From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #766 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Wednesday, October 6 1999 Volume 02 : Number 766 In this issue: - Re: more on the times Re: Request - help in contacting AVANT recodrs Re: Request - help in contacting AVANT recodrs tired of what the times thinks, but... Re: more on the times more FMP news SAL SALVADOR Re: more on the times ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:28:27 -0400 From: philz Subject: Re: more on the times - --============_-1272959971==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable kurt_gottschalk@scni.com wrote: >Sunday and Monday I was just angry at a newspaper article that=20 >missed the point >of music I love. But today, especially after reading Steve's=20 >comments, I really >feel sick. I know many of the musicians on the "scene" and am not=20 >close friends >with any, so it gives me a vantage to look at what articles like=20 >this can do. I >mean, Zorn's pretty big and pretty secure in his career, and I think he can >weather the storm of having been insulted and shredded in what could=20 >be seen as >an anti-Semetic article if you get down to it (other folks can dabble in >whatever ethnic musics they want, the piece seems to say, but Jews have a >special obligation to represent their own culture in a certain way -- even = if >that way is never stated). I must be incredibly thick, but I don't understand the reaction to=20 this article. Not that I particularly like the article, it's as good=20 or bad as any article that attempt to generalize two artists careers=20 and motivations on one page, but where is the insult, the=20 misrepresentation? Is it paragraphs like: "When Zorn performs with his free jazz band Masada at a synagogue on=20 the Lower East Side, or when the Brazilian-reared Lindsay sings in=20 Portuguese before an audience of samba fans and Brazilian =E9migr=E9s,=20 there is an almost palpable feeling of intimacy among strangers, of=20 community, that goes beyond esthetic pleasure. Such music reflects an=20 effort to provide audiences with a home in the world, a coherent=20 sense of place in a musical scene that has grown bewilderingly=20 global. " >I'm not sure what the point is here -- that the press is powerful, and used >incorrectly that power can be harmful? =2E.. >(why call Ibarra the best drummer on the >scene, for example? Why can't she just be "one of the best"? Journalism 101= : >anytime you say best, biggest, tallest, tiniest, most advanced, first, last= , >etc., someone will take exception), some people are bound to start=20 >taking sides. >It wouldn't surprise me to start hearing some musicians and/or=20 >audience members >now adopt the "Zorn isn't Jewish enough" NYTimes stance, which is such a >meaningless statement it's absurd to even call it misinformed. Huh? What harmful power is there in spreading the word about two=20 musicians? I saw nothing criticizing Zorn or Lindsay, and in fact=20 they're described as two of the savviest of the downtown crew. The=20 comments on the shifts in the village, the changes to the Knitting=20 =46actory, the growing interest in Jewish history and music, all this=20 seems reasonably accurate given the scope of the article. Am I reading the wrong article??? philz - --============_-1272959971==_ma============ Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable kurt_gottschalk@scni.com wrote: Sunday and Monday I was just angry at a newspaper article that missed the point of music I love. But today, especially after reading Steve's comments, I really feel sick. I know many of the musicians on the "scene" and am not close friends with any, so it gives me a vantage to look at what articles like this can do. I mean, Zorn's pretty big and pretty secure in his career, and I think he can weather the storm of having been insulted and shredded in what could be seen as an anti-Semetic article if you get down to it (other folks can dabble in whatever ethnic musics they want, the piece seems to say, but Jews have a special obligation to represent their own culture in a certain way -- even if that way is never stated).