From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #609 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Friday, March 5 1999 Volume 02 : Number 609 In this issue: - Re: Bad CDs Re: Cd playing troubles Re: Bad CDs cd troubles-Carl Stalling Re: Cd playing troubles CD troubles -- CD players Re: CD troubles -- CD players Re: Bad CDs Re: Bad CDs Re: Bad CDs Re: Brotzmann/10tet Re: Bad CDs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 20:16:05 -0800 From: zoyd Subject: Re: Bad CDs Patrice sez: I grew up with vinyls and I am happy to get rid of them (as soon as I find the CD reissue). Yes I miss the larger sleeves, but I have no romantic feelings about vinyls. I sez: I agree Patrice. I, too grew up with vinyl and good riddance. Back in those days it seemed every tenth album i bought i was returning for one reason or another...it was warped, too much surface noise, the grooves weren't centered (check out the second side of the first roxy music album for this fine defect....). Not to mention the quick deterioation of the inner tracks..... I've bought over 1500 cds so far over 12 something years, both new and used and have yet to return one.... it's disconcerting about this PDO stuff (i have about a $1000 worth of PDO discs) but only one shows any signs of "bronzing". And so far no deteriotion in sound qualitiy on that one. It's nice that Philips is offering to replace these discs....but i bet they dont have an easy time finding a new copy of "Live at Bar Maldoror" by Current 93....sigh....not that they are gonna look that hard.... zoyd - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 22:36:10 -0600 From: fate@telepath.com (Jonathan Mooneyham) Subject: Re: Cd playing troubles >On Thu, 4 Mar 1999 SUGAR in their vitamins? > >> i have never had this problem w/cds. when they 1st came out i heard that cds >> were good 4 about 10 yrs. i have plenty of cds that r older than that >>and they >> play just fine. > >ditto. > >i only have one CD (out of hundreds) >that is causing me trouble and it's kind >of strange. the Carl Stalling Project >disc (volume 1) has been really troublesome >lately. i can reproduce it on two different >CD players and the CD ROM on my computer. >the first track plays ok, no problems, >but the rest are overcome by a clicking >sound that gets louder with each track. >and, i can't seem to thumb through tracks. >the CD player won't let me select track N >or even ff. it just sort of "hangs" there >(i can actually hear the disc stop spinning) >and won't play. the only way is to just >let it play straight through. it's really >very curious. the disc itself looks fine. >no scratches, no pin holes, no oxidization, >nothing. so i'm at a loss as to understand >why this is happening. anyone else have >the same experience with this disc? Yep, exactly the same problem (gorgeous 1st pressing Looney Tunes disc label), but it had it from the git-go - wouldn't play on certain machines. I think it's due to the running length of the cd - 77:53, a pretty stuffed disc, particularly for early '90s cd technology... > >as an aside, i remember when this disc >came out apparently the promo edition >(nicer looking disc label art) got into the >market. i suspect mine might be one of >those, but never really looked into it. > The snazzy disc label was first pressings only, AFAIK - WTF. I like how this thread managed to worm its way into some weentsy Zorn content (via JZ liner notes on CS cd)... Jon M. FATE, Discorporated - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 20:39:04 -0800 (PST) From: SUGAR in their vitamins? Subject: Re: Bad CDs On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, zoyd wrote: > deteriotion in sound qualitiy on that one. It's nice that Philips is > offering to replace these discs....but i bet they dont have an easy time > finding a new copy of "Live at Bar Maldoror" by Current > 93....sigh....not that they are gonna look that hard.... practically all Current 93 is in print, including "Live at Bar Maldoror". in fact, he has been re-issuing quite a bit of the back catalog over the last year. there shouldn't be a problem in replacing that disc. hasta. Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 23:28:59 -0800 From: Zorn Subject: cd troubles-Carl Stalling regarding the carl stalling project... i have the exact same problem with this disc.....also the only one out of hundreds....... odd.. