From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #25 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Friday, August 25 2000 Volume 03 : Number 025 In this issue: - Re: DSP/electronic references Re: Re: Tzadik (was: sponsoring) Re: Tzadik (was: sponsoring) Re: DSP/ electronic references Re: Tzadik (was: sponsoring) Re: DSP/ electronic references Re: Re: Tzadik (was: sponsoring) Re: Tzadik (was: sponsoring) Re: Tzadik /other labels Re: Tzadik /other labels Re: Tzadik /other labels Re: Tzadik (was: sponsoring) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 13:36:00 GMT From: "Glenn Ianaro" Subject: Re: DSP/electronic references I dont' know if my original post got through yet, but Csound does run in realtime, and it runs best in realtime on a PC. It runs very well, but is COMPLETELY dependant on the speed of your processor. I am running realtime csound on a PII 400 and it is pretty good, on a PIII 1Ghz wow...it is great. Again, it isn't the regular version os Csound that runs like this, but a special DirectX version by Gabrial Maldanado. It is essentially the same, but optimized for realtime throughput and extra opcodes for better realtime control. It is really worth checking out. I'll be putting up some music on the web for all to hear soon. Glenn - ------------- > >Herb levy wrote: > > Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 15:51:22 -0500 > > From: Herb Levy > > Subject: Re: DSP/ electronic references > > > progressive, to me at least. (I don't think I've heard anyone using > > Csound, which is a very cool program, live; though I could certainly > > be wrong on that - & I'd like to hear the work.) > >there isn't a realtime version of Csound yet, although i hear there is one >in the works. as for the progressiveness - i've played with a lot of >programs for the intel PC, and while some of them allow one to make >'progressive' noises, they don't do it in real time. the real time >software iv'e played with is very loop based (i.e., dance or club or acid >or whatever). it basically sounds like the people making the programs >aren't into the kind of music we (or some of us) are into, and so don't >think of the possibilities. it also is a pain to program windows, >which is why i work in linux... (sombody else on the list mentioned some >other programs, which i haven't explored, so mayber there is something out >there for PC users...) > >whit > > > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 09:40:16 -0400 From: WLT4@mindspring.com Subject: Re: Re: Tzadik (was: sponsoring) >The radio station where I'm MD receives tons of Tzadik releases I've heard Tzadik sends promos to about a dozen stations. I know WREK (Atlanta) receives them and would be almost certain that WFMU does as well. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 10:20:16 -0500 From: Steve Smith Subject: Re: Tzadik (was: sponsoring) Jesse Kudler wrote: > > Because of their tight budget, Tzadik doesn't do press releases, promos, > or > > ads. I guess the quality of recordings is good enough that they're sought > > out. > > Where did you hear that? That's actually not true. The radio station where > I'm MD receives tons of Tzadik releases (and I thank them for it). As Lang Thompson pointed out, there is a list of some 12-15 radio stations that get comprehesive service from Tzadik. > And I'm > almost positive I've seen a Tzadik ad (though it could have been for Avant). > The one that has the logo and a long list of all the musicians. I remember this as well, although it only ever happened once. > I wouldn't > know about press releases, but the blurbs on the webpage certainly read like > them. And you'd figure if someone bothers to write them, they'd send them > out. . . No. They are written for Koch International's new release books, the tools with which the sales reps for the distributor convince the stores to stock the CDs. There are no press releases because there are no press mailings, unless the individual artist undertakes one him- or herself. > I don't understand people's continued insistence that Zorn/Tzadik is so DIY > and poor. Zorn does very well, I'm sure, and I wouldn't call an indie label > that can afford to give $5000 recording advances and fancy artwork on a > "tight budget." $5,000 isn't that much money for a recording. And while Zorn's presumably comfortable, please remember that Tzadik is run as a non-profit organization - Zorn makes a little, Kazunori makes a little, the art director makes a little, but most of the money goes straight back into funding new recordings. > Tzadik's success is due in a large part to savvy marketing, > plain and simple. It's no accident that the records have a uniform art > theme, come in easily-grouped series, and are strongly identified with Zorn > (if I'm not mistaken, he's listed as "executive producer" for all releases). I tend to view the groupings into series as less a savvy marketing ploy and more a reflection