=20 I must be incredibly thick, but I don't understand the reaction to this article. Not that I particularly like the article, it's as good or bad as any article that attempt to generalize two artists careers and motivations on one page, but where is the insult, the misrepresentation? Is it paragraphs like: Arial"When Zorn performs with his free jazz band Masada at a synagogue on the Lower East Side, or when the Brazilian-reared Lindsay sings in Portuguese before an audience of samba fans and Brazilian =E9migr=E9s, there is an almost palpable feeling of intimacy among strangers, of community, that goes beyond esthetic pleasure. Such music reflects an effort to provide audiences with a home in the world, a coherent sense of place in a musical scene that has grown bewilderingly global. " I'm not sure what the point is here -- that the press is powerful, and used incorrectly that power can be harmful? ... (why call Ibarra the best drummer on the scene, for example? Why can't she just be "one of the best"? Journalism 101: anytime you say best, biggest, tallest, tiniest, most advanced, first, last, etc., someone will take exception), some people are bound to start taking sides. It wouldn't surprise me to start hearing some musicians and/or audience members now adopt the "Zorn isn't Jewish enough" NYTimes stance, which is such a meaningless statement it's absurd to even call it misinformed. Huh? What harmful power is there in spreading the word about two musicians? I saw nothing criticizing Zorn or Lindsay, and in fact they're described as two of the savviest of the downtown crew. The comments on the shifts in the village, the changes to the Knitting =46actory, the growing interest in Jewish history and music, all this seems reasonably accurate given the scope of the article. Am I reading the wrong article??? philz - --============_-1272959971==_ma============-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 18:19:17 -0600 From: nickmc@home.com Subject: Re: Request - help in contacting AVANT recodrs I would definately reccomend Radio, many consider it one of naked city's best albums, absinth is naked city's ambient work, while grand guignol is a peice of music dedicated to the horror house grand guignol, there is also some classical works undertaken by NC on this album. (although I'll remind you, it contains all of torture garden on the second half) and lastly Heretic is a series of duets and trio's that members of naked city perform in, they is only 1 or 2 full band songs. This was john's effort at scoring for an japanese S&M movie. The order I bought them in was 1.torture garden 2.Grand guignol 3.Absinth 4.Radio 5.Heretic and I rate them this way 4.,5.,2.,1.,3, Hope that gives you a little reccomendation cheers Nick McCormick Bruno wrote: > > Hallo Zorn-heads > > just a quick coupla questions - I've been a bit of a Zorn fan for a while > now, and I'm looking to track down a few more of the Naked City albums. From > hitting the Zorn discog, it looks like the "Avant" label have a lot of the > stuff I'm after - so the questions are: > > 1. does anybody know how to contact Avant records (an e-mail or WWW would be > nice) - I've tried to get local record stores to track them down, but they > have NO idea > 2. any reccomendations for "the" Naked City albums to track down - I have > "Torture Garden" & "Naked City" - are they all genius? any better than > others? > > Thanks.... > > u-no > > *********************************************************** > > Raimondo.Bruno@utas.edu.au > School of Psychology, University of Tasmania > GPO Box 252-30, Hobart, Tasmania 7001. > ph: (03) 62 26 7664 > Mob: 0409 211 347 > Fax: (03) 62 26 2883 > http://come.to/u-no > > *********************************************************** > > - - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 20:37:28 -0400 From: "Caleb T. Deupree" Subject: Re: Request - help in contacting AVANT recodrs At 09:24 AM 10/6/99 +1100, Bruno wrote: > >1. does anybody know how to contact Avant records (an e-mail or WWW would be >nice) - I've tried to get local record stores to track them down, but they >have NO idea No known website for avant specifically, but many of the better online places stock them, including (at least) Forced Exposure and DMG. >2. any reccomendations for "the" Naked City albums to track down - I have >"Torture Garden" & "Naked City" - are they all genius? any better than >others? Yes they're all genius. Absinthe is the 'ambient' one, Radio is smaller groupings, Leng T'che is one long (30 min) and very intense piece (and probably only available as part of the Torture Garden set on Tzadik at this point), Grand Guignol is classical music (Messiaen, Lassus, Ives, Scriabin) plus more like TG, and Heretic is more like rock. Just get them all. - -- Caleb Deupree cdeupree@erinet.com It is pretty obvious that the debasement of the human mind caused by a constant flow of fraudulent advertising is no trivial thing. There is more than one way to conquer a country. - -- Raymond Chandler - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Oct 99 19:39:18 -0500 From: kurt_gottschalk@scni.com Subject: tired of what the times thinks, but... Scott, your comments are interesting, and I basically agree. What you might have missed is that I said "the piece seems to say." I wouldn't put unique strictures on Jewish artists (although some cultures contain histories which can be dramatically used if an artist so chooses). The Times piece seems to want to hold Zorn responsible