From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #964 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Monday, June 12 2000 Volume 02 : Number 964 In this issue: - Re: Mujician Re: Mujician Re: Mimeo at Vandoeuvre Musique Action Festival Re: Pat Metheny's Aesthetic Re: Pat Metheny's Aesthetic Re: Pat Metheny's Aesthetic Re: Indian music (no zorn content) Noise, Water, Meat (sound sculpture) Re: Noise, Water, Meat (sound sculpture) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 21:48:50 EDT From: CuneiWay@aol.com Subject: Re: Mujician Alan Kayser wrote: >Another British group that has not >been mentioned is Mujician. Again, more improvised than free, their four >CDs on Cunieform are essential listening for anyone interested in this >type >of music. Consisting of Keith Tippett on piano, Paul Dunmall reeds, Tony >Levin drums, and Paul Rogers bass, each is also a leader on his own. The >recordings are all from live performances which are spontaneously composed. >Perhaps more traditional than the abstract AMM, they are nonetheless every >bit as challenging. Sadly, there are only four recordings over a period >of >about ten years. Tippett, Dunmall, and Rogers make use of their bandmates >on their solo recordings, which are also not to be missed. Alan, that's an interesting take on Mujician, as I *never* would've mentioned Mujician in the same breath as AMM, as I pretty much think of AMM's as *the* benchmark of non-idiomatic free-improv, whereas, Mujician have always seemed to me very much to be a "free jazz" band, building on the work of Ornette & (esp.) late period Coltrane/Impulse. Even their 1st album "The Journey", which is their least free-jazz-like, still doesn't remind me very much of the work of folks like AMM, S.M.E., or other non-jazz improvisers. But, I am glad you obviously like the music so much. I feel I should mention that Mujican only have four albums recorded because they wish to have only four albums recorded. The choice is theirs, and not due to lack of opportunities from us or other "outside" reasons. Steve/ Cuneiform Records - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 21:55:11 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Mujician On Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 09:48:50PM -0400, CuneiWay@aol.com wrote: > Alan, that's an interesting take on Mujician, as I *never* would've mentioned > Mujician in the same breath as AMM, as I pretty much think of AMM's as *the* > benchmark of non-idiomatic free-improv, whereas, Mujician have always seemed > to me very much to be a "free jazz" band, building on the work of Ornette & > (esp.) late period Coltrane/Impulse. Even their 1st album "The Journey", > which is their least free-jazz-like, still doesn't remind me very much of the > work of folks like AMM, S.M.E., or other non-jazz improvisers. But, I am glad > you obviously like the music so much. I find the term "non-idiomatic free-improv" curious. Would anyone doubt that the style of improvisation developed by AMM, Derek Bailey, et al over the past 30-some years is by now a pretty clearly identifiable idiom? - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:14:47 +0200 (CEST) From: Oger Subject: Re: Mimeo at Vandoeuvre Musique Action Festival Jon Abbey said: ><> > >are you serious? this was one of the most amateurish displays I've ever seen. >Settel is from Montreal, and he has some sort of software where he can >process the music of his collaborators live. based on the evidence of this >show, it's extremely primitive, and has about two different things he can do >with it. the real shame was that this was the only one of Le Quan Ninh's >concerts that I could make it to, and it was pretty much ruined by Settel. >plus, the only other time I've seen Ninh perform live, at Victo last year, he >also played with Settel, who was much better during the Victo set, so anyone >who saw that one can empathize with me. a musician friend of mine, who will >remain nameless, and who was very unhappy with his project in this festival, >leaned over to me during the Settel set and said "at least my project isn't >the worst thing here this week". Hi Jon, I know that many people don't/didn't like Zack Settel. And it's a long time since I stopped to wonder if I am serious or not :-) I don't know exactly what Zack Settel does now. (I just know he was recently in Africa). I saw him some years ago in a very good french group called "Kinobits" and he was doing some very good stuff. In Vandoeuvre, this year, I liked what he made. I agree with you that he is probably not creating a new kind/trend of music. And his live process treatment seems old style. But, nevertheless, in that festival, I liked the 1st piece played on the bass, and the 2nd one on the voice. Maybe because the complete lack of ego gave to this (their) performance a kind of freedom which is, after all, not so frequent. That's why I liked their show, for extra musical reasons, I agree, but sometimes human factors are important too. And I agree with you that there were other better concerts than this one (my list was not by order of importance, but by chronological order, and I omitted some other good concerts). More important, about this festival: I think Vandoeuvre Musique Action is one of the greatest event in Europe and maybe in the world. Don't call me a chauvinist :-) In fact, it would be very difficult to find musicians who have never played in Vandoeuvre in the last past years. But, even in that case, some concerts are not always meeting our expectations, (human factors ?) For instance the Quatuor Helios show, (a group where Le Quan Ninh plays), was not good. I couldn't believe it! They are some of my favorite musicians! I would strongly recommend to listen to their last CD (on the Vandoeuvre label). I think it is possible to buy it on the Verge website. I agree with your comments on the string quintet with Phil Durrant, Rhodri Davies, Ulrich Phillipp, Jurgen Krusche and Martine Altenburger. There was another good concert with Axel Dorner (I could'nt attend it). But I was told he played very well. I saw him twice the week before in Paris. One night playing modern jazz (yes indeed!), Charlie Haden's compositions and this kind of stuff, with a japonese bassist and a german bass clarinettist. The night after in a very great duo with bassist Ulrich Phillip. To finish with Vandoeuvre, apart from Mimeo, one of my favorite group this year was: Maxwells Damon (Ulrich Phillipp, Uwe Buhrdorf, Ulrich Bottcher) Jacques Oger NP: incredible stuff by Phillip Corner ("The judson days" recorded during the 60's) on the Alga Marghen italian label. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:35:50 +0000 From: Simon Hopkins Subject: Re: Pat Metheny's Aesthetic >I think Metheny wastes too many words on Kenny G. Bill, that's a disappointing response to the piece. I actually think it's one of the finer pieces of intelligent invective I've read in some time, and it's got my week off to a great start! But beyond the impressive anger, what's interesting is that Metheny's posting is barely about Kenny 'the necrophile' G at all but about the guitarist's own world view, being an impassioned commentary on, among other things... the general impoverishment of mainstream culture... the importance of musicians' respect for their inheritance... the role of (linguistic) dialogue *at all* in music... the disappointing lack of attention (from allegedly serious music critics) to things that really *do* matter... and the fact that the ultimate commentary on music is more music. This last point is VITAL and very reminiscent of Zorn's introduction to 'Arcana' (and, sadly, of very little else written of late). Check out these statements he makes: "...but, for what itıs worth, i can safely say that i personally have never read anything, good or bad, from anyone anywhere that has had any impact whatsoever on the actual musical issues that involve my most every waking minute..." "...so, anyway, the real job for me and other musicians out there that are trying to find the good notes, in fact, has nothing to do with talking, or with opinions; the real challenge is to try to make music that is the antidote to the disease, a symptom of which *might* be under discussion here..." That's a point Zorn has made over and over. Consider Cinema. Godard, Truffaut and the other 'Cahiers du Cinema' critics intrinsically understood that if you want to discuss film seriously, the only way to do it is to maks other films. Ultimately, everything else is journalism. So I was very impressed with Metheny's thoughts. They confirmed a long-held suspicion on my part that he's a much more serious musical thinker than many give him credit for. Simon simon hopkins a state51 rhoda street london e2 7ef t 00 44 (0)171 729 8493 sh is a member of the state51 conspiracy check out motion http://motion.state51.co.uk - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 06:58:28 -0700 From: "s~Z" Subject: Re: Pat Metheny's Aesthetic >>>But beyond the impressive anger, what's interesting is that Metheny's posting is barely about Kenny 'the necrophile' G at all but about the guitarist's own world view<<< Exactly. That is why I titled the post to the link, 'Pat Metheny's Aesthetic.' He is angry for very specific reasons based on his aesthetic. And, he is not ashamed to put his opinions out there with some passion. AND, he creates music, thus is not writing ivory tower opinions about it. I was very impressed, and I can't stand his music. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 14:28:30 GMT From: "Bill Ashline" Subject: Re: Pat Metheny's Aesthetic >From: Simon Hopkins > > >I think Metheny wastes too many words on Kenny G. > >Bill, that's a disappointing response to the piece. Sorry to disappoint you Simon. > >I actually think it's one of the finer pieces of intelligent invective I've >read in some time, and it's got my week off to a great start! I'm glad it did. But for me it was the usual sort of criticism one hears about KG and his ilk, which, though, obviously true, is too facile. Too easy a target. I've got a fair bit of Metheny on my shelves. Some of this kind of criticism could be sent his way too. > >But beyond the impressive anger, what's interesting is that Metheny's >posting is barely about Kenny 'the necrophile' G at all but about the >guitarist's own world view, being an impassioned commentary on, among other >things... the general impoverishment of mainstream culture... the >importance of musicians' respect for their inheritance... the role of >(linguistic) dialogue *at all* in music... the disappointing lack of >attention (from allegedly serious music critics) to things that really *do* >matter... and the fact that the ultimate commentary on music is more music. This is all good, but also fairly predictable. I'm glad to see Metheny articulating these positions. But if we're going to understand the impoverishment of mainstream culture, we're going to need more than music to help us, and that's where dialogue/writing as a preliminary to action will be necessary. Some of Metheny's comments about musical inheritance sounded a bit too romantic, religious and snobby for my taste, just as the invective sort of rang like a parliamentary hearing. >This last point is VITAL and very reminiscent of Zorn's introduction to >'Arcana' (and, sadly, of very little else written of late). Check out these >statements he makes: > >"...but, for what itıs worth, i can safely say that i personally have never >read anything, good or bad, from anyone anywhere that has had any impact >whatsoever on the actual musical issues that involve my most every waking >minute..." I wonder what he's read. You know I'm sure the Mille Plateaux crew in Germany might have a very different take on this matter. Though I'm sure that for him this matter is true. >"...so, anyway, the real job for me and other musicians out there that are >trying to find the good notes, in fact, has nothing to do with talking, or >with opinions; the real challenge is to try to make music that is the >antidote to the disease, a symptom of which *might* be under discussion >here..." Interesting idea. Music as the positive source of affective transformation. I think the idea is