of Zorn's compartmentalization of the various genres that interest him. I haven't ever seen his legendary collection, but I know I separate my collection by genre. > There's plenty of labels that release great music but don't have their > records "sought out." Unfortunately, marketing has quite a bit to do with > it, and Tzadik has done that well. I think it's less marketing, more cult of personality and a general willingness on our part to trust what Zorn's promoting and vote with our dollars. "Marketing" suggests the expenditure of time and often money to concoct ways of selling things to people. My sense of Tzadik is more of a guy with some money and a lot of ideas sitting around thinking, "Wouldn't it be cool to have THAT on my shelf?" and then substituting the word "label" for "shelf"... Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 08:26:41 -0700 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: DSP/ electronic references On Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:14:00 -0400 "Jesse Kudler" wrote: > > I can't really think of too many improvisers specifically using sine waves > that were mentioned. Sachiko M uses a sine wave sampler, as mentioned. And > various lap-toppers throw them in too. There's also a bunch of rock bands > with sine-wave oscillators in their setups. Simeon's setup in the Silver > Apples was basically a lot of sine-wave oscillators working together, and I > know Pelt uses one. There's plenty of academic/"serious" people using them > too. Lamonte Young's uses them in all the pieces where he sings with sine > waves, causing beating effects (rhythmic cancellation of the sound by out-of > phase sine waves). And Alvin Lucier uses them in various pieces that > involve beating as well, although I can't think of which ones would be well > known and/or on record. And let's not forget the grandfathers of electroacoustic music: the Koln school (Herbert Heimer, Stockhausen). If I remember well, Stockhausen's STUDY I is for sinusoids. Although, of course, the motivations in the early 50s were quite different (sinusoids were not a choice since it was almost the only kind of periodic signal available at that time :-). Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 08:31:07 -0700 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Tzadik (was: sponsoring) On Thu, 24 Aug 2000 19:52:22 -0400 "Alan Lankin" wrote: > > Because of their tight budget, Tzadik doesn't do press releases, promos, or > ads. I guess the quality of recordings is good enough that they're sought > out. I think that there is another reason: they do not believe in the value of promos (you know, the hundreds of records that you mail and which are barely responsible for a handful of sale...). Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 12:58:55 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: DSP/ electronic references On Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 08:26:41AM -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > And let's not forget the grandfathers of electroacoustic music: the Koln school > (Herbert Heimer, Stockhausen). If I remember well, Stockhausen's STUDY I is for > sinusoids. Although, of course, the motivations in the early 50s were quite > different (sinusoids were not a choice since it was almost the only kind of > periodic signal available at that time :-). Until I remembered what the word meant, my first thought was that sinusoids could make sneezing quite painful :-) - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 15:29:04 -0400 From: "Jesse Kudler" Subject: Re: Re: Tzadik (was: sponsoring) Hmmm. . I guess we should feel honored then. The station is WESU in Middletown, CT by the way. - -Jesse - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Zorn-List" Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 9:40 AM Subject: Re: Re: Tzadik (was: sponsoring) > >The radio station where I'm MD receives tons of Tzadik releases > > I've heard Tzadik sends promos to about a dozen stations. I know WREK (Atlanta) receives them and would be almost certain that WFMU does as well. > > - > > - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 15:44:56 -0400 From: "Jesse Kudler" Subject: Re: Tzadik (was: sponsoring) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Smith" > $5,000 isn't that much money for a recording. And while Zorn's presumably > comfortable, please remember that Tzadik is run as a non-profit organization - > Zorn makes a little, Kazunori makes a little, the art director makes a little, > but most of the money goes straight back into funding new recordings. Yeah, $5000 isn't that much for a good recording studio, but I'd guess that most labels I like can't afford to give *any* recording advances. $5000 is certainly enough to demonstrate that Tzadik isn't operating hand-to-mouth. Tzadik is non-profit? I didn't know that. I knew about Hips Road (Zorn's non-profit org.), but I wasn't aware