for something more than an African American playing klezmer, a Polish Jew playing son or the son of an American missionary appropriating samba. Zorn, because his background matches his stylings, is deemed kitschier than Don Byron holding a rubber chicken. np: The Jam "Start!" >From: kurt_gottschalk@scni.com other folks can dabble in >whatever ethnic musics they want, the piece seems to say, but Jews have a >special obligation to represent their own culture in a certain way -- even >if >that way is never stated Kurt, pardon if I took your comments out of context, or missed something, but what makes you think this? - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 00:42:25 -0400 From: Steve Smith Subject: Re: more on the times philz wrote: > I must be incredibly thick, but I don't understand the reaction to this article. Not that I particularly like the article, it's as good or bad as any article that attempt to generalize two artists careers and motivations on one page, but where is the insult, the misrepresentation? Well, let's see. Consider the following (with my points of emphasis set apart with asterisks): "The prime architects of the new sensibility are Mr. Zorn, *who now considers himself a Jewish composer*..." "It is unclear what led Mr. Zorn, a secular Jew from Queens, to his awakening. In interviews, he has *spoken vaguely of getting hostile looks in Germany and of his father's death.*" "The titles of his compositions *often evoke Jewish victimhood*..." "*Until Mr. Zorn discovered klezmer,* the only jazz musician to show much interest in Eastern European soul was the black clarinetist Don Byron." "Recently, Mr. Zorn has spoken *in almost hallucinatory tones* about what it means to be Jewish in America." "Mr. Zorn is *committed to the idea of Jews as an eternal pariah class*..." "It may be that for Mr. Zorn, Jewishness answers a deeply felt desire - a desire not to be a white jazz musician. *By invoking his own history of oppression, he can assert his right to play the blues*, without the racial envy that often burdens white musicians." Is that enough to illustrate what Kurt was saying? Those are my own major points of disturbance, as well as those of many others with whom I've spoken (and yes, the debate carries on today as lively as yesterday and the day before - this is probably the most talked-about music article in the Times in months if not years. Would that it were being talked about for positive reasons...). Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com NP - Haunted House, "Only When You Sleep," 'Up in Flames' (Erstwhile) - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 00:51:50 EDT From: JonAbbey2@aol.com Subject: more FMP news well, it seems as if only two of the three titles I posted about recently ar= e=20 actually currently available. these are: - ------------------------------------------------------------- FMP CD 103=A0=A0DIGGER'S HARVEST - Alexander von Schlippenbach + Tony Oxley=20 Alexander von Schlippenbach: piano Tony Oxley: drums Recorded November 1998, Berlin (78:00)=20 FMP CD 104=A0=A0MELANCHOLY - Cecil Taylor Workshop Ensemble=20 Tobia Netta: trumpet Wolfgang Fuchs: sopranino saxophone, bass clarinet Harry Sj=F6str=F6m: soprano saxophone Volker Schlott: alto saxophone Evan Parker: soprano + tenor saxophones Thomas Klemm: tenor saxophone J=F6rge Huke: trombone Thomas Wiedermann: trombone Cecil Taylor: piano Barry Guy: bass Tony Oxley: drums Recorded September 1990, Berlin (70:00)=20 - ------------------------------------------------------ so we'll have to wait a bit longer for the first Evan=20 Parker/Schlippenbach/Lovens record in 8 years. but check out what else FMP=20 has planned for their next set of releases: FMP CD 102=A0=A0BASS DUETS - Peter Kowald with...=20 Peter Kowald: bass Barre Phillips: bass Maarten Altena: bass Barry Guy: bass Recorded March 1979, Berlin; March 1982, Berlin; October 1984, Berlin (79:00= ) (original issue FMP 0680, 0960, 0990)=20 FMP CD 106:=A0=A0COMPLETE COMBUSTION - Schlippenbach Trio=20 Evan Parker: soprano + tenor saxophones Alexander von Schlippenbach: piano Paul Lovens: drums + percussion Recorded April 1998, Berlin (75:00)=20 FMP CD 107:=A0=A03 POINTS AND A MOUNTAIN, PLUS... - Br=F6tzmann/Mengelberg/B= ennink=20 Peter Br=F6tzmann: saxophones + clarinets, piano Misha Mengelberg: piano, voice Han Bennink: drums, viola, tenor saxophone Recorded February 1979, Berlin (77:00) (original issue FMP 0670)=20 FMP CD 108=A0=A0NAILED - C.T.: The Quartet=20 Tobia Netta: trumpet Evan Parker: soprano + tenor saxophones Cecil Taylor: piano Barry Guy: bass Tony Oxley: drums Recorded September 1990, Berlin (78:00)=20 - -------------------------------------------------- pretty promising stuff. what a lineup on that Cecil CD. Jon www.erstwhilerecords.com NP: Mets-Diamondbacks tied in the 6th - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 08:45:27 EDT From: Nvinokur@aol.com Subject: SAL SALVADOR BEBOP GUITARIST, JAZZ EDUCATOR SAL SALVADOR DIES AT 73 Sal Salvador, the guitarist whose over 50-year career included important stints with Stan Kenton, as well as important university music posts, died Sept. 22. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 07:59:20 -0400 From: philz Subject: Re: more on the times steve smith explained: >philz wrote: > > > I must be incredibly thick, but I don't understand the reaction >to this article. Not that I particularly like the article, it's as >good or bad as any article that attempt to generalize two artists >careers and motivations on one page, but where is the insult, the >misrepresentation? > >Well, let's see. Consider the following (with my points of emphasis >set apart with asterisks): > >"The prime architects of the new sensibility are Mr. Zorn, *who now >considers himself a Jewish composer*..." But isn't he? Why else would he do pieces like Kristalnacht, or make a band like Masada? He has emphasized his culture so that I can't personally help but think of him in those terms, at least partially (of course I think of bird calls when I think of Zorn as well, but I've been following him for over 10 years now). Zorn has brought more pride to his culture (imho) than any other "Jewish composer" that I can think of. Is this really an insult? >"It is unclear what led Mr. Zorn, a secular Jew from Queens, to his >awakening. In interviews, he has *spoken vaguely of getting hostile >looks in Germany and of his father's death.*" > >"The titles of his compositions *often evoke Jewish victimhood*..." Like Kristalnacht? I stood packed in a dark room in the old Knitting Factory assaulted by the sounds of that piece and understood a piece of the Holocaust that I might not have otherwise understood... is this comment really inaccurate? >"*Until Mr. Zorn discovered klezmer,* the only jazz musician to show >much interest in Eastern European soul was the black clarinetist Don >Byron." This sounds like usual bombastic inaccurate writing overgeneralizing... >"Recently, Mr. Zorn has spoken *in almost hallucinatory tones* about >what it means to be Jewish in America." This sounds like the writer's attempt to add color and imagery to his article... much of what I talk about my coworkers probably find hallucinatory (but maybe that's 'cause I smoke too much :) >"Mr. Zorn is *committed to the idea of Jews as an eternal pariah class*..." > >"It may be that for Mr. Zorn, Jewishness answers a deeply felt >desire - a desire not to be a white jazz musician. *By invoking his >own history of oppression, he can assert his right to play the >blues*, without the racial envy that often burdens white musicians." OK, this unbased speculation is probably the most offensive thing in the article, but I really don't think the writer was attempting to misrepresent Zorn, just place him inside the growing emphasis on Jewish culture that Zorn has cultivated. Clearly it's only a piece of the Zorn puzzle, which is the writer's major mistake, but it is the most obvious attribute of Zorn to anyone who hasn't followed his music closely. The writer did start the article distancing Zorn from jazz musicians, so this is only stupidly attempting to keep the tone of the article, as dumb as the comment is. But, can Zorn or anyone be that surprised that the media is picking up on the Jewish angle? Isn't that somewhat the idea, to draw attention to the Jewish plight? I get the impression that some are upset that the media actually noticed some part of what Zorn is up to. So what if Zorn is identified with Jewish culture? - He's been responsible for the Radical Jewish Culture series and has promoted Jewish artists where possible. >Is that enough to illustrate what Kurt was saying? Those are my own >major points of disturbance, as well as those of many others with >whom I've spoken (and yes, the debate carries on today as lively as >yesterday and the day before - this is probably the most >talked-about music article in the Times in months if not years. >Would that it were being talked about for positive reasons...). Well, better leave me in the dark, I still find the article, even with the comments illustrated above, generally positive and inoffensive. It focuses attention on the artists involved and on some of their personal interests. It of course misses the mark, but that's why I don't read much about music anymore in general, and why I don't take anything written too literally. I think the arguments against it are over-sensitive and thin-skinned, but that's my opinion. philz - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #766 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. 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