From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #957 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Tuesday, June 6 2000 Volume 02 : Number 957 In this issue: - Re: Verbatim Max Roach & Cecil Taylor/Baron & Ron Carter/David S. Ware, etc. Re: artists and self-estimation Jazz Satellites Volume II Re: Verbatim Re: Verbatim (, Flesh and Blood) Re: artists and self-estimation Re: Bach/Caine notation (was artists and self-estimation) Odp: artists and self-estimation Odp: artists and self-estimation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:44:18 +1000 From: "Julian" Subject: Re: Verbatim > I've had Verbatim for about a year now, and every time I put the track "Oxblood" on a > mix, it inevitably causes beatific consternation among the recipients...I don't have any of > the companion albums, but the I love the modified voice sounds as much as John > Giorno's and they are much creepier. Just wondering, how many were there in the series? I think there may have been 4 but I could be wrong... Come to think of it, isn't Verbatim the third, after Say No More and Say No More In Person? - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 01:14:46 EDT From: Drivymovie@aol.com Subject: Max Roach & Cecil Taylor/Baron & Ron Carter/David S. Ware, etc. Anyone have any comments about the duo performances from Taylor & Roach or Baron & Carter (I'm especially interested in hearing how this one went!). I was really bummed out that I had to miss this, so please fill me in on the details. Thanks! - -Evan - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 02:20:41 EDT From: Eisenbeil@aol.com Subject: Re: artists and self-estimation In a message dated 6/5/00 3:38:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, M_WIRZBICKI@ColoradoCollege.edu writes: << >>Well, considering that Western "classical" and "jazz" musics are among >>the only musics in which harmonic movement is a significant factor... <<>> Why do you believe that intervals are an irrelevant concept in world musics? The distance between 2 pitches can be assessed in any music. With regard to counterpoint, if there is more than one voice happening at any given time then counterpoint exists. There are only 4 types of movement: contrary, oblique, parallel and similar. Any 2 or more voices or instruments in any culture exhibit this behavior, no? I am taking the time to explore this discussion with you and others because I truly wish to understand other peoples perception of musical experiance. There is a lot of music I have not heard and I look forward to getting turned onto music that challanges my sense of order and reality. <<< We can write gamelan music or talk about the music in africa or even notate that music, but the scope of understanding that our system of notation and our cherished western music vocabulary offers does not begin to help us understand how the music is heard by the people who make it...the people who understand that musical language.>>> These are 2 mutually exclusive concepts. To notate or transcribe any expression is just to notate the expression. To notate is not to illuminate the thought process behind the expression. This is an area of philosophy or psychology. <<>> Here we go again, what do you mean by superflous or genuine? <<>> Is LMC the initials for Loren Mazzacane Conners in your question above? His is the only music of the 3 above mentioned composers that I have heard. Never heard his records, only 2 live shows. >>> <<< I do think that analysis is extreemly interesting, but I'm not sure it's the most effective tool to separate artistic success from failure.>>> It seems to me that only the composer can judge if the piece is a success or failure. Afterall , isn't it a success if the music reflects the composers intent? Which brings me around to a point , which I believe is the main reason all of these kinds of questions are asked and that is, "What is the composers intention?" "Why does the composer or the musician write or play what they do?" Peace and best wishes, Bruce www.eisenbeil.