that Tzadik was part of that. > I tend to view the groupings into series as less a savvy marketing ploy and > more a reflection of Zorn's compartmentalization of the various genres that > interest him. I haven't ever seen his legendary collection, but I know I > separate my collection by genre. Well, I don't, but that's irrelevant I guess. I tend to view the series as marketing because some records *really* seem squeezed into having identities that they don't in order to fit say, the Radical Jewish Culture series. I'm not of the opinion that any Jewish person making music is partaking in "Radical Jewish Culture." And didn't someone once post an anecdote to this list about talking to a Tzadik artist who said that they really didn't see whey their record was part of that series? Besides marketing? > I think it's less marketing, more cult of personality and a general willingness > on our part to trust what Zorn's promoting and vote with our dollars. Well, yeah, but I think establishing that cult of personality and tying it to the label so much *is* marketing. Cf. the executive producer credits. > "Marketing" suggests the expenditure of time and often money to concoct ways of > selling things to people. My sense of Tzadik is more of a guy with some money > and a lot of ideas sitting around thinking, "Wouldn't it be cool to have THAT > on my shelf?" and then substituting the word "label" for "shelf"... Perhaps. I was just annoyed by this idea that Tzadik is in any way struggling or that it's strictly a money-losing labor of love. If you like the records, of course you should buy them, but I don't think buying a record on Tzadik is really supporting a tiny little indie who puts out music without eyes on financial gain. Nothing wrong with that necessarily, but that's the way it is. And if you really want to vote with your dollars, there's tons of one-man bedroom labels who are releasing, in my mind, much more radical music than Tzadik is. And I do think Zorn's expenditure of time on that Tower avant-garde section amounts to marketing when it means that all Tzadik titles are in their own sperate section. - -Jesse - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 15:50:35 EDT From: OnionPalac@aol.com Subject: Re: Tzadik /other labels In a message dated 8/25/00 3:44:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jkudler@mail.wesleyan.edu writes: << there's tons of one-man bedroom labels who are releasing, in my mind, much more radical music than Tzadik is. >> Such as? - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 15:13:38 -0500 From: Matthew Ross Davis Subject: Re: Tzadik /other labels On Fri, Aug 25, 2000, wrote: >In a message dated 8/25/00 3:44:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >jkudler@mail.wesleyan.edu writes: ><< there's tons of one-man bedroom labels who are releasing, in my mind, much > more radical music than Tzadik is. >> > >Such as? Metatron Press BoxMedia Pogus Einstein Periplum Deep Listening Just to name a few off the top of my head. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | m - a - t - t - h - e - w | r - o - s - s | d - a - v - i - s | | | | http://www.artswire.org/mrd | | | | http://www.mp3.com/craque | | | | http://www.metatronpress.com | | http://www.mp3.com/graycode | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 16:13:56 EDT From: JonAbbey2@aol.com Subject: Re: Tzadik /other labels In a message dated 8/25/00 3:53:18 PM, OnionPalac@aol.com writes: << << there's tons of one-man bedroom labels who are releasing, in my mind, much more radical music than Tzadik is. >> Such as? >> this question wasn't directed to me, but here's my quickly compiled list: Paradigm Alga Marghen Durian Trente Oiseaux For 4 Ears Grob Mego Matchless Corpus Hermeticum Amoebic Utterpsalm Touch Sound@One Metonymic Charhizma Perdition Plastics Alcohol Bruce's Fingers Acta Sonoris Selektion Digital Narcis Pogus Jon www.erstwhilerecords.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 16:31:45 -0500 From: Steve Smith Subject: Re: Tzadik (was: sponsoring) Jesse Kudler wrote: > I tend to view the series as > marketing because some records *really* seem squeezed into having identities > that they don't in order to fit say, the Radical Jewish Culture series. I'm > not of the opinion that any Jewish person making music is partaking in > "Radical Jewish Culture." And didn't someone once post an anecdote to this > list about talking to a Tzadik artist who said that they really didn't see > whey their record was part of that series? Besides marketing? Your point is well-taken, but I disagree in principle and I think Zorn would be highly offended. Many of the artists may not necessarily see their day-to-day work as being part of a "Radical Jewish Culture" continuum, but Zorn's explicit point in the series is to prod his fellow Jewish artists to deliberately assess their Jewish background. Marty Ehrlich and Erik Friedlander have both told