very true. One recalls one's experiences in music and one considers the manner in which their reception/understanding of culture and society is transformed. It can happen in music and it can happen in other places as well. >That's a point Zorn has made over and over. Consider Cinema. Godard, >Truffaut and the other 'Cahiers du Cinema' critics intrinsically understood >that if you want to discuss film seriously, the only way to do it is to >maks other films. Ultimately, everything else is journalism. Hmm. Perhaps Zorn is no longer satisfied with this approach, which is why he put out the book. One can argue that discourse about the arts is in some ways inauthentic in comparison to the real, etc. In literary studies, you know, some writers like to say that critics are parasitical on their work. We always respond that they're parasitical on our attention spans. The whole thing I think works on exchange. Musicians, artists, writers, etc. need audiences and apparently we need them as well. But none of us can live very well without intellectual life either, I'm afraid. A lot of our ideas about culture, even if they're ideas that reject the idea that ideas about culture are important, still have a theoretical history, if one bothers to spend the time looking. As far as film goes, there's a lot that's been written that's been quite significant and that I wouldn't reduce to journalism. And it's good to see that filmmakers like Trinh T. Minh-ha are keeping up with the literature and engaging it and not trying to take a purist stance about art. And regarding art, it needn't be said how much recent intellectual developments are impacting the production of art works and how seminal and positive that interaction can be. Zorn of course reads a lot of theoretical stuff as well, as a number of the better musicians have. I particularly liked his reference to Artaud's take on Van Gogh in the introduction as well, when describing the condition of the modern musician. But I think the Arcana book though is a bit too idiosyncratic to do much good. Some of the material is strong; much of it fits poorly with the rest. Stephen Drury's essay isn't bad but his basic theses are fairly naive. BTW, I like the Motion reviews and read them frequently. I find them "affirmative." BA "...it is a source of great surprise and disappointment to me that after more than twenty years of music-making on the New York scene...not one single writer has ever come forward to champion or even to intelligently analyze exactly what it is that we have been doing. Indeed, they hardly seem able even to describe it."--John Zorn "Improvising musicians create a genuine Deleuzian assemblage, a musical machine of desire--not binary nor unitary but multiple."--John Corbett ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:44:53 CDT From: "samuel yrui" Subject: Re: Indian music (no zorn content) I have heard quite a few tracks from it and though i haven't seen the book i'm buying it this week. if you put some time into it, the box set should help you be able to gain a better feel for what the differences are between different ragas. i can now identify some of them by ear with the introductory scale. i highly recommend it. it might seem boring at first but if you buy it in interest of studying indian music it will be highly beneficial, and probably serve to unlock a lot of things about the music to you, making the music in general a lot less boring. i think it's a very rewarding box. -samuel I was thinking about buying the recent cd box set "The Raga Guide" and am wondering if any listers have any exposure to it. I am concerned that four discs of the same artists playing short ragas without the usual extented performances would be boring. I'm a fan of indian raga, but don't know my tala from my alapa, so I'm interested in the book. But how is the listening for a semi-experienced Indian classical listener? ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:52:43 CDT From: "Kristopher S. Handley" Subject: Noise, Water, Meat (sound sculpture) The recent short thread on the sound-design and installation exhibit in London (?), along with the State51 coverage, reminded me of this book, which I have not read. Perhaps it would be of interest to some of you. If anyone's read it, feedback would be appreciated. (No pun intended.) The link leads to a Table of Contents: http://mitpress.mit.edu/book-home.tcl?isbn=0262112434 Noise, Water, Meat A History of Voice, Sound, and Aurality in the Arts by Douglas Kahn "The dual task here is to listen through history to sound and through sound to history." This interdisciplinary history and theory of sound in the arts reads the twentieth century by listening to it--to the emphatic and exceptional sounds of modernism and those on the cusp of postmodernism, recorded sound, noise, silence, the fluid sounds of immersion and dripping, and the meat voices of viruses, screams, and bestial cries. Focusing on Europe in the first half of the century and the United States in the postwar years, Douglas Kahn explores aural activities in literature, music, visual arts, theater, and film. Placing aurality at the center of the history of the arts, he revisits key artistic questions, listening to the sounds that drown out the politics and poetics that generated them. Artists discussed include Antonin Artaud, George Brecht, William Burroughs, John Cage, Sergei Eisenstein, Fluxus, Allan Kaprow, Michael McClure, Yoko Ono, Jackson Pollock, Luigi Russolo, and Dziga Vertov. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:04:05 -0400 From: wlt4@mindspring.com Subject: Re: Noise, Water, Meat (sound sculpture) > If anyone's read it, feedback would be appreciated. (No pun I'm about a quarter of the way into it and have been disappointed so far but I suspect that there's just too much introductory blather (& standard-issue acadmic prose) since it's already started to improve now that he's covering more factual/historical material. I'll post a review on my site eventually. LT - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #964 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com