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 22:04:29 -0800 (PST) From: SUGAR in their vitamins? Subject: Re: Cd playing troubles On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Jonathan Mooneyham wrote: > Yep, exactly the same problem (gorgeous 1st pressing Looney Tunes disc > label), but it had it from the git-go - wouldn't play on certain machines. > I think it's due to the running length of the cd - 77:53, a pretty stuffed > disc, particularly for early '90s cd technology... hmm, but Ryko's Mission of Burma collection (from 1988, this is before all those re-issues) disc is 80 minutes and have had no trouble with it. in fact i'm listening to it right now. > The snazzy disc label was first pressings only, AFAIK - WTF. it's such a shame about this clicking thing, because it is such a beautiful design. and, of course, the music is excellent too. this disc did play just fine when i first bought it all those years ago. hasta. Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 21:16:48 -0800 From: Martin_Wisckol@link.freedom.com (Martin Wisckol) Subject: CD troubles -- CD players I'm not a gearhead and have only a passing interest in these things. But the comment about getting cheap CD players and replacing them caught my eye because I've mostly just used CD walkmans on my system (currently low-end Nakamichi receiver and tape player, Infinity reference series speakers, and, the oldest component, my Pioneer turntable from 1977). This was because I read a long time ago that Cd players basically all sound the same. Most of you may know this already, but it's not true. I just bought a Harman/Kardon 5-CD changer (FL 8350) with 16-bit digital to analog technology. This is not high end, $280 on sale at Circuit City, but a step above the basic item. The difference is not minute, in certain places. It is dramatic from start to finish. Broader dynamic range, more dynamic bass and highs, better imagining. Much more lush and a real delight. (Although the loading mechanism is noisy.) And not only that. Prompted by another post on the subject of CD troubles, I just pulled out my Vasconcelos "Bush Dance" and popped it in. On my CD walkman, it stopped almost immediately since the missing flake was on the first cut -- it could not skip past that track (actually the first three tracks, it turns out). But with the Harman/Kardon, it never actually stops. It skips intolerably where the flakes are but I can punch it forward to the fourth track and then it plays just fine. Hurray! I've got two-thirds of this out-of-print disc back! I suspect I'll find the same with the other two (including a beloved Frank Lowe). Otherwise, I've had no problems with my 1,200 or so CDs (I had a stoned late-night freak out in Florida that they were all going to start flaking). No other aging problems. I have another 1,000 or so LPs, from pre- to early-CD era. And aside from the affection for the LP sleeves, I largely agree with PATRICE. LPs wear out and they have surface noise. The same gremlins that steal the odd sock and add to the pile of dirty dishes while I'm out sneak scratches onto my LPs -- last time I played LP X, it was beautiful through that quiet section. I carefully returned it to the inner sleeve and then the outer sleeve. Next time I slide it on the Pioneer, there's a big TCHK! ... TCHK!... TCHK!... I love my LPs but eagerly replace the most played ones with CDs when available. I know I should get a new turntable, there would be a dramatic difference, but for now I'd rather spend the money on CDs. ... As for the live music argument -- this ain't no argument. It's like comparing movies and live theater. Different mediums, different experiences, different functions. If John Zorn is in town, I'm not going to sit home and listen to one of his CDs. Recorded music is for those times there's no gig worth checking out, which accounts for more of the time. Recorded music is for your convenience. Always on hand. I'll sit (or dance) to live music I would never purchase. And the best live music, given the reasonable location for sound, tops the best recording of it beyond pure audio quality. For me, any way. Martin - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 22:36:23 -0800 (PST) From: SUGAR in their vitamins? Subject: Re: CD troubles -- CD players On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Martin Wisckol wrote: > Most of you may know this already, but it's not true. I just bought a > Harman/Kardon 5-CD changer (FL 8350) with 16-bit digital to analog > technology. This is not high end, $280 on sale at Circuit City, but a > step above the basic item. The difference is not minute, in certain > places. It is dramatic from start to finish. Broader dynamic range, > more dynamic bass and highs, better imagining. Much more lush and a > real delight. (Although the loading mechanism is noisy.) the interesting thing about this is i have a number of CD players --a cheapie portable and two deck units. both are considered in the mid-range for "audiophile". one is a Sony ES model and the other is a NAD. very nice players. both have trouble with this Stalling disc. it's a real mystery. but it's also true that some discs the portable flakes out on can be played with no troubel on these other players. vinyl vs. CD is a strange argument as they are practically apples and oranges. each has their own place and i like both. people who take an either-or stance generally give me the impression they view it like religion. whatEVER, it's just a medium. the MUSIC is what counts! hasta. Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:34:59 +0100 (MET) From: FJG_Lamerikx Subject: Re: Bad CDs Patrice wrote in reply to Bjoern: > I grew up with vinyls and I am happy to get rid of them (as soon as I find > the CD reissue). Yes I miss the larger sleeves, but I have no romantic > feelings about vinyls. [...] > You know, it is called manufacturing errors and it happens once in a > while. Buying a brand new (and expansive) LP import and realizing that > by playing it in store it was already scratched, this never happened to > you? And wobbly records, never seen one? And distorsion (specially in > the region closer to the center) after only 10 listenings, never > experienced it? > > Yes, digital technology has some imperfections, but you will have a > hard time to convince somebody that vinyl is the answer... > > > people get your old turntables in your living rooms again, that is the > > only chance...... > > Until nobody will be able to afford one... There are a number of reasons why I will favor vinyl: 1. I don't have any high-end equipment, and my Technics SL1200 turntable is easily the best piece of equipment I have - this means that vinyl in general sounds better on my equipment than CDs. 2. Some of the music I'm into is not available on CD, or only at a much later stage. Where are you going to find CD releases of all the techno, drum'n'bass and other dance-related 12"-es, for example? Besides, I think the CDS format is rather silly, so I'd prefer to buy vinyl 12"-es any day. 3. Some of the old music I'm trying to find has not been re-issued on CD. Ever saw a CD release of Les Baxter's "The Dunwich Horror" (I'm hoping that someone now gives me the catalogue number for the CD re-issue...)? Record labels are catching up, but this has only started a few years ago. 4. A lot of CD re-issues sound terrible, especially when compared to the vinyl originals. This is especially true of the late 80s - early 90s re-issues. Re-issues of the old James Bond soundtracks, for example, are horrible, both in sound and in packaging. What greater delight than to track down an original James Bond soundtrack from the 1960s? 5. Some of the artists I'm interested in (Diskono, V/Vm, audio.nl) won't release anything on CD. So if I got rid of my turntable I wouldn't be able at all to enjoy their music. 6. In general, vinyl is cheaper than CDs (at least here in Holland it is). 7. The esthetics of vinyl and all that surrounds it are far more attractive than the non-existing esthetics of CDs. 8. I'm a DJ every now and then, and I would have a hard time if I had to stick to CDs for this. For example, I can find all these old disco records which I use as DJ tools very cheaply on flea markets - now, I could also just put on a CD sampler of disco music, but where's the creativity in that? The interest in vinyl is increasing again. This explains why Columbia releases all the Miles Davis and Herbie Hancock stuff on excellent and very cheap vinyl editions, and Blue Note does the same for their 60s catalogue. The bins in the dance department of my local record store are bursting with new vinyl every week. I'll stick to it as long as I can! Frankco. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 02:58:39 EST From: Sulacco@aol.com Subject: Re: Bad CDs In a message dated 3/5/99 2:37:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, flamerik@best.ms.philips.com writes: > A lot of CD re-issues sound terrible, especially when compared to the vinyl > originals. This is especially true of the late 80s - early 90s re- issues. this is most likely due 2 the mastering techniques used on the recording. back in the day when vinyl was king, mastering was an artform. track order had 2 b planned out carefully and eq was regarded in terms of the fidelity of the systems of the day. now the sources 4 mastering r primarily digital (although i know @ least 1 dinosaur jr record was mastered from cassette) and for eq its basically "boost @ 100 hz, boost @ 10khz, next!" so if something was mastered for vinyl, it makes sense that as a cd it would not sound as good as a cd that was matered 2 b a cd. most of this doesn't really matter tho cuz we all know john zorn kicks ass (token zorn content). - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:41:43 +0100 (MET) From: BJOERN Subject: Re: Bad CDs PATRICE wrote: > I grew up with vinyls and I am happy to get rid of them (as soon as I find > the CD reissue). Yes I miss the larger sleeves, but I have no romantic > feelings about vinyls. well, this is a discussion i had with alot of "older" people who