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:54:48 +0000 From: Simon Hopkins Subject: Jazz Satellites Volume II Some time back, there were a few enquiries about the proposed tracklisting for the 3CD volume 2 of Kevin Martin's 'Jazz Satellites' compilation, a project sadly dropped by Virgin Records, UK, following my departure. Well, I finally got the listing out of Kevin, and here it is. Read it and weep. As some consolation, here at motion ( http://motion.state51.co.uk ) we're looking at putting this together as a 'radio' show. I'll keep you posted. Cheers Simon DISK 1 George Russell - 'Events I-Vii' from 'Electronic Sonata For Souls Loved By Nature' (Soul Note) 1968 Julien Priester Pepo Mtoto- 'Love,Love' from 'Love,Love' (ECM) 1974 Carl Craig & the Innerzone Orchestra - 'Bug In The Bassbin'(Jazz Mix) (Mowax/A&M) 1996 Terumasa Hino - 'Aboriginal' from 'Double Rainbow' (Sony Japan) 1976 Bisk - 'Convergence' from 'Strange of Funny Ha Ha ?' (Sub Rosa) 1997 DISK 2 Sonny Sharrock - 'Many Mansions' from 'Ask the Ages' (Axiom) Pat Martino - 'Baiyina' from 'Baiyina - The Clear Evidence' (Prestige) Mahavishnu Orchestra/John Mclaughlin - 'Miles Out' from 'Inner Worlds'(Columbia Jazz) AMM - 'Convergence' from 'It had been an ordinary enough day in Pueblo,Colorado' (ECM) 1980 Peter Brotzmann/Bill Laswell - 'Locomotive' from 'Low Life' (Celluloid) Contraband - 'The One Who Knows' from 'Time & Space'(Epic/CBS) John Fahey - 'The Mill Pond' from 'Blind Joe Death' (Tim/Kerr Records) 1997 Masayuki Takayanagi - 'What have we given it' (April Disk) 1975 Ray Russell Quartet - 'A Day in the Life of a Slave in Lower Egypt' from 'Turn Circle' (CBS) 1968 Caspar Brotzmann/FM Einheit - 'Nizzary' from 'Merry Christmas' (Rough Trade Deutschland/Blast First) 1994 DISK 3 Yusef Lateef - 'Sound Wave' from 'Reevaluations:The Impulse Years' (Impulse) Charlie Mariano - 'Madras' from 'Mirror' (Atlantic) 1972 Joe Zawinul - 'Arrival in New York' from 'Zawinul' (Atlantic) 1971 Chris Bowden - ' Life Support' from 'Time Capsule' (Soul Jazz) 1996 Howard Shore / Ornette Coleman - 'Interzone Suite' from 'Naked Lunch - music from the original soundtrack' (Milan) 1992 Marc Moulin - 'Tohubohu' from 'Sam Suffy' (Counterpoint Records) 1996 The Art Ensemble of Chicago - 'Tnoona' from 'Fanfare For The Warriors' (Atlantic Records) 1974 Jigen - 'Appearance' from 'Soliloquy of Chaos'(Shi-ra-nui) 1997 John Coltrane - 'Living Space' from 'Infinity' (Impulse/MCA) 1965/1993 Pharoah Sanders - 'Village of the Pharoahs Pt.1' from 'Village of the Pharoahs' (ABC/Impulse) Quincy Jones - 'The Lost Man' from 'The Lost Man' (Universal/MCA) Charles Earland - 'Grasshopper' from the soundtrack to 'The Dynamite Brothers'(Prestige) 1973 Marion Brown - 'Sweet Earth Flying Pt.3' from "Sweet Earth Flying'(ABC/Impulse) 1974 - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 07:22:55 -0700 From: Daryl Loomis Subject: Re: Verbatim >>Just wondering, how many were there in the series? I think there >>may have been 4 but I could be wrong... >>Come to think of it, isn't Verbatim the third, after Say No More and >>Say No More In Person? According to the notes, Verbatim is the third in the series of four. "Say No More" is in the studio, "Say No More in Person" is the live version of the former. "Verbatim" is, again, in the studio, and then the fourth is live to complete the series. Ostertag says that the album is forthcoming, but that was as of 1996, so I don't know if it was ever released. Daryl Loomis - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 07:45:44 -0700 From: William Crump Subject: Re: Verbatim (, Flesh and Blood) The fourth part, "Verbatim, Flesh and Blood," is out now. I picked it up at Amoeba in Berkeley a couple of weeks ago. I only have the first and fourth in the series, and can't wait to get the other two to find out how the hell Ostertag got from point A to point B. (or D, or Z...) Totally cool. William Crump Daryl Loomis wrote: > >>Just wondering, how many were there in the series? I think there >>may have been 4 but I could be wrong... > > >>Come to think of it, isn't Verbatim the third, after Say No More and >>Say No More In Person? > > According to the notes, Verbatim is the third in the series of four. "Say No More" is in the studio, "Say No More in Person" is the live version of the former. "Verbatim" is, again, in the studio, and then the fourth is live to complete the series. Ostertag says that the album is forthcoming, but that was as of 1996, so I don't know if it was ever released. > > Daryl Loomis > > > - - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:30:51 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: artists and self-estimation On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 02:20:41AM -0400, Eisenbeil@aol.com