me that they weren't clear at first on the mandate or whether they belonged in such a series, but each of them found something unique to address based on Zorn's request. Steven Bernstein had to be provoked into making a contribution, but 'Diaspora Soul' was the result, a true winnner in the series. Neither Lee Konitz nor Steve Lacy, two well-established jazz icons, had ever given much thought to their heritage but were quick to respond to Zorn's mandate. And Jamie Saft's 'Solvanut' is an even-more radically divergent recording that clearly addresses aspects of Judaism from an intensely personal (and even specifically geographically Brooklyn-centric) perspective. Nor does Zorn seem to be expressing the opinion that any Jewish person making music is part of the "Radical Jewish Culture" series, either. Right now I'm listening to the new Ned Rothenburg CD, which is part of the Composers Series and features lots of shakuhachi, pipa and cello. Mark Dresser and Guy Klucevsek have been part of the Composers Series as well. The Radical Jewish Culture series is more explicitly about provoking artistic response in a specific way, and I don't see it as a simple marketing ploy the way the Knitting Factory's crass cash-in series "Jewish Alternative Movement" clearly is. > Well, yeah, but I think establishing that cult of personality and tying it > to the label so much *is* marketing. Cf. the executive producer credits. Establishing the cult of personality is not something Zorn set out to do, it just happened because he is who he is and acts the way he does. But using it as a tool could indeed be labelled "marketing" - that's a point I'm willing to concede. When I was working at Koch a the time that Tzadik was first launched, we regularly commented upon the fact that the records on Tzadik were guaranteed to sell more than similar records we had on similar labels, just because Zorn's name is attached. So yes, I'll agree that that could be construed as a marketing ploy, but at least it's an altruistic one. Personally I buy virtually everything on Tzadik as an act of blind faith in Zorn's ability to steer me towards provocative music. Sure I've been burned, but the good has largely outweighed the bad or iffy. I don't do it because I'm on a mission to support the label. > I was just annoyed by this idea that Tzadik is in any way > struggling or that it's strictly a money-losing labor of love. If you like > the records, of course you should buy them, but I don't think buying a > record on Tzadik is really supporting a tiny little indie who puts out music > without eyes on financial gain. You're correct again, but given the non-profit structure, you can at least be fairly certain that your dollars are being funnelled directly into the promulgation of more such music, and that the label is not going to disappear or do a radical about-face to find more commerically-viable music to shore up the bottom line or put more cash in Zorn's pocket or up his nose. > And if you really want to vote with your dollars, > there's tons of one-man bedroom labels who are releasing, in my mind, much > more radical music than Tzadik is. Yes. At least three of them are frequent flyers on this here list (Jon, Patrice and Herb), and perhaps there are others I'm missing even among present company. (Steve Feigenbaum has surely transcended that status by now, but even he is just above the break-even point as he's just told us, so it's just as much a labor of love for him.) > And I do think Zorn's expenditure of time on that Tower avant-garde section > amounts to marketing when it means that all Tzadik titles are in their own > sperate section. On this subject there's really no debate. It's clearly the most straightforward and clearcut example of marketing in which the label has ever engaged. And whatever the supposed altruism of Zorn's effort, it does in fact give the records on his labels increased exposure rather than ignominious invisibility. I don't really disagree with anything you said, in other words, except for the bit about "Radical Jewish Culture," an argument aired on this list before and most likely a continuing debate. But I do think that Zorn's efforts have mainly been fairly elegant and appropriate to the level of the music. And perhaps, just perhaps, the success of Tzadik opens doors for some of the other genuinely struggling bedroom operations of which you speak. Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com NP - Ned Rothenberg, "Duet for Alto Saxophone and Percussion," 'Ghost Stories' (Tzadik) P.S. Add me to the list of folks who are loving the new 'Big Gundown' reissue and those terrific bonus tracks. The track with Bailey is killin'. P.P.S. Kurt Gottschalk, drop me a private line, please. - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #25 ****************************** To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. 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