranco, Monk, Diz, Blakey, Miles, Shorter, Joe Henderson) is so often either superior to, or perceived as superior to, what they do later in life, which is generally the opposite of the traditional "classical" world. Dave Royko - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 10:38:30 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Martens Subject: Re: Large vs. small stores - ---Christian Heslop wrote: > I made the remark in a private e-mail that many of these large > chain book and record stores are using the income from larger volume > "stuff" to allow them to carry things that appeal to a smaller, more > discriminating audience. That is something that I admire. I don't know if I "admire" it -- I mean, I don't think there's any altruism behind it, it's still just another way for a bunch of suits to make $$$ -- but I'm certainly going to take advantage of it just b/c it's more convenient than like Amazon.com. == Eric Martens "When you said that I wasn't worth talking to, I had to take your word on that." -- Liz Phair _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 12:49:33 -0600 (CST) From: "Joseph S. Zitt" Subject: Re: Large vs. small stores On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Christian Heslop wrote: > When I > bought Spillane from that Borders there was maybeone other CD of his there. > The following month when I returned, their stock of Zorn had doubled. So they now had *two* Zorn CDs? Wow. :-) I find that I get most of my magazines at Borders, and most of my books either there or at Amazon. While DC has a lot of indie bookstores, I rarely find what I'm looking for in them. And the DC CD scene sux. (With the possible exception of DCCD, which has a good and remarkably inexpensive selection of local, often fringy CDs (made inexpensive by cutting their margins very slim on them, probably as an audience-attractor: for the CDs that we have in their on consignment, they've taken them at the same price as other stores, but are selling them for less than most).) I get a lot of CDs through people selling them via mailing lists, most often through postings here. I also recently ordered the Braxton Willisau over the Net from North Country, and followed a post here yesterday to TotalE, at which I used the online coupon to get CDs by Joelle Leandre and William Parker. I try to restrict my CD binging to stores in NYC when I get up there, getting my stuff mostly at DMG and Other Music. And, as many on this list know, DMG is the epitome of the small, informed CD shop: Bruce et al actively research, promote, and publicize what they carry. Several times recently, when friends have asked me for music recommendations, I've pointed them there, since they'll be able to turn people on to the right stuff. I also mail order a lot of stuff from them, and am drooling in anticipation of their Web site. I do buy a significant chunk of books at Borders, come to think of it, but i consider it worth it: the combination of the coffee bar and the good selection makes it an excellent reference library, so I actually use more of their books than I buy, so I don't mind *too* much making a purchase there every so often... - - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \| - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 13:52:02 -0500 From: Dan Given Subject: Re: Wm. Parker >Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:14:47 -0500 (EST) >From: Ken Waxman >Subject: Re: William Parker advice? >A few recommendations: > >Other Dimensions in Music "Now"(Aum Fidelity) --in quartet >w/ Little Huey Creative Music Orchestra "Flowers Grow In my Room" (Centering) >ditto "Sunrise In The Tone World" (Aum Fidelity) -both "out" big band >Roy Campbell Pyramid Trio "Ancestral Homeland" (No More) trumpet, bass >ands percussion >Dorgon & William Parker "9" (Jumbo) -- C-melody(!) sax and bass > >He also has done excellent sideman work with Ivo Perleman, Frank Lowe, >Cecil Taylor, Matt Shipp, David S. Ware etc. etc. > For some reason, no one has recommended my favorite places to hear Parker (outside of his own bands), which are: Brotzmann -Die Like a Dog, and the followup, Little Birds Have Fast Hearts Gayle- Touchin' On Trane, and any of the quartet albums with 2 basses (Consecration, Raining Fire, More Live At K.F, a couple of others) Also, I would recommend the solo disc Testimony. This is one of the best solo bass albums I've heard. Unlike others who do solo bass, Parker doesn't really play songs, he plays music, or more accurately, sound which he leaves up to the listener to interpret as music. Not easy listening, not even as accessible as the most out Little Huey stuff (Flowers Grow in My Room is my choice of the two), but great. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:34:48 -0800 From: "Christian Heslop" Subject: Re: Large vs. small stores > > The following month when I returned, their stock of Zorn had doubled. You said: > So using straight math they then had *two* Zorn discs, or is that four? Ouch! It was four. Yes you are right. I do have such problems with simple arithmetic. I really appreciate you clearing up my vague thoughts, as well as your generous act of sending that same clarification to everyone so that they too are relieved the mental pressure of sorting through my many terrible mistakes. When I said "stock" I thought that I was referring to *that which they usually carry*. I thought that was what "stock" meant. > > By the way, I have never heard of either Marilyn Crispell or Oliver > > Nelson. Does that disqualify me from working for minimum wage at a record > > store? > > You replied: > Au contraire, it's probably the best recommendation you can have for > working there. Well. You could have just told me who they were. I certainly didn't say that I wasn't interested. I don't work at a record store. My area of knowledge is quite distant from the realm of music. I am simply a music lover who is attempting to learn as much as I can. It is my failing that I never seem to know anything about musicians until I am first exposed to them. It is good to know that there are people like you out there who can help me with my handicaps. You said: > Mass merchandising usually leads to bland sameness, unless a knowledgeable > buyer slips through the web of monopoly capitalism. Yes. *Usually*. That is exactly the point that I thought I was making. If I remember correctly, I expressed surprise at a phenomenon that appeared to me to be occuring. I questioned the rest of the group as to whether or not they agreed. I think I already suggested that it was probably the work of a sympathetic buyer. I do not represent any of the businesses in question. I do not work in retail. I was suggesting that it wasn't entirely fair to expect teenagers employed at minimum wage to be amateur musicologists. Did I piss you off? You seem to have taken a strange tack on a group that is composed of people with similar tastes. Christian - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 14:58:08 -0500 From: Taylor McLaren Subject: Re: Amazon.com's 100 best list GNANG! Rick Lopez wrote: >Marks, Andy wrote: >> I find i strange that somebody >> mentioned they aren't too particular about where they buy stuff. >> How do other people feel about this? >If you're not particular about where you buy stuff, eventually