wrote: > These are 2 mutually exclusive concepts. To notate or transcribe any > expression is just to notate the expression. To notate is not to illuminate > the thought process behind the expression. This is an area of philosophy or > psychology. But to notate or transcribe an expression imposes the transcriber's idea of what is important. Someone transcribing a piece for shakuhachi or didjeridoo in western notation (that is, almost entirely in terms of pitch and rhythm) would utterly miss the timbral subtleties that, to the performer, would be the point of the performance. - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:51:07 EDT From: XRedbirdxx@aol.com Subject: Re: Bach/Caine I had heard that the Bach project was to feature a classical choir of singers. Was this not the case at those shows? J - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 13:20:04 -0600 From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki (S) " Subject: notation (was artists and self-estimation) Bruce wrote: >Why do you believe that intervals are an irrelevant concept in world >musics? >The distance between 2 pitches can be assessed in any music. Bruce, Maybe not irrelevant, as you have said we can call a relationship between two pitches an interval but as Joseph Zitt pointed out, these types of concepts are sometimes not part of the mental framework which the musician is drawing upon. But he was more poiniant than I have been. >With regard to counterpoint, if there is more than one voice happening at >any given time then counterpoint exists... Any 2 or more voices or >instruments in >any culture exhibit this behavior, no? Yes, but a transcription of the "counterpoint" between the principal flutes in a Gagaku orchestra would be pretty messy. Gagaku is traditional court music of Japan and the flutes often play similar versions of the same melody but the intervals are often unrecognizable to a western ear. Here again our transcriptions in western notation are inadiquate to fully represent the music. Or, try your hand at the music of Evan Parker. How are you going to notate his sound? Maybe we don't even need to go that far in time. I mean, to me, a sizable part of the brilliance of John Coltrane or Albert Ayler is not in their counterpoint, compositional structure, harmonic scheme etc, but rather in the use of sound on their instrument. I believe notation would not help someone who had never heard their music to understand the power it contains. (of course this is opinionated) -- my point is that the entirety of their sound cannot be represented by notation. >There is a lot of music I >have not heard and I look forward to getting turned onto music that >challanges my sense of order and reality. This is one of my goals as well. well put. >To notate or transcribe any >expression is just to notate the expression. To notate is not to >illuminate the thought process behind the expression. No, but it does impose the thought process/(cultural value system?) behind the notation. >Is LMC the initials for Loren Mazzacane Conners in your question above? yes...sorry for the confusion. I've seen it abriviated a bit on the list. >His is the only music of the 3 mentioned composers that I have >heard. If you wanted to hear them check out list-member Jon Abbey's label erstwhile. I can try to describe their work but the example wasn't really that important anyway. Personally, I really like Kevin Drumm's ablum "Second," and the Mueller/Rowe/Sugimoto release on erstwhile deserves to be treated with a vocabulary that we don't really have. Matt Wirzbicki - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 21:14:38 +0200 From: "Marcin Gokieli" Subject: Odp: artists and self-estimation Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > My point was that people should not feel intimidated to say what they think > about music. Specialists might have more knowledge, but since they always > have an agenda (getting their paycheck, complying to the latest intellectual > fad, etc), a non-specialist who has escaped brainwash has something to > say that can be as relevant. I think that sincere discussion led by 'nonspecialist' (whatever that may mean - we seem to assume that this discussion is of that kind, despite the fact that 've got here on this list a nice bunch of musicians, and some people informed about 'modern thoeries') is much more informing then a 'speciaist' (ie