grew up with vinyl. BUT: nowadays there are lots of better turntables than 20 years ago. nowadays people know alot more about how to handle an LP to have it for a lifetime. there is still the easy technology of washing your vinyl which in most cases shows excellent results. there are alot of LPs i would never ever replace by a cd. for example the new rerelease of ERIC DOLPHY`s OUT TO LUNCH sounds so much better than the cd version......you will never ever listen to that cd again when you heard this new LP-version. i think this "i have no romantic feelings about vinyl" thing is just an aspect of what you call "blind believing in new technologies", even if in the end there are enough reasons not to believe in that technology... do not misunderstand me. i am far from saying that cd sucks and lp is heaven...but: i dont believe in the idea of replacing all the lps by cds whenever releases are available. i think it has to be judged from case to case... there are alot of old lps that sound way better than the new rereleases, so sure i buy the lps. there are also cds that sound better than the lps (not many but quite a few) and sure i buy these on cd, also there is alot of stuff you will never ever get as an lp or that has never been out on lp (tzadik stuff, just as an example)..sure i get these on cd.... i think that a mixed system of media is the best problem to solve the problem. at least in the end (in 15 years) after all the cds you bought nowadays are dead and gone, you will have some nice, maybe a bit noisy vinyls left. BJOERN - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 07:49:37 -0600 (CST) From: Ronald Martin Carrier Subject: Re: Brotzmann/10tet Caleb Deupree inquired: > At 11:25 AM 3/4/99 -0500, Jason Caulfield Bivins wrote: > >Brotz is doing some shows with the 10tet in May. I know that they're > >playing Victoriaville and also Chicago's Empty Bottle Fest (where he's > >also playing with Die Like A Dog). I'm pretty sure the lineup is the > >same, the one exception being that Toshinori Kondo is taking McPhee's > >spot. > > Any online info (schedules, etc.) about the Empty Bottle Festival? http://www.emptybottle.com/jazz/jfest99.html Later... - -- Ronald M. Carrier -- rcarrier@{suba.com,hecky.acns.nwu.edu} http://www.suba.com/~rcarrier/ "If one does nothing but listen to the new music, everything else drifts, goes away, frays."--Donald Barthelme - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:03:12 -0700 From: dennis summers Subject: Re: Bad CDs >You know, it is called manufacturing errors and it happens once in a >while. Buying a brand new (and expansive) LP import and realizing that >by playing it in store it was already scratched, this never happened to >you? And wobbly records, never seen one? And distorsion (specially in >the region closer to the center) after only 10 listenings, never >experienced it? > >Yes, digital technology has some imperfections, but you will have a >hard time to convince somebody that vinyl is the answer... > >> people get your old turntables in your living rooms again, that is the >> only chance...... > >Until nobody will be able to afford one... > > Patrice. Look, by no means am I saying that vinyl is not without it's own set of problems. I recently bought one of the Coltrane re-releases on "special" vinyl only to find it filled with pops, and unable to return as I bought it on an out of town trip. And I'd have to say that in general I have less problems with new CDs. However, that given, I have done blind sound comparisons between the same disc as both CD and vinyl, only and consistently to find that the vinyl sounds better. Furthermore, as someone who spends far too much money on music, (and having done so for many, many years) I want to know that I'll be able to listen to the purchase 10, 20 years down the road. And I'm sceptical that I'm going to be able to do this. The original poster to this thread (whose name I seem to have misplaced, sorry) is by no means the only person with this problem. I have more than one friend who now has bad CDs. I think the only reason I've lucked out as much as I have, is that I held on to buying vinyl, until literally, I had no choice. I even went to Landmark records offices in Berkely once on a trip there to pick up a vinyl Charlie Rouse record, a decision I don't regret. (I also got to chat with Orrin Keepnews which was kind of cool). And as I mentioned in the previous post, the whole "cost scam" has me incensed. Has anyone heard what happened to that suit that somebody started against the industry a few years back alleging price-fixing? yours in zornocity --ds ***Quantum Dance Works*** ****http://ic.net/~denniss**** - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #609 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. 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