you'll >have no "control" over what you have access to, because the chains >certainly do not care about "YOU". The *chains* don't, no, but the people who work at the chains are just as human as the folks who work at your local indie record stores, too, and there's no reason why you can't get to know them. No matter how many drug store/fast food/coffee shop chains you care to mention in taking a stand against big business, the fact remains that, if a big-ass store can get a single copy of a Zorn album on the racks, they have the distribution contacts to get more if you let them know that those copies will sell. Personally, I don't give a flying fuck about whether or not titles are restocked after I buy them; if I was able to buy a copy of a non-limited release and manage to turn somebody on to that particular artist or album after the fact, that person can go ahead and find a copy however they want... maybe even by asking somebody at the big, scary store where I bought my copy to order another one for them. Regardless of what the store is, if they don't have what I want when I want it, then my options are either to special-order it or to go somewhere else. If I'm not in a hurry to hear something, and the somewhere else in question is going to charge me an extra three or four bucks for the sake of being tiny, I might just wait and let the big-ass store throw their weight around for me. Also personally, I do almost all of my shopping by mail order or in a handful of tiny, independent stores around Toronto. In general, I've found that the people working for these businesses are more willing to figure out what I like, are more capable of making recommendations when I'm in the mood to try something new, and I generally get along with them better than I do with the generalists who work in big-ass stores. In the event that a much larger corporate entity was able to offer the same selection that I currently get from Penguin or Soleilmoon or Scratch, however, and save me more than a couple of bucks on every purchase, then I'd shop at the big-ass corporate store. >This is all a political question, isn't it? Wal-Mart kills local economies. Maybe not. While the profits that you envision being whisked away to a faraway land might very well end up buying an executive in another country a really nice house, the local Wal-Mart also employs a whole whack of people. If B&N and other chains genuinely expand to the point where they start to threaten niche markets as a category, then they're also going to need to hire almost as many people as those niche stores used to employ just to keep their shelves stocked and their sales staff from being run ragged. Besides, if a big-box store genuinely strip-mines a local economy to the point where every other person is out of work, that very same store suffers just as much as everybody else from reduced spending. ...all of which makes me wonder why the big chains are in such a hurry to become department stores, given how poorly most of the department stores that were a big deal fifty years ago have fared during the last decade or so. >I'll hunt down the knowledgable individual at the local record shop or >bookstore. I don't eat at mc'Donald's either. Congratulations. Neither do I, but that's more for health reasons (and a general distaste for the smell of McGrease) than because of a knee-jerk hatred of businesses based on size. Zorn did okay by Elektra, didn't he? - -me - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:09:39 EST From: Orangejazz@aol.com Subject: Z'EV I'm not completely sure, but hasn't Z'EV had a history with the famous industrial band, Psychic TV? - - matt - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:31:14 EST From: OnionPalac@aol.com Subject: Small Stores, Big Stores, and Bootlegs I grew up in a family who owns multiple independent businesses that circulate around our local area. From this experience I naturally think independent before I think corporate. In fact when I was younger (around 14-18) the word corporate seemed like it came from the devil. I have to say that I definitely agree on the argument that states the huge amount of caring, friendliness, knowledgeable, homelike, and other highly valuable qualities that spur from the local independant stores around my hometown (Bucks County, PA). I will admit to buying from Tower Records and Borders every now and then, but who cares? Anyway, my reason for speaking up refers to the bootleg sales in these independent record stores. The fact that you can go into a public store and purchase illegal and very hard to find items is, IMHO, fantastic. I do not know how you people feel about the issue. The hard to find items are always a pleasure to anyone but the bootleg tapes, records, videos, CDs, ect. raises a big debate amongst music lovers between those who say that the stores who carry them are ripping off the artists and causing them a lot of money; that these stores should be shut down or simply not carry these illegal items anymore, or the greedy people who collect this stuff (like myself) and feel that these stores are essential to our musical lifestyles. Let me add that a big record convention just passed through PA that emphasized on rare and bootlegged merchandise and the sellers whom I spoke with at the tables where making a mint off bootlegs, they sold copied videos of handheld recorded concerts for $25 - $35, recorded audio concert tapes sold for $5 - $10 each. These people are independent alright, but they sometimes get looked at as crack dealers by a few people. Anyone have any thoughts on this? - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:49:35 EST From: Cbwdeluxe1@aol.com Subject: Re: Large vs. small stores i feel a little bad that i started this big debate. the fact is that i work for borders and have for the past five years. i was just trying to point out that the last time i visited the web site there where around 60 titles listed to match "zorn." that said, the conversation has been interesting and maybe i should clarify a few things. what each store caries does vary depending on the market and the general buying trends of the public at that store. at my store we have 30 titles by zorn we regularly stock. when i checked we had sold at least one of each during the past year. not big money, but it does tell us that we should be carrying them because there is a local interest. as far as "big vs. small," it's like everything else, individual. i watched my dad loose his business as wal-mart took over small towns through practices that are quite frankly just plain illegal and immoral (remember kathy lee?). as for borders i hope that you notice that they support the community they are a part of, and if they don't then someone isn't doing there job. being part of the community means everything from carring local product, hanging posters for local shows, having local author signings that quite frankly don't make any money, to good old finnacial support for art's and community foundations. hopefully all these reasons are why the company is succesful. i'm not a corporate lacky, but i do believe in what i do professionally. - -cbw - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #546 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. 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