professional - paid, which impliest the mentioned agendas etc.) debate that is supposed to be closed to the public and their efforts to formulate the views which one finds important. > Like everybody here, I have read a pile of crap written by alleged specialists > (Boulez, Adorno, etc). And what? How does what these "enlighted" intellectuals > once wrote stand now? How many PhDs do we need to be slightly less wrong that > these specialists? > Yes, there are some interesting ideas that they expressed, but this is hidden > under a pile of dogmatism and fadish attitude. BTW could you tell something on the Boulez's writings? I love his works (both as conductor and composer) and would be interesterd in what he writes. I do not hesitate to call Adorno's stuff bullshit - i cannot stop to think that the guy is crying THE WORLD DOES NOT LOOK LIKE HE WOULD LIKE IT TO LOOK, and being highly educated he writes books whose depth does not go far beyond an essay in a sunday newspaper, but are much lore lenghty and peretencious. 'Philosophy of the new music' is a horrible work. In judging Stravinsky, he does notr give any argument, nor even a sincere opinion why he finds that music such a horrible thing. Who is this guy to judge 'Rite of spring' or 'L'histoire du soldat'? His work looks so poor compared with Stravinsky's masterpieces... > Seriously, has anybody been able to get anything out of the new philosophical > babbling (except getting a diploma, and impress those who like to be > impressed)? > It should be clear by now that there is no known algorithm to decide if music > is good or bad. But a still fairly common approach, pretending reaching > objectivity, consists in using the latest fashion in ready-to-wear philosophy > (or critic theory) to "analyze" and rate a piece of art. Well the way i see it, the problem consist in the fact that the philsophical techniques became the end in these discussion: even perosnal opinions are not put forward. Adorno is still a great example: reading his books i had the impression that he did not want to say something on art but tried to create a theory that WOULD BE GREAT. But there are exceptions. See Wittgenstein diaries and the way he describes the world there. > Are you impressed by post modernism? Doesn't it make you feel like when > doctors during Middle Age were using Latin language to hide the vacuousness > of their discourse? > I know, being French, I should not spit in the soup... I agree. I don't find anything new there. > Confronted with the total failure of intellectual approaches to criticism, > I think that nobody should feel ashamed to say what they think without > being intimidated by "specialists" who most of the time have no clue (but > an agenda). Exactly. Marcin Gokieli marcingokieli@go2.pl <> Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress" - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 21:20:40 +0200 From: "Marcin Gokieli" Subject: Odp: artists and self-estimation Matthew W Wirzbicki (S) wrote: > This is just the problem. We don't have a set of terminology for some of > the musics which are now emerging and we have yet to discover a working > terminology for the musics of many of the world's cultures. Talking about > intervals and counterpoint is hardly helpful in a discussion of most musics. > We can write gamelan music or talk about the music in africa or even notate > that music, but the scope of understanding that our system of notation and > our cherished western music vocabulary offers does not begin to help us > understand how the music is heard by the people who make it...the people who > understand that musical language. Anybody who had tried tio record music knows that even the recording - digital, new 988 ASS technology - is always a seelction aand a recreation of a musical event. So what can we excpect form a description or notation? > I do think that analysis is extreemly interesting, but I'm not sure it's the > most effective tool to separate artistic success from failure. Well, that's right: and the ones who like it should write about the status of analytical truths or the rules of translation, not music. And if they do, analisys should serve the music. Marcin Gokieli marcingokieli@go2.pl <> Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress" - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #957 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com